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Author Topic: Anglican Ordinariates: Two Views  (Read 2834 times) Average Rating: 0
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Peter J
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« on: May 02, 2012, 08:45:41 AM »

I decided to look online to see if there's anything new w.r.t. the Anglican Ordinariates (of the Roman Communion). I found a couple things I think are interesting, especially when you contrast them.

The first is the rector of St. Mary of the Angels parish, talking about "a coup has been attempted by a small handful of dissidents who adamantly oppose St. Mary's joining the Ordinariate".

The second piece talks about a "tempest in a teapot" ...

Quote
When the Bishop of Rome issued Anglicanorum Coetibus it was said that 400,000 continuing Anglicans plus many more from the Church of England and the Anglican Communion would be rushing for the bridges of the Tiber. On Sunday, the Roman authorities held "ceremonies across the country" to receive Anglicans in Canada wanting to join the new Anglican Ordinariate of the Roman Catholic Church. Only around 100 confused Anglicans in all of Canada accepted the Roman bishop's "generous offer." Still, Rome is hoping for "dozens" more in upcoming weeks!
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« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2012, 12:10:06 PM »

Quote
ROME -- Pope Benedict XVI donated $250,000 to the Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham to help support its clergy and work.

The gift "is a clear sign of (the pope's) personal commitment to the work of Christian unity and the special place the ordinariate holds in his heart," said Archbishop Antonio Mennini, the Vatican nuncio to Great Britain.

The ordinariate made the announcement in a press statement May 1.

"The gift will help establish the ordinariate as a vibrant part of the Catholic Church in England and Wales," the statement said.
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« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2012, 12:19:33 PM »

"a clear sign of (the pope's) personal commitment to the work of Christian unity"

LOL.

Here's General Grant's personal commitment to the work of American unity.
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« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2012, 07:46:30 PM »

Yeah, and he became President, too.
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« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2012, 08:04:08 PM »

Yeah, and he became President, too.
not his finest hour.


but it followed up on his finest hour
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« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2012, 09:41:43 PM »

Quote
ROME -- Pope Benedict XVI donated $250,000 to the Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham to help support its clergy and work.

The gift "is a clear sign of (the pope's) personal commitment to the work of Christian unity and the special place the ordinariate holds in his heart," said Archbishop Antonio Mennini, the Vatican nuncio to Great Britain.

The ordinariate made the announcement in a press statement May 1.

"The gift will help establish the ordinariate as a vibrant part of the Catholic Church in England and Wales," the statement said.

"a clear sign of (the pope's) personal commitment to the work of Christian unity"

LOL.

Here's General Grant's personal commitment to the work of American unity.

Yes yes, ha ha, etc.

Seriously, it seems to me that that donation is small enough that it shouldn't raise too many eyebrows. (Excepting, of course, those with stuck-eyebrow syndrome.) If the Pope had donated $10 million to the ordinariate, I would be the first to say What the ruddy ell?
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 09:43:24 PM by Peter J » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2012, 12:01:02 PM »

Quote
ROME -- Pope Benedict XVI donated $250,000 to the Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham to help support its clergy and work.

The gift "is a clear sign of (the pope's) personal commitment to the work of Christian unity and the special place the ordinariate holds in his heart," said Archbishop Antonio Mennini, the Vatican nuncio to Great Britain.

The ordinariate made the announcement in a press statement May 1.

"The gift will help establish the ordinariate as a vibrant part of the Catholic Church in England and Wales," the statement said.

"a clear sign of (the pope's) personal commitment to the work of Christian unity"

LOL.

Here's General Grant's personal commitment to the work of American unity.

Yes yes, ha ha, etc.

Seriously, it seems to me that that donation is small enough that it shouldn't raise too many eyebrows. (Excepting, of course, those with stuck-eyebrow syndrome.) If the Pope had donated $10 million to the ordinariate, I would be the first to say What the ruddy ell?

Although the Anglican Ordinariate and the move of Anglicans back to the Catholic Church has been pretty much off my radar, I would agree, Peter, with both of your paragraphs above.

I would add, too, that while much of what the Pope does to foster unity amongst Christians probably goes relatively unnoticed, this obviously hasn't, and I think that's a good thing.  At least he can be seen to be doing something towards that end in contrast with many other Christians, both on this board and across the world.
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« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2012, 12:03:36 PM »

Yeah, and he became President, too.
not his finest hour.


but it followed up on his finest hour


Gee, and here I thought this thread was about the Anglican Ordinariate and Pope Benedict XVI.  Silly me--what *was* I thinking?  Grin

But, hey, at least the maps were pretty, although not as pretty as others we've seen.  Oh well....
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« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2012, 12:28:50 PM »

Yeah, and he became President, too.
not his finest hour.


but it followed up on his finest hour


Gee, and here I thought this thread was about the Anglican Ordinariate and Pope Benedict XVI.  Silly me--what *was* I thinking?  Grin

But, hey, at least the maps were pretty, although not as pretty as others we've seen.  Oh well....
Like these?

Only in the Vatican can funding sheep stealing be classified as "the work of Christian unity."
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« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2012, 12:32:13 PM »

"a clear sign of (the pope's) personal commitment to the work of Christian unity"

LOL.

Here's General Grant's personal commitment to the work of American unity.


Since I brought up the issue of Grant, we ought to be fair.

In his terms for the surrender of the Army Northern Virginia he took no prisoners but rather paroled the former Confederates and allowed the officers to retain their side-arms and horses so that they could return home to plant their crops - which would be sorely needed following the devastation of that war.   "Lee asked if the terms allowed his men (including non-officers) to keep their horses, for in the Confederate army men owned their mounts. Lee explained that his men would need these animals to farm once they returned to civilian life. Grant responded that he would not change the terms as written (which had no provisions allowing private soldiers to keep their mounts) but would order his officers to allow any Confederate claiming a horse or a mule to keep it." http://www.nps.gov/apco/the-meeting.htm
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« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2012, 12:51:08 PM »

Yeah, and he became President, too.
not his finest hour.


but it followed up on his finest hour


Gee, and here I thought this thread was about the Anglican Ordinariate and Pope Benedict XVI.  Silly me--what *was* I thinking?  Grin

But, hey, at least the maps were pretty, although not as pretty as others we've seen.  Oh well....
Like these?

Only in the Vatican can funding sheep stealing be classified as "the work of Christian unity."

Excellent maps!  A splendid display of color.  A veritable feast for the eyes!   Wink Wink

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« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2012, 12:53:03 PM »

"a clear sign of (the pope's) personal commitment to the work of Christian unity"

LOL.

Here's General Grant's personal commitment to the work of American unity.


Since I brought up the issue of Grant, we ought to be fair.

