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Author Topic: Is masturbation allowed?  (Read 11522 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #135 on: May 03, 2012, 01:59:46 PM »

Is masturbation allows for teenagers in the greek orthodox church. If not, why? Is it allowed when you are married.

Many Greek orthodox Christians don't believe it is wrong or a sin.

How can you speak for Greek Orthodox Christians when you are not one?

I know and have known many Greek orthodox Christians.

So you learn about Orthodox Christian Theology by watching My Big Fat Greek Wedding which is a satire on how Greek Orthodox Christians live and believe (e.g. Nia Vardalos makes fun of her ethnic heritage and faith)?

No.  I know and have known many Greek orthodox Christians.

Have they discussed masturbation with you?  That is a taboo subject in nearly every Greek Orthodox household; however, the topic of being taboo doesn't stop those from acting out on sexual fantasies via masturbation.  There are other taboo subjects; as I said, that doesn't stop people from practicing them.
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« Reply #136 on: May 03, 2012, 05:48:21 PM »

What a nice thing to say.  I'm glad we can acknowledge one another's stubbornness in peace.  I've known people like you also, people who add to the Scriptures.

I'm not adding to the Scriptures.

Yes, you are.  You said sexual lust is a sin.  Lust means "intense desire."  The Scripture never says that intense sexual desires are sinful.  Such desires are *sometimes* sinful (in sinful contexts) and sometimes holy (in holy contexts).  For instance, marriage involved intense sexual desires.  See Song of Solomon, both before and after the wedding.

See also common sense.  God have mercy.

Sexual lust is not a a sin per se.  All "sexual lust" means is "intense sexual desire."  There is is nothing wrong with our intense sexual desires when placed in the right context.

In a monogamous marriage, yes.  In marriage and hooking up with old flames on Facebook, no.

Scripture never says that sexual lust is only okay in marriage.  And in fact, Scripture joyously celebrates in beautiful song as two people of the opposite sex intensly long for one another in the Song of Solomon even before their wedding.

For instance, married people intensely desire one another and it isn't sinful.  Those who are pursuing marriage intensely desire one another also (typically), and it also isn't typically sinful (it is celebrated in Song in Scripture).  Ultimately sin is revealed to each heart.   If you think masturbation is a sin, then it may indeed be a sin for you.  But you are not the judge of everyone else, and neither am I.

Where is the bolded text quoted in your Scriptures?   Huh

You mean the Church's Scriptures, right? 

Either way... that teaching is found in Romans 2.  "For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.  They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."
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« Reply #137 on: May 03, 2012, 05:58:21 PM »

What a nice thing to say.  I'm glad we can acknowledge one another's stubbornness in peace.  I've known people like you also, people who add to the Scriptures.

I'm not adding to the Scriptures.

Yes, you are.  You said sexual lust is a sin.  Lust means "intense desire."  The Scripture never says that intense sexual desires are sinful.

Where is the word, covet, in the above analysis?  If I covet Kim Kardashian and I masturbate 20 times a day (hypothetical only  Roll Eyes) focused on Kim Kardashian, I would be sinning because I covet and because I harm myself while engaged in sexual lust.

What about the married man who covets his former high school classmates on Facebook, meets one of them at a hotel bar and has sex with her?

I'm not the only one who said that sexual lust outside of marriage - gee, I really have to keep adding that disclaimer - is a sin.  I'm the only one debating you in this thread.

Such desires are *sometimes* sinful (in sinful contexts) and sometimes holy (in holy contexts).  For instance, marriage involved intense sexual desires.  See Song of Solomon, both before and after the wedding.

Find the term, covet, in the Song of Solomon.

You mean the Church's Scriptures, right?

I mean what translations of Scripture are you using.  I told you what I use; at least have the courtesy to share your sources so I can verify them myself.


Either way... that teaching is found in Romans 2.  "For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.  They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."

Need verses.
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« Reply #138 on: May 03, 2012, 06:22:07 PM »

What a nice thing to say.  I'm glad we can acknowledge one another's stubbornness in peace.  I've known people like you also, people who add to the Scriptures.

I'm not adding to the Scriptures.

Yes, you are.  You said sexual lust is a sin.  Lust means "intense desire."  The Scripture never says that intense sexual desires are sinful.

Where is the word, covet, in the above analysis?  If I covet Kim Kardashian and I masturbate 20 times a day (hypothetical only  Roll Eyes) focused on Kim Kardashian, I would be sinning because I covet and because I harm myself while engaged in sexual lust.

I'm not your judge.  As far as I'm concerned, there is nothing inherently wrong with lusting for Ms. Kardashian unless she is married to someone else (or if I am).  The couple in Song of Solomon lusts for one another before their wedding; lust is part of what brought about the formation of their holy marriage.  If all you do all day is masturbate to Ms. K, then you have a problem.  Similarly drinking alcohol is not a sin, but if that's all you do then you have taken what is good and made it sinful.  The sin is in the excess in that case.  

But that doesn't mean I should necessarily lust after her.  As far as I'm concerned, it would be a waste of time and energy unless I want to marry her.  But again, I'm not your judge.  Do what you feel is right in your heart.  If the Spirit convicts you in your conscience that it is wrong, then by all means avoid it.  If not, then feel free.  Scripture does not say sexual lust is a sin in and of itself.  That's all. 

Some people are convicted to be celibate.  Others aren't.  Different people have different convictions, and that is fine.  I'm not God.  Ask God your questions.

What about the married man who covets his former high school classmates on Facebook, meets one of them at a hotel bar and has sex with her?

Then he has committed adultery, both when he lusted for the woman other than his wife and when he had sex with her.

I'm not the only one who said that sexual lust outside of marriage - gee, I really have to keep adding that disclaimer - is a sin.  I'm the only one debating you in this thread.

