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Author Topic: This is an Evil Planet  (Read 3012 times) Average Rating: 0
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amartin
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« on: May 02, 2012, 05:56:50 PM »

Its not just humans. Look at all the species murdering and eating each other. From an enlightened perspective, this is absolutely crazy and totally shocking. It is not the divine order. The prophets said that one day in the new heavens and new earth the sheep will lay down with the wolf peacefully. That is how they are supposed to be. The truth is that all predators and carnivores are intrinsically evil. Vegetarianism is taught by all the highest spiritual traditions: Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism, Essenes, Nazarenes, Christian monasticism. etc. Please, stop eating flesh!
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« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2012, 06:02:04 PM »

Really, you are not very good at what you do.

Spend about 10 more years studying good trolls and practicing, then use your ostensibly different IP and create a new username and come back and be a useful force here.

Here's to 2022!

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« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2012, 06:02:38 PM »

After the resurrection the disciples went back to being fishermen for a time. I have always lamented this, as I do not like fish. I prefer chicken, pig, or cow. Perhaps that is because I am an American. If I lived in an exotic locale in SE Asia would I consider chilled monkey brains a delicacy? I don't know...
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« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2012, 06:03:09 PM »

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« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2012, 06:03:43 PM »

No, it's not an evil planet. Don't buy into that Gnostic fatalism.

"And the Lord looked at all that He had made, and He saw that it was very good."
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« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2012, 06:05:06 PM »

After the resurrection the disciples went back to being fishermen for a time. I have always lamented this, as I do not like fish. I prefer chicken, pig, or cow. Perhaps that is because I am an American. If I lived in an exotic locale in SE Asia would I consider chilled monkey brains a delicacy? I don't know...


AH! Chilled monkey brains!
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« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2012, 06:05:36 PM »

pig,

Unbelievable! They roll around in their own feces. One of the most evil animals on the planet. Used by Satanists in their worship.
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« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2012, 06:07:10 PM »

pig,

Unbelievable! They roll around in their own feces. One of the most evil animals on the planet. Used by Satanists in their worship.

At least you can wash them. Not like eating pidgeon, eagle, vulture, buzzard, or other birds that will eat garbage and carrion.  Talk about tasting like what you eat!
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« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2012, 06:07:19 PM »

pig,

Unbelievable! They roll around in their own feces. One of the most evil animals on the planet. Used by Satanists in their worship.

Who cares?
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« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2012, 06:08:08 PM »

If loving pork is wrong, I don't wanna be right!
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« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2012, 06:10:17 PM »

At first I thought this thread said "This is an Evil Plan", which made me think of Baldrick from Blackadder and his many cunning plans.

If loving pork is wrong, I don't wanna be right!
Amen to this!
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« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2012, 06:13:18 PM »

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« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2012, 06:15:09 PM »

If loving pork is wrong, I don't wanna be right!

You love pigs huh. Well as the saying goes, "You are what you eat."
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« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2012, 06:16:48 PM »

If loving pork is wrong, I don't wanna be right!

You love pigs huh. Well as the saying goes, "You are what you eat."

Erroneous! Asteriktos posted his picture in the "What does everyone look like?" thread, and he is definitely a Homo Sapien.
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« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2012, 06:19:55 PM »

Well I'd make a horrible eastern religious ascetic because there is no way that I am ever giving up meat. I love cows; they taste pretty good over a grill with seasoning and sometimes BBQ sauce depending on the mood.
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« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2012, 06:20:12 PM »

If loving pork is wrong, I don't wanna be right!

You love pigs huh. Well as the saying goes, "You are what you eat."

LOL. What a self-righteous ass.
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« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2012, 06:20:36 PM »

Acts 10:13

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)



13And there came a voice to him: Arise, Peter; kill and eat.

Christians are not trapped by the old law anymore. If you don't want to eat pork, no one will force you to, but Christians are neither Talmudic Jews, nor Muslims. Christ set us free.
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« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2012, 06:21:22 PM »

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« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2012, 06:21:41 PM »

I do not know about the rest of you all, but I feel like some ribs right now. Shaslik too Smiley
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« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2012, 06:24:02 PM »

Acts 10:13

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)



13And there came a voice to him: Arise, Peter; kill and eat.

Christians are not trapped by the old law anymore. If you don't want to eat pork, no one will force you to, but Christians are neither Talmudic Jews, nor Muslims. Christ set us free.

The Acts of the Apostles were written by Luke who was the personal secretary of Saul of Tarsus. In reality, its all mostly about Saul and not the other Apostles. I do not trust what that book says about the Holy Rock Simon bar Jonas.
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« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2012, 06:24:14 PM »

Unbelievable! They roll around in their own feces. One of the most evil animals on the planet. Used by Satanists in their worship.

Do you and others roll around in the mud when your Rev. Day drives up in his Rolls-Royce?
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« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2012, 06:25:03 PM »

If loving pork is wrong, I don't wanna be right!

You love pigs huh. Well as the saying goes, "You are what you eat."

LOL. What a self-righteous ass.

Only the heathens cuss with filthy language and eat filthy flesh.
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« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2012, 06:25:32 PM »

Acts 10:13

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)



13And there came a voice to him: Arise, Peter; kill and eat.

Christians are not trapped by the old law anymore. If you don't want to eat pork, no one will force you to, but Christians are neither Talmudic Jews, nor Muslims. Christ set us free.

The Acts of the Apostles were written by Luke who was the personal secretary of Saul of Tarsus. In reality, its all mostly about Saul and not the other Apostles. I do not trust what that book says about the Holy Rock Simon bar Jonas.

Then welcome to heresy. You want to be outside with a wacky cult, you'll be outside.
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« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2012, 06:25:57 PM »

Unbelievable! They roll around in their own feces. One of the most evil animals on the planet. Used by Satanists in their worship.

Do you and others roll around in the mud when your Rev. Day drives up in his Rolls-Royce?

Who is that? I am not aware of any reverends after the great apostasy occured.
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« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2012, 06:26:30 PM »

The Acts of the Apostles were written by Luke who was the personal secretary of Saul of Tarsus. In reality, its all mostly about Saul and not the other Apostles. I do not trust what that book says about the Holy Rock Simon bar Jonas.

