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Author Topic: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church  (Read 5178 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: May 02, 2012, 09:49:20 PM »

Quote from: yeshuaisiam
Good example of strong Christian women ialmisry.

Lots of native women in Alaska converted, thanks to the Russian Orthodox missionaries of the 1700s onward.
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« Reply #46 on: May 02, 2012, 09:53:04 PM »

So, Yesh, Orthodox only live in America?

America's standards are confined to the last 120 years? You do know we became a separate country in 1776?

Biro, look, the normal reaction to somebody seeing something that they are called out on is often anger.

You are angry at the scriptures and not me, because the scriptures support what I am saying, and you know it.  Plain and simple.
To digress, insult, and conflate the argument, is pointless.   I'm not even attacking you and look at your reaction.  I'm asking why the churches are inconsistent.  There are many Orthodox churches that support what I am saying, and practice it.

Most, American (not native American) Christian dress standards were brought in mainly from Europe.

FYI (Many Americans believe the U.S. was founded on July 4, 1776, when the colonies declared independence, though some argue that it was March 1, 1781, when the Articles of Confederation were ratified, and yet others claim it wasn't until September 3, 1783, which was when Great Britain recognized American independence.)
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« Reply #47 on: May 02, 2012, 09:54:37 PM »

Quote from: yeshuaisiam

You are angry at the scriptures and not me, because the scriptures support what I am saying, and you know it.

No.



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« Reply #48 on: May 02, 2012, 09:56:36 PM »

Quote from: yeshuaisiam
Good example of strong Christian women ialmisry.

Lots of native women in Alaska converted, thanks to the Russian Orthodox missionaries of the 1700s onward.

That's good!  Excellent!  Were they Eskimo natives?  I'd love to read up on that.

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« Reply #49 on: May 02, 2012, 09:59:29 PM »

Quote from: yeshuaisiam

You are angry at the scriptures and not me, because the scriptures support what I am saying, and you know it.

No.

So you don't agree that we should not be wearing expensive clothes, gold, jewels, "costly things", head coverings, and the proper clothes for the right gender in church?

Many Orthodox Christians agree with it.  I'm not picking on you specifically - I'm trying to figure out why the inconsistency because it was commanded in the scriptures.
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« Reply #50 on: May 02, 2012, 10:13:00 PM »

Quote from: yeshuaisiam

You are angry at the scriptures and not me, because the scriptures support what I am saying, and you know it.

No.

So you don't agree that we should not be wearing expensive clothes, gold, jewels, "costly things", head coverings, and the proper clothes for the right gender in church?

Many Orthodox Christians agree with it.  I'm not picking on you specifically - I'm trying to figure out why the inconsistency because it was commanded in the scriptures.
Then I expect a picture of you in a plain dress.  In the snow.
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« Reply #51 on: May 02, 2012, 10:30:50 PM »

Ingalls family, typical American dress -
Not a single one has her head covered.

While one can not assert this with any degree of certainty as time travel has yet to be invented, I sort of think that had this family paraded into Jerusalem at the time of the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Christ dressed and coiffed as in this old picture, they would not have 'fit in' and likely would have been rounded up by Pilate's Centurions with the approval of the Sadducees.
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« Reply #52 on: May 02, 2012, 10:32:37 PM »

Quote from: yeshuaisiam

You are angry at the scriptures and not me, because the scriptures support what I am saying, and you know it.

No.

So you don't agree that we should not be wearing expensive clothes, gold, jewels, "costly things", head coverings, and the proper clothes for the right gender in church?

Many Orthodox Christians agree with it.  I'm not picking on you specifically - I'm trying to figure out why the inconsistency because it was commanded in the scriptures.
Then I expect a picture of you in a plain dress.  In the snow.

Heh, really the snow argument isn't right anyway.  Women who often wear dresses know that in cold weather they wear thick pantaloons, sweats under the dresses, etc.   
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« Reply #53 on: May 02, 2012, 10:40:00 PM »

Quote from: yeshuaisiam

You are angry at the scriptures and not me, because the scriptures support what I am saying, and you know it.

No.

So you don't agree that we should not be wearing expensive clothes, gold, jewels, "costly things", head coverings, and the proper clothes for the right gender in church?

Many Orthodox Christians agree with it.  I'm not picking on you specifically - I'm trying to figure out why the inconsistency because it was commanded in the scriptures.
Then I expect a picture of you in a plain dress.  In the snow.

