Author Topic: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church  (Read 8102 times)

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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church
« Reply #90 on: May 04, 2012, 07:49:48 PM »
"How I hate the traditions of men."

Remember who said that?

I'm not sure, please correct me if I'm wrong... Some women see head coverings as oppressive, or pushed on them.

If you are this way at all, you may want (if you like both sides of the story) to watch some youtube videos on the issue.  There are women who really LOVE to wear it, and see it as a complete sign of respect to their faith, church, husband, and God.   They don't feel bad at all on the issue.

In fact, my wife wears a head covering 24/7.  Not on my request, by her own research into it and a decision on her own.   She grew up protestant Methodist in Dallas, TX, and now is Anabaptist with heavy interest into Orthodoxy because of me.   I have incredible respect for the journey she has been on.  
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Offline biro

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Re: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church
« Reply #91 on: May 04, 2012, 07:51:42 PM »
So, you ignored what I posted.

Why on Earth would I care what's on Youtube? Why do I want to watch somebody else's personal opinions?

I'm not stupid, I've seen people wear head coverings.

I'm not an Orthodox Jew, I don't think I have to shave my head and put a wig over it.

The hell do you think you are, anyway?

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church
« Reply #92 on: May 04, 2012, 07:54:34 PM »
St. Paul is not the Savior. You do know that, don't you?

I thought God was a quadity.  ???

Of course.  Most people understand Paul to have been given many of the words of Christ through the apostles orally, and also think of him to have received knowledge of the church from the apostles.   Most EO Christians call him an apostle.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church
« Reply #93 on: May 04, 2012, 07:56:43 PM »
So, you ignored what I posted.

Why on Earth would I care what's on Youtube? Why do I want to watch somebody else's personal opinions?

I'm not stupid, I've seen people wear head coverings.

I'm not an Orthodox Jew, I don't think I have to shave my head and put a wig over it.

The hell do you think you are, anyway?

No, I was responding to something else, then got to your reply.
Orthodox Patriarchs, theologians, and many experts on Christianity are on youtube.
Didn't say you were an Orthodox Jew.
Please stop cussing.   I'm not out to get you.

Read the scriptures and call me wrong.
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Offline biro

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Re: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church
« Reply #94 on: May 04, 2012, 07:59:00 PM »
How many times do I have to say, I've read them, and I already posted umpteen things to show why you're wrong?

Do you buy bondsmen and not beat them because the slave is your money? That's in there too.

Talk about someone who can't see the forest for the trees.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church
« Reply #95 on: May 04, 2012, 08:03:24 PM »
Quote
ROCOR is more traditional in it's leanings. A lot of it has to do with after the Bolshevik Revolution the Russian Church Abroad wanted to maintain the whole of the Russian Orthodox way of life in the face of Soviet oppression.

Modern is not in ROCOR's vocabulary.

You will find headscarves and dresses in other jurisdictions as well though. Just in ROCOR it's standard practice.

I respect ROCOR a lot for this.   I believe firmly that ROCOR is following the scriptures as my OP put.   I also have seen head coverings in other jurisdictions including in America.  However, the OCA and GOA do seem to go off course with tradition and scripture, which is why I am curious that they do.  Now of course, this does not include all, but some.  I've seen many in scarves in both OCA and GOA, but it baffles me as to why they don't "say something" at least, to revert back to tradition.
Yes, the Gospel is founded on scarves and Christ died to put them on women's heads and so they should be the top of the list of priorities of the OCA and GOA.  They will solve all our problems.
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Online Justin Kissel

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Re: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church
« Reply #96 on: May 04, 2012, 08:07:32 PM »
You're tempting me to do a google image search...

I will resist...

I will...

(I'm going to the kitchen for something... for anything!)

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church
« Reply #97 on: May 04, 2012, 08:08:21 PM »
Quote
ROCOR is more traditional in it's leanings. A lot of it has to do with after the Bolshevik Revolution the Russian Church Abroad wanted to maintain the whole of the Russian Orthodox way of life in the face of Soviet oppression.

Modern is not in ROCOR's vocabulary.

You will find headscarves and dresses in other jurisdictions as well though. Just in ROCOR it's standard practice.

I respect ROCOR a lot for this.   I believe firmly that ROCOR is following the scriptures as my OP put.   I also have seen head coverings in other jurisdictions including in America.  However, the OCA and GOA do seem to go off course with tradition and scripture, which is why I am curious that they do.  Now of course, this does not include all, but some.  I've seen many in scarves in both OCA and GOA, but it baffles me as to why they don't "say something" at least, to revert back to tradition.
Yes, the Gospel is founded on scarves and Christ died to put them on women's heads and so they should be the top of the list of priorities of the OCA and GOA.  They will solve all our problems.


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Offline biro

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Re: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church
« Reply #98 on: May 04, 2012, 08:09:08 PM »


I've got to go sit down for a while.

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church
« Reply #99 on: May 04, 2012, 08:11:35 PM »
yeshuaisiam - any response to Reply #65 regarding legalism within ROCOR?
« Last Edit: May 04, 2012, 08:12:37 PM by SolEX01 »

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church
« Reply #100 on: May 04, 2012, 08:52:11 PM »
How many times do I have to say, I've read them, and I already posted umpteen things to show why you're wrong?

Do you buy bondsmen and not beat them because the slave is your money? That's in there too.

Talk about someone who can't see the forest for the trees.
Actually you have NOT posted anything to show how I am wrong.