Now you sound like one of those Protestants who only quote the Pauline epistles, usually Romans, but ignore everything else from the other apostles and think that the epistle of St. James is bogus and stuff etc.
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« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2012, 06:27:17 PM »

If loving pork is wrong, I don't wanna be right!

You love pigs huh. Well as the saying goes, "You are what you eat."

LOL. What a self-righteous ass.

Only the heathens cuss with filthy language and eat filthy flesh.

Om nom nom. Filthy flesh. Filthy flesh! I'll meet you below.
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« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2012, 06:28:16 PM »

Unbelievable! They roll around in their own feces. One of the most evil animals on the planet. Used by Satanists in their worship.

Do you and others roll around in the mud when your Rev. Day drives up in his Rolls-Royce?

Who is that? I am not aware of any reverends after the great apostasy occured.

The leader of your cult. He's on the website we found. How do you get around the fact that none of his claims are accepted by anyone else outside the circle?
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« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2012, 06:29:10 PM »

The Acts of the Apostles were written by Luke who was the personal secretary of Saul of Tarsus. In reality, its all mostly about Saul and not the other Apostles. I do not trust what that book says about the Holy Rock Simon bar Jonas.

The the post-resurrection fishing story was in the Gospel of John. Fish count as flesh, don't they?* What exactly are your criteria for picking and choosing which Biblical books to consult?  police
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« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2012, 06:30:33 PM »

Didn't Jesus and His disciples eat Passover lamb? Which, is actually meat. Unless of course you are Greek.
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« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2012, 06:33:49 PM »

Didn't Jesus and His disciples eat Passover lamb? Which, is actually meat. Unless of course you are Greek.

It was Tofurkey.

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« Reply #30 on: May 02, 2012, 06:34:30 PM »

Unbelievable! They roll around in their own feces. One of the most evil animals on the planet. Used by Satanists in their worship.

Do you and others roll around in the mud when your Rev. Day drives up in his Rolls-Royce?

Who is that? I am not aware of any reverends after the great apostasy occured.

OK, do you command your followers to roll around in the mud like pigs when you show up in your Rolls-Royce since you have discredited any other Essene Reverends post your great apostasy?

I see why you left ROCOR and became a leader among the Essene based groups; you prefer to be your own Priest and pontificate.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 06:55:05 PM by SolEX01 » Logged
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« Reply #31 on: May 02, 2012, 06:37:14 PM »

Unbelievable! They roll around in their own feces. One of the most evil animals on the planet. Used by Satanists in their worship.

Do you and others roll around in the mud when your Rev. Day drives up in his Rolls-Royce?

Who is that? I am not aware of any reverends after the great apostasy occured.

The leader of your cult. He's on the website we found. How do you get around the fact that none of his claims are accepted by anyone else outside the circle?

Lol wow. What cult is this? Can you link me to the website please? I would like to join them...
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« Reply #32 on: May 02, 2012, 06:38:31 PM »

Unbelievable! They roll around in their own feces. One of the most evil animals on the planet. Used by Satanists in their worship.

Do you and others roll around in the mud when your Rev. Day drives up in his Rolls-Royce?

Who is that? I am not aware of any reverends after the great apostasy occured.

The leader of your cult. He's on the website we found. How do you get around the fact that none of his claims are accepted by anyone else outside the circle?

Lol wow. What cult is this? Can you link me to the website please? I would like to join them...

You already did. How long is this going to be funny? Even bad comedians know to change riffs once in a while.
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« Reply #33 on: May 02, 2012, 06:41:23 PM »

If this is the case, then why do we even bother eating at all? Plants are life too! Who says that fauna is more important than flora? Let's just starve ourselves of anything so that the flora can flourish. But wait, the flora need photosynthesis and chemical energy to survive! Who says that flora is more important than microscopic particles from the sun and chemicals? The plants should not feed either! Let's all die!
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« Reply #34 on: May 02, 2012, 06:46:18 PM »

If loving pork is wrong, I don't wanna be right!

You love pigs huh. Well as the saying goes, "You are what you eat."

I love alligator...  Grin

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« Reply #35 on: May 02, 2012, 08:23:20 PM »

Deus non alligatur.

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« Reply #36 on: May 02, 2012, 08:24:32 PM »

It is worth noting that the Lord has never given up on His creation. He sent Jesus, after all.
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« Reply #37 on: May 02, 2012, 08:25:48 PM »

If this is the case, then why do we even bother eating at all? Plants are life too! Who says that fauna is more important than flora? Let's just starve ourselves of anything so that the flora can flourish. But wait, the flora need photosynthesis and chemical energy to survive! Who says that flora is more important than microscopic particles from the sun and chemicals? The plants should not feed either! Let's all die!
Plants love to eat meat

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« Reply #38 on: May 02, 2012, 08:27:11 PM »

pig,

Unbelievable! They roll around in their own feces. One of the most evil animals on the planet. Used by Satanists in their worship.

At least you can wash them. Not like eating pidgeon, eagle, vulture, buzzard, or other birds that will eat garbage and carrion.  Talk about tasting like what you eat!
MMMM Pork. You know in the Old Law, the Jews were forbidden from eating pork. Now the Lord has declared it clean. I have always said that God became man that man might be allowed to eat carne adovada. Smiley

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« Reply #39 on: May 02, 2012, 08:34:12 PM »

Its not just humans. Look at all the species murdering and eating each other. From an enlightened perspective, this is absolutely crazy and totally shocking. It is not the divine order. The prophets said that one day in the new heavens and new earth the sheep will lay down with the wolf peacefully. That is how they are supposed to be. The truth is that all predators and carnivores are intrinsically evil. Vegetarianism is taught by all the highest spiritual traditions: Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism, Essenes, Nazarenes, Christian monasticism. etc. Please, stop eating flesh!

hmm.. was the above plea to the other species or to humans?

if it is for all of us both humans and the animals, you seem to answer your own question... that one day in the new heaven and new earth.....