Heh, really the snow argument isn't right anyway.  Women who often wear dresses know that in cold weather they wear thick pantaloons, sweats under the dresses, etc.   
PANTS!!!!!!!!!PANTS!!!!!!!!!PANTS!!!!!!!!!PANTS!!!!!!!!!PANTS!!!!!!!!!PANTS!!!!!!!!!PANTS!!!!!!!!!PANTS!!!!!!!!!PANTS!!!!!!!!!PANTS!!!!!!!!!PANTS!!!!!!!!!PANTS!!!!!!!!!PANTS!!!!!!!!!PANTS!!!!!!!!!PANTS!!!!!!!!!PANTS!!!!!!!!!PANTS!!!!!!!!!PANTS!!!!!!!!!PANTS
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« Reply #54 on: May 02, 2012, 11:01:41 PM »

Quote from: yeshuaisiam

You are angry at the scriptures and not me, because the scriptures support what I am saying, and you know it.

No.

So you don't agree that we should not be wearing expensive clothes, gold, jewels, "costly things", head coverings, and the proper clothes for the right gender in church?

Many Orthodox Christians agree with it.  I'm not picking on you specifically - I'm trying to figure out why the inconsistency because it was commanded in the scriptures.

Who sets the standard for 'costly'?

Again, you've said nothing about the menfolk who wear jewelry, and we've got a few of those.

If a woman wears a plastic necklace that her daughter made for her in crafts class, is that a problem?
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« Reply #55 on: May 02, 2012, 11:12:47 PM »

Quote from: yeshuaisiam
Good example of strong Christian women ialmisry.

Lots of native women in Alaska converted, thanks to the Russian Orthodox missionaries of the 1700s onward.

That's good!  Excellent!  Were they Eskimo natives?  I'd love to read up on that.



For those who dont already know, the Orthodox Church in America started with mission activity by the Russians during the 1700s (while Alaska was a Russian colony). Yes the first converts to Orthodoxy in America were Alaskan Natives. That is the reason why most Orthodox churches in Alaska have many Native families. Ive even heard that a few of the Russian Old Believers even have some Natives in their parishes (surprisingly). The Orthodox Church remains the largest Christian church in Alaska.
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« Reply #56 on: May 02, 2012, 11:21:42 PM »

Quote from: yeshuaisiam

You are angry at the scriptures and not me, because the scriptures support what I am saying, and you know it.

No.

So you don't agree that we should not be wearing expensive clothes, gold, jewels, "costly things", head coverings, and the proper clothes for the right gender in church?

Many Orthodox Christians agree with it.  I'm not picking on you specifically - I'm trying to figure out why the inconsistency because it was commanded in the scriptures.

Who sets the standard for 'costly'?

Again, you've said nothing about the menfolk who wear jewelry, and we've got a few of those.

If a woman wears a plastic necklace that her daughter made for her in crafts class, is that a problem?

Oh absolutely men do this, and I was not trying to pass it off as only women.   Men do it all the time.  I would see a guy wearing expensive jewelry, rings, etc... A Rolex... as not being in tune with scripture.

I don't know what the church would see of a plastic necklace.

But really my question was not directed at "questioning the church", or "questioning anybody in particular", or even "directly judging what should be or not be worn".   My question was within the inconsistency of the Orthodox church body that is in communion with one another when based in scriptural backing.

Many women in the OCA do not wear head coverings in church, while women in ROCOR do, and are pretty much required to if they are a member of their church.   Both are in communion together (as far as I know unless something has changed) yet the scriptures seem more followed in one vs. the other church.

I also wanted to make it clear that its not exactly like comparing "churchy issues" like the calendar, as those are not scriptural commands.

It's a question about the inconsistencies and why it is that way.


Biro, also I may be reading into your statement wrong, but as you know, these scriptures do generally apply toward women more, and it is a struggle for women as clothing is generally more important to women.   (you know, many men would just wear an old T shirt and junky jeans to their wedding LOL because it doesn't matter)  For women these scriptures also focus on modesty, the hair  (women's glory).   Also I really believe that men often physically lust for women more than women lust for men (physically by "looking").

