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Author Topic: Presbyterian Church Leaders Meet with Terrorists in Lebanon  (Read 1870 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: October 21, 2004, 02:55:39 AM »

http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ChJew_31/4578_31.htm

Presbyterian Church Leaders Meet with Terrorists in Lebanon; ADL Says "Irresponsible" Decision Furthers Interfaith Rift

New York, NY, October 20, 2004 GǪ Reacting to a visit by a delegation from the U.S. Presbyterian Church in Beirut with members of the terrorist group Hezbollah, the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) today said it was "deeply disturbing that leaders of the Presbyterian Church would seek out a meeting with members of a terrorist organization responsible for attacks that have killed both Americans and Israelis."  Hezbollah is on the U.S. State Department's watch-list of global terrorist organizations.

The meeting between Sheikh Nabil Qauq, the leader of Hezbollah in south Lebanon, and a delegation of 24 leaders of the U.S. Presbyterian Church currently on a fact-finding tour in the Middle East, was broadcast October 17 on Al Manar, Hezbollah's satellite television network.  During the broadcast, at least one member of the delegation was shown praising Hezbollah.  Elder Ronald Stone, who identified himself as representing the East Liberty Presbyterian Church in Pittsburgh, said, "As an elder of our church, I'd like to say that according to my recent experience, relations and conversations with Islamic leaders are a lot easier than dealings and dialogue with Jewish leaders."  Elder Stone went on to praise Hezbollah:  "We treasure the precious words of Hezbollah and your expression of goodwill towards the American people."

Abraham H. Foxman, ADL National Director, and Rabbi Gary Bretton-Granatoor, ADL Director of Interfaith Affairs, issued the following statement:

    It is deeply disturbing that leaders of the Presbyterian Church would meet with the leader of a terrorist organization that is directly responsible for attacks against Americans and Israelis, and that has repeatedly denounced America and Israel as enemies of Islam.  It is especially troubling and offensive that at least one member of the delegation praised Hezbollah, telling them it was easier to dialogue with terrorists than with Jews when it comes to Middle East issues.

    Coming in an atmosphere where interfaith relations between Presbyterians and Jews have been sorely tested by the church's proposal to disinvest from Israel, it is disturbing that the Presbyterian leaders made the irresponsible decision to meet with Hezbollah, an organization whose self-stated goal is the total destruction of the Jewish State and the establishment of Islamic rule over Jerusalem. It is outrageous that, rather than seeking out moderate voices working for positive change in the Middle East, the Presbyterian leaders decided to seek out the leader of a terrorist organization.

Since its founding in 1982, Hezbollah has been responsible for hundreds of attacks against Israelis and Americans, including the 1983 suicide bomb attack on the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut, which killed 200.  Hezbollah also attacked the Israeli Embassy in Argentina in 1992 and the Israeli cultural center in Buenos Aires in 1994.

While continuing to carry out cross-border attacks against Israel, Hezbollah has more recently contributed to anti-Semitic incitement throughout the Middle East, using its satellite station to broadcast anti-Semitic propaganda.  According to the U.S. State Department, Hezbollah receives financing and other support from Syria and Iran.

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« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2004, 03:02:01 AM »

Breaking News.......

 New York, NY, October 21, 2004 GǪHezbollah leaders, meeting with a delegation from the U.S. Presbyterian Church in Beirut, got pissed of and beheaded the whole bunch of them. The meeting was not deemed a success by the U.S. Presbyterian Church, but Hezbollah leaders thought turned out fine and later had a barbeque with corn on the cob and ribs. An Anti-Defamation League (ADL) representative today said, "I told you so!"

LOL Grin Grin Grin

What a pack of morons trying to reason with terrorist that are on most countries watch list as being extremly dangerous.....
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« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2004, 01:22:45 AM »

It's no secret that I am 100% Pro-Palestinian.  And I really do not like the ADL.  However, these Presbyterians are just acting irresponsibly!

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« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2004, 02:59:29 AM »

Quote
It's no secret that I am 100% Pro-Palestinian.  And I really do not like the ADL.  However, these Presbyterians are just acting irresponsibly!