so perhaps we can wait for that.... in the mean time... the Messiah has taught that what defiles man is what comes out of his mouth out of the fullness of his heart, not what goes into the mouth. perhaps it might be a good idea if we can meditate on what he meant, and avoid pride and its broods.
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« Reply #40 on: May 02, 2012, 08:36:22 PM »

I have always said that God became man that man might be allowed to eat carne adovada. Smiley

Perhaps, but not on Wednesdays and Fridays!  Angry

The troll has triumphed and caused me to look at my meatless meal with great disdain.
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« Reply #41 on: May 02, 2012, 08:40:12 PM »

You want to talk evil planets, there's Mars. The bad guys in the movies were always Martians.
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« Reply #42 on: May 02, 2012, 08:45:04 PM »

If this is the case, then why do we even bother eating at all? Plants are life too! Who says that fauna is more important than flora? Let's just starve ourselves of anything so that the flora can flourish. But wait, the flora need photosynthesis and chemical energy to survive! Who says that flora is more important than microscopic particles from the sun and chemicals? The plants should not feed either! Let's all die!
Plants love to eat meat



awesome!!!
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« Reply #43 on: May 02, 2012, 08:59:18 PM »

I don't know about you but I am warming up to amartin. He is so off the wall that he is amusing. Thus, he is contributing to our mental and physical health. Thank you, amartin. Salut!
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« Reply #44 on: May 02, 2012, 09:12:06 PM »

I don't know about you but I am warming up to amartin. He is so off the wall that he is amusing. Thus, he is contributing to our mental and physical health. Thank you, amartin. Salut!

Thanks.
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« Reply #45 on: May 02, 2012, 09:13:05 PM »

Amartin, if you are an 'Original Monotheist,' do you worship Ra?

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« Reply #46 on: May 02, 2012, 10:08:24 PM »

If loving pork is wrong, I don't wanna be right!

You love pigs huh. Well as the saying goes, "You are what you eat."

LOL. What a self-righteous ass.

Only the heathens cuss with filthy language and eat filthy flesh.
But damn if pork chops aren't delicious.
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« Reply #47 on: May 02, 2012, 10:42:54 PM »

This thread has turned into sheer heathenism.
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« Reply #48 on: May 02, 2012, 10:46:16 PM »

And to think: this is one of the better parts of the internet!
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« Reply #49 on: May 02, 2012, 10:47:29 PM »

And to think: this is one of the better parts of the internet!

You mean less evil. Or is that google?
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« Reply #50 on: May 02, 2012, 10:54:19 PM »

And to think: this is one of the better parts of the internet!

Yes, it is very sad.
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« Reply #51 on: May 03, 2012, 01:11:56 AM »

I have always said that God became man that man might be allowed to eat carne adovada. Smiley

Perhaps, but not on Wednesdays and Fridays!  Angry

The troll has triumphed and caused me to look at my meatless meal with great disdain.

Papist is a Catholic; he can eat pork during Lent.
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« Reply #52 on: May 03, 2012, 01:51:39 AM »

I love meat so much that I wish I had two stomachs so that I could eat twice as much meat, leading to the death of twice as many tasty animals Smiley
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« Reply #53 on: May 03, 2012, 02:16:25 AM »

amartin, please read this.

http://fatherstephen.wordpress.com/2012/05/02/all-dogs-go-to-heaven/
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« Reply #54 on: May 03, 2012, 10:29:10 AM »

pig,

Unbelievable! They roll around in their own feces.

Have you ever seen a pig?

Pigs are, as most mammals, very clean animals. They take care of their appearance and hygiene. These are humans who force them to roll in their feces. If pigs have much free space they don't do it.

They are very intelligent animals, some studies say they are more intelligent than dogs.
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« Reply #55 on: May 03, 2012, 11:40:39 AM »


They are very intelligent animals, some studies say they are more intelligent than dogs.


Then why would you kill them? That is murder...
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« Reply #56 on: May 03, 2012, 11:42:55 AM »


They are very intelligent animals, some studies say they are more intelligent than dogs.


Then why would you kill them? That is murder...

Kill a pig and you're a murderer; kill many pigs and you're a farmer; kill them all and cook them and you're a god.

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« Reply #57 on: May 03, 2012, 11:44:34 AM »


They are very intelligent animals, some studies say they are more intelligent than dogs.


Then why would you kill them? That is murder...

To gain their power, duh. Don't you know anything?
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« Reply #58 on: May 03, 2012, 11:59:30 AM »


They are very intelligent animals, some studies say they are more intelligent than dogs.


Then why would you kill them? That is murder...
Murder is the killing of a person. Dogs aren't persons.
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« Reply #59 on: May 03, 2012, 12:09:24 PM »


They are very intelligent animals, some studies say they are more intelligent than dogs.


Then why would you kill them? That is murder...

For pork.
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« Reply #60 on: May 03, 2012, 05:55:17 PM »


They are very intelligent animals, some studies say they are more intelligent than dogs.


Then why would you kill them? That is murder...
Murder is the killing of a person. Dogs aren't persons.
What is a "person"?
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« Reply #61 on: May 03, 2012, 05:57:39 PM »

That was an interesting read. Smiley
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« Reply #62 on: May 03, 2012, 06:07:46 PM »


They are very intelligent animals, some studies say they are more intelligent than dogs.


Then why would you kill them? That is murder...
Murder is the killing of a person. Dogs aren't persons.
What is a "person"?
A being with a rational nature.
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« Reply #63 on: May 03, 2012, 06:14:21 PM »


They are very intelligent animals, some studies say they are more intelligent than dogs.


Then why would you kill them? That is murder...
Murder is the killing of a person. Dogs aren't persons.
What is a "person"?
A being with a rational nature.

Does that include the mentally disabled?
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« Reply #64 on: May 03, 2012, 06:15:41 PM »


They are very intelligent animals, some studies say they are more intelligent than dogs.


Then why would you kill them? That is murder...
Murder is the killing of a person. Dogs aren't persons.
What is a "person"?
A being with a rational nature.
No.
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« Reply #65 on: May 03, 2012, 06:18:27 PM »


They are very intelligent animals, some studies say they are more intelligent than dogs.


