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Author Topic: Is masturbation allowed?  (Read 11210 times) Average Rating: 0
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ironchapman
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« Reply #45 on: April 30, 2012, 03:27:06 PM »

...Masturbation is the one pleasure that makes everything to me feel better. And now I have to give it up? Sad

Well, they are called crosses (that you're suppose to be carrying)...

I'm not being flippant. I'm in the same position as you, really. I'm just saying, it's not easy, but what are you gonna do? Some things are harder to deal with, some easier.

I just tell myself to not excuse things, but also not to get down about them. "Be perfect" is a goal to shoot for, not an expectation that we will probably achieve at this very moment. (actually I would argue that we'll never achieve it, because we'll always be growing more perfect)

Don't treat it like a non-issue, but also don't let it destroy your progress you are making. Also, use it as a reminder when you want to judge someone else. Maybe someone else's problem is just as difficult to overcome for them as this is for us.

Wow thanks, that is some good advice.
Seconded.
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« Reply #46 on: April 30, 2012, 03:30:02 PM »

It's "allowed" when you're married because you can think about your spouse.
Are you Greek Orthodox?

Did you miss the words "Free For-All"?
No, I did not. Did you miss the phrase in the OP's question, "in the greek orthodox church"? Whereas no rule forbids you to comment on this thread while it's here on one of the Free-For-All boards, I just need to point out that unless you're Greek Orthodox you're probably not qualified to answer the OP's question as it's worded.
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« Reply #47 on: April 30, 2012, 03:33:27 PM »

...Masturbation is the one pleasure that makes everything to me feel better. And now I have to give it up? Sad

Well, they are called crosses (that you're suppose to be carrying)...

I'm not being flippant. I'm in the same position as you, really. I'm just saying, it's not easy, but what are you gonna do? Some things are harder to deal with, some easier.

I just tell myself to not excuse things, but also not to get down about them. "Be perfect" is a goal to shoot for, not an expectation that we will probably achieve at this very moment. (actually I would argue that we'll never achieve it, because we'll always be growing more perfect)

Don't treat it like a non-issue, but also don't let it destroy your progress you are making. Also, use it as a reminder when you want to judge someone else. Maybe someone else's problem is just as difficult to overcome for them as this is for us.

As of late, your posts have been very beneficial, deep and well thought out.  If I wanted to be cliche (God forbid) I might almost say "inspiring". 
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« Reply #48 on: April 30, 2012, 03:36:25 PM »

St. Clement allegedly said this:

Clement of Alexandria, while not making explicit reference to Onan, similarly reflects an early Christian view of the abhorrence of '"spilling seed'":
 "Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly ejaculated, nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted"[7] "To have coitus other than to procreate children is to do injury to nature"[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onan
Clement of Alexandria isn't the source you want to go to for seed-related questions.




can I get some syrup with those roffles?  Cheesy
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« Reply #49 on: April 30, 2012, 03:37:41 PM »

What about a person who is going through puberty? Although it may still be a sin, erasable by confession, it may be a little more understandable because everybody has that time in their lives.

At what age does puberty end, again?

Well, each person is different. It's usually 11-16 or so.

Each person is different.  Got it.  Then again, you didn't mess up your numbers, did you?  Could you possibly have meant 11-36??  Based on your initial statement, these ages seem a bit more realistic.  Just checking. 


 Wink
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« Reply #50 on: April 30, 2012, 03:39:43 PM »

Could you possibly have meant 11-36??  Based on your initial statement, these ages seem a bit more realistic.  Just checking Wink

Why do I find this strangely amusing? Smiley
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You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
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« Reply #51 on: April 30, 2012, 03:41:47 PM »

St. Clement allegedly said this:

Clement of Alexandria, while not making explicit reference to Onan, similarly reflects an early Christian view of the abhorrence of '"spilling seed'":
 "Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly ejaculated, nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted"[7] "To have coitus other than to procreate children is to do injury to nature"[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onan
Clement of Alexandria isn't the source you want to go to for seed-related questions.



Although it is odd, given his Stoic views, that he passes over Onan in silence.
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« Reply #52 on: April 30, 2012, 03:42:32 PM »

...Masturbation is the one pleasure that makes everything to me feel better. And now I have to give it up? Sad

Well, they are called crosses (that you're suppose to be carrying)...

