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Author Topic: Biblical dress in the Eastern Orthodox Church  (Read 4603 times) Average Rating: 0
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yeshuaisiam
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« on: May 02, 2012, 08:27:03 PM »

Many of the people who are part of the Eastern Orthodox Church body DO dress biblically, at least from what we can tell from the scriptures.  So my question is NOT directed at the churches that follow the scripture.  So unfortunately, that leads me to have to point fingers and be specific.

OCA churches ---- **I am NOT picking on the parish as many are similar, where half the women do dress fairly biblically** -- http://athanasiusoca.org/pictures/theophany/2007/  This is fairly consistent in the OCA churches. 

Greek Orthodox in America churches - --*** again I'm not picking on the parish in the Greek Orthodox church specifically*** http://www.stpauldenison.org/photos.html

I'm questioning why the dress is not more consistently biblical?  (is it kind of like the beards / calendar issue?)  I often wondered this because at one point we switched from the OCA to ROCOR and it was 100% biblical dress.   

Anyway, here are some scriptures on biblical dress, that I would be interested on a discussion about the dress, consistency, etc.

First we are supposed to dress modest (usually followed) and not expensive (not often followed), as the scriptures command - and also not wear gold or jewels etc. (not followed)

1 Timothy 2:9
Likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire.

1 Peter 3:3-4
Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear— but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious.

1 Samuel 16:7
But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.”


It is also "Womanly" and "Manly" to adorn in traditional garments for their right gender.  This is both followed and not followed in the churches.  Women often wear pants, which is only modern in (at least in America) for women to wear.   Most of our grandmothers & great grandmothers grew up in dresses only.

Deuteronomy 22:5
“A woman shall not wear a man's garment, nor shall a man put on a woman's cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God.

Many of the women do not wear head coverings, as the icons depict, but rather wear modern hair do's to church.  Biblical women always wore head coverings, because we are to "pray without ceasing".
1 Corinthians 11 5-6  - But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

1 Thessalonians 5:17 - Pray without ceasing.   

So I'm not directly attacking, but wondering why this is not a consistent issues stressed in these churches.  Unlike "trivial" arguments, such as the calendar which is argued in the churches, these are scriptures.  I'm not sure, but the only thing I can think of is that these women are unaware of the scripture, or the churches have not taught them the scriptures, or are too "scared" (dunno the right word) to teach them these scriptures in fear of the parishoners getting mad or something.

Why such a loss in consistency?

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« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2012, 08:37:14 PM »

Many of the people who are part of the Eastern Orthodox Church body DO dress biblically, at least from what we can tell from the scriptures.  So my question is NOT directed at the churches that follow the scripture.  So unfortunately, that leads me to have to point fingers and be specific.

OCA churches ---- **I am NOT picking on the parish as many are similar, where half the women do dress fairly biblically** -- http://athanasiusoca.org/pictures/theophany/2007/  This is fairly consistent in the OCA churches. 

Greek Orthodox in America churches - --*** again I'm not picking on the parish in the Greek Orthodox church specifically*** http://www.stpauldenison.org/photos.html

I'm questioning why the dress is not more consistently biblical?  (is it kind of like the beards / calendar issue?)  I often wondered this because at one point we switched from the OCA to ROCOR and it was 100% biblical dress.   

Anyway, here are some scriptures on biblical dress, that I would be interested on a discussion about the dress, consistency, etc.

First we are supposed to dress modest (usually followed) and not expensive (not often followed), as the scriptures command - and also not wear gold or jewels etc. (not followed)

1 Timothy 2:9
Likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire.

1 Peter 3:3-4
Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear— but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious.

1 Samuel 16:7
But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.”


It is also "Womanly" and "Manly" to adorn in traditional garments for their right gender.  This is both followed and not followed in the churches.  Women often wear pants, which is only modern in (at least in America) for women to wear.   Most of our grandmothers & great grandmothers grew up in dresses only.
When the Bible was written, NO ONE wore pants.  Why can men wear them now?

Deuteronomy 22:5
“A woman shall not wear a man's garment, nor shall a man put on a woman's cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God.

Many of the women do not wear head coverings, as the icons depict, but rather wear modern hair do's to church.  Biblical women always wore head coverings, because we are to "pray without ceasing".
1 Corinthians 11 5-6  - But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

1 Thessalonians 5:17 - Pray without ceasing.   

So I'm not directly attacking, but wondering why this is not a consistent issues stressed in these churches.  Unlike "trivial" arguments, such as the calendar which is argued in the churches, these are scriptures.  I'm not sure, but the only thing I can think of is that these women are unaware of the scripture, or the churches have not taught them the scriptures, or are too "scared" (dunno the right word) to teach them these scriptures in fear of the parishoners getting mad or something.

Why such a loss in consistency?
The same way you wear pants now.
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« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2012, 08:39:36 PM »

When the Bible was written, NO ONE wore pants.

Thread over. Isa wins again.
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« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2012, 08:39:59 PM »

Many of the people who are part of the Eastern Orthodox Church body DO dress biblically, at least from what we can tell from the scriptures.  So my question is NOT directed at the churches that follow the scripture.  So unfortunately, that leads me to have to point fingers and be specific.

OCA churches ---- **I am NOT picking on the parish as many are similar, where half the women do dress fairly biblically** -- http://athanasiusoca.org/pictures/theophany/2007/  This is fairly consistent in the OCA churches. 

Greek Orthodox in America churches - --*** again I'm not picking on the parish in the Greek Orthodox church specifically*** http://www.stpauldenison.org/photos.html

I'm questioning why the dress is not more consistently biblical?  (is it kind of like the beards / calendar issue?)  I often wondered this because at one point we switched from the OCA to ROCOR and it was 100% biblical dress.   

Anyway, here are some scriptures on biblical dress, that I would be interested on a discussion about the dress, consistency, etc.

First we are supposed to dress modest (usually followed) and not expensive (not often followed), as the scriptures command - and also not wear gold or jewels etc. (not followed)

1 Timothy 2:9
Likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire.

1 Peter 3:3-4
Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear— but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious.

1 Samuel 16:7
But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.”


It is also "Womanly" and "Manly" to adorn in traditional garments for their right gender.  This is both followed and not followed in the churches.  Women often wear pants, which is only modern in (at least in America) for women to wear.   Most of our grandmothers & great grandmothers grew up in dresses only.
When the Bible was written, NO ONE wore pants.  Why can men wear them now?

Deuteronomy 22:5
“A woman shall not wear a man's garment, nor shall a man put on a woman's cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God.

Many of the women do not wear head coverings, as the icons depict, but rather wear modern hair do's to church.  Biblical women always wore head coverings, because we are to "pray without ceasing".
1 Corinthians 11 5-6  - But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

1 Thessalonians 5:17 - Pray without ceasing.   

So I'm not directly attacking, but wondering why this is not a consistent issues stressed in these churches.  Unlike "trivial" arguments, such as the calendar which is argued in the churches, these are scriptures.  I'm not sure, but the only thing I can think of is that these women are unaware of the scripture, or the churches have not taught them the scriptures, or are too "scared" (dunno the right word) to teach them these scriptures in fear of the parishoners getting mad or something.

Why such a loss in consistency?
The same way you wear pants now.

Its not just the pants I was talking about, but pants actually are worn for a long time by men only.. But anyway...  Gold, jewels, head coverings?
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yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2012, 08:41:18 PM »

When the Bible was written, NO ONE wore pants.

Thread over. Isa wins again.

You didn't read the thread.  It wasn't only about pants.  Gold, head coverings, jewels?

Also FYI, I am comparing Orthodox with Orthodox.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 08:41:50 PM by yeshuaisiam » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2012, 08:41:37 PM »

Many of the people who are part of the Eastern Orthodox Church body DO dress biblically, at least from what we can tell from the scriptures.  So my question is NOT directed at the churches that follow the scripture.  So unfortunately, that leads me to have to point fingers and be specific.

You have a religion that is a combination of other religions: Christian, Jewish, Hindu, etc.; do you wear an Ephod?
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 08:45:23 PM by SolEX01 » Logged
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« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2012, 08:43:43 PM »

Quote from: yeshuaisiam

Its not just the pants I was talking about, but pants actually are worn for a long time by men only.. But anyway...  Gold, jewels, head coverings?

It's interesting that you seem to have hang-ups about the women. You should see my parish, where it's the men who have big gold pendants and open shirts.
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« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2012, 08:44:06 PM »

When the Bible was written, NO ONE wore pants.

Thread over. Isa wins again.

You didn't read the thread.  It wasn't only about pants.  Gold, head coverings, jewels?

Also FYI, I am comparing Orthodox with Orthodox.

God commanded gold and jewels in the ephod - look at Exodus 28.
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yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2012, 08:44:52 PM »

Many of the people who are part of the Eastern Orthodox Church body DO dress biblically, at least from what we can tell from the scriptures.  So my question is NOT directed at the churches that follow the scripture.  So unfortunately, that leads me to have to point fingers and be specific.

You have a mixed up religion; do you wear an Ephod?
Please, lets not digress.  That's where legit questions go to personal attacks and stray.   I'm comparing Orthodox to Orthodox, those in communion with each other - OCA, Greek Orthodox, ROCOR, Antiochian etc.
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« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2012, 08:45:22 PM »

Many of the people who are part of the Eastern Orthodox Church body DO dress biblically, at least from what we can tell from the scriptures.  So my question is NOT directed at the churches that follow the scripture.  So unfortunately, that leads me to have to point fingers and be specific.

OCA churches ---- **I am NOT picking on the parish as many are similar, where half the women do dress fairly biblically** -- http://athanasiusoca.org/pictures/theophany/2007/  This is fairly consistent in the OCA churches. 

Greek Orthodox in America churches - --*** again I'm not picking on the parish in the Greek Orthodox church specifically*** http://www.stpauldenison.org/photos.html

I'm questioning why the dress is not more consistently biblical?  (is it kind of like the beards / calendar issue?)  I often wondered this because at one point we switched from the OCA to ROCOR and it was 100% biblical dress.   

Anyway, here are some scriptures on biblical dress, that I would be interested on a discussion about the dress, consistency, etc.

First we are supposed to dress modest (usually followed) and not expensive (not often followed), as the scriptures command - and also not wear gold or jewels etc. (not followed)

1 Timothy 2:9
Likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire.

1 Peter 3:3-4
Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear— but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious.

1 Samuel 16:7
But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.”


It is also "Womanly" and "Manly" to adorn in traditional garments for their right gender.  This is both followed and not followed in the churches.  Women often wear pants, which is only modern in (at least in America) for women to wear.   Most of our grandmothers & great grandmothers grew up in dresses only.

Deuteronomy 22:5
“A woman shall not wear a man's garment, nor shall a man put on a woman's cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God.

Many of the women do not wear head coverings, as the icons depict, but rather wear modern hair do's to church.  Biblical women always wore head coverings, because we are to "pray without ceasing".
1 Corinthians 11 5-6  - But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

1 Thessalonians 5:17 - Pray without ceasing.   

So I'm not directly attacking, but wondering why this is not a consistent issues stressed in these churches.  Unlike "trivial" arguments, such as the calendar which is argued in the churches, these are scriptures.  I'm not sure, but the only thing I can think of is that these women are unaware of the scripture, or the churches have not taught them the scriptures, or are too "scared" (dunno the right word) to teach them these scriptures in fear of the parishoners getting mad or something.

Why such a loss in consistency?



I submit that it's a case of the culture changing the religion.  This is maybe a case of economy; you start enforcing dress codes and the coffers dry up.
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« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2012, 08:45:28 PM »

When the Bible was written, NO ONE wore pants.

Thread over. Isa wins again.

You didn't read the thread.  It wasn't only about pants.  Gold, head coverings, jewels?

Also FYI, I am comparing Orthodox with Orthodox.

Okay, Yesh, to be fair to you, Isa's quip doesn't bring down your whole thread, and I will take you on your word that you are not attacking, but just asking.

However, Isa's point re pants is actually really, really important, as it illustrates that you can't judge what these scripture verses mean without understanding the historical context in which they were written.

Can you respond to this?
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« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2012, 08:46:46 PM »

Many of the people who are part of the Eastern Orthodox Church body DO dress biblically, at least from what we can tell from the scriptures.  So my question is NOT directed at the churches that follow the scripture.  So unfortunately, that leads me to have to point fingers and be specific.

You have a mixed up religion; do you wear an Ephod?
Please, lets not digress.  That's where legit questions go to personal attacks and stray.   I'm comparing Orthodox to Orthodox, those in communion with each other - OCA, Greek Orthodox, ROCOR, Antiochian etc.

What are you going to do when it's too cold to wear a skirt? Oh wait, you have never faced that situation. I have. I've hiked to church after a big snowstorm. The church is supposed to be an example of the mercy of God, not of legalism.
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« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2012, 08:47:23 PM »

When the Bible was written, NO ONE wore pants.

Thread over. Isa wins again.

You didn't read the thread.  It wasn't only about pants.  Gold, head coverings, jewels?

Also FYI, I am comparing Orthodox with Orthodox.

God commanded gold and jewels in the ephod - look at Exodus 28.

The ephod was of religious importance, jewels & gold are usually not.  Gold earrings for example.
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« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2012, 08:48:44 PM »

Many of the people who are part of the Eastern Orthodox Church body DO dress biblically, at least from what we can tell from the scriptures.  So my question is NOT directed at the churches that follow the scripture.  So unfortunately, that leads me to have to point fingers and be specific.

You have a mixed up religion; do you wear an Ephod?
Please, lets not digress.  That's where legit questions go to personal attacks and stray.

No, you commented about what women wear at different Orthodox Churches.

  I'm comparing Orthodox to Orthodox, those in communion with each other - OCA, Greek Orthodox, ROCOR, Antiochian etc.