Then why would you kill them? That is murder...
Murder is the killing of a person. Dogs aren't persons.
What is a "person"?
A being with a rational nature.
No.
Yes.
BTW, You remind me of my teenage students. "NOOOOOOO. NOOOOOOO. NOOOOOO." You make me laugh Little Izzy.
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« Reply #66 on: May 03, 2012, 06:19:12 PM »


They are very intelligent animals, some studies say they are more intelligent than dogs.


Then why would you kill them? That is murder...
Murder is the killing of a person. Dogs aren't persons.
What is a "person"?
A being with a rational nature.

Does that include the mentally disabled?
Of course. They have a rational nature. They instantiate a rational nature. They just are prevented from actualizing that power. Though potential to do so is there. So yes, they are persons.
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« Reply #67 on: May 03, 2012, 06:37:54 PM »


They are very intelligent animals, some studies say they are more intelligent than dogs.


Then why would you kill them? That is murder...
Murder is the killing of a person. Dogs aren't persons.
What is a "person"?
A being with a rational nature.
No.
Yes.
BTW, You remind me of my teenage students. "NOOOOOOO. NOOOOOOO. NOOOOOO." You make me laugh Little Izzy.
Who?

A person is an individual human being.
http://jbburnett.com/resources/lossky/lossky-person.pdf
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?rlz=1T4TSHB_enUS238US238&q=cache:gYr9CBZZuIMJ:http://jbburnett.com/resources/lossky/lossky-person.pdf%2BLossky%2BPerson&gs_upl=0l0l1l18621760lllllllllll0&hl=en&ct=clnk

http://jbburnett.com/resources/lossky/lossky-person.pdf
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« Reply #68 on: May 03, 2012, 06:42:52 PM »

NOOOOO NOOOO NOOOOOO. Wink Kidding.

Little Izzy, what is an individual human being? Answer: A rational animal.
But I would like to add that there are persons that are not human, so your definition is not all encompassing. Angels are persons, but not human. Thus, "a being with a rational nature" is a better definition of person.

Enter little Izzy: "NOOOOO. NOOOOO. NOOOOO. Map. Map. Map. Map"
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« Reply #69 on: May 03, 2012, 07:02:13 PM »

I don't understand all this emphasis on rationality to define personhood. Maybe there's some special RC-only definition of it that is being used here (the RCC tends to have its own way of talking that is inscrutable to those not with it), but it strikes me that this placing the rational capacity of man on some sort of pedestal whereby it forms the totality of what could described as "human" has dangerous or at least disconcerting consequences. After all, isn't it by reference to some imagined "age of reason" (I think it's about 7 or 8 years old, right?) that they deny the life-giving body and blood of our Savior Jesus Christ to their own children? As though there is some magic switch that is flipped at 7 or 8...if that's the case, then where is the line between the "rational" animal and the irrational? I have certainly met more than my fair share of people who hold down jobs, publish in academic journals, and are generally successful in life and much, much older than 7 or 8, and yet seem to me to be completely irrational in many ways. Can I kill them because they may not in fact be people according to the almighty "rational being" standard?
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« Reply #70 on: May 03, 2012, 07:15:47 PM »

I don't understand all this emphasis on rationality to define personhood. Maybe there's some special RC-only definition of it that is being used here (the RCC tends to have its own way of talking that is inscrutable to those not with it), but it strikes me that this placing the rational capacity of man on some sort of pedestal whereby it forms the totality of what could described as "human" has dangerous or at least disconcerting consequences. After all, isn't it by reference to some imagined "age of reason" (I think it's about 7 or 8 years old, right?) that they deny the life-giving body and blood of our Savior Jesus Christ to their own children? As though there is some magic switch that is flipped at 7 or 8...if that's the case, then where is the line between the "rational" animal and the irrational? I have certainly met more than my fair share of people who hold down jobs, publish in academic journals, and are generally successful in life and much, much older than 7 or 8, and yet seem to me to be completely irrational in many ways. Can I kill them because they may not in fact be people according to the almighty "rational being" standard?
No connection there. We recognize all human beings as persons, becuase they all have the potential for reason, even if they cannot at a given moment actualize that potential. Thus, children, injured persons, persons with mental diseases, etc. are all still persons.
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« Reply #71 on: May 03, 2012, 07:23:12 PM »

If that is the case then why are you so against abortion, seeing that a fetus is not capable of rationality at all and their rational nature has not yet been developed? I find your definition of a person as being slightly disturbing, Papist.
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« Reply #72 on: May 03, 2012, 07:24:44 PM »

I don't know, Papist...that makes sense (or I could you could say, it's rational), but I do not think I like the implications. It seems to me that the only essential of being a person is having been born a human being, and not a trilobite or a salamander or something else. Go beyond that and you get into arguments of consciousness and reasoning capacities, which of course vary widely not only from person to person, but also within a single person's lifetime, and are subject to all kinds of external and internal influences from a person's cultural background, disposition, etc.
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« Reply #73 on: May 03, 2012, 07:27:34 PM »

If that is the case then why are you so against abortion, seeing that a fetus is not capable of rationality at all and their rational nature has not yet been developed? I find your definition of a person as being slightly disturbing, Papist.

James, note that Papist included the phrase "potential for reason". I think it is fair to assume that a fetus, as it will be one day a baby if it is not aborted before it has that chance, would at least then be thought of as having the "potential for reason" at some point in the future, and hence the murder of the fetus is a deprivation of that potential, and a deprivation of its essential "personhood". (I hope I've understood your correctly, Papist; if not, please explain what you meant.)
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« Reply #74 on: May 03, 2012, 07:28:19 PM »

I don't know, Papist...that makes sense (or I could you could say, it's rational), but I do not think I like the implications. It seems to me that the only essential of being a person is having been born a human being, and not a trilobite or a salamander or something else. Go beyond that and you get into arguments of consciousness and reasoning capacities, which of course vary widely not only from person to person, but also within a single person's lifetime, and are subject to all kinds of external and internal influences from a person's cultural background, disposition, etc.

