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Author Topic: The "Born Again Experience"  (Read 2872 times) Average Rating: 0
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primuspilus
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« Reply #45 on: May 29, 2012, 11:11:28 AM »

Quote
He's not one of my 'heroes', and I haven't read him; but so many books refer to his beliefs that I have read about him a fair amount, and I get the impression he believed in total depravity, unconditional election, particular redemption, irresistible grace, and the eternal perseverance of the elect (or eternal security, whatever you wish to call it). If I am wrong, it would be no big deal for me, as he is not really part of my mental furniture
I'll hit this a piece at a time:

Quote
total depravity
This was in response to Pelagianism, sweeping the West. He went overboard concerning this. To read a moderation of the teaching, read some St. John Cassian.

Quote
unconditional election
He wasn't a Calvinist afterall  laugh laugh laugh

Quote
particular redemption
No he didn't. The elect as we know the term is of a different meaning in Greek and in Latin. It does not mean what Calvin tried to change the definition to.

Quote
irresistible grace
Read City of God, that'll put that one pretty much to bed....he did not believe in irresistible grace.

Quote
eternal security
I did some reading up on this, and I believe that the idea that St. Augustine believed this is again, a reaction to his attacks on Pelagianism.

PP

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« Reply #46 on: May 29, 2012, 05:56:40 PM »

Read City of God, that'll put that one pretty much to bed....[St Augustine] did not believe in irresistible grace.

Are you sure about this?  Please provide your textual evidence. 

I suspect that St Augustine did indeed believe in irresistible grace--understood not in terms of causality but in terms of desire and delight.  Does not the beloved find her lover irresistible?  This does not mean, though, that she is coerced in her surrender to her beloved.

In the Kingdom, all the saved will find the love of God irresistible! 
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jnorm888
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« Reply #47 on: May 30, 2012, 04:01:22 AM »

Quote
He's not one of my 'heroes', and I haven't read him; but so many books refer to his beliefs that I have read about him a fair amount, and I get the impression he believed in total depravity, unconditional election, particular redemption, irresistible grace, and the eternal perseverance of the elect (or eternal security, whatever you wish to call it). If I am wrong, it would be no big deal for me, as he is not really part of my mental furniture
I'll hit this a piece at a time:

Quote
total depravity
This was in response to Pelagianism, sweeping the West. He went overboard concerning this. To read a moderation of the teaching, read some St. John Cassian.

Quote
unconditional election
He wasn't a Calvinist afterall  laugh laugh laugh

Quote
particular redemption
No he didn't. The elect as we know the term is of a different meaning in Greek and in Latin. It does not mean what Calvin tried to change the definition to.

Quote
irresistible grace
Read City of God, that'll put that one pretty much to bed....he did not believe in irresistible grace.

Quote
eternal security
I did some reading up on this, and I believe that the idea that St. Augustine believed this is again, a reaction to his attacks on Pelagianism.

PP


Saint Augustine did teach Total Inability, Unconditional Election, Particular Atonement as well as Infallible Grace. His book, the City of God was written in his middle years. To see his views more clearly on the ones you denied him to teach, well, you would have to read his later works. From 417 A.D. to about 428 A.D.

He tends to flip flop from 412 A.D. to about 416A.D.

He is staunchly pro free will......etc. Pre 396 A.D. He is moderate in his views from 396 A.D. to about 412 A.D.

But over the years you can see him moving towards at least 4 out of the 5 points of Calvinism. Especially from the years dating from 417A.D. to about the time of his death, which was around 428 A.D.
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« Reply #48 on: May 30, 2012, 04:11:33 AM »

Read City of God, that'll put that one pretty much to bed....[St Augustine] did not believe in irresistible grace.

Are you sure about this?  Please provide your textual evidence. 

I suspect that St Augustine did indeed believe in irresistible grace--understood not in terms of causality but in terms of desire and delight.  Does not the beloved find her lover irresistible?  This does not mean, though, that she is coerced in her surrender to her beloved.

In the Kingdom, all the saved will find the love of God irresistible! 

He might be sure about what he said, but what he said was dead wrong! You are right about Saint Augustine's understanding of Infallible Grace as Desire and delight! The Calvinist interpretation of Infallible Grace in which they call Irresistible Grace is a development of the former for their determinism tends to be one of "choosing according to ones greatest desire at the moment".


They may not want to call it coerced, but I personally don't see a difference between coercion and being drugged or drunk off a love potion that you had no choice in choosing in the first place. It was just put in you and you have no other choice but to act accordingly.

And so they may not want to call the Augustinian version a coercion, I personally don't see a big difference between the two.
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« Reply #49 on: May 30, 2012, 11:00:02 AM »

Quote
Are you sure about this?  Please provide your textual evidence
When I read it, I get a feeling that everything concerning the city of men is done out of choice. One choosing to turn their back on God and His ways. There always seems to be a caveat of being able to turn around and repent. The very nature if irresistible grace makes that impossible.

Quote
I suspect that St Augustine did indeed believe in irresistible grace--understood not in terms of causality but in terms of desire and delight.  Does not the beloved find her lover irresistible?  This does not mean, though, that she is coerced in her surrender to her beloved.

In the Kingdom, all the saved will find the love of God irresistible! 
Forgive me father, but Im not referring to that, but to the Irresistible Grace as defined by Calvinism (which goes hand in hand with the "elect" that Calvinism also espouses. I just dont see how folks (including my former church) teach that Augustine believed in it in light of his other writings, especially in light of what he was addressing at the time.