In his terms for the surrender of the Army Northern Virginia he took no prisoners but rather paroled the former Confederates and allowed the officers to retain their side-arms and horses so that they could return home to plant their crops - which would be sorely needed following the devastation of that war.   "Lee asked if the terms allowed his men (including non-officers) to keep their horses, for in the Confederate army men owned their mounts. Lee explained that his men would need these animals to farm once they returned to civilian life. Grant responded that he would not change the terms as written (which had no provisions allowing private soldiers to keep their mounts) but would order his officers to allow any Confederate claiming a horse or a mule to keep it." http://www.nps.gov/apco/the-meeting.htm

So, does someone need to rename the thread now?  Something like, "Grant's Terms For Surrender", and then put it in, say, the politics section  Grin Grin?

And, I wonder if the admin/mods would set up a separate "Pretty Maps" sub-forum, too?  Whatcha tink?
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« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2012, 12:59:26 PM »

"a clear sign of (the pope's) personal commitment to the work of Christian unity"

LOL.

Here's General Grant's personal commitment to the work of American unity.


Since I brought up the issue of Grant, we ought to be fair.

In his terms for the surrender of the Army Northern Virginia he took no prisoners but rather paroled the former Confederates and allowed the officers to retain their side-arms and horses so that they could return home to plant their crops - which would be sorely needed following the devastation of that war.   "Lee asked if the terms allowed his men (including non-officers) to keep their horses, for in the Confederate army men owned their mounts. Lee explained that his men would need these animals to farm once they returned to civilian life. Grant responded that he would not change the terms as written (which had no provisions allowing private soldiers to keep their mounts) but would order his officers to allow any Confederate claiming a horse or a mule to keep it." http://www.nps.gov/apco/the-meeting.htm
The Honeymoon period when a "union" is signed is always nice.  It's when the supreme authority is well established over those who submitted with a free hand that Reconstruction begins.
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« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2012, 01:00:53 PM »

Only in the Vatican can funding sheep stealing be classified as "the work of Christian unity."

Excellent maps!  A splendid display of color.  A veritable feast for the eyes!   Wink Wink
as long as we keep our eyes open, the Vatican won't feast on us.
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« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2012, 01:04:01 PM »

"a clear sign of (the pope's) personal commitment to the work of Christian unity"

LOL.

Here's General Grant's personal commitment to the work of American unity.


Since I brought up the issue of Grant, we ought to be fair.

In his terms for the surrender of the Army Northern Virginia he took no prisoners but rather paroled the former Confederates and allowed the officers to retain their side-arms and horses so that they could return home to plant their crops - which would be sorely needed following the devastation of that war.   "Lee asked if the terms allowed his men (including non-officers) to keep their horses, for in the Confederate army men owned their mounts. Lee explained that his men would need these animals to farm once they returned to civilian life. Grant responded that he would not change the terms as written (which had no provisions allowing private soldiers to keep their mounts) but would order his officers to allow any Confederate claiming a horse or a mule to keep it." http://www.nps.gov/apco/the-meeting.htm

So, does someone need to rename the thread now?  Something like, "Grant's Terms For Surrender", and then put it in, say, the politics section  Grin Grin?
No, I think "Vatican funds poaching of Anglicans in drive to make Canterbury Surrender on Ultramontanist Terms" belongs here.

And, I wonder if the admin/mods would set up a separate "Pretty Maps" sub-forum, too?  Whatcha tink?
Any reason we should segregate Truth into its own separate sub-forum?
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« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2012, 01:08:24 PM »

"a clear sign of (the pope's) personal commitment to the work of Christian unity"

LOL.

Here's General Grant's personal commitment to the work of American unity.


Since I brought up the issue of Grant, we ought to be fair.

In his terms for the surrender of the Army Northern Virginia he took no prisoners but rather paroled the former Confederates and allowed the officers to retain their side-arms and horses so that they could return home to plant their crops - which would be sorely needed following the devastation of that war.   "Lee asked if the terms allowed his men (including non-officers) to keep their horses, for in the Confederate army men owned their mounts. Lee explained that his men would need these animals to farm once they returned to civilian life. Grant responded that he would not change the terms as written (which had no provisions allowing private soldiers to keep their mounts) but would order his officers to allow any Confederate claiming a horse or a mule to keep it." http://www.nps.gov/apco/the-meeting.htm

So, does someone need to rename the thread now?  Something like, "Grant's Terms For Surrender", and then put it in, say, the politics section  Grin Grin?
No, I think "Vatican funds poaching of Anglicans in drive to make Canterbury Surrender on Ultramontanist Terms" belongs here.

And, I wonder if the admin/mods would set up a separate "Pretty Maps" sub-forum, too?  Whatcha tink?
Any reason we should segregate Truth into its own separate sub-forum?

Pretty maps = Truth?  Hmm.....I'll have to chew on that.
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« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2012, 01:41:09 PM »

Wait... So what are we talking about now?  Huh
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« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2012, 01:53:35 PM »

"a clear sign of (the pope's) personal commitment to the work of Christian unity"

LOL.

Here's General Grant's personal commitment to the work of American unity.


Since I brought up the issue of Grant, we ought to be fair.

In his terms for the surrender of the Army Northern Virginia he took no prisoners but rather paroled the former Confederates and allowed the officers to retain their side-arms and horses so that they could return home to plant their crops - which would be sorely needed following the devastation of that war.   "Lee asked if the terms allowed his men (including non-officers) to keep their horses, for in the Confederate army men owned their mounts. Lee explained that his men would need these animals to farm once they returned to civilian life. Grant responded that he would not change the terms as written (which had no provisions allowing private soldiers to keep their mounts) but would order his officers to allow any Confederate claiming a horse or a mule to keep it." http://www.nps.gov/apco/the-meeting.htm
The Honeymoon period when a "union" is signed is always nice.  It's when the supreme authority is well established over those who submitted with a free hand that Reconstruction begins.

Equally true from an historical perspective I might add, the chapter or three following Appomattox if I recall....
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« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2012, 02:08:16 PM »

Wait... So what are we talking about now?  Huh


  Huh You got me. Huh

Seems like our Orthodox brothers want to talk about something totally removed from what the thread is supposedly about and/or they just want to take more pot shots, ineffectual though they be, at our non-Orthodox Catholic faith  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes.  Maybe they're mistaking this for an American history discussion board.

But, what's important is that the maps are pretty.  And large, too! Grin
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« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2012, 02:36:49 PM »

^^  laugh laugh laugh

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« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2012, 02:44:09 PM »

Wait... So what are we talking about now?  Huh


  Huh You got me. Huh

Seems like our Orthodox brothers want to talk about something totally removed from what the thread is supposedly about and/or they just want to take more pot shots, ineffectual though they be, at our non-Orthodox Catholic faith  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes.  Maybe they're mistaking this for an American history discussion board.

But, what's important is that the maps are pretty.  And large, too! Grin
Those who will not learn from history are condemned to repeat it.  We won't be repeating it.
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« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2012, 02:46:15 PM »

The Honeymoon period when a "union" is signed is always nice. 