We all wear clothing suited for different climates at different times of the year - that isn't specific enough for you?
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« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2012, 08:49:14 PM »

When the Bible was written, NO ONE wore pants.

Thread over. Isa wins again.

You didn't read the thread.  It wasn't only about pants.  Gold, head coverings, jewels?

Also FYI, I am comparing Orthodox with Orthodox.

God commanded gold and jewels in the ephod - look at Exodus 28.

The ephod was of religious importance, jewels & gold are usually not.  Gold earrings for example.

At least they're in church. You?

Why not worry about your own sins?
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« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2012, 08:49:21 PM »

Many of the people who are part of the Eastern Orthodox Church body DO dress biblically, at least from what we can tell from the scriptures.  So my question is NOT directed at the churches that follow the scripture.  So unfortunately, that leads me to have to point fingers and be specific.

OCA churches ---- **I am NOT picking on the parish as many are similar, where half the women do dress fairly biblically** -- http://athanasiusoca.org/pictures/theophany/2007/  This is fairly consistent in the OCA churches. 

Greek Orthodox in America churches - --*** again I'm not picking on the parish in the Greek Orthodox church specifically*** http://www.stpauldenison.org/photos.html

I'm questioning why the dress is not more consistently biblical?  (is it kind of like the beards / calendar issue?)  I often wondered this because at one point we switched from the OCA to ROCOR and it was 100% biblical dress.   

Anyway, here are some scriptures on biblical dress, that I would be interested on a discussion about the dress, consistency, etc.

First we are supposed to dress modest (usually followed) and not expensive (not often followed), as the scriptures command - and also not wear gold or jewels etc. (not followed)

1 Timothy 2:9
Likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire.

1 Peter 3:3-4
Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear— but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious.

1 Samuel 16:7
But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.”


It is also "Womanly" and "Manly" to adorn in traditional garments for their right gender.  This is both followed and not followed in the churches.  Women often wear pants, which is only modern in (at least in America) for women to wear.   Most of our grandmothers & great grandmothers grew up in dresses only.
When the Bible was written, NO ONE wore pants.  Why can men wear them now?

Deuteronomy 22:5
“A woman shall not wear a man's garment, nor shall a man put on a woman's cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God.

Many of the women do not wear head coverings, as the icons depict, but rather wear modern hair do's to church.  Biblical women always wore head coverings, because we are to "pray without ceasing".
1 Corinthians 11 5-6  - But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

1 Thessalonians 5:17 - Pray without ceasing.   

So I'm not directly attacking, but wondering why this is not a consistent issues stressed in these churches.  Unlike "trivial" arguments, such as the calendar which is argued in the churches, these are scriptures.  I'm not sure, but the only thing I can think of is that these women are unaware of the scripture, or the churches have not taught them the scriptures, or are too "scared" (dunno the right word) to teach them these scriptures in fear of the parishoners getting mad or something.

Why such a loss in consistency?
The same way you wear pants now.

Its not just the pants I was talking about, but pants actually are worn for a long time by men only.
Not as far back as Bible times.

But anyway...  Gold, jewels, head coverings?
Watches, ties, cuff links....pants.  Btw, ever see Christ with a crew cut? Or socks?
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2012, 08:51:04 PM »

When the Bible was written, NO ONE wore pants.

Thread over. Isa wins again.

You didn't read the thread.  It wasn't only about pants.  Gold, head coverings, jewels?

Also FYI, I am comparing Orthodox with Orthodox.

Okay, Yesh, to be fair to you, Isa's quip doesn't bring down your whole thread, and I will take you on your word that you are not attacking, but just asking.

However, Isa's point re pants is actually really, really important, as it illustrates that you can't judge what these scripture verses mean without understanding the historical context in which they were written.

Can you respond to this?

Sure, well as far as I can say, through many years the clothing of women have been dresses. (how far back I don't know, but well over 1k years through non-fiction reading I've done) in our American culture it was always the dress of women, and men pants.

The women of modern day began to adorn the clothing of men, which has been understood as men's clothing for a very long time.
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« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2012, 08:52:17 PM »

Many of the people who are part of the Eastern Orthodox Church body DO dress biblically, at least from what we can tell from the scriptures.  So my question is NOT directed at the churches that follow the scripture.  So unfortunately, that leads me to have to point fingers and be specific.

You have a mixed up religion; do you wear an Ephod?
Please, lets not digress.  That's where legit questions go to personal attacks and stray.   I'm comparing Orthodox to Orthodox, those in communion with each other - OCA, Greek Orthodox, ROCOR, Antiochian etc.

What are you going to do when it's too cold to wear a skirt? Oh wait, you have never faced that situation. I have. I've hiked to church after a big snowstorm. The church is supposed to be an example of the mercy of God, not of legalism.

I don't know.   By the photos I've presented, there was no snowstorm.  It appears to be typical weather on the outdoor photos at least.   Also women in history wore dresses in snowstorms.
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« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2012, 08:52:40 PM »

America is not the world.

What do you say to Scotsmen who wear kilts to church?
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« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2012, 08:53:17 PM »

The women of modern day began to adorn the clothing of men, which has been understood as men's clothing for a very long time.

Are you really a Russian Old Believer masquerading as a new age Orthodox Christian?
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« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2012, 08:53:49 PM »

Many of the people who are part of the Eastern Orthodox Church body DO dress biblically, at least from what we can tell from the scriptures.  So my question is NOT directed at the churches that follow the scripture.  So unfortunately, that leads me to have to point fingers and be specific.

You have a mixed up religion; do you wear an Ephod?
Please, lets not digress.  That's where legit questions go to personal attacks and stray.   I'm comparing Orthodox to Orthodox, those in communion with each other - OCA, Greek Orthodox, ROCOR, Antiochian etc.

What are you going to do when it's too cold to wear a skirt? Oh wait, you have never faced that situation. I have. I've hiked to church after a big snowstorm. The church is supposed to be an example of the mercy of God, not of legalism.

I don't know.   By the photos I've presented, there was no snowstorm.  It appears to be typical weather on the outdoor photos at least.   Also women in history wore dresses in snowstorms.

So, when I'm talking about a real incident from my life, I don't know what I meant?  Huh

Or are you contending that snowstorms never exist?

When did you become a history expert?
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« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2012, 08:53:57 PM »

Many of the people who are part of the Eastern Orthodox Church body DO dress biblically, at least from what we can tell from the scriptures.  So my question is NOT directed at the churches that follow the scripture.  So unfortunately, that leads me to have to point fingers and be specific.

OCA churches ---- **I am NOT picking on the parish as many are similar, where half the women do dress fairly biblically** -- http://athanasiusoca.org/pictures/theophany/2007/  This is fairly consistent in the OCA churches. 

Greek Orthodox in America churches - --*** again I'm not picking on the parish in the Greek Orthodox church specifically*** http://www.stpauldenison.org/photos.html

I'm questioning why the dress is not more consistently biblical?  (is it kind of like the beards / calendar issue?)  I often wondered this because at one point we switched from the OCA to ROCOR and it was 100% biblical dress.   

Anyway, here are some scriptures on biblical dress, that I would be interested on a discussion about the dress, consistency, etc.

First we are supposed to dress modest (usually followed) and not expensive (not often followed), as the scriptures command - and also not wear gold or jewels etc. (not followed)

1 Timothy 2:9
Likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire.

1 Peter 3:3-4
Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear— but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious.

1 Samuel 16:7
But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.”


It is also "Womanly" and "Manly" to adorn in traditional garments for their right gender.  This is both followed and not followed in the churches.  Women often wear pants, which is only modern in (at least in America) for women to wear.   Most of our grandmothers & great grandmothers grew up in dresses only.
When the Bible was written, NO ONE wore pants.  Why can men wear them now?

Deuteronomy 22:5
“A woman shall not wear a man's garment, nor shall a man put on a woman's cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God.

Many of the women do not wear head coverings, as the icons depict, but rather wear modern hair do's to church.  Biblical women always wore head coverings, because we are to "pray without ceasing".
1 Corinthians 11 5-6  - But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

1 Thessalonians 5:17 - Pray without ceasing.   

So I'm not directly attacking, but wondering why this is not a consistent issues stressed in these churches.  Unlike "trivial" arguments, such as the calendar which is argued in the churches, these are scriptures.  I'm not sure, but the only thing I can think of is that these women are unaware of the scripture, or the churches have not taught them the scriptures, or are too "scared" (dunno the right word) to teach them these scriptures in fear of the parishoners getting mad or something.

Why such a loss in consistency?
The same way you wear pants now.

Its not just the pants I was talking about, but pants actually are worn for a long time by men only.
Not as far back as Bible times.

But anyway...  Gold, jewels, head coverings?
Watches, ties, cuff links....pants.  Btw, ever see Christ with a crew cut? Or socks?

I've never seen Christ, except in the Eucharist.
I don't know about watches, some gold, some not.... Tools?  I don't know what to think about them.  
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« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2012, 08:58:44 PM »

Many of the people who are part of the Eastern Orthodox Church body DO dress biblically, at least from what we can tell from the scriptures.  So my question is NOT directed at the churches that follow the scripture.  So unfortunately, that leads me to have to point fingers and be specific.

You have a mixed up religion; do you wear an Ephod?
Please, lets not digress.  That's where legit questions go to personal attacks and stray.   I'm comparing Orthodox to Orthodox, those in communion with each other - OCA, Greek Orthodox, ROCOR, Antiochian etc.

What are you going to do when it's too cold to wear a skirt? Oh wait, you have never faced that situation. I have. I've hiked to church after a big snowstorm. The church is supposed to be an example of the mercy of God, not of legalism.

I don't know.   By the photos I've presented, there was no snowstorm.  It appears to be typical weather on the outdoor photos at least.   Also women in history wore dresses in snowstorms.

So, when I'm talking about a real incident from my life, I don't know what I meant?  Huh

Or are you contending that snowstorms never exist?

When did you become a history expert?

I'm sure you had the experience.   Somehow,  Laura Ingalls Wilder managed in a skirt in Desmet SD at -20F with nails freezing in the roof of her home.

As far as history, if you would like to show me where it was absolutely common in at least American culture, pre 1900's for women to wear pants I'd appreciate it.   The churches I've given examples to were American churches.   Not ALL ORTHODOX parishoners do this.   I'm comparing ORTHODOX TO ORTHODOX and wondering about the inconsistency.
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« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2012, 09:00:24 PM »

Many of the people who are part of the Eastern Orthodox Church body DO dress biblically, at least from what we can tell from the scriptures.  So my question is NOT directed at the churches that follow the scripture.  So unfortunately, that leads me to have to point fingers and be specific.

You have a mixed up religion; do you wear an Ephod?
Please, lets not digress.  That's where legit questions go to personal attacks and stray.   I'm comparing Orthodox to Orthodox, those in communion with each other - OCA, Greek Orthodox, ROCOR, Antiochian etc.

What are you going to do when it's too cold to wear a skirt? Oh wait, you have never faced that situation. I have. I've hiked to church after a big snowstorm. The church is supposed to be an example of the mercy of God, not of legalism.

I don't know.   By the photos I've presented, there was no snowstorm.  It appears to be typical weather on the outdoor photos at least.   Also women in history wore dresses in snowstorms.
So did men.
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« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2012, 09:01:24 PM »

Ah, so yesh, you are the expert on Biblical mores now.

Why don't you stop kvetching about the women and worry about yourself?

You don't mention someone else's sins in Confession, just yours. That example can be taken elsewhere.

And why the hell are we all supposed to be like Laura Wilder? Do you even know what you are talking about?

Should I stop wearing jackets, too?

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« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2012, 09:02:24 PM »

The women of modern day began to adorn the clothing of men, which has been understood as men's clothing for a very long time.

Are you really a Russian Old Believer masquerading as a new age Orthodox Christian?

What?
No... Not sure of the point... but...
I may be my own grandpa http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qu_Y1wQ923g&feature=fvwrel
Sorry just don't know the point of the question.  In my faith area, its where I'm at.
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« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2012, 09:03:49 PM »

The women of modern day began to adorn the clothing of men, which has been understood as men's clothing for a very long time.

Are you really a Russian Old Believer masquerading as a new age Orthodox Christian?

What?
No... Not sure of the point... but...
I may be my own grandpa
What's the Bible say about incest?
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« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2012, 09:05:32 PM »

Ah, so yesh, you are the expert on Biblical mores now.

Why don't you stop kvetching about the women and worry about yourself?

You don't mention someone else's sins in Confession, just yours. That example can be taken elsewhere.

And why the hell are we all supposed to be like Laura Wilder? Do you even know what you are talking about?

Should I stop wearing jackets, too?



I do worry about myself.... ehm... I don't know what you are talking about.

I was giving an example that Laura Ingalls, somebody in American History, consistently wore dresses even in the harshest American winters.   I was giving an example of how in our culture women did not adorn the clothing of men here... Until fairly recently.
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« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2012, 09:06:24 PM »

Still, you haven't given us a reason we should care.

Your own backyard: best be cleaning it.
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« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2012, 09:07:54 PM »

The women of modern day began to adorn the clothing of men, which has been understood as men's clothing for a very long time.

Are you really a Russian Old Believer masquerading as a new age Orthodox Christian?

What?
No... Not sure of the point... but...
I may be my own grandpa
What's the Bible say about incest?
Wow...
Well here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uzae_SqbmDE
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« Reply #30 on: May 02, 2012, 09:09:16 PM »

Still, you haven't given us a reason we should care.

Your own backyard: best be cleaning it.

Read my OP for the scriptures of why you should care.  Not just on dresses.
The scriptures command women to not adorn the clothes of men, or men women.   In our culture, women dressed one way, and men another.  It was mainly after women's lib that women wore pants so often.
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« Reply #31 on: May 02, 2012, 09:12:15 PM »

Still, you haven't given us a reason we should care.

