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Author Topic: "Catholic vs Christian"  (Read 4430 times) Average Rating: 0
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Luckster
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« on: May 01, 2012, 03:08:34 PM »

During my college tenure, I visited a Christian forum for college-aged students. It was funded by the SBC. One year the most discussed topic was "Catholic vs Christian".  This OC.net thread reminded me of that old discussion. Despite being raised around Protestants my whole life, I'll never understand the logic that Protestant Evangelicals/Baptists, etc are "Christian" (which means Evangelical or, more broadly, non-Catholic) and that Catholics are not Christian. Orthodox obviously have problems with Catholic innovations, but what's up with Protestant audacity to make such statements? Of course, I've always believed that Evangelicals, and most of Protestantism in general, has gone off the deep end in recent years (Example A).

I'm do feel a need to defend Catholicism in those instances. Catholics, after all, are our wayward brother. We are our brother's keeper.
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« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2012, 03:13:52 PM »

You pick avatars well. There once was a poster with the name Acolyte who used that avatar. Acolyte was none other than the banned Matthew777 under a new name. He was banned because his gloriosity of thought outshined everyone, and the mods and admins became jealous of him. They banished him to the outer interwebs, to scrape by on meager theological table scraps from the other Orthodox web forums (which are named after trivial things like food you'd get at a ballpark). Can you fill Matthew's shoes? Smiley
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« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2012, 03:15:05 PM »

I never heard of this "Catholics are not Christian" stuff until I worked with Hispanic Catholics. That's what I found weirdest about it, Catholics insisting that its different from "Christian" by which they really meant Protestant.
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« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2012, 03:16:49 PM »

Oh geez I just looked at that link... [Removed really mean stuff]
« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 03:20:41 PM by Jason.Wike » Logged
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« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2012, 03:23:54 PM »

I never heard of this "Catholics are not Christian" stuff until I worked with Hispanic Catholics. That's what I found weirdest about it, Catholics insisting that its different from "Christian" by which they really meant Protestant.
Very true, it does go both ways in some cases.
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« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2012, 03:36:21 PM »

It was a common thought in the Evangelical circles in which I was raised that Catholics are Catholics, and not Christians.

The idea is that Catholicism has distorted the true meaning of Christianity so much, by its additions and accretions that it is no longer recongizable Christianity, as the Evangelicals understand it to mean. (Note it is also common to lump Orthodox and Catholic together as "Catholic" with a different flavor, i.e. non-Christian people of different stripes)

edit: This understanding as I have described was perpetuated en masse through Jack Chick tracts in the 80's and 90's (perhaps still are today).
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« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2012, 04:15:38 PM »

Whenever I run into a Catholic who doesn't think that Catholics are supposed to call themselves Christians, I ask them what RCIA stands for.
I also ask, "What does the word 'Christian' mean?"
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« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2012, 04:29:15 PM »

edit: This understanding as I have described was perpetuated en masse through Jack Chick tracts in the 80's and 90's (perhaps still are today).

You'd be right. Link

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« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2012, 04:38:38 PM »

I always got a laugh - and a shudder - when I found a Chick track at the laundromat or a public phone case. Because those are the places you go for great theological reading.
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« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2012, 04:41:04 PM »

I always got a laugh - and a shudder - when I found a Chick track at the laundromat or a public phone case. Because those are the places you go for great theological reading.

add bus station rest rooms to the list....
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« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2012, 04:45:35 PM »

Clearly it is because Catholics are damned to Hell for having no faith in Jesus and instead worshiping Mary while they engage in their magical superstitions.
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« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2012, 04:54:45 PM »

Clearly it is because Catholics are damned to Hell for having no faith in Jesus and instead worshiping Mary while they engage in their magical superstitions.

you must have read the chick tract!  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2012, 05:02:32 PM »

I'm pretty sure that the argumentation in tracts like the Death Cookie one are air tight...
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« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2012, 05:10:11 PM »

*Sigh* this irritates me so much. I was constantly surrounded by this attitude when I was a Protestant. You have the constant questions, articles and comments like 'Are Catholics Christians?' or there is a difference between Christianity and Catholicism. Pure BS. As if some Evangelical/Protestants actually know what a Christian is and are in any position to accuse. First remove the log from their own eyes before they start to pick at the speck in the Roman Catholic Church's eyes. Protestants are the most intolerant of all forms of Christianity. I hate seeing them pick on Roman Catholics the way they do; even though the Eastern Orthodox Church has problems with the Roman Catholic Church, I still do not like Protestants bashing Roman Catholics; only we can do that. The Roman Catholic Church is like our little rebellious brother trying to make it on his own; he may have his many faults and mistakes, but if anyone is going to point them out, discipline and scold him, it is going to be us, not some random stranger.
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« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2012, 10:53:51 PM »

I never heard of this "Catholics are not Christian" stuff until I worked with Hispanic Catholics. That's what I found weirdest about it, Catholics insisting that its different from "Christian" by which they really meant Protestant.