However, http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/04/russian-orthodox-church-apologizes-for-photoshop-stunt/ a patriarch with a $30,000 watch is something I would consider "costly".   They even tried to hide it.   There is a good example of a male doing wrong as well.   Expensive suits, rolex watches, etc., could all be considered costly on men.
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« Reply #57 on: May 02, 2012, 11:25:05 PM »

It would be very nice to see every Orthodox woman in veil and dress during Church services but I dont think we should attack them for not dressing according to the Quran Shocked I meant Bible. I think it should be highly preferred that women dress in church with veil and dress as you would see in Slavic or some Arabic churches. My dilemma is that I LOVE Byzantine chant (especially in Arabic) but I also love the pewless churches and veiled women. So when people ask what jurisdiction I am I just say Orthodox.
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« Reply #58 on: May 03, 2012, 04:46:26 PM »

It would be very nice to see every Orthodox woman in veil and dress during Church services but I dont think we should attack them for not dressing according to the Quran Shocked I meant Bible. I think it should be highly preferred that women dress in church with veil and dress as you would see in Slavic or some Arabic churches. My dilemma is that I LOVE Byzantine chant (especially in Arabic) but I also love the pewless churches and veiled women. So when people ask what jurisdiction I am I just say Orthodox.

I know, and the thread wasn't about attacking anybody. ?   Of course, many posters here immediately get defensive as if it is a personal attack, but its not.   They are too use to beating around the bush rather than addressing important questions at hand.   The thread was asking a comparison between a couple of American groups (OCA & GOA), to other EO groups such as ROCOR, who generally follow the scriptures in accordance to dress.   

ROCOR would not agree with the way many of the parishoners dress.   This is a scriptural issue to, not a latter church fight over calendars etc.
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« Reply #59 on: May 03, 2012, 04:49:58 PM »

It would be very nice to see every Orthodox woman in veil and dress during Church services but I dont think we shouldnt attack them for not dressing according to the Quran Shocked I meant Bible. I think it should be highly preferred that women dress in church with veil and dress as you would see in Slavic or some Arabic churches. My dilemma is that I LOVE Byzantine chant (especially in Arabic) but I also love the pewless churches and veiled women. So when people ask what jurisdiction I am I just say Orthodox.

 Shocked Typo alert! I meant to say that we shouldnt attack people  Smiley
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« Reply #60 on: May 03, 2012, 04:57:09 PM »

It would be very nice to see every Orthodox woman in veil and dress during Church services but I dont think we should attack them for not dressing according to the Quran Shocked I meant Bible. I think it should be highly preferred that women dress in church with veil and dress as you would see in Slavic or some Arabic churches. My dilemma is that I LOVE Byzantine chant (especially in Arabic) but I also love the pewless churches and veiled women. So when people ask what jurisdiction I am I just say Orthodox.

I know, and the thread wasn't about attacking anybody. ?   Of course, many posters here immediately get defensive as if it is a personal attack, but its not.   They are too use to beating around the bush rather than addressing important questions at hand.   The thread was asking a comparison between a couple of American groups (OCA & GOA), to other EO groups such as ROCOR, who generally follow the scriptures in accordance to dress.   

ROCOR would not agree with the way many of the parishoners dress.   This is a scriptural issue to, not a latter church fight over calendars etc.
You have yet to show us pants in the Bible.
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« Reply #61 on: May 03, 2012, 06:03:44 PM »

It would be very nice to see every Orthodox woman in veil and dress during Church services but I dont think we should attack them for not dressing according to the Quran Shocked I meant Bible. I think it should be highly preferred that women dress in church with veil and dress as you would see in Slavic or some Arabic churches. My dilemma is that I LOVE Byzantine chant (especially in Arabic) but I also love the pewless churches and veiled women. So when people ask what jurisdiction I am I just say Orthodox.

I know, and the thread wasn't about attacking anybody. ?   Of course, many posters here immediately get defensive as if it is a personal attack, but its not.   They are too use to beating around the bush rather than addressing important questions at hand.   The thread was asking a comparison between a couple of American groups (OCA & GOA), to other EO groups such as ROCOR, who generally follow the scriptures in accordance to dress.

Why are you so focused on ROCOR?  

ROCOR would not agree with the way many of the parishoners dress.   This is a scriptural issue to, not a latter church fight over calendars etc.

If someone with full sleeve tattoos showed up at a ROCOR Church, would he/she be turned away?  We've beaten tattoos and body art to death on this forum; however, if your group would turn away such an individual - that would be nice to know.
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« Reply #62 on: May 03, 2012, 09:13:20 PM »

It would be very nice to see every Orthodox woman in veil and dress during Church services but I dont think we should attack them for not dressing according to the Quran Shocked I meant Bible. I think it should be highly preferred that women dress in church with veil and dress as you would see in Slavic or some Arabic churches. My dilemma is that I LOVE Byzantine chant (especially in Arabic) but I also love the pewless churches and veiled women. So when people ask what jurisdiction I am I just say Orthodox.