I'm not being flippant. I'm in the same position as you, really. I'm just saying, it's not easy, but what are you gonna do? Some things are harder to deal with, some easier.

I just tell myself to not excuse things, but also not to get down about them. "Be perfect" is a goal to shoot for, not an expectation that we will probably achieve at this very moment. (actually I would argue that we'll never achieve it, because we'll always be growing more perfect)

Don't treat it like a non-issue, but also don't let it destroy your progress you are making. Also, use it as a reminder when you want to judge someone else. Maybe someone else's problem is just as difficult to overcome for them as this is for us.

Wow thanks, that is some good advice.
Seconded.
+3
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #53 on: April 30, 2012, 03:44:01 PM »

St. Clement allegedly said this:

Clement of Alexandria, while not making explicit reference to Onan, similarly reflects an early Christian view of the abhorrence of '"spilling seed'":
 "Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly ejaculated, nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted"[7] "To have coitus other than to procreate children is to do injury to nature"[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onan
Clement of Alexandria isn't the source you want to go to for seed-related questions.




can I get some syrup with those roffles?  Cheesy
got a thing for viscous fluids?
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #54 on: April 30, 2012, 04:09:42 PM »

St. Clement allegedly said this:

Clement of Alexandria, while not making explicit reference to Onan, similarly reflects an early Christian view of the abhorrence of '"spilling seed'":
 "Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly ejaculated, nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted"[7] "To have coitus other than to procreate children is to do injury to nature"[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onan
Clement of Alexandria isn't the source you want to go to for seed-related questions.




can I get some syrup with those roffles?  Cheesy
got a thing for viscous fluids?

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« Reply #55 on: April 30, 2012, 05:35:54 PM »

Could you possibly have meant 11-36??  Based on your initial statement, these ages seem a bit more realistic.  Just checking Wink

Why do I find this strangely amusing? Smiley

Because you are an intelligent young man that realizes the humor in truth!

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« Reply #56 on: April 30, 2012, 05:38:24 PM »

Could you possibly have meant 11-36??  Based on your initial statement, these ages seem a bit more realistic.  Just checking Wink

Why do I find this strangely amusing? Smiley

Because you are an intelligent young man that realizes the humor in truth!



 Grin
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« Reply #57 on: April 30, 2012, 05:39:33 PM »

I think that it is different for men and women.  For women, puberty lasts from about 11 - 16.  For men, it goes from around age 11 to 15 minutes after death.

What about a person who is going through puberty? Although it may still be a sin, erasable by confession, it may be a little more understandable because everybody has that time in their lives.

At what age does puberty end, again?

Well, each person is different. It's usually 11-16 or so.

Each person is different.  Got it.  Then again, you didn't mess up your numbers, did you?  Could you possibly have meant 11-36??  Based on your initial statement, these ages seem a bit more realistic.  Just checking. 


 Wink
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« Reply #58 on: April 30, 2012, 05:49:53 PM »

I think that it is different for men and women.  For women, puberty lasts from about 11 - 16.  For men, it goes from around age 11 to 15 minutes after death.

What about a person who is going through puberty? Although it may still be a sin, erasable by confession, it may be a little more understandable because everybody has that time in their lives.

At what age does puberty end, again?

Well, each person is different. It's usually 11-16 or so.

Each person is different.  Got it.  Then again, you didn't mess up your numbers, did you?  Could you possibly have meant 11-36??  Based on your initial statement, these ages seem a bit more realistic.  Just checking. 


 Wink
Actually, longer than 15 minutes.  Rigor mortis.  That has become an issue now that the Muslim Brotherhood has, on the basis of some Moroccan fatwa, declared that necrophelia is lawful (but destertable) between a married couple for six hours post mortem (no, I don't know how they arrived at six hours and no more, and no, I don't want to know).
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« Reply #59 on: April 30, 2012, 05:52:42 PM »

I wonder if these guys make their wives take cold showers before sex.

I think that it is different for men and women.  For women, puberty lasts from about 11 - 16.  For men, it goes from around age 11 to 15 minutes after death.

What about a person who is going through puberty? Although it may still be a sin, erasable by confession, it may be a little more understandable because everybody has that time in their lives.

At what age does puberty end, again?

Well, each person is different. It's usually 11-16 or so.

