OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 20, 2014, 04:52:07 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Is masturbation allowed?  (Read 11397 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 29,459



« Reply #90 on: May 02, 2012, 10:05:47 AM »

I don't understand this strange idea about keeping threads on track. The second law law of forumdynamics clearly states that threads naturally tend to progress from order (on topic) to disorder (off topic). This is one of the four basic principles in all online discussion!
Logged

Building up my spiritual life one blurry avatar at a time!
vamrat
Vamratoraptor
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Serbian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: New Gracanica
Posts: 7,596



« Reply #91 on: May 02, 2012, 10:44:47 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Wow the decision is Ecumenical, "Go ask your priest."

stay blessed,
habte selassie
I can't make out what the pictures in the book are of.

dare ya to change the wiki pic to that and take a screenie... Wink

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad



Haha!  Could you imagine that?  That bear with a turban on his head and...

Anyone got an idea why there is an Arabic man standing in the corner with a kitchen knife...oh crap...
Logged
acts420
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: the Way
Jurisdiction: Jesus the Anointed One
Posts: 310



WWW
« Reply #92 on: May 02, 2012, 04:15:20 PM »

You are supposed to avoid lust if you can (see, for example, Matt. 5:27-28). There are other ideas for why people say you shouldn't masturbate, but the lust reason usually covers most people.

That passage does not say to avoid lust.  If you condemn all who lust then you condemn even Jesus Christ and His Holy Apostle.  For even Christ said, "With lust (epithymia) I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer.'"  (Luke 22:16)  Likewise, the Holy Apostle said, "But, brothers and sisters, when we were orphaned by being separated from you for a short time, out of our lust (epithymia) we made every effort to see you."  (1 Thessalonians 2:17)   See also 1 Timothy 6:9, "Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful lusts (epithymia) that plunge people into ruin and destruction." 

There are harmful lusts on one hand while, on the other hand, there are holy and honorable lusts.  The good contexts or bad contexts are what make the intense desires good or bad.  Intense desire, "lust," "epithymia," is not sinful in and of itself.

The passage from Matthew you cited says, “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’  But I tell you that anyone who looks at a wife lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."  The context is adultery, and the sinful act is looking at another man's wife with intense desire (epithymia).  That's all the passage says.  Lust for your own wife, or perhaps even your future wife, is never condemned in holy Scripture.  In fact, such lusts are sung about joyfully in the Song of Solomon.
Logged

In Christ,
Jason
www.acts420.com
acts420
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: the Way
Jurisdiction: Jesus the Anointed One
Posts: 310



WWW
« Reply #93 on: May 02, 2012, 04:21:05 PM »

It's "allowed" when you're married because you can think about your spouse.

You can think about your spouse even before you marry her.  If you know your future spouse, then you can easily think about her.   In fact, such lusts are sung about joyfully in the Song of Solomon both before and after the wedding.  As I said just above, "lust" (epithymia in the Greek, or "intense desire") is not always bad.  Even if you've never met your future wife personally, you can take some best guesses at her characteristics and think about her (or even "lust" for "her") in a general sense.  I don't see anything wrong with that.  

I'm not saying people should or shouldn't do such things, but if someone felt he should then I certainly would not try to stop him.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 04:21:45 PM by acts420 » Logged

In Christ,
Jason
www.acts420.com
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,467


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #94 on: May 02, 2012, 04:35:54 PM »

I've been reading this thread and trying to formulate a decent response (which this probably isn't but I can't hold it in any longer) to all the manure being spread about in here about masturbation and...oh, hell, I'm just going to call it what it is because it's a vulgar thing to begin with (note, the rest of this post will probably ruffle the feathers of the more innocent among us, you know who you are): anyone trying to justify beating off are just a bunch of wankers.  Period.  And you're proving it.

This is my take on it, a take from someone who literally jerked away one good relationship that was leading to marriage and has, at times, come dangerously close to doing the same within my marriage.  I am only going to talk about this topic within the confines of a marriage (including non-married cohabitating couples) relationship because that's what I'm familiar with.  I'm not going to quote this Father or that Bible verse because that's a bunch of bull$#!+ to and anyone that does that to justify mono-masturbation knows it.  I'm going with the gut feeling (what those nasty Catholics call "natural law") from being raised in the Christian faith and practicing it my whole life aside from a small period of apostasy in my early 20s.  

When you get married (or enter into a long term cohabitating relationship that, for all intents and purposes outside the law, is marriage and if you don't think it is (legal standing aside), you're fooling yourself: get your head out of your anal cavity), your body is no longer your own.  It belongs to your partner/spouse.  Taking matters into your own hands, even if you're thinking about that other person, is an incredibly selfish act, one that mars the relationship by saying, in effect, "I don't need you.  I don't want you.  I'm not giving myself to you anymore, I'm just taking."  

As Christians, we are not. supposed. to. do. that.  Your spouse is you.  You no longer live for yourself.  This is why monks often say that living as a married person in the world is more difficult than living as a hermetic monastic.  It's easy to be responsible for oneself; it's incredibly hard to be responsible for another, to the point of dying for the other person, if need be.  By wanking, you are, in effect, living for yourself and not for the other.  THAT is why it is sinful.  NO Christian worth his salt should be living for himself but ready to lay down the life for his friends.  All this yapping about conditions and Onanism and the like misses the point.  Indeed, some of us who are most critical of Thomism sound like doctors of scholasticism; the reasons given in this thread as to when and why masturbation is alright and even laudable would make the head spin of the most Talmudic of rabbis.  When you masturbate, no matter who you are thinking of, you are no longer living for the other and no longer doing God's will, but your own.  We are to constantly strive to do God's will and live for someone else.

But, at the same time, in the great scheme of things, it's no big deal.  It's a sin.  Accept it as such, confess it when you do it, and get over it.  Don't let it frack your live up, because it will.  That little hormone that's released right at the moment of ejaculation is incredibly addictive.  You know what I'm talking about.  Don't fool yourself.  I said I wasn't going to quote Scripture, but what St. Paul meant about marriage being given to us to soothe the burning is that even that the base animal impetus to massage a sexual organ for pleasure can have a wonderful and truly inspiring and self-emptying consequence when one offers that part of one's life to the partner of a marriage bed.  

Now stop playing with yourself and go to confession. Wink
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 04:36:23 PM by Schultz » Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
acts420
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: the Way
Jurisdiction: Jesus the Anointed One
Posts: 310



WWW
« Reply #95 on: May 02, 2012, 04:36:52 PM »

Something I've been wondering for quite a while as well although I have never explicitely asked it, although I have mentioned my excessive habit of it. *sigh* Why does everything that feels good have to be bad or condemned? I know that all of the Fathers and everyone I ask would say that sexual pleasure is not bad if it is in the marriage context, but times have changed. Back when the Fathers and everything said this, it was not as heavy a burden to wait until marriage because you could get married at like age 14, but now most people do not even get married until their twenties. So clearly we have a much heavier burden on us in present times in terms of abstinence than the Fathers anticipated when they spoke of this. If I have to wait so long until I can really have sex, then I see no reason why I should not be allowed to masturbate to pass the time. If I am really expected to give all of this up for such a long time, then there is no hope for me because I can't and I do not even know if I am willing to. Masturbation is the one pleasure that makes everything to me feel better. And now I have to give it up? Sad

It doesn't have to be bad for you.  It has to be bad for many though because, unfortunately:
"The Spirit clearly said that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons... They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.  If you point these things out to the brothers and sisters, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed." (1 Timothy 4)

We have been warned that many will infect the church with legalism the same what the Pharisees infected Judaism.  If something brings joy, expect many in the church to tell you it is bad.  But don't necessarily listen to them.  Sometimes the things that can become sinful in excess or when used the wrong way are actually gifts from God when used properly and in moderation.
Logged

In Christ,
Jason
www.acts420.com
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 29,459



« Reply #96 on: May 02, 2012, 04:41:33 PM »

You are supposed to avoid lust if you can (see, for example, Matt. 5:27-28). There are other ideas for why people say you shouldn't masturbate, but the lust reason usually covers most people.