You mostly posted "ah ha" arguments, and said "what are you supposed to do in the winter".  You are not challenging me, you are challenging the scriptures.  Early Roman Catholic/Eastern Orthodox and Christian history practiced head coverings.   You are only losing credibility here by saying its wrong.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church
« Reply #101 on: May 04, 2012, 08:54:54 PM »
Quote
ROCOR is more traditional in it's leanings. A lot of it has to do with after the Bolshevik Revolution the Russian Church Abroad wanted to maintain the whole of the Russian Orthodox way of life in the face of Soviet oppression.

Modern is not in ROCOR's vocabulary.

You will find headscarves and dresses in other jurisdictions as well though. Just in ROCOR it's standard practice.

I respect ROCOR a lot for this.   I believe firmly that ROCOR is following the scriptures as my OP put.   I also have seen head coverings in other jurisdictions including in America.  However, the OCA and GOA do seem to go off course with tradition and scripture, which is why I am curious that they do.  Now of course, this does not include all, but some.  I've seen many in scarves in both OCA and GOA, but it baffles me as to why they don't "say something" at least, to revert back to tradition.
Yes, the Gospel is founded on scarves and Christ died to put them on women's heads and so they should be the top of the list of priorities of the OCA and GOA.  They will solve all our problems.


This is the most incredible, ridiculous thing I've ever seen posted on OC net, and nearly on the internet.   WOW.
I'm really sure she was PRAYING without ceasing.  I'm sure she had modesty in mind.

PLAYBOY backs your point.... PLAYBOY.   Scriptures and early Christianity back mine.
Are you really Orthodox?
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Online Justin Kissel

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Re: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church
« Reply #102 on: May 04, 2012, 09:01:14 PM »
To be fair, it is only Playboy. That's not even pornography, really. I mean, compared to the stuff I see online, the stuff in playboy is downright artistic and tastefully portrayed.

Also, I blame the fact that I ended up doing an image search for more pics from this issue on you people quoting it a bunch of times.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church
« Reply #103 on: May 04, 2012, 09:03:19 PM »
yeshuaisiam - any response to Reply #65 regarding legalism within ROCOR?

Yes, sorry I missed it, was probably in a digressive argument.  As you see, I was just responded with a playboy pic.  LOL

Rocor follows 1 Corinthians 11.   That is the basis of the head covering, and has been through nearly all of Christian history.

Here is a thread from a different forum about it.

http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?1343-Women-and-head-coverings

With that said, in respect, I don't like to entertain questions when people say "Other than what the scriptures said".   I don't believe in casting off the scriptures in any biblical discussion.  

Besides, its not my argument, which is odd that so many are making it that way.

ROCOR follows the scripture, many in the OCA do not.  Obviously the scriptures read the way they do, and two churches in communion are not on par in this.

People are trying to make this a "Me vs. the church" argument.   In reality, its a ROCOR & OCA/GOA difference.   I just wanted to discuss.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church
« Reply #104 on: May 04, 2012, 09:10:09 PM »
To be fair, it is only Playboy. That's not even pornography, really. I mean, compared to the stuff I see online, the stuff in playboy is downright artistic and tastefully portrayed.

Also, I blame the fact that I ended up doing an image search for more pics from this issue on you people quoting it a bunch of times.

Well, I'm sure there are tremendously vile things online, but Playboy is still lustful, immodest, and a ridiculous point.  Showing a head covering on a woman in playboy...  I would expect it from a non-Christian to make a point.   But somebody who proclaims to be Eastern Orthodox, where every single icon of a female shows women with a head covering, from the greater worldwide body of Orthodox practicing head coverings... The point in the argument for the OCA/GOA was playboy, trying to somehow say "not all head covering women are good".... Playboy... Speechless.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2012, 09:10:49 PM by yeshuaisiam »
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church
« Reply #105 on: May 04, 2012, 09:21:24 PM »
yeshuaisiam - any response to Reply #65 regarding legalism within ROCOR?

Yes, sorry I missed it, was probably in a digressive argument.  As you see, I was just responded with a playboy pic.  LOL

Rocor follows 1 Corinthians 11.   That is the basis of the head covering, and has been through nearly all of Christian history.

Here is a thread from a different forum about it.

http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?1343-Women-and-head-coverings

With that said, in respect, I don't like to entertain questions when people say "Other than what the scriptures said".   I don't believe in casting off the scriptures in any biblical discussion.  

Besides, its not my argument, which is odd that so many are making it that way.

ROCOR follows the scripture, many in the OCA do not.  Obviously the scriptures read the way they do, and two churches in communion are not on par in this.

People are trying to make this a "Me vs. the church" argument.   In reality, its a ROCOR & OCA/GOA difference.   I just wanted to discuss.

We beat this topic to death in this thread.



Offline ialmisry

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Re: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church
« Reply #106 on: May 04, 2012, 09:48:30 PM »
Quote
ROCOR is more traditional in it's leanings. A lot of it has to do with after the Bolshevik Revolution the Russian Church Abroad wanted to maintain the whole of the Russian Orthodox way of life in the face of Soviet oppression.

Modern is not in ROCOR's vocabulary.

You will find headscarves and dresses in other jurisdictions as well though. Just in ROCOR it's standard practice.