I know, and the thread wasn't about attacking anybody. ?   Of course, many posters here immediately get defensive as if it is a personal attack, but its not.   They are too use to beating around the bush rather than addressing important questions at hand.   The thread was asking a comparison between a couple of American groups (OCA & GOA), to other EO groups such as ROCOR, who generally follow the scriptures in accordance to dress.   

ROCOR would not agree with the way many of the parishoners dress.   This is a scriptural issue to, not a latter church fight over calendars etc.
You have yet to show us pants in the Bible.

Ask ROCOR.
So why would ROCOR disagree with OCA?  Quit pointing this at me, its the churches that disagree.   You digress to point a finger so you can troll your way out of actually answering something.
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« Reply #63 on: May 03, 2012, 09:16:21 PM »

It would be very nice to see every Orthodox woman in veil and dress during Church services but I dont think we should attack them for not dressing according to the Quran Shocked I meant Bible. I think it should be highly preferred that women dress in church with veil and dress as you would see in Slavic or some Arabic churches. My dilemma is that I LOVE Byzantine chant (especially in Arabic) but I also love the pewless churches and veiled women. So when people ask what jurisdiction I am I just say Orthodox.

I know, and the thread wasn't about attacking anybody. ?   Of course, many posters here immediately get defensive as if it is a personal attack, but its not.   They are too use to beating around the bush rather than addressing important questions at hand.   The thread was asking a comparison between a couple of American groups (OCA & GOA), to other EO groups such as ROCOR, who generally follow the scriptures in accordance to dress.

Why are you so focused on ROCOR?  

ROCOR would not agree with the way many of the parishoners dress.   This is a scriptural issue to, not a latter church fight over calendars etc.

If someone with full sleeve tattoos showed up at a ROCOR Church, would he/she be turned away?  We've beaten tattoos and body art to death on this forum; however, if your group would turn away such an individual - that would be nice to know.

Because ROCOR is in America.
ROCOR requires the women to wear head coverings in church.
OCA does not.
GOA does not.

Sorry but ROCOR is pretty important.  I'm curious why the churches are not on par on this.

I don't know if somebody with a full sleeve of tattoos showed up if they would be turned away.  I could imagine if that person were to be baptized into the church that it would be requested they at least cover it up... But that's only a guess.   Not the point at all though of my thread.
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« Reply #64 on: May 03, 2012, 09:20:47 PM »

ROCOR really ain't important. Except as an venue for those belonging to their mother body: The Society for Creative Anachronism.



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« Reply #65 on: May 03, 2012, 11:26:39 PM »

It would be very nice to see every Orthodox woman in veil and dress during Church services but I dont think we should attack them for not dressing according to the Quran Shocked I meant Bible. I think it should be highly preferred that women dress in church with veil and dress as you would see in Slavic or some Arabic churches. My dilemma is that I LOVE Byzantine chant (especially in Arabic) but I also love the pewless churches and veiled women. So when people ask what jurisdiction I am I just say Orthodox.

I know, and the thread wasn't about attacking anybody. ?   Of course, many posters here immediately get defensive as if it is a personal attack, but its not.   They are too use to beating around the bush rather than addressing important questions at hand.   The thread was asking a comparison between a couple of American groups (OCA & GOA), to other EO groups such as ROCOR, who generally follow the scriptures in accordance to dress.

Why are you so focused on ROCOR?  

ROCOR would not agree with the way many of the parishoners dress.   This is a scriptural issue to, not a latter church fight over calendars etc.

If someone with full sleeve tattoos showed up at a ROCOR Church, would he/she be turned away?  We've beaten tattoos and body art to death on this forum; however, if your group would turn away such an individual - that would be nice to know.

Because ROCOR is in America.
ROCOR requires the women to wear head coverings in church.

Is it listed in the ROCOR Charter?  When ROCOR reunited with Moscow, did the terms of the agreement include that women must wear head coverings?  Where is the basis for the legalism other than what Paul said?

OCA does not.
GOA does not.

Sorry but ROCOR is pretty important.  I'm curious why the churches are not on par on this.

Because head coverings aren't that important.  The Church respects free will and if women choose not to wear head coverings, that ought to be OK.