Such desires are *sometimes* sinful (in sinful contexts) and sometimes holy (in holy contexts).  For instance, marriage involved intense sexual desires.  See Song of Solomon, both before and after the wedding.

Find the term, covet, in the Song of Solomon.

Why?

You mean the Church's Scriptures, right?

I mean what translations of Scripture are you using.  I told you what I use; at least have the courtesy to share your sources so I can verify them myself.


Either way... that teaching is found in Romans 2.  "For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.  They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."

Need verses.

No you don't.  You should always read the context anyway.  Romans 2.
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« Reply #139 on: May 03, 2012, 06:45:44 PM »

There is nothing wrong with lusting for Ms. Kardashian unless she is married to someone else (or if you are).

You're still using lust; I'm using covet.  If I love my wife, I have no need to covet other women.  Yet, I am fallen and subject to temptation and when my wife finds out that I've succumbed to temptation, I have to suffer consequences for my actions.  If my wife cheats on me, she has to suffer her own consequences and it's up to me whether I forgive her or not.  I would forgive her.

The couple in Song of Solomon lusts for one another before their wedding; lust is part of what brought about the formation of their holy marriage.  If all you do all day is masturbate to Ms. K, then you have a problem.  Similarly drinking alcohol is not a sin, but if that's all you do then you have taken what is good and made it sinful.  The sin is in the excess in that case.

Other than your literal interpretation of the Song of Solomon in the first 2 clauses, we agree on the rest of the paragraph.  Let's work on that foundation. 

But again, I'm not your judge.  If the Spirit convicts you in your conscience that it is wrong, then by all means avoid it.  Some people are convicted to be celibate.  Others aren't.  Different people have different convictions, and that is fine.  I'm not God.  As God your questions.

The Orthodox Church is equipped to handle different people with different convictions.  Usually, the Church invites them to return home, if they're Orthodox.  If they're not Orthodox, then different Priests (who do exercise different convictions) tell different things; usually to the effect of "if you don't like it, leave."  For example, one inquires about the Orthodox Church and is not ready to leave their former religion behind.  When that person is finally ready to become part of the Orthodox Church, then a Priest will pay attention to them.

What about the married man who covets his former high school classmates on Facebook, meets one of them at a hotel bar and has sex with her?

Then he has committed adultery, both when he lusted for the woman other than his wife and when he had sex with her.

A sin that has major consequences financially, spiritually, emotionally, etc.

I'm not the only one who said that sexual lust outside of marriage - gee, I really have to keep adding that disclaimer - is a sin.  I'm the only one debating you in this thread.

Such desires are *sometimes* sinful (in sinful contexts) and sometimes holy (in holy contexts).  For instance, marriage involved intense sexual desires.  See Song of Solomon, both before and after the wedding.

Find the term, covet, in the Song of Solomon.

Why?

I'm curious - look in your Scriptures and see if the word covet exists.

You mean the Church's Scriptures, right?

I mean what translations of Scripture are you using.  I told you what I use; at least have the courtesy to share your sources so I can verify them myself.


Either way... that teaching is found in Romans 2.  "For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.  They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."

Need verses.

No you don't.  You should always read the context anyway.  Romans 2.

God's Judgment will be:

according to truth
according to impenitent hearts
according to our deeds (unity of intentions with actions, faith with works)

Page 1523 of the Orthodox Study Bible
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« Reply #140 on: May 03, 2012, 06:54:30 PM »


You're still using lust; I'm using covet.  If I love my wife, I have no need to covet other women.  Yet, I am fallen and subject to temptation and when my wife finds out that I've succumbed to temptation, I have to suffer consequences for my actions.  If my wife cheats on me, she has to suffer her own consequences and it's up to me whether I forgive her or not.  I would forgive her.....
Other than your literal interpretation of the Song of Solomon in the first 2 clauses, we agree on the rest of the paragraph.  Let's work on that foundation.  ...
God's Judgment will be:

according to truth
according to impenitent hearts
according to our deeds (unity of intentions with actions, faith with works)

Page 1523 of the Orthodox Study Bible

And your using "covet" and I'm using "lust."  This is getting ridiculous.  You can argue with yourself about masturbation if you want.  

It will be shown that the requirements of the law are written on hearts, consciences bearing witness and thoughts sometimes accusing and at other times even defending.  This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ.

The Holy Spirit is the main guide for the Christian.  Scripture is our guide too, along with the Church.  But ultimately we are to be led by God.  If you think it is a sin to masturbate, then don't do it.  If you don't think it is a sin, then you're free to do it.  

There is nothing wrong with intense sexual desire.  You could ask me 1000 times to ignore the Song of Solomon, but I feel that God is leading me to pay attention to his Word and believe it.  So... further debate on this point with you is... pointless.  Have a nice day.
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« Reply #141 on: May 03, 2012, 07:02:30 PM »

I do not know about the rest of you, but if I ever get married and have children one day, I really hope that I do not have a boy so that I do not have to ever walk in on him masturbating or anything, or have to lecture him about porn and stuff. I know that my mother once walked in on me masturbating and it was one of the most embarassing moments of my life.
Would you feel better walking in on your daughter?

If you have a daughter, you are still her father.  You had better talk to her about porn and stuff.  If you don't, she will find another man to teach her.

Well wouldn't her mother do that if we had a daughter? I'm not a parent, but I had always assumed that usually the father handles the sons' sexual debauchery while the mother takes care of the daughter. Have you had to have these talks, lectures and lessons with your children yet?

In my house, my parents both handled "the talk" with me, though it wasn't a single talk. It was a series of discussions over a few years right before and as I was going through the early stages of puberty. My Dad explained some stuff, and my Mom explained some things. My Dad read me a book explaining in simple & wholesome terms sexual development and the role love and marriage should play (it was a Christian book, IIRC). My Mom later talked with me about it. When I learned about sexual development in school, I went home and talked with my Mom since my Dad was at work. I actually asked something like "Does that (period) actually happen to girls?" She said, "Yes."