Each person is different.  Got it.  Then again, you didn't mess up your numbers, did you?  Could you possibly have meant 11-36??  Based on your initial statement, these ages seem a bit more realistic.  Just checking. 


 Wink
Actually, longer than 15 minutes.  Rigor mortis.  That has become an issue now that the Muslim Brotherhood has, on the basis of some Moroccan fatwa, declared that necrophelia is lawful (but destertable) between a married couple for six hours post mortem (no, I don't know how they arrived at six hours and no more, and no, I don't want to know).
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« Reply #60 on: April 30, 2012, 06:01:43 PM »

Could you possibly have meant 11-36??  Based on your initial statement, these ages seem a bit more realistic.  Just checking Wink

Why do I find this strangely amusing? Smiley

Because you are an intelligent young man that realizes the humor in truth!



Or more like a lascivious young boy semi-aroused by the mention of a woman masturbating?

Just kidding Cheesy
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You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
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« Reply #61 on: May 01, 2012, 10:35:34 AM »

It's "allowed" when you're married because you can think about your spouse.
Are you Greek Orthodox?

Did you miss the words "Free For-All"?
No, I did not. Did you miss the phrase in the OP's question, "in the greek orthodox church"? Whereas no rule forbids you to comment on this thread while it's here on one of the Free-For-All boards, I just need to point out that unless you're Greek Orthodox you're probably not qualified to answer the OP's question as it's worded.

Oddly enough, others responding to the op are also not Greek Orthodox and yet you have once again chosen to target me specifically.

If you want to get my attention, there are easier ways Peter  Wink
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« Reply #62 on: May 01, 2012, 10:37:43 AM »

I was thinking a little on this post last night. It had nothing to do with the fact my wife is out of town. That’s my story I’m sticking to it! Roll Eyes  As a non Orthodox I obviously cannot answer the direct question asked. The subject of masturbation in marriage came up though, and as a married man please allow me to ask a couple of questions…

I read once that the term ‘one flesh’ in modern English would be interpreted as ‘one being’ or ‘one organism’. Would this not be the basis of why masturbation is forbidden even in a marriage? If a single being separates itself for the purpose of self gratification then how (in that moment at least) can it be considered a single organism? Figuratively speaking would that not be the equivalent of chopping off an appendage? I think C.S. Lewis made the comparison to a latch and key or something like that. It is two parts of the same mechanism, each part being made to work in conjunction with the other. I suppose, of course, we could use the key without the latch, say, to open a can of paint or something. It would work though that it not its True purpose, and we do stand the chance of breaking the key when using it improperly, and by doing so destroy the entire mechanism latch and key.  

Then I considered what I think we all agree on that Marriage is a sacrament. It is also a contract between not just two but three; husband, wife, and God. If we go outside of the purpose, and contract, (will of God) is it still a sacrament?

Then of course there are the thoughts that often go along with self gratification. If a spouse is doing so fantasizing of someone other than their own spouse would we consider that lust in the mind that we are taught is adultery in our heart?

That brought me to the subject of mutual self gratification that was brought up. Important to note this is just my thought and opinion here. If a husband and wife ‘one flesh’ do something mutually together for  gratification of either or both, especially considering the husbands body belongs to the wife and vise versa, would that not be remaining within the confines of matrimony? Would that not be remaining as   one flesh (two parts of one mechanism operating together) and something to remain personal between husband, wife, and God?
 
Just my two cents if worth even that.
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« Reply #63 on: May 01, 2012, 10:38:20 AM »

I think that it is different for men and women.  For women, puberty lasts from about 11 - 16.  For men, it goes from around age 11 to 15 minutes after death.

What about a person who is going through puberty? Although it may still be a sin, erasable by confession, it may be a little more understandable because everybody has that time in their lives.

At what age does puberty end, again?

Well, each person is different. It's usually 11-16 or so.

Each person is different.  Got it.  Then again, you didn't mess up your numbers, did you?  Could you possibly have meant 11-36??  Based on your initial statement, these ages seem a bit more realistic.  Just checking. 


 Wink
Actually, longer than 15 minutes.  Rigor mortis.  That has become an issue now that the Muslim Brotherhood has, on the basis of some Moroccan fatwa, declared that necrophelia is lawful (but destertable) between a married couple for six hours post mortem (no, I don't know how they arrived at six hours and no more, and no, I don't want to know).