I respect ROCOR a lot for this.   I believe firmly that ROCOR is following the scriptures as my OP put.   I also have seen head coverings in other jurisdictions including in America.  However, the OCA and GOA do seem to go off course with tradition and scripture, which is why I am curious that they do.  Now of course, this does not include all, but some.  I've seen many in scarves in both OCA and GOA, but it baffles me as to why they don't "say something" at least, to revert back to tradition.
Yes, the Gospel is founded on scarves and Christ died to put them on women's heads and so they should be the top of the list of priorities of the OCA and GOA.  They will solve all our problems.


This is the most incredible, ridiculous thing I've ever seen posted on OC net, and nearly on the internet.   WOW.
I'm really sure she was PRAYING without ceasing.  I'm sure she had modesty in mind.

PLAYBOY backs your point.... PLAYBOY.   Scriptures and early Christianity back mine.
Are you really Orthodox?
Yes.  Are you?

PLAYBOY backs your point...don't you see the head covering?

And I won't post it, but she isn't wearing pants.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2012, 09:53:57 PM by ialmisry »
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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Offline Manalive

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Re: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church
« Reply #107 on: May 04, 2012, 10:40:08 PM »
Yes.  Are you?

PLAYBOY backs your point...don't you see the head covering?

And I won't post it, but she isn't wearing pants.

Why not? Let's see the difference in why her wearing a head covering and Orthodox women wearing one mean basically the same thing.  You should post it. Perhaps I'll be able to understand how they are the same if I see a naked girl wearing a head covering.

This gives me the idea of not wearing any pants to Liturgy Sunday. I wouldn't want to stand out in my ridiculously modest pants. Maybe I can liberate the nun that attends our parish from time to time to see her head covering as an outdated practice too-- not fit for a post Christian 21st century.

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church
« Reply #108 on: May 04, 2012, 11:44:04 PM »
Yes.  Are you?

PLAYBOY backs your point...don't you see the head covering?

And I won't post it, but she isn't wearing pants.

Why not? Let's see the difference in why her wearing a head covering and Orthodox women wearing one mean basically the same thing.  You should post it. Perhaps I'll be able to understand how they are the same if I see a naked girl wearing a head covering.
How's this?

Somehow I don't think they are Orthodox.  I know these aren't

They are wearing pants.

This gives me the idea of not wearing any pants to Liturgy Sunday
Jesus didn't wear any, why should you.

I wouldn't want to stand out in my ridiculously modest pants.

Modest isn't the point. What is in the Bible is what is important.  Jesusiam says so.  There are no pants in the Bible.

Maybe I can liberate the nun that attends our parish from time to time to see her head covering as an outdated practice too-- not fit for a post Christian 21st century.
As long as she doesn't wear pants.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Shiny

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Re: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church
« Reply #109 on: May 05, 2012, 12:00:58 AM »
Isa owns.

You're tempting me to do a google image search...

I will resist...

I will...

(I'm going to the kitchen for something... for anything!)
I'm tempted to respond to you...
« Last Edit: May 05, 2012, 12:01:21 AM by Achronos »
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

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Offline dcommini

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Re: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church
« Reply #110 on: May 05, 2012, 01:34:43 AM »
Just wanted to point something out.

A while back I was having a discussion with my priest and the discussion some how turned to head coverings (I don't know how, as I have no reason to ever wear one despite my propensity to wear a man-skirt on the daily). Any way, my priest told me that he would prefer women to wear a head covering for the right reasons than for the wrong one. The right reason being that it is commanded in the scriptures and the woman was doing it to further her spiritual life. The wrong reason being the materialistic side to the issue. Yes, some women wear head coverings for spiritual reasons and others wear head coverings because everybody else is, and they want to fit in, or have the best and most expensive head scarf. It pretty much boils down to are you following the command for your own spirituality, or are you following it for your own pride?

That is when wearing a head scarf stops being modest and starts being immodest, or at least go against the whole no expensive clothing thing?

That is part of the reason why some jurisdictions exercise economia instead of a strict legalism.

Now can somebody answer my kilt question? 
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church
« Reply #111 on: May 05, 2012, 01:45:16 AM »
Just wanted to point something out.

A while back I was having a discussion with my priest and the discussion some how turned to head coverings (I don't know how, as I have no reason to ever wear one despite my propensity to wear a man-skirt on the daily). Any way, my priest told me that he would prefer women to wear a head covering for the right reasons than for the wrong one. The right reason being that it is commanded in the scriptures and the woman was doing it to further her spiritual life. The wrong reason being the materialistic side to the issue. Yes, some women wear head coverings for spiritual reasons and others wear head coverings because everybody else is, and they want to fit in, or have the best and most expensive head scarf. It pretty much boils down to are you following the command for your own spirituality, or are you following it for your own pride?

That is when wearing a head scarf stops being modest and starts being immodest, or at least go against the whole no expensive clothing thing?

That is part of the reason why some jurisdictions exercise economia instead of a strict legalism.

Now can somebody answer my kilt question? 
You mean, if you can wear anything underneath?
Up through at least WWII part of the Sergeant Major' inspection of Scottish Regiments in Kilts would include making sure they were going 'regimental'. Though requirement shave been relaxed since then, it's still encouraged.

Which reminds me of a rather famous photo now (I don't know if this crosses forum rules or not, it's probably borderline, but it's a rather famous and well published photo of cultural value and it really doesn't show that much):

(Warning! The image in this link shows male posterior nudity.) http://www.halfthedeck.com/images/Priceless%20Kilt.jpg

If I recall part of the story properly, the young soldier's Sergeant took look one glance at the photo and quickly reprimanded the young man who's kilt was blowing in the wind. As I'm sure you noticed, his socks arn't even. :D

I'd ask what "requirement shave" means but ( :P) given your link, I think I don't want to know.

