Luckster
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« on: May 01, 2012, 03:08:34 PM » |
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During my college tenure, I visited a Christian forum for college-aged students. It was funded by the SBC. One year the most discussed topic was "Catholic vs Christian". This OC.net thread reminded me of that old discussion. Despite being raised around Protestants my whole life, I'll never understand the logic that Protestant Evangelicals/Baptists, etc are "Christian" (which means Evangelical or, more broadly, non-Catholic) and that Catholics are not Christian. Orthodox obviously have problems with Catholic innovations, but what's up with Protestant audacity to make such statements? Of course, I've always believed that Evangelicals, and most of Protestantism in general, has gone off the deep end in recent years ( Example A). I'm do feel a need to defend Catholicism in those instances. Catholics, after all, are our wayward brother. We are our brother's keeper. |
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Asteriktos
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« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2012, 03:13:52 PM » |
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You pick avatars well. There once was a poster with the name Acolyte who used that avatar. Acolyte was none other than the banned Matthew777 under a new name. He was banned because his gloriosity of thought outshined everyone, and the mods and admins became jealous of him. They banished him to the outer interwebs, to scrape by on meager theological table scraps from the other Orthodox web forums (which are named after trivial things like food you'd get at a ballpark). Can you fill Matthew's shoes?  |
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Jason.Wike
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« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2012, 03:15:05 PM » |
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I never heard of this "Catholics are not Christian" stuff until I worked with Hispanic Catholics. That's what I found weirdest about it, Catholics insisting that its different from "Christian" by which they really meant Protestant.
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If you give up pride of place for yourself to God, you will find your soul and eternity.. if you insist on putting yourself before God you will loose yourself eternally.
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Jason.Wike
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« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2012, 03:16:49 PM » |
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Oh geez I just looked at that link... [Removed really mean stuff]
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« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 03:20:41 PM by Jason.Wike »
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If you give up pride of place for yourself to God, you will find your soul and eternity.. if you insist on putting yourself before God you will loose yourself eternally.
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Luckster
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« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2012, 03:23:54 PM » |
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I never heard of this "Catholics are not Christian" stuff until I worked with Hispanic Catholics. That's what I found weirdest about it, Catholics insisting that its different from "Christian" by which they really meant Protestant.
Very true, it does go both ways in some cases. |
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Ortho_cat
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« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2012, 03:36:21 PM » |
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It was a common thought in the Evangelical circles in which I was raised that Catholics are Catholics, and not Christians.
The idea is that Catholicism has distorted the true meaning of Christianity so much, by its additions and accretions that it is no longer recongizable Christianity, as the Evangelicals understand it to mean. (Note it is also common to lump Orthodox and Catholic together as "Catholic" with a different flavor, i.e. non-Christian people of different stripes)
edit: This understanding as I have described was perpetuated en masse through Jack Chick tracts in the 80's and 90's (perhaps still are today).
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« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 03:38:54 PM by Ortho_cat »
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Papist
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« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2012, 04:15:38 PM » |
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Whenever I run into a Catholic who doesn't think that Catholics are supposed to call themselves Christians, I ask them what RCIA stands for.
I also ask, "What does the word 'Christian' mean?"
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« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 04:16:14 PM by Papist »
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"The only-begotten Son of God, wanting us to be partakers of his divinity, assumed our human nature so that, having become man, he might make men gods." - St. Thomas Aquinas
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Luckster
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« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2012, 04:29:15 PM » |
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edit: This understanding as I have described was perpetuated en masse through Jack Chick tracts in the 80's and 90's (perhaps still are today).
You'd be right. LinkIn Egypt, the "IHS" stood for their gods, Isis, Horus, and Seb. Seriously. |
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biro
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Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου
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« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2012, 04:38:38 PM » |
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I always got a laugh - and a shudder - when I found a Chick track at the laundromat or a public phone case. Because those are the places you go for great theological reading.
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phthalyl.podomatic.com
the-cornet.blogspot.com
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podkarpatska
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« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2012, 04:41:04 PM » |
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I always got a laugh - and a shudder - when I found a Chick track at the laundromat or a public phone case. Because those are the places you go for great theological reading.
add bus station rest rooms to the list.... |
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JamesRottnek
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« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2012, 04:45:35 PM » |
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Clearly it is because Catholics are damned to Hell for having no faith in Jesus and instead worshiping Mary while they engage in their magical superstitions.
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I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice. Can you guess what it is?
