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Author Topic: Is masturbation allowed?  (Read 11686 times) Average Rating: 0
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God Bless3232
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« on: April 30, 2012, 11:14:53 AM »

Is masturbation allows for teenagers in the greek orthodox church. If not, why? Is it allowed when you are married.
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« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2012, 11:27:58 AM »

It's "allowed" when you're married because you can think about your spouse.
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« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2012, 11:29:33 AM »

No more allowed than lying to one's parents or wife.

It's "allowed" when you're married because you can think about your spouse.
No, not even then.
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« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2012, 11:32:38 AM »

You are supposed to avoid lust if you can (see, for example, Matt. 5:27-28). There are other ideas for why people say you shouldn't masturbate, but the lust reason usually covers most people.
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« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2012, 11:39:47 AM »

No more allowed than lying to one's parents or wife.

It's "allowed" when you're married because you can think about your spouse.
No, not even then.

Without wishing to elicit too much information - why ever not?
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« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2012, 11:50:29 AM »

only with a blessing but, u know, when in doubt AYSF
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« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2012, 11:55:59 AM »

No more allowed than lying to one's parents or wife.

It's "allowed" when you're married because you can think about your spouse.
No, not even then.

Without wishing to elicit too much information - why ever not?

If I had to take a crack at it, I'd say that with the admonition than husbands submit to their wives and wives submit to their husbands, if one party is ever reduced to dolphin flogging then there is a problem.

IDK.  Seems logical, seeing as that marriage is how St. Paul recommends we deal with "burning with desire".

DIY'ing it would be the most efficient method, but going without and burning with desire are much more of a struggle.  Mortify the flesh, and all that, yo.
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« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2012, 12:01:48 PM »

No more allowed than lying to one's parents or wife.

It's "allowed" when you're married because you can think about your spouse.
No, not even then.

Without wishing to elicit too much information - why ever not?

Partially vamrat's response, partially the fact that masturbation is almost a more literal form of "homosexuality" than the common use.
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« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2012, 12:31:26 PM »

only with a blessing but, u know, when in doubt AYSF

I fall more in love with you every day.
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« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2012, 12:32:07 PM »

It's "allowed" when you're married because you can think about your spouse.
Are you Greek Orthodox?
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« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2012, 12:33:06 PM »

On the basis that i don't want to hijack God Bless3232's thread i'll leave it there but even after taking your answers into consideration, i still disagree.
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« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2012, 12:34:05 PM »

It's "allowed" when you're married because you can think about your spouse.
Are you Greek Orthodox?

Did you miss the words "Free For-All"?
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« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2012, 12:44:48 PM »

Sexual union between married couples is an act of giving themselves to each other. It's a sacrifice of sharing each other in one flesh. With masturbation the only person you are "pleasuring" is yourself.
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« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2012, 12:46:26 PM »

You are supposed to avoid lust if you can (see, for example, Matt. 5:27-28). There are other ideas for why people say you shouldn't masturbate, but the lust reason usually covers most people.
Lust would basically be the only problem.  "Wasting seed" is not.
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« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2012, 12:49:27 PM »

You are supposed to avoid lust if you can (see, for example, Matt. 5:27-28). There are other ideas for why people say you shouldn't masturbate, but the lust reason usually covers most people.
Lust would basically be the only problem.  "Wasting seed" is not.

why not?
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« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2012, 12:50:32 PM »

Sexual union between married couples is an act of giving themselves to each other. It's a sacrifice of sharing each other in one flesh. With masturbation the only person you are "pleasuring" is yourself.

One problem I have with this part of the argument against it is that masturbation can be done together with a spouse, either each taking care of themselves but still enjoying one another's company, or taking care of each other.
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« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2012, 01:43:14 PM »

What if it occurs during the act of marital intercourse/foreplay, etc.? Surely that's not a problem.
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« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2012, 02:14:48 PM »

I think it is important to make a distinction between auto-eroticism and marital foreplay in this discussion, though this might be a departure from Tradition, at least as far as the celibate Fathers are concerned- the married Fathers apparently not having too much time for book and letter writing, for some strange reason....

What goes on in the marriage bed should stay in the marriage bed, though if one or both spouses feel guilty about something or are unsure about the morality of certain acts it is certainly appropriate to get advice from a married parish priest.

Still, the Church definitely forbids taking matters into one's own hands.
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« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2012, 02:28:14 PM »

What about a person who is going through puberty? Although it may still be a sin, erasable by confession, it may be a little more understandable because everybody has that time in their lives.
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« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2012, 02:31:56 PM »

You are supposed to avoid lust if you can (see, for example, Matt. 5:27-28). There are other ideas for why people say you shouldn't masturbate, but the lust reason usually covers most people.
Lust would basically be the only problem.  "Wasting seed" is not.

why not?
Because it is not, Father.

To follow up on an aspect that FR brings up, it is not a sin, for instance, for a wife to take her husband's matters into her own hands.

We can go from there.
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« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2012, 02:33:14 PM »

Sexual union between married couples is an act of giving themselves to each other. It's a sacrifice of sharing each other in one flesh. With masturbation the only person you are "pleasuring" is yourself.
Same with a gourmet meal.
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« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2012, 02:34:31 PM »

ya the act of spilling seed was a punishable offense in the OT
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« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2012, 02:35:24 PM »

Sexual union between married couples is an act of giving themselves to each other. It's a sacrifice of sharing each other in one flesh. With masturbation the only person you are "pleasuring" is yourself.

i don't think that's necessarily true..
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« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2012, 02:38:38 PM »

ya the act of spilling seed was a punishable offense in the OT
depends if you were spilling it in your neighbor's wife.  Or a goat.
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« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2012, 02:40:21 PM »

No more allowed than lying to one's parents or wife.

It's "allowed" when you're married because you can think about your spouse.
No, not even then.

Without wishing to elicit too much information - why ever not?

Well................................what would be the point?
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« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2012, 02:40:29 PM »

ya the act of spilling seed was a punishable offense in the OT
depends if you were spilling it in your neighbor's wife.  Or a goat.

rofl. i was talking about spilling it carelessly, i.e. on the ground.
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« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2012, 02:41:12 PM »

ya the act of spilling seed was a punishable offense in the OT

oh crap
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« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2012, 02:42:49 PM »

No more allowed than lying to one's parents or wife.

It's "allowed" when you're married because you can think about your spouse.
No, not even then.

Without wishing to elicit too much information - why ever not?

Well................................what would be the point?

more pleasure during sex, for one (referring to women primarily)? I think that doing it by yourself outside of the act of marriage leads to trouble though, i think that stands to reason. Some have mentioned the concept of webcam's before...kind of murky area but to me that seems like a mutual thing between two married persons.
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« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2012, 02:43:21 PM »

ya the act of spilling seed was a punishable offense in the OT

oh crap

again, rofl.
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« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2012, 02:47:29 PM »

ya the act of spilling seed was a punishable offense in the OT

oh crap

again, rofl.

Poor Onan, he didn't even have a goat, and look what happened to him.  Huh
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« Reply #30 on: April 30, 2012, 02:47:47 PM »

ya the act of spilling seed was a punishable offense in the OT
depends if you were spilling it in your neighbor's wife.  Or a goat.

rofl. i was talking about spilling it carelessly, i.e. on the ground.
Onan?  It never ceases to amuse me how those who are so incensed about every last drop of Onan's spermzoa falling on the ground haven't the slightest concern about him using his brother's wife, through fraud, as a sex toy.

Btw, "Onanism" in the matter at hand is an invention of the "enlightenment."  No connection that I've seen was ever draw by the Fathers to Onan.
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« Reply #31 on: April 30, 2012, 02:48:42 PM »

ya the act of spilling seed was a punishable offense in the OT

oh crap

again, rofl.
what if you if you are on the ground floor?  Watch out where you roll.
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« Reply #32 on: April 30, 2012, 02:50:03 PM »

What about a person who is going through puberty? Although it may still be a sin, erasable by confession, it may be a little more understandable because everybody has that time in their lives.

At what age does puberty end, again?
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« Reply #33 on: April 30, 2012, 02:51:46 PM »

What about a person who is going through puberty? Although it may still be a sin, erasable by confession, it may be a little more understandable because everybody has that time in their lives.

At what age does puberty end, again?

Well, each person is different. It's usually 11-16 or so.
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« Reply #34 on: April 30, 2012, 02:58:55 PM »

Hmm, maybe not...
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« Reply #35 on: April 30, 2012, 02:59:24 PM »

ya the act of spilling seed was a punishable offense in the OT

oh crap

again, rofl.
what if you if you are on the ground floor?  Watch out where you roll.

haha i'm rofling too much to pay any attention at this point!  Cheesy
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« Reply #36 on: April 30, 2012, 03:01:32 PM »

ya the act of spilling seed was a punishable offense in the OT
depends if you were spilling it in your neighbor's wife.  Or a goat.

rofl. i was talking about spilling it carelessly, i.e. on the ground.
Onan?  It never ceases to amuse me how those who are so incensed about every last drop of Onan's spermzoa falling on the ground haven't the slightest concern about him using his brother's wife, through fraud, as a sex toy.

Btw, "Onanism" in the matter at hand is an invention of the "enlightenment."  No connection that I've seen was ever draw by the Fathers to Onan.

St. Clement allegedly said this:

Clement of Alexandria, while not making explicit reference to Onan, similarly reflects an early Christian view of the abhorrence of '"spilling seed'":
 "Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly ejaculated, nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted"[7] "To have coitus other than to procreate children is to do injury to nature"[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onan
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« Reply #37 on: April 30, 2012, 03:02:54 PM »

Well, this is definitely one of the more interesting threads I've read in a while.

Watching it with interest, heh.
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« Reply #38 on: April 30, 2012, 03:06:56 PM »

St. Clement allegedly said this:

Clement of Alexandria, while not making explicit reference to Onan, similarly reflects an early Christian view of the abhorrence of '"spilling seed'":
 "Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly ejaculated, nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted"[7] "To have coitus other than to procreate children is to do injury to nature"[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onan
Clement of Alexandria isn't the source you want to go to for seed-related questions.


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« Reply #39 on: April 30, 2012, 03:08:13 PM »

Something I've been wondering for quite a while as well although I have never explicitely asked it, although I have mentioned my excessive habit of it. *sigh* Why does everything that feels good have to be bad or condemned? I know that all of the Fathers and everyone I ask would say that sexual pleasure is not bad if it is in the marriage context, but times have changed. Back when the Fathers and everything said this, it was not as heavy a burden to wait until marriage because you could get married at like age 14, but now most people do not even get married until their twenties. So clearly we have a much heavier burden on us in present times in terms of abstinence than the Fathers anticipated when they spoke of this. If I have to wait so long until I can really have sex, then I see no reason why I should not be allowed to masturbate to pass the time. If I am really expected to give all of this up for such a long time, then there is no hope for me because I can't and I do not even know if I am willing to. Masturbation is the one pleasure that makes everything to me feel better. And now I have to give it up? Sad
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« Reply #40 on: April 30, 2012, 03:11:42 PM »

In all honesty, I struggled with it a lot in my adolescence. I still do today, but less so. With me, it seems its sometimes purely out of lust, and sometimes out of anxiety (something I struggle with otherwise), adrenaline rush, or just generally being hyped up over something completely unrelated.
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« Reply #41 on: April 30, 2012, 03:13:44 PM »

Remember, the spirit over the flesh.
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« Reply #42 on: April 30, 2012, 03:16:02 PM »

Remember, the spirit over the flesh.

But Jesus redeemed the flesh? Fully God and fully Human?
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« Reply #43 on: April 30, 2012, 03:20:12 PM »

...Masturbation is the one pleasure that makes everything to me feel better. And now I have to give it up? Sad

Well, they are called crosses (that you're suppose to be carrying)...

I'm not being flippant. I'm in the same position as you, really. I'm just saying, it's not easy, but what are you gonna do? Some things are harder to deal with, some easier.

I just tell myself to not excuse things, but also not to get down about them. "Be perfect" is a goal to shoot for, not an expectation that we will probably achieve at this very moment. (actually I would argue that we'll never achieve it, because we'll always be growing more perfect)

Don't treat it like a non-issue, but also don't let it destroy your progress you are making. Also, use it as a reminder when you want to judge someone else. Maybe someone else's problem is just as difficult to overcome for them as this is for us.
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« Reply #44 on: April 30, 2012, 03:21:27 PM »

...Masturbation is the one pleasure that makes everything to me feel better. And now I have to give it up? Sad

Well, they are called crosses (that you're suppose to be carrying)...

I'm not being flippant. I'm in the same position as you, really. I'm just saying, it's not easy, but what are you gonna do? Some things are harder to deal with, some easier.

I just tell myself to not excuse things, but also not to get down about them. "Be perfect" is a goal to shoot for, not an expectation that we will probably achieve at this very moment. (actually I would argue that we'll never achieve it, because we'll always be growing more perfect)

Don't treat it like a non-issue, but also don't let it destroy your progress you are making. Also, use it as a reminder when you want to judge someone else. Maybe someone else's problem is just as difficult to overcome for them as this is for us.

Wow thanks, that is some good advice.
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You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
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« Reply #45 on: April 30, 2012, 03:27:06 PM »

...Masturbation is the one pleasure that makes everything to me feel better. And now I have to give it up? Sad

Well, they are called crosses (that you're suppose to be carrying)...

I'm not being flippant. I'm in the same position as you, really. I'm just saying, it's not easy, but what are you gonna do? Some things are harder to deal with, some easier.

I just tell myself to not excuse things, but also not to get down about them. "Be perfect" is a goal to shoot for, not an expectation that we will probably achieve at this very moment. (actually I would argue that we'll never achieve it, because we'll always be growing more perfect)

Don't treat it like a non-issue, but also don't let it destroy your progress you are making. Also, use it as a reminder when you want to judge someone else. Maybe someone else's problem is just as difficult to overcome for them as this is for us.

Wow thanks, that is some good advice.
Seconded.
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« Reply #46 on: April 30, 2012, 03:30:02 PM »

It's "allowed" when you're married because you can think about your spouse.
Are you Greek Orthodox?

Did you miss the words "Free For-All"?
No, I did not. Did you miss the phrase in the OP's question, "in the greek orthodox church"? Whereas no rule forbids you to comment on this thread while it's here on one of the Free-For-All boards, I just need to point out that unless you're Greek Orthodox you're probably not qualified to answer the OP's question as it's worded.
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« Reply #47 on: April 30, 2012, 03:33:27 PM »

...Masturbation is the one pleasure that makes everything to me feel better. And now I have to give it up? Sad

Well, they are called crosses (that you're suppose to be carrying)...

I'm not being flippant. I'm in the same position as you, really. I'm just saying, it's not easy, but what are you gonna do? Some things are harder to deal with, some easier.

I just tell myself to not excuse things, but also not to get down about them. "Be perfect" is a goal to shoot for, not an expectation that we will probably achieve at this very moment. (actually I would argue that we'll never achieve it, because we'll always be growing more perfect)

Don't treat it like a non-issue, but also don't let it destroy your progress you are making. Also, use it as a reminder when you want to judge someone else. Maybe someone else's problem is just as difficult to overcome for them as this is for us.

As of late, your posts have been very beneficial, deep and well thought out.  If I wanted to be cliche (God forbid) I might almost say "inspiring". 
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« Reply #48 on: April 30, 2012, 03:36:25 PM »

St. Clement allegedly said this:

Clement of Alexandria, while not making explicit reference to Onan, similarly reflects an early Christian view of the abhorrence of '"spilling seed'":
 "Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly ejaculated, nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted"[7] "To have coitus other than to procreate children is to do injury to nature"[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onan
Clement of Alexandria isn't the source you want to go to for seed-related questions.




can I get some syrup with those roffles?  Cheesy
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« Reply #49 on: April 30, 2012, 03:37:41 PM »

What about a person who is going through puberty? Although it may still be a sin, erasable by confession, it may be a little more understandable because everybody has that time in their lives.

At what age does puberty end, again?

Well, each person is different. It's usually 11-16 or so.

Each person is different.  Got it.  Then again, you didn't mess up your numbers, did you?  Could you possibly have meant 11-36??  Based on your initial statement, these ages seem a bit more realistic.  Just checking. 


 Wink
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« Reply #50 on: April 30, 2012, 03:39:43 PM »

Could you possibly have meant 11-36??  Based on your initial statement, these ages seem a bit more realistic.  Just checking Wink

Why do I find this strangely amusing? Smiley
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« Reply #51 on: April 30, 2012, 03:41:47 PM »

St. Clement allegedly said this:

Clement of Alexandria, while not making explicit reference to Onan, similarly reflects an early Christian view of the abhorrence of '"spilling seed'":
 "Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly ejaculated, nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted"[7] "To have coitus other than to procreate children is to do injury to nature"[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onan
Clement of Alexandria isn't the source you want to go to for seed-related questions.



Although it is odd, given his Stoic views, that he passes over Onan in silence.
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« Reply #52 on: April 30, 2012, 03:42:32 PM »

...Masturbation is the one pleasure that makes everything to me feel better. And now I have to give it up? Sad

Well, they are called crosses (that you're suppose to be carrying)...

I'm not being flippant. I'm in the same position as you, really. I'm just saying, it's not easy, but what are you gonna do? Some things are harder to deal with, some easier.

I just tell myself to not excuse things, but also not to get down about them. "Be perfect" is a goal to shoot for, not an expectation that we will probably achieve at this very moment. (actually I would argue that we'll never achieve it, because we'll always be growing more perfect)

Don't treat it like a non-issue, but also don't let it destroy your progress you are making. Also, use it as a reminder when you want to judge someone else. Maybe someone else's problem is just as difficult to overcome for them as this is for us.

Wow thanks, that is some good advice.
Seconded.
+3
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« Reply #53 on: April 30, 2012, 03:44:01 PM »

St. Clement allegedly said this:

Clement of Alexandria, while not making explicit reference to Onan, similarly reflects an early Christian view of the abhorrence of '"spilling seed'":
 "Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly ejaculated, nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted"[7] "To have coitus other than to procreate children is to do injury to nature"[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onan
Clement of Alexandria isn't the source you want to go to for seed-related questions.




can I get some syrup with those roffles?  Cheesy
got a thing for viscous fluids?
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« Reply #54 on: April 30, 2012, 04:09:42 PM »

St. Clement allegedly said this:

Clement of Alexandria, while not making explicit reference to Onan, similarly reflects an early Christian view of the abhorrence of '"spilling seed'":
 "Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly ejaculated, nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted"[7] "To have coitus other than to procreate children is to do injury to nature"[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onan
Clement of Alexandria isn't the source you want to go to for seed-related questions.




can I get some syrup with those roffles?  Cheesy
got a thing for viscous fluids?

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« Reply #55 on: April 30, 2012, 05:35:54 PM »

Could you possibly have meant 11-36??  Based on your initial statement, these ages seem a bit more realistic.  Just checking Wink

Why do I find this strangely amusing? Smiley

Because you are an intelligent young man that realizes the humor in truth!