PP
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Doubting Thomas
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« Reply #50 on: May 30, 2012, 11:49:17 AM »

I do recall reading in one of Augustine's works (the name escapes me) that not all the regenerate (ie 'born again') would have the gift of perserverence.  In other words, for Augustine, the 'elect' is not coextensive with the regenerate.
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« Reply #51 on: June 02, 2012, 03:15:26 AM »

I do recall reading in one of Augustine's works (the name escapes me) that not all the regenerate (ie 'born again') would have the gift of perserverence.  In other words, for Augustine, the 'elect' is not coextensive with the regenerate.

I could be wrong, but I think his two tier elect theory can be seen in one of his works from 396 A.D. He never retracted it or changed it, went deeper with it.......etc.
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"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #52 on: June 02, 2012, 03:16:05 AM »

Quote
Are you sure about this?  Please provide your textual evidence
When I read it, I get a feeling that everything concerning the city of men is done out of choice. One choosing to turn their back on God and His ways. There always seems to be a caveat of being able to turn around and repent. The very nature if irresistible grace makes that impossible.

Quote
I suspect that St Augustine did indeed believe in irresistible grace--understood not in terms of causality but in terms of desire and delight.  Does not the beloved find her lover irresistible?  This does not mean, though, that she is coerced in her surrender to her beloved.

In the Kingdom, all the saved will find the love of God irresistible! 
Forgive me father, but Im not referring to that, but to the Irresistible Grace as defined by Calvinism (which goes hand in hand with the "elect" that Calvinism also espouses. I just dont see how folks (including my former church) teach that Augustine believed in it in light of his other writings, especially in light of what he was addressing at the time.

PP

Read his later works!
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"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #53 on: June 18, 2012, 07:24:12 PM »

My understanding of Born Again is a spiritual awakening/conversion. Don't all Christians have this, regardless of individual fireworks or lack there of?
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« Reply #54 on: June 22, 2012, 04:13:14 AM »

My understanding of Born Again is a spiritual awakening/conversion. Don't all Christians have this, regardless of individual fireworks or lack there of?

Which is what I also said.
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primuspilus
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« Reply #55 on: June 22, 2012, 07:05:24 AM »

My understanding of Born Again is a spiritual awakening/conversion. Don't all Christians have this, regardless of individual fireworks or lack there of?

Which is what I also said.
Also, as I have said this experience is a totally different thing this side of the pond.

PP
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« Reply #56 on: June 22, 2012, 07:16:52 AM »

this experience is a totally different thing this side of the pond.

Are you referring to the church where I preached my first sermon?
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primuspilus
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« Reply #57 on: June 22, 2012, 07:53:26 AM »

this experience is a totally different thing this side of the pond.

Are you referring to the church where I preached my first sermon?
 Wink
If ony the pond of which I refer to were that small Smiley

PP
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« Reply #58 on: June 22, 2012, 08:56:34 AM »

My understanding of Born Again is a spiritual awakening/conversion. Don't all Christians have this, regardless of individual fireworks or lack there of?

Which is what I also said.

I have pointed this out in a couple posts already, and it seems to have been ignored, but to be "born again" is to be baptized.  The Lord was referring only to baptism when he said that man must be "born again".  Man is "born again" at baptism whether he is an infant or an adult at the time of baptism, and whether there is a conscious experience of one's rebirth and transformation at the time of baptism or not.  A man that is baptized, whether as an infant or an adult, may later fall into sin and negligence, and become completely estranged from God and cut off from the experience of His deifying grace.  At some point, that man may eventually have a kind of awakening or conviction that leads him to repentance.  When he thoroughly confesses his sins and sincerely repents of them his baptismal garments are made new, but at that point he has not be "born again" again.  To speak of any experience outside of baptism as being “born again” is a distortion of the words of Christ and the teachings of the Church since the time of Christ. 
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jnorm888
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« Reply #59 on: June 22, 2012, 09:41:44 AM »

My understanding of Born Again is a spiritual awakening/conversion. Don't all Christians have this, regardless of individual fireworks or lack there of?

Which is what I also said.

I have pointed this out in a couple posts already, and it seems to have been ignored, but to be "born again" is to be baptized.  The Lord was referring only to baptism when he said that man must be "born again".  Man is "born again" at baptism whether he is an infant or an adult at the time of baptism, and whether there is a conscious experience of one's rebirth and transformation at the time of baptism or not.  A man that is baptized, whether as an infant or an adult, may later fall into sin and negligence, and become completely estranged from God and cut off from the experience of His deifying grace.  At some point, that man may eventually have a kind of awakening or conviction that leads him to repentance.  When he thoroughly confesses his sins and sincerely repents of them his baptismal garments are made new, but at that point he has not be "born again" again.  To speak of any experience outside of baptism as being “born again” is a distortion of the words of Christ and the teachings of the Church since the time of Christ. 

A number of us went back and forth with David about this before. I think he knows what "we mean" by the term Born Again, but I think he was giving the evangelical protestant view.
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http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #60 on: June 22, 2012, 08:13:24 PM »

Has anyone posted this yet?

http://youtu.be/PHv4s_hYs4c

"Bible Interpretation 101: Zwingli's Razor".
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