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Author Topic: Interesting happenings in Canada (UOCC and Patriarch Filaret)  (Read 5181 times) Average Rating: 0
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ialmisry
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« Reply #45 on: April 25, 2012, 11:08:04 AM »

We don't need an Estonian situation in Estonia, let alone spreading it to Ukraine.
We do need the Ukrainian people to become canonical
they did that 1946-1989.  People complain about that now.

They are free to go and come as they want.  Are we to restrict that now?

not only those who are in the UOC-MP. Leaving millions of people outside of the canonical church is irresponsible

feeding Phanariot delusions is irresponsible, and feeding UAOC delusions is cruel.

and I plead for being generously economic in finding a solution which would at least make them all canonical
the alleged KP would be better off fermenting a critical mass in the UOC.

before they join Rome.
Those who are going to be seduced by the Vatican are going to be seduced.  The "KP" and UAOC do perform a service exposing the claims of the UGCC.

Let us please face the reality that many Ukrainians will never accept submission to Moscow.
and many will not leave her, and not just the Russian Ukrainians: the Ruthenians/Rusyn/Carpatho-Russians nearly unanimously side with the UOC over both the "KP" and "UAOC." (of course, one reason is that Kiev is closer than Moscow  Wink).  And they have turned their back to the Vatican, though they are closest in distance from it.

Come on now, to  make that claim about the Greek Catholics is as disingenuous as the Roman claim that all of the peasants in what is now Ukraine, southern Poland, Slovakia etc willingly became in union with the Pope following Brest and Uzghrod. I would argue with you that for those Ukrainians who worshipped in the same churches with mostly the same priests for that period (and many with their proverbial 'fingers' crossed ) were no more canonical then than they are today. To make that claim is to place form over substance and is an argument more suited to a Roman apologist. You also know that their 'zeal' for Rome is more of a nationalistic shield which they envision protects them from the 'mojo' of the Muscovites rather than anything more sinister. The old 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' mentality.
indeed, which is why the Soviets, after the experience of interwar Poland and its concordant with the Vatican, found such a fertile field of recruitment in the former southeast corner of the Polish Republic.  The progress Back to Orthodoxy for nearly a century in Transcarpatia made it an even more fertile field.  Moscow proved a better master than neighboring Poles, Ukrainians, Slovaks and Hungarians.
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« Reply #46 on: April 25, 2012, 11:17:47 AM »

We don't need an Estonian situation in Estonia, let alone spreading it to Ukraine.
We do need the Ukrainian people to become canonical
they did that 1946-1989.  People complain about that now.

They are free to go and come as they want.  Are we to restrict that now?

not only those who are in the UOC-MP. Leaving millions of people outside of the canonical church is irresponsible

feeding Phanariot delusions is irresponsible, and feeding UAOC delusions is cruel.

and I plead for being generously economic in finding a solution which would at least make them all canonical
the alleged KP would be better off fermenting a critical mass in the UOC.

before they join Rome.
Those who are going to be seduced by the Vatican are going to be seduced.  The "KP" and UAOC do perform a service exposing the claims of the UGCC.

Let us please face the reality that many Ukrainians will never accept submission to Moscow.
and many will not leave her, and not just the Russian Ukrainians: the Ruthenians/Rusyn/Carpatho-Russians nearly unanimously side with the UOC over both the "KP" and "UAOC." (of course, one reason is that Kiev is closer than Moscow  Wink).  And they have turned their back to the Vatican, though they are closest in distance from it.

Come on now, to  make that claim about the Greek Catholics is as disingenuous as the Roman claim that all of the peasants in what is now Ukraine, southern Poland, Slovakia etc willingly became in union with the Pope following Brest and Uzghrod. I would argue with you that for those Ukrainians who worshipped in the same churches with mostly the same priests for that period (and many with their proverbial 'fingers' crossed ) were no more canonical then than they are today. To make that claim is to place form over substance and is an argument more suited to a Roman apologist. You also know that their 'zeal' for Rome is more of a nationalistic shield which they envision protects them from the 'mojo' of the Muscovites rather than anything more sinister. The old 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' mentality.
indeed, which is why the Soviets, after the experience of interwar Poland and its concordant with the Vatican, found such a fertile field of recruitment in the former southeast corner of the Polish Republic.  The progress Back to Orthodoxy for nearly a century in Transcarpatia made it an even more fertile field.  Moscow proved a better master than neighboring Poles, Ukrainians, Slovaks and Hungarians.

