OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 16, 2014, 07:34:31 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Memorial Services on behalf of the dead  (Read 1409 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
HKelley
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 11


OC.net


« on: October 21, 2004, 11:25:13 AM »

I would like to the instruction regarding performing Memorial Services on behalf of the dead.  Apart from II Maccabees (12:43) speaking to the issue, where else might I find that this tradition was still carried on by the church?

Also would like to understand that if Memorial Services for the Dead is practiced in Orthodoxy, how is the teaching of Roman Catholicism regarding purgatory and indulgences condemned?

Thanks for your insights on this topic.

Grace
Logged
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2004, 10:53:15 PM »

Hi HKelley,
We're not ignoring your request, but trying to decide whether to start this whole topic anew or refer you to the boards and our past threads dealing with this (after we locate them).

Demetri
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Arystarcus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 836


« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2004, 02:19:54 AM »

Quote
how is the teaching of Roman Catholicism regarding purgatory and indulgences condemned?

Grace,

I believe that these things are condemned because the idea of a third place where the dead rest until the Great and Final Judgement of Christ is foreign to early Christian teachings and is not mentioned in any of the Ecumenical councils, not any of the Church Fathers.

Without the idea of indulgences, then purgatory would make no sense, to be honest with you.

When I had given much thought to becoming a Roman, then Byzantine Catholic, I grappled with these things myself and I could never comprehend the idea that the merits of the saints, or saying certain prayers, attending Masses, making a confession and going to a place of pilgrimage, etc., are stored up in a "bank" and people are able to make a withdrawl from this "bank" of merits and apply these merits to the poor souls in purgatory and in so doing ease their suffering and to hopefully release them from purgatory.

Perhaps I am not getting the idea, or never had, but this is how I always understood it. Maybe one our kind forum members who is of the Roman Catholic background could clarify this, in case I have miscontrued anything.

Although the following has been taken from a site of a more "traditionalist" point of view, I think it explains the differences very well in only two paragraphs.

Quote
The Latins by this time had come to regard heaven and hell as somehow "finished" and "absolute," and those in them as already possessing the fullness of the state they will have after the Last Judgment; thus, there is no need to pray for those in heaven (whose lot is already perfect) or those in hell (for they can never be delivered or cleansed from sin). But since many of the faithful die in a "middle" state—not perfect enough for heaven, but not evil enough for hell—the logic of the Latin arguments required a third place of cleansing (''purgatory"), where even those whose sins had already been forgiven had to be punished or give "satisfaction" for their sins before being sufficiently cleansed to enter heaven. These legalistic arguments of a purely human "justice" (which actually deny God's supreme goodness and love of mankind) the Latins proceeded to support by literalistic interpretations of certain Patristic texts and various visions; almost all of these interpretations are quite contrived and arbitrary, because not even the ancient Latin Fathers spoke of such a place as "purgatory," but only of the "cleansing" from sins after death, which some of them referred to (probably allegorically) as by "fire."

In the Orthodox doctrine, on the other hand, which St. Mark teaches, the faithful who have died with small sins unconfessed, or who have not brought forth fruits of repentance for sins they have confessed, are cleansed of these sins either in the trial of death itself with its fear, or after death, when they are confined (but not permanently) in hell, by the prayers and Liturgies of the Church and good deeds performed for them by the faithful. Even sinners destined for eternal torment can be given a certain relief from their torment in hell by these means also. There is no fire tormenting sinners now, however, either in hell (for the eternal fire will begin to torment them only after the Last Judgment), or much less in any third place like "purgatory"; all visions of fire which are seen by men are as it were images or prophecies of what will be in the future age. All forgiveness of sins after death comes solely from the goodness of God, which extends even to those in hell, with the cooperation of the prayers of men, and no "payment" or "satisfaction" is due for sins which have been forgiven.

The above was taken from this link: http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/death/stmark_purg.aspx

Please also check out the following websites:

http://www.stjohndc.org/Homilies/9611a.htm

http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Q-and-A_OLD/Indulgences.html

Hope that this has been of some help to you and may God bless you and increase your faith.

