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Poll
Question: How much do you spend in spiritual practice, such as worship, prayer, and meditation EACH DAY?
Only on Sundays, before bed time, and at random occurances - 1 (5.9%)
On 3-5 days throughout the week I devote some time - 4 (23.5%)
Every day no matter what - 7 (41.2%)
I start the day by spending at least 10 minutes in spiritual practice and end the day in the same way - 3 (17.6%)
My life is spirituality- I pray at least 5 times per day with each session being at least 10 minutes - 2 (11.8%)
Total Voters: 17

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« Reply #45 on: May 04, 2012, 02:19:51 PM »

"The false self"...no wonder you renounce Christianity. I do wish you'd stop trying to make your denial seem to be about a lack of fidelity to externals if you're going to be peddling your neo-Gnostic dualism around here. It is terribly inconsistent.
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« Reply #46 on: May 04, 2012, 02:23:11 PM »

I had a lunch, coffee and 4 hours long theological discussion today with a confessional Lutheran priest where I tried explain Orthodox point of views for various issues. Does it count as "a spiritual practice"? angel
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« Reply #47 on: May 04, 2012, 02:29:12 PM »

I had a lunch, coffee and 4 hours long theological discussion today with a confessional Lutheran priest where I tried explain Orthodox point of views for various issues. Does it count as "a spiritual practice"? angel
If you benefited from it, I would say so  Smiley
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« Reply #48 on: May 04, 2012, 02:40:40 PM »

I had a lunch, coffee and 4 hours long theological discussion today with a confessional Lutheran priest where I tried explain Orthodox point of views for various issues. Does it count as "a spiritual practice"? angel
If you benefited from it, I would say so  Smiley

Nope.
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« Reply #49 on: May 04, 2012, 02:48:59 PM »

I had a lunch, coffee and 4 hours long theological discussion today with a confessional Lutheran priest where I tried explain Orthodox point of views for various issues. Does it count as "a spiritual practice"? angel
If you benefited from it, I would say so  Smiley

Well the cup of coffee was nice since I hadn't had any before that. Also, the pastor's and his matushkas puppy was cute! It's always beneficial to play with cute puppies.
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« Reply #50 on: May 04, 2012, 02:51:26 PM »

Quote
How much do you spend in spiritual practice, such as worship, prayer, and meditation EACH DAY?

That depends on where I'm at in life.  Right now, probably about 2-3 hours per day.  One hour in the morning, one after work, and sometimes one before bed.
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« Reply #51 on: May 04, 2012, 03:00:42 PM »

I had a lunch, coffee and 4 hours long theological discussion today with a confessional Lutheran priest where I tried explain Orthodox point of views for various issues. Does it count as "a spiritual practice"? angel
If you benefited from it, I would say so  Smiley

Nope.

Why not. Read the Desert Fathers, there are countless stories about monks and laymen who benefitted greatly from theological discussions.
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« Reply #52 on: May 04, 2012, 03:28:04 PM »

We pray without ceasing because the spiritual struggle is never-ending until death.

Thank you for this.  Smiley
1 Thessolonians 5:17 - Pray without ceasing.

Unfortunately, I do cease in prayer.  My mind, heart, and emotions very often reflect on God.  Perhaps without being able to describe, I often feel like I'm emotionally praying to God without words?? if that makes sense... With that included, many hours a day.

With words alone, including before meals, and reading the bible, its hard to put an actual number but probably an hour or so...

Prayer is not just words, but a state. One can be in a state without words and speak words without being in a proper state.
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« Reply #53 on: May 04, 2012, 03:31:24 PM »

Only the heathens cuss. I'm glad I'm not one of them!

So, dear brother, how much time do you spend in prayer, how rigorously do you fast, how much do you give to charity, and what do you do to guard your eyes and ears from evil on a daily basis? Being among the righteous, I'd be interested in hearing what you do to consider yourself as such.

If only all that were righteousness. Then the spiritual life would be easy.
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« Reply #54 on: May 04, 2012, 03:38:37 PM »

The condemned Pharisee prayed a lot longer than the Publican who was approved by God. 
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« Reply #55 on: May 04, 2012, 04:21:34 PM »

The condemned Pharisee prayed a lot longer than the Publican who was approved by God. 

amen!
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« Reply #56 on: May 04, 2012, 04:22:36 PM »

The condemned Pharisee prayed a lot longer than the Publican who was approved by God. 

Bazinga!
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« Reply #57 on: May 04, 2012, 04:47:52 PM »

The condemned Pharisee prayed a lot longer than the Publican ...

... in public.

You don't know who really prayed longer before God.  For all you know, the Publican prayed a lot longer than the Pharisee, but he did it in private.  In fact, I'd even say that is likely.  But only God knows.
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« Reply #58 on: May 04, 2012, 06:32:21 PM »

Quote
How much do you spend in spiritual practice, such as worship, prayer, and meditation EACH DAY?

That depends on where I'm at in life.  Right now, probably about 2-3 hours per day.  One hour in the morning, one after work, and sometimes one before bed.

