God Bless3232
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« on: April 30, 2012, 11:14:53 AM » |
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Is masturbation allows for teenagers in the greek orthodox church. If not, why? Is it allowed when you are married.
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FountainPen
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« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2012, 11:27:58 AM » |
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It's "allowed" when you're married because you can think about your spouse.
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None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain
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FormerReformer
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« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2012, 11:29:33 AM » |
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No more allowed than lying to one's parents or wife. It's "allowed" when you're married because you can think about your spouse.
No, not even then. |
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"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are." TH White Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy! |
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Asteriktos
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« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2012, 11:32:38 AM » |
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You are supposed to avoid lust if you can (see, for example, Matt. 5:27-28). There are other ideas for why people say you shouldn't masturbate, but the lust reason usually covers most people.
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FountainPen
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« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2012, 11:39:47 AM » |
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No more allowed than lying to one's parents or wife. It's "allowed" when you're married because you can think about your spouse.
No, not even then. Without wishing to elicit too much information - why ever not? |
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None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain
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augustin717
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« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2012, 11:50:29 AM » |
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only with a blessing but, u know, when in doubt AYSF
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vamrat
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« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2012, 11:55:59 AM » |
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No more allowed than lying to one's parents or wife. It's "allowed" when you're married because you can think about your spouse.
No, not even then. Without wishing to elicit too much information - why ever not? If I had to take a crack at it, I'd say that with the admonition than husbands submit to their wives and wives submit to their husbands, if one party is ever reduced to dolphin flogging then there is a problem. IDK. Seems logical, seeing as that marriage is how St. Paul recommends we deal with "burning with desire". DIY'ing it would be the most efficient method, but going without and burning with desire are much more of a struggle. Mortify the flesh, and all that, yo. |
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It is an education process for me as I learn about the psychology of spiritual apostasy. And others get the benefit of perhaps hearing righteousness for the first time.
Blessed are the Peacemakers, for they shall be called the sons of God.
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FormerReformer
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« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2012, 12:01:48 PM » |
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No more allowed than lying to one's parents or wife. It's "allowed" when you're married because you can think about your spouse.
No, not even then. Without wishing to elicit too much information - why ever not? Partially vamrat's response, partially the fact that masturbation is almost a more literal form of "homosexuality" than the common use. |
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"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are." TH White Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy! |
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Alveus Lacuna
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« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2012, 12:31:26 PM » |
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only with a blessing but, u know, when in doubt AYSF
I fall more in love with you every day. |
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2012, 12:32:07 PM » |
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It's "allowed" when you're married because you can think about your spouse.
Are you Greek Orthodox? |
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FountainPen
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« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2012, 12:33:06 PM » |
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On the basis that i don't want to hijack God Bless3232's thread i'll leave it there but even after taking your answers into consideration, i still disagree.
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None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain
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FountainPen
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« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2012, 12:34:05 PM » |
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It's "allowed" when you're married because you can think about your spouse.
Are you Greek Orthodox? Did you miss the words "Free For-All"? |
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« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 12:34:52 PM by FountainPen »
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None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try. Mark Twain
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Manalive
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It is later than we think.
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« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2012, 12:44:48 PM » |
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Sexual union between married couples is an act of giving themselves to each other. It's a sacrifice of sharing each other in one flesh. With masturbation the only person you are "pleasuring" is yourself.
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"Lay hold of the pathway... rugged and narrow as it is."- St. John Chrystostom
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ialmisry
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« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2012, 12:46:26 PM » |
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You are supposed to avoid lust if you can (see, for example, Matt. 5:27-28). There are other ideas for why people say you shouldn't masturbate, but the lust reason usually covers most people.
Lust would basically be the only problem. "Wasting seed" is not. |
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
and both come out of your mouth
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serb1389
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« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2012, 12:49:27 PM » |
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You are supposed to avoid lust if you can (see, for example, Matt. 5:27-28). There are other ideas for why people say you shouldn't masturbate, but the lust reason usually covers most people.