Funny,  my wife is Hispanic and Roman Catholic and she said the same thing years ago.  She was Catholic and not Christian........... Huh

Thank goodness she doesn't have that viewpoint anymore
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« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2012, 12:49:08 AM »

My wife grew up Roman Catholic and in the area she was from that was the Catholic position, not the Protestant position as far as I could tell, in that area anyway.
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« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2012, 01:39:46 AM »

I never heard of this "Catholics are not Christian" stuff until I worked with Hispanic Catholics. That's what I found weirdest about it, Catholics insisting that its different from "Christian" by which they really meant Protestant.

Funny,  my wife is Hispanic and Roman Catholic and she said the same thing years ago.  She was Catholic and not Christian........... Huh

Thank goodness she doesn't have that viewpoint anymore
It's kind of a joke. If someone asks me if I am a Christian, I always say: No, I'm a Catholic.
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« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2012, 03:49:06 AM »

I never heard of this "Catholics are not Christian" stuff until I worked with Hispanic Catholics. That's what I found weirdest about it, Catholics insisting that its different from "Christian" by which they really meant Protestant.

Funny,  my wife is Hispanic and Roman Catholic and she said the same thing years ago.  She was Catholic and not Christian........... Huh

Thank goodness she doesn't have that viewpoint anymore

I heard exactly the same thing from a Romanian colleague in my time doing charity work out there. She said to me 'You're not a Christian are you?' and seemed to think she wasn't because she was an RC. On further interrogation it turned out that she was using the English word Christian in much the same way as we'd use Protestant (only more so - she really meant Pentecostals, Seventh Day Adventists, JWs etc. - pocaiti would be how the Romanians would refer to them) At the time I was Protestant but not one of them so I found it decidedly odd.
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« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2012, 12:56:29 PM »

As if some Evangelical/Protestants actually know what a Christian is and are in any position to accuse. First remove the log from their own eyes before they start to pick at the speck in the Roman Catholic Church's eyes. Protestants are the most intolerant of all forms of Christianity.

We should also be careful not to lump all the Protestants together. LCMS/WELS Lutherans have a favorable attitude towards both Orthodox and Catholics. Because my dad is LCMS and I attended an LCMS university, the general opinion of Catholicism is that it has done a good job keeping the faith intact, but allowed terrible abuses and extra-biblical teachings to dilute it. The same attitude is shared on Orthodoxy, except without the abuses. Otherwise I agree with you.
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« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2012, 03:52:44 PM »

You pick avatars well. There once was a poster with the name Acolyte who used that avatar. Acolyte was none other than the banned Matthew777 under a new name. He was banned because his gloriosity of thought outshined everyone, and the mods and admins became jealous of him. They banished him to the outer interwebs, to scrape by on meager theological table scraps from the other Orthodox web forums (which are named after trivial things like food you'd get at a ballpark). Can you fill Matthew's shoes? Smiley

Ah, good ol' Matthew777--I recall having some fun "discussions" on this message board with him a few years ago.  Cool
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« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2012, 01:16:17 PM »

I have been taught to stand arm in arm next to all who proclaim Jesus Christ as the Son of God, accept the Trinity, the Apostle and Nicene Creed as a brother or sister in Christ. This despite any differences we have regardless of how significant.

Personally, I believe that no one should turn away from Truth as has been revealed to them, to which we are to offer such truth to others as God commands, yet, without judgment of those that seek God in a different way from our own.

I have heard many great jokes, the most recent one on this site, and am aware of the differences between Catholic and ‘Protestants’. I have never heard anyone (to me personally) accuse them of not being Christian. I am well aware of the hateful things that are said and done amongst many though, and well, hate and judgment is not exactly what we all strive for is it.

Peace & Grace I say - I’m confident our Lord God will be fair in judging us all.
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« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2012, 01:49:55 PM »

I think part of the reason that you have Catholics drawing a distinction between "Catholic" and "Christian" is that Protestants don't typically refer to themselves as "Protestant." When asked what religion they belong to, a Protestant will likely say that they are Christian, but a Catholic will say that they are Catholic. Also, in my experience it is rare for Protestants to know what beliefs and teachings belong specifically to their particular denomination, so they tend to label all of their beliefs as "Christian." Catholics, on the other hand, tend to label things from the Catechism and Magisterium as specifically "Catholic" beliefs as opposed to broadly saying they are "Christian" teachings. I think that type of labeling puts a lot of Catholics in the mindset that Catholic is one thing and Christian is something else.
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« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2012, 04:31:16 PM »

Quote
I'm pretty sure that the argumentation in tracts like the Death Cookie one are air tight...
that tract was hilarious. Thank you for that.

The Catholics are not Christians thing is really prevalent here in the Falwell Empire. It spreads to Orthodox, Anglicans, or anyone that does not share the magical prayer mentality.

PP
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« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2012, 07:57:38 AM »

It seems merely an attempt to de legitimise Catholicism and I'm sure they would if they knew of orthodoxy say the same thing. What I think is disturbing is that this attitude has permaeted culture and people do it innocently not knowing what they are saying.
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« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2012, 10:16:13 AM »

The whole "Are Catholics Christians" discussion is was helped me discover Orthodoxy.  Growing up Protestant, I always heard this nonsense too.  I started looking up the answers for myself.  I found out that they arent nearly as bad as my Protestant friends made them out to me.  Turns out, they dont worship Mary! Or the Pope!!