Btw, I don't find the posterior gender neutral in the slightest.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline dcommini

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Re: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church
« Reply #112 on: May 05, 2012, 04:30:19 AM »
Just wanted to point something out.

A while back I was having a discussion with my priest and the discussion some how turned to head coverings (I don't know how, as I have no reason to ever wear one despite my propensity to wear a man-skirt on the daily). Any way, my priest told me that he would prefer women to wear a head covering for the right reasons than for the wrong one. The right reason being that it is commanded in the scriptures and the woman was doing it to further her spiritual life. The wrong reason being the materialistic side to the issue. Yes, some women wear head coverings for spiritual reasons and others wear head coverings because everybody else is, and they want to fit in, or have the best and most expensive head scarf. It pretty much boils down to are you following the command for your own spirituality, or are you following it for your own pride?

That is when wearing a head scarf stops being modest and starts being immodest, or at least go against the whole no expensive clothing thing?

That is part of the reason why some jurisdictions exercise economia instead of a strict legalism.

Now can somebody answer my kilt question? 
You mean, if you can wear anything underneath?
Up through at least WWII part of the Sergeant Major' inspection of Scottish Regiments in Kilts would include making sure they were going 'regimental'. Though requirement shave been relaxed since then, it's still encouraged.

Which reminds me of a rather famous photo now (I don't know if this crosses forum rules or not, it's probably borderline, but it's a rather famous and well published photo of cultural value and it really doesn't show that much):

(Warning! The image in this link shows male posterior nudity.) http://www.halfthedeck.com/images/Priceless%20Kilt.jpg

If I recall part of the story properly, the young soldier's Sergeant took look one glance at the photo and quickly reprimanded the young man who's kilt was blowing in the wind. As I'm sure you noticed, his socks arn't even. :D

I'd ask what "requirement shave" means but ( :P) given your link, I think I don't want to know.

Btw, I don't find the posterior gender neutral in the slightest.

I always wear something underneath my kilt... socks and shoes
N/OblSB

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Offline LBK

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Re: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church
« Reply #113 on: May 05, 2012, 05:30:53 AM »
Quote
where every single icon of a female shows women with a head covering,

Nonsense, yeshuisiam. Quite a few female saints are shown with their hair uncovered in the icons. St Mary of Egypt is the best-known example.

On women wearing something on their heads: Countless women attending church wear a small hat or beret, or a strip of translucent fabric, or a triangle of lace, yet most, if not all, of their hair is visible. The scriptural instruction for women to cover their heads says that their hair should be covered, as this is their "glory", "for the sake of the angels" (presumably so as not to offend them?). If scripture is to be followed as scrupulously as yeshuaisiam would like it to be, then this minimalist approach is no different than going bareheaded.
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church
« Reply #114 on: May 05, 2012, 04:13:01 PM »
Yes.  Are you?

PLAYBOY backs your point...don't you see the head covering?

And I won't post it, but she isn't wearing pants.

Why not? Let's see the difference in why her wearing a head covering and Orthodox women wearing one mean basically the same thing.  You should post it. Perhaps I'll be able to understand how they are the same if I see a naked girl wearing a head covering.
How's this?

Somehow I don't think they are Orthodox.  I know these aren't

They are wearing pants.

This gives me the idea of not wearing any pants to Liturgy Sunday
Jesus didn't wear any, why should you.

I wouldn't want to stand out in my ridiculously modest pants.

Modest isn't the point. What is in the Bible is what is important.  Jesusiam says so.  There are no pants in the Bible.

Maybe I can liberate the nun that attends our parish from time to time to see her head covering as an outdated practice too-- not fit for a post Christian 21st century.
As long as she doesn't wear pants.


There was an ad in the morning paper for something called True Evangelical Church with a tagline of 'worship like in the first century.'

I wonder if the preacher will wear pants?

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church
« Reply #115 on: May 05, 2012, 04:20:39 PM »
Just wanted to point something out.

A while back I was having a discussion with my priest and the discussion some how turned to head coverings (I don't know how, as I have no reason to ever wear one despite my propensity to wear a man-skirt on the daily). Any way, my priest told me that he would prefer women to wear a head covering for the right reasons than for the wrong one. The right reason being that it is commanded in the scriptures and the woman was doing it to further her spiritual life. The wrong reason being the materialistic side to the issue. Yes, some women wear head coverings for spiritual reasons and others wear head coverings because everybody else is, and they want to fit in, or have the best and most expensive head scarf. It pretty much boils down to are you following the command for your own spirituality, or are you following it for your own pride?

That is when wearing a head scarf stops being modest and starts being immodest, or at least go against the whole no expensive clothing thing?

That is part of the reason why some jurisdictions exercise economia instead of a strict legalism.

Now can somebody answer my kilt question? 

Sorry to you and Schultz, you seem like great guys. But kilts are for goofs. There is your answer.

And what is the "spiritual reason" for women covering their hair. It is arguably the most poorly exegeted Pauline passage.

Gotta remember. A letter to a parish at a particular time. Context is everything.
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Offline Cantor Krishnich

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Re: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church
« Reply #116 on: May 05, 2012, 11:14:13 PM »
I dont know why everyone is bashing this very pious sacred tradition!

