Jnorm, instead of dismissing this as some Augustine conspiracy from the grace, how about just stick to explainations as you see them. What orthonorm is saying, me thinks, is that some people here may know even less of Augustine or Calvinism than they do of Eastern Fathers, so assuming that's the problem is a jump. BTW, Augustine =/= Calvinism.
The issue isn't privacy, but of the future. That is, if the future is still ours, then our decisions aren't decided and the future can be changed.
How is that a problem, if God knows our choice? If God knows our ultimate choices, there is no reason for Him to change our choices. Even our prayers could be useless. Our decisions have been seen and, thus, in a sense determined. He know who will choose His grace and who won't.
BUT, if God, when He' made us in His image', blessed us with open free will. Though He can see all the choices we will make, and knows what our current path is, He can still react with us to CHANGE that future. Otherwise, we are destined to Hell, and He already knows it.
It is Augustinian. For anyone who thinks that quote on quote """"knowing equals causation""" is talking about Saint Augustine in his latter days. And the whole Augustinian tradition after wards. Also, I never said CALVINISM = AUGUSTINIANISM. Read what I posted closely.
Calvinism does follow the Augustinian tradition on this issue, however, it takes it a few steps further.
Everything I said is true! It really is! Maybe you should read up on the issues first before trying to correct someone who obviously knows something about SAINT AUGUSTINIAN, CALVINISM, ARMINIANISM, OPEN THEISM, a huge chunk of the eastern fathers........etc.
I pointed out the mistake of "knowing equals causation". Now why do you think the Christian East didn't struggle with the issue of Free Will, Grace, and Predestination to the """"SAME DEGREE (I'm saying this for a reason for we did have some struggle with it)""" as the post Augustinian and post Augustinian christian west?
There is a reason for that, and so try and give me a benefit of doubt, that maybe, just maybe, I know what I'm talking about here.
Now just think to yourself for one second. If knowing doesn't = causation then what would this mean? What would this imply?
Wouldn't this solve the problem? I'll answer for you..........YES IT WOULD SOLVE THE ISSUE!
If you read the early fathers then you will know that they have alot to say about REWARDS and PUNISHMENTS based on our free will. YES GOD knows the choices we would make, but part of having free will means we will be either rewarded or punished for the choices we make.
You will also see that one of them says that God made Lucifer, but Lucifer made the devil/Satan by way of his free will. They actually have alot to say about the topic of free will, rewards and punishments, God's foreknowledge, Divine Providence, and Predestination.
The future can be changed from our perspective, but not from God's perspective for we already made the choice. We just don't know what that choice is yet.
Jesus knew that Peter would make the choice to deny Him 3 times. Peter rejected that idea. Why? Because he obviously didn't know what his future choice would be. But God knew, and He also knew that He would be restored as well as what kind of death he would die.
Our choices are seen, yes! Determined by God? No! Determined by us? YES! For they are our choices, God just watches what we do, no different from a grocery store video cam watching a thief stealing food.
Did the grocery store video cam determined the choice of the thief? NOPE! Who determined that choice? It was the thief!
We are self determinators, and we will be judged for everything we think, say, and do! We will either be rewarded or punished!
You sound as if you want God to always intervene whenever we make bad choices in life. Well, how will God ever reward or punish if He always must intervene?
What's the point of being judged for our thoughts, words, and deeds, if God must always intervene whenever we are about to do something bad?
The issue of free will fits perfectly with the reality of REWARDS & PUNISHMENTS, JUDGMENT.........etc.