Hmmm ... I'm not sure you thought about that enough before saying it.  Undecided
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« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2012, 03:05:07 PM »

Wait... So what are we talking about now?  Huh


  Huh You got me. Huh

Seems like our Orthodox brothers want to talk about something totally removed from what the thread is supposedly about and/or they just want to take more pot shots, ineffectual though they be, at our non-Orthodox Catholic faith  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes.  Maybe they're mistaking this for an American history discussion board.

But, what's important is that the maps are pretty.  And large, too! Grin
Those who will not learn from history are condemned to repeat it.  We won't be repeating it.

Does that mean we'll be getting brand new, never-before-seen-here maps from now on?  No more dragging out the same old tattered things you almost always post?  That'd be just peachy!!  We're looking forward to it  Grin Grin Grin.
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« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2012, 03:25:19 PM »

Friends, if we ask whether the Ordinariates are about "sheep stealing", and try to answer with a simple yes or no, I think we are bound to oversimplify the situation. Some, such as Cardinal Kaspar, are clearly intent on the Ordinariates not being about "sheep stealing" or uniatism, but rather about those Anglicans who want (and, presumably, have been wanting for some years now) full communion with Rome. But that's not to deny that there are some who don't share Kaspar's intentions.
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« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2012, 03:33:18 PM »

Friends, if we ask whether the Ordinariates are about "sheep stealing", and try to answer with a simple yes or no, I think we are bound to oversimplify the situation. Some, such as Cardinal Kaspar, are clearly intent on the Ordinariates not being about "sheep stealing" or uniatism, but rather about those Anglicans who want (and, presumably, have been wanting for some years now) full communion with Rome. But that's not to deny that there are some who don't share Kaspar's intentions.

Agreed.  Unfortunately, some folks will see it as "sheep stealing" and only "sheep stealing".  Anything that might potentially bring others into the non-Orthodox Catholic fold seems to be "sheep stealing".  Oh well...
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« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2012, 04:06:42 PM »

The Honeymoon period when a "union" is signed is always nice. 

Hmmm ... I'm not sure you thought about that enough before saying it.  Undecided
Sure I did.  Of course I had in mind when the Vatican says "Bück dich!" (Bow down/bend over), to quote Rammstein (masters of double entendre).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJKeCJwwi0Q
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« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2012, 04:14:28 PM »

Wait... So what are we talking about now?  Huh


  Huh You got me. Huh

Seems like our Orthodox brothers want to talk about something totally removed from what the thread is supposedly about and/or they just want to take more pot shots, ineffectual though they be, at our non-Orthodox Catholic faith  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes.  Maybe they're mistaking this for an American history discussion board.

But, what's important is that the maps are pretty.  And large, too! Grin
Those who will not learn from history are condemned to repeat it.  We won't be repeating it.

Does that mean we'll be getting brand new, never-before-seen-here maps from now on?  No more dragging out the same old tattered things you almost always post?  That'd be just peachy!!  We're looking forward to it  Grin Grin Grin.
you will have to learn first old lessons before hoping for anything new.  Or are you used to being just passed from grade to grade?

Looking forward to your graduation. Grin
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« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2012, 04:22:56 PM »

Friends, if we ask whether the Ordinariates are about "sheep stealing", and try to answer with a simple yes or no, I think we are bound to oversimplify the situation.

Not at all.  The situation is quite simple.

Some, such as Cardinal Kaspar, are clearly intent on the Ordinariates not being about "sheep stealing" or uniatism, but rather about those Anglicans who want (and, presumably, have been wanting for some years now) full communion with Rome. But that's not to deny that there are some who don't share Kaspar's intentions.
And Cardinal Kaspar's hand in the Ordinariate is what again?
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« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2012, 04:25:21 PM »

Wait... So what are we talking about now?  Huh


  Huh You got me. Huh

Seems like our Orthodox brothers want to talk about something totally removed from what the thread is supposedly about and/or they just want to take more pot shots, ineffectual though they be, at our non-Orthodox Catholic faith  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes.  Maybe they're mistaking this for an American history discussion board.

But, what's important is that the maps are pretty.  And large, too! Grin
Those who will not learn from history are condemned to repeat it.  We won't be repeating it.

Does that mean we'll be getting brand new, never-before-seen-here maps from now on?  No more dragging out the same old tattered things you almost always post?  That'd be just peachy!!  We're looking forward to it  Grin Grin Grin.
you will have to learn first old lessons before hoping for anything new.  Or are you used to being just passed from grade to grade?

Looking forward to your graduation. Grin

 laugh laugh laugh

That was pretty good.  For a teacher, that is.  Grin

Sorry, but you missed the graduation--you must've had a long, Rip Van Winkle-type blink or something.  The only thing missing there (it was a long time ago, in a universe far, far away) was you with a map banner  Grin.  It would have been interesting to see an infant in diapers waving a banner with a map of LaLa-Land on it!  Oh...wait a minute...you weren't even a twinkle in your daddy's eye yet at that point.
 Kiss Kiss Kiss


Oh, by the way, I weary of trading insults and condescending remarks with you, so I think I'll call it quits for today, anyway Grin.  I guess we've both proven how juvenile we can be, you with your great education and me in my ignorance, to the delight (or is it dismay?) of others here.  But...don't let me stop *you* if you wish to continue.
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« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2012, 04:51:53 PM »

Friends, if we ask whether the Ordinariates are about "sheep stealing", and try to answer with a simple yes or no, I think we are bound to oversimplify the situation. Some, such as Cardinal Kaspar, are clearly intent on the Ordinariates not being about "sheep stealing" or uniatism, but rather about those Anglicans who want (and, presumably, have been wanting for some years now) full communion with Rome. But that's not to deny that there are some who don't share Kaspar's intentions.

Agreed.  Unfortunately, some folks will see it as "sheep stealing" and only "sheep stealing".  Anything that might potentially bring others into the non-Orthodox Catholic fold seems to be "sheep stealing".  Oh well...
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« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2012, 06:25:06 PM »

Friends, if we ask whether the Ordinariates are about "sheep stealing", and try to answer with a simple yes or no, I think we are bound to oversimplify the situation.

Not at all.  The situation is quite simple.

Some, such as Cardinal Kaspar, are clearly intent on the Ordinariates not being about "sheep stealing" or uniatism, but rather about those Anglicans who want (and, presumably, have been wanting for some years now) full communion with Rome. But that's not to deny that there are some who don't share Kaspar's intentions.
And Cardinal Kaspar's hand in the Ordinariate is what again?

Don't know. I was thinking of that trip he took, when he carefully explained to the Orthodox that the Anglican Ordinariates are not a repeat of the Union of Brest.
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« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2012, 06:39:57 PM »

Friends, if we ask whether the Ordinariates are about "sheep stealing", and try to answer with a simple yes or no, I think we are bound to oversimplify the situation.

Not at all.  The situation is quite simple.

Some, such as Cardinal Kaspar, are clearly intent on the Ordinariates not being about "sheep stealing" or uniatism, but rather about those Anglicans who want (and, presumably, have been wanting for some years now) full communion with Rome. But that's not to deny that there are some who don't share Kaspar's intentions.
And Cardinal Kaspar's hand in the Ordinariate is what again?