In Christ,
Aaron
Logged
Arystarcus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 836


« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2004, 02:26:52 AM »

I also found this as well:

Quote
Some interesting thoughts on why we pray for the dead

by Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

"Many are dismayed at the thought of praying for the dead. Can the destiny of the dead be changed if one prays for them?"

If you believe that prayers for the living are a help to them, why should you not pray for the dead? Life is one, for as St. Luke says: "He is not the God of the dead but of the living"(20:38). Death is not the end but a stage in the destiny of man, and this destiny is not petrified at the moment of death. The love which our prayer expresses cannot be in vain; if love had power on earth and had no power after death it would tragically contradict the word of scripture that love is as strong as death (Song 8: 6) and the experience of the Church that love is more powerful than death, because Christ has defeated death in his love for mankind.

It is an error to think that man s connection with love on earth ends with his death. In the course of one’s life one sows seeds. These seeds develop in the souls of other men and affect their destiny. The words written or spoken that change a human life or the destiny of mankind, as the words of preachers, philosophers, poets, or politicians, remain their authors responsibility, not only for evil but also for good; the authors destiny is bound to be affected by the way they have influenced those living after them. The life of every person continues to have repercussions until the last judgement, and man’s eternal and final destiny is determined not only by the short space of time he has lived on this earth but also by the results of his life by its good or evil consequences. Those who have received seed sown as in fertile ground, can influence the destiny of the departed by prayerfully beseeching God to bless the man who has transformed their lives, given a meaning to their existence. In turning to God in an act of enduring love, faithfulness and gratitude, they enter this eternal kingdom which transcends the limits of time, and they can influence the destiny and the situation of the departed. We do ask him merely to forgive a man in spite of what he has done but to bless him BECAUSE OF THE GOOD HE HAS DONE, to which other lives bear witness.

from Living Prayer


Taken from: http://www.stjohndc.org/stjohndc/English/Homilies/Pray-for-Dead-Bloom.htm

In Christ,
Aaron
Logged
Shiloah
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Heb.11:1
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 241


www.balamand.edu.lb/ th...JoTheklaCan.htm


WWW
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2004, 07:32:41 AM »

Thanks, Arystarcus, for the quotes. I think they are very explicit and helpful. If I remember right I had asked a question in this regard myself a while back but it must not have been the right time for those answers.

There is so much comfort in the teachings of Christ and His Church! Glory to God!
Logged

"God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ" 2.Cor.4:6

"One thing is education: that we learn how to love God. "
icxn
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 251


« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2004, 08:24:52 AM »

Concerning purgatory see also:

http://www.pelagia.org/htm/b24.en.life_after_death.05.htm
Logged
Arystarcus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 836


« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2004, 04:37:26 PM »

Quote
Thanks, Arystarcus, for the quotes.

You're most welcome.  Cheesy

Quote
There is so much comfort in the teachings of Christ and His Church!

Amen to that, I realize that more and more as time goes by and with each passing day.  Smiley

Quote
Glory to God!

Glory Forever!!!

In Christ,
Aaron
Logged
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,411



« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2004, 05:03:12 PM »

I believe that these things are condemned because the idea of a third place where the dead rest until the Great and Final Judgement of Christ is foreign to early Christian teachings and is not mentioned in any of the Ecumenical councils, not any of the Church Fathers.

Well, I'm looking in the Catholic Encyclopedia article, and following what it says, the Catholic Church does not teach Purgatory as a "place" per se. Also, seeing as how they can cite Gregory of Nyssa as to a 'purging fire', the idea is clearly ancient, even if some of the stereotypical RC notions about it may not be.

Now, indulgences-- being a Protestant  Cool of course I have to say that they're bogonic.  Grin
« Last Edit: October 22, 2004, 05:06:27 PM by Keble » Logged
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,444


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2004, 05:40:24 PM »

As one poster has said, we have addressed this multiple times on this board.  Please find one of the older threads and comment there if necessary.

Smiley

Anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodo
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.055 seconds with 37 queries.