Paschal candle--type and color

[scamandrius]

Hey, all

For years, my parish priest has always lit a white candle for the Paschal candle and used this throughout the 40 days while he censes and given the Paschal blessing at the end of Vespers and Divine LIturgy.  This year, however, he purchased a three bar cross which holds three candles and has used this for the paschal blessing.

I admit I'm pretty ignorant about this particular custom.  So, my questions:  Is this three bar cross three candle typical of slavic churches?  Is the white candle typical of Greek churches?  If it is a slavic class, I, again, am getting pretty fed up with all the slavic influences coming into Greek or Arabic churches and giving way to the coming slavic hegemony. 

[Michał Kalina]

I've seen a three candle holder - cross. Normal candles are usually used but I've seen the red ones once.

[Punch]

Our priest uses a single candle with a red wax catcher.  The candle is natural beeswax color.  I think this is another "pious custom" issue rather than anything from the Typikon.

[LizaSymonenko]

For Pascha our priest (Ukrainian) uses the a trikiri (holder with 3 candles).

Our church usually tries to stick with beeswax candles - more natural and pure.

[admiralnick]

For Pascha our priest (Ukrainian) uses the a trikiri (holder with 3 candles).

Our church usually tries to stick with beeswax candles - more natural and pure.

I was always under the impression that trikiri was reserved for a bishop's use. I was under the impression that there was a different name for the 3-bar Paschal candle.

-Nick

[LizaSymonenko]

Yeah...there probably is....and I just typed without thinking.

I think it's called the "Paschal three-candle holder".  

[LizaSymonenko]

This is what it looks like....

[Michał Kalina]

I was always under the impression that trikiri was reserved for a bishop's use. I was under the impression that there was a different name for the 3-bar Paschal candle.

-Nick

Unless the Presbyter is given a title of Archpresbryter which enables him to use dikirion and trikirion for blessings (it's propably only the PAOC thing).

[age234]

At my parish, which is comprised of mostly Arabs, my priest uses a single large white candle (about 30 inches in length and similar thickness of a soda can).

[Michał Kalina]

BTW: the wooden version:

[biro]

I was watching today, and I think the candle had just a ribbon around it and possibly some kind of wax catcher.

[akimori makoto]

I admit I'm pretty ignorant about this particular custom.  So, my questions:  Is this three bar cross three candle typical of slavic churches?

I suspect so.

Is the white candle typical of Greek churches?

In my experience, yes, for what it's worth.

If it is a slavic class, I, again, am getting pretty fed up with all the slavic influences coming into Greek or Arabic churches and giving way to the coming slavic hegemony.

I can appreciate your sense of disquiet.

[podkarpatska]

This is what it looks like....

I am a Slav and I never saw such a thing...the priest always used a white candle...except for last year when our priest came back from pilgrimage to the Holy Land with a souvenir from the Holy Sepulchre...it was thirty three beeswax candles banded together..He used it and he looked the Statue of Liberty and almost caught on fire. This year - back to white candle! 

[LBK]

This is what it looks like....

I am a Slav and I never saw such a thing...the priest always used a white candle...except for last year when our priest came back from pilgrimage to the Holy Land with a souvenir from the Holy Sepulchre...it was thirty three beeswax candles banded together..He used it and he looked the Statue of Liberty and almost caught on fire. This year - back to white candle! 

All the Slavic churches in the city where I live use these three-candle crosses. Priests in Greek churches here use either a single candle, or three candles tied together so that two candles form an X-shape, with the third being vertical.

[scamandrius]

This is what it looks like....

That's EXACTLY what our priest got.

[Benjamin the Red]

Our parish uses this, and I've always associated it with the Slavic tradition.

All the service books I've read call this the "Paschal trikirion."

[Father H]

The paschal trikirion in question (the one in the picture two posts above) is obviously slavic, as it has the slavonic lettering (may have been a gift from someone).  That being said, the tradition of the single candle exists both in Slavic and Greek tradition and so does the Paschal Trikiri.   There is also the tradition of intertwined (braided) 3 candles, 9 candles (3x3), 33 "side-stacked" candles, among other things under the sun.  The point is that triple (of various designs), thick single, side stacked and braided candles are all used by all traditions.  Among the Slavs Carpies tend to use single, Ukrainians and Russians triple.  Romanians are various, some regions preferring one and some preferring the other.  The Greeks have "all of the above."  Some of the triple candle variety have stands others do not.  Some have crosses attached others do not.  As Bishop Jerome of ROCOR says, there are 33 ways of doing things in Orthodoxy and 33 ways of doing the 33 ways (maybe he said 17, but you get the point).   