Your own backyard: best be cleaning it.

Read my OP for the scriptures of why you should care.  Not just on dresses.
The scriptures command women to not adorn the clothes of men, or men women.   In our culture, women dressed one way, and men another.  It was mainly after women's lib that women wore pants so often.

Obsession is not a healthy thing.
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« Reply #32 on: May 02, 2012, 09:17:05 PM »

"Amazon wearing trousers and carrying a shield with an attached patterned cloth and a quiver. Ancient Greek Attic white-ground alabastron, ca. 470 BC, British Museum, London"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trousers



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« Reply #33 on: May 02, 2012, 09:22:50 PM »

The women of modern day began to adorn the clothing of men, which has been understood as men's clothing for a very long time.

Are you really a Russian Old Believer masquerading as a new age Orthodox Christian?

What?
No... Not sure of the point... but...
I may be my own grandpa http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qu_Y1wQ923g&feature=fvwrel
Sorry just don't know the point of the question.  In my faith area, its where I'm at.

Women who are Russian Old Believers dress like those in 16th Century Russia.  The Russian Old Believers schismed from the Russian Orthodox Church due to reforms.

Many religious groups, religious sects and cultures force their women to dress conservatively, to not wear makeup or jewelry, etc.

Being part of an Orthodox Christian forum, I used Russian Old Believers because I didn't want to refer to you as a fundamentalist Mormon or any other religious group, religious sect or culture which requires women to dress conservatively.   angel
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« Reply #34 on: May 02, 2012, 09:37:31 PM »

Ah, so yesh, you are the expert on Biblical mores now.

Why don't you stop kvetching about the women and worry about yourself?

You don't mention someone else's sins in Confession, just yours. That example can be taken elsewhere.

And why the hell are we all supposed to be like Laura Wilder? Do you even know what you are talking about?

Should I stop wearing jackets, too?



I do worry about myself.... ehm... I don't know what you are talking about.

I was giving an example that Laura Ingalls, somebody in American History, consistently wore dresses even in the harshest American winters.   I was giving an example of how in our culture women did not adorn the clothing of men here... Until fairly recently.
You have a picture of Laura Ingalls in a dress in the snow?

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« Reply #35 on: May 02, 2012, 09:37:52 PM »

"Amazon wearing trousers and carrying a shield with an attached patterned cloth and a quiver. Ancient Greek Attic white-ground alabastron, ca. 470 BC, British Museum, London"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trousers





Yep. Biro, the thread was much more about pants and not only for women.
American women (Greek Orthodox church in America) and (Orthodox church in America) their culture is and has been for many centuries that women wore full length dresses, and men pants.

I'm not attacking you personally.  I was wondering about why it is so inconsistent.   The ROCOR churches insisted women wear dresses, whereas OCA and Greek do not (at least not the ones I've been to and the ones in the photos).
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« Reply #36 on: May 02, 2012, 09:39:21 PM »

Still, you haven't given us a reason we should care.

Your own backyard: best be cleaning it.

Read my OP for the scriptures of why you should care.  Not just on dresses.
The scriptures command women to not adorn the clothes of men, or men women.   In our culture, women dressed one way, and men another.  It was mainly after women's lib that women wore pants so often.
Yeah, that women's lib
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« Reply #37 on: May 02, 2012, 09:39:31 PM »

No, Yesh, it has not been 'for centuries,' because jeans became popular after their production by Levi Strauss for people who worked in mines. Late 1800s, tops.

Stop trying to conflate history with your personal chip on your shoulder.
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« Reply #38 on: May 02, 2012, 09:41:50 PM »

"Amazon wearing trousers and carrying a shield with an attached patterned cloth and a quiver. Ancient Greek Attic white-ground alabastron, ca. 470 BC, British Museum, London"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trousers





Yep. Biro, the thread was much more about pants and not only for women.
American women (Greek Orthodox church in America) and (Orthodox church in America) their culture is and has been for many centuries that women wore full length dresses, and men pants.

I'm not attacking you personally.  I was wondering about why it is so inconsistent.   The ROCOR churches insisted women wear dresses, whereas OCA and Greek do not (at least not the ones I've been to and the ones in the photos).
and up in North America the women wore pants for many centuries. Here's an engraving from two centuries ago
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« Reply #39 on: May 02, 2012, 09:43:22 PM »

Ah, so yesh, you are the expert on Biblical mores now.

Why don't you stop kvetching about the women and worry about yourself?

You don't mention someone else's sins in Confession, just yours. That example can be taken elsewhere.

And why the hell are we all supposed to be like Laura Wilder? Do you even know what you are talking about?

Should I stop wearing jackets, too?



I do worry about myself.... ehm... I don't know what you are talking about.

I was giving an example that Laura Ingalls, somebody in American History, consistently wore dresses even in the harshest American winters.   I was giving an example of how in our culture women did not adorn the clothing of men here... Until fairly recently.
You have a picture of Laura Ingalls in a dress in the snow?


LOL!!!

Ingalls family, typical American dress -



Closest thing I could find to "jackets snow etc."


Anyway, these are just a couple images of a FAMOUS American.  I don't know if it is the influence of women's lib in the churches or what.  Of course, the thread in the entirety was NOT JUST ABOUT DRESSES or women!
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« Reply #40 on: May 02, 2012, 09:44:45 PM »

So, Yesh, Orthodox only live in America?

America's standards are confined to the last 120 years? You do know we became a separate country in 1776?
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« Reply #41 on: May 02, 2012, 09:45:52 PM »

No, Yesh, it has not been 'for centuries,' because jeans became popular after their production by Levi Strauss for people who worked in mines. Late 1800s, tops.

Stop trying to conflate history with your personal chip on your shoulder.

Late 1800's was a bit over a century, and I'm pretty sure (but don't know for a fact) women were probably not in the mines often as most women did not work then.
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« Reply #42 on: May 02, 2012, 09:46:52 PM »

Still, you haven't given us a reason we should care.

Your own backyard: best be cleaning it.

Read my OP for the scriptures of why you should care.  Not just on dresses.
The scriptures command women to not adorn the clothes of men, or men women.   In our culture, women dressed one way, and men another.  It was mainly after women's lib that women wore pants so often.
Yeah, that women's lib


Good example of strong Christian women ialmisry.
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« Reply #43 on: May 02, 2012, 09:47:51 PM »

No, Yesh, it has not been 'for centuries,' because jeans became popular after their production by Levi Strauss for people who worked in mines. Late 1800s, tops.

Stop trying to conflate history with your personal chip on your shoulder.

Late 1800's was a bit over a century, and I'm pretty sure (but don't know for a fact) women were probably not in the mines often as most women did not work then.

But not 'many centuries' as you tried to make it sound.

So, everyone is supposed to dress like some of the pioneer women? Why?

You still haven't said what you're going to do about Scotsmen, who wear kilts.
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« Reply #44 on: May 02, 2012, 09:48:21 PM »

Ingalls family, typical American dress -
Not a single one has her head covered.
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« Reply #45 on: May 02, 2012, 09:49:20 PM »

Quote from: yeshuaisiam
Good example of strong Christian women ialmisry.

Lots of native women in Alaska converted, thanks to the Russian Orthodox missionaries of the 1700s onward.
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« Reply #46 on: May 02, 2012, 09:53:04 PM »

So, Yesh, Orthodox only live in America?

America's standards are confined to the last 120 years? You do know we became a separate country in 1776?

Biro, look, the normal reaction to somebody seeing something that they are called out on is often anger.

You are angry at the scriptures and not me, because the scriptures support what I am saying, and you know it.  Plain and simple.
To digress, insult, and conflate the argument, is pointless.   I'm not even attacking you and look at your reaction.  I'm asking why the churches are inconsistent.  There are many Orthodox churches that support what I am saying, and practice it.

Most, American (not native American) Christian dress standards were brought in mainly from Europe.

FYI (Many Americans believe the U.S. was founded on July 4, 1776, when the colonies declared independence, though some argue that it was March 1, 1781, when the Articles of Confederation were ratified, and yet others claim it wasn't until September 3, 1783, which was when Great Britain recognized American independence.)
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« Reply #47 on: May 02, 2012, 09:54:37 PM »

Quote from: yeshuaisiam

You are angry at the scriptures and not me, because the scriptures support what I am saying, and you know it.

No.



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« Reply #48 on: May 02, 2012, 09:56:36 PM »

Quote from: yeshuaisiam
Good example of strong Christian women ialmisry.

Lots of native women in Alaska converted, thanks to the Russian Orthodox missionaries of the 1700s onward.

That's good!  Excellent!  Were they Eskimo natives?  I'd love to read up on that.

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« Reply #49 on: May 02, 2012, 09:59:29 PM »

Quote from: yeshuaisiam

You are angry at the scriptures and not me, because the scriptures support what I am saying, and you know it.

No.

So you don't agree that we should not be wearing expensive clothes, gold, jewels, "costly things", head coverings, and the proper clothes for the right gender in church?

Many Orthodox Christians agree with it.  I'm not picking on you specifically - I'm trying to figure out why the inconsistency because it was commanded in the scriptures.
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« Reply #50 on: May 02, 2012, 10:13:00 PM »

Quote from: yeshuaisiam

You are angry at the scriptures and not me, because the scriptures support what I am saying, and you know it.

No.

So you don't agree that we should not be wearing expensive clothes, gold, jewels, "costly things", head coverings, and the proper clothes for the right gender in church?

Many Orthodox Christians agree with it.  I'm not picking on you specifically - I'm trying to figure out why the inconsistency because it was commanded in the scriptures.
Then I expect a picture of you in a plain dress.  In the snow.
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« Reply #51 on: May 02, 2012, 10:30:50 PM »

Ingalls family, typical American dress -
Not a single one has her head covered.

While one can not assert this with any degree of certainty as time travel has yet to be invented, I sort of think that had this family paraded into Jerusalem at the time of the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Christ dressed and coiffed as in this old picture, they would not have 'fit in' and likely would have been rounded up by Pilate's Centurions with the approval of the Sadducees.
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« Reply #52 on: May 02, 2012, 10:32:37 PM »

Quote from: yeshuaisiam

You are angry at the scriptures and not me, because the scriptures support what I am saying, and you know it.

No.

So you don't agree that we should not be wearing expensive clothes, gold, jewels, "costly things", head coverings, and the proper clothes for the right gender in church?

Many Orthodox Christians agree with it.  I'm not picking on you specifically - I'm trying to figure out why the inconsistency because it was commanded in the scriptures.
Then I expect a picture of you in a plain dress.  In the snow.

Heh, really the snow argument isn't right anyway.  Women who often wear dresses know that in cold weather they wear thick pantaloons, sweats under the dresses, etc.   
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« Reply #53 on: May 02, 2012, 10:40:00 PM »

Quote from: yeshuaisiam

You are angry at the scriptures and not me, because the scriptures support what I am saying, and you know it.

No.

So you don't agree that we should not be wearing expensive clothes, gold, jewels, "costly things", head coverings, and the proper clothes for the right gender in church?

Many Orthodox Christians agree with it.  I'm not picking on you specifically - I'm trying to figure out why the inconsistency because it was commanded in the scriptures.
Then I expect a picture of you in a plain dress.  In the snow.

Heh, really the snow argument isn't right anyway.  Women who often wear dresses know that in cold weather they wear thick pantaloons, sweats under the dresses, etc.   
PANTS!!!!!!!!!PANTS!!!!!!!!!PANTS!!!!!!!!!PANTS!!!!!!!!!PANTS!!!!!!!!!PANTS!!!!!!!!!PANTS!!!!!!!!!PANTS!!!!!!!!!PANTS!!!!!!!!!PANTS!!!!!!!!!PANTS!!!!!!!!!PANTS!!!!!!!!!PANTS!!!!!!!!!PANTS!!!!!!!!!PANTS!!!!!!!!!PANTS!!!!!!!!!PANTS!!!!!!!!!PANTS!!!!!!!!!PANTS
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« Reply #54 on: May 02, 2012, 11:01:41 PM »

Quote from: yeshuaisiam

You are angry at the scriptures and not me, because the scriptures support what I am saying, and you know it.

No.

So you don't agree that we should not be wearing expensive clothes, gold, jewels, "costly things", head coverings, and the proper clothes for the right gender in church?

Many Orthodox Christians agree with it.  I'm not picking on you specifically - I'm trying to figure out why the inconsistency because it was commanded in the scriptures.

Who sets the standard for 'costly'?

Again, you've said nothing about the menfolk who wear jewelry, and we've got a few of those.

If a woman wears a plastic necklace that her daughter made for her in crafts class, is that a problem?
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« Reply #55 on: May 02, 2012, 11:12:47 PM »

Quote from: yeshuaisiam
Good example of strong Christian women ialmisry.

Lots of native women in Alaska converted, thanks to the Russian Orthodox missionaries of the 1700s onward.

That's good!  Excellent!  Were they Eskimo natives?  I'd love to read up on that.



For those who dont already know, the Orthodox Church in America started with mission activity by the Russians during the 1700s (while Alaska was a Russian colony). Yes the first converts to Orthodoxy in America were Alaskan Natives. That is the reason why most Orthodox churches in Alaska have many Native families. Ive even heard that a few of the Russian Old Believers even have some Natives in their parishes (surprisingly). The Orthodox Church remains the largest Christian church in Alaska.
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« Reply #56 on: May 02, 2012, 11:21:42 PM »

Quote from: yeshuaisiam

You are angry at the scriptures and not me, because the scriptures support what I am saying, and you know it.

No.

So you don't agree that we should not be wearing expensive clothes, gold, jewels, "costly things", head coverings, and the proper clothes for the right gender in church?

Many Orthodox Christians agree with it.  I'm not picking on you specifically - I'm trying to figure out why the inconsistency because it was commanded in the scriptures.

Who sets the standard for 'costly'?