That passage does not say to avoid lust.  If you condemn all who lust then you condemn even Jesus Christ and His Holy Apostle.  For even Christ said, "With lust (epithymia) I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer.'"  (Luke 22:16)  Likewise, the Holy Apostle said, "But, brothers and sisters, when we were orphaned by being separated from you for a short time, out of our lust (epithymia) we made every effort to see you."  (1 Thessalonians 2:17)   See also 1 Timothy 6:9, "Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful lusts (epithymia) that plunge people into ruin and destruction." 

There are harmful lusts on one hand while, on the other hand, there are holy and honorable lusts.  The good contexts or bad contexts are what make the intense desires good or bad.  Intense desire, "lust," "epithymia," is not sinful in and of itself.

The passage from Matthew you cited says, “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’  But I tell you that anyone who looks at a wife lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."  The context is adultery, and the sinful act is looking at another man's wife with intense desire (epithymia).  That's all the passage says.  Lust for your own wife, or perhaps even your future wife, is never condemned in holy Scripture.  In fact, such lusts are sung about joyfully in the Song of Solomon.

True, the word used in the Gospel can mean both wife or any woman generally. You argue for wife based on the word adultery being part of the context, but I think there is another type of context to consider: the cultural context. At that time girls would have had their marriages planned (and taken place) by the early teens. Thus if you were looking at an attractive girl who wasn't someone's wife or fiancee you were probably looking at a kid. In that case, you had bigger issues to deal with than ordinary old lust. But the larger question I would have is, how did Christians throughout the centuries interpret the passage? Based on what I've read, they seemed to speak against lust generally, and didn't give allowances in the rare occasions that someone a bit older was unmarried. To complement this, they said the same thing about young teenaged boys. True, some had exaggerated (=distorted) ideas about this, but I'm not sure I've come across a Father yet who says lust is ok. St. John Chrysostom and perhaps others say that natural attraction is ok, but then lust is a distortion of natural attraction.
Logged

Building up my spiritual life one blurry avatar at a time!
acts420
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: the Way
Jurisdiction: Jesus the Anointed One
Posts: 310



WWW
« Reply #97 on: May 02, 2012, 04:48:37 PM »

... This is my take on it, a take from someone who literally jerked away one good relationship that was leading to marriage and has, at times, come dangerously close to doing the same within my marriage.

When you get married ... your body is no longer your own.  It belongs to your partner/spouse.  Taking matters into your own hands, even if you're thinking about that other person, is an incredibly selfish act...  By wanking, you are, in effect, living for yourself and not for the other.  THAT is why it is sinful.

But, at the same time, in the great scheme of things, it's no big deal.  It's a sin.  Accept it as such, confess it when you do it, and get over it.  Don't let it frack your live up, because it will.  That little hormone that's released right at the moment of ejaculation is incredibly addictive.  You know what I'm talking about.  Don't fool yourself.  ... Now stop playing with yourself and go to confession. Wink

My personal opinion is that masturbation can be good or sinful; it depends.  You limited yourself to the marital context, so I'll follow you there.  You correctly said that your body is not your own when you're married.  However, that doesn't make masturbation a sin.  There are many wives who would ask or even beg their man to masturbate if his drive is very much higher than hers.  Or visa versa.  There are all kinds of people out there.  We can't just willy nilly judge everyone by the standards we've learned to judge ourselves by.

I really don't think the answer for everyone is "masturbation is our cross, a problem" and, "no masturbation is just a goal to shoot for... we can't expect to be perfect."   That seems terribly unhealthy and totally unnatural to me.  Masturbation is something God created.  Infants do it.  There is nothing wrong with it per se.  Now it may be wrong for you or for me if we sense it becoming unhealthy in our lives or if the Spirit leads us away from in whatever context we're living in.  I'm sorry to hear it became a problem for you.  But there is no reason to categorize it as "a problem" for everyone.  If it doesn't bother someone's conscience and he wants to do it once in a while, then he can do it.

Yes, it is "addictive" as you say (or at least can be).  But so is alcohol.  

It is good to realize that we need to be growing in perfection.  But I think it is damaging to say, "Oh, such and such is a sin but we can't stop doing it so just get over it, and confess it regularly."  We can stop sinning and we must.  We can't help but sin un-intentionally, but we can and must avoid deliberate, intentional sin.  If masturbation is a sin, then we need to stop doing it.  Period.  

Man-made teachings that have no real basis in Scripture or the Fathers (like the teaching that masturbation is a sin) only serve to make people think Christianity is a harder religion than it is.  Jesus said, "Come to me, my burden is easy."  Of course it is also difficult, it is not only a bed of roses.  But in context (Matthew 11 and 12), Christ was saying His way is easy when comparing His way to the legalistic religious peoples way.  They often forbid important pleasures in life.  For instance, back then they forbade being alone with a single woman, or often even sitting next to her.  Many forbade certain sexual positions even in marriage.  They may have even forbade masturbation.  They forbade all sorts of things.

These religious legalistic people still today have all sorts of rules that are extremely difficult for many to follow, and Christ's point was that His Way was easy compared to theirs.

"Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?"  Acts 15:10
Logged

In Christ,
Jason
www.acts420.com
acts420
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: the Way
Jurisdiction: Jesus the Anointed One
Posts: 310



WWW
« Reply #98 on: May 02, 2012, 04:49:17 PM »

...Masturbation is the one pleasure that makes everything to me feel better. And now I have to give it up? Sad

Well, they are called crosses (that you're suppose to be carrying)...

I'm not being flippant. I'm in the same position as you, really. I'm just saying, it's not easy, but what are you gonna do? Some things are harder to deal with, some easier.

I just tell myself to not excuse things, but also not to get down about them. "Be perfect" is a goal to shoot for, not an expectation that we will probably achieve at this very moment. (actually I would argue that we'll never achieve it, because we'll always be growing more perfect)

Don't treat it like a non-issue, but also don't let it destroy your progress you are making. Also, use it as a reminder when you want to judge someone else. Maybe someone else's problem is just as difficult to overcome for them as this is for us.

I really don't think the answer is to say "masturbation is our cross, a problem" and, "no masturbation is just a goal to shoot for... we can't expect to be perfect."   That seems terribly unhealthy and totally unnatural to me.  Masturbation is something God created.  Infants do it.  There is nothing wrong with it per se.  Now it may be wrong for you or for me if we sense it becoming unhealthy in our lives or if the Spirit leads us away from in whatever context we're living in.   But there is no reason to simply categorize it as "a problem" or "a cross" for everyone.  If it doesn't bother someone's conscience and he wants to do it once in a while, then he can do it.

It is good to realize that we need to be growing in perfection.  But I think it is damaging to say, "Oh, such and such is a sin but we can't stop doing it so just get over it."  We can stop sinning and we must.  We can't help but sin un-intentionally, but we can and must avoid deliberate, intentional sin.  If masturbation is a sin, then we need to stop doing it.  Period.  Man-made teachings that have no real basis in Scripture or the Fathers (like the teaching that masturbation is a sin) only serve to make people think Christianity is a harder religion than it is.

Jesus said, "Come to me, my burden is easy."  Of course it is also difficult, it is not only a bed of roses.  But in context (Matthew 11 and 12), Christ was saying His way is easy when comparing His way to the legalistic religious peoples way.  They often forbid important pleasures in life.  For instance, back then they forbade being alone with a single woman, or often even sitting next to her.  Many forbade certain sexual positions even in marriage.  They may have even forbade masturbation.  They forbade all sorts of things.

These religious legalistic people have all sorts of rules that are extremely difficult to follow, and Christ's point was that His Way was easy compared to theirs.  

"Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?"  Acts 15:10
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 04:50:21 PM by acts420 » Logged

In Christ,
Jason
www.acts420.com
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,467


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #99 on: May 02, 2012, 04:50:39 PM »

Still missing the point, but whatever.  Do what you want.  I have my own sins (being a wanker included) to worry about. 
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
KBN1
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: EO
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 888



« Reply #100 on: May 02, 2012, 04:51:18 PM »

I've been reading this thread and trying to formulate a decent response (which this probably isn't but I can't hold it in any longer) to all the manure being spread about in here about masturbation and...oh, hell, I'm just going to call it what it is because it's a vulgar thing to begin with (note, the rest of this post will probably ruffle the feathers of the more innocent among us, you know who you are): anyone trying to justify beating off are just a bunch of wankers.  Period.  And you're proving it.

This is my take on it, a take from someone who literally jerked away one good relationship that was leading to marriage and has, at times, come dangerously close to doing the same within my marriage.  I am only going to talk about this topic within the confines of a marriage (including non-married cohabitating couples) relationship because that's what I'm familiar with.  I'm not going to quote this Father or that Bible verse because that's a bunch of bull$#!+ to and anyone that does that to justify mono-masturbation knows it.  I'm going with the gut feeling (what those nasty Catholics call "natural law") from being raised in the Christian faith and practicing it my whole life aside from a small period of apostasy in my early 20s.  

When you get married (or enter into a long term cohabitating relationship that, for all intents and purposes outside the law, is marriage and if you don't think it is (legal standing aside), you're fooling yourself: get your head out of your anal cavity), your body is no longer your own.  It belongs to your partner/spouse.  Taking matters into your own hands, even if you're thinking about that other person, is an incredibly selfish act, one that mars the relationship by saying, in effect, "I don't need you.  I don't want you.  I'm not giving myself to you anymore, I'm just taking."  

As Christians, we are not. supposed. to. do. that.  Your spouse is you.  You no longer live for yourself.  This is why monks often say that living as a married person in the world is more difficult than living as a hermetic monastic.  It's easy to be responsible for oneself; it's incredibly hard to be responsible for another, to the point of dying for the other person, if need be.  By wanking, you are, in effect, living for yourself and not for the other.  THAT is why it is sinful.  NO Christian worth his salt should be living for himself but ready to lay down the life for his friends.  All this yapping about conditions and Onanism and the like misses the point.  Indeed, some of us who are most critical of Thomism sound like doctors of scholasticism; the reasons given in this thread as to when and why masturbation is alright and even laudable would make the head spin of the most Talmudic of rabbis.  When you masturbate, no matter who you are thinking of, you are no longer living for the other and no longer doing God's will, but your own.  We are to constantly strive to do God's will and live for someone else.

But, at the same time, in the great scheme of things, it's no big deal.  It's a sin.  Accept it as such, confess it when you do it, and get over it.  Don't let it frack your live up, because it will.  That little hormone that's released right at the moment of ejaculation is incredibly addictive.  You know what I'm talking about.  Don't fool yourself.  I said I wasn't going to quote Scripture, but what St. Paul meant about marriage being given to us to soothe the burning is that even that the base animal impetus to massage a sexual organ for pleasure can have a wonderful and truly inspiring and self-emptying consequence when one offers that part of one's life to the partner of a marriage bed.  

Now stop playing with yourself and go to confession. Wink

Whoa.  +1
Logged
acts420
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: the Way
Jurisdiction: Jesus the Anointed One
Posts: 310



WWW
« Reply #101 on: May 02, 2012, 04:57:11 PM »

Something I've been wondering for quite a while as well although I have never explicitely asked it, although I have mentioned my excessive habit of it. *sigh* Why does everything that feels good have to be bad or condemned? I know that all of the Fathers and everyone I ask would say that sexual pleasure is not bad if it is in the marriage context, but times have changed. Back when the Fathers and everything said this, it was not as heavy a burden to wait until marriage because you could get married at like age 14, but now most people do not even get married until their twenties. So clearly we have a much heavier burden on us in present times in terms of abstinence than the Fathers anticipated when they spoke of this. If I have to wait so long until I can really have sex, then I see no reason why I should not be allowed to masturbate to pass the time. If I am really expected to give all of this up for such a long time, then there is no hope for me because I can't and I do not even know if I am willing to. Masturbation is the one pleasure that makes everything to me feel better. And now I have to give it up? Sad

"Everything that feels good has to be bad or condemned" because there are many who make themselves feel more righteous than they are by setting up false systems of rules and creating "sins" where there are none.  In 1 Timothy 4 the Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.  Those teachings come from a very similar mindset as the Pharisees teachings.  They forbid pleasures that God created.  They often call them "sin," and they often highlight their abusive and addictive potential.   They do this with sexual things, plants and drinks, and all sorts of things.  The Southern Baptists have been particularly bad, as have the Mormons, but these evil spirits infect orthodoxy too.

But the truth is that "everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer." 

If masturbation is causing trouble in your heart and life, then stop it.  If it isn't, then there is no reason to stop as far as the holy Scriptures or the holy Fathers.  That's what I say.
Logged

In Christ,
Jason
www.acts420.com
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 29,459



« Reply #102 on: May 02, 2012, 04:59:37 PM »

Still missing the point, but whatever.  Do what you want.  I have my own sins (being a wanker included) to worry about. 

I can't speak to your experiences, nor would I say you are wrong in what you've said. And I think how God views things might be a separate issue from what I'm about to say. However, in the marriage I was in masturbation was not simply all about self-gratification. It was something we both wished the other person to do. When I masturbated I wasn't trying to tell her that she wasn't needed. She was usually the one sitting there encouraging me (and vice versa). Is that a perversion? Perhaps... but in any event, my point is only that it doesn't have to be some selfish, relationship-destroying act, if the people involved are of a certain mentality.
Logged

Building up my spiritual life one blurry avatar at a time!
acts420
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: the Way
Jurisdiction: Jesus the Anointed One
Posts: 310



WWW
« Reply #103 on: May 02, 2012, 05:08:16 PM »

True, the word used in the Gospel can mean both wife or any woman generally. You argue for wife based on the word adultery being part of the context, but I think there is another type of context to consider: the cultural context. At that time girls would have had their marriages planned (and taken place) by the early teens. Thus if you were looking at an attractive girl who wasn't someone's wife or fiancee you were probably looking at a kid. In that case, you had bigger issues to deal with than ordinary old lust. But the larger question I would have is, how did Christians throughout the centuries interpret the passage? Based on what I've read, they seemed to speak against lust generally, and didn't give allowances in the rare occasions that someone a bit older was unmarried. To complement this, they said the same thing about young teenaged boys. True, some had exaggerated (=distorted) ideas about this, but I'm not sure I've come across a Father yet who says lust is ok. St. John Chrysostom and perhaps others say that natural attraction is ok, but then lust is a distortion of natural attraction.

I disagree.  I don't think all girls would have been married by their early teens.  I don't know who told you that, but there were certainly women that were not taken.  And Christ did not ever teach us that it is always a sin to look at or even to intensely desire such women.  Read the Song of Solomon.  The couple intensely desired ("lusted") for one another before and after the wedding.  Intense desire seems to be what often forms holy marriage.  And therefore, those who forbid it fall under the condemnation of 1 Timothy chapter 4 ("hindering marriage") in my opinion.

Indeed, when the Savior met St. Photina (the Samaritan woman at the well) and called her to Himself, she was a woman who was not married.  So they were out there, walking around.  She happened to be living with a man, but of course Christ did not condemn her for it.  He did not deal with her as he dealt with the adulteress who he he told to "go and sin no more."  He had no such condemnation for St. Photina even though she was living with ("lusting for") an unmarried man and he for her.  Lust outside of the the context of adultery is not always sinful. 

Certainly anything can become destructive and sinful, even seemingly harmless foods.  But I don't think that most Christians speak against "lust" ("intense desire") generally in history.  As I've already shown in Christian Scripture above, there is good lust and bad lust.  Lust is simply intense desire; the ethics of lust depend entirely on the context.  Christians speak against certain lusts in certain contexts throughout history, but it is a very un-Christian thing to simply say "lust" is a sin.  Many say it, but that doesn't make it true or right.  To say "lust is sin" and leave it at that would be to call Christ himself a sinner since Scripture says He lusted for things.