/shudders

 Grin
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« Reply #64 on: May 01, 2012, 11:00:04 AM »

An interesting post, alanscott Smiley Fwiw, I wonder if each of us don't have a different idea of what makes "one flesh". Is orgasm necessary? I would think not on that one. Just sexual intimacy, even before anything happens? I don't know. Is penetration necessary? What then of men who cannot get an erection (though I guess this is less an issue these days), are they thereby denied the ability to be of one flesh with their spouse? One could also argue that maturbation is not always self-gratifying, at least not any more than regular sex is sometimes. If variety is the spice of (sex) life, and a couple finds it beneficial to do such a thing in each other's company (even if each person takes care of themselves), then why not? Is being of one flesh about a physical act, or is it a deeper thing? Maybe my bias is showing here, but when I think about what is good about sex, I always found sex to be much more psychologically enjoyable than physiologically enjoyable... it's not about a specific action (e.g., penis enters...) or physical sensation, but rather exploring someone in intimate, vulnerable, and enjoyable ways, which result in a closer bond. In that sense either maturbating while in the presence of the spouse, or mutually doing so, isn't necessarily a problem. It's only a potential problem when it becomes a distorted act by the introduction of foreign elements, such as thinking about your neighbor while you do it. Though regarding someone not married, things are a bit different...
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« Reply #65 on: May 01, 2012, 11:08:13 AM »

It's "allowed" when you're married because you can think about your spouse.
Are you Greek Orthodox?

Did you miss the words "Free For-All"?
No, I did not. Did you miss the phrase in the OP's question, "in the greek orthodox church"? Whereas no rule forbids you to comment on this thread while it's here on one of the Free-For-All boards, I just need to point out that unless you're Greek Orthodox you're probably not qualified to answer the OP's question as it's worded.

Oddly enough, others responding to the op are also not Greek Orthodox and yet you have once again chosen to target me specifically.

If you want to get my attention, there are easier ways Peter  Wink
everyone who posted (except Alanscott, who just posted) was Orthodox or Orthodox background.
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #66 on: May 01, 2012, 11:16:57 AM »

I was thinking a little on this post last night. It had nothing to do with the fact my wife is out of town. That’s my story I’m sticking to it! Roll Eyes
 
and what are you sticking to it with? Roll Eyes

That brought me to the subject of mutual self gratification that was brought up. Important to note this is just my thought and opinion here. If a husband and wife ‘one flesh’ do something mutually together for  gratification of either or both, especially considering the husbands body belongs to the wife and vise versa, would that not be remaining within the confines of matrimony? Would that not be remaining as   one flesh (two parts of one mechanism operating together) and something to remain personal between husband, wife, and God?
This is sort of a litmus test issue: how one answers it pretty much divide you up into schools that determine your answer to the OP.

Some would say that it is definitely not "one flesh."  Most the patristics that Humanae Vitae apologists depend on, and Orthodox who abhor contraception, fall here.

Others would OK it, as long as it ended up in ejaculation in vaginal intercourse.  Most Humanae Vitae apologists fall here.

Others, like me, would say it is "one flesh."

The first two groups would condemn (self)masturbation as "mortal sin" or some such thing. The last would more or less focus on what part lust is involved.
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« Reply #67 on: May 01, 2012, 12:18:02 PM »

I was thinking a little on this post last night. It had nothing to do with the fact my wife is out of town. That’s my story I’m sticking to it! Roll Eyes
 
and what are you sticking to it with? Roll Eyes


Dude!!!  police   Grin

You bring up an aspect of theology I have yet to delve into at any real depth. Pun Not intended, behave yourself ialmisry!  Wink

All kidding aside is Humanae Vitae not based on intimacy between husband and wife being for procreation only?  The question I have is how does that hold up when by most all accounts even after a woman reaches menopause, and can no longer conceive a child, both her and her husband (one flesh) still have sexual desires for each other and fulfillment from intimacy both spiritually and physical? Obviously, in my mind, it is no longer for procreation thus Humanae Vitae becomes in question, or a husband and wife should no longer have intimate relations at all. Thoughts?
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« Reply #68 on: May 01, 2012, 12:42:23 PM »

It's "allowed" when you're married because you can think about your spouse.
Are you Greek Orthodox?