I dont think women should cover their hair on a daily 24/7 but I think that more Americans should follow this practice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5C8D2hI6UY&feature=player_detailpage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=qcH4PY-Wsxk
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Re: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church
« Reply #117 on: May 06, 2012, 01:37:22 AM »
Just wanted to point something out.

A while back I was having a discussion with my priest and the discussion some how turned to head coverings (I don't know how, as I have no reason to ever wear one despite my propensity to wear a man-skirt on the daily). Any way, my priest told me that he would prefer women to wear a head covering for the right reasons than for the wrong one. The right reason being that it is commanded in the scriptures and the woman was doing it to further her spiritual life. The wrong reason being the materialistic side to the issue. Yes, some women wear head coverings for spiritual reasons and others wear head coverings because everybody else is, and they want to fit in, or have the best and most expensive head scarf. It pretty much boils down to are you following the command for your own spirituality, or are you following it for your own pride?

That is when wearing a head scarf stops being modest and starts being immodest, or at least go against the whole no expensive clothing thing?

That is part of the reason why some jurisdictions exercise economia instead of a strict legalism.

Now can somebody answer my kilt question? 

Sorry to you and Schultz, you seem like great guys. But kilts are for goofs. There is your answer.

And what is the "spiritual reason" for women covering their hair. It is arguably the most poorly exegeted Pauline passage.

Gotta remember. A letter to a parish at a particular time. Context is everything.

Honestly, I don't know what a truly spiritual reason would be for women covering their hair, aside from they are told to do so in scripture and they feel more spiritually fulfilled. But other than that I can't think of anything, and that is probably a poor example anyway, like my post was a poor paraphrasing of what my priest said.

Have you ever worn a kilt? I can not begin to describe to you the freedom! It's really versatile as far as clothing goes; keeps you cool in the summer (I wear mine hiking even), warm in the winter (except for really strong breezes), looks good with t-shirts, looks good with a tie and jacket. Wearing one almost always makes the wearer an instant bad@$$ (for example I went to a nice little biker bar wearing my kilt and the one guy who tried to mess with me was promptly put back into his place by the other patrons of the bar). And last but not least zero to naked in under 2 seconds.  ;D
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church
« Reply #118 on: May 06, 2012, 01:50:31 AM »
Just wanted to point something out.

A while back I was having a discussion with my priest and the discussion some how turned to head coverings (I don't know how, as I have no reason to ever wear one despite my propensity to wear a man-skirt on the daily). Any way, my priest told me that he would prefer women to wear a head covering for the right reasons than for the wrong one. The right reason being that it is commanded in the scriptures and the woman was doing it to further her spiritual life. The wrong reason being the materialistic side to the issue. Yes, some women wear head coverings for spiritual reasons and others wear head coverings because everybody else is, and they want to fit in, or have the best and most expensive head scarf. It pretty much boils down to are you following the command for your own spirituality, or are you following it for your own pride?

That is when wearing a head scarf stops being modest and starts being immodest, or at least go against the whole no expensive clothing thing?

That is part of the reason why some jurisdictions exercise economia instead of a strict legalism.

Now can somebody answer my kilt question?  

Sorry to you and Schultz, you seem like great guys. But kilts are for goofs. There is your answer.

And what is the "spiritual reason" for women covering their hair. It is arguably the most poorly exegeted Pauline passage.

Gotta remember. A letter to a parish at a particular time. Context is everything.

Honestly, I don't know what a truly spiritual reason would be for women covering their hair, aside from they are told to do so in scripture and they feel more spiritually fulfilled. But other than that I can't think of anything, and that is probably a poor example anyway, like my post was a poor paraphrasing of what my priest said.

Have you ever worn a kilt? I can not begin to describe to you the freedom! It's really versatile as far as clothing goes; keeps you cool in the summer (I wear mine hiking even), warm in the winter (except for really strong breezes), looks good with t-shirts, looks good with a tie and jacket. Wearing one almost always makes the wearer an instant bad@$$ (for example I went to a nice little biker bar wearing my kilt and the one guy who tried to mess with me was promptly put back into his place by the other patrons of the bar). And last but not least zero to naked in under 2 seconds.  ;D

Granted.

And yet it is goofy. Goofier than shorts.

Men cover their legs and their feet.

But yes I do see the merits of which you pose, but as some who enjoys others covering themselves, especially men covering their legs and feet, I will stand by my statement.

And present company excluded, every guy I ever met who wore a quilt was an attention          . Or worse.



« Last Edit: May 06, 2012, 01:50:53 AM by orthonorm »
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church
« Reply #119 on: May 06, 2012, 01:52:58 AM »
Honestly, I don't know what a truly spiritual reason would be for women covering their hair, aside from they are told to do so in scripture and they feel more spiritually fulfilled. But other than that I can't think of anything, and that is probably a poor example anyway, like my post was a poor paraphrasing of what my priest said.

Weird how the odox harp on the women thing and yet love their Priests and Bishops with theirs heads covered.

Seems like Paul has some words about that as well.

Again, a particular letter to a particular place at a particular time with particular problems.



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Re: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church
« Reply #120 on: May 06, 2012, 02:21:53 AM »
Honestly, I don't know what a truly spiritual reason would be for women covering their hair, aside from they are told to do so in scripture and they feel more spiritually fulfilled. But other than that I can't think of anything, and that is probably a poor example anyway, like my post was a poor paraphrasing of what my priest said.

