"Catholic vs Christian"

[Peter J]

I think part of the reason that you have Catholics drawing a distinction between "Catholic" and "Christian" is that Protestants don't typically refer to themselves as "Protestant." When asked what religion they belong to, a Protestant will likely say that they are Christian, but a Catholic will say that they are Catholic. Also, in my experience it is rare for Protestants to know what beliefs and teachings belong specifically to their particular denomination, so they tend to label all of their beliefs as "Christian." Catholics, on the other hand, tend to label things from the Catechism and Magisterium as specifically "Catholic" beliefs as opposed to broadly saying they are "Christian" teachings. I think that type of labeling puts a lot of Catholics in the mindset that Catholic is one thing and Christian is something else.

Good point. Another thing worth noting is that when catholics -- in the general sense of Catholics, EOs, OOs, Anglicans, Lutherans, and a few smaller groups -- answer the question, they don't say "I'm catholic [in the general sense]", rather they would either say "I'm Christian" or (more likely) would specify EO, OO, Anglican etc.

Likewise, when protestants answer the question, they don't say "I'm protestant", rather they would either say "I'm Christian" or would specify Baptist, Presbyterian, Methodist, etc.

[Peter J]

LCMS/WELS Lutherans have a favorable attitude towards both Orthodox and Catholics.

I don't know how they feel about Orthodox, but I definitely would not call the WELS attitude toward Catholicism "favorable". 

[primuspilus]

LCMS/WELS Lutherans have a favorable attitude towards both Orthodox and Catholics.

I don't know how they feel about Orthodox, but I definitely would not call the WELS attitude toward Catholicism "favorable". 

Very much true. I remember in school our teachers spoke highly of Orthodoxy. As for Rome....well.....not so much

PP

[Peter J]

LCMS/WELS Lutherans have a favorable attitude towards both Orthodox and Catholics.

I don't know how they feel about Orthodox, but I definitely would not call the WELS attitude toward Catholicism "favorable". 

Very much true. I remember in school our teachers spoke highly of Orthodoxy. As for Rome....well.....not so much

PP

Oh, were you WELS? I've never been Lutheran at all, but I know when Catholics talk about how "Anti-Catholicism is still alive and well" (no pun intended) WELS is one of the best examples to cite.

[primuspilus]

Missouri actually. however they're pretty anti-rome.

[Peter J]

Missouri actually. however they're pretty anti-rome.

Gotcha.

[Peter J]

I'm pretty sure that the argumentation in tracts like the Death Cookie one are air tight...

HA! One of my favorites. That along with the Jack Chick tract on Dungeons and Dragons: http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.ASP

That tract must be the best Christmas present that D&D people ever got, b/c it just makes criticism of D&D look fanatical.

[ialmisry]

LCMS/WELS Lutherans have a favorable attitude towards both Orthodox and Catholics.

I don't know how they feel about Orthodox, but I definitely would not call the WELS attitude toward Catholicism "favorable". 

In the ALC we never heard of the Orthodox, and not such big fans of the Vatican (which was returned in kind: I recall on Relevant Radio and anti-Luther tract put out in the '50s, or was it the 30's?).  That last thing was changing a bit when I left (I used to be on the ecumenical meetings with the local Vatican parishes  ).

[akimori makoto]

LCMS/WELS Lutherans have a favorable attitude towards both Orthodox and Catholics.

I don't know how they feel about Orthodox, but I definitely would not call the WELS attitude toward Catholicism "favorable". 

In the ALC we never heard of the Orthodox, and not such big fans of the Vatican (which was returned in kind: I recall on Relevant Radio and anti-Luther tract put out in the '50s, or was it the 30's?).  That last thing was changing a bit when I left (I used to be on the ecumenical meetings with the local Vatican parishes  ).

Isa, can you please explain to me how an Arab ended up Lutheran in the first place?

[primuspilus]

LCMS/WELS Lutherans have a favorable attitude towards both Orthodox and Catholics.

I don't know how they feel about Orthodox, but I definitely would not call the WELS attitude toward Catholicism "favorable". 

In the ALC we never heard of the Orthodox, and not such big fans of the Vatican (which was returned in kind: I recall on Relevant Radio and anti-Luther tract put out in the '50s, or was it the 30's?).  That last thing was changing a bit when I left (I used to be on the ecumenical meetings with the local Vatican parishes  ).

Isa, can you please explain to me how an Arab ended up Lutheran in the first place?

THAT is a fantastic question.....I immidately though, "wow, that makes sence like an Eskimo Muslim......"

PP

[Luckster]

LCMS/WELS Lutherans have a favorable attitude towards both Orthodox and Catholics.

I don't know how they feel about Orthodox, but I definitely would not call the WELS attitude toward Catholicism "favorable". 