Of course, if one were a cynic one could explain the fertility of the field as a tacit recognition of the new master of the sphere of influence.

This would be in keeping with what I heard growing up from the 'babas' and their husbands. We were what we always were - didn't really matter what the 'rulers' said. To paraphrase Tevye's apocryphal 'prayer for the Tsar', their mantra for centuries was 'We are stuck with being loyal to the closest Duke and may God keep the (Tsar, Emperor, Pope, fill in the blank) far, far away.'
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« Reply #47 on: April 25, 2012, 11:18:43 AM »

Forcing people to be under Moscow is no solution. Forcing them to be uncanonical isn't either. Why can't we have 2 canonical jurisdictions, in communion with each other, for now? We have that here in Western Europe, as well as in North America, and no one has died from that!

How many people have turned away from the Church or not even entered due to the current situation in North America?? Has anyone literally died?? No. But that doesn't mean there hasn't been a great harm done to an unknown number of lost sheep.

The Church is One. And it is a family. And a family that is talking and sitting down at one table is preferable to one that is divided and refusing to speak to other parts.

John, I am confused as to what you are getting at.  I'm not saying you are wrong, I just don't understand what you are saying.

How has "great harm" been done to "lost sheep"?

In the U.S. it seems to me that all the canonical Orthodox (with a few exceptions) get along just fine.  I don't hear of any hierarchical squabbles, or certain jurisdictions overstepping their bounds.

In fact, I think it is a great system for the environment and situation we find ourselves in, here in the U.S. (ethnic melting pot).

ALL the Orthodox faithful come and go to various canonical churches....feeling welcome and just as much at home in a Serbian, as in a Ukrainian, as in a Romanian, etc.

I don't understand how these people are being harmed.

Please explain what you are getting at.



My dad, who lived through the splits in the US during the 1930's and was an Orthodox priest for nearly 66 years, told it this way.

Most parishes split three ways - maybe even four. There were those who remained Greek Catholic (for a variety of reasons, often linked to retention of the beautiful churches they had struggled to build in their new country.) Those who converted to Orthodoxy  ( Most of those folks had to rebuild and start anew, so the numbers were smaller.) Those who joined the neighboring Roman Church (usually the Slovak parish for those from what became Czechoslovakia after WW1.) Finally there were the 'lost sheep' - those who lost their faith either in disgust over the vitriol and bitterness that the ongoing schisms caused to families, parishes and communities or who simply drifted away as time went by, never recovering from the wounds of division.

Our own parish in Binghamton had nearly 10,000 souls on its metrical books prior to the 1930's schism. Afterwards, it retained about 3500 of them, 3000 left to build a new Greek Catholic Church and the rest? Scattered in the wind, I am afraid.

Is that what we desire for Ukraine? I doubt it.

So, now the issue is no longer strictly an Orthodox one, but, a Orthodox and Greek Catholic one.  Is that what you are saying?

It's not enough that we have all these issues in the Orthodox Church in Ukraine....we've now thrown the UGC in the mix.

I suggest that we first focus on Orthodox unity, and then try to bring about unity with the UGC.

The truly sad thing that I have seen in my Ukrainian community, is that most folks really don't care about the church.  They come for Easter and Christmas....and to state that their souls 'are lost" because of disunity, is incorrect.  

Their souls might be lost due to secularism, and the worshiping of the modern idol of "self" and self pleasure - rather be golfing, mowing the grass, sleeping, etc.

The others who do come to church and realize the value in it, will always go to church.  If they get sick of the Ukrainian situation, they will find another Orthodox church to go to.  They will not leave Christ, nor His Church.....and their souls will not be lost.