There is good lust and bad lust.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 05:16:10 PM by acts420 » Logged

In Christ,
Jason
www.acts420.com
ZealousZeal
Gainsaying Helpmeet
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: ✔
Posts: 2,673


Never cease to intercede for us, your children.


« Reply #104 on: May 02, 2012, 05:38:38 PM »

...In fact, such lusts are sung about joyfully in the Song of Solomon.

... In fact, such lusts are sung about joyfully in the Song of Solomon...

Read the Song of Solomon.


You keep saying that, but

Logged

"For this God is our God forever and ever; He will be our guide, even to the end." Psalm 48:14
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: On-n-Off
Jurisdiction: OCA (the only truly Canonical American Orthodox Church)
Posts: 5,420


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #105 on: May 02, 2012, 05:56:39 PM »

Either way, I know that the way I have been masturbating is sinful. I could definitely cut down from it and stop letting it affect me in other areas of my life, like not being able to sleep unless I do it or dreading sharing a room with anyone because that means I cannot do it.
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 12,939


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #106 on: May 02, 2012, 06:01:55 PM »

I guess the danger these days is that someone who does stuff to themselves could get into things like porn addiction, and if they have a partner, may start to prefer solitary activity to things with their partner. Temptation is as old as humanity, and yes it's tough to resist, but I think it's dangerous to presume upon the Lord's forgiveness by saying, "It doesn't matter. So I'll throw caution to the wind."

One of the ways Confession helps people, is to refresh their intake of God's grace, so they can resist persistent temptations. We shouldn't look at is as a punishment, but as one of the ways God heals us.
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
ironchapman
A bull of truth in the china shop of falsehoods.
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Serious inquirer into Orthodoxy.
Posts: 776



« Reply #107 on: May 02, 2012, 06:06:36 PM »

I must admit that this thread is one of the most interesting threads I've seen in a while.

Either way, I know that the way I have been masturbating is sinful. I could definitely cut down from it and stop letting it affect me in other areas of my life, like not being able to sleep unless I do it or dreading sharing a room with anyone because that means I cannot do it.
Trust me, man, you aren't alone. There are many out there struggling like you are.
Logged

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." --Bertrand Russell
acts420
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: the Way
Jurisdiction: Jesus the Anointed One
Posts: 310



WWW
« Reply #108 on: May 02, 2012, 06:23:14 PM »

Either way, I know that the way I have been masturbating is sinful. I could definitely cut down from it and stop letting it affect me in other areas of my life, like not being able to sleep unless I do it or dreading sharing a room with anyone because that means I cannot do it.

Then, for what its worth, my advice would be to find the roots of the masturbation and cut that down.  Then the "masturbation problems" will mostly take care of themselves, I think.  So, for instance, men should not walk around staring intently at particularly appealing parts of women all day, or take many breaks at work to look up revealing pictures on the internet, and then wonder why it is difficult to sleep that night without the release that masturbation provides.  I'm not saying this is your problem, but it is certainly a problem for many of us men.

Learning how to control ourselves sexually is not simply a matter of having the discipline to keep our hand out of our pants.  It is a matter of learning how our body works, learning what the roots of our desires are, and avoiding the thoughts, glances, and areas that cause us temptation.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 06:34:20 PM by acts420 » Logged

In Christ,
Jason
www.acts420.com
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,322



« Reply #109 on: May 02, 2012, 06:25:55 PM »

Still missing the point, but whatever.  Do what you want.  I have my own sins (being a wanker included) to worry about. 

I can't speak to your experiences, nor would I say you are wrong in what you've said. And I think how God views things might be a separate issue from what I'm about to say. However, in the marriage I was in masturbation was not simply all about self-gratification. It was something we both wished the other person to do. When I masturbated I wasn't trying to tell her that she wasn't needed. She was usually the one sitting there encouraging me (and vice versa). Is that a perversion? Perhaps... but in any event, my point is only that it doesn't have to be some selfish, relationship-destroying act, if the people involved are of a certain mentality.
I was thinking about what bothers me about Mark Driscoll's approach this matters (sex in general, not just masturbation, mutual or otherwise).  It struck me that he is the other side of the "one size fits all" coin with the "natural law" types etc.  Pastoring the intimacies of couples on a person on person basis is one thing.  Broadcasting to a mass audience is quite another.

I was looking at the site where I got this
Just stumbled on this, on "form":
Quote
“This is a debate about ends and means which is in fact a loser for the contraception-user.”
Not if certain cardinals have their way regarding HIV, according to rumors. Might this be changing?
re “form”: Why and how is form all of a sudden so important with regards to marital love? because marital love is so important and so great? aren’t lots of things important and great and transcendent, like, say, breastfeeding? is formula feeding deforming of the act of maternal love? and if you don’t konw the answer, isn’t it curious that church fathers (note no caps! no caps!) haven’t hashed out this particular question while they have hashed out others?
http://blog.beliefnet.com/viamedia/2006/04/contraception-debate.html
where the discussion revolved a lot about the Terodes and their advocacy, then abandonment, of the HV/natural law ideas of "NFP" and their subsequent fall into liberal Protestantism.   The "NFP" brigade were rather strident in their insistence on their diagnosis of the Terodes:"they didn't really commit to NFP" blah blah blah, completely ignoring the Terodes very frank admissions about their change.  They weren't a couple to the "NFP" crowd, just a philosophical construct, who didn't fit the party line anymore.  Perry Robinson (I wish he'd come here.  To the board, not this thread in particular), as usual, made a profound statement about the pitfalls of dealing with "essences and natures" rather than "persons."

Fr. George's post was good especially that "this answer must be comprehensive, covering the various physical (addiction), social (withdrawl, disordered view of relationships, etc.), and spiritual ailments it (and its usual compatriot, pornography) can lead to."  However some are never addicted though they do it (the studies show it being extremely common, but yet the majority of the population manage to do something else), some do it with no disordered view of relationships or withdrawl (studies show that it a third or more common among the divorced or widowed, where the relationship is nonexistent), and it does not necessarily require pornography as its compatriot (when I went to the lab to give a sample, I had no need of visual aids.  Btw, I think a lot a wrangling that goes on how to comduct fertility testing/treatments within the parameters of HV exposes HV for the nonsense it is).  One reason why the category of "mortal" sins in general and the characterization of this as a "mortal sin" in particular is baseless.

Lust is a sin.  If masturbation includes lust, then it is as well.  Denying your spouse is a sin.  If masturbation induces you to choose yourself over your spouse, it is a sin.  If makes you miss your prayers, it is a sin.  If it makes you neglect/lose your job, it is a sin.  If it leads you to shun normal relationships in a marriage, it is a sin.  The list can go on.  What it doesn't include is "a waste of seed."

Basically, on its own (and just sticking with auto-eroticism, leaving out mutual masturbation), I see it like smoking.  If you are doing it with someone not your spouse, most of us here except for Acts420 have our act together on fornication's definition.  If you are doing it with someone not your spouse, and you are married, or they are, adultery is also simply defined without having to get into the nitty gritty of the status of masturbation.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: On-n-Off
Jurisdiction: OCA (the only truly Canonical American Orthodox Church)
Posts: 5,420


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #110 on: May 02, 2012, 06:29:09 PM »

I do not know about the rest of you, but if I ever get married and have children one day, I really hope that I do not have a boy so that I do not have to ever walk in on him masturbating or anything, or have to lecture him about porn and stuff. I know that my mother once walked in on me masturbating and it was one of the most embarassing moments of my life.
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
ironchapman
A bull of truth in the china shop of falsehoods.
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Serious inquirer into Orthodoxy.
Posts: 776



« Reply #111 on: May 02, 2012, 06:33:36 PM »

I do not know about the rest of you, but if I ever get married and have children one day, I really hope that I do not have a boy so that I do not have to ever walk in on him masturbating or anything, or have to lecture him about porn and stuff. I know that my mother once walked in on me masturbating and it was one of the most embarassing moments of my life.
Heh, yes it is.