Did you miss the words "Free For-All"?
No, I did not. Did you miss the phrase in the OP's question, "in the greek orthodox church"? Whereas no rule forbids you to comment on this thread while it's here on one of the Free-For-All boards, I just need to point out that unless you're Greek Orthodox you're probably not qualified to answer the OP's question as it's worded.

Oddly enough, others responding to the op are also not Greek Orthodox and yet you have once again chosen to target me specifically.
Have you happened to notice that I addressed you very early in this thread, long before others drove this thread completely off the rails? Your post, which I confronted, was the first reply on this thread.
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« Reply #69 on: May 01, 2012, 12:54:37 PM »

I was thinking a little on this post last night. It had nothing to do with the fact my wife is out of town. That’s my story I’m sticking to it! Roll Eyes
 
and what are you sticking to it with? Roll Eyes


Dude!!!  police   Grin

You bring up an aspect of theology I have yet to delve into at any real depth. Pun Not intended, behave yourself ialmisry!  Wink

All kidding aside is Humanae Vitae not based on intimacy between husband and wife being for procreation only?  The question I have is how does that hold up when by most all accounts even after a woman reaches menopause, and can no longer conceive a child, both her and her husband (one flesh) still have sexual desires for each other and fulfillment from intimacy both spiritually and physical? Obviously, in my mind, it is no longer for procreation thus Humanae Vitae becomes in question, or a husband and wife should no longer have intimate relations at all. Thoughts?

LOL. Plenty. For example
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,21230.0.html
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,29748.0.html
and not for the faint hearted (nor anally shocked Shocked):
Definitions of Masturbation and Other Relating Matters
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,38152.msg639898.html#msg639898

But to your suspecific question, HV was drawn by those who had no knowledge of what you speak (and in opposition to the majority report of its appointed committee who evidently did), living in a universe of mandated celibacy which created a society in which mysogeny and virginal arrogance and pride feeds perpetually on itself, and spews such things out.  The very idea of those advanced beyond reproductive years thinking of marital intimacy-they would be shocked, as they could see no other purpose but "begetting virgins" (to cite one of their favorite phrases from St. Jerome) for one to engage in the distasteful task of the dirty deed.

We have our share of the why-defile-yourself-with-a-daughter-of-Eve-when-you-can-live-the-life-of-angels ilk, but quite a number of widowed bishops (St. Innocent, the Great Apostle and Enlightener of Alaska being a fine example), and the context of their married clergy, the majority of priests, and also our strong tradition of lay theologians, mostly in the past monastics, it's true, but also married Faithful (Paul Evdokim comes to mind, and in this context), keep them at bay.

Many apologists for HV will evade saying that past child bearing a couple should live "like brother and sister," but the patristics they cite for HV and the sources HV itself cites leads to that conclusion.
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« Reply #70 on: May 01, 2012, 01:43:55 PM »

It's "allowed" when you're married because you can think about your spouse.
Are you Greek Orthodox?

Did you miss the words "Free For-All"?
No, I did not. Did you miss the phrase in the OP's question, "in the greek orthodox church"? Whereas no rule forbids you to comment on this thread while it's here on one of the Free-For-All boards, I just need to point out that unless you're Greek Orthodox you're probably not qualified to answer the OP's question as it's worded.

Oddly enough, others responding to the op are also not Greek Orthodox and yet you have once again chosen to target me specifically.
Have you happened to notice that I addressed you very early in this thread, long before others drove this thread completely off the rails? Your post, which I confronted, was the first reply on this thread.

[Beavis and Butthead laughter] He said, "rails".  [/Beavis and Butthead laughter]
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« Reply #71 on: May 01, 2012, 02:16:19 PM »

If I scratch my back because it feels good, that is OK.  If I rub my foot because it is tired and it feels good, that is OK.  But if I rub Mr. Happy and make him feel good, then it is a sin?  I really do not think so.  Also, why all the fuss about what the wife thinks?  How long has some of you been married?  When you get to a certain age, many wives appreciate your ability to take care of your own problems occasionally.  That is why you have two hands with opposing thumbs.  If masturbation was all that bad, John Thomas would be on your back where you couldn't reach him.
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« Reply #72 on: May 01, 2012, 02:24:24 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Wow the decision is Ecumenical, "Go ask your priest."