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« Reply #56 on: April 30, 2012, 05:38:24 PM »

Could you possibly have meant 11-36??  Based on your initial statement, these ages seem a bit more realistic.  Just checking Wink

Why do I find this strangely amusing? Smiley

Because you are an intelligent young man that realizes the humor in truth!



 Grin
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« Reply #57 on: April 30, 2012, 05:39:33 PM »

I think that it is different for men and women.  For women, puberty lasts from about 11 - 16.  For men, it goes from around age 11 to 15 minutes after death.

What about a person who is going through puberty? Although it may still be a sin, erasable by confession, it may be a little more understandable because everybody has that time in their lives.

At what age does puberty end, again?

Well, each person is different. It's usually 11-16 or so.

Each person is different.  Got it.  Then again, you didn't mess up your numbers, did you?  Could you possibly have meant 11-36??  Based on your initial statement, these ages seem a bit more realistic.  Just checking. 


 Wink
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« Reply #58 on: April 30, 2012, 05:49:53 PM »

I think that it is different for men and women.  For women, puberty lasts from about 11 - 16.  For men, it goes from around age 11 to 15 minutes after death.

What about a person who is going through puberty? Although it may still be a sin, erasable by confession, it may be a little more understandable because everybody has that time in their lives.

At what age does puberty end, again?

Well, each person is different. It's usually 11-16 or so.

Each person is different.  Got it.  Then again, you didn't mess up your numbers, did you?  Could you possibly have meant 11-36??  Based on your initial statement, these ages seem a bit more realistic.  Just checking. 


 Wink
Actually, longer than 15 minutes.  Rigor mortis.  That has become an issue now that the Muslim Brotherhood has, on the basis of some Moroccan fatwa, declared that necrophelia is lawful (but destertable) between a married couple for six hours post mortem (no, I don't know how they arrived at six hours and no more, and no, I don't want to know).
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« Reply #59 on: April 30, 2012, 05:52:42 PM »

I wonder if these guys make their wives take cold showers before sex.

I think that it is different for men and women.  For women, puberty lasts from about 11 - 16.  For men, it goes from around age 11 to 15 minutes after death.

What about a person who is going through puberty? Although it may still be a sin, erasable by confession, it may be a little more understandable because everybody has that time in their lives.

At what age does puberty end, again?

Well, each person is different. It's usually 11-16 or so.

Each person is different.  Got it.  Then again, you didn't mess up your numbers, did you?  Could you possibly have meant 11-36??  Based on your initial statement, these ages seem a bit more realistic.  Just checking. 


 Wink
Actually, longer than 15 minutes.  Rigor mortis.  That has become an issue now that the Muslim Brotherhood has, on the basis of some Moroccan fatwa, declared that necrophelia is lawful (but destertable) between a married couple for six hours post mortem (no, I don't know how they arrived at six hours and no more, and no, I don't want to know).
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« Reply #60 on: April 30, 2012, 06:01:43 PM »

Could you possibly have meant 11-36??  Based on your initial statement, these ages seem a bit more realistic.  Just checking Wink

Why do I find this strangely amusing? Smiley

Because you are an intelligent young man that realizes the humor in truth!



Or more like a lascivious young boy semi-aroused by the mention of a woman masturbating?

Just kidding Cheesy
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« Reply #61 on: May 01, 2012, 10:35:34 AM »

It's "allowed" when you're married because you can think about your spouse.
Are you Greek Orthodox?

Did you miss the words "Free For-All"?
No, I did not. Did you miss the phrase in the OP's question, "in the greek orthodox church"? Whereas no rule forbids you to comment on this thread while it's here on one of the Free-For-All boards, I just need to point out that unless you're Greek Orthodox you're probably not qualified to answer the OP's question as it's worded.

Oddly enough, others responding to the op are also not Greek Orthodox and yet you have once again chosen to target me specifically.

If you want to get my attention, there are easier ways Peter  Wink
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« Reply #62 on: May 01, 2012, 10:37:43 AM »

I was thinking a little on this post last night. It had nothing to do with the fact my wife is out of town. That’s my story I’m sticking to it! Roll Eyes  As a non Orthodox I obviously cannot answer the direct question asked. The subject of masturbation in marriage came up though, and as a married man please allow me to ask a couple of questions…

I read once that the term ‘one flesh’ in modern English would be interpreted as ‘one being’ or ‘one organism’. Would this not be the basis of why masturbation is forbidden even in a marriage? If a single being separates itself for the purpose of self gratification then how (in that moment at least) can it be considered a single organism? Figuratively speaking would that not be the equivalent of chopping off an appendage? I think C.S. Lewis made the comparison to a latch and key or something like that. It is two parts of the same mechanism, each part being made to work in conjunction with the other. I suppose, of course, we could use the key without the latch, say, to open a can of paint or something. It would work though that it not its True purpose, and we do stand the chance of breaking the key when using it improperly, and by doing so destroy the entire mechanism latch and key.  

Then I considered what I think we all agree on that Marriage is a sacrament. It is also a contract between not just two but three; husband, wife, and God. If we go outside of the purpose, and contract, (will of God) is it still a sacrament?

Then of course there are the thoughts that often go along with self gratification. If a spouse is doing so fantasizing of someone other than their own spouse would we consider that lust in the mind that we are taught is adultery in our heart?

That brought me to the subject of mutual self gratification that was brought up. Important to note this is just my thought and opinion here. If a husband and wife ‘one flesh’ do something mutually together for  gratification of either or both, especially considering the husbands body belongs to the wife and vise versa, would that not be remaining within the confines of matrimony? Would that not be remaining as   one flesh (two parts of one mechanism operating together) and something to remain personal between husband, wife, and God?
 
Just my two cents if worth even that.
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« Reply #63 on: May 01, 2012, 10:38:20 AM »

I think that it is different for men and women.  For women, puberty lasts from about 11 - 16.  For men, it goes from around age 11 to 15 minutes after death.

What about a person who is going through puberty? Although it may still be a sin, erasable by confession, it may be a little more understandable because everybody has that time in their lives.

At what age does puberty end, again?

Well, each person is different. It's usually 11-16 or so.

Each person is different.  Got it.  Then again, you didn't mess up your numbers, did you?  Could you possibly have meant 11-36??  Based on your initial statement, these ages seem a bit more realistic.  Just checking. 


 Wink
Actually, longer than 15 minutes.  Rigor mortis.  That has become an issue now that the Muslim Brotherhood has, on the basis of some Moroccan fatwa, declared that necrophelia is lawful (but destertable) between a married couple for six hours post mortem (no, I don't know how they arrived at six hours and no more, and no, I don't want to know).

/shudders

 Grin
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« Reply #64 on: May 01, 2012, 11:00:04 AM »

An interesting post, alanscott Smiley Fwiw, I wonder if each of us don't have a different idea of what makes "one flesh". Is orgasm necessary? I would think not on that one. Just sexual intimacy, even before anything happens? I don't know. Is penetration necessary? What then of men who cannot get an erection (though I guess this is less an issue these days), are they thereby denied the ability to be of one flesh with their spouse? One could also argue that maturbation is not always self-gratifying, at least not any more than regular sex is sometimes. If variety is the spice of (sex) life, and a couple finds it beneficial to do such a thing in each other's company (even if each person takes care of themselves), then why not? Is being of one flesh about a physical act, or is it a deeper thing? Maybe my bias is showing here, but when I think about what is good about sex, I always found sex to be much more psychologically enjoyable than physiologically enjoyable... it's not about a specific action (e.g., penis enters...) or physical sensation, but rather exploring someone in intimate, vulnerable, and enjoyable ways, which result in a closer bond. In that sense either maturbating while in the presence of the spouse, or mutually doing so, isn't necessarily a problem. It's only a potential problem when it becomes a distorted act by the introduction of foreign elements, such as thinking about your neighbor while you do it. Though regarding someone not married, things are a bit different...
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« Reply #65 on: May 01, 2012, 11:08:13 AM »

It's "allowed" when you're married because you can think about your spouse.
Are you Greek Orthodox?

Did you miss the words "Free For-All"?
No, I did not. Did you miss the phrase in the OP's question, "in the greek orthodox church"? Whereas no rule forbids you to comment on this thread while it's here on one of the Free-For-All boards, I just need to point out that unless you're Greek Orthodox you're probably not qualified to answer the OP's question as it's worded.

Oddly enough, others responding to the op are also not Greek Orthodox and yet you have once again chosen to target me specifically.

If you want to get my attention, there are easier ways Peter  Wink
everyone who posted (except Alanscott, who just posted) was Orthodox or Orthodox background.
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« Reply #66 on: May 01, 2012, 11:16:57 AM »

I was thinking a little on this post last night. It had nothing to do with the fact my wife is out of town. That’s my story I’m sticking to it! Roll Eyes
 
and what are you sticking to it with? Roll Eyes

That brought me to the subject of mutual self gratification that was brought up. Important to note this is just my thought and opinion here. If a husband and wife ‘one flesh’ do something mutually together for  gratification of either or both, especially considering the husbands body belongs to the wife and vise versa, would that not be remaining within the confines of matrimony? Would that not be remaining as   one flesh (two parts of one mechanism operating together) and something to remain personal between husband, wife, and God?
This is sort of a litmus test issue: how one answers it pretty much divide you up into schools that determine your answer to the OP.

Some would say that it is definitely not "one flesh."  Most the patristics that Humanae Vitae apologists depend on, and Orthodox who abhor contraception, fall here.

Others would OK it, as long as it ended up in ejaculation in vaginal intercourse.  Most Humanae Vitae apologists fall here.

Others, like me, would say it is "one flesh."

The first two groups would condemn (self)masturbation as "mortal sin" or some such thing. The last would more or less focus on what part lust is involved.
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« Reply #67 on: May 01, 2012, 12:18:02 PM »

I was thinking a little on this post last night. It had nothing to do with the fact my wife is out of town. That’s my story I’m sticking to it! Roll Eyes
 
and what are you sticking to it with? Roll Eyes


Dude!!!  police   Grin

You bring up an aspect of theology I have yet to delve into at any real depth. Pun Not intended, behave yourself ialmisry!  Wink

All kidding aside is Humanae Vitae not based on intimacy between husband and wife being for procreation only?  The question I have is how does that hold up when by most all accounts even after a woman reaches menopause, and can no longer conceive a child, both her and her husband (one flesh) still have sexual desires for each other and fulfillment from intimacy both spiritually and physical? Obviously, in my mind, it is no longer for procreation thus Humanae Vitae becomes in question, or a husband and wife should no longer have intimate relations at all. Thoughts?
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« Reply #68 on: May 01, 2012, 12:42:23 PM »

It's "allowed" when you're married because you can think about your spouse.
Are you Greek Orthodox?

Did you miss the words "Free For-All"?
No, I did not. Did you miss the phrase in the OP's question, "in the greek orthodox church"? Whereas no rule forbids you to comment on this thread while it's here on one of the Free-For-All boards, I just need to point out that unless you're Greek Orthodox you're probably not qualified to answer the OP's question as it's worded.

Oddly enough, others responding to the op are also not Greek Orthodox and yet you have once again chosen to target me specifically.
Have you happened to notice that I addressed you very early in this thread, long before others drove this thread completely off the rails? Your post, which I confronted, was the first reply on this thread.
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« Reply #69 on: May 01, 2012, 12:54:37 PM »

I was thinking a little on this post last night. It had nothing to do with the fact my wife is out of town. That’s my story I’m sticking to it! Roll Eyes
 
and what are you sticking to it with? Roll Eyes


Dude!!!  police   Grin

You bring up an aspect of theology I have yet to delve into at any real depth. Pun Not intended, behave yourself ialmisry!  Wink

All kidding aside is Humanae Vitae not based on intimacy between husband and wife being for procreation only?  The question I have is how does that hold up when by most all accounts even after a woman reaches menopause, and can no longer conceive a child, both her and her husband (one flesh) still have sexual desires for each other and fulfillment from intimacy both spiritually and physical? Obviously, in my mind, it is no longer for procreation thus Humanae Vitae becomes in question, or a husband and wife should no longer have intimate relations at all. Thoughts?

LOL. Plenty. For example
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,21230.0.html
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,29748.0.html
and not for the faint hearted (nor anally shocked Shocked):
Definitions of Masturbation and Other Relating Matters
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,38152.msg639898.html#msg639898

But to your suspecific question, HV was drawn by those who had no knowledge of what you speak (and in opposition to the majority report of its appointed committee who evidently did), living in a universe of mandated celibacy which created a society in which mysogeny and virginal arrogance and pride feeds perpetually on itself, and spews such things out.  The very idea of those advanced beyond reproductive years thinking of marital intimacy-they would be shocked, as they could see no other purpose but "begetting virgins" (to cite one of their favorite phrases from St. Jerome) for one to engage in the distasteful task of the dirty deed.

We have our share of the why-defile-yourself-with-a-daughter-of-Eve-when-you-can-live-the-life-of-angels ilk, but quite a number of widowed bishops (St. Innocent, the Great Apostle and Enlightener of Alaska being a fine example), and the context of their married clergy, the majority of priests, and also our strong tradition of lay theologians, mostly in the past monastics, it's true, but also married Faithful (Paul Evdokim comes to mind, and in this context), keep them at bay.

Many apologists for HV will evade saying that past child bearing a couple should live "like brother and sister," but the patristics they cite for HV and the sources HV itself cites leads to that conclusion.
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« Reply #70 on: May 01, 2012, 01:43:55 PM »

It's "allowed" when you're married because you can think about your spouse.
Are you Greek Orthodox?

Did you miss the words "Free For-All"?
No, I did not. Did you miss the phrase in the OP's question, "in the greek orthodox church"? Whereas no rule forbids you to comment on this thread while it's here on one of the Free-For-All boards, I just need to point out that unless you're Greek Orthodox you're probably not qualified to answer the OP's question as it's worded.

Oddly enough, others responding to the op are also not Greek Orthodox and yet you have once again chosen to target me specifically.
Have you happened to notice that I addressed you very early in this thread, long before others drove this thread completely off the rails? Your post, which I confronted, was the first reply on this thread.

[Beavis and Butthead laughter] He said, "rails".  [/Beavis and Butthead laughter]
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« Reply #71 on: May 01, 2012, 02:16:19 PM »

If I scratch my back because it feels good, that is OK.  If I rub my foot because it is tired and it feels good, that is OK.  But if I rub Mr. Happy and make him feel good, then it is a sin?  I really do not think so.  Also, why all the fuss about what the wife thinks?  How long has some of you been married?  When you get to a certain age, many wives appreciate your ability to take care of your own problems occasionally.  That is why you have two hands with opposing thumbs.  If masturbation was all that bad, John Thomas would be on your back where you couldn't reach him.
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« Reply #72 on: May 01, 2012, 02:24:24 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Wow the decision is Ecumenical, "Go ask your priest."

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #73 on: May 01, 2012, 02:34:22 PM »

If I scratch my back because it feels good, that is OK.  If I rub my foot because it is tired and it feels good, that is OK.  But if I rub Mr. Happy and make him feel good, then it is a sin?  I really do not think so.  Also, why all the fuss about what the wife thinks?  How long has some of you been married?  When you get to a certain age, many wives appreciate your ability to take care of your own problems occasionally.  That is why you have two hands with opposing thumbs.  If masturbation was all that bad, John Thomas would be on your back where you couldn't reach him.

do you lust or fantasize when you scratch your back though? it's pretty much part and parcel of masturbation to do the former 2 things.
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« Reply #74 on: May 01, 2012, 02:51:58 PM »

Referring back to the OP, I think this post from a Greek Orthodox priest (who also happens to be our forum admin) offers a lot of insight into what the Greek Orthodox Church says about masturbation:

I have heard that, among RC and EO confessors, a penitent who struggles with frequent Masturbation is not always required to abstain from Communion.  I was told by my confessor that this issue which I struggle with should not deny me the chance to partake of the sacrament every sunday.  In fact, while he admitted that the Church holds it as a "gravely disordered act" my case it would not be considered a mortal sin due to his judgment on the state of my personality and factors which mitigated its seriousness. 

I was at first puzzled by this, but I have heard that there are factors which mitigate the seriousness of this sin and that many confessors advice their penitents to receive Communion frequently as a way to combat this disordered act.  I trust in the judgment of my confessor in this matter, yet my mind is still sometimes plagued with doubts. 
Is this the usual practice of EO confessors, as well as RC ones?

I suppose it depends on the person's individual struggle with the issue, and how often they've come for correction.  I find a 3-step response appropriate:

1. Why is it (action, not person) bad?  With masturbation, this answer must be comprehensive, covering the various physical (addiction), social (withdrawl, disordered view of relationships, etc.), and spiritual ailments it (and its usual compatriot, pornography) can lead to.  I do not think that folks fully grasp how serious the entire experience is; when they hear about how long it takes to flush an image from our memory/consciousness*, how addictive sexual stimulation actually is (i.e. the rat study with 1 heroin group and 1 sexually stimulated group), etc., they fully understand the Church's wisdom in discouraging the practice.

2. How available forgiveness is.  You know, speaking about St. Mary of Egypt, the Thief on the Cross, etc.

3. How to combat it.  Full-scale spiritual assault on the passion.

Of course, this methodology is usually fairly effective with speaking with someone who is confronting a passion for the first time.

* Father Nathaniel (of blessed memory) of St. Theodore the Studite Monastery in Galion, OH (formerly of St. Gregory Palamas in Hayesville, OH) once went to our Summer Camp to give a presentation about contemporary TV.  This was about 20 years ago.  Before going to camp, he had a friend record about 20 minutes of MTV (at a random point in the day - nothing specific).  He took the recording to camp, and played about 15-16 minutes of it, describing the various occult, sexual, and satanic images that would pop up in the videos.  He did not prepare in advance for the presentation (i.e. when he saw the video with the kids, it was his first time seeing it).  The presentation shocked the kids; but more so his final reflection (my paraphrase): "It will take me 4 1/2 months of intense praying and fasting to rid my mind of these images."  As my koumbaro pointed out to others that day, that's assuming a monastic definition of intense prayer and fasting.
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« Reply #75 on: May 01, 2012, 02:52:48 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Wow the decision is Ecumenical, "Go ask your priest."

stay blessed,
habte selassie
I can't make out what the pictures in the book are of.
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« Reply #76 on: May 01, 2012, 02:55:22 PM »

If I scratch my back because it feels good, that is OK.  If I rub my foot because it is tired and it feels good, that is OK.  But if I rub Mr. Happy and make him feel good, then it is a sin?  I really do not think so.  Also, why all the fuss about what the wife thinks?  How long has some of you been married?  When you get to a certain age, many wives appreciate your ability to take care of your own problems occasionally.  That is why you have two hands with opposing thumbs.  If masturbation was all that bad, John Thomas would be on your back where you couldn't reach him.