Quite frankly, my parents, who are generally pretty traditional in their attitudes towards sexual matters told me that as long as I did it in my room and not elsewhere in the house, they didn't care. Though I must admit that sort of attitude probably exacerbated the struggle.
Logged

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." --Bertrand Russell
ironchapman
A bull of truth in the china shop of falsehoods.
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Serious inquirer into Orthodoxy.
Posts: 776



« Reply #112 on: May 02, 2012, 06:34:39 PM »


Lust is a sin.  If masturbation includes lust, then it is as well.  Denying your spouse is a sin.  If masturbation induces you to choose yourself over your spouse, it is a sin.  If makes you miss your prayers, it is a sin.  If it makes you neglect/lose your job, it is a sin.  If it leads you to shun normal relationships in a marriage, it is a sin.  The list can go on.  What it doesn't include is "a waste of seed."

Basically, on its own (and just sticking with auto-eroticism, leaving out mutual masturbation), I see it like smoking.  If you are doing it with someone not your spouse, most of us here except for Acts420 have our act together on fornication's definition.  If you are doing it with someone not your spouse, and you are married, or they are, adultery is also simply defined without having to get into the nitty gritty of the status of masturbation.

Just for clarification, what do you mean by that?
Logged

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." --Bertrand Russell
acts420
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: the Way
Jurisdiction: Jesus the Anointed One
Posts: 310



WWW
« Reply #113 on: May 02, 2012, 06:41:04 PM »

I do not know about the rest of you, but if I ever get married and have children one day, I really hope that I do not have a boy so that I do not have to ever walk in on him masturbating or anything, or have to lecture him about porn and stuff. I know that my mother once walked in on me masturbating and it was one of the most embarassing moments of my life.

I look forward to perhaps having a boy and teaching him about sexuality.  It would be nice to actually give a kid a chance.  So many parents ignore passing sexual wisdom along for whatever reason, often probably because they have none.  Often the "sex talk" from parents, even Christian parents, is simply, "Don't do it until marriage."  They often don't even define "it."  "Sex" can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people.  These parents pass on virtually no wisdom as to how to deal with these incredibly powerful desires God created most of us with, and the "wisdom" they do pass on isn't even from Scripture or the early Fathers!  And then they wonder why so many kids are completely screwing up sexually.  They don't even give their children a snowballs chance in hell.

Haha... that's gotta be rough, having your mom walk in on you.  I had a friend who's mom found a porn picture he had under his bed.  He was eating dinner that night, totally unaware, when he looked on the refrigerator and saw his picture pinned there.  He spit out his food and turned beat red.  I can't remember which, but he either said he never brought porn in their house again or perhaps never even looked at it again!
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 06:43:21 PM by acts420 » Logged

In Christ,
Jason
www.acts420.com
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,087


WWW
« Reply #114 on: May 02, 2012, 06:47:45 PM »


Lust is a sin.  If masturbation includes lust, then it is as well.  Denying your spouse is a sin.  If masturbation induces you to choose yourself over your spouse, it is a sin.  If makes you miss your prayers, it is a sin.  If it makes you neglect/lose your job, it is a sin.  If it leads you to shun normal relationships in a marriage, it is a sin.  The list can go on.  What it doesn't include is "a waste of seed."

Basically, on its own (and just sticking with auto-eroticism, leaving out mutual masturbation), I see it like smoking.  If you are doing it with someone not your spouse, most of us here except for Acts420 have our act together on fornication's definition.  If you are doing it with someone not your spouse, and you are married, or they are, adultery is also simply defined without having to get into the nitty gritty of the status of masturbation.

Just for clarification, what do you mean by that?

Replace lust with harming yourself....

Harming yourself is a sin.  If smoking includes harming yourself, then smoking is a sin.  If you have go without food because of buying cigarettes, that is a sin, etc.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,322



« Reply #115 on: May 02, 2012, 06:53:22 PM »

True, the word used in the Gospel can mean both wife or any woman generally. You argue for wife based on the word adultery being part of the context, but I think there is another type of context to consider: the cultural context. At that time girls would have had their marriages planned (and taken place) by the early teens. Thus if you were looking at an attractive girl who wasn't someone's wife or fiancee you were probably looking at a kid. In that case, you had bigger issues to deal with than ordinary old lust. But the larger question I would have is, how did Christians throughout the centuries interpret the passage? Based on what I've read, they seemed to speak against lust generally, and didn't give allowances in the rare occasions that someone a bit older was unmarried. To complement this, they said the same thing about young teenaged boys. True, some had exaggerated (=distorted) ideas about this, but I'm not sure I've come across a Father yet who says lust is ok. St. John Chrysostom and perhaps others say that natural attraction is ok, but then lust is a distortion of natural attraction.

I disagree.
Shocker.
I don't think all girls would have been married by their early teens.  I don't know who told you that, but there were certainly women that were not taken.
 
Hence the term "old maid."  Some died before their early teens.  Many died before they reached thirty.  If they wanted children-and nearly all did-early teens was when to strike the iron while it was hot.

Btw, their is plenty of evidence that yes, marrying in their early teens was nearly the universal norm.

And Christ did not ever teach us that it is always a sin to look at or even to intensely desire such women.
Yes, He did.  Read the Sermon on the Mount.

Read the Song of Solomon.
I have. Christ has.  Have you.

The couple intensely desired ("lusted")
Your word.  Not the Lord's.  Not the Church's. Not Solomon's.

for one another before and after the wedding.  Intense desire seems to be what often forms holy marriage.
and lust destroys it.
And therefore, those who forbid it fall under the condemnation of 1 Timothy chapter 4 ("hindering marriage") in my opinion.
and in the Church's (and the Lord's) opinion you fall under the condemnation of II Peter chapter 3 ("twist to their own destruction")
Quote
15 And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

Indeed, when the Savior met St. Photina (the Samaritan woman at the well) and called her to Himself, she was a woman who was not married.  So they were out there, walking around.  She happened to be living with a man, but of course Christ did not condemn her for it.
LOL. Boy, talk about a pretzel.

Christ asked her specifically about her husband to point out that she wasn't really married, though she had been "married" many times, including to the one she was living with.

He did not deal with her as he dealt with the adulteress who he he told to "go and sin no more."  He had no such condemnation for St. Photina even though she was living with ("lusting for") an unmarried man and he for her.
reading a lot in there.  That's called eisogesis, btw.  Reading the Bible is suposed to go the other way: exogesis.

You get the name "St. Photina" from Tradition.  What does it say about her marital situation?

Lust outside of the the context of adultery is not always sinful.
Inside marriage/outside marriage, lust is always sinful.

Certainly anything can become destructive and sinful, even seemingly harmless foods.  But I don't think that most Christians speak against "lust" ("intense desire") generally in history.

then you haven't a clue about history.

As I've already shown in Christian Scripture above, there is good lust and bad lust.
You have shown no such thing.  you have just yelled into an echo chamber and thought you heard something.

Lust is bad. Evil. Period.

Lust is simply intense desire
you go with the Devil's Dictionary. I'll stick with Webster's.

the ethics of lust depend entirely on the context.

That they do, as to how evil the lust is.  Not on it being good.

Christians speak against certain lusts in certain contexts throughout history, but it is a very un-Christian thing to simply say "lust" is a sin.
when you are catachised, it is "kata" according to "echo" the echo.  It is supposed to be the echo of the Fathers through the Church.  Not you talking to yourself.

Many say it, but that doesn't make it true or right.
that many say it in the whole consensus of Tradition makes it true and right.

One voice spouting idiocies doesn't make it true or right.

To say "lust is sin" and leave it at that would be to call Christ himself a sinner since Scripture says He lusted for things.
Book?  Chapter? Verse?

There is good lust and bad lust.
Just evil lust.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,322



« Reply #116 on: May 02, 2012, 06:55:45 PM »

I do not know about the rest of you, but if I ever get married and have children one day, I really hope that I do not have a boy so that I do not have to ever walk in on him masturbating or anything, or have to lecture him about porn and stuff. I know that my mother once walked in on me masturbating and it was one of the most embarassing moments of my life.