The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.
American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.
Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
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Ortho_cat
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« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2012, 04:54:45 PM » |
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Clearly it is because Catholics are damned to Hell for having no faith in Jesus and instead worshiping Mary while they engage in their magical superstitions.
you must have read the chick tract!  |
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Asteriktos
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« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2012, 05:02:32 PM » |
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I'm pretty sure that the argumentation in tracts like the Death Cookie one are air tight... |
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JamesR
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« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2012, 05:10:11 PM » |
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*Sigh* this irritates me so much. I was constantly surrounded by this attitude when I was a Protestant. You have the constant questions, articles and comments like 'Are Catholics Christians?' or there is a difference between Christianity and Catholicism. Pure BS. As if some Evangelical/Protestants actually know what a Christian is and are in any position to accuse. First remove the log from their own eyes before they start to pick at the speck in the Roman Catholic Church's eyes. Protestants are the most intolerant of all forms of Christianity. I hate seeing them pick on Roman Catholics the way they do; even though the Eastern Orthodox Church has problems with the Roman Catholic Church, I still do not like Protestants bashing Roman Catholics; only we can do that. The Roman Catholic Church is like our little rebellious brother trying to make it on his own; he may have his many faults and mistakes, but if anyone is going to point them out, discipline and scold him, it is going to be us, not some random stranger.
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"'Blessed are the peacemakers' For those are peacemakers in themselves who, in conquering and subjecting to reason all the motions of their souls and having their carnal desires tamed, have become in themselves a Kingdom of God."-St. Augustine of Hippo
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NMHS
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« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2012, 10:53:51 PM » |
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I never heard of this "Catholics are not Christian" stuff until I worked with Hispanic Catholics. That's what I found weirdest about it, Catholics insisting that its different from "Christian" by which they really meant Protestant.
Funny, my wife is Hispanic and Roman Catholic and she said the same thing years ago. She was Catholic and not Christian...........  Thank goodness she doesn't have that viewpoint anymore |
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Maximum Bob
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« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2012, 12:49:08 AM » |
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My wife grew up Roman Catholic and in the area she was from that was the Catholic position, not the Protestant position as far as I could tell, in that area anyway.
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Prov. 3: 5-6 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths.
Psalm 37:23 The Lord guides a man safely in the way he should go.
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stanley123
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« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2012, 01:39:46 AM » |
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I never heard of this "Catholics are not Christian" stuff until I worked with Hispanic Catholics. That's what I found weirdest about it, Catholics insisting that its different from "Christian" by which they really meant Protestant.
Funny, my wife is Hispanic and Roman Catholic and she said the same thing years ago. She was Catholic and not Christian........... Thank goodness she doesn't have that viewpoint anymore It's kind of a joke. If someone asks me if I am a Christian, I always say: No, I'm a Catholic. |
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jmbejdl
Count-Palatine James the Spurious of Giggleswick on the Naze
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« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2012, 03:49:06 AM » |
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I never heard of this "Catholics are not Christian" stuff until I worked with Hispanic Catholics. That's what I found weirdest about it, Catholics insisting that its different from "Christian" by which they really meant Protestant.
Funny, my wife is Hispanic and Roman Catholic and she said the same thing years ago. She was Catholic and not Christian........... Thank goodness she doesn't have that viewpoint anymore I heard exactly the same thing from a Romanian colleague in my time doing charity work out there. She said to me 'You're not a Christian are you?' and seemed to think she wasn't because she was an RC. On further interrogation it turned out that she was using the English word Christian in much the same way as we'd use Protestant (only more so - she really meant Pentecostals, Seventh Day Adventists, JWs etc. - pocaiti would be how the Romanians would refer to them) At the time I was Protestant but not one of them so I found it decidedly odd. |
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We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos
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Luckster
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« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2012, 12:56:29 PM » |
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As if some Evangelical/Protestants actually know what a Christian is and are in any position to accuse. First remove the log from their own eyes before they start to pick at the speck in the Roman Catholic Church's eyes. Protestants are the most intolerant of all forms of Christianity.