Don't know. I was thinking of that trip he took, when he carefully explained to the Orthodox that the Anglican Ordinariates are not a repeat of the Union of Brest.
Did he explain why we should care?
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« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2012, 07:11:28 PM »

Friends, if we ask whether the Ordinariates are about "sheep stealing", and try to answer with a simple yes or no, I think we are bound to oversimplify the situation.

Not at all.  The situation is quite simple.

Some, such as Cardinal Kaspar, are clearly intent on the Ordinariates not being about "sheep stealing" or uniatism, but rather about those Anglicans who want (and, presumably, have been wanting for some years now) full communion with Rome. But that's not to deny that there are some who don't share Kaspar's intentions.
And Cardinal Kaspar's hand in the Ordinariate is what again?

Don't know. I was thinking of that trip he took, when he carefully explained to the Orthodox that the Anglican Ordinariates are not a repeat of the Union of Brest.
Did he explain why we should care?

This may sound strange coming from me, but I've been wondering that myself for some time now.
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« Reply #33 on: May 03, 2012, 07:13:15 PM »

Friends, if we ask whether the Ordinariates are about "sheep stealing", and try to answer with a simple yes or no, I think we are bound to oversimplify the situation.

Not at all.  The situation is quite simple.

Some, such as Cardinal Kaspar, are clearly intent on the Ordinariates not being about "sheep stealing" or uniatism, but rather about those Anglicans who want (and, presumably, have been wanting for some years now) full communion with Rome. But that's not to deny that there are some who don't share Kaspar's intentions.
And Cardinal Kaspar's hand in the Ordinariate is what again?

Don't know. I was thinking of that trip he took, when he carefully explained to the Orthodox that the Anglican Ordinariates are not a repeat of the Union of Brest.
Did he explain why we should care?
Because you are such a loving and caring individual. Smiley
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« Reply #34 on: May 04, 2012, 05:39:12 PM »

I guess we've both proven how juvenile we can be,

The trick is to act like you're not pleased with yourselves about it.
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« Reply #35 on: May 04, 2012, 05:52:03 PM »

I was thinking of that trip he took, when he carefully explained to the Orthodox that the Anglican Ordinariates are not a repeat of the Union of Brest.

I was a little rusty on the details when I posted that, but now I've found them:

----------------------------

In Cyprus, the news that the Catholic Church is ready to incorporate groups coming from Anglicanism also put the Orthodox on alert. Their fear is that a "Uniate" Church of the Anglican rite will be established and added to the "Uniate" Churches of the various Eastern rites: these are Churches obedient to the pope of Rome but in everything else the equals and rivals of the Orthodox.

In this regard, Kasper says in the interview:

"In Cyprus, in order to avoid misunderstandings, I immediately told our Orthodox counterparts that this is not a matter of proselytism or a new Uniatism. [...] Uniatism is an historical phenomenon involving the Eastern Churches, while the Anglicans are from the Latin tradition. The Balamand document of 1993 is still valid, according to which this is a phenomenon of the past that took place in unrepeatable circumstances. It is not a method for the present or the future. The Orthodox were mainly interested in understanding the nature of the personal ordinariates for the Anglicans, and I clarified that this is not a matter of a Church 'sui iuris', and therefore there will not be the head of a Church, but an ordinary with delegated powers."

In simpler terms: while a "Uniate" Church has its own structured hierarchy, with a patriarch and territorial dioceses, none of this will apply to the former Anglican "personal ordinariates," which will provide pastoral care for the faithful but without their own ecclesiastical territory, a little bit like the military ordinariates.

The new ordinariates will be characterized by the preservation of the Anglican rite for the Mass and the other sacraments – with liturgical books that were  approved for the United States in the 1980's by the Vatican congregation for divine worship – and by the possibility of having married priests.

http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1341020?eng=y
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« Reply #36 on: May 04, 2012, 05:59:09 PM »

Quote
ROME -- Pope Benedict XVI donated $250,000 to the Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham to help support its clergy and work.

The gift "is a clear sign of (the pope's) personal commitment to the work of Christian unity and the special place the ordinariate holds in his heart," said Archbishop Antonio Mennini, the Vatican nuncio to Great Britain.

The ordinariate made the announcement in a press statement May 1.

"The gift will help establish the ordinariate as a vibrant part of the Catholic Church in England and Wales," the statement said.

"a clear sign of (the pope's) personal commitment to the work of Christian unity"

LOL.

Here's General Grant's personal commitment to the work of American unity.

Yes yes, ha ha, etc.

Seriously, it seems to me that that donation is small enough that it shouldn't raise too many eyebrows. (Excepting, of course, those with stuck-eyebrow syndrome.) If the Pope had donated $10 million to the ordinariate, I would be the first to say What the ruddy ell?
I would add, too, that while much of what the Pope does to foster unity amongst Christians probably goes relatively unnoticed, this obviously hasn't, and I think that's a good thing.  At least he can be seen to be doing something towards that end in contrast with many other Christians, both on this board and across the world.

I would add, too, that much of what Orthodox Christians do to foster unity amongst Christians probably goes relatively unnoticed. In fact, millions of Orthodox Christians pray for unity, and specifically for Roman Catholics, every day with their Morning Prayers that appear in the Orthodox Study Bible:

"Those who depart from the Orthodox Faith, dazzled by destroying heresies, enlighten by the light of Your holy wisdom, and unite them to Your Holy, Apostolic, Catholic Church".

Amen.
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« Reply #37 on: May 04, 2012, 08:38:31 PM »

The Honeymoon period when a "union" is signed is always nice. 

Here's a couple other things I've found online about St. Mary's. The first is from
http://www.theanglocatholic.com/2011/02/why-st-mary-of-the-angels-matters/

Quote
The people of the parish of St. Mary of the Angels in Hollywood, under the leadership of their rector Fr. Jack Barker, were among the first “Groups of Anglicans” to petition for return to full communion. Three decades ago, in the summer of 1981, they found themselves, as their successor congregants do again today, on the cusp of reunion with Rome. They, along with a second Anglican congregation in Los Angeles, had requested and were anticipating their imminent reception into the Archdiocese of Los Angles as personal parishes of the Pastoral Provision.

Had this occurred as expected, then today we might acknowledge the parish of St. Mary of the Angels, rather than the parish of Our Lady of the Atonement (San Antonio, 1983) as the first Anglican Use congregation.

