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Thatguy
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« on: April 16, 2012, 11:33:58 PM »

After a 6+ month and emotional inquiry to Roman Catholicism, I have just reached a point to where I am almost sure that the Pope is not who he says he is. It was Eastern Orthodoxy that brought me into Apostolic Christianity from Protestantism, and now it seems Roman Catholicism is bringing me back to Eastern Orthodoxy.

Here's a few conversion issues that I face the moment I begin to contemplate this
1. Why not join the Oriental Orthodox church or the Assyrian church of the east instead of Eastern Orthodoxy? At first glance, they seem to have the same credentials as you guys.
2. From my understanding, you guys don't have ecumenical councils anymore, why is that?
3. I hear that some Orthodox churches aren't in communion with each other. Like church A might be in communion with church B and C, but church B isn't in communion with church C. Is this true?

Also, I really don't see this as a problem, but I attended my first divine liturgy (Easter service) and it felt more like a liturgical relay race then a service. The readings were SO fast. Is that normal?

Most importantly, please pray for me as I work out my salvation with fear and trembling,
Thanks for your time if you guys make it to this thread Smiley,
Ryan
« Last Edit: April 16, 2012, 11:34:31 PM by Thatguy » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2012, 11:48:01 PM »


Welcome to the forum, Thatguy!

Here are "my" answers to your questions.

1. Eastern Orthodox - because that's what I know and love!  Smiley
2. No Councils?  I hear one is in the making, as we speak (write).  There haven't been any major issues (thankfully), no heresies, etc...that required the calling of such a Council.
3. Well, if they are "not" in communion, there's usually a pretty good reason for it.  It may seem odd from the outside, but, once you take a good look at it, you'll realize there not in communion because of some major stumbling block, they might be a splinter group, etc.  If you give an example, we can tackle it, and let you know the "why" behind it.
4. Fast reading?  Really?  No, that's NOT the norm.  You attended the LONGEST service of the year, and they were probably going "fast" on purpose so folks would not fall asleep.  Normally, it goes at a slower rate.

Once again, welcome to the forum!

You are in our prayers!!!!
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« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2012, 12:03:10 AM »

1. Why not join the Oriental Orthodox church or the Assyrian church of the east instead of Eastern Orthodoxy? At first glance, they seem to have the same credentials as you guys.
The Assyrian Church of the East has no icons. For me, that is a sign that their Christology indeed is not completely correct. There is one Christ, human and divine, and we depict his person according to its human aspect, representing the one person who is both human and divine.

As for the OOs, having lived in Egypt for a few months recently, I know the Copts and I think they are Orthodox, too. For myself, the EO Church is my home, but go and see which parish near your home (EO and OO parishes) you feel most comfortable in.


2. From my understanding, you guys don't have ecumenical councils anymore, why is that?
An Ecumenical council has the job of defining doctrine against heresy. Whereas there are some issues in Church politics, the EO church has quite a clear doctrine, and there is no heresy within the Church causing docrtinal confusion at the moment.

3. I hear that some Orthodox churches aren't in communion with each other. Like church A might be in communion with church B and C, but church B isn't in communion with church C. Is this true?
All EO usually are in communion with each other.

Also, I really don't see this as a problem, but I attended my first divine liturgy (Easter service) and it felt more like a liturgical relay race then a service. The readings were SO fast. Is that normal?
Depends on the traditions of each parish. But I am not used to such a thing.
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« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2012, 12:04:13 AM »

After a 6+ month and emotional inquiry to Roman Catholicism, I have just reached a point to where I am almost sure that the Pope is not who he says he is. It was Eastern Orthodoxy that brought me into Apostolic Christianity from Protestantism, and now it seems Roman Catholicism is bringing me back to Eastern Orthodoxy.

Here's a few conversion issues that I face the moment I begin to contemplate this
1. Why not join the Oriental Orthodox church or the Assyrian church of the east instead of Eastern Orthodoxy? At first glance, they seem to have the same credentials as you guys.

Assyrian Church of the East is rather simple--go look at the Council of Ephesus. If you agree that Christ is God and man, One Person, then the ACoE was wrong to go into schism following it. If you disagree, then the ACoE is the Church for you.