After I started reading about that, I naturally started inquiring more about the history of the Church.  And eventually I found Orthodoxy.  After studying a little Church history, these "weird" and "heretical" things that Catholics (even Orthodox) do really arent so strange after all....

This picture is simply amazing....




So bizarre.

And although there are a few things about the RC I dont quite agree with, I still feel the need to defend them when theyre attacked by Protestants, especially these modern ones who really have no idea what theyre talking about.  Why do Protestants think we have to explain everything we do to them?  Arent they the ones who should be explaining themselves to us??

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« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2012, 11:04:50 AM »

So the bible never mentions monks huh? The Bible never mentions men who voluntarily retreat from society, preaching the kingdom of god, living a spiritual life in the wilderness, living as an asetic? Really?

So John The Baptist is just a figment of our imaginations then......

Also, I guess the apostles ran around ordaining presbyters for fun and to "see new places"....ugh, Chick is a moron. Plain and simple.

PP
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« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2012, 11:35:17 AM »

So the bible never mentions monks huh? The Bible never mentions men who voluntarily retreat from society, preaching the kingdom of god, living a spiritual life in the wilderness, living as an asetic? Really?

So John The Baptist is just a figment of our imaginations then......

Also, I guess the apostles ran around ordaining presbyters for fun and to "see new places"....ugh, Chick is a moron. Plain and simple.

PP

Na dude.  All that stuff was just made up by the RC church to "impress its followers."
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« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2012, 11:36:02 AM »

So the bible never mentions monks huh? The Bible never mentions men who voluntarily retreat from society, preaching the kingdom of god, living a spiritual life in the wilderness, living as an asetic? Really?

So John The Baptist is just a figment of our imaginations then......

Also, I guess the apostles ran around ordaining presbyters for fun and to "see new places"....ugh, Chick is a moron. Plain and simple.

PP

Na dude.  All that stuff was just made up by the RC church to "impress its followers."
Ah, of course...of course.....how foolish of me.

PP
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« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2012, 11:39:48 AM »

One thing that seems consistent is that protestants really hate candles.  I was at a baptist church and they were knocking Catholics for lighting candles.  I dont get it. 



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« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2012, 11:49:38 AM »

One thing that seems consistent is that protestants really hate candles.  I was at a baptist church and they were knocking Catholics for lighting candles.  I dont get it. 
Its because of the C....

Baptists dont like the letter C....Catholics, Candles, Communists, Clinton......see?

PP
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« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2012, 11:59:46 AM »

One thing that seems consistent is that protestants really hate candles.  I was at a baptist church and they were knocking Catholics for lighting candles.  I dont get it. 
Its because of the C....

Baptists dont like the letter C....Catholics, Candles, Communists, Clinton......see?

PP

That must also be why they hardly ever take communion.
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« Reply #31 on: May 09, 2012, 12:04:45 PM »

One thing that seems consistent is that protestants really hate candles.  I was at a baptist church and they were knocking Catholics for lighting candles.  I dont get it. 
Its because of the C....

Baptists dont like the letter C....Catholics, Candles, Communists, Clinton......see?

PP

That must also be why they hardly ever take communion.

ZING!!  laugh laugh
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« Reply #32 on: May 09, 2012, 12:32:35 PM »

One thing that seems consistent is that protestants really hate candles.  I was at a baptist church and they were knocking Catholics for lighting candles.  I dont get it. 
Its because of the C....

Baptists dont like the letter C....Catholics, Candles, Communists, Clinton......see?

PP

That must also be why they hardly ever take communion.
*applauds*
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« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2012, 12:41:09 PM »

I'm pretty sure that the argumentation in tracts like the Death Cookie one are air tight...
HA! One of my favorites. That along with the Jack Chick tract on Dungeons and Dragons: http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.ASP
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« Reply #34 on: May 09, 2012, 12:49:58 PM »

I'm pretty sure that the argumentation in tracts like the Death Cookie one are air tight...
HA! One of my favorites. That along with the Jack Chick tract on Dungeons and Dragons: http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.ASP
As a DM I can say that is the dumbest thing I have ever read. Everyone knows our secret cabal wears white robes...sheesh....

PP
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« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2012, 12:57:04 PM »

I'm pretty sure that the argumentation in tracts like the Death Cookie one are air tight...
HA! One of my favorites. That along with the Jack Chick tract on Dungeons and Dragons: http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.ASP
As a DM I can say that is the dumbest thing I have ever read. Everyone knows our secret cabal wears white robes...sheesh....