Acts420, do these "meditation" sessions include 420? This seems a bit suspicious...
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« Reply #59 on: May 04, 2012, 06:34:31 PM »

The condemned Pharisee prayed a lot longer than the Publican ...

... in public.

You don't know who really prayed longer before God.  For all you know, the Publican prayed a lot longer than the Pharisee, but he did it in private.  In fact, I'd even say that is likely.  But only God knows.

Act420 doing it again.

It is clear teaching that we don't know anything about the Publican. Did he repent, curse God later, etc.

We just know what occurred when Christ taught and the direct and obvious point he was making.

Acts420, whether I agree with you or not about whatever you say around here. You are a thoughtful and careful reader.

It will serve you well.
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« Reply #60 on: May 04, 2012, 08:25:41 PM »

Quote
How much do you spend in spiritual practice, such as worship, prayer, and meditation EACH DAY?

That depends on where I'm at in life.  Right now, probably about 2-3 hours per day.  One hour in the morning, one after work, and sometimes one before bed.

Acts420, do these "meditation" sessions include 420? This seems a bit suspicious...

If by 420 you mean kanehbosm, I do burn kanehbosm as incense as part of my morning prayer time.  As with any incense, I do inhale a slight amount of it (probably less than you see many priests inhale of their incense at the altar).  Sometimes I anoint myself with oil that has kanehbosm in it, according to the recipe from the book of Exodus. 

I don't typically burn kanehbosm as part of my afternoon or evening prayer time. 

If the amount of time seems suspicious, please know I don't always spend as much time in prayer, worship, and meditation as I do at this point in my life.  The type of work I do comes in fits and starts, and lately there has been a (much needed) lull in the work flow, thank the Lord God.  At other times in my life I barely have time for 30 minutes of prayer and worship in the morning.

peace,
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« Reply #61 on: May 04, 2012, 08:26:51 PM »

The condemned Pharisee prayed a lot longer than the Publican ...

... in public.

You don't know who really prayed longer before God.  For all you know, the Publican prayed a lot longer than the Pharisee, but he did it in private.  In fact, I'd even say that is likely.  But only God knows.

Act420 doing it again.

It is clear teaching that we don't know anything about the Publican. Did he repent, curse God later, etc.

We just know what occurred when Christ taught and the direct and obvious point he was making.

Acts420, whether I agree with you or not about whatever you say around here. You are a thoughtful and careful reader.

It will serve you well.

Thanks orthonorm for the kind words.  My Father taught me well.
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« Reply #62 on: May 04, 2012, 09:34:12 PM »

The condemned Pharisee prayed a lot longer than the Publican ...

... in public.

You don't know who really prayed longer before God.  For all you know, the Publican prayed a lot longer than the Pharisee, but he did it in private.  In fact, I'd even say that is likely.  But only God knows.

I would say that the Pharisee didn't have a contrite heart, was consequently unheard by God, and therefore did not pray at all.
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« Reply #63 on: May 04, 2012, 09:44:04 PM »

The condemned Pharisee prayed a lot longer than the Publican ...

... in public.

You don't know who really prayed longer before God.  For all you know, the Publican prayed a lot longer than the Pharisee, but he did it in private.  In fact, I'd even say that is likely.  But only God knows.

eh?
they went both to the Temple to pray, privacy was not the issue here. as to the longer prayer , indeed we can see that the pharisee prayed longer listing all his virtues, and with a selfrighteous spirit comparing himself with the publican he saw with contempt. but the publican's prayer was short and we are told By The LORD what they each prayed , so yes God has told us what they have said when they prayed. you can see which was longer. the Publican presented himself before God with humility, the other stood up with pride before God and declared his righteousness. the lesson of the story was not about praying in public, we are only told the prideful positioning of themselves in relative to the inside of the Temple and each other. they were not declaring their prayer to the public, but to God and the One who heard judged them according to the humility of their heart.

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« Reply #64 on: May 04, 2012, 09:50:58 PM »

9He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: 10“Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayeda thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ 13But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ 14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”
Luke 18:9-14

you can get the reason why this parable was told at # 9 and  14 , humility THE QUEEN OF VIRTUES.
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« Reply #65 on: May 04, 2012, 10:12:12 PM »

The condemned Pharisee prayed a lot longer than the Publican ...

... in public.

You don't know who really prayed longer before God.  For all you know, the Publican prayed a lot longer than the Pharisee, but he did it in private.  In fact, I'd even say that is likely.  But only God knows.

eh?
they went both to the Temple to pray, privacy was not the issue here. as to the longer prayer , indeed we can see that the pharisee prayed longer listing all his virtues, and with a selfrighteous spirit comparing himself with the publican he saw with contempt. but the publican's prayer was short and we are told By The LORD what they each prayed , so yes God has told us what they have said when they prayed. you can see which was longer. the Publican presented himself before God with humility, the other stood up with pride before God and declared his righteousness. the lesson of the story was not about praying in public, we are only told the prideful positioning of themselves in relative to the inside of the Temple and each other. they were not declaring their prayer to the public, but to God and the One who heard judged them according to the humility of their heart.