And it was almost always my Mom who would confront me about masturbation (which usually consisted of "Go do that in your room, though I'd prefer you not do it at all").
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« Reply #142 on: May 03, 2012, 07:07:39 PM »

There is nothing wrong with intense sexual desire.  You could ask me 1000 times to ignore the Song of Solomon, but I feel that God is leading me to pay attention to his Word and believe it.  So... further debate on this point with you is... pointless.  Have a nice day.

The Song of Solomon is not the only God inspired Scripture out there.  When I first read the Song of Solomon, I thought it was a graphic love story; however, I realized that there was a deeper meaning that had nothing to do with graphic love.  I used to think that Jesus sinned; I think I told you that in the Premarital Sex thread.  Anyway, even though I believed on the surface that Jesus sinned, deep down inside, something was wrong with that statement and I realized that I was wrong.  You're young; I'm not.  I wish you the best; hopefully, you can reach a different understanding than the understanding you have presented in this thread and others.

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« Reply #143 on: May 03, 2012, 07:34:04 PM »

There is nothing wrong with intense sexual desire.  You could ask me 1000 times to ignore the Song of Solomon, but I feel that God is leading me to pay attention to his Word and believe it.  So... further debate on this point with you is... pointless.  Have a nice day.

The Song of Solomon is not the only God inspired Scripture out there.  When I first read the Song of Solomon, I thought it was a graphic love story; however, I realized that there was a deeper meaning that had nothing to do with graphic love.  I used to think that Jesus sinned; I think I told you that in the Premarital Sex thread.  Anyway, even though I believed on the surface that Jesus sinned, deep down inside, something was wrong with that statement and I realized that I was wrong.  You're young; I'm not.  I wish you the best; hopefully, you can reach a different understanding than the understanding you have presented in this thread and others.

How old am I?  (since you seem to know)

When Jesus fed thousands from five loaves and two fish there was a deeper meaning too.  It showed Him as the new Moses.  Nonetheless, it actually happened.  He literally performed that miracle.  It was actually celebrated and still is.  

The Song of Solomon does have a deeper meaning too; you're right.  However, nonetheless, it still also celebrates intense sexual desires.  There is nothing wrong with such desires.  They were created by God, obviously, and are incredibly wonderful.  Like all wonderful and powerful things though, like alcohol for instance, they can easily be abused.  We must be careful here.  Nonetheless, Scripture plainly teaches that sexual desire is very often an important part of holy marriage, both in the formation of holy marriage and in its practice.

It was prophesied the church would become anti-marriage and anti-many-good-things in 1 Timothy 4.  Be careful with how prohibitive you become toward sexual desire.  I wish you the best also.  I'm out of this thread.  Peace.
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« Reply #144 on: May 03, 2012, 11:20:29 PM »

How old am I?  (since you seem to know)

I don't know.  Does it matter? 

When Jesus fed thousands from five loaves and two fish there was a deeper meaning too.  It showed Him as the new Moses.

New Moses?  The five loves are the first 5 books of the Old Testament and the two fish represent the Gospel and the Epistle.  Jesus was prefiguring the Eucharist for this miracle is present in all 4 Gospels (Page 1295 of the Orthodox Study Bible).  New Moses?

Nonetheless, it actually happened.  He literally performed that miracle.  It was actually celebrated and still is.  

You're right, as Holy Communion or the Eucharist.

It was prophesied the church would become anti-marriage and anti-many-good-things in 1 Timothy 4.  

The church is not "anti-marriage."  The church is against willful disobedience, unthankful dispositions and uncontrolled desires. (Page 1637 of the Orthodox Study Bible)

Be careful with how prohibitive you become toward sexual desire.  I wish you the best also.  I'm out of this thread.  Peace.

Controlling sexual desire (or having someone control your sexual desire) can be a life saving event.
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« Reply #145 on: May 04, 2012, 02:58:14 PM »

How old am I?  (since you seem to know)

I don't know.  Does it matter?  

I asked because you said you know that you're old and I'm young.  That implies that you know how old I am, so I asked in order to test your claim.  #test.successful

When Jesus fed thousands from five loaves and two fish there was a deeper meaning too.  It showed Him as the new Moses.

New Moses?  The five loves are the first 5 books of the Old Testament and the two fish represent the Gospel and the Epistle.  Jesus was prefiguring the Eucharist for this miracle is present in all 4 Gospels (Page 1295 of the Orthodox Study Bible).  New Moses?

Yes.  New Moses.  Not everything is written in your Orthodox Study Bible.  Talk to your priest.  Ask him about Christ as the New Moses in the book of Matthew.

Nonetheless, it actually happened.  He literally performed that miracle.  It was actually celebrated and still is.  

You're right, as Holy Communion or the Eucharist.

... yes, and by being recorded in Scripture and vocally remembered in Church (even outside of the Eucharist).

It was prophesied the church would become anti-marriage and anti-many-good-things in 1 Timothy 4.  

The church is not "anti-marriage."  The church is against willful disobedience, unthankful dispositions and uncontrolled desires. (Page 1637 of the Orthodox Study Bible)

Excuse me.  It was prophesied that many in the church would become anti-many-good-things in 1 Timothy 4, specifically in a way that hinders the formation of marriage.  Intense sexual desires are recorded in the Song as, sometimes, playing a holy and wonderful part of the formation of marriage.  Many in the church deny that and in many cases attempt to hinder or even forbid the natural formation of marriage.  #prophecy.fulfilled

Be careful with how prohibitive you become toward sexual desire.  I wish you the best also.  I'm out of this thread.  Peace.

Controlling sexual desire (or having someone control your sexual desire) can be a life saving event.

Amen.
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« Reply #146 on: May 04, 2012, 03:01:32 PM »

How old am I?  (since you seem to know)

I don't know.  Does it matter? 