Oriental Orthodox is far more complicated--and any responses are going to be limited by the fact that forum rules forbid polemical posts between EOs and OOs (which I would take any post telling you why should become EO rather than OO or vice versa to be) on the public forums. All I can suggest is that if there are both EO and OO churches in your area, go to both and ask you question of the priests there. If there is only one in your area, go to that one during your inquiry and follow-up on the relationship between the two later. If you have the bad luck to be somewhere where there are neither--well, you've got some time. Concentrate on the vast majority of things EO and OO agree on, do some reading on the Council of Chalcedon and after you've got some larger context join the private forums here to get a better understanding of how EO and OO view that council, the subsequent history, and the present.


Quote
2. From my understanding, you guys don't have ecumenical councils anymore, why is that?

Haven't needed one. No dispute about doctrine/heresy has reached such a level that it's needed a council of the whole Church to address it.
 
Quote
3. I hear that some Orthodox churches aren't in communion with each other. Like church A might be in communion with church B and C, but church B isn't in communion with church C. Is this true?

Well, the EO and OO are not in communion. There are also some traditionalist groups (similar to the SSPX, etc) who have broken communion and left the rest of the Church. But in general, no that's not true. All the Orthodox autocephalous churches are in full communion with all the other autocephalous churches.

Quote
Also, I really don't see this as a problem, but I attended my first divine liturgy (Easter service) and it felt more like a liturgical relay race then a service. The readings were SO fast. Is that normal?

Largely depends on the reader (and possibly any instruction he's gotten from the priest). In my own experience, no--but I've been Orthodox for a long time now and am used to the sound of chanting so that might be a difference in perception.

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« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2012, 12:36:23 AM »

No need to go over 1,2 and 3 which witega covered rather well-

As regards fast chanting/reading- my first Pascha was at a Greek parish where they did everything in Greek and repeated it in English. Those guys went at a machine gun pace- since then, no other parishes I have attended have had a problem with that- save the one I currently attend where, despite my best efforts to slow down, I apparently read too fast for others to read along in the service books (though those who have told me this also say that my diction is clear enough that reading along isn't necessary- I don't know if this is true or they are just trying to be nice).
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« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2012, 12:56:11 AM »

After a 6+ month and emotional inquiry to Roman Catholicism, I have just reached a point to where I am almost sure that the Pope is not who he says he is. It was Eastern Orthodoxy that brought me into Apostolic Christianity from Protestantism, and now it seems Roman Catholicism is bringing me back to Eastern Orthodoxy.

Here's a few conversion issues that I face the moment I begin to contemplate this
1. Why not join the Oriental Orthodox church or the Assyrian church of the east instead of Eastern Orthodoxy? At first glance, they seem to have the same credentials as you guys.

The ACoE is Nestorian. They reject Orthodox Christology by dividing our Lord into two "persons". This one is pretty cut and dry. As for the OO, it comes down to Christology, as well, though the situation surrounding the 4th EC is much hairier than that surrounding the 3rd (which dealt with the Nestorians). I'm of the opinion that the OO hold fast to the Cyrillian christological formula and are therefore Orthodox. While we are not in communion with them at this point and are resolving 1,500 years worth of schism, I believe that both the EO and the OO profess the Faith. While my home is the Byzantine church, I would not begrudge you to go OO.

Quote
2. From my understanding, you guys don't have ecumenical councils anymore, why is that?

"Ecumenical Councils" belong to the age of the Ecumene, the Empire, which hasn't been around for some time. However, we still hold councils. Ever heard of St. Gregory Palamas? The definitions of the Palamite councils are universal in Orthodoxy, just as important as Ecumenical Councils, but aren't numbered among the seven.

Quote
3. I hear that some Orthodox churches aren't in communion with each other. Like church A might be in communion with church B and C, but church B isn't in communion with church C. Is this true?