We should also be careful not to lump all the Protestants together. LCMS/WELS Lutherans have a favorable attitude towards both Orthodox and Catholics. Because my dad is LCMS and I attended an LCMS university, the general opinion of Catholicism is that it has done a good job keeping the faith intact, but allowed terrible abuses and extra-biblical teachings to dilute it. The same attitude is shared on Orthodoxy, except without the abuses. Otherwise I agree with you. |
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Doubting Thomas
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« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2012, 03:52:44 PM » |
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You pick avatars well. There once was a poster with the name Acolyte who used that avatar. Acolyte was none other than the banned Matthew777 under a new name. He was banned because his gloriosity of thought outshined everyone, and the mods and admins became jealous of him. They banished him to the outer interwebs, to scrape by on meager theological table scraps from the other Orthodox web forums (which are named after trivial things like food you'd get at a ballpark). Can you fill Matthew's shoes? Ah, good ol' Matthew777--I recall having some fun "discussions" on this message board with him a few years ago.  |
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"My Lord and My God!"--Doubting Thomas, AD 33
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alanscott
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« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2012, 01:16:17 PM » |
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I have been taught to stand arm in arm next to all who proclaim Jesus Christ as the Son of God, accept the Trinity, the Apostle and Nicene Creed as a brother or sister in Christ. This despite any differences we have regardless of how significant.
Personally, I believe that no one should turn away from Truth as has been revealed to them, to which we are to offer such truth to others as God commands, yet, without judgment of those that seek God in a different way from our own.
I have heard many great jokes, the most recent one on this site, and am aware of the differences between Catholic and ‘Protestants’. I have never heard anyone (to me personally) accuse them of not being Christian. I am well aware of the hateful things that are said and done amongst many though, and well, hate and judgment is not exactly what we all strive for is it.
Peace & Grace I say - I’m confident our Lord God will be fair in judging us all.
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There are heathens that live with more virtue than I. The devil himself believes Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Neither of these things truly makes me Christian.
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Valekhai
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« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2012, 01:49:55 PM » |
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I think part of the reason that you have Catholics drawing a distinction between "Catholic" and "Christian" is that Protestants don't typically refer to themselves as "Protestant." When asked what religion they belong to, a Protestant will likely say that they are Christian, but a Catholic will say that they are Catholic. Also, in my experience it is rare for Protestants to know what beliefs and teachings belong specifically to their particular denomination, so they tend to label all of their beliefs as "Christian." Catholics, on the other hand, tend to label things from the Catechism and Magisterium as specifically "Catholic" beliefs as opposed to broadly saying they are "Christian" teachings. I think that type of labeling puts a lot of Catholics in the mindset that Catholic is one thing and Christian is something else.
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primuspilus
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« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2012, 04:31:16 PM » |
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I'm pretty sure that the argumentation in tracts like the Death Cookie one are air tight... that tract was hilarious. Thank you for that. The Catholics are not Christians thing is really prevalent here in the Falwell Empire. It spreads to Orthodox, Anglicans, or anyone that does not share the magical prayer mentality. PP |
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"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great
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Nicene
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« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2012, 07:57:38 AM » |
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It seems merely an attempt to de legitimise Catholicism and I'm sure they would if they knew of orthodoxy say the same thing. What I think is disturbing is that this attitude has permaeted culture and people do it innocently not knowing what they are saying.
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Thank you.
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Timon
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« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2012, 10:16:13 AM » |
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The whole "Are Catholics Christians" discussion is was helped me discover Orthodoxy. Growing up Protestant, I always heard this nonsense too. I started looking up the answers for myself. I found out that they arent nearly as bad as my Protestant friends made them out to me. Turns out, they dont worship Mary! Or the Pope!! After I started reading about that, I naturally started inquiring more about the history of the Church. And eventually I found Orthodoxy. After studying a little Church history, these "weird" and "heretical" things that Catholics (even Orthodox) do really arent so strange after all.... This picture is simply amazing....  So bizarre. And although there are a few things about the RC I dont quite agree with, I still feel the need to defend them when theyre attacked by Protestants, especially these modern ones who really have no idea what theyre talking about. Why do Protestants think we have to explain everything we do to them? Arent they the ones who should be explaining themselves to us?? |
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Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved. — Chrysostom BLOG |
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primuspilus
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« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2012, 11:04:50 AM » |
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So the bible never mentions monks huh? The Bible never mentions men who voluntarily retreat from society, preaching the kingdom of god, living a spiritual life in the wilderness, living as an asetic? Really?
So John The Baptist is just a figment of our imaginations then......
Also, I guess the apostles ran around ordaining presbyters for fun and to "see new places"....ugh, Chick is a moron. Plain and simple.
