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Author Topic: Judgement of God on the Cross...  (Read 837 times) Average Rating: 0
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Seafra
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« on: April 25, 2012, 03:01:21 PM »

Christ is Risen!

Hey all good news first June 3rd I will be baptized into the Coptic Church here in Atlanta!

Now i was in a discussion with a friend and i really got to a point of a loss of words and had to put it on hold. My problem is in understanding the Judgement of God. It is obvious that Orthodoxy teaches that the cross was necessary for our redemption and that the legalistic view that protestantism holds is there to an extent however I do not fully know the Orthodox view of what really took place. I would love me some good edumacation! Wink
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NicholasMyra
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« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2012, 03:04:49 PM »

Have you read the Epistle to the Hebrews? That's really going to help you out in this department.

I could give you some EO understandings of the atonement if you'd like, but that would probably be better addressed in a Faith Issues thread.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2012, 03:10:04 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

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« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2012, 04:02:14 PM »

LOVE Hebrews... i have been so indoctrinated by Protestant understanding od the need for the payment of our sin and Christ paying it for us that i really need some break down and what not :-p
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« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2012, 04:24:28 PM »

Congratulations and many years.   angel
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« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2012, 05:09:19 PM »

LOVE Hebrews... i have been so indoctrinated by Protestant understanding od the need for the payment of our sin and Christ paying it for us that i really need some break down and what not :-p
I offer this thought:

There is a debt that needs to be paid. However, the debt demanded by the Law, reconciled by sacrifice, and for atonement of sins, is a debt of righteousness, not a debt of punishment due.

The debt is the Man spoken of in Psalm 1. There was never such a righteous man, never a man who could fill up the Law, until Christ. He's the only one.

We see this in the 2 Philippians hymn:

..."Being found in appearance [literally: schema] as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.  For this reason also, God highly exalted Him..."

Here it says that God exalted Christ specifically BECAUSE he humbled himself and was obedient even unto death. That is, for his righteousness, not his "propitiation" (a terrible meaningless translation of the original word) or his punishment-fulfilling.

Regarding the Epistle to the Hebrews, the Eastern Orthodox Bible's new translation of Hebrews is fantastic. It's almost completely stripped down and re-built around the Orthodox understanding of sacrifice and atonement, in my opinion. I think it would be just as useful for non-Chalcedonians; as far as I know it does not contain any Chalcedon-specific material anyway.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2012, 05:16:31 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
Seafra
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« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2012, 05:22:25 PM »

LOVE Hebrews... i have been so indoctrinated by Protestant understanding od the need for the payment of our sin and Christ paying it for us that i really need some break down and what not :-p
I offer this thought:

There is a debt that needs to be paid. However, the debt demanded by the Law, reconciled by sacrifice, and for atonement of sins, is a debt of righteousness, not a debt of punishment due.

The debt is the Man spoken of in Psalm 1. There was never such a righteous man, never a man who could fill up the Law, until Christ. He's the only one.

We see this in the 2 Philippians hymn:

..."Being found in appearance [literally: schema] as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.  For this reason also, God highly exalted Him..."

Here it says that God exalted Christ specifically BECAUSE he humbled himself and was obedient even unto death. That is, for his righteousness, not his "propitiation" (a terrible meaningless translation of the original word) or his punishment-fulfilling.

Regarding the Epistle to the Hebrews, the Eastern Orthodox Bible's new translation of Hebrews is fantastic. It's almost completely stripped down and re-built around the Orthodox understanding of sacrifice and atonement, in my opinion. I think it would be just as useful for non-Chalcedonians; as far as I know it does not contain any Chalcedon-specific material anyway.
would that be in the Orthodox Study Bible? I own that so i would make that my new reading lol
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NicholasMyra
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« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2012, 05:27:48 PM »

would that be in the Orthodox Study Bible? I own that so i would make that my new reading lol
Unfortunately not, it's this one: http://www.orthodoxanswers.org/eob/

You can get it as an ebook here: http://www.lulu.com/shop/editor-cleenewerck/new-testament-eob-the-easterngreek-orthodox-bible/ebook/product-18731463.html

Or I could probably, uh, find a way to send the Hebrews portion to you.
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Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
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« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2012, 06:10:58 PM »

ah,, yeah i been trying to get them to put it on kindle... they siad they have plans to as SOME point...  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2012, 01:20:17 AM »

ah,, yeah i been trying to get them to put it on kindle... they siad they have plans to as SOME point...  Roll Eyes
Which kindle do you have? Some can do PDF's.

I actually shelled out for the soft cover. For a translation geek, it's totally worth it. It also has some great NeoPatristic articles in the back.

My only complaints are that it's a study bible (that is, the language is not poetic or beautiful, but that's to be expected) and they went with "Kingdom of God" instead of "Reign of God" even though in the introductory material they favor Reign.

Have you read "On the Incarnation of the Word of God"? That's sort of the go-to for Alexandrian atonement theory.

I would just like to add that because Christ was like us in all ways except for sin, the only way for him to enter fully into our reality, to be "completely" like us, was to become curse itself (Galatians 3:13). And he did that by being cursed according to the law by being hung on the tree of the cross, and betrayed by his own people into the hands of gentiles.

"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become Curse for us-- for it is written, 'CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE (Deuteronomy 21:23)."
« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 01:27:14 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
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« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2012, 01:24:30 AM »

I don't get the issue with kingdom v. reign.

Kingdom means the reign of a king, doesn't it?
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« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2012, 01:27:43 AM »

I don't get the issue with kingdom v. reign.