First, I don't agree with your assessment above, and I'm not saying that to be an a--. We know that normal human person should be able to reason in a way an animal cannot. Some are better at this than others. Some are worse. All this means is that some human beings more perfectly instantiate this than others. That does not mean one is superior to another, because the cut off line is potential to reason. That is it.
Second, if you decide that the definition of a person is "human being" then you exclude Angels.
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« Reply #75 on: May 03, 2012, 07:29:28 PM »

If that is the case then why are you so against abortion, seeing that a fetus is not capable of rationality at all and their rational nature has not yet been developed? I find your definition of a person as being slightly disturbing, Papist.

James, note that Papist included the phrase "potential for reason". I think it is fair to assume that a fetus, as it will be one day a baby if it is not aborted before it has that chance, would at least then be thought of as having the "potential for reason" at some point in the future, and hence the murder of the fetus is a deprivation of that potential, and a deprivation of its essential "personhood". (I hope I've understood your correctly, Papist; if not, please explain what you meant.)
Well, yes, a person's essential personhood is rooted in their potential for reason. If a being has the natural potential for reason, then it is a person.
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« Reply #76 on: May 03, 2012, 07:33:42 PM »

hold on
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« Reply #77 on: May 03, 2012, 07:34:56 PM »

I don't understand all this emphasis on rationality to define personhood. Maybe there's some special RC-only definition of it that is being used here (the RCC tends to have its own way of talking that is inscrutable to those not with it), but it strikes me that this placing the rational capacity of man on some sort of pedestal whereby it forms the totality of what could described as "human"
Yes, the reductionism and determinism of the Scholastics have given us such lovely things as separation of chrismation from baptism and its redefinition into "confirmation," which in turn gave us the anabaptists and "believers baptism," along with withholding the eucharist from the young and mentally infirm.  It also contributed to its mandated celibacy and all the problems that came with that: the loss of reason was seen as very dangerous, even for a moment (and those who pursued this line of "reasoning" shuddered at the thought of lovemaking lasting any longer than the moment it took to deposit semen in its "natural and rational" end).
It's part of the whole root rot of natural law taken over from the Stoicism of the Roman, particularly Latin, pagan aristocracy.

has dangerous or at least disconcerting consequences. After all, isn't it by reference to some imagined "age of reason" (I think it's about 7 or 8 years old, right?) that they deny the life-giving body and blood of our Savior Jesus Christ to their own children? As though there is some magic switch that is flipped at 7 or 8...if that's the case, then where is the line between the "rational" animal and the irrational? I have certainly met more than my fair share of people who hold down jobs, publish in academic journals, and are generally successful in life and much, much older than 7 or 8, and yet seem to me to be completely irrational in many ways. Can I kill them because they may not in fact be people according to the almighty "rational being" standard?
papist will take out his Vatican approved hair splinter to deflect his presuppositions from reaching their rational conclusion.
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« Reply #78 on: May 03, 2012, 07:37:24 PM »

If that is the case then why are you so against abortion, seeing that a fetus is not capable of rationality at all and their rational nature has not yet been developed? I find your definition of a person as being slightly disturbing, Papist.

James, note that Papist included the phrase "potential for reason". I think it is fair to assume that a fetus, as it will be one day a baby if it is not aborted before it has that chance, would at least then be thought of as having the "potential for reason" at some point in the future, and hence the murder of the fetus is a deprivation of that potential, and a deprivation of its essential "personhood". (I hope I've understood your correctly, Papist; if not, please explain what you meant.)
Well, yes, a person's essential personhood is rooted in their potential for reason. If a being has the natural potential for reason, then it is a person.
No, personhood is rooted in communion, which is why angels have a defective personhood (each angel is a universe unto itself), and God has perfect personhood, or rather Personhood.
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« Reply #79 on: May 03, 2012, 07:37:35 PM »

What's this thread about again?
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« Reply #80 on: May 03, 2012, 07:40:08 PM »

I don't understand all this emphasis on rationality to define personhood. Maybe there's some special RC-only definition of it that is being used here (the RCC tends to have its own way of talking that is inscrutable to those not with it), but it strikes me that this placing the rational capacity of man on some sort of pedestal whereby it forms the totality of what could described as "human"
Yes, the reductionism and determinism of the Scholastics have given us such lovely things as separation of chrismation from baptism and its redefinition into "confirmation," which in turn gave us the anabaptists and "believers baptism," along with withholding the eucharist from the young and mentally infirm.  It also contributed to its mandated celibacy and all the problems that came with that: the loss of reason was seen as very dangerous, even for a moment (and those who pursued this line of "reasoning" shuddered at the thought of lovemaking lasting any longer than the moment it took to deposit semen in its "natural and rational" end).
It's part of the whole root rot of natural law taken over from the Stoicism of the Roman, particularly Latin, pagan aristocracy.

has dangerous or at least disconcerting consequences. After all, isn't it by reference to some imagined "age of reason" (I think it's about 7 or 8 years old, right?) that they deny the life-giving body and blood of our Savior Jesus Christ to their own children? As though there is some magic switch that is flipped at 7 or 8...if that's the case, then where is the line between the "rational" animal and the irrational? I have certainly met more than my fair share of people who hold down jobs, publish in academic journals, and are generally successful in life and much, much older than 7 or 8, and yet seem to me to be completely irrational in many ways. Can I kill them because they may not in fact be people according to the almighty "rational being" standard?
papist will take out his Vatican approved hair splinter to deflect his presuppositions from reaching their rational conclusion.
Again, there is no connection here, as we do not say that the ability to reason makes one a person. We say that the natural potential for reason makes one a person. Izzy, are you not reading the thread?
And as for reductionism, nope, we are not reductistic. You are, Izzy. You are the existentialist, who denies that there is such a thing as human nature. This reduces man to nothing more than a material object. Nice try though. Oh, and for your sake, here is a map:
http://www.bookwormlibrary.us/graphics/illustrations_notes/maps/oz_map_mashup_large.jpg
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« Reply #81 on: May 03, 2012, 07:40:46 PM »

What's this thread about again?
This evil planet. Oh, and for Izzy it's about how evil Catholics and Scholastics are.  Grin
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« Reply #82 on: May 03, 2012, 07:42:23 PM »

Well, yes, a person's essential personhood is rooted in their potential for reason. If a being has the natural potential for reason, then it is a person.