PP
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"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great
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Timon
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« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2012, 11:35:17 AM » |
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So the bible never mentions monks huh? The Bible never mentions men who voluntarily retreat from society, preaching the kingdom of god, living a spiritual life in the wilderness, living as an asetic? Really?
So John The Baptist is just a figment of our imaginations then......
Also, I guess the apostles ran around ordaining presbyters for fun and to "see new places"....ugh, Chick is a moron. Plain and simple.
PP
Na dude. All that stuff was just made up by the RC church to "impress its followers." |
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Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved. — Chrysostom BLOG |
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primuspilus
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« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2012, 11:36:02 AM » |
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So the bible never mentions monks huh? The Bible never mentions men who voluntarily retreat from society, preaching the kingdom of god, living a spiritual life in the wilderness, living as an asetic? Really?
So John The Baptist is just a figment of our imaginations then......
Also, I guess the apostles ran around ordaining presbyters for fun and to "see new places"....ugh, Chick is a moron. Plain and simple.
PP
Na dude. All that stuff was just made up by the RC church to "impress its followers." Ah, of course...of course.....how foolish of me. PP |
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"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great
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Timon
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« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2012, 11:39:48 AM » |
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One thing that seems consistent is that protestants really hate candles. I was at a baptist church and they were knocking Catholics for lighting candles. I dont get it.
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Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved. — Chrysostom BLOG |
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primuspilus
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« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2012, 11:49:38 AM » |
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One thing that seems consistent is that protestants really hate candles. I was at a baptist church and they were knocking Catholics for lighting candles. I dont get it.
Its because of the C.... Baptists dont like the letter C....Catholics, Candles, Communists, Clinton......see? PP |
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"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great
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Timon
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« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2012, 11:59:46 AM » |
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One thing that seems consistent is that protestants really hate candles. I was at a baptist church and they were knocking Catholics for lighting candles. I dont get it.
Its because of the C.... Baptists dont like the letter C....Catholics, Candles, Communists, Clinton......see? PP That must also be why they hardly ever take communion. |
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Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved. — Chrysostom BLOG |
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LBK
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« Reply #31 on: May 09, 2012, 12:04:45 PM » |
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One thing that seems consistent is that protestants really hate candles. I was at a baptist church and they were knocking Catholics for lighting candles. I dont get it.
Its because of the C.... Baptists dont like the letter C....Catholics, Candles, Communists, Clinton......see? PP That must also be why they hardly ever take communion. ZING!!  |
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primuspilus
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« Reply #32 on: May 09, 2012, 12:32:35 PM » |
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One thing that seems consistent is that protestants really hate candles. I was at a baptist church and they were knocking Catholics for lighting candles. I dont get it.
Its because of the C.... Baptists dont like the letter C....Catholics, Candles, Communists, Clinton......see? PP That must also be why they hardly ever take communion. *applauds* |
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"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great
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Papist
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« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2012, 12:41:09 PM » |
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I'm pretty sure that the argumentation in tracts like the Death Cookie one are air tight... HA! One of my favorites. That along with the Jack Chick tract on Dungeons and Dragons: http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.ASP |
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"The only-begotten Son of God, wanting us to be partakers of his divinity, assumed our human nature so that, having become man, he might make men gods." - St. Thomas Aquinas
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primuspilus
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« Reply #34 on: May 09, 2012, 12:49:58 PM » |
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As a DM I can say that is the dumbest thing I have ever read. Everyone knows our secret cabal wears white robes...sheesh.... PP |
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"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great
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Papist
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« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2012, 12:57:04 PM » |
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As a DM I can say that is the dumbest thing I have ever read. Everyone knows our secret cabal wears white robes...sheesh.... PP My group of friends who played D and D loved to pull out this tract from time to time. We imagined the uber-uber-dork who might take it this seriously, but knew of no one like that. |
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"The only-begotten Son of God, wanting us to be partakers of his divinity, assumed our human nature so that, having become man, he might make men gods." - St. Thomas Aquinas
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Timon
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« Reply #36 on: May 09, 2012, 12:59:35 PM » |
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wow. both of these are powerful. |
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Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved. — Chrysostom BLOG |
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PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
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EXTERMINATE!
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« Reply #37 on: May 09, 2012, 01:14:02 PM » |
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One thing that seems consistent is that protestants really hate candles. I was at a baptist church and they were knocking Catholics for lighting candles. I dont get it.