We don't know who prayed longer *during the entire day*.  We don't know who spent more time in prayer during the day.  That's my point.   Of the Pharisees, Christ said "they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.  But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."

The publican's *public* prayer was short.  However, if he was obedient to God then his public prayers were not his only prayers that day.

I agree with you though that humility is the point of the story.  The fact remains, though, that only God knows who really prayed longer before God *that day*.  For all you know, the Publican prayed a lot longer than the Pharisee, but he did it later, in private.  In fact, I'd even say that is likely given that he was justified, and private prayers are characteristics of the godly.  

But only God knows.
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« Reply #66 on: May 04, 2012, 10:28:57 PM »

The condemned Pharisee prayed a lot longer than the Publican ...

... in public.

You don't know who really prayed longer before God.  For all you know, the Publican prayed a lot longer than the Pharisee, but he did it in private.  In fact, I'd even say that is likely.  But only God knows.

eh?
they went both to the Temple to pray, privacy was not the issue here. as to the longer prayer , indeed we can see that the pharisee prayed longer listing all his virtues, and with a selfrighteous spirit comparing himself with the publican he saw with contempt. but the publican's prayer was short and we are told By The LORD what they each prayed , so yes God has told us what they have said when they prayed. you can see which was longer. the Publican presented himself before God with humility, the other stood up with pride before God and declared his righteousness. the lesson of the story was not about praying in public, we are only told the prideful positioning of themselves in relative to the inside of the Temple and each other. they were not declaring their prayer to the public, but to God and the One who heard judged them according to the humility of their heart.

We don't know who prayed longer *during the entire day*.  We don't know who spent more time in prayer during the day.  That's my point.   Of the Pharisees, Christ said "they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.  But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."

The publican's *public* prayer was short.  However, if he was obedient to God then his public prayers were not his only prayers that day.

I agree with you though that humility is the point of the story.  The fact remains, though, that only God knows who really prayed longer before God *that day*.  For all you know, the Publican prayed a lot longer than the Pharisee, but he did it later, in private.  In fact, I'd even say that is likely given that he was justified, and private prayers are characteristics of the godly.  

But only God knows.

we were referring to the particular parable, the length of the prayer as well as the essence of the said prayer.

and the point I am not comfortable with is, the subtle assumption that the event of that day could have been based on previous events such as their previous prayers. suppose that the publican came and prayed just that day? like the robber on the cross. look at the abundant grace given to a single utterance of a heartfelt humble prayer... we must not lose sight of that, and assume that there must have been a prior long or short consistent prayer etc. so why assume it? why not stick to the parable itself? it is simply possible to say that based on that day's prayer alone and how they prayed it, they were both judged, and that would hold profound lesson in it. in any case it is easy to lose or gain with what comes out of  the fullness of ones heart, at any time in ones life.
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« Reply #67 on: May 04, 2012, 10:38:46 PM »

Does posting here count?
Lol, that was my first thought too.

Prayer in the morning about a minute for myself and then about 10 to 15 minutes of prayer and Bible with my children. on the way to school/work. After I get to work a couple minutes of prayer.

At noon most workdays 30 minutes of prayer and reading the Fathers.

Before I leave work in the evening a couple minutes of prayer time.

In the evening about 30 minutes of prayer Bible reading and lives of the Saints with my family.

Another short prayer by my self at bedtime.

Working at being more consistant about praying before supper.

And periodic random prayer throughout the day.

Also I periodically sing Orthodox songs when they pop into my head, and usually play Orthodox internet radio in the background when I'm not interviewing someone at work.

Also I do make it a point to pray at least once for all the prayer requests I come across here or on facebook, and in prayer chain e-mails I get from a group I'm in. Some of the internet based requests I do intergrate into the rest of my prayers as well.

On weekends I tend to slack off a bit on everything but the evening prayers and the internet based stuff.

We go to Divine Liturgy every Sunday and Sat. Vespers every other week. But then we live just over an hour away from our Church.

This gives me hope in Christianity. Thank you for posting this as an exemplar lifestyle. The thing about "closing your door and praying in secret so that no one knows what you are doing" has been horrifically misinterpreted by the pathetic masses. Yashua was intentionally overstating the point to get his message across about the pharisees who pompously prayed with 20 ft. long robes on the street side. In actuality, he also said to let your light shine in the world so that everyone can see your deeds and praise God. It's time for Christians to come out of their closets and stop being cowards about prayer. Everyone should pray in front of the world for all to see. Thank you for being righteous.

Wow, while I would like to claim to be exemplar, I am only too well aware of my own shortcomings and as noted below...

Prayer is not just words, but a state. One can be in a state without words and speak words without being in a proper state.
... all to often I go through the motions without being in the proper state. I may have a routine down which works for me but I have a lot of work to do.
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« Reply #68 on: May 04, 2012, 10:54:15 PM »

How much time do we credit to fasting?
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« Reply #69 on: May 05, 2012, 12:50:35 AM »

How much time do we credit to fasting?