[Orthodox11]

If it is a slavic class, I, again, am getting pretty fed up with all the slavic influences coming into Greek or Arabic churches and giving way to the coming slavic hegemony. 

I have to say I sympathise with you. In the cases where Slavic practice represents an older retention of the Byzantine rite, I don't have any problem with it, but I too am getting fairly tired of the idea that all things Russian are "right" and the eagerness of some in the Greco-Arab churches to unquestioningly adopt them as such.

[akimori makoto]

If it is a slavic class, I, again, am getting pretty fed up with all the slavic influences coming into Greek or Arabic churches and giving way to the coming slavic hegemony. 

I have to say I sympathise with you. In the cases where Slavic practice represents an older retention of the Byzantine rite, I don't have any problem with it, but I too am getting fairly tired of the idea that all things Russian are "right" and the eagerness of some in the Greco-Arab churches to unquestioningly adopt them as such.

Yeah, like the prayer of the third hour.

[Alpo]

If it is a slavic class, I, again, am getting pretty fed up with all the slavic influences coming into Greek or Arabic churches and giving way to the coming slavic hegemony.  

I have to say I sympathise with you. In the cases where Slavic practice represents an older retention of the Byzantine rite, I don't have any problem with it, but I too am getting fairly tired of the idea that all things Russian are "right" and the eagerness of some in the Greco-Arab churches to unquestioningly adopt them as such.

I would understand that if we were talking about Greece, Antioch or some other customarily Greek area but what's wrong with it in diaspora?

[Orthodox11]

I would understand that if we were talking about Greece, Antioch or some other customarily Greek area but what's wrong with it in diaspora?

What's right about it? It's the "Russian is more correct" attitude behind it that bothers me.

[Alpo]

I would understand that if we were talking about Greece, Antioch or some other customarily Greek area but what's wrong with it in diaspora?

What's right about it?

*shrugs*

I just thought that since there isn't really any traditional practice for most of the Western Europe and Americas mixing of different Byzantine traditions isn't necessarily that wrong.

It's the "Russian is more correct" attitude behind it that bothers me.

Well that is a whole another issue. That would bother me too.

[age234]

If it is a slavic class, I, again, am getting pretty fed up with all the slavic influences coming into Greek or Arabic churches and giving way to the coming slavic hegemony. 

I have to say I sympathise with you. In the cases where Slavic practice represents an older retention of the Byzantine rite, I don't have any problem with it, but I too am getting fairly tired of the idea that all things Russian are "right" and the eagerness of some in the Greco-Arab churches to unquestioningly adopt them as such.

Yeah, like the prayer of the third hour.

I even know Russian priests who think that tradition is bizarre.

[LizaSymonenko]

What tradition?  The 3 candles?  Why is it bizarre? 

[podkarpatska]

The paschal trikirion in question (the one in the picture two posts above) is obviously slavic, as it has the slavonic lettering (may have been a gift from someone).  That being said, the tradition of the single candle exists both in Slavic and Greek tradition and so does the Paschal Trikiri.   There is also the tradition of intertwined (braided) 3 candles, 9 candles (3x3), 33 "side-stacked" candles, among other things under the sun.  The point is that triple (of various designs), thick single, side stacked and braided candles are all used by all traditions.  Among the Slavs Carpies tend to use single, Ukrainians and Russians triple.  Romanians are various, some regions preferring one and some preferring the other.  The Greeks have "all of the above."  Some of the triple candle variety have stands others do not.  Some have crosses attached others do not.  As Bishop Jerome of ROCOR says, there are 33 ways of doing things in Orthodoxy and 33 ways of doing the 33 ways (maybe he said 17, but you get the point).   

If the internet teaches us anything, it is that within our beloved Orthodox world there are so many varied and beautiful traditions. The times when one could say, this is Orthodox or that is MORE Orthodox than what do should be behind us.This little bit of this and a little bit of that has created confusion and chaos in the minds of many souls and parishes. Bishop Jerome was certainly on the money with that comment!

My brother, who is a priest,  came back from the Holy Land last year with one of those 33 side-stacked candles. He was so excited he could hardly wait for Matins. It was bright - like the Statue of Liberty! When we went outside, a gust shot up and nearly caught him and the deacon on fire! My sister-in-law laid down the law and this year - voila - back to one candle!

[age234]

What tradition?  The 3 candles?  Why is it bizarre? 

No, the insertion of the prayer of the third hour at the Epiklesis. Which is off-topic, sorry. I was responding to akimori's post.

(The priest does say the prayer of course, as it is the tradition received.  But liturgically it's an odd thing.)

[LizaSymonenko]

Got it. 

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