When Jesus fed thousands from five loaves and two fish there was a deeper meaning too.  It showed Him as the new Moses.

New Moses?  The five loves are the first 5 books of the Old Testament and the two fish represent the Gospel and the Epistle.  Jesus was prefiguring the Eucharist for this miracle is present in all 4 Gospels (Page 1295 of the Orthodox Study Bible).  New Moses?

Nonetheless, it actually happened.  He literally performed that miracle.  It was actually celebrated and still is.  

You're right, as Holy Communion or the Eucharist.

It was prophesied the church would become anti-marriage and anti-many-good-things in 1 Timothy 4.  

The church is not "anti-marriage."  The church is against willful disobedience, unthankful dispositions and uncontrolled desires. (Page 1637 of the Orthodox Study Bible)

Be careful with how prohibitive you become toward sexual desire.  I wish you the best also.  I'm out of this thread.  Peace.

Controlling sexual desire (or having someone control your sexual desire) can be a life saving event.

Oh.  The OSB is not the final authority on matters?  Sorry, don't think so.
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« Reply #147 on: May 04, 2012, 03:12:11 PM »

Yes.  New Moses.  Not everything is written in your Orthodox Study Bible.  Talk to your priest.  Ask him about Christ as the New Moses in the book of Matthew.

It should be mentioned that we just heard the passage in question last liturgy in my (Coptic Orthodox) church, and our priest taught the same lesson on it as is apparently in the OSB (which is not actually the Bible translation we use), so I would expect that it is likely to be the interpretation you'd get from any Orthodox priest. Not that there might not be other interpretations (though I haven't heard them from our priests), but it is wrong to misrepresent SolEX01 as simply parroting the OSB when it is also the common interpretation of others who do not even use that text.
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« Reply #148 on: May 04, 2012, 04:12:19 PM »

Oh.  The OSB is not the final authority on matters?  Sorry, don't think so.

Who said I made the OSB a final authority on matters?  The Editors of the OSB made a decision to clarify the notes and commentary which emphasizes the major themes of the Christian faith.  The notes give primary attention to:

1.  The Holy Trinity
2.  The Incarnation
3.  The Centrality of the Church
4.  The Virtues: God's call to His people to live righteous and holy lives in Christ

In fact, by citing from the OSB, Orthodox Christian beliefs are made accessible to others.

Page XII of the Orthodox Study Bible
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« Reply #149 on: May 04, 2012, 04:13:53 PM »

Yes.  New Moses.  Not everything is written in your Orthodox Study Bible.  Talk to your priest.  Ask him about Christ as the New Moses in the book of Matthew.

It should be mentioned that we just heard the passage in question last liturgy in my (Coptic Orthodox) church, and our priest taught the same lesson on it as is apparently in the OSB (which is not actually the Bible translation we use), so I would expect that it is likely to be the interpretation you'd get from any Orthodox priest. Not that there might not be other interpretations (though I haven't heard them from our priests), but it is wrong to misrepresent SolEX01 as simply parroting the OSB when it is also the common interpretation of others who do not even use that text.

Thank You for the defense.   Smiley
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« Reply #150 on: May 04, 2012, 04:32:03 PM »

How old am I?  (since you seem to know)

I don't know.  Does it matter?  

I asked because you said you know that you're old and I'm young.  That implies that you know how old I am, so I asked in order to test your claim.  #test.successful

Does it matter how old we are if we are as susceptible to the same temptations whether its women or drugs?

Yes.  New Moses.  Not everything is written in your Orthodox Study Bible.  Talk to your priest.  Ask him about Christ as the New Moses in the book of Matthew.

I will cite from a blog of an Orthodox Priest:

Quote
One point Johnson made which really captured my attention is that St. Paul describes Jesus as the new Adam,  not as a new Moses or new Abraham, not a new Jew or the new Israelite, but a new human being

source

More about Fr. Ted:

Quote
Fr. Ted Bobosh is a priest in the Orthodox Church in America. He has degrees from the Ohio State University, St. Vladimir’s Orthodox Theological Seminary and Fordham University. He is the parish priest of St. Paul the Apostle Church in Dayton, OH.

Excuse me.  It was prophesied that many in the church would become anti-many-good-things in 1 Timothy 4, specifically in a way that hinders the formation of marriage. Intense sexual desires are recorded in the Song as, sometimes, playing a holy and wonderful part of the formation of marriage.  Many in the church deny that and in many cases attempt to hinder or even forbid the natural formation of marriage.  #prophecy.fulfilled

What are you talking about when you say that the prophecy has been fulfilled?  How did your Greek Orthodox Christian friends explain the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony?

Be careful with how prohibitive you become toward sexual desire.  I wish you the best also.  I'm out of this thread.  Peace.

Controlling sexual desire (or having someone control your sexual desire) can be a life saving event.

Amen.

Another point of agreement.   Grin
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« Reply #151 on: May 04, 2012, 05:09:28 PM »

How old am I?  (since you seem to know)

I don't know.  Does it matter?  

I asked because you said you know that you're old and I'm young.  That implies that you know how old I am, so I asked in order to test your claim.  #test.successful

Does it matter how old we are if we are as susceptible to the same temptations whether its women or drugs?

Of course it doesn't.  I only asked because you curiously claimed that I'm young, apparently without knowing my age.  That struck me as odd.  That's the only reason I asked if you honestly know how old I am.

Yes.  New Moses.  Not everything is written in your Orthodox Study Bible.  Talk to your priest.  Ask him about Christ as the New Moses in the book of Matthew.

I will cite from a blog of an Orthodox Priest:

Quote
One point Johnson made which really captured my attention is that St. Paul describes Jesus as the new Adam,  not as a new Moses or new Abraham, not a new Jew or the new Israelite, but a new human being

[He went to] St. Vladimir’s Orthodox Theological Seminary and Fordham University. He is the parish priest of St. Paul the Apostle Church in Dayton, OH.