Lust would basically be the only problem. "Wasting seed" is not. why not? |
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I got nothing. I forgot the maps March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that |
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Asteriktos
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« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2012, 12:50:32 PM » |
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Sexual union between married couples is an act of giving themselves to each other. It's a sacrifice of sharing each other in one flesh. With masturbation the only person you are "pleasuring" is yourself.
One problem I have with this part of the argument against it is that masturbation can be done together with a spouse, either each taking care of themselves but still enjoying one another's company, or taking care of each other. |
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Ortho_cat
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« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2012, 01:43:14 PM » |
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What if it occurs during the act of marital intercourse/foreplay, etc.? Surely that's not a problem.
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« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 01:43:41 PM by Ortho_cat »
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FormerReformer
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« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2012, 02:14:48 PM » |
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I think it is important to make a distinction between auto-eroticism and marital foreplay in this discussion, though this might be a departure from Tradition, at least as far as the celibate Fathers are concerned- the married Fathers apparently not having too much time for book and letter writing, for some strange reason....
What goes on in the marriage bed should stay in the marriage bed, though if one or both spouses feel guilty about something or are unsure about the morality of certain acts it is certainly appropriate to get advice from a married parish priest.
Still, the Church definitely forbids taking matters into one's own hands.
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"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are." TH White Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy! |
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biro
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Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου
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« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2012, 02:28:14 PM » |
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What about a person who is going through puberty? Although it may still be a sin, erasable by confession, it may be a little more understandable because everybody has that time in their lives.
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phthalyl.podomatic.com
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ialmisry
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« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2012, 02:31:56 PM » |
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You are supposed to avoid lust if you can (see, for example, Matt. 5:27-28). There are other ideas for why people say you shouldn't masturbate, but the lust reason usually covers most people.
Lust would basically be the only problem. "Wasting seed" is not. why not? Because it is not, Father. To follow up on an aspect that FR brings up, it is not a sin, for instance, for a wife to take her husband's matters into her own hands. We can go from there. |
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« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 02:33:55 PM by ialmisry »
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
and both come out of your mouth
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ialmisry
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« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2012, 02:33:14 PM » |
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Sexual union between married couples is an act of giving themselves to each other. It's a sacrifice of sharing each other in one flesh. With masturbation the only person you are "pleasuring" is yourself.
Same with a gourmet meal. |
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
and both come out of your mouth
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Ortho_cat
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« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2012, 02:34:31 PM » |
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ya the act of spilling seed was a punishable offense in the OT
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« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 02:34:43 PM by Ortho_cat »
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Ortho_cat
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« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2012, 02:35:24 PM » |
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Sexual union between married couples is an act of giving themselves to each other. It's a sacrifice of sharing each other in one flesh. With masturbation the only person you are "pleasuring" is yourself.
i don't think that's necessarily true.. |
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ialmisry
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« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2012, 02:38:38 PM » |
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ya the act of spilling seed was a punishable offense in the OT
depends if you were spilling it in your neighbor's wife. Or a goat. |
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
and both come out of your mouth
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Marc1152
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« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2012, 02:40:21 PM » |
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No more allowed than lying to one's parents or wife. It's "allowed" when you're married because you can think about your spouse.
No, not even then. Without wishing to elicit too much information - why ever not? Well................................what would be the point? |
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\"Why were so many Civil War battles fought in National Parks? \"
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Ortho_cat
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« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2012, 02:40:29 PM » |
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ya the act of spilling seed was a punishable offense in the OT
depends if you were spilling it in your neighbor's wife. Or a goat. rofl. i was talking about spilling it carelessly, i.e. on the ground. |
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Marc1152
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« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2012, 02:41:12 PM » |
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ya the act of spilling seed was a punishable offense in the OT
oh crap |
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\"Why were so many Civil War battles fought in National Parks? \"
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Ortho_cat
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« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2012, 02:42:49 PM » |
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No more allowed than lying to one's parents or wife. It's "allowed" when you're married because you can think about your spouse.