I don't like the ADL either because they are a pack of leftist that also went after Mel Gibson. I also don't really understand the pro-palestinian position??? What is your stance on Israel?? Right now I would have to say I side with isreal because it's not right for palestianians to support terrorist orgnizations who kill jews to get what they want. If they followed the tenets of people like Martin Luther King, I think they would further thier cause much further. Instead they are giving countries good reasons to support isreal for now. I think it's a very frusterating situation with no easy answers.
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« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2004, 03:08:06 AM »

I don't like the ADL either because they are a pack of leftist that also went after Mel Gibson. I also don't really understand the pro-palestinian position??? What is your stance on Israel?? Right now I would have to say I side with isreal because it's not right for palestianians to support terrorist orgnizations who kill jews to get what they want. If they followed the tenets of people like Martin Luther King, I think they would further thier cause much further. Instead they are giving countries good reasons to support isreal for now. I think it's a very frusterating situation with no easy answers.

Would Martin Luther King have been successful if the awesome power of the federal government had not been brought down upon the south?  Make no mistake about it, it was an "interventionalist" court that 'subverted' democracy to outlaw segregation.  Federal troops were sent to the south to enforce the Court's ruling.  The Congress followed suit by using the commerce clause to outlaw segregation.  

Would MLK have been successful in the 1890's during the Plessy era?  I don't think so.  
The history of the civil rights movement also raises questions for those who complain about "interventionalist" judges who "interpret" the law as it suits them.  But that's another discussion.  

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« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2004, 09:18:49 AM »

Quote
Would Martin Luther King have been successful if the awesome power of the federal government had not been brought down upon the south?  Make no mistake about it, it was an "interventionalist" court that 'subverted' democracy to outlaw segregation.  Federal troops were sent to the south to enforce the Court's ruling.  The Congress followed suit by using the commerce clause to outlaw segregation.

I think between whole sale passive resistance (p.r.) and the denial of it's ability to succeed is a truth which leans more towards advocating p.r. than denying it.

Genuine p.r. (which MLK picked up from the likes of Ghandi) recognizes that there is a huge price to pay, and that it could take a long time before it bears any fruit.  Nor does it teach that p.r. is just going to make things change by itself.  Rather the basic doctrine would seem to be, that by being on the side of what is right and true, this will eventually begin to convince people to have a change of heart.  And among those people, obviously (and in a most key way) would be ruling powers.  So to deny that the peaceful civil rights movement "really worked" just because there was government internvention makes no sense - rather, it is fundamentally what caused that intervention to begin with.

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« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2004, 09:29:54 AM »

Nacho,

Quote
don't like the ADL either because they are a pack of leftist that also went after Mel Gibson. I also don't really understand the pro-palestinian position??? What is your stance on Israel?? Right now I would have to say I side with isreal because it's not right for palestianians to support terrorist orgnizations who kill jews to get what they want.

While I'm not a fan of the methods of Palestinian militants, I refuse to use the word "terrorist" against them, unless we can apply to the same term to the Israeli government.  Both use "terror" to achieve their goals, terrorizing the other, causing the other as much misery as they can get away with.  That is the reality of the Israel/Palestine problem - an endless cycle of carnage, born in great injustice, typical or Europes meddling in the affairs of the Middle East (and arbitrarily drawing boarders and giving out land to this or that activist/leader without caring about the consequences of doing such...this was the problem in Iraq/Kuwait, and it's the problem in Israel/Palestine.)

Quote
If they followed the tenets of people like Martin Luther King, I think they would further thier cause much further.

I'm inclined to agree.  However, it's very easy for us to sit here and tell other people in suffering "sacrifice your lives and potentially those of your wailing children for the greater good".  I wouldn't have the nerve to tell that to a man whose buried his own son who had the misfortune of being stopped by a particularly sadistic IDF stormtrooper, or a youth who has to watch while his womenfolk are humiliated on a regular basis by Israeli occupation forces.  I have a relatively comfortable life - I'm not in a position to tell suffering people to sacrifice even more, for a good they may not even live to enjoy.

Quote
Instead they are giving countries good reasons to support isreal for now. I think it's a very frusterating situation with no easy answers.

The only country (not countries) that supports Israel is America, and this has little if anything to do with the malice of the Palestinians (that is simply used by the powers that be to keep selling this support to the American public.)  The real reasons for American support rest between pragmaticism (Israel being a good foothold in that part of the world for the American gov't), and the subversion of American autonomy to private/international interests (basically, big Jewish money, media and lobby groups keeping American politicians bribed or sufficiently intimidated.)  American support for Israel has nothing to do with principle, except save for the fundagelical fanatics (so called Christian Zionists) who find Israel fits somewhere into their eschatology.