I look forward to perhaps having a boy and teaching him about sexuality.  It would be nice to actually give a kid a chance.  So many parents ignore passing sexual wisdom along for whatever reason, often probably because they have none.  Often the "sex talk" from parents, even Christian parents, is simply, "Don't do it until marriage."  They often don't even define "it."  "Sex" can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people.  These parents pass on virtually no wisdom as to how to deal with these incredibly powerful desires God created most of us with, and the "wisdom" they do pass on isn't even from Scripture or the early Fathers!  And then they wonder why so many kids are completely screwing up sexually.  They don't even give their children a snowballs chance in hell.

Haha... that's gotta be rough, having your mom walk in on you.  I had a friend who's mom found a porn picture he had under his bed.  He was eating dinner that night, totally unaware, when he looked on the refrigerator and saw his picture pinned there.  He spit out his food and turned beat red.  I can't remember which, but he either said he never brought porn in their house again or perhaps never even looked at it again!
So, a mother raising her son right.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,322



« Reply #117 on: May 02, 2012, 07:07:28 PM »


Lust is a sin.  If masturbation includes lust, then it is as well.  Denying your spouse is a sin.  If masturbation induces you to choose yourself over your spouse, it is a sin.  If makes you miss your prayers, it is a sin.  If it makes you neglect/lose your job, it is a sin.  If it leads you to shun normal relationships in a marriage, it is a sin.  The list can go on.  What it doesn't include is "a waste of seed."

Basically, on its own (and just sticking with auto-eroticism, leaving out mutual masturbation), I see it like smoking.  If you are doing it with someone not your spouse, most of us here except for Acts420 have our act together on fornication's definition.  If you are doing it with someone not your spouse, and you are married, or they are, adultery is also simply defined without having to get into the nitty gritty of the status of masturbation.

Just for clarification, what do you mean by that?

Replace lust with harming yourself....

Harming yourself is a sin.  If smoking includes harming yourself, then smoking is a sin.  If you have go without food because of buying cigarettes, that is a sin, etc.
Basically, yeah.  Except that smoking is not banned/forbidden, nor always deadly.  I used to smoke socially.  Probably still would, but most of the smokers I know have died off.  Doing coke was a different matter (even if it were only once, still bad, always deadly, etc.).

Would you be better off not to smoke.  Sure, most would. 

Perhaps to further clarify, I ought to repeat that take, for instance, a wife manually bringing her husband to orgasm. Just on that basis, some would hold one of them or both of them as guilty of mortal sin.  Some would say venial sin. Some would just say sin.  Just on that basis, I would say no sin at all.

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,322



« Reply #118 on: May 02, 2012, 07:11:13 PM »

I do not know about the rest of you, but if I ever get married and have children one day, I really hope that I do not have a boy so that I do not have to ever walk in on him masturbating or anything, or have to lecture him about porn and stuff. I know that my mother once walked in on me masturbating and it was one of the most embarassing moments of my life.
Would you feel better walking in on your daughter?

If you have a daughter, you are still her father.  You had better talk to her about porn and stuff.  If you don't, she will find another man to teach her.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
acts420
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: the Way
Jurisdiction: Jesus the Anointed One
Posts: 310



WWW
« Reply #119 on: May 02, 2012, 07:31:48 PM »

And Christ did not ever teach us that it is always a sin to look at or even to intensely desire such women.
Yes, He did.  Read the Sermon on the Mount.

I have.  He didn't.  He said looking at a wife with lust is adultery.  Seriously.  Read it for yourself.

Read the Song of Solomon.
I have. Christ has.  Have you.

Yes, I have read the Song many times.

The couple intensely desired ("lusted")
Your word.  Not the Lord's.  Not the Church's. Not Solomon's.

My observation.  Read the book and anyone can see much of it is about their intense desires for one another.  "Lust" is an English word meaning "intense desire."  Again, there is nothing inherently wrong with lust.  Even Christ is said to have "lusted" for things in Scripture, and Paul, in passages I've already cited in this thread.

for one another before and after the wedding.  Intense desire seems to be what often forms holy marriage.
and lust destroys it.

Intense desire, aka "lust," is a wonderful part of holy marriage.  It can also destroy holy marriage.  It depends on where and how the couple channels their intense desires.  You're over simplifying things at the expense of holy marriage.

Indeed, when the Savior met St. Photina (the Samaritan woman at the well) and called her to Himself, she was a woman who was not married.  So they were out there, walking around.  She happened to be living with a man, but of course Christ did not condemn her for it.
LOL. Boy, talk about a pretzel.

Christ asked her specifically about her husband to point out that she wasn't really married, though she had been "married" many times, including to the one she was living with.

She had never been "married."  You don't know why Christ pointed that out.  He didn't say her living situation was sinful; he didn't tell her to stop.  He told the adulteress to stop sinning.  This is further support for my understanding that Christ simply said lusting for another's wife is sinful (adultery).  Christ never said lust, "intense desire," is sinful in and of itself.

He did not deal with her as he dealt with the adulteress who he he told to "go and sin no more."  He had no such condemnation for St. Photina even though she was living with ("lusting for") an unmarried man and he for her.
reading a lot in there.  That's called eisogesis, btw.  Reading the Bible is suposed to go the other way: exogesis.
You get the name "St. Photina" from Tradition.  What does it say about her marital situation?

Like Christ, holy Tradition doesn't say much about St. Photina's specific choice of living situation.  If you think otherwise, why don't you tell me what Tradition says about her choice (cite your sources please).

Lust outside of the the context of adultery is not always sinful.
Inside marriage/outside marriage, lust is always sinful.

If you believe lust is always sinful then you believe Christ sinned.  For even Christ said, "With lust (epithymia) I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer.'"  (Luke 22:16)  Likewise, the Holy Apostle said, "But, brothers and sisters, when we were orphaned by being separated from you for a short time, out of our lust (epithymia) we made every effort to see you."  (1 Thessalonians 2:17)   See also 1 Timothy 6:9, "Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful lusts (epithymia) that plunge people into ruin and destruction."  There are harmful lusts on one hand while, on the other hand, there are holy and honorable lusts.  The good contexts or bad contexts are what make the intense desires good or bad.  "Lust" is simply one English word meaning "intense desire" or, in the Greek, "epithymia."  Christ did it.  It is not sinful in and of itself.

Lust is simply intense desire
you go with the Devil's Dictionary. I'll stick with Webster's.


Devil's Dictionary?  Is that what you're calling Holy Scripture nowadays?  If so, then I'll gladly go with what you call "the Devil's Dictionary."  I call it by a different name though.

To say "lust is sin" and leave it at that would be to call Christ himself a sinner since Scripture says He lusted for things.
Book?  Chapter? Verse?

Already provided above.  Lust is simply intense desire, and it is not evil.  Even sexually charged lusts are not evil in the right contexts.  For instance, see the Song of Solomon.
Logged

In Christ,
Jason
www.acts420.com
acts420
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: the Way
Jurisdiction: Jesus the Anointed One
Posts: 310



WWW
« Reply #120 on: May 02, 2012, 07:32:19 PM »

I do not know about the rest of you, but if I ever get married and have children one day, I really hope that I do not have a boy so that I do not have to ever walk in on him masturbating or anything, or have to lecture him about porn and stuff. I know that my mother once walked in on me masturbating and it was one of the most embarassing moments of my life.
Would you feel better walking in on your daughter?

If you have a daughter, you are still her father.  You had better talk to her about porn and stuff.  If you don't, she will find another man to teach her.

Amen.
Logged

In Christ,
Jason
www.acts420.com
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 12,939


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #121 on: May 02, 2012, 07:35:45 PM »

Everybody I've ever read for commentary on the Song of Solomon, says it is a metaphor for the love God has for His people. It is not a literal sex play between individuals.