Weird how the odox harp on the women thing and yet love their Priests and Bishops with theirs heads covered.

Seems like Paul has some words about that as well.

Again, a particular letter to a particular place at a particular time with particular problems.





Laying the kilt issue aside for now...

As to harping on women, well I think it is up to the individual if they want to cover their heads or not. I'm not going to sit/stand and judge this woman or that for wearing or not wearing a head covering. My wife has expressed interest in wearing a head covering when our daughter gets older and wont pull it off her head/play with/destroy the thing.

At my parish some women do wear head coverings and some do not, perhaps the most notable person in my mind who does wear one is the wife of a deacon. It's not her being married to a deacon that makes her notable, but just how she is. Everybody knows her and she is more than willing to help everybody in the parish, whether the be inquirers to converts to cradles.

At the same time the most notable person in my mind who does not wear a head covering is the priest's wife. Again, she is not notable because of her husband's station, but because of the person she is helping to run certain things at the parish and the parishioners.

I've never had the pleasure to see a bishop come to my parish (the military always seems to get in the way) so I have never had the pleasure of meeting a bishop or see one conduct a service with or with out a nifty hat. I have never seen my priest wearing a hat for any reason - at church or out and about. So, that being said I have no position on priests/bishops wearing headgear.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church
« Reply #121 on: May 06, 2012, 02:26:25 AM »
Honestly, I don't know what a truly spiritual reason would be for women covering their hair, aside from they are told to do so in scripture and they feel more spiritually fulfilled. But other than that I can't think of anything, and that is probably a poor example anyway, like my post was a poor paraphrasing of what my priest said.

Weird how the odox harp on the women thing and yet love their Priests and Bishops with theirs heads covered.

Seems like Paul has some words about that as well.

Again, a particular letter to a particular place at a particular time with particular problems.





Laying the kilt issue aside for now...

As to harping on women, well I think it is up to the individual if they want to cover their heads or not. I'm not going to sit/stand and judge this woman or that for wearing or not wearing a head covering. My wife has expressed interest in wearing a head covering when our daughter gets older and wont pull it off her head/play with/destroy the thing.

At my parish some women do wear head coverings and some do not, perhaps the most notable person in my mind who does wear one is the wife of a deacon. It's not her being married to a deacon that makes her notable, but just how she is. Everybody knows her and she is more than willing to help everybody in the parish, whether the be inquirers to converts to cradles.

At the same time the most notable person in my mind who does not wear a head covering is the priest's wife. Again, she is not notable because of her husband's station, but because of the person she is helping to run certain things at the parish and the parishioners.

I've never had the pleasure to see a bishop come to my parish (the military always seems to get in the way) so I have never had the pleasure of meeting a bishop or see one conduct a service with or with out a nifty hat. I have never seen my priest wearing a hat for any reason - at church or out and about. So, that being said I have no position on priests/bishops wearing headgear.

But you do get the point. Priests and Bishops violate Paul's words. And you have folks within and without odoxy insisting on women following those specific ones.

BTW, thank you for your service to our country. Kilt or otherwise.
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Offline dcommini

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Re: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church
« Reply #122 on: May 06, 2012, 02:36:29 AM »
Honestly, I don't know what a truly spiritual reason would be for women covering their hair, aside from they are told to do so in scripture and they feel more spiritually fulfilled. But other than that I can't think of anything, and that is probably a poor example anyway, like my post was a poor paraphrasing of what my priest said.

Weird how the odox harp on the women thing and yet love their Priests and Bishops with theirs heads covered.

Seems like Paul has some words about that as well.

Again, a particular letter to a particular place at a particular time with particular problems.





Laying the kilt issue aside for now...

As to harping on women, well I think it is up to the individual if they want to cover their heads or not. I'm not going to sit/stand and judge this woman or that for wearing or not wearing a head covering. My wife has expressed interest in wearing a head covering when our daughter gets older and wont pull it off her head/play with/destroy the thing.

At my parish some women do wear head coverings and some do not, perhaps the most notable person in my mind who does wear one is the wife of a deacon. It's not her being married to a deacon that makes her notable, but just how she is. Everybody knows her and she is more than willing to help everybody in the parish, whether the be inquirers to converts to cradles.

At the same time the most notable person in my mind who does not wear a head covering is the priest's wife. Again, she is not notable because of her husband's station, but because of the person she is helping to run certain things at the parish and the parishioners.

I've never had the pleasure to see a bishop come to my parish (the military always seems to get in the way) so I have never had the pleasure of meeting a bishop or see one conduct a service with or with out a nifty hat. I have never seen my priest wearing a hat for any reason - at church or out and about. So, that being said I have no position on priests/bishops wearing headgear.

But you do get the point. Priests and Bishops violate Paul's words. And you have folks within and without odoxy insisting on women following those specific ones.

BTW, thank you for your service to our country. Kilt or otherwise.

Yes, I do get the point. I don't know why there is that... hypocrisy? toward that one point. To me it is individual preference. Just like if I want to fast, or break the fast. Or to keep a daily prayer rule or not.

Thank you, though I must say my kilt has no bearing on my military service.  8)
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church
« Reply #123 on: May 06, 2012, 02:52:48 AM »
I think it should be highly preferred that women dress in church with veil and dress as you would see in Slavic or some Arabic churches.
Which Arabic churches? The Holy Synod of Antioch (EO) has actually banned women other than nuns from wearing veils, in order to  avoid giving the impression to Muslims that "hijab also exists in Christianity", as some of them claimed.