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #73 on: May 01, 2012, 02:34:22 PM »

If I scratch my back because it feels good, that is OK.  If I rub my foot because it is tired and it feels good, that is OK.  But if I rub Mr. Happy and make him feel good, then it is a sin?  I really do not think so.  Also, why all the fuss about what the wife thinks?  How long has some of you been married?  When you get to a certain age, many wives appreciate your ability to take care of your own problems occasionally.  That is why you have two hands with opposing thumbs.  If masturbation was all that bad, John Thomas would be on your back where you couldn't reach him.

do you lust or fantasize when you scratch your back though? it's pretty much part and parcel of masturbation to do the former 2 things.
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« Reply #74 on: May 01, 2012, 02:51:58 PM »

Referring back to the OP, I think this post from a Greek Orthodox priest (who also happens to be our forum admin) offers a lot of insight into what the Greek Orthodox Church says about masturbation:

I have heard that, among RC and EO confessors, a penitent who struggles with frequent Masturbation is not always required to abstain from Communion.  I was told by my confessor that this issue which I struggle with should not deny me the chance to partake of the sacrament every sunday.  In fact, while he admitted that the Church holds it as a "gravely disordered act" my case it would not be considered a mortal sin due to his judgment on the state of my personality and factors which mitigated its seriousness. 

I was at first puzzled by this, but I have heard that there are factors which mitigate the seriousness of this sin and that many confessors advice their penitents to receive Communion frequently as a way to combat this disordered act.  I trust in the judgment of my confessor in this matter, yet my mind is still sometimes plagued with doubts. 
Is this the usual practice of EO confessors, as well as RC ones?

I suppose it depends on the person's individual struggle with the issue, and how often they've come for correction.  I find a 3-step response appropriate:

1. Why is it (action, not person) bad?  With masturbation, this answer must be comprehensive, covering the various physical (addiction), social (withdrawl, disordered view of relationships, etc.), and spiritual ailments it (and its usual compatriot, pornography) can lead to.  I do not think that folks fully grasp how serious the entire experience is; when they hear about how long it takes to flush an image from our memory/consciousness*, how addictive sexual stimulation actually is (i.e. the rat study with 1 heroin group and 1 sexually stimulated group), etc., they fully understand the Church's wisdom in discouraging the practice.

2. How available forgiveness is.  You know, speaking about St. Mary of Egypt, the Thief on the Cross, etc.

3. How to combat it.  Full-scale spiritual assault on the passion.

Of course, this methodology is usually fairly effective with speaking with someone who is confronting a passion for the first time.

* Father Nathaniel (of blessed memory) of St. Theodore the Studite Monastery in Galion, OH (formerly of St. Gregory Palamas in Hayesville, OH) once went to our Summer Camp to give a presentation about contemporary TV.  This was about 20 years ago.  Before going to camp, he had a friend record about 20 minutes of MTV (at a random point in the day - nothing specific).  He took the recording to camp, and played about 15-16 minutes of it, describing the various occult, sexual, and satanic images that would pop up in the videos.  He did not prepare in advance for the presentation (i.e. when he saw the video with the kids, it was his first time seeing it).  The presentation shocked the kids; but more so his final reflection (my paraphrase): "It will take me 4 1/2 months of intense praying and fasting to rid my mind of these images."  As my koumbaro pointed out to others that day, that's assuming a monastic definition of intense prayer and fasting.
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« Reply #75 on: May 01, 2012, 02:52:48 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Wow the decision is Ecumenical, "Go ask your priest."

stay blessed,
habte selassie
I can't make out what the pictures in the book are of.
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« Reply #76 on: May 01, 2012, 02:55:22 PM »

If I scratch my back because it feels good, that is OK.  If I rub my foot because it is tired and it feels good, that is OK.  But if I rub Mr. Happy and make him feel good, then it is a sin?  I really do not think so.  Also, why all the fuss about what the wife thinks?  How long has some of you been married?  When you get to a certain age, many wives appreciate your ability to take care of your own problems occasionally.  That is why you have two hands with opposing thumbs.  If masturbation was all that bad, John Thomas would be on your back where you couldn't reach him.

"If only it were so easy to dispel hunger, by rubbing the belly."

-Diogenes of Sinope

Edit: While he wasn't Greek Orthodox, he was Greek, so his opinion should carry 50% weight in this debate.
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« Reply #77 on: May 01, 2012, 03:00:34 PM »

Is masturbation allows for teenagers in the greek orthodox church. If not, why? Is it allowed when you are married.