No. this does not happen in the EO. Occasionally certain local churches will not concelebrate together, which is a sign of tension between them, however it is not a declaration of heresy nor schism, and they both consider the other Orthodox in their Faith and both remain in communion with all the other churches. There are schismatic groups (The Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Kyivan Patriarchate, the Macedonian Orthodox Church, Russian Old Believers, Greek Old Calendarists, etc.) but they remain unrecognized and are not in communion with any canonical Orthodox Church.

Quote
Also, I really don't see this as a problem, but I attended my first divine liturgy (Easter service) and it felt more like a liturgical relay race then a service. The readings were SO fast. Is that normal?

Do you mean the readings of the Epistle and Gospel, or the hymns? the Paschal hymns tend to be sung high, loud and fast. We're HAPPY! the Paschal Vigil is NOT an ordinary service, and really a terrible first experience in my opinion because you don't have any liturgical context for the celebration.

Quote
Most importantly, please pray for me as I work out my salvation with fear and trembling,
Thanks for your time if you guys make it to this thread Smiley,
Ryan

May the Lord bless and guide your paths!
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« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2012, 12:03:08 PM »

As a former Protestant who was Chrismated on Sunday, I say welcome! you're making a good choice Smiley Allow me to give my opinions:

Quote
1. Why not join the Oriental Orthodox church or the Assyrian church of the east instead of Eastern Orthodoxy? At first glance, they seem to have the same credentials as you guys
There are differences. Many, myself included believe the Eastern Orthodox need and should reunite with our oriental brothers. I'll not go into details about the Assyrian Church, but look up "Nestorianism" Smiley

Quote
2. From my understanding, you guys don't have ecumenical councils anymore, why is that?
The acceptance of the Church makes a council Ecumenical. However there is a council being planned (I believe in 2013).

Quote
3. I hear that some Orthodox churches aren't in communion with each other. Like church A might be in communion with church B and C, but church B isn't in communion with church C. Is this true?
I know for me, Im Western Rite, and if I go to the Greek Church I can get communed, no problem. Or if I wanted to take a small drive to D.C. I could commune at the OCA Cathedral. The only glaring example I can think of in your example are the Old Calendarists.


PP
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« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2012, 02:14:54 PM »

Thatguy, welcome to the forum.

I thought I understood that there were some Orthodox Churches that most of us would not consider splinter groups the OCA for example there were recognized but not universally, albeit when I heard this I got the impression it was more administrative than anything else, IE. that had not been recognized yet. but perhaps my info. is old have these things been resolved? Or did I misunderstand altogether? Either way, I'm guessing that what I think I heard may be the same thing Thatguy heard.

PP,
I too have at least heard rumors of an upcoming counsel. Where did you get 2013? BTW congrats on your Chrismation, Many Years.
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« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2012, 02:20:00 PM »

Quote
I thought I understood that there were some Orthodox Churches that most of us would not consider splinter groups the OCA for example there were recognized but not universally, albeit when I heard this I got the impression it was more administrative than anything else, IE. that had not been recognized yet. but perhaps my info. is old have these things been resolved?
Not resolved, like the EP does not recognize the OCA but says they're Orthodox, and can commune.

Quote
I too have at least heard rumors of an upcoming counsel. Where did you get 2013?
http://orthodoxbeacon.com/local/pan-orthodox-council-likely-in-2012-or-2013-orthodox-unification-top-topic/
Quote
Vienna Greek-Orthodox Archbishop Michael Staikos, the Church’s Exarch for Central Europe, will visit Moscow on Pentecost, 24 May, it was announced Thursday. He will accompany Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomaios I
and there is also some things spoken about it on AFR, but I dont remember where.

Quote
BTW congrats on your Chrismation, Many Years
Thanks buddy, I apprecaite it!

PP
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« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2012, 02:28:24 PM »


3. I hear that some Orthodox churches aren't in communion with each other. Like church A might be in communion with church B and C, but church B isn't in communion with church C. Is this true?