Again, you've said nothing about the menfolk who wear jewelry, and we've got a few of those.

If a woman wears a plastic necklace that her daughter made for her in crafts class, is that a problem?

Oh absolutely men do this, and I was not trying to pass it off as only women.   Men do it all the time.  I would see a guy wearing expensive jewelry, rings, etc... A Rolex... as not being in tune with scripture.

I don't know what the church would see of a plastic necklace.

But really my question was not directed at "questioning the church", or "questioning anybody in particular", or even "directly judging what should be or not be worn".   My question was within the inconsistency of the Orthodox church body that is in communion with one another when based in scriptural backing.

Many women in the OCA do not wear head coverings in church, while women in ROCOR do, and are pretty much required to if they are a member of their church.   Both are in communion together (as far as I know unless something has changed) yet the scriptures seem more followed in one vs. the other church.

I also wanted to make it clear that its not exactly like comparing "churchy issues" like the calendar, as those are not scriptural commands.

It's a question about the inconsistencies and why it is that way.


Biro, also I may be reading into your statement wrong, but as you know, these scriptures do generally apply toward women more, and it is a struggle for women as clothing is generally more important to women.   (you know, many men would just wear an old T shirt and junky jeans to their wedding LOL because it doesn't matter)  For women these scriptures also focus on modesty, the hair  (women's glory).   Also I really believe that men often physically lust for women more than women lust for men (physically by "looking").

However, http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/04/russian-orthodox-church-apologizes-for-photoshop-stunt/ a patriarch with a $30,000 watch is something I would consider "costly".   They even tried to hide it.   There is a good example of a male doing wrong as well.   Expensive suits, rolex watches, etc., could all be considered costly on men.
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« Reply #57 on: May 02, 2012, 11:25:05 PM »

It would be very nice to see every Orthodox woman in veil and dress during Church services but I dont think we should attack them for not dressing according to the Quran Shocked I meant Bible. I think it should be highly preferred that women dress in church with veil and dress as you would see in Slavic or some Arabic churches. My dilemma is that I LOVE Byzantine chant (especially in Arabic) but I also love the pewless churches and veiled women. So when people ask what jurisdiction I am I just say Orthodox.
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« Reply #58 on: May 03, 2012, 04:46:26 PM »

It would be very nice to see every Orthodox woman in veil and dress during Church services but I dont think we should attack them for not dressing according to the Quran Shocked I meant Bible. I think it should be highly preferred that women dress in church with veil and dress as you would see in Slavic or some Arabic churches. My dilemma is that I LOVE Byzantine chant (especially in Arabic) but I also love the pewless churches and veiled women. So when people ask what jurisdiction I am I just say Orthodox.

I know, and the thread wasn't about attacking anybody. ?   Of course, many posters here immediately get defensive as if it is a personal attack, but its not.   They are too use to beating around the bush rather than addressing important questions at hand.   The thread was asking a comparison between a couple of American groups (OCA & GOA), to other EO groups such as ROCOR, who generally follow the scriptures in accordance to dress.   

ROCOR would not agree with the way many of the parishoners dress.   This is a scriptural issue to, not a latter church fight over calendars etc.
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« Reply #59 on: May 03, 2012, 04:49:58 PM »

It would be very nice to see every Orthodox woman in veil and dress during Church services but I dont think we shouldnt attack them for not dressing according to the Quran Shocked I meant Bible. I think it should be highly preferred that women dress in church with veil and dress as you would see in Slavic or some Arabic churches. My dilemma is that I LOVE Byzantine chant (especially in Arabic) but I also love the pewless churches and veiled women. So when people ask what jurisdiction I am I just say Orthodox.

 Shocked Typo alert! I meant to say that we shouldnt attack people  Smiley
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« Reply #60 on: May 03, 2012, 04:57:09 PM »

It would be very nice to see every Orthodox woman in veil and dress during Church services but I dont think we should attack them for not dressing according to the Quran Shocked I meant Bible. I think it should be highly preferred that women dress in church with veil and dress as you would see in Slavic or some Arabic churches. My dilemma is that I LOVE Byzantine chant (especially in Arabic) but I also love the pewless churches and veiled women. So when people ask what jurisdiction I am I just say Orthodox.

I know, and the thread wasn't about attacking anybody. ?   Of course, many posters here immediately get defensive as if it is a personal attack, but its not.   They are too use to beating around the bush rather than addressing important questions at hand.   The thread was asking a comparison between a couple of American groups (OCA & GOA), to other EO groups such as ROCOR, who generally follow the scriptures in accordance to dress.   

ROCOR would not agree with the way many of the parishoners dress.   This is a scriptural issue to, not a latter church fight over calendars etc.
You have yet to show us pants in the Bible.
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« Reply #61 on: May 03, 2012, 06:03:44 PM »

It would be very nice to see every Orthodox woman in veil and dress during Church services but I dont think we should attack them for not dressing according to the Quran Shocked I meant Bible. I think it should be highly preferred that women dress in church with veil and dress as you would see in Slavic or some Arabic churches. My dilemma is that I LOVE Byzantine chant (especially in Arabic) but I also love the pewless churches and veiled women. So when people ask what jurisdiction I am I just say Orthodox.

I know, and the thread wasn't about attacking anybody. ?   Of course, many posters here immediately get defensive as if it is a personal attack, but its not.   They are too use to beating around the bush rather than addressing important questions at hand.   The thread was asking a comparison between a couple of American groups (OCA & GOA), to other EO groups such as ROCOR, who generally follow the scriptures in accordance to dress.

Why are you so focused on ROCOR?  

ROCOR would not agree with the way many of the parishoners dress.   This is a scriptural issue to, not a latter church fight over calendars etc.

If someone with full sleeve tattoos showed up at a ROCOR Church, would he/she be turned away?  We've beaten tattoos and body art to death on this forum; however, if your group would turn away such an individual - that would be nice to know.
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« Reply #62 on: May 03, 2012, 09:13:20 PM »

It would be very nice to see every Orthodox woman in veil and dress during Church services but I dont think we should attack them for not dressing according to the Quran Shocked I meant Bible. I think it should be highly preferred that women dress in church with veil and dress as you would see in Slavic or some Arabic churches. My dilemma is that I LOVE Byzantine chant (especially in Arabic) but I also love the pewless churches and veiled women. So when people ask what jurisdiction I am I just say Orthodox.

I know, and the thread wasn't about attacking anybody. ?   Of course, many posters here immediately get defensive as if it is a personal attack, but its not.   They are too use to beating around the bush rather than addressing important questions at hand.   The thread was asking a comparison between a couple of American groups (OCA & GOA), to other EO groups such as ROCOR, who generally follow the scriptures in accordance to dress.   

ROCOR would not agree with the way many of the parishoners dress.   This is a scriptural issue to, not a latter church fight over calendars etc.
You have yet to show us pants in the Bible.

Ask ROCOR.
So why would ROCOR disagree with OCA?  Quit pointing this at me, its the churches that disagree.   You digress to point a finger so you can troll your way out of actually answering something.
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« Reply #63 on: May 03, 2012, 09:16:21 PM »

It would be very nice to see every Orthodox woman in veil and dress during Church services but I dont think we should attack them for not dressing according to the Quran Shocked I meant Bible. I think it should be highly preferred that women dress in church with veil and dress as you would see in Slavic or some Arabic churches. My dilemma is that I LOVE Byzantine chant (especially in Arabic) but I also love the pewless churches and veiled women. So when people ask what jurisdiction I am I just say Orthodox.

I know, and the thread wasn't about attacking anybody. ?   Of course, many posters here immediately get defensive as if it is a personal attack, but its not.   They are too use to beating around the bush rather than addressing important questions at hand.   The thread was asking a comparison between a couple of American groups (OCA & GOA), to other EO groups such as ROCOR, who generally follow the scriptures in accordance to dress.

Why are you so focused on ROCOR?  

ROCOR would not agree with the way many of the parishoners dress.   This is a scriptural issue to, not a latter church fight over calendars etc.

If someone with full sleeve tattoos showed up at a ROCOR Church, would he/she be turned away?  We've beaten tattoos and body art to death on this forum; however, if your group would turn away such an individual - that would be nice to know.

Because ROCOR is in America.
ROCOR requires the women to wear head coverings in church.
OCA does not.
GOA does not.

Sorry but ROCOR is pretty important.  I'm curious why the churches are not on par on this.

I don't know if somebody with a full sleeve of tattoos showed up if they would be turned away.  I could imagine if that person were to be baptized into the church that it would be requested they at least cover it up... But that's only a guess.   Not the point at all though of my thread.
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« Reply #64 on: May 03, 2012, 09:20:47 PM »

ROCOR really ain't important. Except as an venue for those belonging to their mother body: The Society for Creative Anachronism.



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« Reply #65 on: May 03, 2012, 11:26:39 PM »

It would be very nice to see every Orthodox woman in veil and dress during Church services but I dont think we should attack them for not dressing according to the Quran Shocked I meant Bible. I think it should be highly preferred that women dress in church with veil and dress as you would see in Slavic or some Arabic churches. My dilemma is that I LOVE Byzantine chant (especially in Arabic) but I also love the pewless churches and veiled women. So when people ask what jurisdiction I am I just say Orthodox.

I know, and the thread wasn't about attacking anybody. ?   Of course, many posters here immediately get defensive as if it is a personal attack, but its not.   They are too use to beating around the bush rather than addressing important questions at hand.   The thread was asking a comparison between a couple of American groups (OCA & GOA), to other EO groups such as ROCOR, who generally follow the scriptures in accordance to dress.

Why are you so focused on ROCOR?  

ROCOR would not agree with the way many of the parishoners dress.   This is a scriptural issue to, not a latter church fight over calendars etc.

If someone with full sleeve tattoos showed up at a ROCOR Church, would he/she be turned away?  We've beaten tattoos and body art to death on this forum; however, if your group would turn away such an individual - that would be nice to know.

Because ROCOR is in America.
ROCOR requires the women to wear head coverings in church.

Is it listed in the ROCOR Charter?  When ROCOR reunited with Moscow, did the terms of the agreement include that women must wear head coverings?  Where is the basis for the legalism other than what Paul said?

OCA does not.
GOA does not.

Sorry but ROCOR is pretty important.  I'm curious why the churches are not on par on this.

Because head coverings aren't that important.  The Church respects free will and if women choose not to wear head coverings, that ought to be OK.

I don't know if somebody with a full sleeve of tattoos showed up if they would be turned away.  I could imagine if that person were to be baptized into the church that it would be requested they at least cover it up... But that's only a guess.   Not the point at all though of my thread.

Legalism - that is my point.  You state that ROCOR is a legalist Church in that women have to wear head coverings while women in other Orthodox jurisdictions do not wear head coverings.
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« Reply #66 on: May 04, 2012, 12:00:58 AM »

When the Bible was written, NO ONE wore pants.  Why can men wear them now?

Actually Celts, Germans, Scytians, Sarmatians and the Persian peoples all did.
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« Reply #67 on: May 04, 2012, 12:52:56 AM »

When the Bible was written, NO ONE wore pants.  Why can men wear them now?

Actually Celts, Germans, Scytians, Sarmatians and the Persian peoples all did.

Lawl at Celts and Germans.
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« Reply #68 on: May 04, 2012, 01:03:58 AM »

When the Bible was written, NO ONE wore pants.

Thread over. Isa wins again.

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« Reply #69 on: May 04, 2012, 01:13:51 AM »

When the Bible was written, NO ONE wore pants.  Why can men wear them now?

Actually Celts, Germans, Scytians, Sarmatians and the Persian peoples all did.
I was waiting for someone to bring up the Celts, Germans, Scytians, Sarmatians and Iranians.

They were out on the fringe of the consciousness of Biblical society.  If the Bible writers were aware of them (and we don't know they were), they might have dismissed them with the other strange things strange people do.  Sort of how we look at people who wear robes now.
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« Reply #70 on: May 04, 2012, 01:23:48 AM »

When the Bible was written, NO ONE wore pants.  Why can men wear them now?

Actually Celts, Germans, Scytians, Sarmatians and the Persian peoples all did.
I was waiting for someone to bring up the Celts, Germans, Scytians, Sarmatians and Iranians.

They were out on the fringe of the consciousness of Biblical society.  If the Bible writers were aware of them (and we don't know they were), they might have dismissed them with the other strange things strange people do.  Sort of how we look at people who wear robes now.

The Greeks were certainly scandalised by the Persian propensity to wear pants.
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« Reply #71 on: May 04, 2012, 01:25:49 AM »

It would be very nice to see every Orthodox woman in veil and dress during Church services but I dont think we should attack them for not dressing according to the Quran Shocked I meant Bible. I think it should be highly preferred that women dress in church with veil and dress as you would see in Slavic or some Arabic churches. My dilemma is that I LOVE Byzantine chant (especially in Arabic) but I also love the pewless churches and veiled women. So when people ask what jurisdiction I am I just say Orthodox.

I know, and the thread wasn't about attacking anybody. ?   Of course, many posters here immediately get defensive as if it is a personal attack, but its not.   They are too use to beating around the bush rather than addressing important questions at hand.   The thread was asking a comparison between a couple of American groups (OCA & GOA), to other EO groups such as ROCOR, who generally follow the scriptures in accordance to dress.   

ROCOR would not agree with the way many of the parishoners dress.   This is a scriptural issue to, not a latter church fight over calendars etc.
You have yet to show us pants in the Bible.

Ask ROCOR.
So why would ROCOR disagree with OCA?  Quit pointing this at me, its the churches that disagree.   You digress to point a finger so you can troll your way out of actually answering something.
It's not important.

There.