PP
My group of friends who played D and D loved to pull out this tract from time to time. We imagined the uber-uber-dork who might take it this seriously, but knew of no one like that.
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« Reply #36 on: May 09, 2012, 12:59:35 PM »

I'm pretty sure that the argumentation in tracts like the Death Cookie one are air tight...
HA! One of my favorites. That along with the Jack Chick tract on Dungeons and Dragons: http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.ASP

wow. both of these are powerful.
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« Reply #37 on: May 09, 2012, 01:14:02 PM »

One thing that seems consistent is that protestants really hate candles.  I was at a baptist church and they were knocking Catholics for lighting candles.  I dont get it. 
Its because of the C....

Baptists dont like the letter C....Catholics, Candles, Communists, Clinton......see?

PP
They certainly have to like cookies. Everyone likes cookies.
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« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2012, 01:19:43 PM »

One thing that seems consistent is that protestants really hate candles.  I was at a baptist church and they were knocking Catholics for lighting candles.  I dont get it. 
Its because of the C....

Baptists dont like the letter C....Catholics, Candles, Communists, Clinton......see?

PP
They certainly have to like cookies. Everyone likes cookies.
Didn't you read the posts about the Chick Tracts? They hate cookies!!!
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« Reply #39 on: May 09, 2012, 01:21:17 PM »

One thing that seems consistent is that protestants really hate candles.  I was at a baptist church and they were knocking Catholics for lighting candles.  I dont get it. 
Its because of the C....

Baptists dont like the letter C....Catholics, Candles, Communists, Clinton......see?

PP
They certainly have to like cookies. Everyone likes cookies.
They call them baked treats Smiley

PP
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« Reply #40 on: May 09, 2012, 02:52:01 PM »

One thing that seems consistent is that protestants really hate candles.  I was at a baptist church and they were knocking Catholics for lighting candles.  I dont get it. 
Its because of the C....

Baptists dont like the letter C....Catholics, Candles, Communists, Clinton......see?

PP
They certainly have to like cookies. Everyone likes cookies.
Didn't you read the posts about the Chick Tracts? They hate cookies!!!
According to Chick, Catholics are not Christians and will not be saved, unless they repent and become Protestant. He has several publications on this theme.
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« Reply #41 on: May 09, 2012, 02:56:14 PM »

One thing that seems consistent is that protestants really hate candles.  I was at a baptist church and they were knocking Catholics for lighting candles.  I dont get it. 
Its because of the C....

Baptists dont like the letter C....Catholics, Candles, Communists, Clinton......see?

PP
They certainly have to like cookies. Everyone likes cookies.
Didn't you read the posts about the Chick Tracts? They hate cookies!!!
According to Chick, Catholics are not Christians and will not be saved, unless they repent and become Protestant. He has several publications on this theme.

Fortunately for you, the Christian-comic-book guy's opinion doesnt matter very much.
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« Reply #42 on: May 09, 2012, 03:37:32 PM »

One thing that seems consistent is that protestants really hate candles.  I was at a baptist church and they were knocking Catholics for lighting candles.  I dont get it. 
Its because of the C....

Baptists dont like the letter C....Catholics, Candles, Communists, Clinton......see?

PP
They certainly have to like cookies. Everyone likes cookies.
Didn't you read the posts about the Chick Tracts? They hate cookies!!!
According to Chick, Catholics are not Christians and will not be saved, unless they repent and become Protestant. He has several publications on this theme.

Fortunately for you, the Christian-comic-book guy's opinion doesnt matter very much.
True. See the Nightmare world of Jack T. Chick:
http://www.catholic.com/documents/the-nightmare-world-of-jack-t-chick
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« Reply #43 on: May 09, 2012, 05:57:59 PM »

Orthodox obviously have problems with Catholic innovations, but what's up with Protestant audacity to make such statements?

"Innovations" is a loaded word, but Orthodox obviously have problems with Catholic teachings. Why is it surprising that Protestants do too?
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« Reply #44 on: May 09, 2012, 05:58:56 PM »

I never heard of this "Catholics are not Christian" stuff until I worked with Hispanic Catholics. That's what I found weirdest about it, Catholics insisting that its different from "Christian" by which they really meant Protestant.

Funny,  my wife is Hispanic and Roman Catholic and she said the same thing years ago.  She was Catholic and not Christian........... Huh

Thank goodness she doesn't have that viewpoint anymore

I suspect that this wasn't much of an issue until Vatican II said things like "those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian". Before that, Catholics presumably had no problem calling themselves "Christian" since they could say that Orthodox and Protestants were non-Christian or questionably-Christian.
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« Reply #45 on: May 09, 2012, 06:00:04 PM »

I think part of the reason that you have Catholics drawing a distinction between "Catholic" and "Christian" is that Protestants don't typically refer to themselves as "Protestant." When asked what religion they belong to, a Protestant will likely say that they are Christian, but a Catholic will say that they are Catholic. Also, in my experience it is rare for Protestants to know what beliefs and teachings belong specifically to their particular denomination, so they tend to label all of their beliefs as "Christian." Catholics, on the other hand, tend to label things from the Catechism and Magisterium as specifically "Catholic" beliefs as opposed to broadly saying they are "Christian" teachings. I think that type of labeling puts a lot of Catholics in the mindset that Catholic is one thing and Christian is something else.