That's all fine and dandy.  But the priest that personally told me Christ is the new Moses also went to St. Vladimir's, and he is the dean and priest of a Cathedral in the Orthodox Church in America.  More importantly, he's never told me anything false (as far as I can tell).  I won't mention his name in public because he personally asks all catechumens to not quote him publicly (he has had too many experiences where listeners take his words out of context, and once a news organization got a hold of a second or third hand quote and spread false reports about him in the community).

So... as I said I will say again... ask your priest if Matthew paints Christ as the new Moses.  If your priest disagrees with my priest, then perhaps we can continue this conversation about Moses and Christ in private and get to the bottom of why our priests disagree.  

Excuse me.  It was prophesied that many in the church would become anti-many-good-things in 1 Timothy 4, specifically in a way that hinders the formation of marriage. Intense sexual desires are recorded in the Song as, sometimes, playing a holy and wonderful part of the formation of marriage.  Many in the church deny that and in many cases attempt to hinder or even forbid the natural formation of marriage.  #prophecy.fulfilled

What are you talking about when you say that the prophecy has been fulfilled?  How did your Greek Orthodox Christian friends explain the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony?

Many in the Christian churches attempt to hinder or even forbid the very intense sexual desires that Scripture celebrates as part of the natural formation of marriage.  For instance, many in Christian churches forbid sharing a bed or lying down with one another before the wedding.  But such actions are celebrated in holy Scripture as leading up to a holy marriage.  See Song of Solomon.  

Many of my Greek Orthodox Christian friends considered marriage to be something that occurs between two people and God, and then is (sometimes) recognized by the Church (if the couple wants to celebrate their marriage in the Church).
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« Reply #152 on: May 04, 2012, 06:25:29 PM »

How old am I?  (since you seem to know)

I don't know.  Does it matter?  

I asked because you said you know that you're old and I'm young.  That implies that you know how old I am, so I asked in order to test your claim.  #test.successful

Does it matter how old we are if we are as susceptible to the same temptations whether its women or drugs?

Of course it doesn't.  I only asked because you curiously claimed that I'm young, apparently without knowing my age.  That struck me as odd.  That's the only reason I asked if you honestly know how old I am.

I'm 38.

Excuse me.  It was prophesied that many in the church would become anti-many-good-things in 1 Timothy 4, specifically in a way that hinders the formation of marriage. Intense sexual desires are recorded in the Song as, sometimes, playing a holy and wonderful part of the formation of marriage.  Many in the church deny that and in many cases attempt to hinder or even forbid the natural formation of marriage.  #prophecy.fulfilled

What are you talking about when you say that the prophecy has been fulfilled?  How did your Greek Orthodox Christian friends explain the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony?

Many in the Christian churches attempt to hinder or even forbid the very intense sexual desires that Scripture celebrates as part of the natural formation of marriage.  For instance, many in Christian churches forbid sharing a bed or lying down with one another before the wedding.  But such actions are celebrated in holy Scripture as leading up to a holy marriage.  See Song of Solomon.  

Many of my Greek Orthodox Christian friends considered marriage to be something that occurs between two people and God, and then is (sometimes) recognized by the Church (if the couple wants to celebrate their marriage in the Church).

Your Greek Orthodox Christian friends can give no theological basis behind celebrating the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony?
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« Reply #153 on: May 04, 2012, 08:31:30 PM »

Oh.  The OSB is not the final authority on matters?  Sorry, don't think so.

Who said I made the OSB a final authority on matters?  The Editors of the OSB made a decision to clarify the notes and commentary which emphasizes the major themes of the Christian faith.  The notes give primary attention to:

1.  The Holy Trinity
2.  The Incarnation
3.  The Centrality of the Church
4.  The Virtues: God's call to His people to live righteous and holy lives in Christ

In fact, by citing from the OSB, Orthodox Christian beliefs are made accessible to others.

Page XII of the Orthodox Study Bible

No, neo-Protestant mumbo jumbo is foisted on Orthodox Christians.  Yes, I've read the OSB.  And I got rid of it.
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« Reply #154 on: May 04, 2012, 08:56:21 PM »

Oh.  The OSB is not the final authority on matters?  Sorry, don't think so.

Who said I made the OSB a final authority on matters?  The Editors of the OSB made a decision to clarify the notes and commentary which emphasizes the major themes of the Christian faith.  The notes give primary attention to:

1.  The Holy Trinity
2.  The Incarnation
3.  The Centrality of the Church
4.  The Virtues: God's call to His people to live righteous and holy lives in Christ

In fact, by citing from the OSB, Orthodox Christian beliefs are made accessible to others.

Page XII of the Orthodox Study Bible

No, neo-Protestant mumbo jumbo is foisted on Orthodox Christians.  Yes, I've read the OSB.  And I got rid of it.

I don't see anything neo-Protestant in the OSB.  What did you find lacking, other than neo-Protestantism, with the OSB?   Huh
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« Reply #155 on: May 05, 2012, 12:43:29 AM »

acts420, if you anticipate so eagerly your entry into the Church, don't you think it better you learn and submit to the Church's wisdom than demand that the Church learn and submit to your folly?
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« Reply #156 on: May 05, 2012, 04:57:59 AM »

acts420, if you anticipate so eagerly your entry into the Church, don't you think it better you learn and submit to the Church's wisdom than demand that the Church learn and submit to your folly?

Dear Peter, Christ is Risen!  

Yes I do think it is better to learn and submit to the Church's wisdom.   But submission to you and submission to the Church's wisdom are two very different things.  I do submit to the Church, and I have never demanded that anyone, much less the Church, submit to me.  I have only shared my opinions here.

It seems to me that you are implying I should follow the majority of those who decided to comment on this thread in order to follow the Church.  But following the Church is not the same thing as following an anonymous bunch of people on an internet message board, even a message board that calls itself "orthodox Christian."  Anyone can call anything orthodox Christian.  I could call my dog an "orthodox Christian" dog if I wanted to.  That doesn't mean my dog is "the Church."