No, not even then. Without wishing to elicit too much information - why ever not? Well................................what would be the point? more pleasure during sex, for one (referring to women primarily)? I think that doing it by yourself outside of the act of marriage leads to trouble though, i think that stands to reason. Some have mentioned the concept of webcam's before...kind of murky area but to me that seems like a mutual thing between two married persons. |
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Ortho_cat
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« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2012, 02:43:21 PM » |
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ya the act of spilling seed was a punishable offense in the OT
oh crap again, rofl. |
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biro
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Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου
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« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2012, 02:47:29 PM » |
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ya the act of spilling seed was a punishable offense in the OT
oh crap again, rofl. Poor Onan, he didn't even have a goat, and look what happened to him.  |
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phthalyl.podomatic.com
the-cornet.blogspot.com
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ialmisry
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« Reply #30 on: April 30, 2012, 02:47:47 PM » |
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ya the act of spilling seed was a punishable offense in the OT
depends if you were spilling it in your neighbor's wife. Or a goat. rofl. i was talking about spilling it carelessly, i.e. on the ground. Onan? It never ceases to amuse me how those who are so incensed about every last drop of Onan's spermzoa falling on the ground haven't the slightest concern about him using his brother's wife, through fraud, as a sex toy. Btw, "Onanism" in the matter at hand is an invention of the "enlightenment." No connection that I've seen was ever draw by the Fathers to Onan. |
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
and both come out of your mouth
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ialmisry
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« Reply #31 on: April 30, 2012, 02:48:42 PM » |
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ya the act of spilling seed was a punishable offense in the OT
oh crap again, rofl. what if you if you are on the ground floor? Watch out where you roll. |
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
and both come out of your mouth
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vamrat
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« Reply #32 on: April 30, 2012, 02:50:03 PM » |
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What about a person who is going through puberty? Although it may still be a sin, erasable by confession, it may be a little more understandable because everybody has that time in their lives.
At what age does puberty end, again? |
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It is an education process for me as I learn about the psychology of spiritual apostasy. And others get the benefit of perhaps hearing righteousness for the first time.
Blessed are the Peacemakers, for they shall be called the sons of God.
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biro
Ursus maritimus
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Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου
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« Reply #33 on: April 30, 2012, 02:51:46 PM » |
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What about a person who is going through puberty? Although it may still be a sin, erasable by confession, it may be a little more understandable because everybody has that time in their lives.
At what age does puberty end, again? Well, each person is different. It's usually 11-16 or so. |
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phthalyl.podomatic.com
the-cornet.blogspot.com
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Asteriktos
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« Reply #34 on: April 30, 2012, 02:58:55 PM » |
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Hmm, maybe not...
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« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 03:01:27 PM by Asteriktos »
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Ortho_cat
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« Reply #35 on: April 30, 2012, 02:59:24 PM » |
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ya the act of spilling seed was a punishable offense in the OT
oh crap again, rofl. what if you if you are on the ground floor? Watch out where you roll. haha i'm rofling too much to pay any attention at this point!  |
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Ortho_cat
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« Reply #36 on: April 30, 2012, 03:01:32 PM » |
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ya the act of spilling seed was a punishable offense in the OT
depends if you were spilling it in your neighbor's wife. Or a goat. rofl. i was talking about spilling it carelessly, i.e. on the ground. Onan? It never ceases to amuse me how those who are so incensed about every last drop of Onan's spermzoa falling on the ground haven't the slightest concern about him using his brother's wife, through fraud, as a sex toy. Btw, "Onanism" in the matter at hand is an invention of the "enlightenment." No connection that I've seen was ever draw by the Fathers to Onan. St. Clement allegedly said this: Clement of Alexandria, while not making explicit reference to Onan, similarly reflects an early Christian view of the abhorrence of '"spilling seed'": "Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly ejaculated, nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted"[7] "To have coitus other than to procreate children is to do injury to nature"[8] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onan |
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ironchapman
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« Reply #37 on: April 30, 2012, 03:02:54 PM » |
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Well, this is definitely one of the more interesting threads I've read in a while.
Watching it with interest, heh.