I don't know if somebody with a full sleeve of tattoos showed up if they would be turned away.  I could imagine if that person were to be baptized into the church that it would be requested they at least cover it up... But that's only a guess.   Not the point at all though of my thread.

Legalism - that is my point.  You state that ROCOR is a legalist Church in that women have to wear head coverings while women in other Orthodox jurisdictions do not wear head coverings.
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« Reply #66 on: May 04, 2012, 12:00:58 AM »

When the Bible was written, NO ONE wore pants.  Why can men wear them now?

Actually Celts, Germans, Scytians, Sarmatians and the Persian peoples all did.
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« Reply #67 on: May 04, 2012, 12:52:56 AM »

When the Bible was written, NO ONE wore pants.  Why can men wear them now?

Actually Celts, Germans, Scytians, Sarmatians and the Persian peoples all did.

Lawl at Celts and Germans.
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« Reply #68 on: May 04, 2012, 01:03:58 AM »

When the Bible was written, NO ONE wore pants.

Thread over. Isa wins again.

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« Reply #69 on: May 04, 2012, 01:13:51 AM »

When the Bible was written, NO ONE wore pants.  Why can men wear them now?

Actually Celts, Germans, Scytians, Sarmatians and the Persian peoples all did.
I was waiting for someone to bring up the Celts, Germans, Scytians, Sarmatians and Iranians.

They were out on the fringe of the consciousness of Biblical society.  If the Bible writers were aware of them (and we don't know they were), they might have dismissed them with the other strange things strange people do.  Sort of how we look at people who wear robes now.
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« Reply #70 on: May 04, 2012, 01:23:48 AM »

When the Bible was written, NO ONE wore pants.  Why can men wear them now?

Actually Celts, Germans, Scytians, Sarmatians and the Persian peoples all did.
I was waiting for someone to bring up the Celts, Germans, Scytians, Sarmatians and Iranians.

They were out on the fringe of the consciousness of Biblical society.  If the Bible writers were aware of them (and we don't know they were), they might have dismissed them with the other strange things strange people do.  Sort of how we look at people who wear robes now.

The Greeks were certainly scandalised by the Persian propensity to wear pants.
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« Reply #71 on: May 04, 2012, 01:25:49 AM »

It would be very nice to see every Orthodox woman in veil and dress during Church services but I dont think we should attack them for not dressing according to the Quran Shocked I meant Bible. I think it should be highly preferred that women dress in church with veil and dress as you would see in Slavic or some Arabic churches. My dilemma is that I LOVE Byzantine chant (especially in Arabic) but I also love the pewless churches and veiled women. So when people ask what jurisdiction I am I just say Orthodox.

I know, and the thread wasn't about attacking anybody. ?   Of course, many posters here immediately get defensive as if it is a personal attack, but its not.   They are too use to beating around the bush rather than addressing important questions at hand.   The thread was asking a comparison between a couple of American groups (OCA & GOA), to other EO groups such as ROCOR, who generally follow the scriptures in accordance to dress.   

ROCOR would not agree with the way many of the parishoners dress.   This is a scriptural issue to, not a latter church fight over calendars etc.
You have yet to show us pants in the Bible.

Ask ROCOR.
So why would ROCOR disagree with OCA?  Quit pointing this at me, its the churches that disagree.   You digress to point a finger so you can troll your way out of actually answering something.
It's not important.

There.

There's your answer.
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« Reply #72 on: May 04, 2012, 01:27:44 AM »

It would be very nice to see every Orthodox woman in veil and dress during Church services but I dont think we should attack them for not dressing according to the Quran Shocked I meant Bible. I think it should be highly preferred that women dress in church with veil and dress as you would see in Slavic or some Arabic churches. My dilemma is that I LOVE Byzantine chant (especially in Arabic) but I also love the pewless churches and veiled women. So when people ask what jurisdiction I am I just say Orthodox.

I know, and the thread wasn't about attacking anybody. ?   Of course, many posters here immediately get defensive as if it is a personal attack, but its not.   They are too use to beating around the bush rather than addressing important questions at hand.   The thread was asking a comparison between a couple of American groups (OCA & GOA), to other EO groups such as ROCOR, who generally follow the scriptures in accordance to dress.

Why are you so focused on ROCOR?  

ROCOR would not agree with the way many of the parishoners dress.   This is a scriptural issue to, not a latter church fight over calendars etc.

If someone with full sleeve tattoos showed up at a ROCOR Church, would he/she be turned away?  We've beaten tattoos and body art to death on this forum; however, if your group would turn away such an individual - that would be nice to know.

