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God Bless3232
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« on: April 30, 2012, 11:14:53 AM »

Is masturbation allows for teenagers in the greek orthodox church. If not, why? Is it allowed when you are married.
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« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2012, 11:27:58 AM »

It's "allowed" when you're married because you can think about your spouse.
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« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2012, 11:29:33 AM »

No more allowed than lying to one's parents or wife.

It's "allowed" when you're married because you can think about your spouse.
No, not even then.
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« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2012, 11:32:38 AM »

You are supposed to avoid lust if you can (see, for example, Matt. 5:27-28). There are other ideas for why people say you shouldn't masturbate, but the lust reason usually covers most people.
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« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2012, 11:39:47 AM »

No more allowed than lying to one's parents or wife.

It's "allowed" when you're married because you can think about your spouse.
No, not even then.

Without wishing to elicit too much information - why ever not?
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« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2012, 11:50:29 AM »

only with a blessing but, u know, when in doubt AYSF
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« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2012, 11:55:59 AM »

No more allowed than lying to one's parents or wife.

It's "allowed" when you're married because you can think about your spouse.
No, not even then.

Without wishing to elicit too much information - why ever not?

If I had to take a crack at it, I'd say that with the admonition than husbands submit to their wives and wives submit to their husbands, if one party is ever reduced to dolphin flogging then there is a problem.

IDK.  Seems logical, seeing as that marriage is how St. Paul recommends we deal with "burning with desire".

DIY'ing it would be the most efficient method, but going without and burning with desire are much more of a struggle.  Mortify the flesh, and all that, yo.
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« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2012, 12:01:48 PM »

No more allowed than lying to one's parents or wife.

It's "allowed" when you're married because you can think about your spouse.
No, not even then.

Without wishing to elicit too much information - why ever not?

Partially vamrat's response, partially the fact that masturbation is almost a more literal form of "homosexuality" than the common use.
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« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2012, 12:31:26 PM »

only with a blessing but, u know, when in doubt AYSF

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« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2012, 12:32:07 PM »

It's "allowed" when you're married because you can think about your spouse.
Are you Greek Orthodox?
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« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2012, 12:33:06 PM »

On the basis that i don't want to hijack God Bless3232's thread i'll leave it there but even after taking your answers into consideration, i still disagree.
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« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2012, 12:34:05 PM »

It's "allowed" when you're married because you can think about your spouse.
Are you Greek Orthodox?

Did you miss the words "Free For-All"?
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« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2012, 12:44:48 PM »

Sexual union between married couples is an act of giving themselves to each other. It's a sacrifice of sharing each other in one flesh. With masturbation the only person you are "pleasuring" is yourself.
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« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2012, 12:46:26 PM »

You are supposed to avoid lust if you can (see, for example, Matt. 5:27-28). There are other ideas for why people say you shouldn't masturbate, but the lust reason usually covers most people.
Lust would basically be the only problem.  "Wasting seed" is not.
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« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2012, 12:49:27 PM »

You are supposed to avoid lust if you can (see, for example, Matt. 5:27-28). There are other ideas for why people say you shouldn't masturbate, but the lust reason usually covers most people.
Lust would basically be the only problem.  "Wasting seed" is not.

why not?
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« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2012, 12:50:32 PM »

Sexual union between married couples is an act of giving themselves to each other. It's a sacrifice of sharing each other in one flesh. With masturbation the only person you are "pleasuring" is yourself.

One problem I have with this part of the argument against it is that masturbation can be done together with a spouse, either each taking care of themselves but still enjoying one another's company, or taking care of each other.
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« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2012, 01:43:14 PM »

What if it occurs during the act of marital intercourse/foreplay, etc.? Surely that's not a problem.
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« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2012, 02:14:48 PM »

I think it is important to make a distinction between auto-eroticism and marital foreplay in this discussion, though this might be a departure from Tradition, at least as far as the celibate Fathers are concerned- the married Fathers apparently not having too much time for book and letter writing, for some strange reason....

What goes on in the marriage bed should stay in the marriage bed, though if one or both spouses feel guilty about something or are unsure about the morality of certain acts it is certainly appropriate to get advice from a married parish priest.

Still, the Church definitely forbids taking matters into one's own hands.
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« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2012, 02:28:14 PM »

What about a person who is going through puberty? Although it may still be a sin, erasable by confession, it may be a little more understandable because everybody has that time in their lives.
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« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2012, 02:31:56 PM »

You are supposed to avoid lust if you can (see, for example, Matt. 5:27-28). There are other ideas for why people say you shouldn't masturbate, but the lust reason usually covers most people.
Lust would basically be the only problem.  "Wasting seed" is not.

why not?
Because it is not, Father.