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." --Bertrand Russell
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NicholasMyra
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« Reply #38 on: April 30, 2012, 03:06:56 PM » |
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St. Clement allegedly said this: Clement of Alexandria, while not making explicit reference to Onan, similarly reflects an early Christian view of the abhorrence of '"spilling seed'": "Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly ejaculated, nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted"[7] "To have coitus other than to procreate children is to do injury to nature"[8] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OnanClement of Alexandria isn't the source you want to go to for seed-related questions.  |
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« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 03:17:01 PM by NicholasMyra »
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JamesR
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« Reply #39 on: April 30, 2012, 03:08:13 PM » |
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Something I've been wondering for quite a while as well although I have never explicitely asked it, although I have mentioned my excessive habit of it. *sigh* Why does everything that feels good have to be bad or condemned? I know that all of the Fathers and everyone I ask would say that sexual pleasure is not bad if it is in the marriage context, but times have changed. Back when the Fathers and everything said this, it was not as heavy a burden to wait until marriage because you could get married at like age 14, but now most people do not even get married until their twenties. So clearly we have a much heavier burden on us in present times in terms of abstinence than the Fathers anticipated when they spoke of this. If I have to wait so long until I can really have sex, then I see no reason why I should not be allowed to masturbate to pass the time. If I am really expected to give all of this up for such a long time, then there is no hope for me because I can't and I do not even know if I am willing to. Masturbation is the one pleasure that makes everything to me feel better. And now I have to give it up?  |
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"'Blessed are the peacemakers' For those are peacemakers in themselves who, in conquering and subjecting to reason all the motions of their souls and having their carnal desires tamed, have become in themselves a Kingdom of God."-St. Augustine of Hippo
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ironchapman
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« Reply #40 on: April 30, 2012, 03:11:42 PM » |
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In all honesty, I struggled with it a lot in my adolescence. I still do today, but less so. With me, it seems its sometimes purely out of lust, and sometimes out of anxiety (something I struggle with otherwise), adrenaline rush, or just generally being hyped up over something completely unrelated.
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." --Bertrand Russell
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WeldeMikael
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Lord have mercy !
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« Reply #41 on: April 30, 2012, 03:13:44 PM » |
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Remember, the spirit over the flesh.
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JamesR
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« Reply #42 on: April 30, 2012, 03:16:02 PM » |
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Remember, the spirit over the flesh.
But Jesus redeemed the flesh? Fully God and fully Human? |
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"'Blessed are the peacemakers' For those are peacemakers in themselves who, in conquering and subjecting to reason all the motions of their souls and having their carnal desires tamed, have become in themselves a Kingdom of God."-St. Augustine of Hippo
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Asteriktos
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« Reply #43 on: April 30, 2012, 03:20:12 PM » |
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...Masturbation is the one pleasure that makes everything to me feel better. And now I have to give it up? Well, they are called crosses (that you're suppose to be carrying)... I'm not being flippant. I'm in the same position as you, really. I'm just saying, it's not easy, but what are you gonna do? Some things are harder to deal with, some easier. I just tell myself to not excuse things, but also not to get down about them. "Be perfect" is a goal to shoot for, not an expectation that we will probably achieve at this very moment. (actually I would argue that we'll never achieve it, because we'll always be growing more perfect) Don't treat it like a non-issue, but also don't let it destroy your progress you are making. Also, use it as a reminder when you want to judge someone else. Maybe someone else's problem is just as difficult to overcome for them as this is for us. |
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JamesR
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« Reply #44 on: April 30, 2012, 03:21:27 PM » |
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...Masturbation is the one pleasure that makes everything to me feel better. And now I have to give it up? Well, they are called crosses (that you're suppose to be carrying)... I'm not being flippant. I'm in the same position as you, really. I'm just saying, it's not easy, but what are you gonna do? Some things are harder to deal with, some easier. I just tell myself to not excuse things, but also not to get down about them. "Be perfect" is a goal to shoot for, not an expectation that we will probably achieve at this very moment. (actually I would argue that we'll never achieve it, because we'll always be growing more perfect) Don't treat it like a non-issue, but also don't let it destroy your progress you are making. Also, use it as a reminder when you want to judge someone else. Maybe someone else's problem is just as difficult to overcome for them as this is for us. Wow thanks, that is some good advice. |
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"'Blessed are the peacemakers' For those are peacemakers in themselves who, in conquering and subjecting to reason all the motions of their souls and having their carnal desires tamed, have become in themselves a Kingdom of God."-St. Augustine of Hippo
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