As Fr. Barker relates in a copyright tract which should be required reading for all who are interested in these matters, the reception of the two Los Angeles groups was unexpectedly denied, owing to the influence of “ecumenical” forces within the Roman Catholic Church. The Archbishop of Los Angeles, Cardinal Manning, ruled that these two parishes would not be received into the Church, and that no personal parish of the Pastoral Provision would be allowed in the Archdiocese. Individuals were free to seek reception individually.
(emphasis added)

The second is from a parishoner of St. Mary's speaking out:

Quote
My Bothers & Sisters, This squabbling is a luxury St. Mary's never could afford, and it may very well have destroyed the parish. Please pray the Lord would uproot this "Root of Bitterness" that has been nurtured by so many members of the Congregation and has been either ignored or allowed to grow by so many others over the past several years. Please pray the Lord would rebuke this demonic Spirit of Partisanship ("I am of this person," "I am an ANGLICAN," "I'm NOT nor will I ever be a ROMAN Catholic,") that has infected & infested St. Mary's for far too long. And, Please also pray that a spirit of love, unity and peace would replace these demonic spirits of division and partisanship, and that these holy spirits of love, unity and peace would so fill the congregation of St. Mary's that these painful divisions would cease, and that St. Mary's could once again be a witness for our Lord to the Motion Picture community and to the people who live near the parish...

(emphasis added)
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=664526

Maybe I just don't understand what "nice" is. Wink
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« Reply #38 on: May 08, 2012, 03:01:07 PM »

The Anglican ordinariates are no more "sheep stealing" than is Western Rite Orthodoxy.  In each case you have Anglicans who desire full communion with what they have come to consider the true church.  They're not being forced in - if anything, they were forced out of Anglicanism.
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« Reply #39 on: May 08, 2012, 03:14:06 PM »

The Anglican ordinariates are no more "sheep stealing" than is Western Rite Orthodoxy.  In each case you have Anglicans who desire full communion with what they have come to consider the true church.  They're not being forced in - if anything, they were forced out of Anglicanism.
That's true enough.

The WRO, however, are not claiming to be promoting "Christian unity."  They unite individuals and parishes to Orthodoxy, and are up front about that.
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« Reply #40 on: May 08, 2012, 06:46:32 PM »

The WRO, however, are not claiming to be promoting "Christian unity."  They unite individuals and parishes to Orthodoxy, and are up front about that.

Question is, do you see those who want to remain Anglican as following a "demonic Spirit of Partisanship"? (See the earlier line about "Please pray the Lord would rebuke this demonic Spirit of Partisanship ("I am of this person," "I am an ANGLICAN," "I'm NOT nor will I ever be a ROMAN Catholic,") that has infected & infested St. Mary's for far too long".)
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« Reply #41 on: May 08, 2012, 07:53:32 PM »

The WRO, however, are not claiming to be promoting "Christian unity."  They unite individuals and parishes to Orthodoxy, and are up front about that.

Question is, do you see those who want to remain Anglican as following a "demonic Spirit of Partisanship"? (See the earlier line about "Please pray the Lord would rebuke this demonic Spirit of Partisanship ("I am of this person," "I am an ANGLICAN," "I'm NOT nor will I ever be a ROMAN Catholic,") that has infected & infested St. Mary's for far too long".)
No.  I would expect anyone who holds to the principles of the English "Reformation" would reject Pastor Aeternus and the demonic Spirit of Ultramontanism.
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« Reply #42 on: May 08, 2012, 08:32:09 PM »

No.  I would expect anyone who holds to the principles of the English "Reformation" would reject Pastor Aeternus and the demonic Spirit of Ultramontanism.

I guess you misread the question:

Question is, do you see those who want to remain Anglican as following a "demonic Spirit of Partisanship"?
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« Reply #43 on: May 08, 2012, 08:52:08 PM »

No.  I would expect anyone who holds to the principles of the English "Reformation" would reject Pastor Aeternus and the demonic Spirit of Ultramontanism.

I guess you misread the question:

Question is, do you see those who want to remain Anglican as following a "demonic Spirit of Partisanship"?

No, I read it correctly, and answered it correctly.
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« Reply #44 on: May 08, 2012, 09:10:26 PM »

No.  I would expect anyone who holds to the principles of the English "Reformation" would reject Pastor Aeternus and the demonic Spirit of Ultramontanism.

I guess you misread the question:

Question is, do you see those who want to remain Anglican as following a "demonic Spirit of Partisanship"?

No, I read it correctly, and answered it correctly.

Hmmm ... so is this your way of saying that you equate the terms "partisanship" and "ultramontanism" with each other?
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« Reply #45 on: May 08, 2012, 09:22:42 PM »

No.  I would expect anyone who holds to the principles of the English "Reformation" would reject Pastor Aeternus and the demonic Spirit of Ultramontanism.

I guess you misread the question:

Question is, do you see those who want to remain Anglican as following a "demonic Spirit of Partisanship"?

No, I read it correctly, and answered it correctly.

Hmmm ... so is this your way of saying that you equate the terms "partisanship" and "ultramontanism" with each other?
No, I'm saying that rejection of ultramontanism doesn't necessarily entail partisanship, nor does ultramontanism preclude partisanship.
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« Reply #46 on: May 08, 2012, 09:32:23 PM »

No, I'm saying that rejection of ultramontanism doesn't necessarily entail partisanship, nor does ultramontanism preclude partisanship.

Well I can agree with that. But what I'm wondering is, do you believe that those who want to remain Anglican (and, hence, not becoming Orthodox, WRO or otherwise) are following a "demonic Spirit of Partisanship"?
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« Reply #47 on: May 08, 2012, 10:05:50 PM »

No, I'm saying that rejection of ultramontanism doesn't necessarily entail partisanship, nor does ultramontanism preclude partisanship.

Well I can agree with that. But what I'm wondering is, do you believe that those who want to remain Anglican (and, hence, not becoming Orthodox, WRO or otherwise) are following a "demonic Spirit of Partisanship"?
they could be following the demonic Spirit of the filioque.
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« Reply #48 on: May 08, 2012, 10:15:16 PM »

No, I'm saying that rejection of ultramontanism doesn't necessarily entail partisanship, nor does ultramontanism preclude partisanship.

Well I can agree with that. But what I'm wondering is, do you believe that those who want to remain Anglican (and, hence, not becoming Orthodox, WRO or otherwise) are following a "demonic Spirit of Partisanship"?
they could be following the demonic Spirit of the filioque.

Can't say I like your position much better than the other "demonic spirit" criticism.
:emoticon:
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« Reply #49 on: May 08, 2012, 10:43:51 PM »

No, I'm saying that rejection of ultramontanism doesn't necessarily entail partisanship, nor does ultramontanism preclude partisanship.

Well I can agree with that. But what I'm wondering is, do you believe that those who want to remain Anglican (and, hence, not becoming Orthodox, WRO or otherwise) are following a "demonic Spirit of Partisanship"?
they could be following the demonic Spirit of the filioque.

Can't say I like your position much better than the other "demonic spirit" criticism.
:emoticon:
You brought up demons.  I'd just say they were attached to heresy.
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« Reply #50 on: May 09, 2012, 01:44:29 AM »

No, I'm saying that rejection of ultramontanism doesn't necessarily entail partisanship, nor does ultramontanism preclude partisanship.