Good point. Another thing worth noting is that when catholics -- in the general sense of Catholics, EOs, OOs, Anglicans, Lutherans, and a few smaller groups -- answer the question, they don't say "I'm catholic [in the general sense]", rather they would either say "I'm Christian" or (more likely) would specify EO, OO, Anglican etc.

Likewise, when protestants answer the question, they don't say "I'm protestant", rather they would either say "I'm Christian" or would specify Baptist, Presbyterian, Methodist, etc.
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« Reply #46 on: May 09, 2012, 06:23:32 PM »

LCMS/WELS Lutherans have a favorable attitude towards both Orthodox and Catholics.

I don't know how they feel about Orthodox, but I definitely would not call the WELS attitude toward Catholicism "favorable".  Shocked
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« Reply #47 on: May 10, 2012, 09:04:05 AM »

LCMS/WELS Lutherans have a favorable attitude towards both Orthodox and Catholics.

I don't know how they feel about Orthodox, but I definitely would not call the WELS attitude toward Catholicism "favorable".  Shocked
Very much true. I remember in school our teachers spoke highly of Orthodoxy. As for Rome....well.....not so much Smiley

PP
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« Reply #48 on: May 10, 2012, 09:37:50 AM »

LCMS/WELS Lutherans have a favorable attitude towards both Orthodox and Catholics.

I don't know how they feel about Orthodox, but I definitely would not call the WELS attitude toward Catholicism "favorable".  Shocked
Very much true. I remember in school our teachers spoke highly of Orthodoxy. As for Rome....well.....not so much Smiley

PP

Oh, were you WELS? I've never been Lutheran at all, but I know when Catholics talk about how "Anti-Catholicism is still alive and well" (no pun intended) WELS is one of the best examples to cite.
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« Reply #49 on: May 10, 2012, 10:03:47 AM »

Missouri actually. however they're pretty anti-rome.
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« Reply #50 on: May 10, 2012, 10:28:25 AM »

Missouri actually. however they're pretty anti-rome.

Gotcha.
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« Reply #51 on: May 10, 2012, 09:59:11 PM »

I'm pretty sure that the argumentation in tracts like the Death Cookie one are air tight...
HA! One of my favorites. That along with the Jack Chick tract on Dungeons and Dragons: http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.ASP

That tract must be the best Christmas present that D&D people ever got, b/c it just makes criticism of D&D look fanatical.
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« Reply #52 on: May 10, 2012, 11:18:43 PM »

LCMS/WELS Lutherans have a favorable attitude towards both Orthodox and Catholics.

I don't know how they feel about Orthodox, but I definitely would not call the WELS attitude toward Catholicism "favorable".  Shocked
In the ALC we never heard of the Orthodox, and not such big fans of the Vatican (which was returned in kind: I recall on Relevant Radio and anti-Luther tract put out in the '50s, or was it the 30's?).  That last thing was changing a bit when I left (I used to be on the ecumenical meetings with the local Vatican parishes  Shocked).
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« Reply #53 on: May 10, 2012, 11:59:18 PM »

LCMS/WELS Lutherans have a favorable attitude towards both Orthodox and Catholics.

I don't know how they feel about Orthodox, but I definitely would not call the WELS attitude toward Catholicism "favorable".  Shocked
In the ALC we never heard of the Orthodox, and not such big fans of the Vatican (which was returned in kind: I recall on Relevant Radio and anti-Luther tract put out in the '50s, or was it the 30's?).  That last thing was changing a bit when I left (I used to be on the ecumenical meetings with the local Vatican parishes  Shocked).

Isa, can you please explain to me how an Arab ended up Lutheran in the first place?
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« Reply #54 on: May 11, 2012, 03:46:09 PM »

LCMS/WELS Lutherans have a favorable attitude towards both Orthodox and Catholics.

I don't know how they feel about Orthodox, but I definitely would not call the WELS attitude toward Catholicism "favorable".  Shocked
In the ALC we never heard of the Orthodox, and not such big fans of the Vatican (which was returned in kind: I recall on Relevant Radio and anti-Luther tract put out in the '50s, or was it the 30's?).  That last thing was changing a bit when I left (I used to be on the ecumenical meetings with the local Vatican parishes  Shocked).

Isa, can you please explain to me how an Arab ended up Lutheran in the first place?
THAT is a fantastic question.....I immidately though, "wow, that makes sence like an Eskimo Muslim......"

PP
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« Reply #55 on: May 13, 2012, 07:34:55 PM »

LCMS/WELS Lutherans have a favorable attitude towards both Orthodox and Catholics.

I don't know how they feel about Orthodox, but I definitely would not call the WELS attitude toward Catholicism "favorable".  Shocked
At least the LCMS I grew up with and the LCMS university I attended (which had a strong liturgical-focused Pre-Sem program) had a favorable attitude towards Catholic rubrics, not so much its theology.