This one was largely resolved when the ROCOR reunited with the Moscow Patriarchate.  Prior to that ROCOR was in "direct" communion with the Serbs and Jerusalem (IIRC), but not with the other canonical Orthodox churches.  With the reapproachment of ROCOR and the MP, this situation largely disappeared. 
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« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2012, 03:19:36 PM »

I'm not sure why EOs give so much more theological latitude to the OOs than to the ACOE. While they may be a bit further away from us, they're not really Nestorian/Mopsuestian heretics either. One has to appreciate the context of the controversy and the nuances through the ages. We have more in common with the ACOE, I'd wager, than with other Christian bodies. As for icons, the Assyrian churches in Central Asia and China apparently do have them. Further west in the Middle East, they were discarded due to Mohammedan pressure, or so I heard.
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« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2012, 03:49:00 PM »

I'm not sure why EOs give so much more theological latitude to the OOs than to the ACOE. While they may be a bit further away from us, they're not really Nestorian/Mopsuestian heretics either. One has to appreciate the context of the controversy and the nuances through the ages. We have more in common with the ACOE, I'd wager, than with other Christian bodies. As for icons, the Assyrian churches in Central Asia and China apparently do have them. Further west in the Middle East, they were discarded due to Mohammedan pressure, or so I heard.

While Patriarch Dinkha has repudiated certain teachings of Nestorius, he is still considered a saint by the ACoE, and they reject the Cyrillian Christological language. Until they anathematize Nestorius and accept St. Cyril...they are heretics.
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« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2012, 06:07:38 PM »

I'm not sure why EOs give so much more theological latitude to the OOs than to the ACOE. While they may be a bit further away from us, they're not really Nestorian/Mopsuestian heretics either. One has to appreciate the context of the controversy and the nuances through the ages. We have more in common with the ACOE, I'd wager, than with other Christian bodies. As for icons, the Assyrian churches in Central Asia and China apparently do have them. Further west in the Middle East, they were discarded due to Mohammedan pressure, or so I heard.

While Patriarch Dinkha has repudiated certain teachings of Nestorius, he is still considered a saint by the ACoE, and they reject the Cyrillian Christological language. Until they anathematize Nestorius and accept St. Cyril...they are heretics.

Would you call the Orientals heretics until such time as they accept the Council of Chalcedon?
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« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2012, 06:35:41 PM »

I'm not sure why EOs give so much more theological latitude to the OOs than to the ACOE. While they may be a bit further away from us, they're not really Nestorian/Mopsuestian heretics either. One has to appreciate the context of the controversy and the nuances through the ages. We have more in common with the ACOE, I'd wager, than with other Christian bodies. As for icons, the Assyrian churches in Central Asia and China apparently do have them. Further west in the Middle East, they were discarded due to Mohammedan pressure, or so I heard.
I agree with you.  In order to exonerate OO and still hold the Assyirians as some form of unadulterated "Nestorian heresy" the same tortuous reasoning is needed as when they think its now ok to have all sorts of kinky sex with one's wife (which I don't care obviously) while holding those unmarried or unable to to the highest canonical standards. Better realize that the Church changes mind too, like everybody else.
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« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2012, 09:58:19 PM »

I'm not sure why EOs give so much more theological latitude to the OOs than to the ACOE. While they may be a bit further away from us, they're not really Nestorian/Mopsuestian heretics either. One has to appreciate the context of the controversy and the nuances through the ages. We have more in common with the ACOE, I'd wager, than with other Christian bodies. As for icons, the Assyrian churches in Central Asia and China apparently do have them. Further west in the Middle East, they were discarded due to Mohammedan pressure, or so I heard.

While Patriarch Dinkha has repudiated certain teachings of Nestorius, he is still considered a saint by the ACoE, and they reject the Cyrillian Christological language. Until they anathematize Nestorius and accept St. Cyril...they are heretics.

Would you call the Orientals heretics until such time as they accept the Council of Chalcedon?

I would not call them heretics because they do not teach anything contrary to the Orthodox Faith. While the OO do not accept Chalcedon, they recognize the language used by EOs today as Orthodox and also anathematized Eutyches. Whereas, the ACoE rejects Cyrillian language and venerates Nestorius.
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« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2012, 10:03:32 PM »

I'm not sure why EOs give so much more theological latitude to the OOs than to the ACOE. While they may be a bit further away from us, they're not really Nestorian/Mopsuestian heretics either. One has to appreciate the context of the controversy and the nuances through the ages. We have more in common with the ACOE, I'd wager, than with other Christian bodies. As for icons, the Assyrian churches in Central Asia and China apparently do have them. Further west in the Middle East, they were discarded due to Mohammedan pressure, or so I heard.