On the other hand, we have the true blue Ukrainians, who know little of their faith and see no issue bouncing between the Orthodox and the UGC...after all, they are Ukrainian, too.

But, the point is, the Church is not only where Ukrainians are....and sometimes our nationalistic pride (as seen in many KP supporters - just take a look on Facebook what's going on right now) blinds us to the Church.

We don't even act like Christians.  The KP crowd HATES the UOCC and the UOCofUSA with such passion, that they are blinded to anything and everything else.

It's a shame.
 
They will pounce on the slightest impropriety they think they have detected, and will magnify it a thousand times....making a huge issue, where none actually existed.

This has been seen countless times, with countless and baseless accusations from the KP supporters against the UOCofUSA/UOCC.

I completely understand their pride, and desire for a canonical Ukrainian Church in Ukraine...I support them 100% in this.  However, their methods, their leadership, their entire backing is so rotten, it's festering, and spreading .....and doing nothing to build up Ukraine, but, only tear her down.

....and due to their pride, they don't see this.  It's their way, or no way.

God, help us.
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« Reply #48 on: April 25, 2012, 11:31:43 AM »

Forcing people to be under Moscow is no solution. Forcing them to be uncanonical isn't either. Why can't we have 2 canonical jurisdictions, in communion with each other, for now? We have that here in Western Europe, as well as in North America, and no one has died from that!

How many people have turned away from the Church or not even entered due to the current situation in North America?? Has anyone literally died?? No. But that doesn't mean there hasn't been a great harm done to an unknown number of lost sheep.

The Church is One. And it is a family. And a family that is talking and sitting down at one table is preferable to one that is divided and refusing to speak to other parts.

John, I am confused as to what you are getting at.  I'm not saying you are wrong, I just don't understand what you are saying.

How has "great harm" been done to "lost sheep"?

In the U.S. it seems to me that all the canonical Orthodox (with a few exceptions) get along just fine.  I don't hear of any hierarchical squabbles, or certain jurisdictions overstepping their bounds.

In fact, I think it is a great system for the environment and situation we find ourselves in, here in the U.S. (ethnic melting pot).

ALL the Orthodox faithful come and go to various canonical churches....feeling welcome and just as much at home in a Serbian, as in a Ukrainian, as in a Romanian, etc.

I don't understand how these people are being harmed.

Please explain what you are getting at.



My dad, who lived through the splits in the US during the 1930's and was an Orthodox priest for nearly 66 years, told it this way.

Most parishes split three ways - maybe even four. There were those who remained Greek Catholic (for a variety of reasons, often linked to retention of the beautiful churches they had struggled to build in their new country.) Those who converted to Orthodoxy  ( Most of those folks had to rebuild and start anew, so the numbers were smaller.) Those who joined the neighboring Roman Church (usually the Slovak parish for those from what became Czechoslovakia after WW1.) Finally there were the 'lost sheep' - those who lost their faith either in disgust over the vitriol and bitterness that the ongoing schisms caused to families, parishes and communities or who simply drifted away as time went by, never recovering from the wounds of division.

Our own parish in Binghamton had nearly 10,000 souls on its metrical books prior to the 1930's schism. Afterwards, it retained about 3500 of them, 3000 left to build a new Greek Catholic Church and the rest? Scattered in the wind, I am afraid.

Is that what we desire for Ukraine? I doubt it.

So, now the issue is no longer strictly an Orthodox one, but, a Orthodox and Greek Catholic one.  Is that what you are saying?

It's not enough that we have all these issues in the Orthodox Church in Ukraine....we've now thrown the UGC in the mix.

I suggest that we first focus on Orthodox unity, and then try to bring about unity with the UGC.

The truly sad thing that I have seen in my Ukrainian community, is that most folks really don't care about the church.  They come for Easter and Christmas....and to state that their souls 'are lost" because of disunity, is incorrect.  

Their souls might be lost due to secularism, and the worshiping of the modern idol of "self" and self pleasure - rather be golfing, mowing the grass, sleeping, etc.