God purifies, Satan pollutes, and man must choose which he will do. Masturbation is not an act leading to purification, but to pollution. It is not the will of God that man pollute himself, for God made him pure like the angels. Nonetheless, God shows great mercy to sinners and restores purity to those who repent of their sins. But how are we to receive God's grace through repentance if we refuse to call our impure actions sins, as they are? We need to be honest, both about sin and how we swim in it, about ourselves and our weakness, but most importantly about God's love and care for us and how the angels rejoice more over one who repents than over 99 righteous persons.
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« Reply #78 on: May 01, 2012, 03:03:02 PM »

[This Post, A Mistake]
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« Reply #79 on: May 01, 2012, 03:12:53 PM »

Is masturbation allows for teenagers in the greek orthodox church. If not, why? Is it allowed when you are married.

God purifies, Satan pollutes, and man must choose which he will do. Masturbation is not an act leading to purification, but to pollution. It is not the will of God that man pollute himself, for God made him pure like the angels. Nonetheless, God shows great mercy to sinners and restores purity to those who repent of their sins. But how are we to receive God's grace through repentance if we refuse to call our impure actions sins, as they are? We need to be honest, both about sin and how we swim in it, about ourselves and our weakness, but most importantly about God's love and care for us and how the angels rejoice more over one who repents than over 99 righteous persons.
I think of it like smoking and drinking.  Is that the type of pollution you are speaking of?

Angels do not marry, but they can fall.  I'm not sure of their relevance, given that they are not made in the image and likeness of God, and so man was not made like them.
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« Reply #80 on: May 01, 2012, 03:13:53 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Wow the decision is Ecumenical, "Go ask your priest."

stay blessed,
habte selassie
I can't make out what the pictures in the book are of.

It's the Koran.  Pope Benedict is about to make the others kiss it.
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« Reply #81 on: May 01, 2012, 03:16:22 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Wow the decision is Ecumenical, "Go ask your priest."

stay blessed,
habte selassie
I can't make out what the pictures in the book are of.

It's the Koran.
LOL.  Not if it has pictures.

Pope Benedict is about to make the others kiss it.
not after the bru-ha-ha over his acomments, I don't think so.
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« Reply #82 on: May 01, 2012, 03:47:00 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Wow the decision is Ecumenical, "Go ask your priest."

stay blessed,
habte selassie
I can't make out what the pictures in the book are of.

It's the Koran.
LOL.  Not if it has pictures.

It's the unauthorized illustrated version published in Denmark.

Quote
Pope Benedict is about to make the others kiss it.
not after the bru-ha-ha over his acomments, I don't think so.

That's just what he WANTS you to think.
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« Reply #83 on: May 01, 2012, 03:49:47 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Wow the decision is Ecumenical, "Go ask your priest."

stay blessed,
habte selassie
I can't make out what the pictures in the book are of.

It's the Koran.  Pope Benedict is about to make the others kiss it.

"just give it a little kiss there...it won't hurt anything. You might like it!"
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« Reply #84 on: May 01, 2012, 04:01:31 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Wow the decision is Ecumenical, "Go ask your priest."

stay blessed,
habte selassie
I can't make out what the pictures in the book are of.

It's the Koran.  Pope Benedict is about to make the others kiss it.

"just give it a little kiss there...it won't hurt anything. You might like it!"

I feel kinda dirty having read that.  It's not easy to make me feel dirty.   Wink
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« Reply #85 on: May 01, 2012, 04:02:34 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Wow the decision is Ecumenical, "Go ask your priest."

stay blessed,
habte selassie
I can't make out what the pictures in the book are of.

It's the Koran.
LOL.  Not if it has pictures.

It's the unauthorized illustrated version published in Denmark.

LOL.  Cheesy
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« Reply #86 on: May 01, 2012, 04:14:10 PM »

Referring back to the OP, I think this post from a Greek Orthodox priest (who also happens to be our forum admin) offers a lot of insight into what the Greek Orthodox Church says about masturbation:

I have heard that, among RC and EO confessors, a penitent who struggles with frequent Masturbation is not always required to abstain from Communion.  I was told by my confessor that this issue which I struggle with should not deny me the chance to partake of the sacrament every sunday.  In fact, while he admitted that the Church holds it as a "gravely disordered act" my case it would not be considered a mortal sin due to his judgment on the state of my personality and factors which mitigated its seriousness. 