To follow up on an aspect that FR brings up, it is not a sin, for instance, for a wife to take her husband's matters into her own hands.

We can go from there.
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« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2012, 02:33:14 PM »

Sexual union between married couples is an act of giving themselves to each other. It's a sacrifice of sharing each other in one flesh. With masturbation the only person you are "pleasuring" is yourself.
Same with a gourmet meal.
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« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2012, 02:34:31 PM »

ya the act of spilling seed was a punishable offense in the OT
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« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2012, 02:35:24 PM »

Sexual union between married couples is an act of giving themselves to each other. It's a sacrifice of sharing each other in one flesh. With masturbation the only person you are "pleasuring" is yourself.

i don't think that's necessarily true..
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« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2012, 02:38:38 PM »

ya the act of spilling seed was a punishable offense in the OT
depends if you were spilling it in your neighbor's wife.  Or a goat.
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« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2012, 02:40:21 PM »

No more allowed than lying to one's parents or wife.

It's "allowed" when you're married because you can think about your spouse.
No, not even then.

Without wishing to elicit too much information - why ever not?

Well................................what would be the point?
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« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2012, 02:40:29 PM »

ya the act of spilling seed was a punishable offense in the OT
depends if you were spilling it in your neighbor's wife.  Or a goat.

rofl. i was talking about spilling it carelessly, i.e. on the ground.
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« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2012, 02:41:12 PM »

ya the act of spilling seed was a punishable offense in the OT

oh crap
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« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2012, 02:42:49 PM »

No more allowed than lying to one's parents or wife.

It's "allowed" when you're married because you can think about your spouse.
No, not even then.

Without wishing to elicit too much information - why ever not?

Well................................what would be the point?

more pleasure during sex, for one (referring to women primarily)? I think that doing it by yourself outside of the act of marriage leads to trouble though, i think that stands to reason. Some have mentioned the concept of webcam's before...kind of murky area but to me that seems like a mutual thing between two married persons.
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« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2012, 02:43:21 PM »

ya the act of spilling seed was a punishable offense in the OT

oh crap

again, rofl.
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« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2012, 02:47:29 PM »

ya the act of spilling seed was a punishable offense in the OT

oh crap

again, rofl.

Poor Onan, he didn't even have a goat, and look what happened to him.  Huh
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« Reply #30 on: April 30, 2012, 02:47:47 PM »

ya the act of spilling seed was a punishable offense in the OT
depends if you were spilling it in your neighbor's wife.  Or a goat.

rofl. i was talking about spilling it carelessly, i.e. on the ground.
Onan?  It never ceases to amuse me how those who are so incensed about every last drop of Onan's spermzoa falling on the ground haven't the slightest concern about him using his brother's wife, through fraud, as a sex toy.

Btw, "Onanism" in the matter at hand is an invention of the "enlightenment."  No connection that I've seen was ever draw by the Fathers to Onan.
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« Reply #31 on: April 30, 2012, 02:48:42 PM »

ya the act of spilling seed was a punishable offense in the OT

oh crap

again, rofl.
what if you if you are on the ground floor?  Watch out where you roll.
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« Reply #32 on: April 30, 2012, 02:50:03 PM »

What about a person who is going through puberty? Although it may still be a sin, erasable by confession, it may be a little more understandable because everybody has that time in their lives.

At what age does puberty end, again?
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« Reply #33 on: April 30, 2012, 02:51:46 PM »

What about a person who is going through puberty? Although it may still be a sin, erasable by confession, it may be a little more understandable because everybody has that time in their lives.

At what age does puberty end, again?

Well, each person is different. It's usually 11-16 or so.
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« Reply #34 on: April 30, 2012, 02:58:55 PM »

Hmm, maybe not...
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« Reply #35 on: April 30, 2012, 02:59:24 PM »

ya the act of spilling seed was a punishable offense in the OT

oh crap

again, rofl.
what if you if you are on the ground floor?  Watch out where you roll.

haha i'm rofling too much to pay any attention at this point!  Cheesy
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« Reply #36 on: April 30, 2012, 03:01:32 PM »

ya the act of spilling seed was a punishable offense in the OT
depends if you were spilling it in your neighbor's wife.  Or a goat.

rofl. i was talking about spilling it carelessly, i.e. on the ground.
Onan?  It never ceases to amuse me how those who are so incensed about every last drop of Onan's spermzoa falling on the ground haven't the slightest concern about him using his brother's wife, through fraud, as a sex toy.