The others who do come to church and realize the value in it, will always go to church.  If they get sick of the Ukrainian situation, they will find another Orthodox church to go to.  They will not leave Christ, nor His Church.....and their souls will not be lost.

On the other hand, we have the true blue Ukrainians, who know little of their faith and see no issue bouncing between the Orthodox and the UGC...after all, they are Ukrainian, too.

But, the point is, the Church is not only where Ukrainians are....and sometimes our nationalistic pride (as seen in many KP supporters - just take a look on Facebook what's going on right now) blinds us to the Church.

We don't even act like Christians.  The KP crowd HATES the UOCC and the UOCofUSA with such passion, that they are blinded to anything and everything else.

It's a shame.
 
They will pounce on the slightest impropriety they think they have detected, and will magnify it a thousand times....making a huge issue, where none actually existed.

This has been seen countless times, with countless and baseless accusations from the KP supporters against the UOCofUSA/UOCC.

I completely understand their pride, and desire for a canonical Ukrainian Church in Ukraine...I support them 100% in this.  However, their methods, their leadership, their entire backing is so rotten, it's festering, and spreading .....and doing nothing to build up Ukraine, but, only tear her down.

....and due to their pride, they don't see this.  It's their way, or no way.

God, help us.


Just to be clear, I do not include the UGCC in the equation. That's a whole 'nother issue indeed. Their leaders keep 'hinting' around the UOAC and the KP. I see them as being on the outs looking in for the foreseeable future. I think that by saying what they say from time to time, they are trying to see that Rome is scared enough by their words to give them enough rope to run their own affairs.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2012, 11:33:48 AM by podkarpatska » Logged
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« Reply #49 on: April 25, 2012, 01:52:32 PM »

Thank God that many (most?) parishes in the United States are open Orthodox of different backgrounds joining their congregations, but there are still a number where you must be [Greek/Romanian/Russian/WASO/whatever] to be welcome for more than a Sunday. There are some pretty appalling happenings still going on :-/. Though in all fairness that would likely still happen regardless of whether the hierarchy was one or not.

That aside, when we can migrate from one jurisdiction to another because we know the priest at the parish one town over will (with his hierarch's blessing) divorce us, no questions asked, when our own priest won't, harm is happening :-/.


Forcing people to be under Moscow is no solution. Forcing them to be uncanonical isn't either. Why can't we have 2 canonical jurisdictions, in communion with each other, for now? We have that here in Western Europe, as well as in North America, and no one has died from that!

How many people have turned away from the Church or not even entered due to the current situation in North America?? Has anyone literally died?? No. But that doesn't mean there hasn't been a great harm done to an unknown number of lost sheep.

The Church is One. And it is a family. And a family that is talking and sitting down at one table is preferable to one that is divided and refusing to speak to other parts.

John, I am confused as to what you are getting at.  I'm not saying you are wrong, I just don't understand what you are saying.

How has "great harm" been done to "lost sheep"?

In the U.S. it seems to me that all the canonical Orthodox (with a few exceptions) get along just fine.  I don't hear of any hierarchical squabbles, or certain jurisdictions overstepping their bounds.

In fact, I think it is a great system for the environment and situation we find ourselves in, here in the U.S. (ethnic melting pot).

ALL the Orthodox faithful come and go to various canonical churches....feeling welcome and just as much at home in a Serbian, as in a Ukrainian, as in a Romanian, etc.

I don't understand how these people are being harmed.

Please explain what you are getting at.


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« Reply #50 on: April 25, 2012, 02:07:05 PM »


Wow!  I don't know where you live.  That's terrible.

It's not like that here.

We all visit each other.  When one has a Patronal Feast Day, we all try to go.

We even have a "council" comprised of each jurisdiction, and we work together sponsoring a Spring Dance (funds go to charity), we get together to prepare bagged lunches for our homeless, we always work together to promote "Orthodoxy" in our community.

There's no tension between the jurisdictions.

Individual folks may have issues, but, that's rare. 