I was at first puzzled by this, but I have heard that there are factors which mitigate the seriousness of this sin and that many confessors advice their penitents to receive Communion frequently as a way to combat this disordered act.  I trust in the judgment of my confessor in this matter, yet my mind is still sometimes plagued with doubts. 
Is this the usual practice of EO confessors, as well as RC ones?

I suppose it depends on the person's individual struggle with the issue, and how often they've come for correction.  I find a 3-step response appropriate:

1. Why is it (action, not person) bad?  With masturbation, this answer must be comprehensive, covering the various physical (addiction), social (withdrawl, disordered view of relationships, etc.), and spiritual ailments it (and its usual compatriot, pornography) can lead to.  I do not think that folks fully grasp how serious the entire experience is; when they hear about how long it takes to flush an image from our memory/consciousness*, how addictive sexual stimulation actually is (i.e. the rat study with 1 heroin group and 1 sexually stimulated group), etc., they fully understand the Church's wisdom in discouraging the practice.

2. How available forgiveness is.  You know, speaking about St. Mary of Egypt, the Thief on the Cross, etc.

3. How to combat it.  Full-scale spiritual assault on the passion.

Of course, this methodology is usually fairly effective with speaking with someone who is confronting a passion for the first time.

* Father Nathaniel (of blessed memory) of St. Theodore the Studite Monastery in Galion, OH (formerly of St. Gregory Palamas in Hayesville, OH) once went to our Summer Camp to give a presentation about contemporary TV.  This was about 20 years ago.  Before going to camp, he had a friend record about 20 minutes of MTV (at a random point in the day - nothing specific).  He took the recording to camp, and played about 15-16 minutes of it, describing the various occult, sexual, and satanic images that would pop up in the videos.  He did not prepare in advance for the presentation (i.e. when he saw the video with the kids, it was his first time seeing it).  The presentation shocked the kids; but more so his final reflection (my paraphrase): "It will take me 4 1/2 months of intense praying and fasting to rid my mind of these images."  As my koumbaro pointed out to others that day, that's assuming a monastic definition of intense prayer and fasting.

I think Fr. George had a good take on the issue.  As funny as I think this subject is (because I am immature) it is probably one of the harder sins to combat.  I have found that the best way to fight sin is to replace it with something good.  If you hate then you should focus on love.  If you are lazy you should remain active.  If you have greed you should try giving.  (There are plenty more, but you get the picture and those are ones I have dealt with so I will stick with what I know.)  The problem with pleasures of the fleshy bit, are that it seems that the only way to deal with them are by deprivation.  I find the necessary deprivation to be something that is very hard to put myself through.  If I fast and pray a lot I can combat it more often than not.  But, I know I struggle more than I succeed.  God usually won't send us a temptation without a means of escape (so saith St. Paul).  St. Paul gives us marriage as a second means of combating this temptation, but there are lots of variables to this method and if one party doesn't want to, then it's back to deprivation or sin for the other.

Oh well, not trying to find excuses for it, but I guess I'm just saying that anyone who fights against this sin is up against one hell of a battle.
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« Reply #87 on: May 01, 2012, 10:55:55 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Wow the decision is Ecumenical, "Go ask your priest."

stay blessed,
habte selassie
I can't make out what the pictures in the book are of.
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« Reply #88 on: May 02, 2012, 08:52:54 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Wow the decision is Ecumenical, "Go ask your priest."

stay blessed,
habte selassie
I can't make out what the pictures in the book are of.

dare ya to change the wiki pic to that and take a screenie... Wink

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad

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« Reply #89 on: May 02, 2012, 09:57:29 AM »

It's "allowed" when you're married because you can think about your spouse.
Are you Greek Orthodox?

Did you miss the words "Free For-All"?
No, I did not. Did you miss the phrase in the OP's question, "in the greek orthodox church"? Whereas no rule forbids you to comment on this thread while it's here on one of the Free-For-All boards, I just need to point out that unless you're Greek Orthodox you're probably not qualified to answer the OP's question as it's worded.

Oddly enough, others responding to the op are also not Greek Orthodox and yet you have once again chosen to target me specifically.
Have you happened to notice that I addressed you very early in this thread, long before others drove this thread completely off the rails? Your post, which I confronted, was the first reply on this thread.

Seems that your time would have been better spent keeping the thread on track then.
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