There's your answer.
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« Reply #72 on: May 04, 2012, 01:27:44 AM »

It would be very nice to see every Orthodox woman in veil and dress during Church services but I dont think we should attack them for not dressing according to the Quran Shocked I meant Bible. I think it should be highly preferred that women dress in church with veil and dress as you would see in Slavic or some Arabic churches. My dilemma is that I LOVE Byzantine chant (especially in Arabic) but I also love the pewless churches and veiled women. So when people ask what jurisdiction I am I just say Orthodox.

I know, and the thread wasn't about attacking anybody. ?   Of course, many posters here immediately get defensive as if it is a personal attack, but its not.   They are too use to beating around the bush rather than addressing important questions at hand.   The thread was asking a comparison between a couple of American groups (OCA & GOA), to other EO groups such as ROCOR, who generally follow the scriptures in accordance to dress.

Why are you so focused on ROCOR?  

ROCOR would not agree with the way many of the parishoners dress.   This is a scriptural issue to, not a latter church fight over calendars etc.

If someone with full sleeve tattoos showed up at a ROCOR Church, would he/she be turned away?  We've beaten tattoos and body art to death on this forum; however, if your group would turn away such an individual - that would be nice to know.

Because ROCOR is in America.
ROCOR requires the women to wear head coverings in church.
OCA does not.
GOA does not.

Sorry but ROCOR is pretty important.  I'm curious why the churches are not on par on this.
ROCOR is important.
OCA is important.
GOA is important.

Pant wearing vs. dress wearing is not important.
I don't know if somebody with a full sleeve of tattoos showed up if they would be turned away.  I could imagine if that person were to be baptized into the church that it would be requested they at least cover it up... But that's only a guess.   Not the point at all though of my thread.
Why not?  Tattoos are a no no under the Old Law.
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« Reply #73 on: May 04, 2012, 03:13:54 AM »

Again...I dont think that it should be required but HIGHLY preferred. 
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« Reply #74 on: May 04, 2012, 04:21:37 AM »

So, even though this question has been asked before, maybe if I re-word it you could give an answer.

Would it be permissible, to you, for me to wear my kilt to church? And I'm not talking about how I normally wear my kilt with a t-shirt and black boots, but with a jacket, vest, button-up shirt and tie, brogues, and kilt hose? Would the kilt just be a no since its a skirt, even though in the way it is being worn it couldn't be mistaken for women's clothing?

What about women's pant suits? Most of the pants that I have ever seen for females is of a slightly different style than those for men. Even though they are still pants, they are manufactured, styled, and marketed for the different sexes. I don't know too many people who will mistakenly pick up pants made for the opposite sex to wear.

When the Bible was written, NO ONE wore pants.  Why can men wear them now?

Actually Celts, Germans, Scytians, Sarmatians and the Persian peoples all did.

Lawl at Celts and Germans.

Even though most people think of Celts wearing kilts (these days at least) the Celts were noted for wearing pants (breecs I believed they were called) back during the Roman era. In fact the strongest evidence suggests that kilts were not worn until perhaps the mid to late 16th century, but possibly slightly before in small isolated areas. If you want references I'll have to scrounge them up, but I will try to provide them upon request.
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« Reply #75 on: May 04, 2012, 10:08:14 AM »

...the proper clothes for the right gender in church?

Honestly I think that's the point that you're not getting and the point that is at issue here. Proper clothes for the right gender are not Biblical, but rather cultural and historical.

After all, do you wear a robe and sandals to church on Sunday?

(and FWIW, I would probably fufill all your criteria for proper Biblical dress - long skirt, headcovering. Although I do wear a cross, wristwatch and earrings, I buy them at Walmart or thrift stores, and actually have an allergy to 14K gold, so no expensive jewelry.)
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« Reply #76 on: May 04, 2012, 10:21:13 AM »

My dilemma is that I LOVE Byzantine chant (especially in Arabic) but I also love the pewless churches and veiled women.

You can either go to a Greek/Arabic church and pray with your eyes closed, or go to a Russian church and pray with your fingers in your ears.
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« Reply #77 on: May 04, 2012, 03:48:42 PM »

It would be very nice to see every Orthodox woman in veil and dress during Church services but I dont think we should attack them for not dressing according to the Quran Shocked I meant Bible. I think it should be highly preferred that women dress in church with veil and dress as you would see in Slavic or some Arabic churches. My dilemma is that I LOVE Byzantine chant (especially in Arabic) but I also love the pewless churches and veiled women. So when people ask what jurisdiction I am I just say Orthodox.

I know, and the thread wasn't about attacking anybody. ?   Of course, many posters here immediately get defensive as if it is a personal attack, but its not.   They are too use to beating around the bush rather than addressing important questions at hand.   The thread was asking a comparison between a couple of American groups (OCA & GOA), to other EO groups such as ROCOR, who generally follow the scriptures in accordance to dress.   

ROCOR would not agree with the way many of the parishoners dress.   This is a scriptural issue to, not a latter church fight over calendars etc.
You have yet to show us pants in the Bible.

Ask ROCOR.
So why would ROCOR disagree with OCA?  Quit pointing this at me, its the churches that disagree.   You digress to point a finger so you can troll your way out of actually answering something.
It's not important.

There.

There's your answer.

Okay.
Sorry the scriptures in my OP are not important to you.
Interesting you would say that some EO churches find important are "not important".

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« Reply #78 on: May 04, 2012, 03:58:34 PM »

When the Bible was written, NO ONE wore pants.

Thread over. Isa wins again.


I know, the funniest thing about it, was that he didn't directly answer the question, but rather attacked a point, somebody saw it not in the context of what I wrote about it, and then it was declared over.

Typical here on OC.net.   A good question, somebody can't answer.  A side swiped 1 liner, declaration of over.
This wasn't even something that can be won.

Really sometimes I do question why I come here, and the immaturity that is presented. 

I was comparing EO to EO church.

Next thing I know, it goes to a pants argument in the cold.
Biblical writers wore robes.
Nobody really addressed the gold or expensive clothes.
Nobody answered head coverings, and why it is not enforced in OCA but is in ROCOR.

Then told "It's not important" by isa, yet it was admitted that ROCOR, OCA, and GOA is important.  LOL.   Of course, the issues are important to ROCOR, which obviously is in communion with the other two...

I've seen more straightforward answers from protestants.  At least they'll tell you they don't know, and not try to get you with the "ah ha" of digression.   You know, I can live with "I don't knows" - because "I don't know either"- that's why I was asking the question.


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« Reply #79 on: May 04, 2012, 04:15:17 PM »


When the Bible was written, NO ONE wore pants.

Thread over. Isa wins again.


I know, the funniest thing about it, was that he didn't directly answer the question, but rather attacked a point, somebody saw it not in the context of what I wrote about it, and then it was declared over.

Typical here on OC.net.   A good question, somebody can't answer.  A side swiped 1 liner, declaration of over.
This wasn't even something that can be won.

Really sometimes I do question why I come here, and the immaturity that is presented. 

I was comparing EO to EO church.

Next thing I know, it goes to a pants argument in the cold.
Biblical writers wore robes.
Nobody really addressed the gold or expensive clothes.
Nobody answered head coverings, and why it is not enforced in OCA but is in ROCOR.

Then told "It's not important" by isa, yet it was admitted that ROCOR, OCA, and GOA is important.  LOL.   Of course, the issues are important to ROCOR, which obviously is in communion with the other two...

I've seen more straightforward answers from protestants.  At least they'll tell you they don't know, and not try to get you with the "ah ha" of digression.   You know, I can live with "I don't knows" - because "I don't know either"- that's why I was asking the question.




ROCOR is more traditional in it's leanings. A lot of it has to do with after the Bolshevik Revolution the Russian Church Abroad wanted to maintain the whole of the Russian Orthodox way of life in the face of Soviet oppression.

Modern is not in ROCOR's vocabulary.

You will find headscarves and dresses in other jurisdictions as well though. Just in ROCOR it's standard practice.
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« Reply #80 on: May 04, 2012, 05:20:53 PM »

ROCOR is more traditional in it's leanings.

You are looking for the word I gave you anachronistic. There is nothing "traditional" about not only the practice moreover how it is played out. Literally played.

It is one of those fine things about tradition, once something is seen to be tradition, it ceases to be tradition as such at the very moment.

Traditionalists are always antithetical to authentic tradition. Thankfully, tradition still remains in the handing down, more precisely the giving over. The given is always there, whether it is asked for or not. It is always appropriated whether it is wanted or not.

That which is most given and thus most received remains the least conspicuous.

That which is not given at all and thus not received, no matter how much one might take what is offered, is the most conspicuous, contentious, and loudest about us.

EDIT: Or something like that.



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« Reply #81 on: May 04, 2012, 05:42:38 PM »

It's also important to remember that the Church does adapt for its various cultures. An African Orthodox Church would stand out like a sore thumb here in the States with its drums and dancing (and those women don't wear head covers and some people don't even wear shoes). Yes, America is a materialistic culture and that is unfortunately reflected in the parishes. But, I would start a crusade on women wearing lipstick before I would on oversized earrings.
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« Reply #82 on: May 04, 2012, 05:47:14 PM »

Last year, during the Supplications, the priest simply told the women that if they had lipstick, they were to tab it off before reverencing the icon. I wasn't wearing any, so I didn't have to worry. A couple people took out tissues and did what they had to do.

It's not something to turn into a federal case.
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« Reply #83 on: May 04, 2012, 05:47:20 PM »

I am conspicuous, contentious, and loud. Roll Eyes

Quote
It is one of those fine things about tradition, once something is seen to be tradition, it ceases to be tradition as such at the very moment.

Just listen to orthonorm. He is the standard-bearer of tradition. Oh wait, I shouldn't have said that. Now he's not.

Scripture gives the tradition of wearing headscarves. What would you call the practice if it is not traditional? Archaic? Out of fashion?

My girlfriend wears a headscarf and skirt to the Antiochian church we go to for Vespers during the week. She was brought up in Russia to wear it to church. She is not being conspicuous, contentious, or loud. Whether what is given and most received stands out or whether it blends in does not matter. What matters is the reason behind it, good sir.

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« Reply #84 on: May 04, 2012, 06:21:42 PM »

I am conspicuous, contentious, and loud. Roll Eyes

Quote
It is one of those fine things about tradition, once something is seen to be tradition, it ceases to be tradition as such at the very moment.

Just listen to orthonorm. He is the standard-bearer of tradition. Oh wait, I shouldn't have said that. Now he's not.

Scripture gives the tradition of wearing headscarves. What would you call the practice if it is not traditional? Archaic? Out of fashion?

My girlfriend wears a headscarf and skirt to the Antiochian church we go to for Vespers during the week. She was brought up in Russia to wear it to church. She is not being conspicuous, contentious, or loud. Whether what is given and most received stands out or whether it blends in does not matter. What matters is the reason behind it, good sir.



You speak of what you don't understand when it comes to that Scripture. That's why it is a problem for you. Don't worry most don't understand it either.

And you also obviously didn't understand what I wrote. Again, most don't. So don't worry.

Keep finding the manufactured and ignore tradition. Again, that's what most do.

The given will remain. It requires no subjective assent or dissent.

Tradition is not something that ever needs protecting or promulgating.
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« Reply #85 on: May 04, 2012, 07:35:41 PM »

Quote
ROCOR is more traditional in it's leanings. A lot of it has to do with after the Bolshevik Revolution the Russian Church Abroad wanted to maintain the whole of the Russian Orthodox way of life in the face of Soviet oppression.

Modern is not in ROCOR's vocabulary.

You will find headscarves and dresses in other jurisdictions as well though. Just in ROCOR it's standard practice.

I respect ROCOR a lot for this.   I believe firmly that ROCOR is following the scriptures as my OP put.   I also have seen head coverings in other jurisdictions including in America.  However, the OCA and GOA do seem to go off course with tradition and scripture, which is why I am curious that they do.  Now of course, this does not include all, but some.  I've seen many in scarves in both OCA and GOA, but it baffles me as to why they don't "say something" at least, to revert back to tradition.

Thanks for your answer.
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« Reply #86 on: May 04, 2012, 07:36:37 PM »

"How I hate the traditions of men."

Remember who said that?
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« Reply #87 on: May 04, 2012, 07:41:59 PM »

It's also important to remember that the Church does adapt for its various cultures. An African Orthodox Church would stand out like a sore thumb here in the States with its drums and dancing (and those women don't wear head covers and some people don't even wear shoes). Yes, America is a materialistic culture and that is unfortunately reflected in the parishes. But, I would start a crusade on women wearing lipstick before I would on oversized earrings.

I do agree with the adaptation.  Greek would have more leaning to Greek, Russian more Russian, etc.   But does cultural leanings come before the scriptures themselves?

In an Analogy, if somebody wore revealing cleavage to an OCA church let's say in... California.  From the scriptures telling women to dress modestly, the priest should at least address the attire as inappropriate.  As the scriptures tell to dress modestly, even though one could argue the culture of California is "cleavage".

In our culture, women do not typically cover for religious reasons, however the commands of the scripture tell them to.

I'm curious if the OCA or GOA leave it perhaps up to the individual to decide this?
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« Reply #88 on: May 04, 2012, 07:44:54 PM »

I am conspicuous, contentious, and loud. Roll Eyes

Quote
It is one of those fine things about tradition, once something is seen to be tradition, it ceases to be tradition as such at the very moment.

Just listen to orthonorm. He is the standard-bearer of tradition. Oh wait, I shouldn't have said that. Now he's not.

Scripture gives the tradition of wearing headscarves. What would you call the practice if it is not traditional? Archaic? Out of fashion?

My girlfriend wears a headscarf and skirt to the Antiochian church we go to for Vespers during the week. She was brought up in Russia to wear it to church. She is not being conspicuous, contentious, or loud. Whether what is given and most received stands out or whether it blends in does not matter. What matters is the reason behind it, good sir.