Coptic women usually wear headscarves to communion and take off their shoes, but then again, they don't use the Byzantine rite. In Alexandria (EO), you see some women of Coptic background putting on some kind of veil for communion, but none of the natives EOs (Greek or Lebanese) does.

Anyway, anyone who insists on "Biblical dress" should familiarise himself first with the Orthodox understanding of scripture and with God looking at the heart.

As for ROCOR, their dress seems to be more motivated by formalism and following tsarist Russian practice than by biblical literalism.

Offline Cantor Krishnich

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Re: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church
« Reply #124 on: May 06, 2012, 03:38:58 PM »
I think it should be highly preferred that women dress in church with veil and dress as you would see in Slavic or some Arabic churches.
Which Arabic churches? The Holy Synod of Antioch (EO) has actually banned women other than nuns from wearing veils, in order to  avoid giving the impression to Muslims that "hijab also exists in Christianity", as some of them claimed.

Coptic women usually wear headscarves to communion and take off their shoes, but then again, they don't use the Byzantine rite. In Alexandria (EO), you see some women of Coptic background putting on some kind of veil for communion, but none of the natives EOs (Greek or Lebanese) does.

Anyway, anyone who insists on "Biblical dress" should familiarise himself first with the Orthodox understanding of scripture and with God looking at the heart.

As for ROCOR, their dress seems to be more motivated by formalism and following tsarist Russian practice than by biblical literalism.

In the Antiochian church that I went to, most of the Arab women wore a veil (lace mantilla style) to communion. Ive never head of any Orthodox church banning the veil...ever (I doubt that this happened)! The notion that "hijab exists in Christianity" was developed by Western Protestants and a few Catholics but I highly doubt that any Orthodox women were involved although there are very few women who wear the scarf daily (there is a tradition that widowed women wear the veil daily). Oriental Orthodox women wear headscarves or veils to communion.

Whenever Fairuz sings in churches for the Great Feasts, she is always wearing a veil:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pHJMGGhvPQ&feature=player_detailpage     
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church
« Reply #125 on: May 06, 2012, 05:27:33 PM »
In fact, my wife wears a head covering 24/7.

Allahu akbar!

(That's Arabic/Islamic for "God is the greatest".)
« Last Edit: May 06, 2012, 05:33:54 PM by Gorazd »

Offline Gorazd

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Re: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church
« Reply #126 on: May 06, 2012, 05:32:38 PM »
In the Antiochian church that I went to, most of the Arab women wore a veil (lace mantilla style) to communion. Ive never head of any Orthodox church banning the veil...ever (I doubt that this happened)!
I can only tell you what I heard, and in the Antiochian churches I went to (in Europe), not a single woman wore a headscarf, whereas in the Arab parishes in Alexandria and Cairo, not a single Antiochian woman wears a headscarf, only some Copts do.

The notion that "hijab exists in Christianity" was developed by Western Protestants and a few Catholics
You misunderstood. I meant Muslims claiming that there was such a thing as hijab in Christianity as well.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church
« Reply #127 on: May 06, 2012, 05:49:44 PM »
In fact, my wife wears a head covering 24/7.

Allahu akbar!

(That's Arabic/Islamic for "God is the greatest".)

I know nothing about Arabic, well not in any meaningful sense, but I see people (Muslims) gloss that in English as God is greater and make a point of it being a meaningful difference.

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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church
« Reply #128 on: May 06, 2012, 08:06:56 PM »
The regular Arabic adjective has two forms, fa3eel and af3al. fa3il is the normal form, whereas af3al is the increased form. (There also are feminine forms, and words with different morphology, but two point is: whereas English has 3 forms: great, greater, the greatest, Arabic has only two).

For example, "kabir" is fa3eel and means great. Its af3al is "akbar". If it stands alone, it means "the greatest". It only means "greater" if a comparison is induced by the preposition min.

So, "Allahu akbar" means "God is the greatest". But "Allahu akbar min ash-Shaitan", for example, means "God is greater than Satan".

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Re: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church
« Reply #129 on: May 06, 2012, 08:33:50 PM »
Just wanted to point something out.

A while back I was having a discussion with my priest and the discussion some how turned to head coverings (I don't know how, as I have no reason to ever wear one despite my propensity to wear a man-skirt on the daily). Any way, my priest told me that he would prefer women to wear a head covering for the right reasons than for the wrong one. The right reason being that it is commanded in the scriptures and the woman was doing it to further her spiritual life. The wrong reason being the materialistic side to the issue. Yes, some women wear head coverings for spiritual reasons and others wear head coverings because everybody else is, and they want to fit in, or have the best and most expensive head scarf. It pretty much boils down to are you following the command for your own spirituality, or are you following it for your own pride?

That is when wearing a head scarf stops being modest and starts being immodest, or at least go against the whole no expensive clothing thing?

That is part of the reason why some jurisdictions exercise economia instead of a strict legalism.

Now can somebody answer my kilt question?  

Sorry to you and Schultz, you seem like great guys. But kilts are for goofs. There is your answer.

And what is the "spiritual reason" for women covering their hair. It is arguably the most poorly exegeted Pauline passage.

Gotta remember. A letter to a parish at a particular time. Context is everything.