24 hours if you keep the fast on Wednesdays and Fridays, plus from midnight until liturgy on Sundays, add it up and divide by 7.  During Lent, you rack up lots of hours.
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« Reply #70 on: May 05, 2012, 03:43:03 AM »

The condemned Pharisee prayed a lot longer than the Publican ...

... in public.

You don't know who really prayed longer before God.  For all you know, the Publican prayed a lot longer than the Pharisee, but he did it in private.  In fact, I'd even say that is likely.  But only God knows.

eh?
they went both to the Temple to pray, privacy was not the issue here. as to the longer prayer , indeed we can see that the pharisee prayed longer listing all his virtues, and with a selfrighteous spirit comparing himself with the publican he saw with contempt. but the publican's prayer was short and we are told By The LORD what they each prayed , so yes God has told us what they have said when they prayed. you can see which was longer. the Publican presented himself before God with humility, the other stood up with pride before God and declared his righteousness. the lesson of the story was not about praying in public, we are only told the prideful positioning of themselves in relative to the inside of the Temple and each other. they were not declaring their prayer to the public, but to God and the One who heard judged them according to the humility of their heart.

We don't know who prayed longer *during the entire day*.  We don't know who spent more time in prayer during the day.  That's my point.   Of the Pharisees, Christ said "they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.  But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."

The publican's *public* prayer was short.  However, if he was obedient to God then his public prayers were not his only prayers that day.

I agree with you though that humility is the point of the story.  The fact remains, though, that only God knows who really prayed longer before God *that day*.  For all you know, the Publican prayed a lot longer than the Pharisee, but he did it later, in private.  In fact, I'd even say that is likely given that he was justified, and private prayers are characteristics of the godly.  

But only God knows.

we were referring to the particular parable, the length of the prayer as well as the essence of the said prayer.

and the point I am not comfortable with is, the subtle assumption that the event of that day could have been based on previous events such as their previous prayers. suppose that the publican came and prayed just that day? like the robber on the cross. look at the abundant grace given to a single utterance of a heartfelt humble prayer... we must not lose sight of that, and assume that there must have been a prior long or short consistent prayer etc. so why assume it? why not stick to the parable itself? it is simply possible to say that based on that day's prayer alone and how they prayed it, they were both judged, and that would hold profound lesson in it. in any case it is easy to lose or gain with what comes out of  the fullness of ones heart, at any time in ones life.

I'm not comfortable with the assumption that there were no more prayers by the publican in private, and neither am I comfortable with the assumption that there were more prayers later.  That's why I said, "Only God knows."

I guessed about the rest of their day because the topic of this thread has to do with the amount of time in spiritual practice (prayer especially) people are spending "daily" (each day).  So I'm thinking in terms of days.  Yes, the parable covers only a short period of time in public at the temple.  However, it took place in the context of a an entire day.  Just because the rest of the day was not written about does not mean it is not important.  The point of the parable had to do with the humble spirit of proper prayer.  The point was not "you must keep your prayers short and only pray for 15 seconds each day."  Rather, the righteous will "rejoice always, pray continually, and give thanks in all circumstances; for this is God’s will..."  The point of the parable was to show the proper humble spirit our continual prayers should have.  

Therefore, in the context of this thread, I think it is important to remember that the prayers recorded in that parable very well may not have been the only prayers those men said that day if one of them was truly living a justified life before God, in God's will.  

Again, I'm not assuming there were more prayers nor am I assuming there weren't more prayers later in the day.  I'm simply noting the fact that, according to Christ, the hypocritical Pharisees liked to pray long prayers in public, and that was their only reward.  So we should not be surprised that the public prayer of the Pharisee was longer than the justified tax collector's public prayer.  But according to the Scriptures the righteous pray in secret also, and continually, not only in public.  

Yes, the justified tax collector's short, public prayer may have been the only prayers he said that day, but it also may not have been.  We have no idea from that parable alone.  However, judging from what Christ and the rest of Scripture says about the prayer habits of the righteous, the tax collector very well may have prayed more later, in private.  

Again, only God knows for sure.  
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« Reply #71 on: May 05, 2012, 07:51:14 AM »

Quote
How much do you spend in spiritual practice, such as worship, prayer, and meditation EACH DAY?

That depends on where I'm at in life.  Right now, probably about 2-3 hours per day.  One hour in the morning, one after work, and sometimes one before bed.

Acts420, do these "meditation" sessions include 420? This seems a bit suspicious...

If by 420 you mean kanehbosm, I do burn kanehbosm as incense as part of my morning prayer time.  As with any incense, I do inhale a slight amount of it (probably less than you see many priests inhale of their incense at the altar).  Sometimes I anoint myself with oil that has kanehbosm in it, according to the recipe from the book of Exodus. 


Praise be to God!
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« Reply #72 on: May 05, 2012, 11:06:33 AM »

Just a quick point of order:

It's considered gauche at least among Orthodox to ask someone how much they pray or how well they fast. The expression is that we don't look at someone else s plate ( while fasting) to see if they are eating within the Lenten rules.

The better way to have put this question is to say how much you admire sincere piety, that you hear Orthodox prayer and fasting rules are challenging, etc. You probably should not boil it down to clocking in and out Smiley

Here is the standard rule I was taught :

Morning and bedtime prayers' These can be longer or shorter depending on the prayer book you use. The Rocor (Jordanville) book is long, Antiocian (Red) prayer book is shorter etc.