Kingdom means the reign of a king, doesn't it?
In English, "Kingdom" implies the domain ruled, rather than the rule itself. Or so goes the argument of Fr. Romanides. So the distinction here is "created ruled place" versus "uncreated ruling power". I think the word may be different in liturgical use, but I'm not sure. When the priest says "It is meet and right to praise You... in every place of Your dominion", what is the word for dominion?

His argument, and the Orthodox position as far as I've seen, is that Peter beholds the Reign of God directly after Christ says that some will see the Reign of God before they die--- that is, at the Transfiguration.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 01:30:47 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

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« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2012, 01:31:28 AM »

I don't get the issue with kingdom v. reign.

Kingdom means the reign of a king, doesn't it?
In English, "Kingdom" implies the domain ruled, rather than the rule itself. Or so goes the argument of Fr. Romanides.

Yeah, no. I don't mean any disrespect to Father John, but that is just not true.

I will concede that the meaning of the rule itself is a secondary one in modern English and maybe reign should be preferred on that basis.

I have seen the point you have made in other threads (is it the same as Father John's?) re it being important to understand that the scriptural references to the kingdom of God should be understood as references to his reign and rule. I think it is a good point, so please forgive me my nitpicking.
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« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2012, 01:39:42 AM »

I don't get the issue with kingdom v. reign.

Kingdom means the reign of a king, doesn't it?
In English, "Kingdom" implies the domain ruled, rather than the rule itself. Or so goes the argument of Fr. Romanides.

Yeah, no. I don't mean any disrespect to Father John, but that is just not true.

I will concede that the meaning of the rule itself is a secondary one in modern English and maybe reign should be preferred on that basis.

I have seen the point you have made in other threads (is it the same as Father John's?) re it being important to understand that the scriptural references to the kingdom of God should be understood as references to his reign and rule. I think it is a good point, so please forgive me my nitpicking.

Here is the text from Fr. Romanides I'm referencing:

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/10/term-kingdom-of-god-is-not-in-new.html

(+ 10 Isa points for "Vaticanians")

I think he was referring to popular usage in Christianity, rather than possible dictionary definitions.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 01:40:37 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

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« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2012, 01:43:11 AM »

When the priest says "It is meet and right to praise You... in every place of Your dominion", what is the word for dominion?

Probably "kratos", but I'll just check now before posting this ...

Okay, just checked: it's "dhespoteias".
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« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2012, 01:57:36 AM »

When the priest says "It is meet and right to praise You... in every place of Your dominion", what is the word for dominion?

Probably "kratos", but I'll just check now before posting this ...

Okay, just checked: it's "dhespoteias".
Wow. So the domain of a lord... that's awesome.

So in the liturgy, then, basileia and dhespoteias are distinguished. I know there's the "and Thine is the kratos/basileia/dynamis/dhoxa", which makes a ton of distinctions.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 01:59:21 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
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« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2012, 02:12:13 AM »

When the priest says "It is meet and right to praise You... in every place of Your dominion", what is the word for dominion?

Probably "kratos", but I'll just check now before posting this ...

Okay, just checked: it's "dhespoteias".
Wow. So the domain of a lord... that's awesome.

So in the liturgy, then, basileia and dhespoteias are distinguished. I know there's the "and Thine is the kratos/basileia/dynamis/dhoxa", which makes a ton of distinctions.

I am no expert, but I get the sense that the presence of all these nouns (often piled up one on top of the other in the liturgy), is not meant to serve to make distinctions, but rather to emphasise that all power and glory is God's and that he reigns in all places, at all times. I don't see that there is any relevant difference between kratos/vasileia/dhespoteias most of the time ...
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« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2012, 02:31:48 AM »

When the priest says "It is meet and right to praise You... in every place of Your dominion", what is the word for dominion?

Probably "kratos", but I'll just check now before posting this ...

Okay, just checked: it's "dhespoteias".
Wow. So the domain of a lord... that's awesome.

So in the liturgy, then, basileia and dhespoteias are distinguished. I know there's the "and Thine is the kratos/basileia/dynamis/dhoxa", which makes a ton of distinctions.

I am no expert, but I get the sense that the presence of all these nouns (often piled up one on top of the other in the liturgy), is not meant to serve to make distinctions, but rather to emphasise that all power and glory is God's and that he reigns in all places, at all times. I don't see that there is any relevant difference between kratos/vasileia/dhespoteias most of the time ...
I get ya.
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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
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« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2012, 05:11:28 AM »

I have Kindle Fire, on the incarnation is on the top of my list but i skipped it to get H.H. "have you seen the one I love" last time i bought a book
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« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2012, 05:18:43 AM »

hi seafra, I do not have enough time now to address  your initial question properly, however here is the on the incarnation

http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/theology/incarnation_st_athanasius.pdf .
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« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2012, 05:20:07 AM »

thanks!
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« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2012, 09:03:47 AM »

on the incarnation is on the top of my list but i skipped it

You should read it.

Some food for thought, also read Romans 6 and 1 Corinthians 15. The wages of sin is death (which we are held subject to both through our inherited nature and our own personal sins), the last enemy is death, and rarely if ever is Christ's death preached or mentioned without the message of His resurrection. This is the problem that I have with the way I've heard some Protestants preach salvation - salvation is fully accomplished with Jesus dieing on the cross and the resurrection is somewhere between a proof that Jesus really is the Messiah and an example of how our resurrection will be (what I mean to say is I get the impression that they don't see the resurrection as actually having a part in the accomplishment of salvation). From the Protestant "you can go free because God punished Jesus by killng Him for what you did instead of sending you to hell" message, the resurrection doesn't play a part in "getting you out of hell", it only bears witness that Jesus didn't deserve to die.
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And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2012, 09:44:49 PM »

well i just bought it lol now ill have to scrap up .99 for my drink tomorrow :-p
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