If you want to see something else in it, you'll see something else.
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
acts420
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: the Way
Jurisdiction: Jesus the Anointed One
Posts: 310



WWW
« Reply #122 on: May 02, 2012, 10:15:37 PM »

Everybody I've ever read for commentary on the Song of Solomon, says it is a metaphor for the love God has for His people. It is not a literal sex play between individuals.

If you want to see something else in it, you'll see something else.

I believe it is metaphor, but it is not only metaphor.  It is an actual story with real implications for our marriages as well, not just for our ultimate marriage as the bride of Christ.  

Similarly, I believe that marriage itself and the couple's one flesh relationship are symbols of God's love for His people.  "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church."  But just because marriage and the union symbolizes God's love and our relationship to Him, that doesn't mean we should deny the reality of marriages and unions.

Song of Solomon is real too.  It is both a vivid tale of the formation of holy marriage, with implications for our own courtships and marriages, and it is a symbol of God's love for and relationship with the Church, with implications for how we should be relating to God.  
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 10:24:33 PM by acts420 » Logged

In Christ,
Jason
www.acts420.com
Agabus
The user formerly known as Agabus.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Pan-American Colloquial Convert Hybrid Orthodoxy.
Jurisdiction: We are all uncanonical now.
Posts: 2,190



« Reply #123 on: May 02, 2012, 10:22:31 PM »

I do not know about the rest of you, but if I ever get married and have children one day, I really hope that I do not have a boy so that I do not have to ever walk in on him masturbating or anything, or have to lecture him about porn and stuff.
Boys, girls, it doesn't matter. You have to start talking to them about playing with themselves by the time they're two if not earlier. Boys will fiddle with it for a while, but a little girl will really go at it right in the middle of the room if you don't say something.

From what some friends have told me, teenage girls do it plenty too, though they may not realize that what they're doing counts as masturbation. (I'll avoid discussing particulars for the sensitive among us).

In many ways, the teenage years are a regression to an earlier time.

Boys, for whatever reason, seem to feel more remorse about it.

Quote
I know that my mother once walked in on me masturbating and it was one of the most embarassing moments of my life.
I got nothing.
Logged

Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,322



« Reply #124 on: May 02, 2012, 10:37:24 PM »

Everybody I've ever read for commentary on the Song of Solomon, says it is a metaphor for the love God has for His people. It is not a literal sex play between individuals.

If you want to see something else in it, you'll see something else.

I believe it is metaphor, but it is not only metaphor.  It is an actual story with real implications for our marriages as well, not just for our ultimate marriage as the bride of Christ.  

Similarly, I believe that marriage itself and the couple's one flesh relationship are symbols of God's love for His people.  "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church."  But just because marriage and the union symbolizes God's love and our relationship to Him, that doesn't mean we should deny the reality of marriages and unions.
Yes "be united to his wife."  Not "the girl sitting on the other side of the bar."
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 4,153


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #125 on: May 02, 2012, 10:55:18 PM »

Everybody knows its wrong and a sin. 

To the OP,

I'm one with a controversial view on marriage, frankly one that I could care less what people think about it, but rather just strongly feel this way.

Not too long ago, people were married at 14 & 15 years old to others that were also near their ages.   In our society, we would think this is wrong, ugly, gross, too young, etc.   But they didn't have the mindset we had, but rather life was more simple, more about living and family.  They weren't pillaged with messages, propaganda ("I must get an education to succeed!!") and the likes.  Anyway, their maturity level and willingness to work as a family with their betrothed was far beyond what a typical youngster is today.  Understand these people were often raised in small towns and/or villages, where families knew each other etc.

Today perhaps,  youngsters are "intellectually smarter", but not "intellectually more mature".

As for the topic of discussion, these types of desires that God made us with, would be fulfilled in the beauty of matrimony. 
Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
acts420
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: the Way
Jurisdiction: Jesus the Anointed One
Posts: 310



WWW
« Reply #126 on: May 03, 2012, 12:01:44 AM »

Everybody I've ever read for commentary on the Song of Solomon, says it is a metaphor for the love God has for His people. It is not a literal sex play between individuals.

If you want to see something else in it, you'll see something else.

I believe it is metaphor, but it is not only metaphor.  It is an actual story with real implications for our marriages as well, not just for our ultimate marriage as the bride of Christ.  

Similarly, I believe that marriage itself and the couple's one flesh relationship are symbols of God's love for His people.  "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church."  But just because marriage and the union symbolizes God's love and our relationship to Him, that doesn't mean we should deny the reality of marriages and unions.
Yes "be united to his wife."  Not "the girl sitting on the other side of the bar."

Right.  The point is that in the word picture of courtship and marriage God has given us, the couple very obviously expresses intense desire (also known as "lust") for one another before their wedding.  That is fine and holy.  But then again, as you so aptly said, "If you want to see something else in it, you'll see something else."
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 12:04:56 AM by acts420 » Logged

In Christ,
Jason
www.acts420.com
acts420
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: the Way
Jurisdiction: Jesus the Anointed One
Posts: 310



WWW
« Reply #127 on: May 03, 2012, 12:13:06 AM »

Is masturbation allows for teenagers in the greek orthodox church. If not, why? Is it allowed when you are married.

The "greek orthodox church" has no formally declared teachings regarding masturbation as far as I know.  Grow close to God in your prayer life and in your obedience to Him in the matters that you do know the answer to..  And let Him guide your heart in this matter as you two grow closer.  That's my advice.

Children tend to masturbate even from an extremely young age.  It is a fact of life.  Despite that, Holy Scripture never calls it a sin, and there is not any sort of consensus in the Fathers that regards it as sinful.

There are Christians (and even pastors and priests) out there who try to tell everyone what exactly is a sin and what isn't.  They'll never admit when they don't know something, even though obviously there is an infinite amount of things we don't know.  Sometimes such people forbid masturbation all together, and other times they give specific rules as to when it is ethical and when it isn't.  These people sometimes don't have a clue.  That also is a fact of life.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 12:16:40 AM by acts420 » Logged

In Christ,
Jason
www.acts420.com
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,087


WWW
« Reply #128 on: May 03, 2012, 12:18:51 AM »

Is masturbation allows for teenagers in the greek orthodox church. If not, why? Is it allowed when you are married.

Many Greek orthodox Christians don't believe it is wrong or a sin.

How can you speak for Greek Orthodox Christians when you are not one?

There are Christians (and even pastors and priests) out there who try to tell everyone what exactly is a sin and what isn't.  Sometimes they forbid masturbation all together, and sometimes they give specific rules as to when it is ethical and when it isn't.  These people sometimes don't have a clue.  That also is a fact of life.

But you are the pre-eminent authority on what Greek Orthodox Christians believe.  Did you have a bad experience with a Greek Orthodox Priest? Church? woman?
Logged
acts420
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: the Way
Jurisdiction: Jesus the Anointed One
Posts: 310



WWW
« Reply #129 on: May 03, 2012, 01:17:47 AM »

Is masturbation allows for teenagers in the greek orthodox church. If not, why? Is it allowed when you are married.

Many Greek orthodox Christians don't believe it is wrong or a sin.

How can you speak for Greek Orthodox Christians when you are not one?

I know and have known many Greek orthodox Christians.

There are Christians (and even pastors and priests) out there who try to tell everyone what exactly is a sin and what isn't.  Sometimes they forbid masturbation all together, and sometimes they give specific rules as to when it is ethical and when it isn't.  These people sometimes don't have a clue.  That also is a fact of life.

But you are the pre-eminent authority on what Greek Orthodox Christians believe.  Did you have a bad experience with a Greek Orthodox Priest? Church? woman?

No, I'm not. And no, I did not.  It is just a fact of life that sometimes people don't have a clue about what they're talking about, even those with alleged "authority."  Masturbation is simple by definition, but the motivations and goals behind it can be complex.  People who try to paint the issue as black or white with broad strokes typically don't know what they're talking about, if you ask me.
Logged

In Christ,
Jason
www.acts420.com
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,087


WWW
« Reply #130 on: May 03, 2012, 01:47:01 AM »

Is masturbation allows for teenagers in the greek orthodox church. If not, why? Is it allowed when you are married.