Well I can agree with that. But what I'm wondering is, do you believe that those who want to remain Anglican (and, hence, not becoming Orthodox, WRO or otherwise) are following a "demonic Spirit of Partisanship"?
they could be following the demonic Spirit of the filioque.
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« Reply #51 on: May 09, 2012, 01:22:31 PM »

No, I'm saying that rejection of ultramontanism doesn't necessarily entail partisanship, nor does ultramontanism preclude partisanship.

Well I can agree with that. But what I'm wondering is, do you believe that those who want to remain Anglican (and, hence, not becoming Orthodox, WRO or otherwise) are following a "demonic Spirit of Partisanship"?
they could be following the demonic Spirit of the filioque.
If I were you I wouldn't insult the Holy Spirit that way.
"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven" (Matt. 12:31)
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« Reply #52 on: May 09, 2012, 02:28:35 PM »

No, I'm saying that rejection of ultramontanism doesn't necessarily entail partisanship, nor does ultramontanism preclude partisanship.

Well I can agree with that. But what I'm wondering is, do you believe that those who want to remain Anglican (and, hence, not becoming Orthodox, WRO or otherwise) are following a "demonic Spirit of Partisanship"?
they could be following the demonic Spirit of the filioque.
If I were you I wouldn't insult the Holy Spirit that way.
"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven" (Matt. 12:31)
which is why Toledo and all those who follow it should shudder.

The Fathers of Constantinople I and those who follow them have nothing to fear.
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« Reply #53 on: May 09, 2012, 02:59:50 PM »

No, I'm saying that rejection of ultramontanism doesn't necessarily entail partisanship, nor does ultramontanism preclude partisanship.

Well I can agree with that. But what I'm wondering is, do you believe that those who want to remain Anglican (and, hence, not becoming Orthodox, WRO or otherwise) are following a "demonic Spirit of Partisanship"?
they could be following the demonic Spirit of the filioque.
If I were you I wouldn't insult the Holy Spirit that way.
"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven" (Matt. 12:31)
which is why Toledo and all those who follow it should shudder.

The Fathers of Constantinople I and those who follow them have nothing to fear.
Since you referred to God the Holy Spirit, as a "demonic spirit", I would shudder if I were you.
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« Reply #54 on: May 09, 2012, 03:26:03 PM »

No, I'm saying that rejection of ultramontanism doesn't necessarily entail partisanship, nor does ultramontanism preclude partisanship.

Well I can agree with that. But what I'm wondering is, do you believe that those who want to remain Anglican (and, hence, not becoming Orthodox, WRO or otherwise) are following a "demonic Spirit of Partisanship"?
they could be following the demonic Spirit of the filioque.
If I were you I wouldn't insult the Holy Spirit that way.
"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven" (Matt. 12:31)
which is why Toledo and all those who follow it should shudder.

The Fathers of Constantinople I and those who follow them have nothing to fear.
Since you referred to God the Holy Spirit, as a "demonic spirit", I would shudder if I were you.


Depending on how you gloss the word in which writings demon is easily synonymous with spirit thus being redundant here, or meaning god or even God.

People know around here I want to start a podcast on AFR called either:

Our Demonic Christ

or

Our Diabolical Christ

It's the sorta edge, the kids need nowadays. And perfectly defensible usage once you understand the subtleties of language well enough.
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« Reply #55 on: May 09, 2012, 03:34:08 PM »

No, I'm saying that rejection of ultramontanism doesn't necessarily entail partisanship, nor does ultramontanism preclude partisanship.

Well I can agree with that. But what I'm wondering is, do you believe that those who want to remain Anglican (and, hence, not becoming Orthodox, WRO or otherwise) are following a "demonic Spirit of Partisanship"?
they could be following the demonic Spirit of the filioque.
If I were you I wouldn't insult the Holy Spirit that way.
"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven" (Matt. 12:31)
which is why Toledo and all those who follow it should shudder.

The Fathers of Constantinople I and those who follow them have nothing to fear.
Since you referred to God the Holy Spirit, as a "demonic spirit", I would shudder if I were you.


Depending on how you gloss the word in which writings demon is easily synonymous with spirit thus being redundant here, or meaning god or even God.

People know around here I want to start a podcast on AFR called either:

Our Demonic Christ

or

Our Diabolical Christ

It's the sorta edge, the kids need nowadays. And perfectly defensible usage once you understand the subtleties of language well enough.
The context doesn't support the "daemon" definition.
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« Reply #56 on: May 09, 2012, 03:45:36 PM »

No, I'm saying that rejection of ultramontanism doesn't necessarily entail partisanship, nor does ultramontanism preclude partisanship.

Well I can agree with that. But what I'm wondering is, do you believe that those who want to remain Anglican (and, hence, not becoming Orthodox, WRO or otherwise) are following a "demonic Spirit of Partisanship"?
they could be following the demonic Spirit of the filioque.
If I were you I wouldn't insult the Holy Spirit that way.
"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven" (Matt. 12:31)
which is why Toledo and all those who follow it should shudder.

The Fathers of Constantinople I and those who follow them have nothing to fear.
Since you referred to God the Holy Spirit, as a "demonic spirit", I would shudder if I were you.


Depending on how you gloss the word in which writings demon is easily synonymous with spirit thus being redundant here, or meaning god or even God.

People know around here I want to start a podcast on AFR called either:

Our Demonic Christ

or

Our Diabolical Christ

It's the sorta edge, the kids need nowadays. And perfectly defensible usage once you understand the subtleties of language well enough.
The context doesn't support the "daemon" definition.

Perhaps with charitable reading, like we all should be doing, it does.

Follow my example and see what giving people the benefit of the doubt all the time does for you.
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« Reply #57 on: May 09, 2012, 03:54:19 PM »

No, I'm saying that rejection of ultramontanism doesn't necessarily entail partisanship, nor does ultramontanism preclude partisanship.

Well I can agree with that. But what I'm wondering is, do you believe that those who want to remain Anglican (and, hence, not becoming Orthodox, WRO or otherwise) are following a "demonic Spirit of Partisanship"?
they could be following the demonic Spirit of the filioque.
If I were you I wouldn't insult the Holy Spirit that way.
"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven" (Matt. 12:31)
which is why Toledo and all those who follow it should shudder.

The Fathers of Constantinople I and those who follow them have nothing to fear.
Since you referred to God the Holy Spirit, as a "demonic spirit", I would shudder if I were you.


Depending on how you gloss the word in which writings demon is easily synonymous with spirit thus being redundant here, or meaning god or even God.

People know around here I want to start a podcast on AFR called either:

Our Demonic Christ

or

Our Diabolical Christ

It's the sorta edge, the kids need nowadays. And perfectly defensible usage once you understand the subtleties of language well enough.
The context doesn't support the "daemon" definition.

Perhaps with charitable reading, like we all should be doing, it does.

Follow my example and see what giving people the benefit of the doubt all the time does for you.

I don't think Isa had "daemons" (the benevolent nature spirits, etc. of classical mythology) in mind when he wrote "they could be following the demonic Spirit of the filioque."  And I think you know that.
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« Reply #58 on: May 09, 2012, 04:06:00 PM »

No, I'm saying that rejection of ultramontanism doesn't necessarily entail partisanship, nor does ultramontanism preclude partisanship.