Because ROCOR is in America.
ROCOR requires the women to wear head coverings in church.
OCA does not.
GOA does not.

Sorry but ROCOR is pretty important.  I'm curious why the churches are not on par on this.
ROCOR is important.
OCA is important.
GOA is important.

Pant wearing vs. dress wearing is not important.
I don't know if somebody with a full sleeve of tattoos showed up if they would be turned away.  I could imagine if that person were to be baptized into the church that it would be requested they at least cover it up... But that's only a guess.   Not the point at all though of my thread.
Why not?  Tattoos are a no no under the Old Law.
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« Reply #73 on: May 04, 2012, 03:13:54 AM »

Again...I dont think that it should be required but HIGHLY preferred. 
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« Reply #74 on: May 04, 2012, 04:21:37 AM »

So, even though this question has been asked before, maybe if I re-word it you could give an answer.

Would it be permissible, to you, for me to wear my kilt to church? And I'm not talking about how I normally wear my kilt with a t-shirt and black boots, but with a jacket, vest, button-up shirt and tie, brogues, and kilt hose? Would the kilt just be a no since its a skirt, even though in the way it is being worn it couldn't be mistaken for women's clothing?

What about women's pant suits? Most of the pants that I have ever seen for females is of a slightly different style than those for men. Even though they are still pants, they are manufactured, styled, and marketed for the different sexes. I don't know too many people who will mistakenly pick up pants made for the opposite sex to wear.

When the Bible was written, NO ONE wore pants.  Why can men wear them now?

Actually Celts, Germans, Scytians, Sarmatians and the Persian peoples all did.

Lawl at Celts and Germans.

Even though most people think of Celts wearing kilts (these days at least) the Celts were noted for wearing pants (breecs I believed they were called) back during the Roman era. In fact the strongest evidence suggests that kilts were not worn until perhaps the mid to late 16th century, but possibly slightly before in small isolated areas. If you want references I'll have to scrounge them up, but I will try to provide them upon request.
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« Reply #75 on: May 04, 2012, 10:08:14 AM »

...the proper clothes for the right gender in church?

Honestly I think that's the point that you're not getting and the point that is at issue here. Proper clothes for the right gender are not Biblical, but rather cultural and historical.

After all, do you wear a robe and sandals to church on Sunday?

(and FWIW, I would probably fufill all your criteria for proper Biblical dress - long skirt, headcovering. Although I do wear a cross, wristwatch and earrings, I buy them at Walmart or thrift stores, and actually have an allergy to 14K gold, so no expensive jewelry.)
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« Reply #76 on: May 04, 2012, 10:21:13 AM »

My dilemma is that I LOVE Byzantine chant (especially in Arabic) but I also love the pewless churches and veiled women.

You can either go to a Greek/Arabic church and pray with your eyes closed, or go to a Russian church and pray with your fingers in your ears.
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« Reply #77 on: May 04, 2012, 03:48:42 PM »

It would be very nice to see every Orthodox woman in veil and dress during Church services but I dont think we should attack them for not dressing according to the Quran Shocked I meant Bible. I think it should be highly preferred that women dress in church with veil and dress as you would see in Slavic or some Arabic churches. My dilemma is that I LOVE Byzantine chant (especially in Arabic) but I also love the pewless churches and veiled women. So when people ask what jurisdiction I am I just say Orthodox.

I know, and the thread wasn't about attacking anybody. ?   Of course, many posters here immediately get defensive as if it is a personal attack, but its not.   They are too use to beating around the bush rather than addressing important questions at hand.   The thread was asking a comparison between a couple of American groups (OCA & GOA), to other EO groups such as ROCOR, who generally follow the scriptures in accordance to dress.   

ROCOR would not agree with the way many of the parishoners dress.   This is a scriptural issue to, not a latter church fight over calendars etc.
You have yet to show us pants in the Bible.

Ask ROCOR.
So why would ROCOR disagree with OCA?  Quit pointing this at me, its the churches that disagree.   You digress to point a finger so you can troll your way out of actually answering something.
It's not important.

There.

There's your answer.

Okay.
Sorry the scriptures in my OP are not important to you.
Interesting you would say that some EO churches find important are "not important".

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« Reply #78 on: May 04, 2012, 03:58:34 PM »

When the Bible was written, NO ONE wore pants.

Thread over. Isa wins again.


I know, the funniest thing about it, was that he didn't directly answer the question, but rather attacked a point, somebody saw it not in the context of what I wrote about it, and then it was declared over.