Many Greek orthodox Christians don't believe it is wrong or a sin.

How can you speak for Greek Orthodox Christians when you are not one?

I know and have known many Greek orthodox Christians.

So you learn about Orthodox Christian Theology by watching My Big Fat Greek Wedding which is a satire on how Greek Orthodox Christians live and believe (e.g. Nia Vardalos makes fun of her ethnic heritage and faith)?

There are Christians (and even pastors and priests) out there who try to tell everyone what exactly is a sin and what isn't.  Sometimes they forbid masturbation all together, and sometimes they give specific rules as to when it is ethical and when it isn't.  These people sometimes don't have a clue.  That also is a fact of life.

But you are the pre-eminent authority on what Greek Orthodox Christians believe.  Did you have a bad experience with a Greek Orthodox Priest? Church? woman?

No, I'm not. And no, I did not.  It is just a fact of life that sometimes people don't have a clue about what they're talking about, even those with alleged "authority."  Masturbation is simple by definition, but the motivations and goals behind it can be complex.  People who try to paint the issue as black or white with broad strokes typically don't know what they're talking about, if you ask me.

I don't know everything.  You don't know everything.  Not even Isa knows everything.  You have seen that sexual lust is a sin and nearly every masturbation act includes sexual lust; otherwise you wouldn't be aroused and wouldn't complete the fantasy with the expected release - which makes masturbation a sin.  Sin is not allowed; however, we are fallen and sin except we are commanded to not judge because we will be judged with the same measure that was used to judge (Matthew 7:1,2 Orthodox Study Bible).

I think what Isa and I gave you are proper Orthodox answers.  You just don't want to see it the Orthodox way.  I used to work with someone like you - he is a big cannabis fan.  I acknowledged what he believed even though I didn't agree with him.  I don't agree with you and I will acknowledge your stubbornness towards what has been said to you.   Smiley
Logged
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: On-n-Off
Jurisdiction: OCA (the only truly Canonical American Orthodox Church)
Posts: 5,420


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #131 on: May 03, 2012, 01:54:03 AM »

I do not know about the rest of you, but if I ever get married and have children one day, I really hope that I do not have a boy so that I do not have to ever walk in on him masturbating or anything, or have to lecture him about porn and stuff. I know that my mother once walked in on me masturbating and it was one of the most embarassing moments of my life.
Would you feel better walking in on your daughter?

If you have a daughter, you are still her father.  You had better talk to her about porn and stuff.  If you don't, she will find another man to teach her.

Well wouldn't her mother do that if we had a daughter? I'm not a parent, but I had always assumed that usually the father handles the sons' sexual debauchery while the mother takes care of the daughter. Have you had to have these talks, lectures and lessons with your children yet?
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,322



« Reply #132 on: May 03, 2012, 02:08:54 AM »

I do not know about the rest of you, but if I ever get married and have children one day, I really hope that I do not have a boy so that I do not have to ever walk in on him masturbating or anything, or have to lecture him about porn and stuff. I know that my mother once walked in on me masturbating and it was one of the most embarassing moments of my life.
Would you feel better walking in on your daughter?

If you have a daughter, you are still her father.  You had better talk to her about porn and stuff.  If you don't, she will find another man to teach her.

Well wouldn't her mother do that if we had a daughter? I'm not a parent, but I had always assumed that usually the father handles the sons' sexual debauchery while the mother takes care of the daughter. Have you had to have these talks, lectures and lessons with your children yet?
We talked about contraception, due to a reference to a comment made in the homily about the response to Obamacare's mandate, a couple days ago.  Does that count?  It's not the first time we have talked about such things.  We have been talking about them I think since they were 4 or so. You can't wait: if you don't talk to them when the topic come up, they will talk to someone else, and you'll have no control over who that someone will be and what they will say. Can't recall what and if we have discussed about masturbation, though. Btw they are 14 and 13.

Her mother is not her father. They are not interchangeable (one of the problems with homosexuality).  Studies show the absence of the father is the single most determinate factor for a whole host of problems, oddly enough problems that are not effected by the mothers presence or absence.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
acts420
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: the Way
Jurisdiction: Jesus the Anointed One
Posts: 310



WWW
« Reply #133 on: May 03, 2012, 02:10:14 AM »

Is masturbation allows for teenagers in the greek orthodox church. If not, why? Is it allowed when you are married.

Many Greek orthodox Christians don't believe it is wrong or a sin.

How can you speak for Greek Orthodox Christians when you are not one?

I know and have known many Greek orthodox Christians.

So you learn about Orthodox Christian Theology by watching My Big Fat Greek Wedding which is a satire on how Greek Orthodox Christians live and believe (e.g. Nia Vardalos makes fun of her ethnic heritage and faith)?

No.  I know and have known many Greek orthodox Christians.

There are Christians (and even pastors and priests) out there who try to tell everyone what exactly is a sin and what isn't.  Sometimes they forbid masturbation all together, and sometimes they give specific rules as to when it is ethical and when it isn't.  These people sometimes don't have a clue.  That also is a fact of life.

But you are the pre-eminent authority on what Greek Orthodox Christians believe.  Did you have a bad experience with a Greek Orthodox Priest? Church? woman?

No, I'm not. And no, I did not.  It is just a fact of life that sometimes people don't have a clue about what they're talking about, even those with alleged "authority."  Masturbation is simple by definition, but the motivations and goals behind it can be complex.  People who try to paint the issue as black or white with broad strokes typically don't know what they're talking about, if you ask me.

I don't know everything.  You don't know everything.  Not even Isa knows everything.  You have seen that sexual lust is a sin and nearly every masturbation act includes sexual lust; otherwise you wouldn't be aroused and wouldn't complete the fantasy with the expected release - which makes masturbation a sin.  Sin is not allowed; however, we are fallen and sin except we are commanded to not judge because we will be judged with the same measure that was used to judge (Matthew 7:1,2 Orthodox Study Bible).

I think what Isa and I gave you are proper Orthodox answers.  You just don't want to see it the Orthodox way.  I used to work with someone like you - he is a big cannabis fan.  I acknowledged what he believed even though I didn't agree with him.  I don't agree with you and I will acknowledge your stubbornness towards what has been said to you.   Smiley

What a nice thing to say.  I'm glad we can acknowledge one another's stubbornness in peace.  I've known people like you also, people who add to the Scriptures.  Sexual lust is not a a sin per se.  All "sexual lust" means is "intense sexual desire."  There is is nothing wrong with our intense sexual desires when placed in the right context.  

For instance, married people intensely desire one another and it isn't sinful.  Those who are pursuing marriage intensely desire one another also (typically), and it also isn't typically sinful (it is celebrated in Song in Scripture).  Ultimately sin is revealed to each heart.   If you think masturbation is a sin, then it may indeed be a sin for you.  But you are not the judge of everyone else, and neither am I.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 02:12:35 AM by acts420 » Logged

In Christ,
Jason
www.acts420.com
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,087


WWW
« Reply #134 on: May 03, 2012, 01:56:31 PM »

What a nice thing to say.  I'm glad we can acknowledge one another's stubbornness in peace.  I've known people like you also, people who add to the Scriptures.

I'm not adding to the Scriptures.

Sexual lust is not a a sin per se.  All "sexual lust" means is "intense sexual desire."  There is is nothing wrong with our intense sexual desires when placed in the right context.

In a monogamous marriage, yes.  In marriage and hooking up with old flames on Facebook, no.
  
For instance, married people intensely desire one another and it isn't sinful.  Those who are pursuing marriage intensely desire one another also (typically), and it also isn't typically sinful (it is celebrated in Song in Scripture).  Ultimately sin is revealed to each heart.   If you think masturbation is a sin, then it may indeed be a sin for you.  But you are not the judge of everyone else, and neither am I.

Where is the bolded text quoted in your Scriptures?   Huh

Logged
Tags:
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.232 seconds with 72 queries.