The Two Faces of Rome
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« Reply #56 on: May 31, 2012, 06:36:41 AM »

It's ironic that many indepedent Baptists Churches don't consider many other Baptist churches Baptist either.   I have definitely heard many times the Catholic vs. Christian statement.  I think I can safely say in most cases "Orthodox" are included n that grouping as well. Most Fundamentalists are just not as familiar with the Eastern Orthodox faith. 

In regard to the silly Jack Chick tracts, when you see them at a laundromat, grocery or another public place, why not replace them with some Catholic or Orthodox literature. Seems fair to me.
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« Reply #57 on: July 23, 2012, 10:56:49 AM »


Excuse me for responding to a 2-month old message, but that's a good video. I wonder if someone could make a "Two Faces of Orthodoxy" video? That would be interesting.
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« Reply #58 on: July 23, 2012, 03:00:29 PM »

There is a proselyting that has found its way into my home town in the last few years that claims a true Christian is one who accepts a specific gospel. According to this group, one must believe they are saved by grace in an event, once saved always saved sort of way. Accordingly, anyone that believes in something beyond this, in their view, is not a Christian.
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« Reply #59 on: July 23, 2012, 03:24:31 PM »

"Innovations" is a loaded word, but Orthodox obviously have problems with Catholic teachings. Why is it surprising that Protestants do too?

Imagine you had a twin brother. You both grew up with each other and always looked out for each other. Now, somewhere along the line, your has an argument with you and decides to go about life on his own without you. And a few years go by, and you happen to run into some random kids on the block, and they keep bashing your brother, telling you how horrible he is, telling you his problems etc. While they may be right about his problems, would they really have a right to point them out when they barely know him and never grew up with him? No. You as the brother would want to be the one to correct him; not some random kids.
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« Reply #60 on: July 24, 2012, 10:40:42 AM »

"Innovations" is a loaded word, but Orthodox obviously have problems with Catholic teachings. Why is it surprising that Protestants do too?

Imagine you had a twin brother. You both grew up with each other and always looked out for each other. Now, somewhere along the line, your has an argument with you and decides to go about life on his own without you. And a few years go by, and you happen to run into some random kids on the block, and they keep bashing your brother, telling you how horrible he is, telling you his problems etc. While they may be right about his problems, would they really have a right to point them out when they barely know him and never grew up with him? No. You as the brother would want to be the one to correct him; not some random kids.
A clever analogy to be sure JamesR. I have said before with all sincerity you are an intelligent well spoken young man of Christ. I mean that with utmost respect.

To challenge your view though could we not say there was one family named The Orthodox. Then due to irreconcilable differences this family separated and a second family named Catholic was formed. That family due to tragic circumstances separated and a third family named Protestant was formed? I’ll stop the family tree there as to go further would make a ridiculously long post!  Wink

My point being that any Protestant ‘bashing’ a Catholic (not very Christian behavior IMHO and I doubt our Lord is pleased when this happens) is not really some random kid. Ugly red headed step brother perhaps?  Cheesy  All kidding aside I would consider say an atheist or Muslim that bash us all the ‘random kid’. Have Protestants not separated from Catholicism as Catholics separated from Orthodoxy? I understand any Orthodox view point that would see Catholic and/or Protestant as brothers gone astray but are we not still brothers in Christ?

In that way perhaps we can find some understanding within our differences and Protestants (as well as Orthodox and Catholic) can stop ‘bashing’ each other and differences can remain just that. Better yet perhaps through understanding differences some may begin to see things differently and come closer to Truth. IDK just thinking out loud here as Protestants ‘bash’ other Protestants too. I just came from a family reunion to which I was accused of being too ‘hung up’ on theology and doctrine. My aunt (non denominational - sola fide) was not really bashing me but considers me as a Wesleyan with interest and respect to Orthodoxy to be a ‘works righteousness’ Christian. Without understanding there is often a closed mind and I could not even explain that I believe Grace is freely given to all and that our works do not earn Grace but simply manifest God’s Grace into reality.

It is easier to witness to a brother than some random kid. You know what I mean? 
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« Reply #61 on: July 24, 2012, 01:48:48 PM »

"Innovations" is a loaded word, but Orthodox obviously have problems with Catholic teachings. Why is it surprising that Protestants do too?

Imagine you had a twin brother. You both grew up with each other and always looked out for each other. Now, somewhere along the line, your has an argument with you and decides to go about life on his own without you. And a few years go by, and you happen to run into some random kids on the block, and they keep bashing your brother, telling you how horrible he is, telling you his problems etc. While they may be right about his problems, would they really have a right to point them out when they barely know him and never grew up with him? No. You as the brother would want to be the one to correct him; not some random kids.

Hi James. I can see some value in your analogy. In fact, I don't think there's anything wrong with the analogy in-and-of-itself; but it does seem very weak when I look at it in light of my experiences with Orthodox -- e.g. when you guys criticize us for our Westernness.

Grant my take on the analogy is subjective; maybe others will like it more than I.
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« Reply #62 on: July 24, 2012, 04:54:07 PM »

LCMS/WELS Lutherans have a favorable attitude towards both Orthodox and Catholics.