Its because of the C.... Baptists dont like the letter C....Catholics, Candles, Communists, Clinton......see? PP They certainly have to like cookies. Everyone likes cookies. |
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Papist
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« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2012, 01:19:43 PM » |
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One thing that seems consistent is that protestants really hate candles. I was at a baptist church and they were knocking Catholics for lighting candles. I dont get it.
Its because of the C.... Baptists dont like the letter C....Catholics, Candles, Communists, Clinton......see? PP They certainly have to like cookies. Everyone likes cookies. Didn't you read the posts about the Chick Tracts? They hate cookies!!! |
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"The only-begotten Son of God, wanting us to be partakers of his divinity, assumed our human nature so that, having become man, he might make men gods." - St. Thomas Aquinas
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primuspilus
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« Reply #39 on: May 09, 2012, 01:21:17 PM » |
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One thing that seems consistent is that protestants really hate candles. I was at a baptist church and they were knocking Catholics for lighting candles. I dont get it.
Its because of the C.... Baptists dont like the letter C....Catholics, Candles, Communists, Clinton......see? PP They certainly have to like cookies. Everyone likes cookies. They call them baked treats PP |
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"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great
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stanley123
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Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,225
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« Reply #40 on: May 09, 2012, 02:52:01 PM » |
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One thing that seems consistent is that protestants really hate candles. I was at a baptist church and they were knocking Catholics for lighting candles. I dont get it.
Its because of the C.... Baptists dont like the letter C....Catholics, Candles, Communists, Clinton......see? PP They certainly have to like cookies. Everyone likes cookies. Didn't you read the posts about the Chick Tracts? They hate cookies!!! According to Chick, Catholics are not Christians and will not be saved, unless they repent and become Protestant. He has several publications on this theme. |
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Timon
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Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,422
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« Reply #41 on: May 09, 2012, 02:56:14 PM » |
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One thing that seems consistent is that protestants really hate candles. I was at a baptist church and they were knocking Catholics for lighting candles. I dont get it.
Its because of the C.... Baptists dont like the letter C....Catholics, Candles, Communists, Clinton......see? PP They certainly have to like cookies. Everyone likes cookies. Didn't you read the posts about the Chick Tracts? They hate cookies!!! According to Chick, Catholics are not Christians and will not be saved, unless they repent and become Protestant. He has several publications on this theme. Fortunately for you, the Christian-comic-book guy's opinion doesnt matter very much. |
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Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved. — Chrysostom BLOG |
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stanley123
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Faith: Catholic
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Posts: 3,225
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« Reply #42 on: May 09, 2012, 03:37:32 PM » |
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One thing that seems consistent is that protestants really hate candles. I was at a baptist church and they were knocking Catholics for lighting candles. I dont get it.
Its because of the C.... Baptists dont like the letter C....Catholics, Candles, Communists, Clinton......see? PP They certainly have to like cookies. Everyone likes cookies. Didn't you read the posts about the Chick Tracts? They hate cookies!!! According to Chick, Catholics are not Christians and will not be saved, unless they repent and become Protestant. He has several publications on this theme. Fortunately for you, the Christian-comic-book guy's opinion doesnt matter very much. True. See the Nightmare world of Jack T. Chick: http://www.catholic.com/documents/the-nightmare-world-of-jack-t-chick |
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Peter J
Formerly PJ
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Faith: Melkite (inquirer into Orthodoxy)
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« Reply #43 on: May 09, 2012, 05:57:59 PM » |
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Orthodox obviously have problems with Catholic innovations, but what's up with Protestant audacity to make such statements?
"Innovations" is a loaded word, but Orthodox obviously have problems with Catholic teachings. Why is it surprising that Protestants do too? |
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"Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better. I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America’s debt limit."
- Barack Obama
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Peter J
Formerly PJ
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Faith: Melkite (inquirer into Orthodoxy)
Posts: 4,922
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« Reply #44 on: May 09, 2012, 05:58:56 PM » |
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I never heard of this "Catholics are not Christian" stuff until I worked with Hispanic Catholics. That's what I found weirdest about it, Catholics insisting that its different from "Christian" by which they really meant Protestant.
Funny, my wife is Hispanic and Roman Catholic and she said the same thing years ago. She was Catholic and not Christian........... Thank goodness she doesn't have that viewpoint anymore I suspect that this wasn't much of an issue until Vatican II said things like "those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian". Before that, Catholics presumably had no problem calling themselves "Christian" since they could say that Orthodox and Protestants were non-Christian or questionably-Christian. |
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"Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better. I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America’s debt limit."
- Barack Obama
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