Prayer before and after each meal

Additional prayer such as praying the "Hours" or Compline is always good to do'

 The Prayer of Repentance or others may be assigned to you by your confessor.

Personal Prayers ( "God help my friend get over his illness" etc,) whenever you like, but especially after Morning Prayer

Keep the name of Jesus Christ on your lips all day. "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner" This is especially good in place of idle time while driving or walking'  Some people set a time to say the "Jesus Prayer" exclusively. This varies by the guidance of your Priest or Spiritual Father or Mother. Saying the Jesus Prayer continually is an important practice for many Orthodox.

If you wish to know more about Orthodox Prayer, you should google around and learn more about the Jesus Prayer

Divine Liturgy is considered "Corporate Prayer". We are expected to attend Vespers or "Vigil"  which is Vespers and Matins together, the night before.

Molebans are said for special needs . Akathiests  ( Standing Prayer) are said on some special occasions but can also be added into your personal rule. For example we had a group of friends decide that every Thursday night in our own homes but at the same time we would all Pray the Akathist to the Mother of God or similar.

We are expected to make a confession of our sins regularly.

We fast Wed and Friday and then much longer  preceding Major feast days ( Christmas, Easter etc.)  

I hope that is of some help.
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« Reply #73 on: May 05, 2012, 11:10:53 AM »

Does posting here count?
Lol, that was my first thought too.

Prayer in the morning about a minute for myself and then about 10 to 15 minutes of prayer and Bible with my children. on the way to school/work. After I get to work a couple minutes of prayer.

At noon most workdays 30 minutes of prayer and reading the Fathers.

Before I leave work in the evening a couple minutes of prayer time.

In the evening about 30 minutes of prayer Bible reading and lives of the Saints with my family.

Another short prayer by my self at bedtime.

Working at being more consistant about praying before supper.

And periodic random prayer throughout the day.

Also I periodically sing Orthodox songs when they pop into my head, and usually play Orthodox internet radio in the background when I'm not interviewing someone at work.

Also I do make it a point to pray at least once for all the prayer requests I come across here or on facebook, and in prayer chain e-mails I get from a group I'm in. Some of the internet based requests I do intergrate into the rest of my prayers as well.

On weekends I tend to slack off a bit on everything but the evening prayers and the internet based stuff.

We go to Divine Liturgy every Sunday and Sat. Vespers every other week. But then we live just over an hour away from our Church.

This gives me hope in Christianity. Thank you for posting this as an exemplar lifestyle. The thing about "closing your door and praying in secret so that no one knows what you are doing" has been horrifically misinterpreted by the pathetic masses. Yashua was intentionally overstating the point to get his message across about the pharisees who pompously prayed with 20 ft. long robes on the street side. In actuality, he also said to let your light shine in the world so that everyone can see your deeds and praise God. It's time for Christians to come out of their closets and stop being cowards about prayer. Everyone should pray in front of the world for all to see. Thank you for being righteous.

And thank you for making me feel better about my bouts of self-righteousness and generally jerkery (tm).  You do realize that you hurt your cause when you act like a complete and total pompous ass, yes?

Only the heathens cuss. I'm glad I'm not one of them!

Boys and girls, here is Exhibit A of avoiding the question
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« Reply #74 on: May 05, 2012, 01:54:49 PM »

The condemned Pharisee prayed a lot longer than the Publican ...

... in public.

You don't know who really prayed longer before God.  For all you know, the Publican prayed a lot longer than the Pharisee, but he did it in private.  In fact, I'd even say that is likely.  But only God knows.

eh?
they went both to the Temple to pray, privacy was not the issue here. as to the longer prayer , indeed we can see that the pharisee prayed longer listing all his virtues, and with a selfrighteous spirit comparing himself with the publican he saw with contempt. but the publican's prayer was short and we are told By The LORD what they each prayed , so yes God has told us what they have said when they prayed. you can see which was longer. the Publican presented himself before God with humility, the other stood up with pride before God and declared his righteousness. the lesson of the story was not about praying in public, we are only told the prideful positioning of themselves in relative to the inside of the Temple and each other. they were not declaring their prayer to the public, but to God and the One who heard judged them according to the humility of their heart.

We don't know who prayed longer *during the entire day*.  We don't know who spent more time in prayer during the day.  That's my point.   Of the Pharisees, Christ said "they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.  But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."

The publican's *public* prayer was short.  However, if he was obedient to God then his public prayers were not his only prayers that day.

I agree with you though that humility is the point of the story.  The fact remains, though, that only God knows who really prayed longer before God *that day*.  For all you know, the Publican prayed a lot longer than the Pharisee, but he did it later, in private.  In fact, I'd even say that is likely given that he was justified, and private prayers are characteristics of the godly.  