You may even be arrogantly implying I should follow you in order to follow the Church!  But following the Church is also not the same thing as following the moderators of "orthodox Christian" websites.  In fact, if anything, the moderators of privately owned internet forums are the last people anyone should follow!  The type of people that get attracted to positions of anonymous "authority" over privately owned websites are sometimes simply attracted to the feeling they get when they call others foolish and attempt to make others submit to them.  Maybe it makes them feel powerful; power is like a drug in many ways, a very addictive one.  But the reality is that such people have no authority whatsoever in the kingdom, and they are sometimes so blinded by their power that they think their own folly is wisdom.  I should follow a bunch of random internet users before I follow such people!  

Who I should actually follow is the actual Church, the real One.  The actual Holy, Catholic, Apostolic, Church guides me through the Spirit, the holy Scriptures, the divine Liturgy, and the Church Fathers.  I am obedient to my God first; I seek to obey his Spirit as I pray and search His Scriptures.  I am obedient to my priest in the flesh, as he is to my Bishop, and I seek spiritual advice from him and all the Fathers.  I attend the liturgy and learn from the services.

As far as I can tell, God has never taught me that masturbation is a sin.  Likewise, the orthodox Church has never taught me that masturbation is a sin.  So I don't tell others it is a sin.  Although I value you as a human being in the image of God, I don't place two cents worth of value on what you "teach" me... especially you (given how you've treated me since I've known you).  

"We must obey God rather than human beings!  The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead — whom you killed by hanging him on a cross.  God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins.  We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him." (the Holy Apostles, from Acts chapter 5)
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« Reply #157 on: May 05, 2012, 09:04:30 AM »

acts420, if you anticipate so eagerly your entry into the Church, don't you think it better you learn and submit to the Church's wisdom than demand that the Church learn and submit to your folly?

Dear Peter, Christ is Risen!  

Yes I do think it is better to learn and submit to the Church's wisdom.   But submission to you and submission to the Church's wisdom are two very different things.  I do submit to the Church, and I have never demanded that anyone, much less the Church, submit to me.  I have only shared my opinions here.

It seems to me that you are implying I should follow the majority of those who decided to comment on this thread in order to follow the Church.
A lot of things seem to you, but I've learned from personal experience that most of what you see in the words of others is merely your own reflection.

But following the Church is not the same thing as following an anonymous bunch of people on an internet message board, even a message board that calls itself "orthodox Christian."  Anyone can call anything orthodox Christian.  I could call my dog an "orthodox Christian" dog if I wanted to.  That doesn't mean my dog is "the Church."

You may even be arrogantly implying I should follow you in order to follow the Church!  But following the Church is also not the same thing as following the moderators of "orthodox Christian" websites.  In fact, if anything, the moderators of privately owned internet forums are the last people anyone should follow!  The type of people that get attracted to positions of anonymous "authority" over privately owned websites are sometimes simply attracted to the feeling they get when they call others foolish and attempt to make others submit to them.  Maybe it makes them feel powerful; power is like a drug in many ways, a very addictive one.  But the reality is that such people have no authority whatsoever in the kingdom, and they are sometimes so blinded by their power that they think their own folly is wisdom.  I should follow a bunch of random internet users before I follow such people!
But go ahead and listen only to your interpretation of what other people say rather than give others a chance to interpret for you what they really want you to hear.

Who I should actually follow is the actual Church, the real One.  The actual Holy, Catholic, Apostolic, Church guides me through the Spirit, the holy Scriptures, the divine Liturgy, and the Church Fathers.  I am obedient to my God first; I seek to obey his Spirit as I pray and search His Scriptures.  I am obedient to my priest in the flesh, as he is to my Bishop, and I seek spiritual advice from him and all the Fathers.  I attend the liturgy and learn from the services.

As far as I can tell, God has never taught me that masturbation is a sin.  Likewise, the orthodox Church has never taught me that masturbation is a sin.
I don't know what Orthodox Church you're talking about, then, because the Orthodox Church I know teaches that masturbation is a disordered practice and, therefore, a sin.
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« Reply #158 on: May 05, 2012, 01:01:49 PM »

I am going to print this out and post it on my wall so I can see it.  I have never seen someone write something so in tune with what I feel before.

acts420, if you anticipate so eagerly your entry into the Church, don't you think it better you learn and submit to the Church's wisdom than demand that the Church learn and submit to your folly?

Dear Peter, Christ is Risen! 

Yes I do think it is better to learn and submit to the Church's wisdom.   But submission to you and submission to the Church's wisdom are two very different things.  I do submit to the Church, and I have never demanded that anyone, much less the Church, submit to me.  I have only shared my opinions here.

It seems to me that you are implying I should follow the majority of those who decided to comment on this thread in order to follow the Church.  But following the Church is not the same thing as following an anonymous bunch of people on an internet message board, even a message board that calls itself "orthodox Christian."  Anyone can call anything orthodox Christian.  I could call my dog an "orthodox Christian" dog if I wanted to.  That doesn't mean my dog is "the Church."

You may even be arrogantly implying I should follow you in order to follow the Church!  But following the Church is also not the same thing as following the moderators of "orthodox Christian" websites.  In fact, if anything, the moderators of privately owned internet forums are the last people anyone should follow!  The type of people that get attracted to positions of anonymous "authority" over privately owned websites are sometimes simply attracted to the feeling they get when they call others foolish and attempt to make others submit to them.  Maybe it makes them feel powerful; power is like a drug in many ways, a very addictive one.  But the reality is that such people have no authority whatsoever in the kingdom, and they are sometimes so blinded by their power that they think their own folly is wisdom.  I should follow a bunch of random internet users before I follow such people! 