"If only it were so easy to dispel hunger, by rubbing the belly."

-Diogenes of Sinope

Edit: While he wasn't Greek Orthodox, he was Greek, so his opinion should carry 50% weight in this debate.
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« Reply #77 on: May 01, 2012, 03:00:34 PM »

Is masturbation allows for teenagers in the greek orthodox church. If not, why? Is it allowed when you are married.

God purifies, Satan pollutes, and man must choose which he will do. Masturbation is not an act leading to purification, but to pollution. It is not the will of God that man pollute himself, for God made him pure like the angels. Nonetheless, God shows great mercy to sinners and restores purity to those who repent of their sins. But how are we to receive God's grace through repentance if we refuse to call our impure actions sins, as they are? We need to be honest, both about sin and how we swim in it, about ourselves and our weakness, but most importantly about God's love and care for us and how the angels rejoice more over one who repents than over 99 righteous persons.
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« Reply #78 on: May 01, 2012, 03:03:02 PM »

[This Post, A Mistake]
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« Reply #79 on: May 01, 2012, 03:12:53 PM »

Is masturbation allows for teenagers in the greek orthodox church. If not, why? Is it allowed when you are married.

God purifies, Satan pollutes, and man must choose which he will do. Masturbation is not an act leading to purification, but to pollution. It is not the will of God that man pollute himself, for God made him pure like the angels. Nonetheless, God shows great mercy to sinners and restores purity to those who repent of their sins. But how are we to receive God's grace through repentance if we refuse to call our impure actions sins, as they are? We need to be honest, both about sin and how we swim in it, about ourselves and our weakness, but most importantly about God's love and care for us and how the angels rejoice more over one who repents than over 99 righteous persons.
I think of it like smoking and drinking.  Is that the type of pollution you are speaking of?

Angels do not marry, but they can fall.  I'm not sure of their relevance, given that they are not made in the image and likeness of God, and so man was not made like them.
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« Reply #80 on: May 01, 2012, 03:13:53 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Wow the decision is Ecumenical, "Go ask your priest."

stay blessed,
habte selassie
I can't make out what the pictures in the book are of.

It's the Koran.  Pope Benedict is about to make the others kiss it.
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« Reply #81 on: May 01, 2012, 03:16:22 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Wow the decision is Ecumenical, "Go ask your priest."

stay blessed,
habte selassie
I can't make out what the pictures in the book are of.

It's the Koran.
LOL.  Not if it has pictures.

Pope Benedict is about to make the others kiss it.
not after the bru-ha-ha over his acomments, I don't think so.
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« Reply #82 on: May 01, 2012, 03:47:00 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Wow the decision is Ecumenical, "Go ask your priest."

stay blessed,
habte selassie
I can't make out what the pictures in the book are of.

It's the Koran.
LOL.  Not if it has pictures.

It's the unauthorized illustrated version published in Denmark.

Quote
Pope Benedict is about to make the others kiss it.
not after the bru-ha-ha over his acomments, I don't think so.

That's just what he WANTS you to think.
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« Reply #83 on: May 01, 2012, 03:49:47 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Wow the decision is Ecumenical, "Go ask your priest."

stay blessed,
habte selassie
I can't make out what the pictures in the book are of.

It's the Koran.  Pope Benedict is about to make the others kiss it.

"just give it a little kiss there...it won't hurt anything. You might like it!"
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« Reply #84 on: May 01, 2012, 04:01:31 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Wow the decision is Ecumenical, "Go ask your priest."

stay blessed,
habte selassie
I can't make out what the pictures in the book are of.

It's the Koran.  Pope Benedict is about to make the others kiss it.

"just give it a little kiss there...it won't hurt anything. You might like it!"

I feel kinda dirty having read that.  It's not easy to make me feel dirty.   Wink
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« Reply #85 on: May 01, 2012, 04:02:34 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Wow the decision is Ecumenical, "Go ask your priest."

stay blessed,
habte selassie
I can't make out what the pictures in the book are of.

It's the Koran.
LOL.  Not if it has pictures.

It's the unauthorized illustrated version published in Denmark.

LOL.  Cheesy
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« Reply #86 on: May 01, 2012, 04:14:10 PM »

Referring back to the OP, I think this post from a Greek Orthodox priest (who also happens to be our forum admin) offers a lot of insight into what the Greek Orthodox Church says about masturbation:

I have heard that, among RC and EO confessors, a penitent who struggles with frequent Masturbation is not always required to abstain from Communion.  I was told by my confessor that this issue which I struggle with should not deny me the chance to partake of the sacrament every sunday.  In fact, while he admitted that the Church holds it as a "gravely disordered act" my case it would not be considered a mortal sin due to his judgment on the state of my personality and factors which mitigated its seriousness. 

I was at first puzzled by this, but I have heard that there are factors which mitigate the seriousness of this sin and that many confessors advice their penitents to receive Communion frequently as a way to combat this disordered act.  I trust in the judgment of my confessor in this matter, yet my mind is still sometimes plagued with doubts. 
Is this the usual practice of EO confessors, as well as RC ones?

I suppose it depends on the person's individual struggle with the issue, and how often they've come for correction.  I find a 3-step response appropriate:

1. Why is it (action, not person) bad?  With masturbation, this answer must be comprehensive, covering the various physical (addiction), social (withdrawl, disordered view of relationships, etc.), and spiritual ailments it (and its usual compatriot, pornography) can lead to.  I do not think that folks fully grasp how serious the entire experience is; when they hear about how long it takes to flush an image from our memory/consciousness*, how addictive sexual stimulation actually is (i.e. the rat study with 1 heroin group and 1 sexually stimulated group), etc., they fully understand the Church's wisdom in discouraging the practice.

2. How available forgiveness is.  You know, speaking about St. Mary of Egypt, the Thief on the Cross, etc.

3. How to combat it.  Full-scale spiritual assault on the passion.

Of course, this methodology is usually fairly effective with speaking with someone who is confronting a passion for the first time.

* Father Nathaniel (of blessed memory) of St. Theodore the Studite Monastery in Galion, OH (formerly of St. Gregory Palamas in Hayesville, OH) once went to our Summer Camp to give a presentation about contemporary TV.  This was about 20 years ago.  Before going to camp, he had a friend record about 20 minutes of MTV (at a random point in the day - nothing specific).  He took the recording to camp, and played about 15-16 minutes of it, describing the various occult, sexual, and satanic images that would pop up in the videos.  He did not prepare in advance for the presentation (i.e. when he saw the video with the kids, it was his first time seeing it).  The presentation shocked the kids; but more so his final reflection (my paraphrase): "It will take me 4 1/2 months of intense praying and fasting to rid my mind of these images."  As my koumbaro pointed out to others that day, that's assuming a monastic definition of intense prayer and fasting.

I think Fr. George had a good take on the issue.  As funny as I think this subject is (because I am immature) it is probably one of the harder sins to combat.  I have found that the best way to fight sin is to replace it with something good.  If you hate then you should focus on love.  If you are lazy you should remain active.  If you have greed you should try giving.  (There are plenty more, but you get the picture and those are ones I have dealt with so I will stick with what I know.)  The problem with pleasures of the fleshy bit, are that it seems that the only way to deal with them are by deprivation.  I find the necessary deprivation to be something that is very hard to put myself through.  If I fast and pray a lot I can combat it more often than not.  But, I know I struggle more than I succeed.  God usually won't send us a temptation without a means of escape (so saith St. Paul).  St. Paul gives us marriage as a second means of combating this temptation, but there are lots of variables to this method and if one party doesn't want to, then it's back to deprivation or sin for the other.

Oh well, not trying to find excuses for it, but I guess I'm just saying that anyone who fights against this sin is up against one hell of a battle.
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« Reply #87 on: May 01, 2012, 10:55:55 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Wow the decision is Ecumenical, "Go ask your priest."

stay blessed,
habte selassie
I can't make out what the pictures in the book are of.
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« Reply #88 on: May 02, 2012, 08:52:54 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Wow the decision is Ecumenical, "Go ask your priest."

stay blessed,
habte selassie
I can't make out what the pictures in the book are of.

dare ya to change the wiki pic to that and take a screenie... Wink

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad

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« Reply #89 on: May 02, 2012, 09:57:29 AM »

It's "allowed" when you're married because you can think about your spouse.
Are you Greek Orthodox?

Did you miss the words "Free For-All"?
No, I did not. Did you miss the phrase in the OP's question, "in the greek orthodox church"? Whereas no rule forbids you to comment on this thread while it's here on one of the Free-For-All boards, I just need to point out that unless you're Greek Orthodox you're probably not qualified to answer the OP's question as it's worded.

Oddly enough, others responding to the op are also not Greek Orthodox and yet you have once again chosen to target me specifically.
Have you happened to notice that I addressed you very early in this thread, long before others drove this thread completely off the rails? Your post, which I confronted, was the first reply on this thread.

Seems that your time would have been better spent keeping the thread on track then.
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« Reply #90 on: May 02, 2012, 10:05:47 AM »

I don't understand this strange idea about keeping threads on track. The second law law of forumdynamics clearly states that threads naturally tend to progress from order (on topic) to disorder (off topic). This is one of the four basic principles in all online discussion!
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« Reply #91 on: May 02, 2012, 10:44:47 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Wow the decision is Ecumenical, "Go ask your priest."

stay blessed,
habte selassie
I can't make out what the pictures in the book are of.

dare ya to change the wiki pic to that and take a screenie... Wink

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad



Haha!  Could you imagine that?  That bear with a turban on his head and...

Anyone got an idea why there is an Arabic man standing in the corner with a kitchen knife...oh crap...
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« Reply #92 on: May 02, 2012, 04:15:20 PM »

You are supposed to avoid lust if you can (see, for example, Matt. 5:27-28). There are other ideas for why people say you shouldn't masturbate, but the lust reason usually covers most people.

That passage does not say to avoid lust.  If you condemn all who lust then you condemn even Jesus Christ and His Holy Apostle.  For even Christ said, "With lust (epithymia) I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer.'"  (Luke 22:16)  Likewise, the Holy Apostle said, "But, brothers and sisters, when we were orphaned by being separated from you for a short time, out of our lust (epithymia) we made every effort to see you."  (1 Thessalonians 2:17)   See also 1 Timothy 6:9, "Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful lusts (epithymia) that plunge people into ruin and destruction." 

There are harmful lusts on one hand while, on the other hand, there are holy and honorable lusts.  The good contexts or bad contexts are what make the intense desires good or bad.  Intense desire, "lust," "epithymia," is not sinful in and of itself.

The passage from Matthew you cited says, “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’  But I tell you that anyone who looks at a wife lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."  The context is adultery, and the sinful act is looking at another man's wife with intense desire (epithymia).  That's all the passage says.  Lust for your own wife, or perhaps even your future wife, is never condemned in holy Scripture.  In fact, such lusts are sung about joyfully in the Song of Solomon.
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« Reply #93 on: May 02, 2012, 04:21:05 PM »

It's "allowed" when you're married because you can think about your spouse.

You can think about your spouse even before you marry her.  If you know your future spouse, then you can easily think about her.   In fact, such lusts are sung about joyfully in the Song of Solomon both before and after the wedding.  As I said just above, "lust" (epithymia in the Greek, or "intense desire") is not always bad.  Even if you've never met your future wife personally, you can take some best guesses at her characteristics and think about her (or even "lust" for "her") in a general sense.  I don't see anything wrong with that.  

I'm not saying people should or shouldn't do such things, but if someone felt he should then I certainly would not try to stop him.
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« Reply #94 on: May 02, 2012, 04:35:54 PM »

I've been reading this thread and trying to formulate a decent response (which this probably isn't but I can't hold it in any longer) to all the manure being spread about in here about masturbation and...oh, hell, I'm just going to call it what it is because it's a vulgar thing to begin with (note, the rest of this post will probably ruffle the feathers of the more innocent among us, you know who you are): anyone trying to justify beating off are just a bunch of wankers.  Period.  And you're proving it.

This is my take on it, a take from someone who literally jerked away one good relationship that was leading to marriage and has, at times, come dangerously close to doing the same within my marriage.  I am only going to talk about this topic within the confines of a marriage (including non-married cohabitating couples) relationship because that's what I'm familiar with.  I'm not going to quote this Father or that Bible verse because that's a bunch of bull$#!+ to and anyone that does that to justify mono-masturbation knows it.  I'm going with the gut feeling (what those nasty Catholics call "natural law") from being raised in the Christian faith and practicing it my whole life aside from a small period of apostasy in my early 20s.  

When you get married (or enter into a long term cohabitating relationship that, for all intents and purposes outside the law, is marriage and if you don't think it is (legal standing aside), you're fooling yourself: get your head out of your anal cavity), your body is no longer your own.  It belongs to your partner/spouse.  Taking matters into your own hands, even if you're thinking about that other person, is an incredibly selfish act, one that mars the relationship by saying, in effect, "I don't need you.  I don't want you.  I'm not giving myself to you anymore, I'm just taking."  

As Christians, we are not. supposed. to. do. that.  Your spouse is you.  You no longer live for yourself.  This is why monks often say that living as a married person in the world is more difficult than living as a hermetic monastic.  It's easy to be responsible for oneself; it's incredibly hard to be responsible for another, to the point of dying for the other person, if need be.  By wanking, you are, in effect, living for yourself and not for the other.  THAT is why it is sinful.  NO Christian worth his salt should be living for himself but ready to lay down the life for his friends.  All this yapping about conditions and Onanism and the like misses the point.  Indeed, some of us who are most critical of Thomism sound like doctors of scholasticism; the reasons given in this thread as to when and why masturbation is alright and even laudable would make the head spin of the most Talmudic of rabbis.  When you masturbate, no matter who you are thinking of, you are no longer living for the other and no longer doing God's will, but your own.  We are to constantly strive to do God's will and live for someone else.

But, at the same time, in the great scheme of things, it's no big deal.  It's a sin.  Accept it as such, confess it when you do it, and get over it.  Don't let it frack your live up, because it will.  That little hormone that's released right at the moment of ejaculation is incredibly addictive.  You know what I'm talking about.  Don't fool yourself.  I said I wasn't going to quote Scripture, but what St. Paul meant about marriage being given to us to soothe the burning is that even that the base animal impetus to massage a sexual organ for pleasure can have a wonderful and truly inspiring and self-emptying consequence when one offers that part of one's life to the partner of a marriage bed.  

Now stop playing with yourself and go to confession. Wink
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« Reply #95 on: May 02, 2012, 04:36:52 PM »

Something I've been wondering for quite a while as well although I have never explicitely asked it, although I have mentioned my excessive habit of it. *sigh* Why does everything that feels good have to be bad or condemned? I know that all of the Fathers and everyone I ask would say that sexual pleasure is not bad if it is in the marriage context, but times have changed. Back when the Fathers and everything said this, it was not as heavy a burden to wait until marriage because you could get married at like age 14, but now most people do not even get married until their twenties. So clearly we have a much heavier burden on us in present times in terms of abstinence than the Fathers anticipated when they spoke of this. If I have to wait so long until I can really have sex, then I see no reason why I should not be allowed to masturbate to pass the time. If I am really expected to give all of this up for such a long time, then there is no hope for me because I can't and I do not even know if I am willing to. Masturbation is the one pleasure that makes everything to me feel better. And now I have to give it up? Sad

It doesn't have to be bad for you.  It has to be bad for many though because, unfortunately:
"The Spirit clearly said that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons... They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.  If you point these things out to the brothers and sisters, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed." (1 Timothy 4)

We have been warned that many will infect the church with legalism the same what the Pharisees infected Judaism.  If something brings joy, expect many in the church to tell you it is bad.  But don't necessarily listen to them.  Sometimes the things that can become sinful in excess or when used the wrong way are actually gifts from God when used properly and in moderation.
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« Reply #96 on: May 02, 2012, 04:41:33 PM »

You are supposed to avoid lust if you can (see, for example, Matt. 5:27-28). There are other ideas for why people say you shouldn't masturbate, but the lust reason usually covers most people.

That passage does not say to avoid lust.  If you condemn all who lust then you condemn even Jesus Christ and His Holy Apostle.  For even Christ said, "With lust (epithymia) I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer.'"  (Luke 22:16)  Likewise, the Holy Apostle said, "But, brothers and sisters, when we were orphaned by being separated from you for a short time, out of our lust (epithymia) we made every effort to see you."  (1 Thessalonians 2:17)   See also 1 Timothy 6:9, "Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful lusts (epithymia) that plunge people into ruin and destruction." 

There are harmful lusts on one hand while, on the other hand, there are holy and honorable lusts.  The good contexts or bad contexts are what make the intense desires good or bad.  Intense desire, "lust," "epithymia," is not sinful in and of itself.

The passage from Matthew you cited says, “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’  But I tell you that anyone who looks at a wife lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."  The context is adultery, and the sinful act is looking at another man's wife with intense desire (epithymia).  That's all the passage says.  Lust for your own wife, or perhaps even your future wife, is never condemned in holy Scripture.  In fact, such lusts are sung about joyfully in the Song of Solomon.

True, the word used in the Gospel can mean both wife or any woman generally. You argue for wife based on the word adultery being part of the context, but I think there is another type of context to consider: the cultural context. At that time girls would have had their marriages planned (and taken place) by the early teens. Thus if you were looking at an attractive girl who wasn't someone's wife or fiancee you were probably looking at a kid. In that case, you had bigger issues to deal with than ordinary old lust. But the larger question I would have is, how did Christians throughout the centuries interpret the passage? Based on what I've read, they seemed to speak against lust generally, and didn't give allowances in the rare occasions that someone a bit older was unmarried. To complement this, they said the same thing about young teenaged boys. True, some had exaggerated (=distorted) ideas about this, but I'm not sure I've come across a Father yet who says lust is ok. St. John Chrysostom and perhaps others say that natural attraction is ok, but then lust is a distortion of natural attraction.
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« Reply #97 on: May 02, 2012, 04:48:37 PM »

... This is my take on it, a take from someone who literally jerked away one good relationship that was leading to marriage and has, at times, come dangerously close to doing the same within my marriage.

When you get married ... your body is no longer your own.  It belongs to your partner/spouse.  Taking matters into your own hands, even if you're thinking about that other person, is an incredibly selfish act...  By wanking, you are, in effect, living for yourself and not for the other.  THAT is why it is sinful.

But, at the same time, in the great scheme of things, it's no big deal.  It's a sin.  Accept it as such, confess it when you do it, and get over it.  Don't let it frack your live up, because it will.  That little hormone that's released right at the moment of ejaculation is incredibly addictive.  You know what I'm talking about.  Don't fool yourself.  ... Now stop playing with yourself and go to confession. Wink

My personal opinion is that masturbation can be good or sinful; it depends.  You limited yourself to the marital context, so I'll follow you there.  You correctly said that your body is not your own when you're married.  However, that doesn't make masturbation a sin.  There are many wives who would ask or even beg their man to masturbate if his drive is very much higher than hers.  Or visa versa.  There are all kinds of people out there.  We can't just willy nilly judge everyone by the standards we've learned to judge ourselves by.