Btw, "Onanism" in the matter at hand is an invention of the "enlightenment."  No connection that I've seen was ever draw by the Fathers to Onan.

St. Clement allegedly said this:

Clement of Alexandria, while not making explicit reference to Onan, similarly reflects an early Christian view of the abhorrence of '"spilling seed'":
 "Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly ejaculated, nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted"[7] "To have coitus other than to procreate children is to do injury to nature"[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onan
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« Reply #37 on: April 30, 2012, 03:02:54 PM »

Well, this is definitely one of the more interesting threads I've read in a while.

Watching it with interest, heh.
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« Reply #38 on: April 30, 2012, 03:06:56 PM »

St. Clement allegedly said this:

Clement of Alexandria, while not making explicit reference to Onan, similarly reflects an early Christian view of the abhorrence of '"spilling seed'":
 "Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly ejaculated, nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted"[7] "To have coitus other than to procreate children is to do injury to nature"[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onan
Clement of Alexandria isn't the source you want to go to for seed-related questions.


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« Reply #39 on: April 30, 2012, 03:08:13 PM »

Something I've been wondering for quite a while as well although I have never explicitely asked it, although I have mentioned my excessive habit of it. *sigh* Why does everything that feels good have to be bad or condemned? I know that all of the Fathers and everyone I ask would say that sexual pleasure is not bad if it is in the marriage context, but times have changed. Back when the Fathers and everything said this, it was not as heavy a burden to wait until marriage because you could get married at like age 14, but now most people do not even get married until their twenties. So clearly we have a much heavier burden on us in present times in terms of abstinence than the Fathers anticipated when they spoke of this. If I have to wait so long until I can really have sex, then I see no reason why I should not be allowed to masturbate to pass the time. If I am really expected to give all of this up for such a long time, then there is no hope for me because I can't and I do not even know if I am willing to. Masturbation is the one pleasure that makes everything to me feel better. And now I have to give it up? Sad
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« Reply #40 on: April 30, 2012, 03:11:42 PM »

In all honesty, I struggled with it a lot in my adolescence. I still do today, but less so. With me, it seems its sometimes purely out of lust, and sometimes out of anxiety (something I struggle with otherwise), adrenaline rush, or just generally being hyped up over something completely unrelated.
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« Reply #41 on: April 30, 2012, 03:13:44 PM »

Remember, the spirit over the flesh.
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« Reply #42 on: April 30, 2012, 03:16:02 PM »

Remember, the spirit over the flesh.

But Jesus redeemed the flesh? Fully God and fully Human?
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You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
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James, you have problemz.
Justin Kissel
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« Reply #43 on: April 30, 2012, 03:20:12 PM »

...Masturbation is the one pleasure that makes everything to me feel better. And now I have to give it up? Sad

Well, they are called crosses (that you're suppose to be carrying)...

I'm not being flippant. I'm in the same position as you, really. I'm just saying, it's not easy, but what are you gonna do? Some things are harder to deal with, some easier.

I just tell myself to not excuse things, but also not to get down about them. "Be perfect" is a goal to shoot for, not an expectation that we will probably achieve at this very moment. (actually I would argue that we'll never achieve it, because we'll always be growing more perfect)

Don't treat it like a non-issue, but also don't let it destroy your progress you are making. Also, use it as a reminder when you want to judge someone else. Maybe someone else's problem is just as difficult to overcome for them as this is for us.
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St. Basil is great!

Wonder if he drank goat's milk . . .

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« Reply #44 on: April 30, 2012, 03:21:27 PM »

...Masturbation is the one pleasure that makes everything to me feel better. And now I have to give it up? Sad

Well, they are called crosses (that you're suppose to be carrying)...

I'm not being flippant. I'm in the same position as you, really. I'm just saying, it's not easy, but what are you gonna do? Some things are harder to deal with, some easier.

I just tell myself to not excuse things, but also not to get down about them. "Be perfect" is a goal to shoot for, not an expectation that we will probably achieve at this very moment. (actually I would argue that we'll never achieve it, because we'll always be growing more perfect)

Don't treat it like a non-issue, but also don't let it destroy your progress you are making. Also, use it as a reminder when you want to judge someone else. Maybe someone else's problem is just as difficult to overcome for them as this is for us.

Wow thanks, that is some good advice.
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You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
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