Typical here on OC.net.   A good question, somebody can't answer.  A side swiped 1 liner, declaration of over.
This wasn't even something that can be won.

Really sometimes I do question why I come here, and the immaturity that is presented. 

I was comparing EO to EO church.

Next thing I know, it goes to a pants argument in the cold.
Biblical writers wore robes.
Nobody really addressed the gold or expensive clothes.
Nobody answered head coverings, and why it is not enforced in OCA but is in ROCOR.

Then told "It's not important" by isa, yet it was admitted that ROCOR, OCA, and GOA is important.  LOL.   Of course, the issues are important to ROCOR, which obviously is in communion with the other two...

I've seen more straightforward answers from protestants.  At least they'll tell you they don't know, and not try to get you with the "ah ha" of digression.   You know, I can live with "I don't knows" - because "I don't know either"- that's why I was asking the question.


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« Reply #79 on: May 04, 2012, 04:15:17 PM »


When the Bible was written, NO ONE wore pants.

Thread over. Isa wins again.


I know, the funniest thing about it, was that he didn't directly answer the question, but rather attacked a point, somebody saw it not in the context of what I wrote about it, and then it was declared over.

Typical here on OC.net.   A good question, somebody can't answer.  A side swiped 1 liner, declaration of over.
This wasn't even something that can be won.

Really sometimes I do question why I come here, and the immaturity that is presented. 

I was comparing EO to EO church.

Next thing I know, it goes to a pants argument in the cold.
Biblical writers wore robes.
Nobody really addressed the gold or expensive clothes.
Nobody answered head coverings, and why it is not enforced in OCA but is in ROCOR.

Then told "It's not important" by isa, yet it was admitted that ROCOR, OCA, and GOA is important.  LOL.   Of course, the issues are important to ROCOR, which obviously is in communion with the other two...

I've seen more straightforward answers from protestants.  At least they'll tell you they don't know, and not try to get you with the "ah ha" of digression.   You know, I can live with "I don't knows" - because "I don't know either"- that's why I was asking the question.




ROCOR is more traditional in it's leanings. A lot of it has to do with after the Bolshevik Revolution the Russian Church Abroad wanted to maintain the whole of the Russian Orthodox way of life in the face of Soviet oppression.

Modern is not in ROCOR's vocabulary.

You will find headscarves and dresses in other jurisdictions as well though. Just in ROCOR it's standard practice.
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« Reply #80 on: May 04, 2012, 05:20:53 PM »

ROCOR is more traditional in it's leanings.

You are looking for the word I gave you anachronistic. There is nothing "traditional" about not only the practice moreover how it is played out. Literally played.

It is one of those fine things about tradition, once something is seen to be tradition, it ceases to be tradition as such at the very moment.

Traditionalists are always antithetical to authentic tradition. Thankfully, tradition still remains in the handing down, more precisely the giving over. The given is always there, whether it is asked for or not. It is always appropriated whether it is wanted or not.

That which is most given and thus most received remains the least conspicuous.

That which is not given at all and thus not received, no matter how much one might take what is offered, is the most conspicuous, contentious, and loudest about us.

EDIT: Or something like that.



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« Reply #81 on: May 04, 2012, 05:42:38 PM »

It's also important to remember that the Church does adapt for its various cultures. An African Orthodox Church would stand out like a sore thumb here in the States with its drums and dancing (and those women don't wear head covers and some people don't even wear shoes). Yes, America is a materialistic culture and that is unfortunately reflected in the parishes. But, I would start a crusade on women wearing lipstick before I would on oversized earrings.
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« Reply #82 on: May 04, 2012, 05:47:14 PM »

Last year, during the Supplications, the priest simply told the women that if they had lipstick, they were to tab it off before reverencing the icon. I wasn't wearing any, so I didn't have to worry. A couple people took out tissues and did what they had to do.

It's not something to turn into a federal case.
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« Reply #83 on: May 04, 2012, 05:47:20 PM »

I am conspicuous, contentious, and loud. Roll Eyes

Quote
It is one of those fine things about tradition, once something is seen to be tradition, it ceases to be tradition as such at the very moment.

Just listen to orthonorm. He is the standard-bearer of tradition. Oh wait, I shouldn't have said that. Now he's not.

Scripture gives the tradition of wearing headscarves. What would you call the practice if it is not traditional? Archaic? Out of fashion?