Honestly, I don't know what a truly spiritual reason would be for women covering their hair, aside from they are told to do so in scripture and they feel more spiritually fulfilled. But other than that I can't think of anything, and that is probably a poor example anyway, like my post was a poor paraphrasing of what my priest said.

Have you ever worn a kilt? I can not begin to describe to you the freedom! It's really versatile as far as clothing goes; keeps you cool in the summer (I wear mine hiking even), warm in the winter (except for really strong breezes), looks good with t-shirts, looks good with a tie and jacket. Wearing one almost always makes the wearer an instant bad@$$ (for example I went to a nice little biker bar wearing my kilt and the one guy who tried to mess with me was promptly put back into his place by the other patrons of the bar). And last but not least zero to naked in under 2 seconds.  ;D

Granted.

And yet it is goofy. Goofier than shorts.

Men cover their legs and their feet.

But yes I do see the merits of which you pose, but as some who enjoys others covering themselves, especially men covering their legs and feet, I will stand by my statement.

And present company excluded, every guy I ever met who wore a quilt was an attention          . Or worse.






When I wear a kilt, aside from my knee caps, my legs and feet are covered.  A properly made kilt bisects the knee and kilt hose come up to just below the knee cap.

I only saying this because I know you're a stickler for details.

And any guy I've ever met who had anything to say to me or any other kiltwearer about wearing them was usually a *first word in a Russian punk band that recently caused a stir in Moscow*.   :police:
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Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church
« Reply #130 on: May 07, 2012, 11:54:41 AM »
looks good with t-shirts, looks good with a tie and jacket. Wearing one almost always makes the wearer an instant bad@$$...

At the risk of derailing this highly entertaining thread, I couldn't let this one pass.

No, it doesn't.

(Katherine gets up to get more popcorn)
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church
« Reply #131 on: May 07, 2012, 12:35:23 PM »
Honestly, I don't know what a truly spiritual reason would be for women covering their hair, aside from they are told to do so in scripture and they feel more spiritually fulfilled. But other than that I can't think of anything, and that is probably a poor example anyway, like my post was a poor paraphrasing of what my priest said.

Weird how the odox harp on the women thing and yet love their Priests and Bishops with theirs heads covered.

Seems like Paul has some words about that as well.

Again, a particular letter to a particular place at a particular time with particular problems.





Laying the kilt issue aside for now...

As to harping on women, well I think it is up to the individual if they want to cover their heads or not. I'm not going to sit/stand and judge this woman or that for wearing or not wearing a head covering. My wife has expressed interest in wearing a head covering when our daughter gets older and wont pull it off her head/play with/destroy the thing.

At my parish some women do wear head coverings and some do not, perhaps the most notable person in my mind who does wear one is the wife of a deacon. It's not her being married to a deacon that makes her notable, but just how she is. Everybody knows her and she is more than willing to help everybody in the parish, whether the be inquirers to converts to cradles.

At the same time the most notable person in my mind who does not wear a head covering is the priest's wife. Again, she is not notable because of her husband's station, but because of the person she is helping to run certain things at the parish and the parishioners.

I've never had the pleasure to see a bishop come to my parish (the military always seems to get in the way) so I have never had the pleasure of meeting a bishop or see one conduct a service with or with out a nifty hat. I have never seen my priest wearing a hat for any reason - at church or out and about. So, that being said I have no position on priests/bishops wearing headgear.

But you do get the point. Priests and Bishops violate Paul's words. And you have folks within and without odoxy insisting on women following those specific ones.

BTW, thank you for your service to our country. Kilt or otherwise.

Yes, I do get the point. I don't know why there is that... hypocrisy? toward that one point. To me it is individual preference. Just like if I want to fast, or break the fast. Or to keep a daily prayer rule or not.

Thank you, though I must say my kilt has no bearing on my military service.  8)
only on windy days. :o
« Last Edit: May 07, 2012, 12:35:44 PM by ialmisry »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church
« Reply #132 on: May 07, 2012, 12:40:52 PM »
I think it should be highly preferred that women dress in church with veil and dress as you would see in Slavic or some Arabic churches.
Which Arabic churches? The Holy Synod of Antioch (EO) has actually banned women other than nuns from wearing veils, in order to  avoid giving the impression to Muslims that "hijab also exists in Christianity", as some of them claimed.

Coptic women usually wear headscarves to communion and take off their shoes, but then again, they don't use the Byzantine rite. In Alexandria (EO), you see some women of Coptic background putting on some kind of veil for communion, but none of the natives EOs (Greek or Lebanese) does.

Anyway, anyone who insists on "Biblical dress" should familiarise himself first with the Orthodox understanding of scripture and with God looking at the heart.

As for ROCOR, their dress seems to be more motivated by formalism and following tsarist Russian practice than by biblical literalism.
Yes, I'm afraid there is truth to the last point.

As to the Arabs, it is the same with beards:having a beard amongst Christians is seen as a Muslim thing (the Islamists now placing as great an emphasis on that as the Old Believers).  Shaving can be an evangelical statement.
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Gorazd

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Re: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church
« Reply #133 on: May 07, 2012, 02:39:25 PM »
As to the Arabs, it is the same with beards:having a beard amongst Christians is seen as a Muslim thing
Yes, or as a sign of belonging to the clergy. Arab Priests mostly wear a beard, also some lay theologians.

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church
« Reply #134 on: May 07, 2012, 08:11:36 PM »
Folks, I am locking this thread until further notice as there are couple of issues that I plan to discuss with the moderator team. Second Chance