Well what if the fetus is going to be born with a mental disorder? Would it still have the potential for reason? What was your view on the mentally infirm again?
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« Reply #83 on: May 03, 2012, 07:44:03 PM »

Well, yes, a person's essential personhood is rooted in their potential for reason. If a being has the natural potential for reason, then it is a person.

Well what if the fetus is going to be born with a mental disorder? Would it still have the potential for reason? What was your view on the mentally infirm again?
Yes, in my view the potential for reason is there, but defect or injury may be prohibiting the person from actualizing that potential. Yet, the potential remains, and consequently, the dignity of that person remains.
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« Reply #84 on: May 03, 2012, 07:44:16 PM »

No connection there. We recognize all human beings as persons, becuase they all have the potential for reason, even if they cannot at a given moment actualize that potential. Thus, children, injured persons, persons with mental diseases, etc. are all still persons.
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« Reply #85 on: May 03, 2012, 07:45:26 PM »

This thread is an evil planet.
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« Reply #86 on: May 03, 2012, 07:46:47 PM »

This thread is an evil planet.
This is an evil thred.
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« Reply #87 on: May 03, 2012, 07:50:15 PM »

Yes, in my view the potential for reason is there, but defect or injury may be prohibiting the person from actualizing that potential. Yet, the potential remains, and consequently, the dignity of that person remains.

I have a bit of trouble understanding how the potential can still be there, it seems like you are separating the potential from the infirmity, although the infirmity is precisely attacking the potential. How can the potential still exist? It seems downright contradictory or at least confusing to me. Also, just for kicks. Evolution leads to certain species becoming more and more intelligent, and it is very possible that the great apes will someday exhibit intelligence on the level of humans. Would you say that we should not murder great apes since technically they have the potential to become like humans are because of evolution?
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« Reply #88 on: May 03, 2012, 07:57:55 PM »


http://books.google.com/books?id=taKkaFzv8BsC&pg=PA4&lpg=PA4&dq=Mr.+Bill+lobotomy&source=bl&ots=0vRTW5Maw_&sig=WUutYhVqTI_p1fzKdny3QPOGObY&hl=en#v=onepage&q=Mr.%20Bill%20lobotomy&f=false
Into the Heart of the Mind: An American Quest for Artificial Intelligence

Little Izzy,

who?
what is an individual human being? Answer: A rational animal.

wrong answer.
But I would like to add that there are persons that are not human, so your definition is not all encompassing. Angels are persons, but not human. Thus, "a being with a rational nature" is a better definition of person.

Enter little Izzy
who?
"NOOOOO. NOOOOO. NOOOOO.
Mr. Bill again?

Map. Map. Map. Map"

a fantasy map of a non-existent place.  No wonder you are lost amidst your fantasies about categories that have no objective existence.

Humans are beings with reason.  Not rational beings.  
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« Reply #89 on: May 03, 2012, 07:59:17 PM »

This thread is an evil planet.
This is an evil thred.
This is a misspelled word
thred
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« Reply #90 on: May 03, 2012, 08:18:56 PM »


http://books.google.com/books?id=taKkaFzv8BsC&pg=PA4&lpg=PA4&dq=Mr.+Bill+lobotomy&source=bl&ots=0vRTW5Maw_&sig=WUutYhVqTI_p1fzKdny3QPOGObY&hl=en#v=onepage&q=Mr.%20Bill%20lobotomy&f=false
Into the Heart of the Mind: An American Quest for Artificial Intelligence

Little Izzy,

who?

Maybe he means this guy?

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« Reply #91 on: May 03, 2012, 08:21:24 PM »

With all due respect to Isa's children, I thought getting a globe for Christmas was one of the best things I ever got. I played with it for a long time, memorizing all the different countries, charting out voyages and wondering what dot of an island I wanted to live in.
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« Reply #92 on: May 03, 2012, 08:24:47 PM »

I don't understand all this emphasis on rationality to define personhood. Maybe there's some special RC-only definition of it that is being used here (the RCC tends to have its own way of talking that is inscrutable to those not with it), but it strikes me that this placing the rational capacity of man on some sort of pedestal whereby it forms the totality of what could described as "human"
Yes, the reductionism and determinism of the Scholastics have given us such lovely things as separation of chrismation from baptism and its redefinition into "confirmation," which in turn gave us the anabaptists and "believers baptism," along with withholding the eucharist from the young and mentally infirm.  It also contributed to its mandated celibacy and all the problems that came with that: the loss of reason was seen as very dangerous, even for a moment (and those who pursued this line of "reasoning" shuddered at the thought of lovemaking lasting any longer than the moment it took to deposit semen in its "natural and rational" end).
It's part of the whole root rot of natural law taken over from the Stoicism of the Roman, particularly Latin, pagan aristocracy.

has dangerous or at least disconcerting consequences. After all, isn't it by reference to some imagined "age of reason" (I think it's about 7 or 8 years old, right?) that they deny the life-giving body and blood of our Savior Jesus Christ to their own children? As though there is some magic switch that is flipped at 7 or 8...if that's the case, then where is the line between the "rational" animal and the irrational? I have certainly met more than my fair share of people who hold down jobs, publish in academic journals, and are generally successful in life and much, much older than 7 or 8, and yet seem to me to be completely irrational in many ways. Can I kill them because they may not in fact be people according to the almighty "rational being" standard?
papist will take out his Vatican approved hair splinter to deflect his presuppositions from reaching their rational conclusion.
Again, there is no connection here, as we do not say that the ability to reason makes one a person. We say that the natural potential for reason makes one a person.


So I guess we can't trash the old lab tops, given the natural potential for reason in artificial intelligence makes them a person.