I really don't think the answer for everyone is "masturbation is our cross, a problem" and, "no masturbation is just a goal to shoot for... we can't expect to be perfect."   That seems terribly unhealthy and totally unnatural to me.  Masturbation is something God created.  Infants do it.  There is nothing wrong with it per se.  Now it may be wrong for you or for me if we sense it becoming unhealthy in our lives or if the Spirit leads us away from in whatever context we're living in.  I'm sorry to hear it became a problem for you.  But there is no reason to categorize it as "a problem" for everyone.  If it doesn't bother someone's conscience and he wants to do it once in a while, then he can do it.

Yes, it is "addictive" as you say (or at least can be).  But so is alcohol.  

It is good to realize that we need to be growing in perfection.  But I think it is damaging to say, "Oh, such and such is a sin but we can't stop doing it so just get over it, and confess it regularly."  We can stop sinning and we must.  We can't help but sin un-intentionally, but we can and must avoid deliberate, intentional sin.  If masturbation is a sin, then we need to stop doing it.  Period.  

Man-made teachings that have no real basis in Scripture or the Fathers (like the teaching that masturbation is a sin) only serve to make people think Christianity is a harder religion than it is.  Jesus said, "Come to me, my burden is easy."  Of course it is also difficult, it is not only a bed of roses.  But in context (Matthew 11 and 12), Christ was saying His way is easy when comparing His way to the legalistic religious peoples way.  They often forbid important pleasures in life.  For instance, back then they forbade being alone with a single woman, or often even sitting next to her.  Many forbade certain sexual positions even in marriage.  They may have even forbade masturbation.  They forbade all sorts of things.

These religious legalistic people still today have all sorts of rules that are extremely difficult for many to follow, and Christ's point was that His Way was easy compared to theirs.

"Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?"  Acts 15:10
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« Reply #98 on: May 02, 2012, 04:49:17 PM »

...Masturbation is the one pleasure that makes everything to me feel better. And now I have to give it up? Sad

Well, they are called crosses (that you're suppose to be carrying)...

I'm not being flippant. I'm in the same position as you, really. I'm just saying, it's not easy, but what are you gonna do? Some things are harder to deal with, some easier.

I just tell myself to not excuse things, but also not to get down about them. "Be perfect" is a goal to shoot for, not an expectation that we will probably achieve at this very moment. (actually I would argue that we'll never achieve it, because we'll always be growing more perfect)

Don't treat it like a non-issue, but also don't let it destroy your progress you are making. Also, use it as a reminder when you want to judge someone else. Maybe someone else's problem is just as difficult to overcome for them as this is for us.

I really don't think the answer is to say "masturbation is our cross, a problem" and, "no masturbation is just a goal to shoot for... we can't expect to be perfect."   That seems terribly unhealthy and totally unnatural to me.  Masturbation is something God created.  Infants do it.  There is nothing wrong with it per se.  Now it may be wrong for you or for me if we sense it becoming unhealthy in our lives or if the Spirit leads us away from in whatever context we're living in.   But there is no reason to simply categorize it as "a problem" or "a cross" for everyone.  If it doesn't bother someone's conscience and he wants to do it once in a while, then he can do it.

It is good to realize that we need to be growing in perfection.  But I think it is damaging to say, "Oh, such and such is a sin but we can't stop doing it so just get over it."  We can stop sinning and we must.  We can't help but sin un-intentionally, but we can and must avoid deliberate, intentional sin.  If masturbation is a sin, then we need to stop doing it.  Period.  Man-made teachings that have no real basis in Scripture or the Fathers (like the teaching that masturbation is a sin) only serve to make people think Christianity is a harder religion than it is.

Jesus said, "Come to me, my burden is easy."  Of course it is also difficult, it is not only a bed of roses.  But in context (Matthew 11 and 12), Christ was saying His way is easy when comparing His way to the legalistic religious peoples way.  They often forbid important pleasures in life.  For instance, back then they forbade being alone with a single woman, or often even sitting next to her.  Many forbade certain sexual positions even in marriage.  They may have even forbade masturbation.  They forbade all sorts of things.

These religious legalistic people have all sorts of rules that are extremely difficult to follow, and Christ's point was that His Way was easy compared to theirs.  

"Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?"  Acts 15:10
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« Reply #99 on: May 02, 2012, 04:50:39 PM »

Still missing the point, but whatever.  Do what you want.  I have my own sins (being a wanker included) to worry about. 
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« Reply #100 on: May 02, 2012, 04:51:18 PM »

I've been reading this thread and trying to formulate a decent response (which this probably isn't but I can't hold it in any longer) to all the manure being spread about in here about masturbation and...oh, hell, I'm just going to call it what it is because it's a vulgar thing to begin with (note, the rest of this post will probably ruffle the feathers of the more innocent among us, you know who you are): anyone trying to justify beating off are just a bunch of wankers.  Period.  And you're proving it.

This is my take on it, a take from someone who literally jerked away one good relationship that was leading to marriage and has, at times, come dangerously close to doing the same within my marriage.  I am only going to talk about this topic within the confines of a marriage (including non-married cohabitating couples) relationship because that's what I'm familiar with.  I'm not going to quote this Father or that Bible verse because that's a bunch of bull$#!+ to and anyone that does that to justify mono-masturbation knows it.  I'm going with the gut feeling (what those nasty Catholics call "natural law") from being raised in the Christian faith and practicing it my whole life aside from a small period of apostasy in my early 20s.  

When you get married (or enter into a long term cohabitating relationship that, for all intents and purposes outside the law, is marriage and if you don't think it is (legal standing aside), you're fooling yourself: get your head out of your anal cavity), your body is no longer your own.  It belongs to your partner/spouse.  Taking matters into your own hands, even if you're thinking about that other person, is an incredibly selfish act, one that mars the relationship by saying, in effect, "I don't need you.  I don't want you.  I'm not giving myself to you anymore, I'm just taking."  

As Christians, we are not. supposed. to. do. that.  Your spouse is you.  You no longer live for yourself.  This is why monks often say that living as a married person in the world is more difficult than living as a hermetic monastic.  It's easy to be responsible for oneself; it's incredibly hard to be responsible for another, to the point of dying for the other person, if need be.  By wanking, you are, in effect, living for yourself and not for the other.  THAT is why it is sinful.  NO Christian worth his salt should be living for himself but ready to lay down the life for his friends.  All this yapping about conditions and Onanism and the like misses the point.  Indeed, some of us who are most critical of Thomism sound like doctors of scholasticism; the reasons given in this thread as to when and why masturbation is alright and even laudable would make the head spin of the most Talmudic of rabbis.  When you masturbate, no matter who you are thinking of, you are no longer living for the other and no longer doing God's will, but your own.  We are to constantly strive to do God's will and live for someone else.

But, at the same time, in the great scheme of things, it's no big deal.  It's a sin.  Accept it as such, confess it when you do it, and get over it.  Don't let it frack your live up, because it will.  That little hormone that's released right at the moment of ejaculation is incredibly addictive.  You know what I'm talking about.  Don't fool yourself.  I said I wasn't going to quote Scripture, but what St. Paul meant about marriage being given to us to soothe the burning is that even that the base animal impetus to massage a sexual organ for pleasure can have a wonderful and truly inspiring and self-emptying consequence when one offers that part of one's life to the partner of a marriage bed.  

Now stop playing with yourself and go to confession. Wink

Whoa.  +1
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« Reply #101 on: May 02, 2012, 04:57:11 PM »

Something I've been wondering for quite a while as well although I have never explicitely asked it, although I have mentioned my excessive habit of it. *sigh* Why does everything that feels good have to be bad or condemned? I know that all of the Fathers and everyone I ask would say that sexual pleasure is not bad if it is in the marriage context, but times have changed. Back when the Fathers and everything said this, it was not as heavy a burden to wait until marriage because you could get married at like age 14, but now most people do not even get married until their twenties. So clearly we have a much heavier burden on us in present times in terms of abstinence than the Fathers anticipated when they spoke of this. If I have to wait so long until I can really have sex, then I see no reason why I should not be allowed to masturbate to pass the time. If I am really expected to give all of this up for such a long time, then there is no hope for me because I can't and I do not even know if I am willing to. Masturbation is the one pleasure that makes everything to me feel better. And now I have to give it up? Sad

"Everything that feels good has to be bad or condemned" because there are many who make themselves feel more righteous than they are by setting up false systems of rules and creating "sins" where there are none.  In 1 Timothy 4 the Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.  Those teachings come from a very similar mindset as the Pharisees teachings.  They forbid pleasures that God created.  They often call them "sin," and they often highlight their abusive and addictive potential.   They do this with sexual things, plants and drinks, and all sorts of things.  The Southern Baptists have been particularly bad, as have the Mormons, but these evil spirits infect orthodoxy too.

But the truth is that "everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer." 

If masturbation is causing trouble in your heart and life, then stop it.  If it isn't, then there is no reason to stop as far as the holy Scriptures or the holy Fathers.  That's what I say.
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« Reply #102 on: May 02, 2012, 04:59:37 PM »

Still missing the point, but whatever.  Do what you want.  I have my own sins (being a wanker included) to worry about. 

I can't speak to your experiences, nor would I say you are wrong in what you've said. And I think how God views things might be a separate issue from what I'm about to say. However, in the marriage I was in masturbation was not simply all about self-gratification. It was something we both wished the other person to do. When I masturbated I wasn't trying to tell her that she wasn't needed. She was usually the one sitting there encouraging me (and vice versa). Is that a perversion? Perhaps... but in any event, my point is only that it doesn't have to be some selfish, relationship-destroying act, if the people involved are of a certain mentality.
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« Reply #103 on: May 02, 2012, 05:08:16 PM »

True, the word used in the Gospel can mean both wife or any woman generally. You argue for wife based on the word adultery being part of the context, but I think there is another type of context to consider: the cultural context. At that time girls would have had their marriages planned (and taken place) by the early teens. Thus if you were looking at an attractive girl who wasn't someone's wife or fiancee you were probably looking at a kid. In that case, you had bigger issues to deal with than ordinary old lust. But the larger question I would have is, how did Christians throughout the centuries interpret the passage? Based on what I've read, they seemed to speak against lust generally, and didn't give allowances in the rare occasions that someone a bit older was unmarried. To complement this, they said the same thing about young teenaged boys. True, some had exaggerated (=distorted) ideas about this, but I'm not sure I've come across a Father yet who says lust is ok. St. John Chrysostom and perhaps others say that natural attraction is ok, but then lust is a distortion of natural attraction.

I disagree.  I don't think all girls would have been married by their early teens.  I don't know who told you that, but there were certainly women that were not taken.  And Christ did not ever teach us that it is always a sin to look at or even to intensely desire such women.  Read the Song of Solomon.  The couple intensely desired ("lusted") for one another before and after the wedding.  Intense desire seems to be what often forms holy marriage.  And therefore, those who forbid it fall under the condemnation of 1 Timothy chapter 4 ("hindering marriage") in my opinion.

Indeed, when the Savior met St. Photina (the Samaritan woman at the well) and called her to Himself, she was a woman who was not married.  So they were out there, walking around.  She happened to be living with a man, but of course Christ did not condemn her for it.  He did not deal with her as he dealt with the adulteress who he he told to "go and sin no more."  He had no such condemnation for St. Photina even though she was living with ("lusting for") an unmarried man and he for her.  Lust outside of the the context of adultery is not always sinful. 

Certainly anything can become destructive and sinful, even seemingly harmless foods.  But I don't think that most Christians speak against "lust" ("intense desire") generally in history.  As I've already shown in Christian Scripture above, there is good lust and bad lust.  Lust is simply intense desire; the ethics of lust depend entirely on the context.  Christians speak against certain lusts in certain contexts throughout history, but it is a very un-Christian thing to simply say "lust" is a sin.  Many say it, but that doesn't make it true or right.  To say "lust is sin" and leave it at that would be to call Christ himself a sinner since Scripture says He lusted for things.

There is good lust and bad lust.
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« Reply #104 on: May 02, 2012, 05:38:38 PM »

...In fact, such lusts are sung about joyfully in the Song of Solomon.

... In fact, such lusts are sung about joyfully in the Song of Solomon...

Read the Song of Solomon.


You keep saying that, but

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« Reply #105 on: May 02, 2012, 05:56:39 PM »

Either way, I know that the way I have been masturbating is sinful. I could definitely cut down from it and stop letting it affect me in other areas of my life, like not being able to sleep unless I do it or dreading sharing a room with anyone because that means I cannot do it.
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« Reply #106 on: May 02, 2012, 06:01:55 PM »

I guess the danger these days is that someone who does stuff to themselves could get into things like porn addiction, and if they have a partner, may start to prefer solitary activity to things with their partner. Temptation is as old as humanity, and yes it's tough to resist, but I think it's dangerous to presume upon the Lord's forgiveness by saying, "It doesn't matter. So I'll throw caution to the wind."

One of the ways Confession helps people, is to refresh their intake of God's grace, so they can resist persistent temptations. We shouldn't look at is as a punishment, but as one of the ways God heals us.
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« Reply #107 on: May 02, 2012, 06:06:36 PM »

I must admit that this thread is one of the most interesting threads I've seen in a while.

Either way, I know that the way I have been masturbating is sinful. I could definitely cut down from it and stop letting it affect me in other areas of my life, like not being able to sleep unless I do it or dreading sharing a room with anyone because that means I cannot do it.
Trust me, man, you aren't alone. There are many out there struggling like you are.
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« Reply #108 on: May 02, 2012, 06:23:14 PM »

Either way, I know that the way I have been masturbating is sinful. I could definitely cut down from it and stop letting it affect me in other areas of my life, like not being able to sleep unless I do it or dreading sharing a room with anyone because that means I cannot do it.

Then, for what its worth, my advice would be to find the roots of the masturbation and cut that down.  Then the "masturbation problems" will mostly take care of themselves, I think.  So, for instance, men should not walk around staring intently at particularly appealing parts of women all day, or take many breaks at work to look up revealing pictures on the internet, and then wonder why it is difficult to sleep that night without the release that masturbation provides.  I'm not saying this is your problem, but it is certainly a problem for many of us men.

Learning how to control ourselves sexually is not simply a matter of having the discipline to keep our hand out of our pants.  It is a matter of learning how our body works, learning what the roots of our desires are, and avoiding the thoughts, glances, and areas that cause us temptation.
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« Reply #109 on: May 02, 2012, 06:25:55 PM »

Still missing the point, but whatever.  Do what you want.  I have my own sins (being a wanker included) to worry about. 

I can't speak to your experiences, nor would I say you are wrong in what you've said. And I think how God views things might be a separate issue from what I'm about to say. However, in the marriage I was in masturbation was not simply all about self-gratification. It was something we both wished the other person to do. When I masturbated I wasn't trying to tell her that she wasn't needed. She was usually the one sitting there encouraging me (and vice versa). Is that a perversion? Perhaps... but in any event, my point is only that it doesn't have to be some selfish, relationship-destroying act, if the people involved are of a certain mentality.
I was thinking about what bothers me about Mark Driscoll's approach this matters (sex in general, not just masturbation, mutual or otherwise).  It struck me that he is the other side of the "one size fits all" coin with the "natural law" types etc.  Pastoring the intimacies of couples on a person on person basis is one thing.  Broadcasting to a mass audience is quite another.

I was looking at the site where I got this
Just stumbled on this, on "form":
Quote
“This is a debate about ends and means which is in fact a loser for the contraception-user.”
Not if certain cardinals have their way regarding HIV, according to rumors. Might this be changing?
re “form”: Why and how is form all of a sudden so important with regards to marital love? because marital love is so important and so great? aren’t lots of things important and great and transcendent, like, say, breastfeeding? is formula feeding deforming of the act of maternal love? and if you don’t konw the answer, isn’t it curious that church fathers (note no caps! no caps!) haven’t hashed out this particular question while they have hashed out others?
http://blog.beliefnet.com/viamedia/2006/04/contraception-debate.html
where the discussion revolved a lot about the Terodes and their advocacy, then abandonment, of the HV/natural law ideas of "NFP" and their subsequent fall into liberal Protestantism.   The "NFP" brigade were rather strident in their insistence on their diagnosis of the Terodes:"they didn't really commit to NFP" blah blah blah, completely ignoring the Terodes very frank admissions about their change.  They weren't a couple to the "NFP" crowd, just a philosophical construct, who didn't fit the party line anymore.  Perry Robinson (I wish he'd come here.  To the board, not this thread in particular), as usual, made a profound statement about the pitfalls of dealing with "essences and natures" rather than "persons."

Fr. George's post was good especially that "this answer must be comprehensive, covering the various physical (addiction), social (withdrawl, disordered view of relationships, etc.), and spiritual ailments it (and its usual compatriot, pornography) can lead to."  However some are never addicted though they do it (the studies show it being extremely common, but yet the majority of the population manage to do something else), some do it with no disordered view of relationships or withdrawl (studies show that it a third or more common among the divorced or widowed, where the relationship is nonexistent), and it does not necessarily require pornography as its compatriot (when I went to the lab to give a sample, I had no need of visual aids.  Btw, I think a lot a wrangling that goes on how to comduct fertility testing/treatments within the parameters of HV exposes HV for the nonsense it is).  One reason why the category of "mortal" sins in general and the characterization of this as a "mortal sin" in particular is baseless.

Lust is a sin.  If masturbation includes lust, then it is as well.  Denying your spouse is a sin.  If masturbation induces you to choose yourself over your spouse, it is a sin.  If makes you miss your prayers, it is a sin.  If it makes you neglect/lose your job, it is a sin.  If it leads you to shun normal relationships in a marriage, it is a sin.  The list can go on.  What it doesn't include is "a waste of seed."

Basically, on its own (and just sticking with auto-eroticism, leaving out mutual masturbation), I see it like smoking.  If you are doing it with someone not your spouse, most of us here except for Acts420 have our act together on fornication's definition.  If you are doing it with someone not your spouse, and you are married, or they are, adultery is also simply defined without having to get into the nitty gritty of the status of masturbation.
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« Reply #110 on: May 02, 2012, 06:29:09 PM »

I do not know about the rest of you, but if I ever get married and have children one day, I really hope that I do not have a boy so that I do not have to ever walk in on him masturbating or anything, or have to lecture him about porn and stuff. I know that my mother once walked in on me masturbating and it was one of the most embarassing moments of my life.
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You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
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« Reply #111 on: May 02, 2012, 06:33:36 PM »

I do not know about the rest of you, but if I ever get married and have children one day, I really hope that I do not have a boy so that I do not have to ever walk in on him masturbating or anything, or have to lecture him about porn and stuff. I know that my mother once walked in on me masturbating and it was one of the most embarassing moments of my life.
Heh, yes it is.