Of course, I believe it is done both out of tradition, but also as a command.   Being uncovered to a woman is the same as being shorn.  Her hair is her glory.   I really respect when EO churches basically instruct women on this.
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« Reply #89 on: May 04, 2012, 07:48:03 PM »

St. Paul is not the Savior. You do know that, don't you?
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« Reply #90 on: May 04, 2012, 07:49:48 PM »

"How I hate the traditions of men."

Remember who said that?

I'm not sure, please correct me if I'm wrong... Some women see head coverings as oppressive, or pushed on them.

If you are this way at all, you may want (if you like both sides of the story) to watch some youtube videos on the issue.  There are women who really LOVE to wear it, and see it as a complete sign of respect to their faith, church, husband, and God.   They don't feel bad at all on the issue.

In fact, my wife wears a head covering 24/7.  Not on my request, by her own research into it and a decision on her own.   She grew up protestant Methodist in Dallas, TX, and now is Anabaptist with heavy interest into Orthodoxy because of me.   I have incredible respect for the journey she has been on.  
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« Reply #91 on: May 04, 2012, 07:51:42 PM »

So, you ignored what I posted.

Why on Earth would I care what's on Youtube? Why do I want to watch somebody else's personal opinions?

I'm not stupid, I've seen people wear head coverings.

I'm not an Orthodox Jew, I don't think I have to shave my head and put a wig over it.

The hell do you think you are, anyway?
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« Reply #92 on: May 04, 2012, 07:54:34 PM »

St. Paul is not the Savior. You do know that, don't you?

I thought God was a quadity.  Huh

Of course.  Most people understand Paul to have been given many of the words of Christ through the apostles orally, and also think of him to have received knowledge of the church from the apostles.   Most EO Christians call him an apostle.
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« Reply #93 on: May 04, 2012, 07:56:43 PM »

So, you ignored what I posted.

Why on Earth would I care what's on Youtube? Why do I want to watch somebody else's personal opinions?

I'm not stupid, I've seen people wear head coverings.

I'm not an Orthodox Jew, I don't think I have to shave my head and put a wig over it.

The hell do you think you are, anyway?

No, I was responding to something else, then got to your reply.
Orthodox Patriarchs, theologians, and many experts on Christianity are on youtube.
Didn't say you were an Orthodox Jew.
Please stop cussing.   I'm not out to get you.

Read the scriptures and call me wrong.
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« Reply #94 on: May 04, 2012, 07:59:00 PM »

How many times do I have to say, I've read them, and I already posted umpteen things to show why you're wrong?

Do you buy bondsmen and not beat them because the slave is your money? That's in there too.

Talk about someone who can't see the forest for the trees.
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« Reply #95 on: May 04, 2012, 08:03:24 PM »

Quote
ROCOR is more traditional in it's leanings. A lot of it has to do with after the Bolshevik Revolution the Russian Church Abroad wanted to maintain the whole of the Russian Orthodox way of life in the face of Soviet oppression.

Modern is not in ROCOR's vocabulary.

You will find headscarves and dresses in other jurisdictions as well though. Just in ROCOR it's standard practice.

I respect ROCOR a lot for this.   I believe firmly that ROCOR is following the scriptures as my OP put.   I also have seen head coverings in other jurisdictions including in America.  However, the OCA and GOA do seem to go off course with tradition and scripture, which is why I am curious that they do.  Now of course, this does not include all, but some.  I've seen many in scarves in both OCA and GOA, but it baffles me as to why they don't "say something" at least, to revert back to tradition.
Yes, the Gospel is founded on scarves and Christ died to put them on women's heads and so they should be the top of the list of priorities of the OCA and GOA.  They will solve all our problems.
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« Reply #96 on: May 04, 2012, 08:07:32 PM »

You're tempting me to do a google image search...

I will resist...

I will...

(I'm going to the kitchen for something... for anything!)
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« Reply #97 on: May 04, 2012, 08:08:21 PM »

Quote
ROCOR is more traditional in it's leanings. A lot of it has to do with after the Bolshevik Revolution the Russian Church Abroad wanted to maintain the whole of the Russian Orthodox way of life in the face of Soviet oppression.

Modern is not in ROCOR's vocabulary.

You will find headscarves and dresses in other jurisdictions as well though. Just in ROCOR it's standard practice.

I respect ROCOR a lot for this.   I believe firmly that ROCOR is following the scriptures as my OP put.   I also have seen head coverings in other jurisdictions including in America.  However, the OCA and GOA do seem to go off course with tradition and scripture, which is why I am curious that they do.  Now of course, this does not include all, but some.  I've seen many in scarves in both OCA and GOA, but it baffles me as to why they don't "say something" at least, to revert back to tradition.
Yes, the Gospel is founded on scarves and Christ died to put them on women's heads and so they should be the top of the list of priorities of the OCA and GOA.  They will solve all our problems.


I actually spit this time.
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« Reply #98 on: May 04, 2012, 08:09:08 PM »



I've got to go sit down for a while.
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« Reply #99 on: May 04, 2012, 08:11:35 PM »

yeshuaisiam - any response to Reply #65 regarding legalism within ROCOR?
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« Reply #100 on: May 04, 2012, 08:52:11 PM »

How many times do I have to say, I've read them, and I already posted umpteen things to show why you're wrong?

Do you buy bondsmen and not beat them because the slave is your money? That's in there too.

Talk about someone who can't see the forest for the trees.
Actually you have NOT posted anything to show how I am wrong.

You mostly posted "ah ha" arguments, and said "what are you supposed to do in the winter".  You are not challenging me, you are challenging the scriptures.  Early Roman Catholic/Eastern Orthodox and Christian history practiced head coverings.   You are only losing credibility here by saying its wrong.
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« Reply #101 on: May 04, 2012, 08:54:54 PM »

Quote
ROCOR is more traditional in it's leanings. A lot of it has to do with after the Bolshevik Revolution the Russian Church Abroad wanted to maintain the whole of the Russian Orthodox way of life in the face of Soviet oppression.

Modern is not in ROCOR's vocabulary.

You will find headscarves and dresses in other jurisdictions as well though. Just in ROCOR it's standard practice.

I respect ROCOR a lot for this.   I believe firmly that ROCOR is following the scriptures as my OP put.   I also have seen head coverings in other jurisdictions including in America.  However, the OCA and GOA do seem to go off course with tradition and scripture, which is why I am curious that they do.  Now of course, this does not include all, but some.  I've seen many in scarves in both OCA and GOA, but it baffles me as to why they don't "say something" at least, to revert back to tradition.
Yes, the Gospel is founded on scarves and Christ died to put them on women's heads and so they should be the top of the list of priorities of the OCA and GOA.  They will solve all our problems.


This is the most incredible, ridiculous thing I've ever seen posted on OC net, and nearly on the internet.   WOW.
I'm really sure she was PRAYING without ceasing.  I'm sure she had modesty in mind.

PLAYBOY backs your point.... PLAYBOY.   Scriptures and early Christianity back mine.
Are you really Orthodox?
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« Reply #102 on: May 04, 2012, 09:01:14 PM »

To be fair, it is only Playboy. That's not even pornography, really. I mean, compared to the stuff I see online, the stuff in playboy is downright artistic and tastefully portrayed.

Also, I blame the fact that I ended up doing an image search for more pics from this issue on you people quoting it a bunch of times.
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« Reply #103 on: May 04, 2012, 09:03:19 PM »

yeshuaisiam - any response to Reply #65 regarding legalism within ROCOR?

Yes, sorry I missed it, was probably in a digressive argument.  As you see, I was just responded with a playboy pic.  LOL

Rocor follows 1 Corinthians 11.   That is the basis of the head covering, and has been through nearly all of Christian history.

Here is a thread from a different forum about it.

http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?1343-Women-and-head-coverings

With that said, in respect, I don't like to entertain questions when people say "Other than what the scriptures said".   I don't believe in casting off the scriptures in any biblical discussion.  

Besides, its not my argument, which is odd that so many are making it that way.

ROCOR follows the scripture, many in the OCA do not.  Obviously the scriptures read the way they do, and two churches in communion are not on par in this.

People are trying to make this a "Me vs. the church" argument.   In reality, its a ROCOR & OCA/GOA difference.   I just wanted to discuss.
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« Reply #104 on: May 04, 2012, 09:10:09 PM »

To be fair, it is only Playboy. That's not even pornography, really. I mean, compared to the stuff I see online, the stuff in playboy is downright artistic and tastefully portrayed.

Also, I blame the fact that I ended up doing an image search for more pics from this issue on you people quoting it a bunch of times.

Well, I'm sure there are tremendously vile things online, but Playboy is still lustful, immodest, and a ridiculous point.  Showing a head covering on a woman in playboy...  I would expect it from a non-Christian to make a point.   But somebody who proclaims to be Eastern Orthodox, where every single icon of a female shows women with a head covering, from the greater worldwide body of Orthodox practicing head coverings... The point in the argument for the OCA/GOA was playboy, trying to somehow say "not all head covering women are good".... Playboy... Speechless.
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« Reply #105 on: May 04, 2012, 09:21:24 PM »

yeshuaisiam - any response to Reply #65 regarding legalism within ROCOR?

Yes, sorry I missed it, was probably in a digressive argument.  As you see, I was just responded with a playboy pic.  LOL

Rocor follows 1 Corinthians 11.   That is the basis of the head covering, and has been through nearly all of Christian history.

Here is a thread from a different forum about it.

http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?1343-Women-and-head-coverings

With that said, in respect, I don't like to entertain questions when people say "Other than what the scriptures said".   I don't believe in casting off the scriptures in any biblical discussion.  

Besides, its not my argument, which is odd that so many are making it that way.

ROCOR follows the scripture, many in the OCA do not.  Obviously the scriptures read the way they do, and two churches in communion are not on par in this.

People are trying to make this a "Me vs. the church" argument.   In reality, its a ROCOR & OCA/GOA difference.   I just wanted to discuss.

We beat this topic to death in this thread.


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« Reply #106 on: May 04, 2012, 09:48:30 PM »

Quote
ROCOR is more traditional in it's leanings. A lot of it has to do with after the Bolshevik Revolution the Russian Church Abroad wanted to maintain the whole of the Russian Orthodox way of life in the face of Soviet oppression.

Modern is not in ROCOR's vocabulary.

You will find headscarves and dresses in other jurisdictions as well though. Just in ROCOR it's standard practice.

I respect ROCOR a lot for this.   I believe firmly that ROCOR is following the scriptures as my OP put.   I also have seen head coverings in other jurisdictions including in America.  However, the OCA and GOA do seem to go off course with tradition and scripture, which is why I am curious that they do.  Now of course, this does not include all, but some.  I've seen many in scarves in both OCA and GOA, but it baffles me as to why they don't "say something" at least, to revert back to tradition.
Yes, the Gospel is founded on scarves and Christ died to put them on women's heads and so they should be the top of the list of priorities of the OCA and GOA.  They will solve all our problems.


This is the most incredible, ridiculous thing I've ever seen posted on OC net, and nearly on the internet.   WOW.
I'm really sure she was PRAYING without ceasing.  I'm sure she had modesty in mind.

PLAYBOY backs your point.... PLAYBOY.   Scriptures and early Christianity back mine.
Are you really Orthodox?
Yes.  Are you?

PLAYBOY backs your point...don't you see the head covering?

And I won't post it, but she isn't wearing pants.
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« Reply #107 on: May 04, 2012, 10:40:08 PM »

Yes.  Are you?

PLAYBOY backs your point...don't you see the head covering?

And I won't post it, but she isn't wearing pants.

Why not? Let's see the difference in why her wearing a head covering and Orthodox women wearing one mean basically the same thing.  You should post it. Perhaps I'll be able to understand how they are the same if I see a naked girl wearing a head covering.

This gives me the idea of not wearing any pants to Liturgy Sunday. I wouldn't want to stand out in my ridiculously modest pants. Maybe I can liberate the nun that attends our parish from time to time to see her head covering as an outdated practice too-- not fit for a post Christian 21st century.

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« Reply #108 on: May 04, 2012, 11:44:04 PM »

Yes.  Are you?

PLAYBOY backs your point...don't you see the head covering?

And I won't post it, but she isn't wearing pants.

Why not? Let's see the difference in why her wearing a head covering and Orthodox women wearing one mean basically the same thing.  You should post it. Perhaps I'll be able to understand how they are the same if I see a naked girl wearing a head covering.
How's this?

Somehow I don't think they are Orthodox.  I know these aren't

They are wearing pants.

This gives me the idea of not wearing any pants to Liturgy Sunday
Jesus didn't wear any, why should you.

I wouldn't want to stand out in my ridiculously modest pants.

Modest isn't the point. What is in the Bible is what is important.  Jesusiam says so.  There are no pants in the Bible.

Maybe I can liberate the nun that attends our parish from time to time to see her head covering as an outdated practice too-- not fit for a post Christian 21st century.
As long as she doesn't wear pants.
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« Reply #109 on: May 05, 2012, 12:00:58 AM »

Isa owns.

You're tempting me to do a google image search...

I will resist...

I will...

(I'm going to the kitchen for something... for anything!)
I'm tempted to respond to you...
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« Reply #110 on: May 05, 2012, 01:34:43 AM »

Just wanted to point something out.

A while back I was having a discussion with my priest and the discussion some how turned to head coverings (I don't know how, as I have no reason to ever wear one despite my propensity to wear a man-skirt on the daily). Any way, my priest told me that he would prefer women to wear a head covering for the right reasons than for the wrong one. The right reason being that it is commanded in the scriptures and the woman was doing it to further her spiritual life. The wrong reason being the materialistic side to the issue. Yes, some women wear head coverings for spiritual reasons and others wear head coverings because everybody else is, and they want to fit in, or have the best and most expensive head scarf. It pretty much boils down to are you following the command for your own spirituality, or are you following it for your own pride?

That is when wearing a head scarf stops being modest and starts being immodest, or at least go against the whole no expensive clothing thing?