At least the LCMS I grew up with and the LCMS university I attended (which had a strong liturgical-focused Pre-Sem program) had a favorable attitude towards Catholic rubrics, not so much its theology.

The Two Faces of Rome

[Ignatius II]

It's ironic that many indepedent Baptists Churches don't consider many other Baptist churches Baptist either.   I have definitely heard many times the Catholic vs. Christian statement.  I think I can safely say in most cases "Orthodox" are included n that grouping as well. Most Fundamentalists are just not as familiar with the Eastern Orthodox faith. 

In regard to the silly Jack Chick tracts, when you see them at a laundromat, grocery or another public place, why not replace them with some Catholic or Orthodox literature. Seems fair to me.

[Peter J]

The Two Faces of Rome

Excuse me for responding to a 2-month old message, but that's a good video. I wonder if someone could make a "Two Faces of Orthodoxy" video? That would be interesting.

[truthseeker32]

There is a proselyting that has found its way into my home town in the last few years that claims a true Christian is one who accepts a specific gospel. According to this group, one must believe they are saved by grace in an event, once saved always saved sort of way. Accordingly, anyone that believes in something beyond this, in their view, is not a Christian.

[JamesR]

"Innovations" is a loaded word, but Orthodox obviously have problems with Catholic teachings. Why is it surprising that Protestants do too?

Imagine you had a twin brother. You both grew up with each other and always looked out for each other. Now, somewhere along the line, your has an argument with you and decides to go about life on his own without you. And a few years go by, and you happen to run into some random kids on the block, and they keep bashing your brother, telling you how horrible he is, telling you his problems etc. While they may be right about his problems, would they really have a right to point them out when they barely know him and never grew up with him? No. You as the brother would want to be the one to correct him; not some random kids.

[alanscott]

"Innovations" is a loaded word, but Orthodox obviously have problems with Catholic teachings. Why is it surprising that Protestants do too?

Imagine you had a twin brother. You both grew up with each other and always looked out for each other. Now, somewhere along the line, your has an argument with you and decides to go about life on his own without you. And a few years go by, and you happen to run into some random kids on the block, and they keep bashing your brother, telling you how horrible he is, telling you his problems etc. While they may be right about his problems, would they really have a right to point them out when they barely know him and never grew up with him? No. You as the brother would want to be the one to correct him; not some random kids.

A clever analogy to be sure JamesR. I have said before with all sincerity you are an intelligent well spoken young man of Christ. I mean that with utmost respect.

To challenge your view though could we not say there was one family named The Orthodox. Then due to irreconcilable differences this family separated and a second family named Catholic was formed. That family due to tragic circumstances separated and a third family named Protestant was formed? I’ll stop the family tree there as to go further would make a ridiculously long post! 

My point being that any Protestant ‘bashing’ a Catholic (not very Christian behavior IMHO and I doubt our Lord is pleased when this happens) is not really some random kid. Ugly red headed step brother perhaps?    All kidding aside I would consider say an atheist or Muslim that bash us all the ‘random kid’. Have Protestants not separated from Catholicism as Catholics separated from Orthodoxy? I understand any Orthodox view point that would see Catholic and/or Protestant as brothers gone astray but are we not still brothers in Christ?

In that way perhaps we can find some understanding within our differences and Protestants (as well as Orthodox and Catholic) can stop ‘bashing’ each other and differences can remain just that. Better yet perhaps through understanding differences some may begin to see things differently and come closer to Truth. IDK just thinking out loud here as Protestants ‘bash’ other Protestants too. I just came from a family reunion to which I was accused of being too ‘hung up’ on theology and doctrine. My aunt (non denominational - sola fide) was not really bashing me but considers me as a Wesleyan with interest and respect to Orthodoxy to be a ‘works righteousness’ Christian. Without understanding there is often a closed mind and I could not even explain that I believe Grace is freely given to all and that our works do not earn Grace but simply manifest God’s Grace into reality.

It is easier to witness to a brother than some random kid. You know what I mean? 

[Peter J]

"Innovations" is a loaded word, but Orthodox obviously have problems with Catholic teachings. Why is it surprising that Protestants do too?

Imagine you had a twin brother. You both grew up with each other and always looked out for each other. Now, somewhere along the line, your has an argument with you and decides to go about life on his own without you. And a few years go by, and you happen to run into some random kids on the block, and they keep bashing your brother, telling you how horrible he is, telling you his problems etc. While they may be right about his problems, would they really have a right to point them out when they barely know him and never grew up with him? No. You as the brother would want to be the one to correct him; not some random kids.

Hi James. I can see some value in your analogy. In fact, I don't think there's anything wrong with the analogy in-and-of-itself; but it does seem very weak when I look at it in light of my experiences with Orthodox -- e.g. when you guys criticize us for our Westernness.