Quite frankly, my parents, who are generally pretty traditional in their attitudes towards sexual matters told me that as long as I did it in my room and not elsewhere in the house, they didn't care. Though I must admit that sort of attitude probably exacerbated the struggle.
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« Reply #112 on: May 02, 2012, 06:34:39 PM »


Lust is a sin.  If masturbation includes lust, then it is as well.  Denying your spouse is a sin.  If masturbation induces you to choose yourself over your spouse, it is a sin.  If makes you miss your prayers, it is a sin.  If it makes you neglect/lose your job, it is a sin.  If it leads you to shun normal relationships in a marriage, it is a sin.  The list can go on.  What it doesn't include is "a waste of seed."

Basically, on its own (and just sticking with auto-eroticism, leaving out mutual masturbation), I see it like smoking.  If you are doing it with someone not your spouse, most of us here except for Acts420 have our act together on fornication's definition.  If you are doing it with someone not your spouse, and you are married, or they are, adultery is also simply defined without having to get into the nitty gritty of the status of masturbation.

Just for clarification, what do you mean by that?
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« Reply #113 on: May 02, 2012, 06:41:04 PM »

I do not know about the rest of you, but if I ever get married and have children one day, I really hope that I do not have a boy so that I do not have to ever walk in on him masturbating or anything, or have to lecture him about porn and stuff. I know that my mother once walked in on me masturbating and it was one of the most embarassing moments of my life.

I look forward to perhaps having a boy and teaching him about sexuality.  It would be nice to actually give a kid a chance.  So many parents ignore passing sexual wisdom along for whatever reason, often probably because they have none.  Often the "sex talk" from parents, even Christian parents, is simply, "Don't do it until marriage."  They often don't even define "it."  "Sex" can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people.  These parents pass on virtually no wisdom as to how to deal with these incredibly powerful desires God created most of us with, and the "wisdom" they do pass on isn't even from Scripture or the early Fathers!  And then they wonder why so many kids are completely screwing up sexually.  They don't even give their children a snowballs chance in hell.

Haha... that's gotta be rough, having your mom walk in on you.  I had a friend who's mom found a porn picture he had under his bed.  He was eating dinner that night, totally unaware, when he looked on the refrigerator and saw his picture pinned there.  He spit out his food and turned beat red.  I can't remember which, but he either said he never brought porn in their house again or perhaps never even looked at it again!
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« Reply #114 on: May 02, 2012, 06:47:45 PM »


Lust is a sin.  If masturbation includes lust, then it is as well.  Denying your spouse is a sin.  If masturbation induces you to choose yourself over your spouse, it is a sin.  If makes you miss your prayers, it is a sin.  If it makes you neglect/lose your job, it is a sin.  If it leads you to shun normal relationships in a marriage, it is a sin.  The list can go on.  What it doesn't include is "a waste of seed."

Basically, on its own (and just sticking with auto-eroticism, leaving out mutual masturbation), I see it like smoking.  If you are doing it with someone not your spouse, most of us here except for Acts420 have our act together on fornication's definition.  If you are doing it with someone not your spouse, and you are married, or they are, adultery is also simply defined without having to get into the nitty gritty of the status of masturbation.

Just for clarification, what do you mean by that?

Replace lust with harming yourself....

Harming yourself is a sin.  If smoking includes harming yourself, then smoking is a sin.  If you have go without food because of buying cigarettes, that is a sin, etc.
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« Reply #115 on: May 02, 2012, 06:53:22 PM »

True, the word used in the Gospel can mean both wife or any woman generally. You argue for wife based on the word adultery being part of the context, but I think there is another type of context to consider: the cultural context. At that time girls would have had their marriages planned (and taken place) by the early teens. Thus if you were looking at an attractive girl who wasn't someone's wife or fiancee you were probably looking at a kid. In that case, you had bigger issues to deal with than ordinary old lust. But the larger question I would have is, how did Christians throughout the centuries interpret the passage? Based on what I've read, they seemed to speak against lust generally, and didn't give allowances in the rare occasions that someone a bit older was unmarried. To complement this, they said the same thing about young teenaged boys. True, some had exaggerated (=distorted) ideas about this, but I'm not sure I've come across a Father yet who says lust is ok. St. John Chrysostom and perhaps others say that natural attraction is ok, but then lust is a distortion of natural attraction.

I disagree.
Shocker.
I don't think all girls would have been married by their early teens.  I don't know who told you that, but there were certainly women that were not taken.
 
Hence the term "old maid."  Some died before their early teens.  Many died before they reached thirty.  If they wanted children-and nearly all did-early teens was when to strike the iron while it was hot.

Btw, their is plenty of evidence that yes, marrying in their early teens was nearly the universal norm.

And Christ did not ever teach us that it is always a sin to look at or even to intensely desire such women.
Yes, He did.  Read the Sermon on the Mount.

Read the Song of Solomon.
I have. Christ has.  Have you.

The couple intensely desired ("lusted")
Your word.  Not the Lord's.  Not the Church's. Not Solomon's.

for one another before and after the wedding.  Intense desire seems to be what often forms holy marriage.
and lust destroys it.
And therefore, those who forbid it fall under the condemnation of 1 Timothy chapter 4 ("hindering marriage") in my opinion.
and in the Church's (and the Lord's) opinion you fall under the condemnation of II Peter chapter 3 ("twist to their own destruction")
Quote
15 And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

Indeed, when the Savior met St. Photina (the Samaritan woman at the well) and called her to Himself, she was a woman who was not married.  So they were out there, walking around.  She happened to be living with a man, but of course Christ did not condemn her for it.
LOL. Boy, talk about a pretzel.

Christ asked her specifically about her husband to point out that she wasn't really married, though she had been "married" many times, including to the one she was living with.

He did not deal with her as he dealt with the adulteress who he he told to "go and sin no more."  He had no such condemnation for St. Photina even though she was living with ("lusting for") an unmarried man and he for her.
reading a lot in there.  That's called eisogesis, btw.  Reading the Bible is suposed to go the other way: exogesis.

You get the name "St. Photina" from Tradition.  What does it say about her marital situation?

Lust outside of the the context of adultery is not always sinful.
Inside marriage/outside marriage, lust is always sinful.

Certainly anything can become destructive and sinful, even seemingly harmless foods.  But I don't think that most Christians speak against "lust" ("intense desire") generally in history.

then you haven't a clue about history.

As I've already shown in Christian Scripture above, there is good lust and bad lust.
You have shown no such thing.  you have just yelled into an echo chamber and thought you heard something.

Lust is bad. Evil. Period.

Lust is simply intense desire
you go with the Devil's Dictionary. I'll stick with Webster's.

the ethics of lust depend entirely on the context.

That they do, as to how evil the lust is.  Not on it being good.

Christians speak against certain lusts in certain contexts throughout history, but it is a very un-Christian thing to simply say "lust" is a sin.
when you are catachised, it is "kata" according to "echo" the echo.  It is supposed to be the echo of the Fathers through the Church.  Not you talking to yourself.

Many say it, but that doesn't make it true or right.
that many say it in the whole consensus of Tradition makes it true and right.

One voice spouting idiocies doesn't make it true or right.

To say "lust is sin" and leave it at that would be to call Christ himself a sinner since Scripture says He lusted for things.
Book?  Chapter? Verse?

There is good lust and bad lust.
Just evil lust.
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« Reply #116 on: May 02, 2012, 06:55:45 PM »

I do not know about the rest of you, but if I ever get married and have children one day, I really hope that I do not have a boy so that I do not have to ever walk in on him masturbating or anything, or have to lecture him about porn and stuff. I know that my mother once walked in on me masturbating and it was one of the most embarassing moments of my life.

I look forward to perhaps having a boy and teaching him about sexuality.  It would be nice to actually give a kid a chance.  So many parents ignore passing sexual wisdom along for whatever reason, often probably because they have none.  Often the "sex talk" from parents, even Christian parents, is simply, "Don't do it until marriage."  They often don't even define "it."  "Sex" can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people.  These parents pass on virtually no wisdom as to how to deal with these incredibly powerful desires God created most of us with, and the "wisdom" they do pass on isn't even from Scripture or the early Fathers!  And then they wonder why so many kids are completely screwing up sexually.  They don't even give their children a snowballs chance in hell.

Haha... that's gotta be rough, having your mom walk in on you.  I had a friend who's mom found a porn picture he had under his bed.  He was eating dinner that night, totally unaware, when he looked on the refrigerator and saw his picture pinned there.  He spit out his food and turned beat red.  I can't remember which, but he either said he never brought porn in their house again or perhaps never even looked at it again!
So, a mother raising her son right.
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« Reply #117 on: May 02, 2012, 07:07:28 PM »


Lust is a sin.  If masturbation includes lust, then it is as well.  Denying your spouse is a sin.  If masturbation induces you to choose yourself over your spouse, it is a sin.  If makes you miss your prayers, it is a sin.  If it makes you neglect/lose your job, it is a sin.  If it leads you to shun normal relationships in a marriage, it is a sin.  The list can go on.  What it doesn't include is "a waste of seed."

Basically, on its own (and just sticking with auto-eroticism, leaving out mutual masturbation), I see it like smoking.  If you are doing it with someone not your spouse, most of us here except for Acts420 have our act together on fornication's definition.  If you are doing it with someone not your spouse, and you are married, or they are, adultery is also simply defined without having to get into the nitty gritty of the status of masturbation.

Just for clarification, what do you mean by that?

Replace lust with harming yourself....

Harming yourself is a sin.  If smoking includes harming yourself, then smoking is a sin.  If you have go without food because of buying cigarettes, that is a sin, etc.
Basically, yeah.  Except that smoking is not banned/forbidden, nor always deadly.  I used to smoke socially.  Probably still would, but most of the smokers I know have died off.  Doing coke was a different matter (even if it were only once, still bad, always deadly, etc.).

Would you be better off not to smoke.  Sure, most would. 

Perhaps to further clarify, I ought to repeat that take, for instance, a wife manually bringing her husband to orgasm. Just on that basis, some would hold one of them or both of them as guilty of mortal sin.  Some would say venial sin. Some would just say sin.  Just on that basis, I would say no sin at all.

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« Reply #118 on: May 02, 2012, 07:11:13 PM »

I do not know about the rest of you, but if I ever get married and have children one day, I really hope that I do not have a boy so that I do not have to ever walk in on him masturbating or anything, or have to lecture him about porn and stuff. I know that my mother once walked in on me masturbating and it was one of the most embarassing moments of my life.
Would you feel better walking in on your daughter?

If you have a daughter, you are still her father.  You had better talk to her about porn and stuff.  If you don't, she will find another man to teach her.
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« Reply #119 on: May 02, 2012, 07:31:48 PM »

And Christ did not ever teach us that it is always a sin to look at or even to intensely desire such women.
Yes, He did.  Read the Sermon on the Mount.

I have.  He didn't.  He said looking at a wife with lust is adultery.  Seriously.  Read it for yourself.

Read the Song of Solomon.
I have. Christ has.  Have you.

Yes, I have read the Song many times.

The couple intensely desired ("lusted")
Your word.  Not the Lord's.  Not the Church's. Not Solomon's.

My observation.  Read the book and anyone can see much of it is about their intense desires for one another.  "Lust" is an English word meaning "intense desire."  Again, there is nothing inherently wrong with lust.  Even Christ is said to have "lusted" for things in Scripture, and Paul, in passages I've already cited in this thread.

for one another before and after the wedding.  Intense desire seems to be what often forms holy marriage.
and lust destroys it.

Intense desire, aka "lust," is a wonderful part of holy marriage.  It can also destroy holy marriage.  It depends on where and how the couple channels their intense desires.  You're over simplifying things at the expense of holy marriage.

Indeed, when the Savior met St. Photina (the Samaritan woman at the well) and called her to Himself, she was a woman who was not married.  So they were out there, walking around.  She happened to be living with a man, but of course Christ did not condemn her for it.
LOL. Boy, talk about a pretzel.

Christ asked her specifically about her husband to point out that she wasn't really married, though she had been "married" many times, including to the one she was living with.

She had never been "married."  You don't know why Christ pointed that out.  He didn't say her living situation was sinful; he didn't tell her to stop.  He told the adulteress to stop sinning.  This is further support for my understanding that Christ simply said lusting for another's wife is sinful (adultery).  Christ never said lust, "intense desire," is sinful in and of itself.

He did not deal with her as he dealt with the adulteress who he he told to "go and sin no more."  He had no such condemnation for St. Photina even though she was living with ("lusting for") an unmarried man and he for her.
reading a lot in there.  That's called eisogesis, btw.  Reading the Bible is suposed to go the other way: exogesis.
You get the name "St. Photina" from Tradition.  What does it say about her marital situation?

Like Christ, holy Tradition doesn't say much about St. Photina's specific choice of living situation.  If you think otherwise, why don't you tell me what Tradition says about her choice (cite your sources please).

Lust outside of the the context of adultery is not always sinful.
Inside marriage/outside marriage, lust is always sinful.

If you believe lust is always sinful then you believe Christ sinned.  For even Christ said, "With lust (epithymia) I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer.'"  (Luke 22:16)  Likewise, the Holy Apostle said, "But, brothers and sisters, when we were orphaned by being separated from you for a short time, out of our lust (epithymia) we made every effort to see you."  (1 Thessalonians 2:17)   See also 1 Timothy 6:9, "Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful lusts (epithymia) that plunge people into ruin and destruction."  There are harmful lusts on one hand while, on the other hand, there are holy and honorable lusts.  The good contexts or bad contexts are what make the intense desires good or bad.  "Lust" is simply one English word meaning "intense desire" or, in the Greek, "epithymia."  Christ did it.  It is not sinful in and of itself.

Lust is simply intense desire
you go with the Devil's Dictionary. I'll stick with Webster's.


Devil's Dictionary?  Is that what you're calling Holy Scripture nowadays?  If so, then I'll gladly go with what you call "the Devil's Dictionary."  I call it by a different name though.

To say "lust is sin" and leave it at that would be to call Christ himself a sinner since Scripture says He lusted for things.
Book?  Chapter? Verse?

Already provided above.  Lust is simply intense desire, and it is not evil.  Even sexually charged lusts are not evil in the right contexts.  For instance, see the Song of Solomon.
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« Reply #120 on: May 02, 2012, 07:32:19 PM »

I do not know about the rest of you, but if I ever get married and have children one day, I really hope that I do not have a boy so that I do not have to ever walk in on him masturbating or anything, or have to lecture him about porn and stuff. I know that my mother once walked in on me masturbating and it was one of the most embarassing moments of my life.
Would you feel better walking in on your daughter?

If you have a daughter, you are still her father.  You had better talk to her about porn and stuff.  If you don't, she will find another man to teach her.

Amen.
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« Reply #121 on: May 02, 2012, 07:35:45 PM »

Everybody I've ever read for commentary on the Song of Solomon, says it is a metaphor for the love God has for His people. It is not a literal sex play between individuals.

If you want to see something else in it, you'll see something else.
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« Reply #122 on: May 02, 2012, 10:15:37 PM »

Everybody I've ever read for commentary on the Song of Solomon, says it is a metaphor for the love God has for His people. It is not a literal sex play between individuals.

If you want to see something else in it, you'll see something else.

I believe it is metaphor, but it is not only metaphor.  It is an actual story with real implications for our marriages as well, not just for our ultimate marriage as the bride of Christ.  

Similarly, I believe that marriage itself and the couple's one flesh relationship are symbols of God's love for His people.  "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church."  But just because marriage and the union symbolizes God's love and our relationship to Him, that doesn't mean we should deny the reality of marriages and unions.

Song of Solomon is real too.  It is both a vivid tale of the formation of holy marriage, with implications for our own courtships and marriages, and it is a symbol of God's love for and relationship with the Church, with implications for how we should be relating to God.  
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« Reply #123 on: May 02, 2012, 10:22:31 PM »

I do not know about the rest of you, but if I ever get married and have children one day, I really hope that I do not have a boy so that I do not have to ever walk in on him masturbating or anything, or have to lecture him about porn and stuff.
Boys, girls, it doesn't matter. You have to start talking to them about playing with themselves by the time they're two if not earlier. Boys will fiddle with it for a while, but a little girl will really go at it right in the middle of the room if you don't say something.

From what some friends have told me, teenage girls do it plenty too, though they may not realize that what they're doing counts as masturbation. (I'll avoid discussing particulars for the sensitive among us).

In many ways, the teenage years are a regression to an earlier time.

Boys, for whatever reason, seem to feel more remorse about it.

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I know that my mother once walked in on me masturbating and it was one of the most embarassing moments of my life.
I got nothing.
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« Reply #124 on: May 02, 2012, 10:37:24 PM »

Everybody I've ever read for commentary on the Song of Solomon, says it is a metaphor for the love God has for His people. It is not a literal sex play between individuals.

If you want to see something else in it, you'll see something else.

I believe it is metaphor, but it is not only metaphor.  It is an actual story with real implications for our marriages as well, not just for our ultimate marriage as the bride of Christ.  

Similarly, I believe that marriage itself and the couple's one flesh relationship are symbols of God's love for His people.  "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church."  But just because marriage and the union symbolizes God's love and our relationship to Him, that doesn't mean we should deny the reality of marriages and unions.
Yes "be united to his wife."  Not "the girl sitting on the other side of the bar."
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« Reply #125 on: May 02, 2012, 10:55:18 PM »

Everybody knows its wrong and a sin. 

To the OP,

I'm one with a controversial view on marriage, frankly one that I could care less what people think about it, but rather just strongly feel this way.

Not too long ago, people were married at 14 & 15 years old to others that were also near their ages.   In our society, we would think this is wrong, ugly, gross, too young, etc.   But they didn't have the mindset we had, but rather life was more simple, more about living and family.  They weren't pillaged with messages, propaganda ("I must get an education to succeed!!") and the likes.  Anyway, their maturity level and willingness to work as a family with their betrothed was far beyond what a typical youngster is today.  Understand these people were often raised in small towns and/or villages, where families knew each other etc.

Today perhaps,  youngsters are "intellectually smarter", but not "intellectually more mature".

As for the topic of discussion, these types of desires that God made us with, would be fulfilled in the beauty of matrimony. 
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« Reply #126 on: May 03, 2012, 12:01:44 AM »

Everybody I've ever read for commentary on the Song of Solomon, says it is a metaphor for the love God has for His people. It is not a literal sex play between individuals.

If you want to see something else in it, you'll see something else.

I believe it is metaphor, but it is not only metaphor.  It is an actual story with real implications for our marriages as well, not just for our ultimate marriage as the bride of Christ.  

Similarly, I believe that marriage itself and the couple's one flesh relationship are symbols of God's love for His people.  "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church."  But just because marriage and the union symbolizes God's love and our relationship to Him, that doesn't mean we should deny the reality of marriages and unions.
Yes "be united to his wife."  Not "the girl sitting on the other side of the bar."