Who I should actually follow is the actual Church, the real One.  The actual Holy, Catholic, Apostolic, Church guides me through the Spirit, the holy Scriptures, the divine Liturgy, and the Church Fathers.  I am obedient to my God first; I seek to obey his Spirit as I pray and search His Scriptures.  I am obedient to my priest in the flesh, as he is to my Bishop, and I seek spiritual advice from him and all the Fathers.  I attend the liturgy and learn from the services.

As far as I can tell, God has never taught me that masturbation is a sin.  Likewise, the orthodox Church has never taught me that masturbation is a sin.  So I don't tell others it is a sin.  Although I value you as a human being in the image of God, I don't place two cents worth of value on what you "teach" me... especially you (given how you've treated me since I've known you). 

"We must obey God rather than human beings!  The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead — whom you killed by hanging him on a cross.  God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins.  We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him." (the Holy Apostles, from Acts chapter 5)
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« Reply #159 on: May 06, 2012, 03:26:42 AM »

Okay, let me see if I can sum all these points up as the vast majority of Orthodox Christians in this thread have put it. Some of it may seem pretty basic, but I want to be clear to avoid confusion for others or myself:

  • Lust is having sexual desires for someone who is not your spouse. It can happen when a person is not married or while he or she is married.
  • Sexual desire outside of marriage is not permitted and is considered lust. Sexual desire within marriage is permitted up to a certain point, provided that it is for a person's spouse.
  • Solo masturbation is not permitted when it is sexual in nature (as in fantasizing about a woman or man). Solo masturbation that is sexual in nature is a sin.
  • Mutual masturbation within marriage is alright.
  • While solo masturbation is a sin and should be confessed during confession, it is at the same time not something that we should have great anxiety over, particularly if a person struggles with it as a temptation.
  • Adultery is a sin, and having sexual desires for someone who is not your spouse is also a sin
  • Sex is something that should be confined within the bounds of marriage. It is sinful if you engage in it before marriage or outside of marriage.
  • It is sinful to deny your spouse sex when he or she wants it.
  • At the same time, sex is something that should be treated with the amount of reverence it deserves.
  • There is not single "Orthodox" sexual position (i.e. Missionary, etc.)
  • As with all other things, consult with your spiritual father about these issues if you struggle with them (and I think that is all of us).

I realize there is at least one of us here who disagrees with basically every point, but I want to make sure I have everything right in points that are as succinct as possible.

Also, apparently, "sodomy" is a godless Latinization.
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« Reply #160 on: May 06, 2012, 05:53:15 PM »

Okay, let me see if I can sum all these points up as the vast majority of Orthodox Christians in this thread have put it. Some of it may seem pretty basic, but I want to be clear to avoid confusion for others or myself:

  • Lust is having sexual desires for someone who is not your spouse. It can happen when a person is not married or while he or she is married.
  • Sexual desire outside of marriage is not permitted and is considered lust. Sexual desire within marriage is permitted up to a certain point, provided that it is for a person's spouse.
  • Solo masturbation is not permitted when it is sexual in nature (as in fantasizing about a woman or man). Solo masturbation that is sexual in nature is a sin.
  • Mutual masturbation within marriage is alright.
  • While solo masturbation is a sin and should be confessed during confession, it is at the same time not something that we should have great anxiety over, particularly if a person struggles with it as a temptation.
  • Adultery is a sin, and having sexual desires for someone who is not your spouse is also a sin
  • Sex is something that should be confined within the bounds of marriage. It is sinful if you engage in it before marriage or outside of marriage.
  • It is sinful to deny your spouse sex when he or she wants it.
  • At the same time, sex is something that should be treated with the amount of reverence it deserves.
  • There is not single "Orthodox" sexual position (i.e. Missionary, etc.)
  • As with all other things, consult with your spiritual father about these issues if you struggle with them (and I think that is all of us).

I realize there is at least one of us here who disagrees with basically every point, but I want to make sure I have everything right in points that are as succinct as possible.

Also, apparently, "sodomy" is a godless Latinization.

Well, you have at least one here that agrees with everything that you have written here.
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« Reply #161 on: May 06, 2012, 06:36:18 PM »

Lust is still sinful in a marriage. That is, when your spouse becomes an object of your lust. There is a difference between sexual attraction with your spouse and lusting after them.
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« Reply #162 on: May 06, 2012, 08:38:30 PM »

Lust is still sinful in a marriage. That is, when your spouse becomes an object of your lust. There is a difference between sexual attraction with your spouse and lusting after them.
But what is lust?
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« Reply #163 on: May 06, 2012, 08:41:13 PM »

Quid est veritas?
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« Reply #164 on: May 06, 2012, 08:43:22 PM »

Lust is still sinful in a marriage. That is, when your spouse becomes an object of your lust. There is a difference between sexual attraction with your spouse and lusting after them.
But what is lust?

To grab a definition from the Catholic Encyclopedia:
"The inordinate craving for, or indulgence of, the carnal pleasure which is experienced in the human organs of generation."
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« Reply #165 on: May 06, 2012, 08:47:33 PM »

Quid est veritas?

Deus. Id est pater et filius et spiritus sanctus.
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« Reply #166 on: May 06, 2012, 08:49:54 PM »

Lust is still sinful in a marriage. That is, when your spouse becomes an object of your lust. There is a difference between sexual attraction with your spouse and lusting after them.
But what is lust?

To grab a definition from the Catholic Encyclopedia:
"The inordinate craving for, or indulgence of, the carnal pleasure which is experienced in the human organs of generation."
So how is it possible for one's desire for one's spouse to cross the line into inordinate?
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« Reply #167 on: May 06, 2012, 08:54:28 PM »

Lust is still sinful in a marriage. That is, when your spouse becomes an object of your lust. There is a difference between sexual attraction with your spouse and lusting after them.
But what is lust?

