Author Topic: DL service book with transliterated Greek?  (Read 1387 times)

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Offline Eugenio

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DL service book with transliterated Greek?
« on: April 23, 2012, 11:27:10 AM »
Hello, Christos Anesti!

I am a convert who attends a Greek Orthodox Church that has a large percentage of converts who do not know (and who cannot read) the Greek language. I would like to find a liturgy book that has the Greek transliteration included so that non-Greek speaders can pronounce Greek.

I have seen a "Green book" that has music included but I am looking for a book that does not include any musical notation within - just a transliteration (and an English translation, of course). Would anyone in this forum know of a source like this?

Offline jmbejdl

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Re: DL service book with transliterated Greek?
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2012, 11:45:53 AM »
I remember using a book like that when we used to attend a Greek parish, so I know they exist but I couldn't tell you any more (we're talking 10 years ago now) exactly who the publisher was. I'd assume that it was published by the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Thyateira and Great Britain. I'm pretty sure someone who still attends a Greek parish will be able to help. Unfortunately I can't do much than confirm that such a book exists.

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Offline scamandrius

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Re: DL service book with transliterated Greek?
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2012, 12:28:48 PM »
It's really not too hard to learn and read the Greek alphabet. After all, the Roman alphabet is derived from it.  So, it shouldn't be too much for you to take it up.  It will be much more helpful and illuminating than reading transliterated characters (which are never done consistently).
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Offline Eugenio

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Re: DL service book with transliterated Greek?
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2012, 12:42:35 PM »
@Scamandrius - I don't want a service book for myself; I would like to provide them to visitors or new catechumens at our church. I took 2 years of Ancient Greek and was briefly tutored in Modern Greek. I would just like our church service (which at time can be up to 50% in Greek) to be less alienating to new, potential, non-Greek converts.

Offline FormerReformer

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Re: DL service book with transliterated Greek?
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2012, 12:52:26 PM »
It's really not too hard to learn and read the Greek alphabet. After all, the Roman alphabet is derived from it.  So, it shouldn't be too much for you to take it up.  It will be much more helpful and illuminating than reading transliterated characters (which are never done consistently).

The hard part is learning to read the Greek words out loud with proper pronunciation- especially if you have years of Erasmian to undo!
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Offline Eugenio

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Re: DL service book with transliterated Greek?
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2012, 03:00:08 PM »
@FormerReformer - I know what you mean about the Erasmian!  ;D
You almost have to learn church pronounciation from a native speaker. You cannot pick up from a book that "EU" is now pronounced "eff" or the Gamma is pronounced either as a "y" or as a "gh" sound; or that Delta is actually a "th". And several vowels (Y, H) have morphed into an "ee" sound. This is why just writing out a transliteration makes much more sense to encourage non-native speakers who wish to say the Greek responses in the liturgy but who cannot/do not want to learn the language.

Offline biro

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Re: DL service book with transliterated Greek?
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2012, 04:32:46 PM »
This is a pretty good edition. I think it has what you are interested in:

http://www.light-n-life.com/shopping/order_product.asp?ProductNum=DZLI930

You may want to ask at a nearby parish office. Sometimes the church's little book shop will have one. Good luck!  :)
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: DL service book with transliterated Greek?
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2012, 04:41:35 PM »
@Scamandrius - I don't want a service book for myself; I would like to provide them to visitors or new catechumens at our church. I took 2 years of Ancient Greek and was briefly tutored in Modern Greek. I would just like our church service (which at time can be up to 50% in Greek) to be less alienating to new, potential, non-Greek converts.

Less alienating?  You mean "less Greek."  I know that I'm probably in the minority opinion on this, but why shouldn't a Greek church keep its Greek language, either in full or in part?  And besides, a person converts for the fullness of the faith, not for the language. If language is such a big deal, then they are free to go to an OCA or Antiochian parish where English is far more common.
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Offline Eugenio

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Re: DL service book with transliterated Greek?
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2012, 05:30:47 PM »
Scamandrius wrote:

"Less alienating?  You mean "less Greek."

Do you not think it is alienating to ask the congregation to respond in another language but then not provide sufficient materials so that they can do so?

You also asked:
"but why shouldn't a Greek church keep its Greek language, either in full or in part?"

I'm not saying they shouldn't, Scamandrius. I'm saying they should provide transliterated materials so that non-Greek speakers can participate in the liturgy even if they don't know the language.

"If language is such a big deal, then they are free to go to an OCA or Antiochian parish where English is far more common."

You are fortunate enough to live in a city where those are options. I do not. There are many communities across the U.S. and even in the Midwest where the Greek church is the only Orthodox church in town.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2012, 05:32:20 PM by Eugenio »

Offline Eugenio

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Re: DL service book with transliterated Greek?
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2012, 05:35:21 PM »
@biro - The Kevin Lawrence book that you referenced is an excellent source.

However, the transliteration in it is provided within a musical notation. The problem at my church is that we have used our own music for the last 60+ years in a largely oral chanting tradition. So any source with musical notations will reference music we do not use.

For that reason, I'm looking for a source book with a Latin-alphabet transliteration but no music.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2012, 05:35:47 PM by Eugenio »

Offline akimori makoto

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Re: DL service book with transliterated Greek?
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2012, 05:53:24 PM »
@Scamandrius - I don't want a service book for myself; I would like to provide them to visitors or new catechumens at our church. I took 2 years of Ancient Greek and was briefly tutored in Modern Greek. I would just like our church service (which at time can be up to 50% in Greek) to be less alienating to new, potential, non-Greek converts.

Less alienating?  You mean "less Greek."  I know that I'm probably in the minority opinion on this, but why shouldn't a Greek church keep its Greek language, either in full or in part?  And besides, a person converts for the fullness of the faith, not for the language. If language is such a big deal, then they are free to go to an OCA or Antiochian parish where English is far more common.

There is not a single English-only parish in Sydney.

Would that context change your analysis?
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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: DL service book with transliterated Greek?
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2012, 06:10:45 PM »
For that reason, I'm looking for a source book with a Latin-alphabet transliteration but no music.

Once you know the alphabet, and a few pronunciation rules, Greek is actually very easy to read. Inquirers will find it much more helpful to spend a little bit of time memorizing the alphabet than spending weeks using a transliteration using characters that can't properly reproduce the sounds you're trying to make. There are some long tongue-twisters in Greek, especially in the Psalms, but they're just as awkward to pronounce when reading them in transliteration.

A little laminated card with the Creed and our Father transliterated might be worth doing, but I don't see the benefit of an entire service book. Printing pronunciation guides in the Greek-English versions would be good though.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2012, 06:26:01 PM by Orthodox11 »