Well I can agree with that. But what I'm wondering is, do you believe that those who want to remain Anglican (and, hence, not becoming Orthodox, WRO or otherwise) are following a "demonic Spirit of Partisanship"?
they could be following the demonic Spirit of the filioque.
If I were you I wouldn't insult the Holy Spirit that way.
"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven" (Matt. 12:31)
which is why Toledo and all those who follow it should shudder.

The Fathers of Constantinople I and those who follow them have nothing to fear.
Since you referred to God the Holy Spirit, as a "demonic spirit", I would shudder if I were you.


Depending on how you gloss the word in which writings demon is easily synonymous with spirit thus being redundant here, or meaning god or even God.

People know around here I want to start a podcast on AFR called either:

Our Demonic Christ

or

Our Diabolical Christ

It's the sorta edge, the kids need nowadays. And perfectly defensible usage once you understand the subtleties of language well enough.
The context doesn't support the "daemon" definition.

Perhaps with charitable reading, like we all should be doing, it does.

Follow my example and see what giving people the benefit of the doubt all the time does for you.

I don't think Isa had "daemons" (the benevolent nature spirits, etc. of classical mythology) in mind when he wrote "they could be following the demonic Spirit of the filioque."  And I think you know that.

And I don't think that, in context, he had the actual Holy Spirit in mind either. And I think you and Papist know that.
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« Reply #59 on: May 09, 2012, 04:17:03 PM »

No, I'm saying that rejection of ultramontanism doesn't necessarily entail partisanship, nor does ultramontanism preclude partisanship.

Well I can agree with that. But what I'm wondering is, do you believe that those who want to remain Anglican (and, hence, not becoming Orthodox, WRO or otherwise) are following a "demonic Spirit of Partisanship"?
they could be following the demonic Spirit of the filioque.
If I were you I wouldn't insult the Holy Spirit that way.
"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven" (Matt. 12:31)
which is why Toledo and all those who follow it should shudder.

The Fathers of Constantinople I and those who follow them have nothing to fear.
Since you referred to God the Holy Spirit, as a "demonic spirit", I would shudder if I were you.


Depending on how you gloss the word in which writings demon is easily synonymous with spirit thus being redundant here, or meaning god or even God.

People know around here I want to start a podcast on AFR called either:

Our Demonic Christ

or

Our Diabolical Christ

It's the sorta edge, the kids need nowadays. And perfectly defensible usage once you understand the subtleties of language well enough.
The context doesn't support the "daemon" definition.

Perhaps with charitable reading, like we all should be doing, it does.

Follow my example and see what giving people the benefit of the doubt all the time does for you.

I don't think Isa had "daemons" (the benevolent nature spirits, etc. of classical mythology) in mind when he wrote "they could be following the demonic Spirit of the filioque."  And I think you know that.

And I don't think that, in context, he had the actual Holy Spirit in mind either. And I think you and Papist know that.

To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure what, exactly, Isa had in mind when he wrote that.  Judging from the context, to whom he was replying, and from many other things he's written in the past, I stand by what I wrote: "I don't think Isa had "daemons" (the benevolent nature spirits, etc. of classical mythology) in mind..."
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« Reply #60 on: May 09, 2012, 04:58:22 PM »

No, I'm saying that rejection of ultramontanism doesn't necessarily entail partisanship, nor does ultramontanism preclude partisanship.

Well I can agree with that. But what I'm wondering is, do you believe that those who want to remain Anglican (and, hence, not becoming Orthodox, WRO or otherwise) are following a "demonic Spirit of Partisanship"?
they could be following the demonic Spirit of the filioque.

Can't say I like your position much better than the other "demonic spirit" criticism.
:emoticon:
You brought up demons.  I'd just say they were attached to heresy.

I can think of 2 ways Isa's statement could be interpretted (both of which are quite negative).

When I first read it, I assumed he meant that the RC "heresy" about the Holy Spirit was demon-influenced.

But this afternoon it occurred to me that he might be saying that we don't follow the same God as the Orthodox do.
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« Reply #61 on: May 09, 2012, 05:11:09 PM »

Johnny Damon, anyone?
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« Reply #62 on: May 09, 2012, 05:12:55 PM »

Johnny Damon, anyone?

Nice!
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« Reply #63 on: May 09, 2012, 05:18:00 PM »

Johnny Damon, anyone?

Definitely NOT!  

He left the Red Sox, and now look at them  Angry Sad Angry Sad!

In our house he's Johnny The Traitor Damon.





 Wink
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 05:19:22 PM by J Michael » Logged

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« Reply #64 on: May 09, 2012, 05:36:42 PM »

Johnny Damon, anyone?

He looked like Jesus, he betrayed us like Judas.
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« Reply #65 on: May 09, 2012, 05:37:59 PM »

Johnny Damon, anyone?

He looked like Jesus, he betrayed us like Judas.

Too bad I know nothing about professional sports in general, cause this sounds like brilliance.
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« Reply #66 on: May 09, 2012, 06:19:35 PM »

I can think of 2 ways Isa's statement could be interpretted (both of which are quite negative).

Oh, I'm not claiming that any RC is going to find Isa's statement inoffensive. I'm just saying that it's rather disingenuous to try to claim that he called the Holy Spirit 'demonic' (in any sense).
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« Reply #67 on: May 09, 2012, 06:28:46 PM »

Oh, I'm not claiming that any RC is going to find Isa's statement inoffensive. I'm just saying that it's rather disingenuous to try to claim that he called the Holy Spirit 'demonic' (in any sense).

That depends.

Some people say that, if charismatic gifts are truly a divine manifestation, then those who call the charismatic movement "demonic" are blaspheming.

By a similar argument, if Catholicism is the one true church, then anyone who says that it follows a false god could be said to be blaspheming.

Of course, it both cases, actual intention to blaspheme is doubtful.
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« Reply #68 on: May 09, 2012, 10:58:26 PM »

I can think of 2 ways Isa's statement could be interpretted (both of which are quite negative).

Oh, I'm not claiming that any RC is going to find Isa's statement inoffensive. I'm just saying that it's rather disingenuous to try to claim that he called the Holy Spirit 'demonic' (in any sense).

Of course, Isa is being Isa. Which is a drag for RCs and part of his schtick I don't care for, but hey it takes all kinds. However, it is insane to think he was intentionally blaspheming.
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« Reply #69 on: May 09, 2012, 11:13:30 PM »

Oh, I'm not claiming that any RC is going to find Isa's statement inoffensive. I'm just saying that it's rather disingenuous to try to claim that he called the Holy Spirit 'demonic' (in any sense).

That depends.

Some people say that, if charismatic gifts are truly a divine manifestation, then those who call the charismatic movement "demonic" are blaspheming.

By a similar argument, if Catholicism is the one true church, then anyone who says that it follows a false god could be said to be blaspheming.

Of course, it both cases, actual intention to blaspheme is doubtful.