But only God knows.

we were referring to the particular parable, the length of the prayer as well as the essence of the said prayer.

and the point I am not comfortable with is, the subtle assumption that the event of that day could have been based on previous events such as their previous prayers. suppose that the publican came and prayed just that day? like the robber on the cross. look at the abundant grace given to a single utterance of a heartfelt humble prayer... we must not lose sight of that, and assume that there must have been a prior long or short consistent prayer etc. so why assume it? why not stick to the parable itself? it is simply possible to say that based on that day's prayer alone and how they prayed it, they were both judged, and that would hold profound lesson in it. in any case it is easy to lose or gain with what comes out of  the fullness of ones heart, at any time in ones life.

I'm not comfortable with the assumption that there were no more prayers by the publican in private, and neither am I comfortable with the assumption that there were more prayers later.  That's why I said, "Only God knows."

I guessed about the rest of their day because the topic of this thread has to do with the amount of time in spiritual practice (prayer especially) people are spending "daily" (each day).  So I'm thinking in terms of days.  Yes, the parable covers only a short period of time in public at the temple.  However, it took place in the context of a an entire day.  Just because the rest of the day was not written about does not mean it is not important.  The point of the parable had to do with the humble spirit of proper prayer.  The point was not "you must keep your prayers short and only pray for 15 seconds each day."  Rather, the righteous will "rejoice always, pray continually, and give thanks in all circumstances; for this is God’s will..."  The point of the parable was to show the proper humble spirit our continual prayers should have.  

Therefore, in the context of this thread, I think it is important to remember that the prayers recorded in that parable very well may not have been the only prayers those men said that day if one of them was truly living a justified life before God, in God's will.  

Again, I'm not assuming there were more prayers nor am I assuming there weren't more prayers later in the day.  I'm simply noting the fact that, according to Christ, the hypocritical Pharisees liked to pray long prayers in public, and that was their only reward.  So we should not be surprised that the public prayer of the Pharisee was longer than the justified tax collector's public prayer.  But according to the Scriptures the righteous pray in secret also, and continually, not only in public.  

Yes, the justified tax collector's short, public prayer may have been the only prayers he said that day, but it also may not have been.  We have no idea from that parable alone.  However, judging from what Christ and the rest of Scripture says about the prayer habits of the righteous, the tax collector very well may have prayed more later, in private.  

Again, only God knows for sure.  



Prayer has lots of components to it. One of them is Time. That time could be a set time and or at any time. However Time spent on prayer alone that is the longness or the shortness of it has no meaning without the other elements of Prayer.

Those who approach in faith must approach with humility as well.

I agree with you we are commanded to pray without being discouraged, to be persistent in prayer. The Christian then persists in prayer. However the time alone is not the focus here, what gives the time meaning is the humility, the hope, the faith, the love etc...of the person doing the prayer as he or she communes with God.

My point of disagreement  is that you seem to think that justification depends on getting in many hours of prayer. You keep implying the length of time in practicing prayer, a condition for the justification of men, the accumulation of many hours of prayer. When you say only God knows, you say it to support what seems to me ( and I am willing to be corrected if I misunderstood you, but I feel that is the entire motive of the original question in this thread itself) the premise of a logic that seems to say ‘ just men pray many times’ , the publican was justified , therefore he might/must have prayed before that in private to earn that justification. Yes God knows what was prayed before or after, however the before or the after were not the condition of the justification of the Publican that day.
Many labor in the field starting from the first hour and receive the same wage as the ones who come at the 11th hour. And those men seem to grumble for the reason that they who have endured the heat of the day deserve more than the ones who came at the last hour. But remember what the Lord has said to them.

The prodigal son gets an enthusiastic reception, while the loyal son who served him day and night watches, his father runs to welcome the returning prodigal son, who returns with great humility intent to serve as a slave in his father’s house. The father embraces him with love , kisses him, puts new rob and ring on his finger, slain the fatted calf, invites the neighbors to rejoice and share with his joy over the return of His son….. the elder son, had a lot to say the time he has put on serving his father, in comparison to the son who left him to peruse his selfish desires. Remember how the father answers him.

The Canaanite woman came to Jesus, pleading for her daughter, and she remains persistent even when what was said to her could have led her to be defeated by her ego and turn back, rather she gets what she was asking because of her humility and her faith.

The centurion, who pleaded for the health of his servant, said with great humility, ‘Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. For I myself am a man under authority with soldiers under me. I tell this one Go and he goes; and that one, ‘come’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘do this’ and he does it’.. what was Jesus’s reply?

The man who spent a lot of time with Jesus left betraying him with a kiss for money on opportune time. While Mary came into the fold, sold everything and bought Nard to pour on his head and kissed him on his feet with great love and humility.

These are men and women, who are like arrows, who are launched by a master archer, flying swift,  light and high,  not weigh down by pride and self-righteousness or a sense of entitlement. These are warriors, who defeat the proud enemy with their steadfast humility. These are beings of Love, who love without expecting anything in return, they simply love and live their  lives for the sake of the beloved. These are men and women who reject the  world, and its proud arrogant, self-righteous hateful ways for the love of Christ. These are sinners who rise up when they fall and keep fighting by the power of Christ. These are Christians.