Right.  The point is that in the word picture of courtship and marriage God has given us, the couple very obviously expresses intense desire (also known as "lust") for one another before their wedding.  That is fine and holy.  But then again, as you so aptly said, "If you want to see something else in it, you'll see something else."
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« Reply #127 on: May 03, 2012, 12:13:06 AM »

Is masturbation allows for teenagers in the greek orthodox church. If not, why? Is it allowed when you are married.

The "greek orthodox church" has no formally declared teachings regarding masturbation as far as I know.  Grow close to God in your prayer life and in your obedience to Him in the matters that you do know the answer to..  And let Him guide your heart in this matter as you two grow closer.  That's my advice.

Children tend to masturbate even from an extremely young age.  It is a fact of life.  Despite that, Holy Scripture never calls it a sin, and there is not any sort of consensus in the Fathers that regards it as sinful.

There are Christians (and even pastors and priests) out there who try to tell everyone what exactly is a sin and what isn't.  They'll never admit when they don't know something, even though obviously there is an infinite amount of things we don't know.  Sometimes such people forbid masturbation all together, and other times they give specific rules as to when it is ethical and when it isn't.  These people sometimes don't have a clue.  That also is a fact of life.
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« Reply #128 on: May 03, 2012, 12:18:51 AM »

Is masturbation allows for teenagers in the greek orthodox church. If not, why? Is it allowed when you are married.

Many Greek orthodox Christians don't believe it is wrong or a sin.

How can you speak for Greek Orthodox Christians when you are not one?

There are Christians (and even pastors and priests) out there who try to tell everyone what exactly is a sin and what isn't.  Sometimes they forbid masturbation all together, and sometimes they give specific rules as to when it is ethical and when it isn't.  These people sometimes don't have a clue.  That also is a fact of life.

But you are the pre-eminent authority on what Greek Orthodox Christians believe.  Did you have a bad experience with a Greek Orthodox Priest? Church? woman?
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« Reply #129 on: May 03, 2012, 01:17:47 AM »

Is masturbation allows for teenagers in the greek orthodox church. If not, why? Is it allowed when you are married.

Many Greek orthodox Christians don't believe it is wrong or a sin.

How can you speak for Greek Orthodox Christians when you are not one?

I know and have known many Greek orthodox Christians.

There are Christians (and even pastors and priests) out there who try to tell everyone what exactly is a sin and what isn't.  Sometimes they forbid masturbation all together, and sometimes they give specific rules as to when it is ethical and when it isn't.  These people sometimes don't have a clue.  That also is a fact of life.

But you are the pre-eminent authority on what Greek Orthodox Christians believe.  Did you have a bad experience with a Greek Orthodox Priest? Church? woman?

No, I'm not. And no, I did not.  It is just a fact of life that sometimes people don't have a clue about what they're talking about, even those with alleged "authority."  Masturbation is simple by definition, but the motivations and goals behind it can be complex.  People who try to paint the issue as black or white with broad strokes typically don't know what they're talking about, if you ask me.
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« Reply #130 on: May 03, 2012, 01:47:01 AM »

Is masturbation allows for teenagers in the greek orthodox church. If not, why? Is it allowed when you are married.

Many Greek orthodox Christians don't believe it is wrong or a sin.

How can you speak for Greek Orthodox Christians when you are not one?

I know and have known many Greek orthodox Christians.

So you learn about Orthodox Christian Theology by watching My Big Fat Greek Wedding which is a satire on how Greek Orthodox Christians live and believe (e.g. Nia Vardalos makes fun of her ethnic heritage and faith)?

There are Christians (and even pastors and priests) out there who try to tell everyone what exactly is a sin and what isn't.  Sometimes they forbid masturbation all together, and sometimes they give specific rules as to when it is ethical and when it isn't.  These people sometimes don't have a clue.  That also is a fact of life.

But you are the pre-eminent authority on what Greek Orthodox Christians believe.  Did you have a bad experience with a Greek Orthodox Priest? Church? woman?

No, I'm not. And no, I did not.  It is just a fact of life that sometimes people don't have a clue about what they're talking about, even those with alleged "authority."  Masturbation is simple by definition, but the motivations and goals behind it can be complex.  People who try to paint the issue as black or white with broad strokes typically don't know what they're talking about, if you ask me.

I don't know everything.  You don't know everything.  Not even Isa knows everything.  You have seen that sexual lust is a sin and nearly every masturbation act includes sexual lust; otherwise you wouldn't be aroused and wouldn't complete the fantasy with the expected release - which makes masturbation a sin.  Sin is not allowed; however, we are fallen and sin except we are commanded to not judge because we will be judged with the same measure that was used to judge (Matthew 7:1,2 Orthodox Study Bible).

I think what Isa and I gave you are proper Orthodox answers.  You just don't want to see it the Orthodox way.  I used to work with someone like you - he is a big cannabis fan.  I acknowledged what he believed even though I didn't agree with him.  I don't agree with you and I will acknowledge your stubbornness towards what has been said to you.   Smiley
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« Reply #131 on: May 03, 2012, 01:54:03 AM »

I do not know about the rest of you, but if I ever get married and have children one day, I really hope that I do not have a boy so that I do not have to ever walk in on him masturbating or anything, or have to lecture him about porn and stuff. I know that my mother once walked in on me masturbating and it was one of the most embarassing moments of my life.
Would you feel better walking in on your daughter?

If you have a daughter, you are still her father.  You had better talk to her about porn and stuff.  If you don't, she will find another man to teach her.

Well wouldn't her mother do that if we had a daughter? I'm not a parent, but I had always assumed that usually the father handles the sons' sexual debauchery while the mother takes care of the daughter. Have you had to have these talks, lectures and lessons with your children yet?
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« Reply #132 on: May 03, 2012, 02:08:54 AM »

I do not know about the rest of you, but if I ever get married and have children one day, I really hope that I do not have a boy so that I do not have to ever walk in on him masturbating or anything, or have to lecture him about porn and stuff. I know that my mother once walked in on me masturbating and it was one of the most embarassing moments of my life.
Would you feel better walking in on your daughter?

If you have a daughter, you are still her father.  You had better talk to her about porn and stuff.  If you don't, she will find another man to teach her.

Well wouldn't her mother do that if we had a daughter? I'm not a parent, but I had always assumed that usually the father handles the sons' sexual debauchery while the mother takes care of the daughter. Have you had to have these talks, lectures and lessons with your children yet?
We talked about contraception, due to a reference to a comment made in the homily about the response to Obamacare's mandate, a couple days ago.  Does that count?  It's not the first time we have talked about such things.  We have been talking about them I think since they were 4 or so. You can't wait: if you don't talk to them when the topic come up, they will talk to someone else, and you'll have no control over who that someone will be and what they will say. Can't recall what and if we have discussed about masturbation, though. Btw they are 14 and 13.

Her mother is not her father. They are not interchangeable (one of the problems with homosexuality).  Studies show the absence of the father is the single most determinate factor for a whole host of problems, oddly enough problems that are not effected by the mothers presence or absence.
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« Reply #133 on: May 03, 2012, 02:10:14 AM »

Is masturbation allows for teenagers in the greek orthodox church. If not, why? Is it allowed when you are married.

Many Greek orthodox Christians don't believe it is wrong or a sin.

How can you speak for Greek Orthodox Christians when you are not one?

I know and have known many Greek orthodox Christians.

So you learn about Orthodox Christian Theology by watching My Big Fat Greek Wedding which is a satire on how Greek Orthodox Christians live and believe (e.g. Nia Vardalos makes fun of her ethnic heritage and faith)?

No.  I know and have known many Greek orthodox Christians.

There are Christians (and even pastors and priests) out there who try to tell everyone what exactly is a sin and what isn't.  Sometimes they forbid masturbation all together, and sometimes they give specific rules as to when it is ethical and when it isn't.  These people sometimes don't have a clue.  That also is a fact of life.

But you are the pre-eminent authority on what Greek Orthodox Christians believe.  Did you have a bad experience with a Greek Orthodox Priest? Church? woman?

No, I'm not. And no, I did not.  It is just a fact of life that sometimes people don't have a clue about what they're talking about, even those with alleged "authority."  Masturbation is simple by definition, but the motivations and goals behind it can be complex.  People who try to paint the issue as black or white with broad strokes typically don't know what they're talking about, if you ask me.

I don't know everything.  You don't know everything.  Not even Isa knows everything.  You have seen that sexual lust is a sin and nearly every masturbation act includes sexual lust; otherwise you wouldn't be aroused and wouldn't complete the fantasy with the expected release - which makes masturbation a sin.  Sin is not allowed; however, we are fallen and sin except we are commanded to not judge because we will be judged with the same measure that was used to judge (Matthew 7:1,2 Orthodox Study Bible).

I think what Isa and I gave you are proper Orthodox answers.  You just don't want to see it the Orthodox way.  I used to work with someone like you - he is a big cannabis fan.  I acknowledged what he believed even though I didn't agree with him.  I don't agree with you and I will acknowledge your stubbornness towards what has been said to you.   Smiley

What a nice thing to say.  I'm glad we can acknowledge one another's stubbornness in peace.  I've known people like you also, people who add to the Scriptures.  Sexual lust is not a a sin per se.  All "sexual lust" means is "intense sexual desire."  There is is nothing wrong with our intense sexual desires when placed in the right context.  

For instance, married people intensely desire one another and it isn't sinful.  Those who are pursuing marriage intensely desire one another also (typically), and it also isn't typically sinful (it is celebrated in Song in Scripture).  Ultimately sin is revealed to each heart.   If you think masturbation is a sin, then it may indeed be a sin for you.  But you are not the judge of everyone else, and neither am I.
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« Reply #134 on: May 03, 2012, 01:56:31 PM »

What a nice thing to say.  I'm glad we can acknowledge one another's stubbornness in peace.  I've known people like you also, people who add to the Scriptures.

I'm not adding to the Scriptures.

Sexual lust is not a a sin per se.  All "sexual lust" means is "intense sexual desire."  There is is nothing wrong with our intense sexual desires when placed in the right context.

In a monogamous marriage, yes.  In marriage and hooking up with old flames on Facebook, no.
  
For instance, married people intensely desire one another and it isn't sinful.  Those who are pursuing marriage intensely desire one another also (typically), and it also isn't typically sinful (it is celebrated in Song in Scripture).  Ultimately sin is revealed to each heart.   If you think masturbation is a sin, then it may indeed be a sin for you.  But you are not the judge of everyone else, and neither am I.

Where is the bolded text quoted in your Scriptures?   Huh

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« Reply #135 on: May 03, 2012, 01:59:46 PM »

Is masturbation allows for teenagers in the greek orthodox church. If not, why? Is it allowed when you are married.

Many Greek orthodox Christians don't believe it is wrong or a sin.

How can you speak for Greek Orthodox Christians when you are not one?

I know and have known many Greek orthodox Christians.

So you learn about Orthodox Christian Theology by watching My Big Fat Greek Wedding which is a satire on how Greek Orthodox Christians live and believe (e.g. Nia Vardalos makes fun of her ethnic heritage and faith)?

No.  I know and have known many Greek orthodox Christians.

Have they discussed masturbation with you?  That is a taboo subject in nearly every Greek Orthodox household; however, the topic of being taboo doesn't stop those from acting out on sexual fantasies via masturbation.  There are other taboo subjects; as I said, that doesn't stop people from practicing them.
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« Reply #136 on: May 03, 2012, 05:48:21 PM »

What a nice thing to say.  I'm glad we can acknowledge one another's stubbornness in peace.  I've known people like you also, people who add to the Scriptures.

I'm not adding to the Scriptures.

Yes, you are.  You said sexual lust is a sin.  Lust means "intense desire."  The Scripture never says that intense sexual desires are sinful.  Such desires are *sometimes* sinful (in sinful contexts) and sometimes holy (in holy contexts).  For instance, marriage involved intense sexual desires.  See Song of Solomon, both before and after the wedding.

See also common sense.  God have mercy.

Sexual lust is not a a sin per se.  All "sexual lust" means is "intense sexual desire."  There is is nothing wrong with our intense sexual desires when placed in the right context.

In a monogamous marriage, yes.  In marriage and hooking up with old flames on Facebook, no.

Scripture never says that sexual lust is only okay in marriage.  And in fact, Scripture joyously celebrates in beautiful song as two people of the opposite sex intensly long for one another in the Song of Solomon even before their wedding.

For instance, married people intensely desire one another and it isn't sinful.  Those who are pursuing marriage intensely desire one another also (typically), and it also isn't typically sinful (it is celebrated in Song in Scripture).  Ultimately sin is revealed to each heart.   If you think masturbation is a sin, then it may indeed be a sin for you.  But you are not the judge of everyone else, and neither am I.

Where is the bolded text quoted in your Scriptures?   Huh

You mean the Church's Scriptures, right? 

Either way... that teaching is found in Romans 2.  "For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.  They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."
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« Reply #137 on: May 03, 2012, 05:58:21 PM »

What a nice thing to say.  I'm glad we can acknowledge one another's stubbornness in peace.  I've known people like you also, people who add to the Scriptures.

I'm not adding to the Scriptures.

Yes, you are.  You said sexual lust is a sin.  Lust means "intense desire."  The Scripture never says that intense sexual desires are sinful.

Where is the word, covet, in the above analysis?  If I covet Kim Kardashian and I masturbate 20 times a day (hypothetical only  Roll Eyes) focused on Kim Kardashian, I would be sinning because I covet and because I harm myself while engaged in sexual lust.

What about the married man who covets his former high school classmates on Facebook, meets one of them at a hotel bar and has sex with her?

I'm not the only one who said that sexual lust outside of marriage - gee, I really have to keep adding that disclaimer - is a sin.  I'm the only one debating you in this thread.

Such desires are *sometimes* sinful (in sinful contexts) and sometimes holy (in holy contexts).  For instance, marriage involved intense sexual desires.  See Song of Solomon, both before and after the wedding.

Find the term, covet, in the Song of Solomon.

You mean the Church's Scriptures, right?

I mean what translations of Scripture are you using.  I told you what I use; at least have the courtesy to share your sources so I can verify them myself.


Either way... that teaching is found in Romans 2.  "For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.  They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."

Need verses.
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« Reply #138 on: May 03, 2012, 06:22:07 PM »

What a nice thing to say.  I'm glad we can acknowledge one another's stubbornness in peace.  I've known people like you also, people who add to the Scriptures.

I'm not adding to the Scriptures.

Yes, you are.  You said sexual lust is a sin.  Lust means "intense desire."  The Scripture never says that intense sexual desires are sinful.

Where is the word, covet, in the above analysis?  If I covet Kim Kardashian and I masturbate 20 times a day (hypothetical only  Roll Eyes) focused on Kim Kardashian, I would be sinning because I covet and because I harm myself while engaged in sexual lust.

I'm not your judge.  As far as I'm concerned, there is nothing inherently wrong with lusting for Ms. Kardashian unless she is married to someone else (or if I am).  The couple in Song of Solomon lusts for one another before their wedding; lust is part of what brought about the formation of their holy marriage.  If all you do all day is masturbate to Ms. K, then you have a problem.  Similarly drinking alcohol is not a sin, but if that's all you do then you have taken what is good and made it sinful.  The sin is in the excess in that case.  

But that doesn't mean I should necessarily lust after her.  As far as I'm concerned, it would be a waste of time and energy unless I want to marry her.  But again, I'm not your judge.  Do what you feel is right in your heart.  If the Spirit convicts you in your conscience that it is wrong, then by all means avoid it.  If not, then feel free.  Scripture does not say sexual lust is a sin in and of itself.  That's all. 

Some people are convicted to be celibate.  Others aren't.  Different people have different convictions, and that is fine.  I'm not God.  Ask God your questions.

What about the married man who covets his former high school classmates on Facebook, meets one of them at a hotel bar and has sex with her?

Then he has committed adultery, both when he lusted for the woman other than his wife and when he had sex with her.

I'm not the only one who said that sexual lust outside of marriage - gee, I really have to keep adding that disclaimer - is a sin.  I'm the only one debating you in this thread.

Such desires are *sometimes* sinful (in sinful contexts) and sometimes holy (in holy contexts).  For instance, marriage involved intense sexual desires.  See Song of Solomon, both before and after the wedding.

Find the term, covet, in the Song of Solomon.

Why?

You mean the Church's Scriptures, right?

I mean what translations of Scripture are you using.  I told you what I use; at least have the courtesy to share your sources so I can verify them myself.


Either way... that teaching is found in Romans 2.  "For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.  They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."

Need verses.

No you don't.  You should always read the context anyway.  Romans 2.
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« Reply #139 on: May 03, 2012, 06:45:44 PM »

There is nothing wrong with lusting for Ms. Kardashian unless she is married to someone else (or if you are).

You're still using lust; I'm using covet.  If I love my wife, I have no need to covet other women.  Yet, I am fallen and subject to temptation and when my wife finds out that I've succumbed to temptation, I have to suffer consequences for my actions.  If my wife cheats on me, she has to suffer her own consequences and it's up to me whether I forgive her or not.  I would forgive her.

The couple in Song of Solomon lusts for one another before their wedding; lust is part of what brought about the formation of their holy marriage.  If all you do all day is masturbate to Ms. K, then you have a problem.  Similarly drinking alcohol is not a sin, but if that's all you do then you have taken what is good and made it sinful.  The sin is in the excess in that case.

Other than your literal interpretation of the Song of Solomon in the first 2 clauses, we agree on the rest of the paragraph.  Let's work on that foundation. 

But again, I'm not your judge.  If the Spirit convicts you in your conscience that it is wrong, then by all means avoid it.  Some people are convicted to be celibate.  Others aren't.  Different people have different convictions, and that is fine.  I'm not God.  As God your questions.

The Orthodox Church is equipped to handle different people with different convictions.  Usually, the Church invites them to return home, if they're Orthodox.  If they're not Orthodox, then different Priests (who do exercise different convictions) tell different things; usually to the effect of "if you don't like it, leave."  For example, one inquires about the Orthodox Church and is not ready to leave their former religion behind.  When that person is finally ready to become part of the Orthodox Church, then a Priest will pay attention to them.

What about the married man who covets his former high school classmates on Facebook, meets one of them at a hotel bar and has sex with her?

Then he has committed adultery, both when he lusted for the woman other than his wife and when he had sex with her.

A sin that has major consequences financially, spiritually, emotionally, etc.

I'm not the only one who said that sexual lust outside of marriage - gee, I really have to keep adding that disclaimer - is a sin.  I'm the only one debating you in this thread.

Such desires are *sometimes* sinful (in sinful contexts) and sometimes holy (in holy contexts).  For instance, marriage involved intense sexual desires.  See Song of Solomon, both before and after the wedding.

Find the term, covet, in the Song of Solomon.

Why?

I'm curious - look in your Scriptures and see if the word covet exists.

You mean the Church's Scriptures, right?

I mean what translations of Scripture are you using.  I told you what I use; at least have the courtesy to share your sources so I can verify them myself.