I don't know how they feel about Orthodox, but I definitely would not call the WELS attitude toward Catholicism "favorable".  Shocked
In the ALC we never heard of the Orthodox, and not such big fans of the Vatican (which was returned in kind: I recall on Relevant Radio and anti-Luther tract put out in the '50s, or was it the 30's?).  That last thing was changing a bit when I left (I used to be on the ecumenical meetings with the local Vatican parishes  Shocked).

Isa, can you please explain to me how an Arab ended up Lutheran in the first place?
THAT is a fantastic question.....I immidately though, "wow, that makes sence like an Eskimo Muslim......"

PP
Not that there is anything wrong about an Eskimo Muslim except that his/her theology is flawed and salvation endangered, so the same thing as any other Muslim.
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« Reply #63 on: July 24, 2012, 04:56:13 PM »

This whole division seems like a cultural comparison/schism-break up re-enforcement of us vs. them. Do they believe in Christ and follow Him? Catholic or other, that is a fundamental trait of a Christian.

I saw a video where someone who did not believe in Christ as savior/messiah/divine said that he could theoretically call himself a Christian because he followed the teachings of Christ.
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« Reply #64 on: July 24, 2012, 06:20:55 PM »

I think for many Protestants... the 5 distinctions of a 'true' Christian would be their Doctrine of the 5 Solas... which neither Catholics nor Orthodox can embrace whole cloth.

Failing to fit these narrowly defined definition of what a 'true' Christian is creates the Protestant label that Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox are defacto foreign religions to their brand of Christianity.

After long discussions with Calvinists... I don't actually believe either of us worship the same God. Their vision of God is so at odds with my own... that I fail to see where we are one under the same God.
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« Reply #65 on: July 24, 2012, 06:42:17 PM »

LCMS/WELS Lutherans have a favorable attitude towards both Orthodox and Catholics.

I don't know how they feel about Orthodox, but I definitely would not call the WELS attitude toward Catholicism "favorable".  Shocked
In the ALC we never heard of the Orthodox, and not such big fans of the Vatican (which was returned in kind: I recall on Relevant Radio and anti-Luther tract put out in the '50s, or was it the 30's?).  That last thing was changing a bit when I left (I used to be on the ecumenical meetings with the local Vatican parishes  Shocked).

Isa, can you please explain to me how an Arab ended up Lutheran in the first place?
THAT is a fantastic question.....I immidately though, "wow, that makes sence like an Eskimo Muslim......"

PP
Not that there is anything wrong about an Eskimo Muslim except that his/her theology is flawed and salvation endangered, so the same thing as any other Muslim.

You'll have excuse PP, he's seen too many Starburst commercials.
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« Reply #66 on: July 24, 2012, 07:19:20 PM »

I have to admit, growing up Protestant, there are some very harsh feelings toward the Catholic Church.  The only reason I can believe this is the case is held over angst from the reformation which turned stale and festered into vitriol.  As I became a teen, I met some Catholics and learned they are normal people, not some cult like we were led to believe.  Once grown, the Catholics I met (practicing) were wonderful people for whom I have become very fond.  After becoming Orthodox, I have a new level of respect for the Catholic Church, even if I disagree with her teachings.

The reason Protestants (i.e., Christians) have such a problem with Catholics, in my opinion, is ignorance.  Not stupidity, they simply don’t understand their own history.  I tried very hard to rationalize into becoming Catholic, I liked so much about Catholicism, but I simply was unable to accept everything they taught.

EDIT:  For the record, Catholics are Christian, but not all Christians are Catholic. Cheesy
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« Reply #67 on: July 28, 2012, 07:14:37 PM »

Thank God I grew up around normal, healthy, intelligent Protestants and not some anti-Catholic/Catholicism types that spew wrong information about the Christianity of many Catholics.
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« Reply #68 on: August 17, 2012, 11:02:20 AM »

speaking of anti catholic protestants there is a show called frances and freinds its a live call in show and they routinly say catholism is a cult, that the mass is evil etc. the show is on sonlife brodcasting maybe someone should call them ask what they think of Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #69 on: August 17, 2012, 11:06:10 AM »

speaking of anti catholic protestants there is a show called frances and freinds its a live call in show and they routinly say catholism is a cult, that the mass is evil etc. the show is on sonlife brodcasting maybe someone should call them ask what they think of Orthodoxy.
Or ask them to actually support their claims instead of just tossing around accusations.
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« Reply #70 on: August 17, 2012, 12:54:53 PM »

I've unfortunately been around a lot of the "Catholics aren't Christian" crowd. Not all, but many.
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« Reply #71 on: August 17, 2012, 01:01:36 PM »

I've unfortunately been around a lot of the "Catholics aren't Christian" crowd. Not all, but many.

Sorry to hear that.  I've managed to stay away from them my entire life.
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« Reply #72 on: August 17, 2012, 01:03:58 PM »

I've unfortunately been around a lot of the "Catholics aren't Christian" crowd. Not all, but many.

Sorry to hear that.  I've managed to stay away from them my entire life.