Izzy
who?
are you not reading the thread?
Yep.  And unlike some Roll Eyes, I am understanding it as well.
And as for reductionism, nope, we are not reductistic. You are, Izzy.
who?
You are the existentialist, who denies that there is such a thing as human nature.

you are too busy imagining what something can be rather than paying attention to what it is that you don't know what existentialism is nor reductionism.  But then a fish doesn't know it is wet.
This reduces man to nothing more than a material object.
Like I said, you don't have a clue.
If you're recommending it, I know where it goes:
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« Reply #93 on: May 03, 2012, 08:26:12 PM »

With all due respect to Isa's children, I thought getting a globe for Christmas was one of the best things I ever got. I played with it for a long time, memorizing all the different countries, charting out voyages and wondering what dot of an island I wanted to live in.
My brother requested one for Christmas, so he could be a man of the world.
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« Reply #94 on: May 03, 2012, 08:31:04 PM »

Every family should have a Bible, a dictionary, and a globe. Everything else is at best a luxury. Smiley
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« Reply #95 on: May 03, 2012, 08:32:42 PM »

Yes, in my view the potential for reason is there, but defect or injury may be prohibiting the person from actualizing that potential. Yet, the potential remains, and consequently, the dignity of that person remains.

I have a bit of trouble understanding how the potential can still be there, it seems like you are separating the potential from the infirmity, although the infirmity is precisely attacking the potential. How can the potential still exist? It seems downright contradictory or at least confusing to me. Also, just for kicks. Evolution leads to certain species becoming more and more intelligent, and it is very possible that the great apes will someday exhibit intelligence on the level of humans. Would you say that we should not murder great apes since technically they have the potential to become like humans are because of evolution?
Don't forget HAL

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_9000

Don't unplug your lab top.
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« Reply #96 on: May 03, 2012, 08:38:50 PM »

What's this thread about again?
This evil planet. Oh, and for Izzy

who?
it's about how evil Catholics and Scholastics are.  Grin
We Catholics aren't evil at all.

As for you Scholastics

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« Reply #97 on: May 03, 2012, 08:40:10 PM »

With all due respect to Isa's children, I thought getting a globe for Christmas was one of the best things I ever got. I played with it for a long time, memorizing all the different countries, charting out voyages and wondering what dot of an island I wanted to live in.
I knew I liked you.
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« Reply #98 on: May 03, 2012, 08:42:28 PM »

Alas, the scholastic debates continue ad aburdum. The focus should be on spirituality. You will never be able to tie down what 'person' is because personality is a mystery. That is why Gautama Buddha refused to answer on the question. Such philosophizing is profitless...
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« Reply #99 on: May 03, 2012, 08:44:25 PM »

With all due respect to Isa's children, I thought getting a globe for Christmas was one of the best things I ever got. I played with it for a long time, memorizing all the different countries, charting out voyages and wondering what dot of an island I wanted to live in.
I knew I liked you.

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« Reply #100 on: May 03, 2012, 08:50:16 PM »

With all due respect to Isa's children, I thought getting a globe for Christmas was one of the best things I ever got. I played with it for a long time, memorizing all the different countries, charting out voyages and wondering what dot of an island I wanted to live in.
My brother requested one for Christmas, so he could be a man of the world.
All I needed to do was shrug.
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« Reply #101 on: May 03, 2012, 08:54:48 PM »

Wow, amartin. That's deep, maaaaaaaaaaaan. Groovy.

Isa...all of Papist's attempts to give you a nickname has got me wondering: Are there diminutive versions of names in Arabic? I have known Mohameds who go by "Mo", but I mean more like how in Russian Dimitry becomes "Dimka", Alexander "Sasha" (I never got an explanation for that one in my 6-7 years of Russian study...), Vladimir "Vova", etc.

Just going from the names of people I know from church, it seems unlikely. There would of course be theological problems in calling Nabil "Nabi" or Maria "Mari"...

(Eh, why not...this thread can't get more off topic, right?)

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« Reply #102 on: May 03, 2012, 08:55:57 PM »

Wow, amartin. That's deep, maaaaaaaaaaaan. Groovy.

Isa...all of Papist's attempts to give you a nickname has got me wondering: Are there diminutive versions of names in Arabic? I have known Mohameds who go by "Mo", but I mean more like how in Russian Dimitry becomes "Dimka", Alexander "Sasha" (I never got an explanation for that one in my 6-7 years of Russian study...), Vladimir "Vova", etc.

Just going from the names of people I know from church, it seems unlikely. There would of course be theological problems in calling Nabil "Nabi" or Maria "Mari"...

(Eh, why not...this thread can't get more off topic, right?)




It's less imaginative than you can't imagine.
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« Reply #103 on: May 03, 2012, 08:56:58 PM »

I have no idea what that means, Orthonorm. Sorry.
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« Reply #104 on: May 03, 2012, 08:57:33 PM »

I have no idea what that means, Orthonorm. Sorry.

lol
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« Reply #105 on: May 03, 2012, 09:33:34 PM »

Wow, amartin. That's deep, maaaaaaaaaaaan. Groovy.

Isa...all of Papist's attempts to give you a nickname has got me wondering: Are there diminutive versions of names in Arabic? I have known Mohameds who go by "Mo", but I mean more like how in Russian Dimitry becomes "Dimka", Alexander "Sasha" (I never got an explanation for that one in my 6-7 years of Russian study...), Vladimir "Vova", etc.

Just going from the names of people I know from church, it seems unlikely. There would of course be theological problems in calling Nabil "Nabi" or Maria "Mari"...

(Eh, why not...this thread can't get more off topic, right?)


Many ways, as a matter of fact.

Soni, for instance, is the nickname for Athanasius.
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« Reply #106 on: May 03, 2012, 09:42:11 PM »

Alas, the scholastic debates continue ad aburdum. The focus should be on spirituality. You will never be able to tie down what 'person' is because personality is a mystery. That is why Gautama Buddha refused to answer on the question. Such philosophizing is profitless...
Siddhartha refused to answer because he did not have the answer.
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« Reply #107 on: May 03, 2012, 09:49:33 PM »

Wow, amartin. That's deep, maaaaaaaaaaaan. Groovy.

Isa...all of Papist's attempts to give you a nickname has got me wondering: Are there diminutive versions of names in Arabic? I have known Mohameds who go by "Mo", but I mean more like how in Russian Dimitry becomes "Dimka", Alexander "Sasha" (I never got an explanation for that one in my 6-7 years of Russian study...), Vladimir "Vova", etc.