Now having said that, all of the above goes hand in hand with the Lord’s and His Apostles command of:

Be persistent in prayer, pray without ceasing, have faith, hope, Love, and cloak yourselves with humility.
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« Reply #75 on: May 05, 2012, 05:07:09 PM »

The centurion... These are warriors, who defeat the proud enemy with their steadfast humility. These are beings of Love, who love without expecting anything in return, they simply love and live their  lives for the sake of the beloved. These are men and women who reject the  world, and its proud arrogant, self-righteous hateful ways for the love of Christ. These are sinners who rise up when they fall and keep fighting by the power of Christ. These are Christians.


That centurion was going around terrorizing Palestine, forcing everyone to pay the 20%+ annual property tax which nobody hardly had the means to pay, throwing people off their land who were not able, crucifying those who outright refused, fighting the men of God in the Jewish armies, and ultimately serving the "god" Cesar the Antichrist.

PLEASE know what you are talking about before you post that unrighteousness.
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« Reply #76 on: May 05, 2012, 06:17:27 PM »

The centurion... These are warriors, who defeat the proud enemy with their steadfast humility. These are beings of Love, who love without expecting anything in return, they simply love and live their  lives for the sake of the beloved. These are men and women who reject the  world, and its proud arrogant, self-righteous hateful ways for the love of Christ. These are sinners who rise up when they fall and keep fighting by the power of Christ. These are Christians.


That centurion was going around terrorizing Palestine, forcing everyone to pay the 20%+ annual property tax which nobody hardly had the means to pay, throwing people off their land who were not able, crucifying those who outright refused, fighting the men of God in the Jewish armies, and ultimately serving the "god" Cesar the Antichrist.

PLEASE know what you are talking about before you post that unrighteousness.

Smiley the Son of God came to call the sinners into repentance. May the Lord have mercy on us my brother.

Peace to you, in Christ,
Hiwot.
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« Reply #77 on: May 06, 2012, 08:58:05 PM »

NOYB!
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« Reply #78 on: May 06, 2012, 09:00:45 PM »

It's pretty sporadic, unfortunately.
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« Reply #79 on: May 06, 2012, 09:19:51 PM »

You know, even if someone here could truthfully answer: "24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year for every year of my life" the still more truthful response would be: "Nowhere near enough".
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« Reply #80 on: May 06, 2012, 09:22:56 PM »

The centurion... These are warriors, who defeat the proud enemy with their steadfast humility. These are beings of Love, who love without expecting anything in return, they simply love and live their  lives for the sake of the beloved. These are men and women who reject the  world, and its proud arrogant, self-righteous hateful ways for the love of Christ. These are sinners who rise up when they fall and keep fighting by the power of Christ. These are Christians.


That centurion was going around terrorizing Palestine, forcing everyone to pay the 20%+ annual property tax which nobody hardly had the means to pay, throwing people off their land who were not able, crucifying those who outright refused, fighting the men of God in the Jewish armies, and ultimately serving the "god" Cesar the Antichrist.

PLEASE know what you are talking about before you post that unrighteousness.

Oh dear. We'd probably better not tell you about all those tax collectors Jesus went around forgiving.

Everybody, quiet down about the publicans, like Zaccheus, Levi (St Matthew), and the rest being good friends with Jesus. We'd hate for this man to think us even more impious.
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« Reply #81 on: May 06, 2012, 10:41:15 PM »

And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,

   6And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.

   7And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.

   8The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.

   9For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.

   10When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

   11And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

   12But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

   13And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour

http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Matthew+8&version=9
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« Reply #82 on: May 07, 2012, 11:56:26 AM »

I'm not comfortable with the assumption that there were no more prayers by the publican in private, and neither am I comfortable with the assumption that there were more prayers later.  That's why I said, "Only God knows."

I guessed about the rest of their day because the topic of this thread has to do with the amount of time in spiritual practice (prayer especially) people are spending "daily" (each day).  So I'm thinking in terms of days.  Yes, the parable covers only a short period of time in public at the temple.  However, it took place in the context of a an entire day.  Just because the rest of the day was not written about does not mean it is not important.  The point of the parable had to do with the humble spirit of proper prayer.  The point was not "you must keep your prayers short and only pray for 15 seconds each day."  Rather, the righteous will "rejoice always, pray continually, and give thanks in all circumstances; for this is God’s will..."  The point of the parable was to show the proper humble spirit our continual prayers should have.  

Therefore, in the context of this thread, I think it is important to remember that the prayers recorded in that parable very well may not have been the only prayers those men said that day if one of them was truly living a justified life before God, in God's will.  

Again, I'm not assuming there were more prayers nor am I assuming there weren't more prayers later in the day.  I'm simply noting the fact that, according to Christ, the hypocritical Pharisees liked to pray long prayers in public, and that was their only reward.  So we should not be surprised that the public prayer of the Pharisee was longer than the justified tax collector's public prayer.  But according to the Scriptures the righteous pray in secret also, and continually, not only in public.  

Yes, the justified tax collector's short, public prayer may have been the only prayers he said that day, but it also may not have been.  We have no idea from that parable alone.  However, judging from what Christ and the rest of Scripture says about the prayer habits of the righteous, the tax collector very well may have prayed more later, in private.  