That is part of the reason why some jurisdictions exercise economia instead of a strict legalism.

Now can somebody answer my kilt question? 
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« Reply #111 on: May 05, 2012, 01:45:16 AM »

Just wanted to point something out.

A while back I was having a discussion with my priest and the discussion some how turned to head coverings (I don't know how, as I have no reason to ever wear one despite my propensity to wear a man-skirt on the daily). Any way, my priest told me that he would prefer women to wear a head covering for the right reasons than for the wrong one. The right reason being that it is commanded in the scriptures and the woman was doing it to further her spiritual life. The wrong reason being the materialistic side to the issue. Yes, some women wear head coverings for spiritual reasons and others wear head coverings because everybody else is, and they want to fit in, or have the best and most expensive head scarf. It pretty much boils down to are you following the command for your own spirituality, or are you following it for your own pride?

That is when wearing a head scarf stops being modest and starts being immodest, or at least go against the whole no expensive clothing thing?

That is part of the reason why some jurisdictions exercise economia instead of a strict legalism.

Now can somebody answer my kilt question? 
You mean, if you can wear anything underneath?
Up through at least WWII part of the Sergeant Major' inspection of Scottish Regiments in Kilts would include making sure they were going 'regimental'. Though requirement shave been relaxed since then, it's still encouraged.

Which reminds me of a rather famous photo now (I don't know if this crosses forum rules or not, it's probably borderline, but it's a rather famous and well published photo of cultural value and it really doesn't show that much):

(Warning! The image in this link shows male posterior nudity.) http://www.halfthedeck.com/images/Priceless%20Kilt.jpg

If I recall part of the story properly, the young soldier's Sergeant took look one glance at the photo and quickly reprimanded the young man who's kilt was blowing in the wind. As I'm sure you noticed, his socks arn't even. Cheesy

I'd ask what "requirement shave" means but ( Tongue) given your link, I think I don't want to know.

Btw, I don't find the posterior gender neutral in the slightest.
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« Reply #112 on: May 05, 2012, 04:30:19 AM »

Just wanted to point something out.

A while back I was having a discussion with my priest and the discussion some how turned to head coverings (I don't know how, as I have no reason to ever wear one despite my propensity to wear a man-skirt on the daily). Any way, my priest told me that he would prefer women to wear a head covering for the right reasons than for the wrong one. The right reason being that it is commanded in the scriptures and the woman was doing it to further her spiritual life. The wrong reason being the materialistic side to the issue. Yes, some women wear head coverings for spiritual reasons and others wear head coverings because everybody else is, and they want to fit in, or have the best and most expensive head scarf. It pretty much boils down to are you following the command for your own spirituality, or are you following it for your own pride?

That is when wearing a head scarf stops being modest and starts being immodest, or at least go against the whole no expensive clothing thing?

That is part of the reason why some jurisdictions exercise economia instead of a strict legalism.

Now can somebody answer my kilt question? 
You mean, if you can wear anything underneath?
Up through at least WWII part of the Sergeant Major' inspection of Scottish Regiments in Kilts would include making sure they were going 'regimental'. Though requirement shave been relaxed since then, it's still encouraged.

Which reminds me of a rather famous photo now (I don't know if this crosses forum rules or not, it's probably borderline, but it's a rather famous and well published photo of cultural value and it really doesn't show that much):

(Warning! The image in this link shows male posterior nudity.) http://www.halfthedeck.com/images/Priceless%20Kilt.jpg

If I recall part of the story properly, the young soldier's Sergeant took look one glance at the photo and quickly reprimanded the young man who's kilt was blowing in the wind. As I'm sure you noticed, his socks arn't even. Cheesy

I'd ask what "requirement shave" means but ( Tongue) given your link, I think I don't want to know.

Btw, I don't find the posterior gender neutral in the slightest.

I always wear something underneath my kilt... socks and shoes
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« Reply #113 on: May 05, 2012, 05:30:53 AM »

Quote
where every single icon of a female shows women with a head covering,

Nonsense, yeshuisiam. Quite a few female saints are shown with their hair uncovered in the icons. St Mary of Egypt is the best-known example.

On women wearing something on their heads: Countless women attending church wear a small hat or beret, or a strip of translucent fabric, or a triangle of lace, yet most, if not all, of their hair is visible. The scriptural instruction for women to cover their heads says that their hair should be covered, as this is their "glory", "for the sake of the angels" (presumably so as not to offend them?). If scripture is to be followed as scrupulously as yeshuaisiam would like it to be, then this minimalist approach is no different than going bareheaded.
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« Reply #114 on: May 05, 2012, 04:13:01 PM »

Yes.  Are you?

PLAYBOY backs your point...don't you see the head covering?

And I won't post it, but she isn't wearing pants.

Why not? Let's see the difference in why her wearing a head covering and Orthodox women wearing one mean basically the same thing.  You should post it. Perhaps I'll be able to understand how they are the same if I see a naked girl wearing a head covering.
How's this?

Somehow I don't think they are Orthodox.  I know these aren't

They are wearing pants.

This gives me the idea of not wearing any pants to Liturgy Sunday
Jesus didn't wear any, why should you.

I wouldn't want to stand out in my ridiculously modest pants.

Modest isn't the point. What is in the Bible is what is important.  Jesusiam says so.  There are no pants in the Bible.

Maybe I can liberate the nun that attends our parish from time to time to see her head covering as an outdated practice too-- not fit for a post Christian 21st century.
As long as she doesn't wear pants.


There was an ad in the morning paper for something called True Evangelical Church with a tagline of 'worship like in the first century.'

I wonder if the preacher will wear pants?
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« Reply #115 on: May 05, 2012, 04:20:39 PM »

Just wanted to point something out.

A while back I was having a discussion with my priest and the discussion some how turned to head coverings (I don't know how, as I have no reason to ever wear one despite my propensity to wear a man-skirt on the daily). Any way, my priest told me that he would prefer women to wear a head covering for the right reasons than for the wrong one. The right reason being that it is commanded in the scriptures and the woman was doing it to further her spiritual life. The wrong reason being the materialistic side to the issue. Yes, some women wear head coverings for spiritual reasons and others wear head coverings because everybody else is, and they want to fit in, or have the best and most expensive head scarf. It pretty much boils down to are you following the command for your own spirituality, or are you following it for your own pride?

That is when wearing a head scarf stops being modest and starts being immodest, or at least go against the whole no expensive clothing thing?

That is part of the reason why some jurisdictions exercise economia instead of a strict legalism.

Now can somebody answer my kilt question? 

Sorry to you and Schultz, you seem like great guys. But kilts are for goofs. There is your answer.

And what is the "spiritual reason" for women covering their hair. It is arguably the most poorly exegeted Pauline passage.

Gotta remember. A letter to a parish at a particular time. Context is everything.
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« Reply #116 on: May 05, 2012, 11:14:13 PM »

I dont know why everyone is bashing this very pious sacred tradition!

I dont think women should cover their hair on a daily 24/7 but I think that more Americans should follow this practice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5C8D2hI6UY&feature=player_detailpage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=qcH4PY-Wsxk
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« Reply #117 on: May 06, 2012, 01:37:22 AM »

Just wanted to point something out.

A while back I was having a discussion with my priest and the discussion some how turned to head coverings (I don't know how, as I have no reason to ever wear one despite my propensity to wear a man-skirt on the daily). Any way, my priest told me that he would prefer women to wear a head covering for the right reasons than for the wrong one. The right reason being that it is commanded in the scriptures and the woman was doing it to further her spiritual life. The wrong reason being the materialistic side to the issue. Yes, some women wear head coverings for spiritual reasons and others wear head coverings because everybody else is, and they want to fit in, or have the best and most expensive head scarf. It pretty much boils down to are you following the command for your own spirituality, or are you following it for your own pride?

That is when wearing a head scarf stops being modest and starts being immodest, or at least go against the whole no expensive clothing thing?

That is part of the reason why some jurisdictions exercise economia instead of a strict legalism.

Now can somebody answer my kilt question? 

Sorry to you and Schultz, you seem like great guys. But kilts are for goofs. There is your answer.

And what is the "spiritual reason" for women covering their hair. It is arguably the most poorly exegeted Pauline passage.

Gotta remember. A letter to a parish at a particular time. Context is everything.

Honestly, I don't know what a truly spiritual reason would be for women covering their hair, aside from they are told to do so in scripture and they feel more spiritually fulfilled. But other than that I can't think of anything, and that is probably a poor example anyway, like my post was a poor paraphrasing of what my priest said.

Have you ever worn a kilt? I can not begin to describe to you the freedom! It's really versatile as far as clothing goes; keeps you cool in the summer (I wear mine hiking even), warm in the winter (except for really strong breezes), looks good with t-shirts, looks good with a tie and jacket. Wearing one almost always makes the wearer an instant bad@$$ (for example I went to a nice little biker bar wearing my kilt and the one guy who tried to mess with me was promptly put back into his place by the other patrons of the bar). And last but not least zero to naked in under 2 seconds.  Grin
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« Reply #118 on: May 06, 2012, 01:50:31 AM »

Just wanted to point something out.

A while back I was having a discussion with my priest and the discussion some how turned to head coverings (I don't know how, as I have no reason to ever wear one despite my propensity to wear a man-skirt on the daily). Any way, my priest told me that he would prefer women to wear a head covering for the right reasons than for the wrong one. The right reason being that it is commanded in the scriptures and the woman was doing it to further her spiritual life. The wrong reason being the materialistic side to the issue. Yes, some women wear head coverings for spiritual reasons and others wear head coverings because everybody else is, and they want to fit in, or have the best and most expensive head scarf. It pretty much boils down to are you following the command for your own spirituality, or are you following it for your own pride?

That is when wearing a head scarf stops being modest and starts being immodest, or at least go against the whole no expensive clothing thing?

That is part of the reason why some jurisdictions exercise economia instead of a strict legalism.

Now can somebody answer my kilt question?  

Sorry to you and Schultz, you seem like great guys. But kilts are for goofs. There is your answer.

And what is the "spiritual reason" for women covering their hair. It is arguably the most poorly exegeted Pauline passage.

Gotta remember. A letter to a parish at a particular time. Context is everything.

Honestly, I don't know what a truly spiritual reason would be for women covering their hair, aside from they are told to do so in scripture and they feel more spiritually fulfilled. But other than that I can't think of anything, and that is probably a poor example anyway, like my post was a poor paraphrasing of what my priest said.

Have you ever worn a kilt? I can not begin to describe to you the freedom! It's really versatile as far as clothing goes; keeps you cool in the summer (I wear mine hiking even), warm in the winter (except for really strong breezes), looks good with t-shirts, looks good with a tie and jacket. Wearing one almost always makes the wearer an instant bad@$$ (for example I went to a nice little biker bar wearing my kilt and the one guy who tried to mess with me was promptly put back into his place by the other patrons of the bar). And last but not least zero to naked in under 2 seconds.  Grin

Granted.

And yet it is goofy. Goofier than shorts.

Men cover their legs and their feet.

But yes I do see the merits of which you pose, but as some who enjoys others covering themselves, especially men covering their legs and feet, I will stand by my statement.

And present company excluded, every guy I ever met who wore a quilt was an attention          . Or worse.



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« Reply #119 on: May 06, 2012, 01:52:58 AM »

Honestly, I don't know what a truly spiritual reason would be for women covering their hair, aside from they are told to do so in scripture and they feel more spiritually fulfilled. But other than that I can't think of anything, and that is probably a poor example anyway, like my post was a poor paraphrasing of what my priest said.

Weird how the odox harp on the women thing and yet love their Priests and Bishops with theirs heads covered.

Seems like Paul has some words about that as well.

Again, a particular letter to a particular place at a particular time with particular problems.



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« Reply #120 on: May 06, 2012, 02:21:53 AM »

Honestly, I don't know what a truly spiritual reason would be for women covering their hair, aside from they are told to do so in scripture and they feel more spiritually fulfilled. But other than that I can't think of anything, and that is probably a poor example anyway, like my post was a poor paraphrasing of what my priest said.

Weird how the odox harp on the women thing and yet love their Priests and Bishops with theirs heads covered.

Seems like Paul has some words about that as well.

Again, a particular letter to a particular place at a particular time with particular problems.





Laying the kilt issue aside for now...

As to harping on women, well I think it is up to the individual if they want to cover their heads or not. I'm not going to sit/stand and judge this woman or that for wearing or not wearing a head covering. My wife has expressed interest in wearing a head covering when our daughter gets older and wont pull it off her head/play with/destroy the thing.

At my parish some women do wear head coverings and some do not, perhaps the most notable person in my mind who does wear one is the wife of a deacon. It's not her being married to a deacon that makes her notable, but just how she is. Everybody knows her and she is more than willing to help everybody in the parish, whether the be inquirers to converts to cradles.

At the same time the most notable person in my mind who does not wear a head covering is the priest's wife. Again, she is not notable because of her husband's station, but because of the person she is helping to run certain things at the parish and the parishioners.

I've never had the pleasure to see a bishop come to my parish (the military always seems to get in the way) so I have never had the pleasure of meeting a bishop or see one conduct a service with or with out a nifty hat. I have never seen my priest wearing a hat for any reason - at church or out and about. So, that being said I have no position on priests/bishops wearing headgear.
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« Reply #121 on: May 06, 2012, 02:26:25 AM »

Honestly, I don't know what a truly spiritual reason would be for women covering their hair, aside from they are told to do so in scripture and they feel more spiritually fulfilled. But other than that I can't think of anything, and that is probably a poor example anyway, like my post was a poor paraphrasing of what my priest said.

Weird how the odox harp on the women thing and yet love their Priests and Bishops with theirs heads covered.

Seems like Paul has some words about that as well.

Again, a particular letter to a particular place at a particular time with particular problems.





Laying the kilt issue aside for now...