Just going from the names of people I know from church, it seems unlikely. There would of course be theological problems in calling Nabil "Nabi" or Maria "Mari"...

(Eh, why not...this thread can't get more off topic, right?)


Many ways, as a matter of fact.

Soni, for instance, is the nickname for Athanasius.

Ah. Interesting and good to know. Thanks.

(I knew I'd get some actual information out of this thread!)
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« Reply #108 on: May 03, 2012, 09:50:58 PM »

Turducken breakfast of champions!


I have this theory.  If God didn't want us to eat animals, why did he make them taste so good?
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« Reply #109 on: May 04, 2012, 03:32:14 AM »

I don't understand all this emphasis on rationality to define personhood. Maybe there's some special RC-only definition of it that is being used here (the RCC tends to have its own way of talking that is inscrutable to those not with it), but it strikes me that this placing the rational capacity of man on some sort of pedestal whereby it forms the totality of what could described as "human" has dangerous or at least disconcerting consequences. After all, isn't it by reference to some imagined "age of reason" (I think it's about 7 or 8 years old, right?) that they deny the life-giving body and blood of our Savior Jesus Christ to their own children? As though there is some magic switch that is flipped at 7 or 8...if that's the case, then where is the line between the "rational" animal and the irrational? I have certainly met more than my fair share of people who hold down jobs, publish in academic journals, and are generally successful in life and much, much older than 7 or 8, and yet seem to me to be completely irrational in many ways. Can I kill them because they may not in fact be people according to the almighty "rational being" standard?
No connection there. We recognize all human beings as persons, becuase they all have the potential for reason, even if they cannot at a given moment actualize that potential. Thus, children, injured persons, persons with mental diseases, etc. are all still persons.

What is required for "reason" though?  It seems to me that many animals act with a great deal of reason, often in ways far superior to most humans.
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« Reply #110 on: May 07, 2012, 05:14:47 PM »

In honor of this thread, I'm making a pork tenderloin tagine (in a tagine, naturally) for dinner tonight. 

It's fusion night at my house Wink

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« Reply #111 on: May 07, 2012, 05:28:36 PM »

pig,

Unbelievable! They roll around in their own feces. One of the most evil animals on the planet. Used by Satanists in their worship.

And that's the pig's fault? Seriously, why not attack the butcher shops with your Mohammedan friends?
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« Reply #112 on: May 07, 2012, 05:30:32 PM »

Acts 10:13

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)



13And there came a voice to him: Arise, Peter; kill and eat.

Christians are not trapped by the old law anymore. If you don't want to eat pork, no one will force you to, but Christians are neither Talmudic Jews, nor Muslims. Christ set us free.

The Acts of the Apostles were written by Luke who was the personal secretary of Saul of Tarsus. In reality, its all mostly about Saul and not the other Apostles. I do not trust what that book says about the Holy Rock Simon bar Jonas.

You should wear a name tag saying, "Hi, I'm a heretic."
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« Reply #113 on: May 07, 2012, 05:32:21 PM »

Unbelievable! They roll around in their own feces. One of the most evil animals on the planet. Used by Satanists in their worship.

Do you and others roll around in the mud when your Rev. Day drives up in his Rolls-Royce?

Who is that? I am not aware of any reverends after the great apostasy occured.

The leader of your cult. He's on the website we found. How do you get around the fact that none of his claims are accepted by anyone else outside the circle?

Lol wow. What cult is this? Can you link me to the website please? I would like to join them...

You already did. How long is this going to be funny? Even bad comedians know to change riffs once in a while.

That's what separates the comedians from the trolls.
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« Reply #114 on: May 07, 2012, 05:34:39 PM »


They are very intelligent animals, some studies say they are more intelligent than dogs.


Then why would you kill them? That is murder...

Kill a pig and you're a murderer; kill many pigs and you're a farmer; kill them all and cook them and you're a god.



or just Southern.
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« Reply #115 on: May 07, 2012, 05:35:34 PM »


They are very intelligent animals, some studies say they are more intelligent than dogs.


Then why would you kill them? That is murder...
Murder is the killing of a person. Dogs aren't persons.

Whoa there, Papist. If we agree on something more than twice in a day, what will that do the space-time continuum?
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« Reply #116 on: May 07, 2012, 05:36:34 PM »


They are very intelligent animals, some studies say they are more intelligent than dogs.


Then why would you kill them? That is murder...
Murder is the killing of a person. Dogs aren't persons.
What is a "person"?
A being with a rational nature.

Does that include the mentally disabled?

Absolutely. Many mentally disabled persons are far more rational than the mentally-abled, from the real, spiritual point of view.
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« Reply #117 on: May 07, 2012, 05:39:05 PM »

What's this thread about again?

I'm pretty sure it's about how barbecue is a gift from God.
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« Reply #118 on: May 07, 2012, 05:40:48 PM »


Yet another evil consequence of scholasticism, misspelling.
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« Reply #119 on: May 07, 2012, 06:46:38 PM »


Yet another evil consequence of scholasticism, misspelling.
yeah, they misspell "filio."
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« Reply #120 on: May 07, 2012, 07:16:39 PM »

This is an evil filio? Eh...if you say so, Isa...
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« Reply #121 on: May 07, 2012, 08:09:14 PM »

Wow, amartin. That's deep, maaaaaaaaaaaan. Groovy.

Isa...all of Papist's attempts to give you a nickname has got me wondering: Are there diminutive versions of names in Arabic? I have known Mohameds who go by "Mo", but I mean more like how in Russian Dimitry becomes "Dimka", Alexander "Sasha" (I never got an explanation for that one in my 6-7 years of Russian study...), Vladimir "Vova", etc.

Just going from the names of people I know from church, it seems unlikely. There would of course be theological problems in calling Nabil "Nabi" or Maria "Mari"...

(Eh, why not...this thread can't get more off topic, right?)



Folks, I am locking this thread until further notice as there are couple of issues that I plan to discuss with the moderator team. Second Chance
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