Grant my take on the analogy is subjective; maybe others will like it more than I.

[Anastasia1]

LCMS/WELS Lutherans have a favorable attitude towards both Orthodox and Catholics.

I don't know how they feel about Orthodox, but I definitely would not call the WELS attitude toward Catholicism "favorable". 

In the ALC we never heard of the Orthodox, and not such big fans of the Vatican (which was returned in kind: I recall on Relevant Radio and anti-Luther tract put out in the '50s, or was it the 30's?).  That last thing was changing a bit when I left (I used to be on the ecumenical meetings with the local Vatican parishes  ).

Isa, can you please explain to me how an Arab ended up Lutheran in the first place?

THAT is a fantastic question.....I immidately though, "wow, that makes sence like an Eskimo Muslim......"

PP

Not that there is anything wrong about an Eskimo Muslim except that his/her theology is flawed and salvation endangered, so the same thing as any other Muslim.

[Anastasia1]

This whole division seems like a cultural comparison/schism-break up re-enforcement of us vs. them. Do they believe in Christ and follow Him? Catholic or other, that is a fundamental trait of a Christian.

I saw a video where someone who did not believe in Christ as savior/messiah/divine said that he could theoretically call himself a Christian because he followed the teachings of Christ.

[ignatius]

I think for many Protestants... the 5 distinctions of a 'true' Christian would be their Doctrine of the 5 Solas... which neither Catholics nor Orthodox can embrace whole cloth.

Failing to fit these narrowly defined definition of what a 'true' Christian is creates the Protestant label that Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox are defacto foreign religions to their brand of Christianity.

After long discussions with Calvinists... I don't actually believe either of us worship the same God. Their vision of God is so at odds with my own... that I fail to see where we are one under the same God.

[Peter J]

LCMS/WELS Lutherans have a favorable attitude towards both Orthodox and Catholics.

I don't know how they feel about Orthodox, but I definitely would not call the WELS attitude toward Catholicism "favorable". 

In the ALC we never heard of the Orthodox, and not such big fans of the Vatican (which was returned in kind: I recall on Relevant Radio and anti-Luther tract put out in the '50s, or was it the 30's?).  That last thing was changing a bit when I left (I used to be on the ecumenical meetings with the local Vatican parishes  ).

Isa, can you please explain to me how an Arab ended up Lutheran in the first place?

THAT is a fantastic question.....I immidately though, "wow, that makes sence like an Eskimo Muslim......"

PP

Not that there is anything wrong about an Eskimo Muslim except that his/her theology is flawed and salvation endangered, so the same thing as any other Muslim.

You'll have excuse PP, he's seen too many Starburst commercials.

[Kerdy]

I have to admit, growing up Protestant, there are some very harsh feelings toward the Catholic Church.  The only reason I can believe this is the case is held over angst from the reformation which turned stale and festered into vitriol.  As I became a teen, I met some Catholics and learned they are normal people, not some cult like we were led to believe.  Once grown, the Catholics I met (practicing) were wonderful people for whom I have become very fond.  After becoming Orthodox, I have a new level of respect for the Catholic Church, even if I disagree with her teachings.

The reason Protestants (i.e., Christians) have such a problem with Catholics, in my opinion, is ignorance.  Not stupidity, they simply don’t understand their own history.  I tried very hard to rationalize into becoming Catholic, I liked so much about Catholicism, but I simply was unable to accept everything they taught.

EDIT:  For the record, Catholics are Christian, but not all Christians are Catholic.

[Anastasia1]

Thank God I grew up around normal, healthy, intelligent Protestants and not some anti-Catholic/Catholicism types that spew wrong information about the Christianity of many Catholics.

[OrthoMEX]

speaking of anti catholic protestants there is a show called frances and freinds its a live call in show and they routinly say catholism is a cult, that the mass is evil etc. the show is on sonlife brodcasting maybe someone should call them ask what they think of Orthodoxy.

[Kerdy]

speaking of anti catholic protestants there is a show called frances and freinds its a live call in show and they routinly say catholism is a cult, that the mass is evil etc. the show is on sonlife brodcasting maybe someone should call them ask what they think of Orthodoxy.

Or ask them to actually support their claims instead of just tossing around accusations.

[Nephi]

I've unfortunately been around a lot of the "Catholics aren't Christian" crowd. Not all, but many.

[Cognomen]

I've unfortunately been around a lot of the "Catholics aren't Christian" crowd. Not all, but many.

Sorry to hear that.  I've managed to stay away from them my entire life.

[Nephi]

I've unfortunately been around a lot of the "Catholics aren't Christian" crowd. Not all, but many.

Sorry to hear that.  I've managed to stay away from them my entire life.

Lucky.