To grab a definition from the Catholic Encyclopedia:
"The inordinate craving for, or indulgence of, the carnal pleasure which is experienced in the human organs of generation."
So how is it possible for one's desire for one's spouse to cross the line into inordinate?

When your desire for your spouse is merely for your own gratification. To use your spouse like a sex toy. When this happens, the act is not a loving bond between husband and wife. Instead it becomes a twisted manifestation of self-satisfaction.
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« Reply #168 on: May 06, 2012, 08:55:58 PM »

Quid est veritas?

Deus. Id est pater et filius et spiritus sanctus.

Time to change your faith tag?  Smiley
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« Reply #169 on: May 06, 2012, 08:56:59 PM »

Quid est veritas?

Deus. Id est pater et filius et spiritus sanctus.

Time to change your faith tag?  Smiley

LOL!  Smiley
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« Reply #170 on: May 07, 2012, 10:22:21 AM »

Lust is still sinful in a marriage. That is, when your spouse becomes an object of your lust. There is a difference between sexual attraction with your spouse and lusting after them.
But what is lust?

To grab a definition from the Catholic Encyclopedia:
"The inordinate craving for, or indulgence of, the carnal pleasure which is experienced in the human organs of generation."
So how is it possible for one's desire for one's spouse to cross the line into inordinate?

I heard a story that when Sean Penn and Madonna were married he tied her up in the hotel room... but then he left...

 A little funny actually..a little sick too..certainly inordinate.
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« Reply #171 on: May 08, 2012, 12:06:07 AM »

Lust is still sinful in a marriage. That is, when your spouse becomes an object of your lust. There is a difference between sexual attraction with your spouse and lusting after them.
But what is lust?

To grab a definition from the Catholic Encyclopedia:
"The inordinate craving for, or indulgence of, the carnal pleasure which is experienced in the human organs of generation."
So how is it possible for one's desire for one's spouse to cross the line into inordinate?

I heard a story that when Sean Penn and Madonna were married he tied her up in the hotel room... but then he left...

 A little funny actually..a little sick too..certainly inordinate.
Did he gag her?
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« Reply #172 on: May 08, 2012, 12:11:13 AM »

Lust is still sinful in a marriage. That is, when your spouse becomes an object of your lust. There is a difference between sexual attraction with your spouse and lusting after them.
But what is lust?

To grab a definition from the Catholic Encyclopedia:
"The inordinate craving for, or indulgence of, the carnal pleasure which is experienced in the human organs of generation."
So how is it possible for one's desire for one's spouse to cross the line into inordinate?

When your desire for your spouse is merely for your own gratification. To use your spouse like a sex toy. When this happens, the act is not a loving bond between husband and wife. Instead it becomes a twisted manifestation of self-satisfaction.
ah, but the devil is in the details: as I've posted links to moralists speaking for the Vatican's view, class oral sex and mutual masturbation  ipso facto as "merely for your own gratification."
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #173 on: May 08, 2012, 01:22:52 AM »

Quote
Many of my Greek Orthodox Christian friends considered marriage to be something that occurs between two people and God, and then is (sometimes) recognized by the Church (if the couple wants to celebrate their marriage in the Church).
Your friends were poorly catechized, because that's not how sacraments work.

Marriage is between a couple and God, but a priest is required to the administer the sacrament. Two laymen cannot administer the sacrament of marriage for themselves.

Furthermore, we're not Protestants. We don't believe that sacraments are merely "outward signs of an inward change," as they say. The sacraments effect the changes themselves. No wedding = no marriage.

So these friends are not married; they're fornicating.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 01:38:39 AM by age234 » Logged
ialmisry
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« Reply #174 on: May 08, 2012, 02:37:28 AM »

Quote
Many of my Greek Orthodox Christian friends considered marriage to be something that occurs between two people and God, and then is (sometimes) recognized by the Church (if the couple wants to celebrate their marriage in the Church).
Your friends were poorly catechized, because that's not how sacraments work.

Marriage is between a couple and God, but a priest is required to the administer the sacrament. Two laymen cannot administer the sacrament of marriage for themselves.
Btw, the Vatican says they can.  Fr. Corappi often says how the Protestants have only two valid sacraments, baptism and marriage, because they have no priesthood.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #175 on: May 08, 2012, 09:34:33 AM »

Lust is still sinful in a marriage. That is, when your spouse becomes an object of your lust. There is a difference between sexual attraction with your spouse and lusting after them.
But what is lust?

To grab a definition from the Catholic Encyclopedia:
"The inordinate craving for, or indulgence of, the carnal pleasure which is experienced in the human organs of generation."
So how is it possible for one's desire for one's spouse to cross the line into inordinate?

I heard a story that when Sean Penn and Madonna were married he tied her up in the hotel room... but then he left...

 A little funny actually..a little sick too..certainly inordinate.
Did he gag her?

That would be my assumption.
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Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
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« Reply #176 on: May 22, 2012, 09:02:23 PM »

Just thought I'd pass this along.

https://twitter.com/PlannedParSWCFL/status/203583351897067522

Leave it to Planned Parenthood, heh.
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« Reply #177 on: October 01, 2013, 05:17:20 AM »

This post was a mistake to make. I dont feel I can actually contribute to this thread in any helpful way.
I'm too upset to post calmly or in prayer.
God forgive me.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 05:19:26 AM by tangentdi » Logged
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« Reply #178 on: April 20, 2014, 01:06:48 PM »

While solo masturbation is a sin and should be confessed during confession, it is at the same time not something that we should have great

Do you agree with this? Masturbation used to be a big problem for me, but over time I've made a lot of progress, and completely cut out pornography. But I still struggle with profound temptation some times, and some times end up giving in. Then I'm racked with terrible guilt and feel awful and like I need to rush to confession. Should I relax a bit (while of course still recognizing it is a sin)?
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« Reply #179 on: April 20, 2014, 03:44:37 PM »

I would rather replace masturbation with intimacy with a partner.
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