My girlfriend wears a headscarf and skirt to the Antiochian church we go to for Vespers during the week. She was brought up in Russia to wear it to church. She is not being conspicuous, contentious, or loud. Whether what is given and most received stands out or whether it blends in does not matter. What matters is the reason behind it, good sir.

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« Reply #84 on: May 04, 2012, 06:21:42 PM »

I am conspicuous, contentious, and loud. Roll Eyes

Quote
It is one of those fine things about tradition, once something is seen to be tradition, it ceases to be tradition as such at the very moment.

Just listen to orthonorm. He is the standard-bearer of tradition. Oh wait, I shouldn't have said that. Now he's not.

Scripture gives the tradition of wearing headscarves. What would you call the practice if it is not traditional? Archaic? Out of fashion?

My girlfriend wears a headscarf and skirt to the Antiochian church we go to for Vespers during the week. She was brought up in Russia to wear it to church. She is not being conspicuous, contentious, or loud. Whether what is given and most received stands out or whether it blends in does not matter. What matters is the reason behind it, good sir.



You speak of what you don't understand when it comes to that Scripture. That's why it is a problem for you. Don't worry most don't understand it either.

And you also obviously didn't understand what I wrote. Again, most don't. So don't worry.

Keep finding the manufactured and ignore tradition. Again, that's what most do.

The given will remain. It requires no subjective assent or dissent.

Tradition is not something that ever needs protecting or promulgating.
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« Reply #85 on: May 04, 2012, 07:35:41 PM »

Quote
ROCOR is more traditional in it's leanings. A lot of it has to do with after the Bolshevik Revolution the Russian Church Abroad wanted to maintain the whole of the Russian Orthodox way of life in the face of Soviet oppression.

Modern is not in ROCOR's vocabulary.

You will find headscarves and dresses in other jurisdictions as well though. Just in ROCOR it's standard practice.

I respect ROCOR a lot for this.   I believe firmly that ROCOR is following the scriptures as my OP put.   I also have seen head coverings in other jurisdictions including in America.  However, the OCA and GOA do seem to go off course with tradition and scripture, which is why I am curious that they do.  Now of course, this does not include all, but some.  I've seen many in scarves in both OCA and GOA, but it baffles me as to why they don't "say something" at least, to revert back to tradition.

Thanks for your answer.
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« Reply #86 on: May 04, 2012, 07:36:37 PM »

"How I hate the traditions of men."

Remember who said that?
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« Reply #87 on: May 04, 2012, 07:41:59 PM »

It's also important to remember that the Church does adapt for its various cultures. An African Orthodox Church would stand out like a sore thumb here in the States with its drums and dancing (and those women don't wear head covers and some people don't even wear shoes). Yes, America is a materialistic culture and that is unfortunately reflected in the parishes. But, I would start a crusade on women wearing lipstick before I would on oversized earrings.

I do agree with the adaptation.  Greek would have more leaning to Greek, Russian more Russian, etc.   But does cultural leanings come before the scriptures themselves?

In an Analogy, if somebody wore revealing cleavage to an OCA church let's say in... California.  From the scriptures telling women to dress modestly, the priest should at least address the attire as inappropriate.  As the scriptures tell to dress modestly, even though one could argue the culture of California is "cleavage".

In our culture, women do not typically cover for religious reasons, however the commands of the scripture tell them to.

I'm curious if the OCA or GOA leave it perhaps up to the individual to decide this?
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« Reply #88 on: May 04, 2012, 07:44:54 PM »

I am conspicuous, contentious, and loud. Roll Eyes

Quote
It is one of those fine things about tradition, once something is seen to be tradition, it ceases to be tradition as such at the very moment.

Just listen to orthonorm. He is the standard-bearer of tradition. Oh wait, I shouldn't have said that. Now he's not.

Scripture gives the tradition of wearing headscarves. What would you call the practice if it is not traditional? Archaic? Out of fashion?

My girlfriend wears a headscarf and skirt to the Antiochian church we go to for Vespers during the week. She was brought up in Russia to wear it to church. She is not being conspicuous, contentious, or loud. Whether what is given and most received stands out or whether it blends in does not matter. What matters is the reason behind it, good sir.



Of course, I believe it is done both out of tradition, but also as a command.   Being uncovered to a woman is the same as being shorn.  Her hair is her glory.   I really respect when EO churches basically instruct women on this.
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« Reply #89 on: May 04, 2012, 07:48:03 PM »

St. Paul is not the Savior. You do know that, don't you?
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