Again, only God knows for sure.  

Prayer has lots of components to it. One of them is Time. That time could be a set time and or at any time. However Time spent on prayer alone that is the longness or the shortness of it has no meaning without the other elements of Prayer.

Those who approach in faith must approach with humility as well.

I agree with you we are commanded to pray without being discouraged, to be persistent in prayer. The Christian then persists in prayer. However the time alone is not the focus here, what gives the time meaning is the humility, the hope, the faith, the love etc...of the person doing the prayer as he or she communes with God.

My point of disagreement  is that you seem to think that justification depends on getting in many hours of prayer. You keep implying the length of time in practicing prayer, a condition for the justification of men, the accumulation of many hours of prayer. When you say only God knows, you say it to support what seems to me ( and I am willing to be corrected if I misunderstood you, but I feel that is the entire motive of the original question in this thread itself) the premise of a logic that seems to say ‘ just men pray many times’ , the publican was justified , therefore he might/must have prayed before that in private to earn that justification. Yes God knows what was prayed before or after, however the before or the after were not the condition of the justification of the Publican that day.
Many labor in the field starting from the first hour and receive the same wage as the ones who come at the 11th hour. And those men seem to grumble for the reason that they who have endured the heat of the day deserve more than the ones who came at the last hour. But remember what the Lord has said to them.

The prodigal son gets an enthusiastic reception, while the loyal son who served him day and night watches, his father runs to welcome the returning prodigal son, who returns with great humility intent to serve as a slave in his father’s house. The father embraces him with love , kisses him, puts new rob and ring on his finger, slain the fatted calf, invites the neighbors to rejoice and share with his joy over the return of His son….. the elder son, had a lot to say the time he has put on serving his father, in comparison to the son who left him to peruse his selfish desires. Remember how the father answers him.

The Canaanite woman came to Jesus, pleading for her daughter, and she remains persistent even when what was said to her could have led her to be defeated by her ego and turn back, rather she gets what she was asking because of her humility and her faith.

The centurion, who pleaded for the health of his servant, said with great humility, ‘Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. For I myself am a man under authority with soldiers under me. I tell this one Go and he goes; and that one, ‘come’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘do this’ and he does it’.. what was Jesus’s reply?

The man who spent a lot of time with Jesus left betraying him with a kiss for money on opportune time. While Mary came into the fold, sold everything and bought Nard to pour on his head and kissed him on his feet with great love and humility.

These are men and women, who are like arrows, who are launched by a master archer, flying swift,  light and high,  not weigh down by pride and self-righteousness or a sense of entitlement. These are warriors, who defeat the proud enemy with their steadfast humility. These are beings of Love, who love without expecting anything in return, they simply love and live their  lives for the sake of the beloved. These are men and women who reject the  world, and its proud arrogant, self-righteous hateful ways for the love of Christ. These are sinners who rise up when they fall and keep fighting by the power of Christ. These are Christians.

Now having said that, all of the above goes hand in hand with the Lord’s and His Apostles command of:

Be persistent in prayer, pray without ceasing, have faith, hope, Love, and cloak yourselves with humility.

I certainly do not think, as you say I do, "that justification depends on getting in many hours of prayer."  Justification depends on Christ and our cooperation with Him.  Many hours in prayer help us become like Christ though; we should not forget how much our Savior prayed while he was here showing us how to live.  Christ spent many hours in prayer.  He prayed all night sometimes.  We should strive to be like Christ. We should pray.  A lot.  

But we must pray humbly.  That's the point.  I agree that time in prayer has no meaning apart from having the proper mind-set of humility.  If that's what you're saying, then we agree.  

I'm also definitely not saying that the tax collector "might/must have prayed before [going to the temple] in private to earn that justification."  He prayed with a humble heart, and that is how he was justified.  Whether one prays in public or private doesn't matter, the motives of the prayers are what matter.  We must pray humbly, not as if we're holier than those around us.  And we should pray so that other's see God in us, not so that others see how great we are.

You said, "The man who spent a lot of time with Jesus left betraying him with a kiss for money on opportune time."  All the Apostles spent a lot of time with Jesus.  

It almost seems to me you're trying to say short prayers are better than longer prayers.  They are not.  We should be praying continually.  Long prayers are good.  The key is this: humble prayers are better than prideful prayers.   Jesus often used extreme examples in order to teach us, for instance "cut off your hand."  We should not abuse the parable about the tax collector's prayer and mis-interpret it to mean only short prayers count.  The point of the tax collector's short prayer is to show that one humble prayer is better than 10,000 prideful prayers.  The point is not that we should only pray for 10 seconds a day.   God forbid!

We should strive to be like Christ. We should pray.  A lot.  Paul says we should pray "continually."  But we must do so humbly, not to be seen by men, but so that we will all see the glory of God.  The motives of our hearts and the way we view ourselves before God and men are what help to make our prayers effective.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2012, 11:59:16 AM by acts420 » Logged

In Christ,
Jason
www.acts420.com
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