[Cognomen]

The reason Protestants (i.e., Christians) have such a problem with Catholics, in my opinion, is ignorance.  Not stupidity, they simply don’t understand their own history.

Maybe understanding a bit of their own history is what turned them away from the RCC in the first place.

[Cognomen]

I've unfortunately been around a lot of the "Catholics aren't Christian" crowd. Not all, but many.

Sorry to hear that.  I've managed to stay away from them my entire life.

Lucky.

Not always.  Cities have crime people in them. 

[ialmisry]

LCMS/WELS Lutherans have a favorable attitude towards both Orthodox and Catholics.

I don't know how they feel about Orthodox, but I definitely would not call the WELS attitude toward Catholicism "favorable".  

In the ALC we never heard of the Orthodox, and not such big fans of the Vatican (which was returned in kind: I recall on Relevant Radio and anti-Luther tract put out in the '50s, or was it the 30's?).  That last thing was changing a bit when I left (I used to be on the ecumenical meetings with the local Vatican parishes  ).

Isa, can you please explain to me how an Arab ended up Lutheran in the first place?

THAT is a fantastic question.....I immidately though, "wow, that makes sence like an Eskimo Muslim......"

Didn't see this before.

Actually, there is a number: the German Empire set up missions in the Middle East that were continued by their co-religionists, for instance.  There is an Arab Lutheran Church in Jerusalem
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutheran_Church_of_the_Redeemer,_Jerusalem
in Chicago
http://www.steliaschicago.org/
and elsewhere:

The ELCA currently has 3 Arab and Middle Eastern Congregations. At present, there are 7 Arab and Middle Eastern pastors

http://www.elca.org/Growing-In-Faith/Ministry/Multicultural-Ministries/Ethnic-Ministries/Arab-and-Middle-Eastern.aspx
http://www.elca.org/Growing-In-Faith/Ministry/Multicultural-Ministries/Ethnic-Associations/Association-of-Lutherans-of-Arab-and-Middle-Eastern-Heritage.aspx
including Brooklyn
http://www.elca.org/ELCA/Search/Find-a-Congregation.aspx#&&congrno=4nbj6uoxRQTHtU%2bqbQOdAqbo9O078PfwjcwgpQ%3d%3d
where I just went on pilgrimage (not to Salaamah, but to St. Nicholas Antiochian Cathedral, and to the original, St. Raphael's Cathedral, site of the first Orthodox consecration outside of the Old World, which still stands but is occupied by a Spanish Baptist congregation since the Orthodox moved to the present site. Btw, the neighborhood is still Arab, largely Yemeni to judge by the people I met. It was not the first Arab neighborhood in New York, however, and the site of the first Arab Orthodox Church: that was at 77 Washington, Manhattan, literally five minutes, past Holy Trinity Episcopal (one time practically the American Equivalent of Westminster Abbey) to Wall Street NYSE and Federal Hall, site of the establishment of the present US Government.  Instead of going East from 77 Washington, going North the same distance would land you at the World Trade Center Site: the old Arab Christian Neighborhood, Little Syria, was demolished to erect the Twin Towers, the cornerstone of the old Maronite Church was found amongst the 9/11 rubble.  Ironic

Much of Little Syria was demolished in the 1940s to allow construction of entrance ramps to the Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel. What was left was bulldozed two decades later to make way for the World Trade Center.

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/01/little-syria-now-tiny-syria-finds-new-advocates/
there's a move to save "Tiny Syria," all that remains of Little Syria. http://www.facebook.com/groups/savewashingtonstreet/)


That's not how I got there though (but I did worship at the Church of the Redeemer when I was in Jerusalem for the first time, less than a year before I embraced Orthodoxy), which was by intermarriage of my ancestors. They say my great mother was killed when her granddaughter, my god-mother, was baptized Lutheran.

Btw, when I went to a school run by a congregation of the Vatican's, I would be asked "I thought you're not Christian."  "No, I'm not Catholic,"  I would reply.  "Well, then you're not Christian," would be their reply.  Different perspective.

In my Lutheran parish, we said "I believe in the Christian Church," never "in the Catholic Church," always "One, Holy, Christian and Apostolic Church."  And the sole exposure I had to the Orthodox was a side mention in our catechism, in the section on Church History (which was not required reading IIRC, but I read it anyways), it said something about the Greek Church breaking off from "the Catholic church."

[Peter J]

speaking of anti catholic protestants there is a show called frances and freinds its a live call in show and they routinly say catholism is a cult, that the mass is evil etc. the show is on sonlife brodcasting maybe someone should call them ask what they think of Orthodoxy.

I had never heard of "Frances And Friends" before, so I googled it. It's associated with Jimmy Swaggart Ministries ("Frances" is Frances Swaggart, Jimmy's wife). I don't think I need to know much more about it than that.

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