Lucky. Wink
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« Reply #73 on: August 17, 2012, 01:09:54 PM »

The reason Protestants (i.e., Christians) have such a problem with Catholics, in my opinion, is ignorance.  Not stupidity, they simply don’t understand their own history.

Maybe understanding a bit of their own history is what turned them away from the RCC in the first place.
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« Reply #74 on: August 17, 2012, 01:10:24 PM »

I've unfortunately been around a lot of the "Catholics aren't Christian" crowd. Not all, but many.

Sorry to hear that.  I've managed to stay away from them my entire life.

Lucky. Wink

Not always.  Cities have crime people in them.  Wink
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« Reply #75 on: August 17, 2012, 02:43:37 PM »

LCMS/WELS Lutherans have a favorable attitude towards both Orthodox and Catholics.

I don't know how they feel about Orthodox, but I definitely would not call the WELS attitude toward Catholicism "favorable".  Shocked
In the ALC we never heard of the Orthodox, and not such big fans of the Vatican (which was returned in kind: I recall on Relevant Radio and anti-Luther tract put out in the '50s, or was it the 30's?).  That last thing was changing a bit when I left (I used to be on the ecumenical meetings with the local Vatican parishes  Shocked).

Isa, can you please explain to me how an Arab ended up Lutheran in the first place?
THAT is a fantastic question.....I immidately though, "wow, that makes sence like an Eskimo Muslim......"
Didn't see this before.

Actually, there is a number: the German Empire set up missions in the Middle East that were continued by their co-religionists, for instance.  There is an Arab Lutheran Church in Jerusalem
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutheran_Church_of_the_Redeemer,_Jerusalem
in Chicago
http://www.steliaschicago.org/
and elsewhere:
Quote
The ELCA currently has 3 Arab and Middle Eastern Congregations. At present, there are 7 Arab and Middle Eastern pastors
http://www.elca.org/Growing-In-Faith/Ministry/Multicultural-Ministries/Ethnic-Ministries/Arab-and-Middle-Eastern.aspx
http://www.elca.org/Growing-In-Faith/Ministry/Multicultural-Ministries/Ethnic-Associations/Association-of-Lutherans-of-Arab-and-Middle-Eastern-Heritage.aspx
including Brooklyn
http://www.elca.org/ELCA/Search/Find-a-Congregation.aspx#&&congrno=4nbj6uoxRQTHtU%2bqbQOdAqbo9O078PfwjcwgpQ%3d%3d
where I just went on pilgrimage (not to Salaamah, but to St. Nicholas Antiochian Cathedral, and to the original, St. Raphael's Cathedral, site of the first Orthodox consecration outside of the Old World, which still stands but is occupied by a Spanish Baptist congregation since the Orthodox moved to the present site. Btw, the neighborhood is still Arab, largely Yemeni to judge by the people I met. It was not the first Arab neighborhood in New York, however, and the site of the first Arab Orthodox Church: that was at 77 Washington, Manhattan, literally five minutes, past Holy Trinity Episcopal (one time practically the American Equivalent of Westminster Abbey) to Wall Street NYSE and Federal Hall, site of the establishment of the present US Government.  Instead of going East from 77 Washington, going North the same distance would land you at the World Trade Center Site: the old Arab Christian Neighborhood, Little Syria, was demolished to erect the Twin Towers, the cornerstone of the old Maronite Church was found amongst the 9/11 rubble.  Ironic
Quote
Much of Little Syria was demolished in the 1940s to allow construction of entrance ramps to the Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel. What was left was bulldozed two decades later to make way for the World Trade Center.
http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/01/little-syria-now-tiny-syria-finds-new-advocates/
there's a move to save "Tiny Syria," all that remains of Little Syria. http://www.facebook.com/groups/savewashingtonstreet/)


That's not how I got there though (but I did worship at the Church of the Redeemer when I was in Jerusalem for the first time, less than a year before I embraced Orthodoxy), which was by intermarriage of my ancestors. They say my great mother was killed when her granddaughter, my god-mother, was baptized Lutheran.

Btw, when I went to a school run by a congregation of the Vatican's, I would be asked "I thought you're not Christian."  "No, I'm not Catholic,"  I would reply.  "Well, then you're not Christian," would be their reply.  Different perspective.

In my Lutheran parish, we said "I believe in the Christian Church," never "in the Catholic Church," always "One, Holy, Christian and Apostolic Church."  And the sole exposure I had to the Orthodox was a side mention in our catechism, in the section on Church History (which was not required reading IIRC, but I read it anyways), it said something about the Greek Church breaking off from "the Catholic church."
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 02:52:11 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #76 on: August 17, 2012, 03:08:37 PM »

speaking of anti catholic protestants there is a show called frances and freinds its a live call in show and they routinly say catholism is a cult, that the mass is evil etc. the show is on sonlife brodcasting maybe someone should call them ask what they think of Orthodoxy.

I had never heard of "Frances And Friends" before, so I googled it. It's associated with Jimmy Swaggart Ministries ("Frances" is Frances Swaggart, Jimmy's wife). I don't think I need to know much more about it than that.
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