Either way... that teaching is found in Romans 2.  "For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.  They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."

Need verses.

No you don't.  You should always read the context anyway.  Romans 2.

God's Judgment will be:

according to truth
according to impenitent hearts
according to our deeds (unity of intentions with actions, faith with works)

Page 1523 of the Orthodox Study Bible
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« Reply #140 on: May 03, 2012, 06:54:30 PM »


You're still using lust; I'm using covet.  If I love my wife, I have no need to covet other women.  Yet, I am fallen and subject to temptation and when my wife finds out that I've succumbed to temptation, I have to suffer consequences for my actions.  If my wife cheats on me, she has to suffer her own consequences and it's up to me whether I forgive her or not.  I would forgive her.....
Other than your literal interpretation of the Song of Solomon in the first 2 clauses, we agree on the rest of the paragraph.  Let's work on that foundation.  ...
God's Judgment will be:

according to truth
according to impenitent hearts
according to our deeds (unity of intentions with actions, faith with works)

Page 1523 of the Orthodox Study Bible

And your using "covet" and I'm using "lust."  This is getting ridiculous.  You can argue with yourself about masturbation if you want.  

It will be shown that the requirements of the law are written on hearts, consciences bearing witness and thoughts sometimes accusing and at other times even defending.  This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ.

The Holy Spirit is the main guide for the Christian.  Scripture is our guide too, along with the Church.  But ultimately we are to be led by God.  If you think it is a sin to masturbate, then don't do it.  If you don't think it is a sin, then you're free to do it.  

There is nothing wrong with intense sexual desire.  You could ask me 1000 times to ignore the Song of Solomon, but I feel that God is leading me to pay attention to his Word and believe it.  So... further debate on this point with you is... pointless.  Have a nice day.
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« Reply #141 on: May 03, 2012, 07:02:30 PM »

I do not know about the rest of you, but if I ever get married and have children one day, I really hope that I do not have a boy so that I do not have to ever walk in on him masturbating or anything, or have to lecture him about porn and stuff. I know that my mother once walked in on me masturbating and it was one of the most embarassing moments of my life.
Would you feel better walking in on your daughter?

If you have a daughter, you are still her father.  You had better talk to her about porn and stuff.  If you don't, she will find another man to teach her.

Well wouldn't her mother do that if we had a daughter? I'm not a parent, but I had always assumed that usually the father handles the sons' sexual debauchery while the mother takes care of the daughter. Have you had to have these talks, lectures and lessons with your children yet?

In my house, my parents both handled "the talk" with me, though it wasn't a single talk. It was a series of discussions over a few years right before and as I was going through the early stages of puberty. My Dad explained some stuff, and my Mom explained some things. My Dad read me a book explaining in simple & wholesome terms sexual development and the role love and marriage should play (it was a Christian book, IIRC). My Mom later talked with me about it. When I learned about sexual development in school, I went home and talked with my Mom since my Dad was at work. I actually asked something like "Does that (period) actually happen to girls?" She said, "Yes."

And it was almost always my Mom who would confront me about masturbation (which usually consisted of "Go do that in your room, though I'd prefer you not do it at all").
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« Reply #142 on: May 03, 2012, 07:07:39 PM »

There is nothing wrong with intense sexual desire.  You could ask me 1000 times to ignore the Song of Solomon, but I feel that God is leading me to pay attention to his Word and believe it.  So... further debate on this point with you is... pointless.  Have a nice day.

The Song of Solomon is not the only God inspired Scripture out there.  When I first read the Song of Solomon, I thought it was a graphic love story; however, I realized that there was a deeper meaning that had nothing to do with graphic love.  I used to think that Jesus sinned; I think I told you that in the Premarital Sex thread.  Anyway, even though I believed on the surface that Jesus sinned, deep down inside, something was wrong with that statement and I realized that I was wrong.  You're young; I'm not.  I wish you the best; hopefully, you can reach a different understanding than the understanding you have presented in this thread and others.

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« Reply #143 on: May 03, 2012, 07:34:04 PM »

There is nothing wrong with intense sexual desire.  You could ask me 1000 times to ignore the Song of Solomon, but I feel that God is leading me to pay attention to his Word and believe it.  So... further debate on this point with you is... pointless.  Have a nice day.

The Song of Solomon is not the only God inspired Scripture out there.  When I first read the Song of Solomon, I thought it was a graphic love story; however, I realized that there was a deeper meaning that had nothing to do with graphic love.  I used to think that Jesus sinned; I think I told you that in the Premarital Sex thread.  Anyway, even though I believed on the surface that Jesus sinned, deep down inside, something was wrong with that statement and I realized that I was wrong.  You're young; I'm not.  I wish you the best; hopefully, you can reach a different understanding than the understanding you have presented in this thread and others.

How old am I?  (since you seem to know)

When Jesus fed thousands from five loaves and two fish there was a deeper meaning too.  It showed Him as the new Moses.  Nonetheless, it actually happened.  He literally performed that miracle.  It was actually celebrated and still is.  

The Song of Solomon does have a deeper meaning too; you're right.  However, nonetheless, it still also celebrates intense sexual desires.  There is nothing wrong with such desires.  They were created by God, obviously, and are incredibly wonderful.  Like all wonderful and powerful things though, like alcohol for instance, they can easily be abused.  We must be careful here.  Nonetheless, Scripture plainly teaches that sexual desire is very often an important part of holy marriage, both in the formation of holy marriage and in its practice.

It was prophesied the church would become anti-marriage and anti-many-good-things in 1 Timothy 4.  Be careful with how prohibitive you become toward sexual desire.  I wish you the best also.  I'm out of this thread.  Peace.
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« Reply #144 on: May 03, 2012, 11:20:29 PM »

How old am I?  (since you seem to know)

I don't know.  Does it matter? 

When Jesus fed thousands from five loaves and two fish there was a deeper meaning too.  It showed Him as the new Moses.

New Moses?  The five loves are the first 5 books of the Old Testament and the two fish represent the Gospel and the Epistle.  Jesus was prefiguring the Eucharist for this miracle is present in all 4 Gospels (Page 1295 of the Orthodox Study Bible).  New Moses?

Nonetheless, it actually happened.  He literally performed that miracle.  It was actually celebrated and still is.  

You're right, as Holy Communion or the Eucharist.

It was prophesied the church would become anti-marriage and anti-many-good-things in 1 Timothy 4.  

The church is not "anti-marriage."  The church is against willful disobedience, unthankful dispositions and uncontrolled desires. (Page 1637 of the Orthodox Study Bible)

Be careful with how prohibitive you become toward sexual desire.  I wish you the best also.  I'm out of this thread.  Peace.

Controlling sexual desire (or having someone control your sexual desire) can be a life saving event.
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« Reply #145 on: May 04, 2012, 02:58:14 PM »

How old am I?  (since you seem to know)

I don't know.  Does it matter?  

I asked because you said you know that you're old and I'm young.  That implies that you know how old I am, so I asked in order to test your claim.  #test.successful

When Jesus fed thousands from five loaves and two fish there was a deeper meaning too.  It showed Him as the new Moses.

New Moses?  The five loves are the first 5 books of the Old Testament and the two fish represent the Gospel and the Epistle.  Jesus was prefiguring the Eucharist for this miracle is present in all 4 Gospels (Page 1295 of the Orthodox Study Bible).  New Moses?

Yes.  New Moses.  Not everything is written in your Orthodox Study Bible.  Talk to your priest.  Ask him about Christ as the New Moses in the book of Matthew.

Nonetheless, it actually happened.  He literally performed that miracle.  It was actually celebrated and still is.  

You're right, as Holy Communion or the Eucharist.

... yes, and by being recorded in Scripture and vocally remembered in Church (even outside of the Eucharist).

It was prophesied the church would become anti-marriage and anti-many-good-things in 1 Timothy 4.  

The church is not "anti-marriage."  The church is against willful disobedience, unthankful dispositions and uncontrolled desires. (Page 1637 of the Orthodox Study Bible)

Excuse me.  It was prophesied that many in the church would become anti-many-good-things in 1 Timothy 4, specifically in a way that hinders the formation of marriage.  Intense sexual desires are recorded in the Song as, sometimes, playing a holy and wonderful part of the formation of marriage.  Many in the church deny that and in many cases attempt to hinder or even forbid the natural formation of marriage.  #prophecy.fulfilled

Be careful with how prohibitive you become toward sexual desire.  I wish you the best also.  I'm out of this thread.  Peace.

Controlling sexual desire (or having someone control your sexual desire) can be a life saving event.

Amen.
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« Reply #146 on: May 04, 2012, 03:01:32 PM »

How old am I?  (since you seem to know)

I don't know.  Does it matter? 

When Jesus fed thousands from five loaves and two fish there was a deeper meaning too.  It showed Him as the new Moses.

New Moses?  The five loves are the first 5 books of the Old Testament and the two fish represent the Gospel and the Epistle.  Jesus was prefiguring the Eucharist for this miracle is present in all 4 Gospels (Page 1295 of the Orthodox Study Bible).  New Moses?

Nonetheless, it actually happened.  He literally performed that miracle.  It was actually celebrated and still is.  

You're right, as Holy Communion or the Eucharist.

It was prophesied the church would become anti-marriage and anti-many-good-things in 1 Timothy 4.  

The church is not "anti-marriage."  The church is against willful disobedience, unthankful dispositions and uncontrolled desires. (Page 1637 of the Orthodox Study Bible)

Be careful with how prohibitive you become toward sexual desire.  I wish you the best also.  I'm out of this thread.  Peace.

Controlling sexual desire (or having someone control your sexual desire) can be a life saving event.

Oh.  The OSB is not the final authority on matters?  Sorry, don't think so.
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« Reply #147 on: May 04, 2012, 03:12:11 PM »

Yes.  New Moses.  Not everything is written in your Orthodox Study Bible.  Talk to your priest.  Ask him about Christ as the New Moses in the book of Matthew.

It should be mentioned that we just heard the passage in question last liturgy in my (Coptic Orthodox) church, and our priest taught the same lesson on it as is apparently in the OSB (which is not actually the Bible translation we use), so I would expect that it is likely to be the interpretation you'd get from any Orthodox priest. Not that there might not be other interpretations (though I haven't heard them from our priests), but it is wrong to misrepresent SolEX01 as simply parroting the OSB when it is also the common interpretation of others who do not even use that text.
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« Reply #148 on: May 04, 2012, 04:12:19 PM »

Oh.  The OSB is not the final authority on matters?  Sorry, don't think so.

Who said I made the OSB a final authority on matters?  The Editors of the OSB made a decision to clarify the notes and commentary which emphasizes the major themes of the Christian faith.  The notes give primary attention to:

1.  The Holy Trinity
2.  The Incarnation
3.  The Centrality of the Church
4.  The Virtues: God's call to His people to live righteous and holy lives in Christ

In fact, by citing from the OSB, Orthodox Christian beliefs are made accessible to others.

Page XII of the Orthodox Study Bible
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« Reply #149 on: May 04, 2012, 04:13:53 PM »

Yes.  New Moses.  Not everything is written in your Orthodox Study Bible.  Talk to your priest.  Ask him about Christ as the New Moses in the book of Matthew.

It should be mentioned that we just heard the passage in question last liturgy in my (Coptic Orthodox) church, and our priest taught the same lesson on it as is apparently in the OSB (which is not actually the Bible translation we use), so I would expect that it is likely to be the interpretation you'd get from any Orthodox priest. Not that there might not be other interpretations (though I haven't heard them from our priests), but it is wrong to misrepresent SolEX01 as simply parroting the OSB when it is also the common interpretation of others who do not even use that text.

Thank You for the defense.   Smiley
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« Reply #150 on: May 04, 2012, 04:32:03 PM »

How old am I?  (since you seem to know)

I don't know.  Does it matter?  

I asked because you said you know that you're old and I'm young.  That implies that you know how old I am, so I asked in order to test your claim.  #test.successful

Does it matter how old we are if we are as susceptible to the same temptations whether its women or drugs?

Yes.  New Moses.  Not everything is written in your Orthodox Study Bible.  Talk to your priest.  Ask him about Christ as the New Moses in the book of Matthew.

I will cite from a blog of an Orthodox Priest:

Quote
One point Johnson made which really captured my attention is that St. Paul describes Jesus as the new Adam,  not as a new Moses or new Abraham, not a new Jew or the new Israelite, but a new human being

source

More about Fr. Ted:

Quote
Fr. Ted Bobosh is a priest in the Orthodox Church in America. He has degrees from the Ohio State University, St. Vladimir’s Orthodox Theological Seminary and Fordham University. He is the parish priest of St. Paul the Apostle Church in Dayton, OH.

Excuse me.  It was prophesied that many in the church would become anti-many-good-things in 1 Timothy 4, specifically in a way that hinders the formation of marriage. Intense sexual desires are recorded in the Song as, sometimes, playing a holy and wonderful part of the formation of marriage.  Many in the church deny that and in many cases attempt to hinder or even forbid the natural formation of marriage.  #prophecy.fulfilled

What are you talking about when you say that the prophecy has been fulfilled?  How did your Greek Orthodox Christian friends explain the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony?

Be careful with how prohibitive you become toward sexual desire.  I wish you the best also.  I'm out of this thread.  Peace.

Controlling sexual desire (or having someone control your sexual desire) can be a life saving event.

Amen.

Another point of agreement.   Grin
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« Reply #151 on: May 04, 2012, 05:09:28 PM »

How old am I?  (since you seem to know)

I don't know.  Does it matter?  

I asked because you said you know that you're old and I'm young.  That implies that you know how old I am, so I asked in order to test your claim.  #test.successful

Does it matter how old we are if we are as susceptible to the same temptations whether its women or drugs?

Of course it doesn't.  I only asked because you curiously claimed that I'm young, apparently without knowing my age.  That struck me as odd.  That's the only reason I asked if you honestly know how old I am.

Yes.  New Moses.  Not everything is written in your Orthodox Study Bible.  Talk to your priest.  Ask him about Christ as the New Moses in the book of Matthew.

I will cite from a blog of an Orthodox Priest:

Quote
One point Johnson made which really captured my attention is that St. Paul describes Jesus as the new Adam,  not as a new Moses or new Abraham, not a new Jew or the new Israelite, but a new human being

[He went to] St. Vladimir’s Orthodox Theological Seminary and Fordham University. He is the parish priest of St. Paul the Apostle Church in Dayton, OH.

That's all fine and dandy.  But the priest that personally told me Christ is the new Moses also went to St. Vladimir's, and he is the dean and priest of a Cathedral in the Orthodox Church in America.  More importantly, he's never told me anything false (as far as I can tell).  I won't mention his name in public because he personally asks all catechumens to not quote him publicly (he has had too many experiences where listeners take his words out of context, and once a news organization got a hold of a second or third hand quote and spread false reports about him in the community).

So... as I said I will say again... ask your priest if Matthew paints Christ as the new Moses.  If your priest disagrees with my priest, then perhaps we can continue this conversation about Moses and Christ in private and get to the bottom of why our priests disagree.  

Excuse me.  It was prophesied that many in the church would become anti-many-good-things in 1 Timothy 4, specifically in a way that hinders the formation of marriage. Intense sexual desires are recorded in the Song as, sometimes, playing a holy and wonderful part of the formation of marriage.  Many in the church deny that and in many cases attempt to hinder or even forbid the natural formation of marriage.  #prophecy.fulfilled

What are you talking about when you say that the prophecy has been fulfilled?  How did your Greek Orthodox Christian friends explain the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony?

Many in the Christian churches attempt to hinder or even forbid the very intense sexual desires that Scripture celebrates as part of the natural formation of marriage.  For instance, many in Christian churches forbid sharing a bed or lying down with one another before the wedding.  But such actions are celebrated in holy Scripture as leading up to a holy marriage.  See Song of Solomon.  

Many of my Greek Orthodox Christian friends considered marriage to be something that occurs between two people and God, and then is (sometimes) recognized by the Church (if the couple wants to celebrate their marriage in the Church).
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« Reply #152 on: May 04, 2012, 06:25:29 PM »

How old am I?  (since you seem to know)

I don't know.  Does it matter?  

I asked because you said you know that you're old and I'm young.  That implies that you know how old I am, so I asked in order to test your claim.  #test.successful

Does it matter how old we are if we are as susceptible to the same temptations whether its women or drugs?

Of course it doesn't.  I only asked because you curiously claimed that I'm young, apparently without knowing my age.  That struck me as odd.  That's the only reason I asked if you honestly know how old I am.

I'm 38.

Excuse me.  It was prophesied that many in the church would become anti-many-good-things in 1 Timothy 4, specifically in a way that hinders the formation of marriage. Intense sexual desires are recorded in the Song as, sometimes, playing a holy and wonderful part of the formation of marriage.  Many in the church deny that and in many cases attempt to hinder or even forbid the natural formation of marriage.  #prophecy.fulfilled

What are you talking about when you say that the prophecy has been fulfilled?  How did your Greek Orthodox Christian friends explain the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony?

Many in the Christian churches attempt to hinder or even forbid the very intense sexual desires that Scripture celebrates as part of the natural formation of marriage.  For instance, many in Christian churches forbid sharing a bed or lying down with one another before the wedding.  But such actions are celebrated in holy Scripture as leading up to a holy marriage.  See Song of Solomon.  

Many of my Greek Orthodox Christian friends considered marriage to be something that occurs between two people and God, and then is (sometimes) recognized by the Church (if the couple wants to celebrate their marriage in the Church).

Your Greek Orthodox Christian friends can give no theological basis behind celebrating the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony?
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« Reply #153 on: May 04, 2012, 08:31:30 PM »

Oh.  The OSB is not the final authority on matters?  Sorry, don't think so.

Who said I made the OSB a final authority on matters?  The Editors of the OSB made a decision to clarify the notes and commentary which emphasizes the major themes of the Christian faith.  The notes give primary attention to:

1.  The Holy Trinity
2.  The Incarnation
3.  The Centrality of the Church
4.  The Virtues: God's call to His people to live righteous and holy lives in Christ

In fact, by citing from the OSB, Orthodox Christian beliefs are made accessible to others.

Page XII of the Orthodox Study Bible

No, neo-Protestant mumbo jumbo is foisted on Orthodox Christians.  Yes, I've read the OSB.  And I got rid of it.
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« Reply #154 on: May 04, 2012, 08:56:21 PM »

Oh.  The OSB is not the final authority on matters?  Sorry, don't think so.

Who said I made the OSB a final authority on matters?  The Editors of the OSB made a decision to clarify the notes and commentary which emphasizes the major themes of the Christian faith.  The notes give primary attention to:

1.  The Holy Trinity
2.  The Incarnation
3.  The Centrality of the Church
4.  The Virtues: God's call to His people to live righteous and holy lives in Christ

In fact, by citing from the OSB, Orthodox Christian beliefs are made accessible to others.