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« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2004, 09:37:33 AM »

I wasn't claiming that passive resistance never worked but rather that p.r. isn't the only reason the civil rights movement succeeded so I don't think we can say with absolute certainty that p.r. would work in other societies that don't have the same traditions and legal foundations as ours.  

Another question I have is whether an Islamic culture would produce a genuine p.r. movement.  MLK was motivated by Christian beliefs.  Ghandi was Hindu which I know almost nothing about so I don't how that affected him.  

My overall feeling about Israel is that it's the ultimate proof that oppression breeds oppression.  The most hard-line Israelis from the early days all came from the  Pale where they were oppressed by us (meaning European Christians).  They in turn oppressed the Paletinians.   Two wrongs don't make a right but I don't think we can't look at these things in isolation.
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« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2004, 12:37:18 PM »

My 1/50th of a dollar, if anyone cares.

Presb meeting w/ Hezbollah:
I don't know if I would say it is irresponsible as opposed to just pointless - just like the Sean Penn meeting w/ Sadam.  I totally believe that the dialogue w/ Hezbollah went smoother and was easier than dialogue w/ "the Jews", but the Presb's are completely naive if they think their dialogue will have any more effect than just lip service.  If we can wave a magic wand, put the borders back to 1964 or whatever some of those dates are, have Israel completely pull out, grant "state" or whatever status to the new state/country/whatever of Palestine and rebuild their economy, etc etc., I'm sure bombings would DECREASE.  Again, DECREASE, but not completely cease, as the stated goal of theses organizations is the eradication of the Israeli state.  I'm sure general USA-Arab relations would be much better as well.  Again, though, things would be BETTER, but they would still not cease completely since they want us infidels converted or killed.  So conclusion to the title?  A pointless waste of time.

re methods/p.r./etc.:
An academic exercise.  Don't see any point in discussing.
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« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2004, 01:26:28 PM »

It was obviously a mistake for Israel to try to occupy the West Bank and parts of Lebanon.  But at the time Israel had been invaded about once a decade by her friendly Arab neighbors and there was a strong call for buffer zones.  

Israel should continue building the wall then give the bulk of the bank over to Jordan and the strip to Eygpt.  Then let the Arabs deal with the Palestinian question.  
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« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2004, 01:56:29 PM »

Nacho,While I'm not a fan of the methods of Palestinian militants, I refuse to use the word "terrorist" against them, unless we can apply to the same term to the Israeli government.

Quote
I have a relatively comfortable life - I'm not in a position to tell suffering people to sacrifice even more, for a good they may not even live to enjoy.

Quote
The only country (not countries) that supports Israel is America, and this has little if anything to do with the malice of the Palestinians (that is simply used by the powers that be to keep selling this support to the American public.)

All excellent points, Augustine.
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« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2004, 10:43:35 PM »

Well both the Palestinians[muslims one that is] and Israelis hate Christians of anykind. I think the Presbytarians can't be considered ******IANS because they have debates if Christ is Divine or not..... Its a hard choice to pick either side... just my 2 cents
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« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2004, 10:44:08 PM »

The Palestinian Muslims I have met do not hate Christians. Suffering together tends to make their relations warmer.

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« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2004, 11:13:21 PM »

The Palestinian Muslims I have met do not hate Christians. Suffering together tends to make their relations warmer.

That's right...our neighbors, who are Lebanese Muslims, found out we are Orthodox and said, "oh, all our friends are Or-to-dox; very good people!"  Likewise, my former parish in Tulsa is full of Lebanese Orthodox who have lifetime Muslim friends.

They, do, however, share bitterness towards the Israelis....
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« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2004, 11:27:53 PM »

Nacho,

Even though I am a Republican and supported the War in Iraq, when it comes to Israel vs. the Palestinians, I am 100% Pro-Palestinian, meaning I believe the USA should stop supporting Israel with 6.8 billion dollars a year in aid and that the Israeli government is a fundamentally evil for the way it segregates Palestinians from society.  I used to be pro-Israel but then I watched a Jewish-produced video called "Jerusalem: An Occupation Set in Stone?" and was totally changed.  One thing that affected me was watching the Israeli army bulldoze a Greek Orthodox Church and watching an Israeli solider throw a Muslim women out of her house and then bulldoze it in front of her and her 13 children.  While I do not blame Israel for trying to protect itself I fundamentally believe that some in Israel do not want the Palestinian problem solved so that they can remain in power.

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