As to harping on women, well I think it is up to the individual if they want to cover their heads or not. I'm not going to sit/stand and judge this woman or that for wearing or not wearing a head covering. My wife has expressed interest in wearing a head covering when our daughter gets older and wont pull it off her head/play with/destroy the thing.

At my parish some women do wear head coverings and some do not, perhaps the most notable person in my mind who does wear one is the wife of a deacon. It's not her being married to a deacon that makes her notable, but just how she is. Everybody knows her and she is more than willing to help everybody in the parish, whether the be inquirers to converts to cradles.

At the same time the most notable person in my mind who does not wear a head covering is the priest's wife. Again, she is not notable because of her husband's station, but because of the person she is helping to run certain things at the parish and the parishioners.

I've never had the pleasure to see a bishop come to my parish (the military always seems to get in the way) so I have never had the pleasure of meeting a bishop or see one conduct a service with or with out a nifty hat. I have never seen my priest wearing a hat for any reason - at church or out and about. So, that being said I have no position on priests/bishops wearing headgear.

But you do get the point. Priests and Bishops violate Paul's words. And you have folks within and without odoxy insisting on women following those specific ones.

BTW, thank you for your service to our country. Kilt or otherwise.
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« Reply #122 on: May 06, 2012, 02:36:29 AM »

Honestly, I don't know what a truly spiritual reason would be for women covering their hair, aside from they are told to do so in scripture and they feel more spiritually fulfilled. But other than that I can't think of anything, and that is probably a poor example anyway, like my post was a poor paraphrasing of what my priest said.

Weird how the odox harp on the women thing and yet love their Priests and Bishops with theirs heads covered.

Seems like Paul has some words about that as well.

Again, a particular letter to a particular place at a particular time with particular problems.





Laying the kilt issue aside for now...

As to harping on women, well I think it is up to the individual if they want to cover their heads or not. I'm not going to sit/stand and judge this woman or that for wearing or not wearing a head covering. My wife has expressed interest in wearing a head covering when our daughter gets older and wont pull it off her head/play with/destroy the thing.

At my parish some women do wear head coverings and some do not, perhaps the most notable person in my mind who does wear one is the wife of a deacon. It's not her being married to a deacon that makes her notable, but just how she is. Everybody knows her and she is more than willing to help everybody in the parish, whether the be inquirers to converts to cradles.

At the same time the most notable person in my mind who does not wear a head covering is the priest's wife. Again, she is not notable because of her husband's station, but because of the person she is helping to run certain things at the parish and the parishioners.

I've never had the pleasure to see a bishop come to my parish (the military always seems to get in the way) so I have never had the pleasure of meeting a bishop or see one conduct a service with or with out a nifty hat. I have never seen my priest wearing a hat for any reason - at church or out and about. So, that being said I have no position on priests/bishops wearing headgear.

But you do get the point. Priests and Bishops violate Paul's words. And you have folks within and without odoxy insisting on women following those specific ones.

BTW, thank you for your service to our country. Kilt or otherwise.

Yes, I do get the point. I don't know why there is that... hypocrisy? toward that one point. To me it is individual preference. Just like if I want to fast, or break the fast. Or to keep a daily prayer rule or not.

Thank you, though I must say my kilt has no bearing on my military service.  Cool
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« Reply #123 on: May 06, 2012, 02:52:48 AM »

I think it should be highly preferred that women dress in church with veil and dress as you would see in Slavic or some Arabic churches.
Which Arabic churches? The Holy Synod of Antioch (EO) has actually banned women other than nuns from wearing veils, in order to  avoid giving the impression to Muslims that "hijab also exists in Christianity", as some of them claimed.

Coptic women usually wear headscarves to communion and take off their shoes, but then again, they don't use the Byzantine rite. In Alexandria (EO), you see some women of Coptic background putting on some kind of veil for communion, but none of the natives EOs (Greek or Lebanese) does.

Anyway, anyone who insists on "Biblical dress" should familiarise himself first with the Orthodox understanding of scripture and with God looking at the heart.

As for ROCOR, their dress seems to be more motivated by formalism and following tsarist Russian practice than by biblical literalism.
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« Reply #124 on: May 06, 2012, 03:38:58 PM »

I think it should be highly preferred that women dress in church with veil and dress as you would see in Slavic or some Arabic churches.
Which Arabic churches? The Holy Synod of Antioch (EO) has actually banned women other than nuns from wearing veils, in order to  avoid giving the impression to Muslims that "hijab also exists in Christianity", as some of them claimed.

Coptic women usually wear headscarves to communion and take off their shoes, but then again, they don't use the Byzantine rite. In Alexandria (EO), you see some women of Coptic background putting on some kind of veil for communion, but none of the natives EOs (Greek or Lebanese) does.

Anyway, anyone who insists on "Biblical dress" should familiarise himself first with the Orthodox understanding of scripture and with God looking at the heart.

As for ROCOR, their dress seems to be more motivated by formalism and following tsarist Russian practice than by biblical literalism.

In the Antiochian church that I went to, most of the Arab women wore a veil (lace mantilla style) to communion. Ive never head of any Orthodox church banning the veil...ever (I doubt that this happened)! The notion that "hijab exists in Christianity" was developed by Western Protestants and a few Catholics but I highly doubt that any Orthodox women were involved although there are very few women who wear the scarf daily (there is a tradition that widowed women wear the veil daily). Oriental Orthodox women wear headscarves or veils to communion.

Whenever Fairuz sings in churches for the Great Feasts, she is always wearing a veil:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pHJMGGhvPQ&feature=player_detailpage     
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« Reply #125 on: May 06, 2012, 05:27:33 PM »

In fact, my wife wears a head covering 24/7.

Allahu akbar!

(That's Arabic/Islamic for "God is the greatest".)
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« Reply #126 on: May 06, 2012, 05:32:38 PM »

In the Antiochian church that I went to, most of the Arab women wore a veil (lace mantilla style) to communion. Ive never head of any Orthodox church banning the veil...ever (I doubt that this happened)!
I can only tell you what I heard, and in the Antiochian churches I went to (in Europe), not a single woman wore a headscarf, whereas in the Arab parishes in Alexandria and Cairo, not a single Antiochian woman wears a headscarf, only some Copts do.

The notion that "hijab exists in Christianity" was developed by Western Protestants and a few Catholics
You misunderstood. I meant Muslims claiming that there was such a thing as hijab in Christianity as well.
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« Reply #127 on: May 06, 2012, 05:49:44 PM »

In fact, my wife wears a head covering 24/7.

Allahu akbar!

(That's Arabic/Islamic for "God is the greatest".)

I know nothing about Arabic, well not in any meaningful sense, but I see people (Muslims) gloss that in English as God is greater and make a point of it being a meaningful difference.

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« Reply #128 on: May 06, 2012, 08:06:56 PM »

The regular Arabic adjective has two forms, fa3eel and af3al. fa3il is the normal form, whereas af3al is the increased form. (There also are feminine forms, and words with different morphology, but two point is: whereas English has 3 forms: great, greater, the greatest, Arabic has only two).

For example, "kabir" is fa3eel and means great. Its af3al is "akbar". If it stands alone, it means "the greatest". It only means "greater" if a comparison is induced by the preposition min.

So, "Allahu akbar" means "God is the greatest". But "Allahu akbar min ash-Shaitan", for example, means "God is greater than Satan".
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« Reply #129 on: May 06, 2012, 08:33:50 PM »

Just wanted to point something out.

A while back I was having a discussion with my priest and the discussion some how turned to head coverings (I don't know how, as I have no reason to ever wear one despite my propensity to wear a man-skirt on the daily). Any way, my priest told me that he would prefer women to wear a head covering for the right reasons than for the wrong one. The right reason being that it is commanded in the scriptures and the woman was doing it to further her spiritual life. The wrong reason being the materialistic side to the issue. Yes, some women wear head coverings for spiritual reasons and others wear head coverings because everybody else is, and they want to fit in, or have the best and most expensive head scarf. It pretty much boils down to are you following the command for your own spirituality, or are you following it for your own pride?

That is when wearing a head scarf stops being modest and starts being immodest, or at least go against the whole no expensive clothing thing?

That is part of the reason why some jurisdictions exercise economia instead of a strict legalism.

Now can somebody answer my kilt question?  

Sorry to you and Schultz, you seem like great guys. But kilts are for goofs. There is your answer.

And what is the "spiritual reason" for women covering their hair. It is arguably the most poorly exegeted Pauline passage.

Gotta remember. A letter to a parish at a particular time. Context is everything.

Honestly, I don't know what a truly spiritual reason would be for women covering their hair, aside from they are told to do so in scripture and they feel more spiritually fulfilled. But other than that I can't think of anything, and that is probably a poor example anyway, like my post was a poor paraphrasing of what my priest said.

Have you ever worn a kilt? I can not begin to describe to you the freedom! It's really versatile as far as clothing goes; keeps you cool in the summer (I wear mine hiking even), warm in the winter (except for really strong breezes), looks good with t-shirts, looks good with a tie and jacket. Wearing one almost always makes the wearer an instant bad@$$ (for example I went to a nice little biker bar wearing my kilt and the one guy who tried to mess with me was promptly put back into his place by the other patrons of the bar). And last but not least zero to naked in under 2 seconds.  Grin

Granted.

And yet it is goofy. Goofier than shorts.

Men cover their legs and their feet.

But yes I do see the merits of which you pose, but as some who enjoys others covering themselves, especially men covering their legs and feet, I will stand by my statement.

And present company excluded, every guy I ever met who wore a quilt was an attention          . Or worse.






When I wear a kilt, aside from my knee caps, my legs and feet are covered.  A properly made kilt bisects the knee and kilt hose come up to just below the knee cap.

I only saying this because I know you're a stickler for details.

And any guy I've ever met who had anything to say to me or any other kiltwearer about wearing them was usually a *first word in a Russian punk band that recently caused a stir in Moscow*.   police
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« Reply #130 on: May 07, 2012, 11:54:41 AM »

looks good with t-shirts, looks good with a tie and jacket. Wearing one almost always makes the wearer an instant bad@$$...

At the risk of derailing this highly entertaining thread, I couldn't let this one pass.

No, it doesn't.

(Katherine gets up to get more popcorn)
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« Reply #131 on: May 07, 2012, 12:35:23 PM »

Honestly, I don't know what a truly spiritual reason would be for women covering their hair, aside from they are told to do so in scripture and they feel more spiritually fulfilled. But other than that I can't think of anything, and that is probably a poor example anyway, like my post was a poor paraphrasing of what my priest said.

Weird how the odox harp on the women thing and yet love their Priests and Bishops with theirs heads covered.

Seems like Paul has some words about that as well.

Again, a particular letter to a particular place at a particular time with particular problems.





Laying the kilt issue aside for now...

As to harping on women, well I think it is up to the individual if they want to cover their heads or not. I'm not going to sit/stand and judge this woman or that for wearing or not wearing a head covering. My wife has expressed interest in wearing a head covering when our daughter gets older and wont pull it off her head/play with/destroy the thing.

At my parish some women do wear head coverings and some do not, perhaps the most notable person in my mind who does wear one is the wife of a deacon. It's not her being married to a deacon that makes her notable, but just how she is. Everybody knows her and she is more than willing to help everybody in the parish, whether the be inquirers to converts to cradles.

At the same time the most notable person in my mind who does not wear a head covering is the priest's wife. Again, she is not notable because of her husband's station, but because of the person she is helping to run certain things at the parish and the parishioners.

I've never had the pleasure to see a bishop come to my parish (the military always seems to get in the way) so I have never had the pleasure of meeting a bishop or see one conduct a service with or with out a nifty hat. I have never seen my priest wearing a hat for any reason - at church or out and about. So, that being said I have no position on priests/bishops wearing headgear.

But you do get the point. Priests and Bishops violate Paul's words. And you have folks within and without odoxy insisting on women following those specific ones.

BTW, thank you for your service to our country. Kilt or otherwise.

Yes, I do get the point. I don't know why there is that... hypocrisy? toward that one point. To me it is individual preference. Just like if I want to fast, or break the fast. Or to keep a daily prayer rule or not.

Thank you, though I must say my kilt has no bearing on my military service.  Cool
only on windy days. Shocked
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« Reply #132 on: May 07, 2012, 12:40:52 PM »

I think it should be highly preferred that women dress in church with veil and dress as you would see in Slavic or some Arabic churches.
Which Arabic churches? The Holy Synod of Antioch (EO) has actually banned women other than nuns from wearing veils, in order to  avoid giving the impression to Muslims that "hijab also exists in Christianity", as some of them claimed.

Coptic women usually wear headscarves to communion and take off their shoes, but then again, they don't use the Byzantine rite. In Alexandria (EO), you see some women of Coptic background putting on some kind of veil for communion, but none of the natives EOs (Greek or Lebanese) does.

Anyway, anyone who insists on "Biblical dress" should familiarise himself first with the Orthodox understanding of scripture and with God looking at the heart.

As for ROCOR, their dress seems to be more motivated by formalism and following tsarist Russian practice than by biblical literalism.
Yes, I'm afraid there is truth to the last point.

As to the Arabs, it is the same with beards:having a beard amongst Christians is seen as a Muslim thing (the Islamists now placing as great an emphasis on that as the Old Believers).  Shaving can be an evangelical statement.
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                           and both come out of your mouth
Gorazd
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« Reply #133 on: May 07, 2012, 02:39:25 PM »

As to the Arabs, it is the same with beards:having a beard amongst Christians is seen as a Muslim thing
Yes, or as a sign of belonging to the clergy. Arab Priests mostly wear a beard, also some lay theologians.
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Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
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« Reply #134 on: May 07, 2012, 08:11:36 PM »

Folks, I am locking this thread until further notice as there are couple of issues that I plan to discuss with the moderator team. Second Chance
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Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
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