That assumes one defines blasphemy from the point of the hearer rather than the point of the speaker. I grant that it's arguable which is the correct perspective, but defining it from the hearer's perspective pretty much makes dialogue impossible--after all, since the Church is the Body of Christ, every time one of you claims that the Orthodox Church is not the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church of the Creed I could argue that you were committing blasphemy--from an Orthodox perspective.

Not to mention that if one accepts that blasphemy should be defined from the hearer's perspective, it doesn't leave much room for objection when a significant segment of the world's population takes "Mohammed was not a prophet" as actionable blasphemy.
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« Reply #70 on: May 09, 2012, 11:24:28 PM »

No, I'm saying that rejection of ultramontanism doesn't necessarily entail partisanship, nor does ultramontanism preclude partisanship.

Well I can agree with that. But what I'm wondering is, do you believe that those who want to remain Anglican (and, hence, not becoming Orthodox, WRO or otherwise) are following a "demonic Spirit of Partisanship"?
they could be following the demonic Spirit of the filioque.
If I were you I wouldn't insult the Holy Spirit that way.
"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven" (Matt. 12:31)
which is why Toledo and all those who follow it should shudder.

The Fathers of Constantinople I and those who follow them have nothing to fear.
With all due respect to both of you, I don't think Christ was talking about acceptance or rejection of the filioque when He spoke of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
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« Reply #71 on: May 10, 2012, 12:31:41 AM »

No, I'm saying that rejection of ultramontanism doesn't necessarily entail partisanship, nor does ultramontanism preclude partisanship.

Well I can agree with that. But what I'm wondering is, do you believe that those who want to remain Anglican (and, hence, not becoming Orthodox, WRO or otherwise) are following a "demonic Spirit of Partisanship"?
they could be following the demonic Spirit of the filioque.
If I were you I wouldn't insult the Holy Spirit that way.
"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven" (Matt. 12:31)
which is why Toledo and all those who follow it should shudder.

The Fathers of Constantinople I and those who follow them have nothing to fear.
Since you referred to God the Holy Spirit, as a "demonic spirit", I would shudder if I were you.


Depending on how you gloss the word in which writings demon is easily synonymous with spirit thus being redundant here, or meaning god or even God.

People know around here I want to start a podcast on AFR called either:

Our Demonic Christ

or

Our Diabolical Christ

It's the sorta edge, the kids need nowadays. And perfectly defensible usage once you understand the subtleties of language well enough.

Don't forget, Effing Our Effable God
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« Reply #72 on: May 10, 2012, 12:33:04 AM »

No, I'm saying that rejection of ultramontanism doesn't necessarily entail partisanship, nor does ultramontanism preclude partisanship.

Well I can agree with that. But what I'm wondering is, do you believe that those who want to remain Anglican (and, hence, not becoming Orthodox, WRO or otherwise) are following a "demonic Spirit of Partisanship"?
they could be following the demonic Spirit of the filioque.
If I were you I wouldn't insult the Holy Spirit that way.
"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven" (Matt. 12:31)
which is why Toledo and all those who follow it should shudder.

The Fathers of Constantinople I and those who follow them have nothing to fear.
Since you referred to God the Holy Spirit, as a "demonic spirit", I would shudder if I were you.


Depending on how you gloss the word in which writings demon is easily synonymous with spirit thus being redundant here, or meaning god or even God.

People know around here I want to start a podcast on AFR called either:

Our Demonic Christ

or

Our Diabolical Christ

It's the sorta edge, the kids need nowadays. And perfectly defensible usage once you understand the subtleties of language well enough.

Don't forget, Our effable God.

I am so glad someone can remember all my brilliance.
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« Reply #73 on: May 10, 2012, 12:37:33 AM »

No, I'm saying that rejection of ultramontanism doesn't necessarily entail partisanship, nor does ultramontanism preclude partisanship.

Well I can agree with that. But what I'm wondering is, do you believe that those who want to remain Anglican (and, hence, not becoming Orthodox, WRO or otherwise) are following a "demonic Spirit of Partisanship"?
they could be following the demonic Spirit of the filioque.
If I were you I wouldn't insult the Holy Spirit that way.
"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven" (Matt. 12:31)
which is why Toledo and all those who follow it should shudder.

The Fathers of Constantinople I and those who follow them have nothing to fear.
Since you referred to God the Holy Spirit, as a "demonic spirit", I would shudder if I were you.


Depending on how you gloss the word in which writings demon is easily synonymous with spirit thus being redundant here, or meaning god or even God.

People know around here I want to start a podcast on AFR called either:

Our Demonic Christ

or

Our Diabolical Christ

It's the sorta edge, the kids need nowadays. And perfectly defensible usage once you understand the subtleties of language well enough.

Don't forget, Our effable God.

I am so glad someone can remember all my brilliance.

Evidently not, as it took me a second to realize how that was supposed to be worded in order to be funny, but alas you were too fast.
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« Reply #74 on: May 10, 2012, 12:39:01 AM »

No, I'm saying that rejection of ultramontanism doesn't necessarily entail partisanship, nor does ultramontanism preclude partisanship.

Well I can agree with that. But what I'm wondering is, do you believe that those who want to remain Anglican (and, hence, not becoming Orthodox, WRO or otherwise) are following a "demonic Spirit of Partisanship"?
they could be following the demonic Spirit of the filioque.
If I were you I wouldn't insult the Holy Spirit that way.
"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven" (Matt. 12:31)
which is why Toledo and all those who follow it should shudder.

The Fathers of Constantinople I and those who follow them have nothing to fear.
Since you referred to God the Holy Spirit, as a "demonic spirit", I would shudder if I were you.


Depending on how you gloss the word in which writings demon is easily synonymous with spirit thus being redundant here, or meaning god or even God.

People know around here I want to start a podcast on AFR called either:

Our Demonic Christ

or

Our Diabolical Christ

It's the sorta edge, the kids need nowadays. And perfectly defensible usage once you understand the subtleties of language well enough.

Don't forget, Our effable God.

I am so glad someone can remember all my brilliance.

Evidently not, as it took me a second to realize how that was supposed to be worded in order to be funny, but alas you were too fast.

I just need the gist. I can work with it from there.
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« Reply #75 on: May 10, 2012, 11:34:04 AM »

Johnny Damon, anyone?

He looked like Jesus, he betrayed us like Judas.

Yes he did. And he was brilliant in the 2009 World Series for the Evil Empire.
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« Reply #76 on: May 10, 2012, 12:06:54 PM »

Johnny Damon, anyone?

He looked like Jesus, he betrayed us like Judas.

Yes he did. And he was brilliant in the 2009 World Series for the Evil Empire.

Nothing like the demons, er...damons, of baseball to lead us astray from the OP and defuse tempers, eh?   Grin Grin

I know Johnny's a traitor, but....he played for the Soviet Union?  Wow--a true prodigy, eh?  They played baseball???
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 12:10:09 PM by J Michael » Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
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