Page XII of the Orthodox Study Bible

No, neo-Protestant mumbo jumbo is foisted on Orthodox Christians.  Yes, I've read the OSB.  And I got rid of it.

I don't see anything neo-Protestant in the OSB.  What did you find lacking, other than neo-Protestantism, with the OSB?   Huh
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« Reply #155 on: May 05, 2012, 12:43:29 AM »

acts420, if you anticipate so eagerly your entry into the Church, don't you think it better you learn and submit to the Church's wisdom than demand that the Church learn and submit to your folly?
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« Reply #156 on: May 05, 2012, 04:57:59 AM »

acts420, if you anticipate so eagerly your entry into the Church, don't you think it better you learn and submit to the Church's wisdom than demand that the Church learn and submit to your folly?

Dear Peter, Christ is Risen!  

Yes I do think it is better to learn and submit to the Church's wisdom.   But submission to you and submission to the Church's wisdom are two very different things.  I do submit to the Church, and I have never demanded that anyone, much less the Church, submit to me.  I have only shared my opinions here.

It seems to me that you are implying I should follow the majority of those who decided to comment on this thread in order to follow the Church.  But following the Church is not the same thing as following an anonymous bunch of people on an internet message board, even a message board that calls itself "orthodox Christian."  Anyone can call anything orthodox Christian.  I could call my dog an "orthodox Christian" dog if I wanted to.  That doesn't mean my dog is "the Church."

You may even be arrogantly implying I should follow you in order to follow the Church!  But following the Church is also not the same thing as following the moderators of "orthodox Christian" websites.  In fact, if anything, the moderators of privately owned internet forums are the last people anyone should follow!  The type of people that get attracted to positions of anonymous "authority" over privately owned websites are sometimes simply attracted to the feeling they get when they call others foolish and attempt to make others submit to them.  Maybe it makes them feel powerful; power is like a drug in many ways, a very addictive one.  But the reality is that such people have no authority whatsoever in the kingdom, and they are sometimes so blinded by their power that they think their own folly is wisdom.  I should follow a bunch of random internet users before I follow such people!  

Who I should actually follow is the actual Church, the real One.  The actual Holy, Catholic, Apostolic, Church guides me through the Spirit, the holy Scriptures, the divine Liturgy, and the Church Fathers.  I am obedient to my God first; I seek to obey his Spirit as I pray and search His Scriptures.  I am obedient to my priest in the flesh, as he is to my Bishop, and I seek spiritual advice from him and all the Fathers.  I attend the liturgy and learn from the services.

As far as I can tell, God has never taught me that masturbation is a sin.  Likewise, the orthodox Church has never taught me that masturbation is a sin.  So I don't tell others it is a sin.  Although I value you as a human being in the image of God, I don't place two cents worth of value on what you "teach" me... especially you (given how you've treated me since I've known you).  

"We must obey God rather than human beings!  The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead — whom you killed by hanging him on a cross.  God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins.  We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him." (the Holy Apostles, from Acts chapter 5)
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« Reply #157 on: May 05, 2012, 09:04:30 AM »

acts420, if you anticipate so eagerly your entry into the Church, don't you think it better you learn and submit to the Church's wisdom than demand that the Church learn and submit to your folly?

Dear Peter, Christ is Risen!  

Yes I do think it is better to learn and submit to the Church's wisdom.   But submission to you and submission to the Church's wisdom are two very different things.  I do submit to the Church, and I have never demanded that anyone, much less the Church, submit to me.  I have only shared my opinions here.

It seems to me that you are implying I should follow the majority of those who decided to comment on this thread in order to follow the Church.
A lot of things seem to you, but I've learned from personal experience that most of what you see in the words of others is merely your own reflection.

But following the Church is not the same thing as following an anonymous bunch of people on an internet message board, even a message board that calls itself "orthodox Christian."  Anyone can call anything orthodox Christian.  I could call my dog an "orthodox Christian" dog if I wanted to.  That doesn't mean my dog is "the Church."

You may even be arrogantly implying I should follow you in order to follow the Church!  But following the Church is also not the same thing as following the moderators of "orthodox Christian" websites.  In fact, if anything, the moderators of privately owned internet forums are the last people anyone should follow!  The type of people that get attracted to positions of anonymous "authority" over privately owned websites are sometimes simply attracted to the feeling they get when they call others foolish and attempt to make others submit to them.  Maybe it makes them feel powerful; power is like a drug in many ways, a very addictive one.  But the reality is that such people have no authority whatsoever in the kingdom, and they are sometimes so blinded by their power that they think their own folly is wisdom.  I should follow a bunch of random internet users before I follow such people!
But go ahead and listen only to your interpretation of what other people say rather than give others a chance to interpret for you what they really want you to hear.

Who I should actually follow is the actual Church, the real One.  The actual Holy, Catholic, Apostolic, Church guides me through the Spirit, the holy Scriptures, the divine Liturgy, and the Church Fathers.  I am obedient to my God first; I seek to obey his Spirit as I pray and search His Scriptures.  I am obedient to my priest in the flesh, as he is to my Bishop, and I seek spiritual advice from him and all the Fathers.  I attend the liturgy and learn from the services.

As far as I can tell, God has never taught me that masturbation is a sin.  Likewise, the orthodox Church has never taught me that masturbation is a sin.
I don't know what Orthodox Church you're talking about, then, because the Orthodox Church I know teaches that masturbation is a disordered practice and, therefore, a sin.
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« Reply #158 on: May 05, 2012, 01:01:49 PM »

I am going to print this out and post it on my wall so I can see it.  I have never seen someone write something so in tune with what I feel before.

acts420, if you anticipate so eagerly your entry into the Church, don't you think it better you learn and submit to the Church's wisdom than demand that the Church learn and submit to your folly?

Dear Peter, Christ is Risen! 

Yes I do think it is better to learn and submit to the Church's wisdom.   But submission to you and submission to the Church's wisdom are two very different things.  I do submit to the Church, and I have never demanded that anyone, much less the Church, submit to me.  I have only shared my opinions here.

It seems to me that you are implying I should follow the majority of those who decided to comment on this thread in order to follow the Church.  But following the Church is not the same thing as following an anonymous bunch of people on an internet message board, even a message board that calls itself "orthodox Christian."  Anyone can call anything orthodox Christian.  I could call my dog an "orthodox Christian" dog if I wanted to.  That doesn't mean my dog is "the Church."

You may even be arrogantly implying I should follow you in order to follow the Church!  But following the Church is also not the same thing as following the moderators of "orthodox Christian" websites.  In fact, if anything, the moderators of privately owned internet forums are the last people anyone should follow!  The type of people that get attracted to positions of anonymous "authority" over privately owned websites are sometimes simply attracted to the feeling they get when they call others foolish and attempt to make others submit to them.  Maybe it makes them feel powerful; power is like a drug in many ways, a very addictive one.  But the reality is that such people have no authority whatsoever in the kingdom, and they are sometimes so blinded by their power that they think their own folly is wisdom.  I should follow a bunch of random internet users before I follow such people! 

Who I should actually follow is the actual Church, the real One.  The actual Holy, Catholic, Apostolic, Church guides me through the Spirit, the holy Scriptures, the divine Liturgy, and the Church Fathers.  I am obedient to my God first; I seek to obey his Spirit as I pray and search His Scriptures.  I am obedient to my priest in the flesh, as he is to my Bishop, and I seek spiritual advice from him and all the Fathers.  I attend the liturgy and learn from the services.

As far as I can tell, God has never taught me that masturbation is a sin.  Likewise, the orthodox Church has never taught me that masturbation is a sin.  So I don't tell others it is a sin.  Although I value you as a human being in the image of God, I don't place two cents worth of value on what you "teach" me... especially you (given how you've treated me since I've known you). 

"We must obey God rather than human beings!  The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead — whom you killed by hanging him on a cross.  God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins.  We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him." (the Holy Apostles, from Acts chapter 5)
« Last Edit: May 05, 2012, 01:04:02 PM by Punch » Logged

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« Reply #159 on: May 06, 2012, 03:26:42 AM »

Okay, let me see if I can sum all these points up as the vast majority of Orthodox Christians in this thread have put it. Some of it may seem pretty basic, but I want to be clear to avoid confusion for others or myself:

  • Lust is having sexual desires for someone who is not your spouse. It can happen when a person is not married or while he or she is married.
  • Sexual desire outside of marriage is not permitted and is considered lust. Sexual desire within marriage is permitted up to a certain point, provided that it is for a person's spouse.
  • Solo masturbation is not permitted when it is sexual in nature (as in fantasizing about a woman or man). Solo masturbation that is sexual in nature is a sin.
  • Mutual masturbation within marriage is alright.
  • While solo masturbation is a sin and should be confessed during confession, it is at the same time not something that we should have great anxiety over, particularly if a person struggles with it as a temptation.
  • Adultery is a sin, and having sexual desires for someone who is not your spouse is also a sin
  • Sex is something that should be confined within the bounds of marriage. It is sinful if you engage in it before marriage or outside of marriage.
  • It is sinful to deny your spouse sex when he or she wants it.
  • At the same time, sex is something that should be treated with the amount of reverence it deserves.
  • There is not single "Orthodox" sexual position (i.e. Missionary, etc.)
  • As with all other things, consult with your spiritual father about these issues if you struggle with them (and I think that is all of us).

I realize there is at least one of us here who disagrees with basically every point, but I want to make sure I have everything right in points that are as succinct as possible.

Also, apparently, "sodomy" is a godless Latinization.
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« Reply #160 on: May 06, 2012, 05:53:15 PM »

Okay, let me see if I can sum all these points up as the vast majority of Orthodox Christians in this thread have put it. Some of it may seem pretty basic, but I want to be clear to avoid confusion for others or myself:

  • Lust is having sexual desires for someone who is not your spouse. It can happen when a person is not married or while he or she is married.
  • Sexual desire outside of marriage is not permitted and is considered lust. Sexual desire within marriage is permitted up to a certain point, provided that it is for a person's spouse.
  • Solo masturbation is not permitted when it is sexual in nature (as in fantasizing about a woman or man). Solo masturbation that is sexual in nature is a sin.
  • Mutual masturbation within marriage is alright.
  • While solo masturbation is a sin and should be confessed during confession, it is at the same time not something that we should have great anxiety over, particularly if a person struggles with it as a temptation.
  • Adultery is a sin, and having sexual desires for someone who is not your spouse is also a sin
  • Sex is something that should be confined within the bounds of marriage. It is sinful if you engage in it before marriage or outside of marriage.
  • It is sinful to deny your spouse sex when he or she wants it.
  • At the same time, sex is something that should be treated with the amount of reverence it deserves.
  • There is not single "Orthodox" sexual position (i.e. Missionary, etc.)
  • As with all other things, consult with your spiritual father about these issues if you struggle with them (and I think that is all of us).

I realize there is at least one of us here who disagrees with basically every point, but I want to make sure I have everything right in points that are as succinct as possible.

Also, apparently, "sodomy" is a godless Latinization.

Well, you have at least one here that agrees with everything that you have written here.
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« Reply #161 on: May 06, 2012, 06:36:18 PM »

Lust is still sinful in a marriage. That is, when your spouse becomes an object of your lust. There is a difference between sexual attraction with your spouse and lusting after them.
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« Reply #162 on: May 06, 2012, 08:38:30 PM »

Lust is still sinful in a marriage. That is, when your spouse becomes an object of your lust. There is a difference between sexual attraction with your spouse and lusting after them.
But what is lust?
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« Reply #163 on: May 06, 2012, 08:41:13 PM »

Quid est veritas?
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« Reply #164 on: May 06, 2012, 08:43:22 PM »

Lust is still sinful in a marriage. That is, when your spouse becomes an object of your lust. There is a difference between sexual attraction with your spouse and lusting after them.
But what is lust?

To grab a definition from the Catholic Encyclopedia:
"The inordinate craving for, or indulgence of, the carnal pleasure which is experienced in the human organs of generation."
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« Reply #165 on: May 06, 2012, 08:47:33 PM »

Quid est veritas?

Deus. Id est pater et filius et spiritus sanctus.
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« Reply #166 on: May 06, 2012, 08:49:54 PM »

Lust is still sinful in a marriage. That is, when your spouse becomes an object of your lust. There is a difference between sexual attraction with your spouse and lusting after them.
But what is lust?

To grab a definition from the Catholic Encyclopedia:
"The inordinate craving for, or indulgence of, the carnal pleasure which is experienced in the human organs of generation."
So how is it possible for one's desire for one's spouse to cross the line into inordinate?
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« Reply #167 on: May 06, 2012, 08:54:28 PM »

Lust is still sinful in a marriage. That is, when your spouse becomes an object of your lust. There is a difference between sexual attraction with your spouse and lusting after them.
But what is lust?

To grab a definition from the Catholic Encyclopedia:
"The inordinate craving for, or indulgence of, the carnal pleasure which is experienced in the human organs of generation."
So how is it possible for one's desire for one's spouse to cross the line into inordinate?

When your desire for your spouse is merely for your own gratification. To use your spouse like a sex toy. When this happens, the act is not a loving bond between husband and wife. Instead it becomes a twisted manifestation of self-satisfaction.
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« Reply #168 on: May 06, 2012, 08:55:58 PM »

Quid est veritas?

Deus. Id est pater et filius et spiritus sanctus.

Time to change your faith tag?  Smiley
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« Reply #169 on: May 06, 2012, 08:56:59 PM »

Quid est veritas?

Deus. Id est pater et filius et spiritus sanctus.

Time to change your faith tag?  Smiley

LOL!  Smiley
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« Reply #170 on: May 07, 2012, 10:22:21 AM »

Lust is still sinful in a marriage. That is, when your spouse becomes an object of your lust. There is a difference between sexual attraction with your spouse and lusting after them.
But what is lust?

To grab a definition from the Catholic Encyclopedia:
"The inordinate craving for, or indulgence of, the carnal pleasure which is experienced in the human organs of generation."
So how is it possible for one's desire for one's spouse to cross the line into inordinate?

I heard a story that when Sean Penn and Madonna were married he tied her up in the hotel room... but then he left...

 A little funny actually..a little sick too..certainly inordinate.
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« Reply #171 on: May 08, 2012, 12:06:07 AM »

Lust is still sinful in a marriage. That is, when your spouse becomes an object of your lust. There is a difference between sexual attraction with your spouse and lusting after them.
But what is lust?

To grab a definition from the Catholic Encyclopedia:
"The inordinate craving for, or indulgence of, the carnal pleasure which is experienced in the human organs of generation."
So how is it possible for one's desire for one's spouse to cross the line into inordinate?

I heard a story that when Sean Penn and Madonna were married he tied her up in the hotel room... but then he left...

 A little funny actually..a little sick too..certainly inordinate.
Did he gag her?
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« Reply #172 on: May 08, 2012, 12:11:13 AM »

Lust is still sinful in a marriage. That is, when your spouse becomes an object of your lust. There is a difference between sexual attraction with your spouse and lusting after them.
But what is lust?

To grab a definition from the Catholic Encyclopedia:
"The inordinate craving for, or indulgence of, the carnal pleasure which is experienced in the human organs of generation."
So how is it possible for one's desire for one's spouse to cross the line into inordinate?

When your desire for your spouse is merely for your own gratification. To use your spouse like a sex toy. When this happens, the act is not a loving bond between husband and wife. Instead it becomes a twisted manifestation of self-satisfaction.
ah, but the devil is in the details: as I've posted links to moralists speaking for the Vatican's view, class oral sex and mutual masturbation  ipso facto as "merely for your own gratification."
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« Reply #173 on: May 08, 2012, 01:22:52 AM »

Quote
Many of my Greek Orthodox Christian friends considered marriage to be something that occurs between two people and God, and then is (sometimes) recognized by the Church (if the couple wants to celebrate their marriage in the Church).
Your friends were poorly catechized, because that's not how sacraments work.

Marriage is between a couple and God, but a priest is required to the administer the sacrament. Two laymen cannot administer the sacrament of marriage for themselves.

Furthermore, we're not Protestants. We don't believe that sacraments are merely "outward signs of an inward change," as they say. The sacraments effect the changes themselves. No wedding = no marriage.

So these friends are not married; they're fornicating.
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« Reply #174 on: May 08, 2012, 02:37:28 AM »

Quote
Many of my Greek Orthodox Christian friends considered marriage to be something that occurs between two people and God, and then is (sometimes) recognized by the Church (if the couple wants to celebrate their marriage in the Church).
Your friends were poorly catechized, because that's not how sacraments work.

Marriage is between a couple and God, but a priest is required to the administer the sacrament. Two laymen cannot administer the sacrament of marriage for themselves.
Btw, the Vatican says they can.  Fr. Corappi often says how the Protestants have only two valid sacraments, baptism and marriage, because they have no priesthood.
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« Reply #175 on: May 08, 2012, 09:34:33 AM »

Lust is still sinful in a marriage. That is, when your spouse becomes an object of your lust. There is a difference between sexual attraction with your spouse and lusting after them.
But what is lust?

To grab a definition from the Catholic Encyclopedia:
"The inordinate craving for, or indulgence of, the carnal pleasure which is experienced in the human organs of generation."
So how is it possible for one's desire for one's spouse to cross the line into inordinate?

I heard a story that when Sean Penn and Madonna were married he tied her up in the hotel room... but then he left...

 A little funny actually..a little sick too..certainly inordinate.
Did he gag her?

That would be my assumption.
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« Reply #176 on: May 22, 2012, 09:02:23 PM »

Just thought I'd pass this along.

https://twitter.com/PlannedParSWCFL/status/203583351897067522

Leave it to Planned Parenthood, heh.
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« Reply #177 on: October 01, 2013, 05:17:20 AM »

This post was a mistake to make. I dont feel I can actually contribute to this thread in any helpful way.
I'm too upset to post calmly or in prayer.
God forgive me.
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« Reply #178 on: April 20, 2014, 01:06:48 PM »

While solo masturbation is a sin and should be confessed during confession, it is at the same time not something that we should have great

Do you agree with this? Masturbation used to be a big problem for me, but over time I've made a lot of progress, and completely cut out pornography. But I still struggle with profound temptation some times, and some times end up giving in. Then I'm racked with terrible guilt and feel awful and like I need to rush to confession. Should I relax a bit (while of course still recognizing it is a sin)?
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« Reply #179 on: April 20, 2014, 03:44:37 PM »

I would rather replace masturbation with intimacy with a partner.
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« Reply #180 on: April 20, 2014, 03:53:52 PM »

Quote from: Paschal Rubrics
During all this week of Renewal, which is reckoned to be one radiant day, we have permission for everything.

Source

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Don't get too excited, guys, it doesn't mean what you think. 
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« Reply #181 on: April 20, 2014, 06:02:43 PM »

Quote from: Paschal Rubrics
During all this week of Renewal, which is reckoned to be one radiant day, we have permission for everything.

Source

Wink





Don't get too excited, guys, it doesn't mean what you think. 

What does it mean?