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« Reply #51 on: April 25, 2012, 02:17:19 PM »

Слава Ісусу Христу! That sounds wonderful! Where I live right now is similar (sans any formal organization), but I've moved around a lot and heard/seen more than I needed to :-/.

With God's help things do seem to be improving - perhaps at some point in the process we'll love and trust each other enough to be united more concretely!


Wow!  I don't know where you live.  That's terrible.

It's not like that here.

We all visit each other.  When one has a Patronal Feast Day, we all try to go.

We even have a "council" comprised of each jurisdiction, and we work together sponsoring a Spring Dance (funds go to charity), we get together to prepare bagged lunches for our homeless, we always work together to promote "Orthodoxy" in our community.

There's no tension between the jurisdictions.

Individual folks may have issues, but, that's rare. 



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« Reply #52 on: April 25, 2012, 02:18:36 PM »

As an outsider I have to admit that I have much better impressions than, for example, 3 years ago. GJ
« Last Edit: April 25, 2012, 02:18:48 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged

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« Reply #53 on: April 25, 2012, 02:29:29 PM »

Forcing people to be under Moscow is no solution. Forcing them to be uncanonical isn't either. Why can't we have 2 canonical jurisdictions, in communion with each other, for now? We have that here in Western Europe, as well as in North America, and no one has died from that!

How many people have turned away from the Church or not even entered due to the current situation in North America?? Has anyone literally died?? No. But that doesn't mean there hasn't been a great harm done to an unknown number of lost sheep.

The Church is One. And it is a family. And a family that is talking and sitting down at one table is preferable to one that is divided and refusing to speak to other parts.

John, I am confused as to what you are getting at.  I'm not saying you are wrong, I just don't understand what you are saying.

How has "great harm" been done to "lost sheep"?

In the U.S. it seems to me that all the canonical Orthodox (with a few exceptions) get along just fine.  I don't hear of any hierarchical squabbles, or certain jurisdictions overstepping their bounds.

In fact, I think it is a great system for the environment and situation we find ourselves in, here in the U.S. (ethnic melting pot).

ALL the Orthodox faithful come and go to various canonical churches....feeling welcome and just as much at home in a Serbian, as in a Ukrainian, as in a Romanian, etc.

I don't understand how these people are being harmed.

Please explain what you are getting at.

I'm referring to people who are in the position where their only local Orthodox options are very ethnic communities, and who decide, for better or for worse, to not come in or to not stay because of this. I know of more than a few cases, but to cite just one, friend in another city in Canada went to an ethnic parish and was told, "This is a place for people of X ethnicity to pray. You are not welcome here." It is a contributing factor to him being not being Orthodox today.

My parish is moving slowly towards more English, but it is still a "Ukrainian ghetto"--being a quarter Ukrainian, that works for me. If I was to introduce anyone to Orthodoxy, I'd send them across town to another parish, but not every city has that luxury. I should also add that in Canada, the official government policy of multiculturalism has left the Church decades behind, allowing us to remain in our "ghettoes" from which we are only now emerging.

Two canonical jurisdictions in Ukraine will leave a wall up between the faithful, and perpetuate an "us vs them" mentality. It will not heal the tensions that are present in the situation, but will only entrench the issues formally into the organizational structure. Creating two canonical jurisdictions is preferable to the situation that exists now, but not by much. The Church needs to be unified, and the best way to do that is to sit at one table and be unified, working out our differences that way.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2012, 02:40:19 PM by John of the North » Logged

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« Reply #54 on: April 25, 2012, 04:38:49 PM »

I do not personally trust the head of the UOC-KP, and in fact, neither does the UAOC. I think, first the two non-canonical churches of Ukraine should unite with each other. In a fruther step, possibly after a return to democracy in Ukraine, that church could receive autonomy under Constantinople. Then we would have an Estonian situation. That is a best case scenario, since I do not see any sign that Moscow would be willing to grant autocephaly to Ukraine.
We don't need an Estonian situation in Estonia, let alone spreading it to Ukraine.

Moldavia?
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