Well done!

No offense to any OOs, but Shanghaiski definitely has a point.
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« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2012, 11:00:44 PM »

I'm not sure why EOs give so much more theological latitude to the OOs than to the ACOE. While they may be a bit further away from us, they're not really Nestorian/Mopsuestian heretics either. One has to appreciate the context of the controversy and the nuances through the ages. We have more in common with the ACOE, I'd wager, than with other Christian bodies. As for icons, the Assyrian churches in Central Asia and China apparently do have them. Further west in the Middle East, they were discarded due to Mohammedan pressure, or so I heard.

Well done!

No offense to any OOs, but Shanghaiski definitely has a point.

Agreed.  I think it's partly a result of the peculiarities associated with this forum, e.g. restrictive language regarding OO's and whatever we're supposed to call certain Roman Catholics who used to be Orthodox, and are  formerly/currently referred to elsewhere with a word beginning with the letter U

Had one of the co-founders been ACOE this might have been different.

That said, ACOE is really tiny outside of Michigan and some enclaves throughout the East. This is reflected in some ways by their virtually non-existent presence on the forum.
No offense to any ACOE readers, but they also appear to have gone a bit goofy, with the whole open-communion thing (if that's actually true).  So it's a bit easier to discount their brand of Apostolic Xtianity.
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« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2012, 11:47:20 PM »

1. Why not join the Oriental Orthodox church or the Assyrian church of the east instead of Eastern Orthodoxy? At first glance, they seem to have the same credentials as you guys.
Questions like this can potentially take tremendous amounts of time and study to resolve. Even then, you rely on your own efforts and abilities, hoping you do not overlook some details and come to the wrong conclusion. Save yourself a lot a time and worry, and judge a tree by its fruits. At the core of Orthodox (i.e Eastern) tradition is the three-fold salvific process of purification, illumination, and glorification. While this teaching is regrettably neglected by many people (including clergy and hierarchs) in the modern Church, it is the only cure of the soul. Look at the great multitudes of Orthodox faithful (from all across the globe) who participate in noetic and unceasing prayer. Furthermore, the truth of (Eastern) Orthodoxy is attested to by the nearly two thousand years of glorified individuals (i.e. those who have seen the uncreated energies of God). These people (some of which are alive today), who have actually seen God, can tell you with the certainty of the apostles, that it is the only Church founded by God and the only one with the potential to heal the soul.
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« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2012, 12:06:07 AM »

As for icons, the Assyrian churches in Central Asia and China apparently do have them. Further west in the Middle East, they were discarded due to Mohammedan pressure, or so I heard.

Yeah, I checked out their website the last time I ran across the no icons thing somewhere, just to see, and while there are a lot of bare walls at least this one http://news.assyrianchurch.org/gallery-2?album=1&gallery=335 church in their gallery of pictures had icons.
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« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2012, 03:13:59 AM »

Clearly Byzantine icons, not some kind of tradition of their own. I would need more information about that specific parish - such as - are you sure it isn't one in communion with Rome? But if the Assyrian Church has started placing Byzantine icons, that means they have taken our criticism seriously and that is a good thing.
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« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2012, 05:34:31 PM »

1. Why not join the Oriental Orthodox church or the Assyrian church of the east instead of Eastern Orthodoxy? At first glance, they seem to have the same credentials as you guys.
Questions like this can potentially take tremendous amounts of time and study to resolve. Even then, you rely on your own efforts and abilities, hoping you do not overlook some details and come to the wrong conclusion. Save yourself a lot a time and worry, and judge a tree by its fruits. At the core of Orthodox (i.e Eastern) tradition is the three-fold salvific process of purification, illumination, and glorification. While this teaching is regrettably neglected by many people (including clergy and hierarchs) in the modern Church, it is the only cure of the soul. Look at the great multitudes of Orthodox faithful (from all across the globe) who participate in noetic and unceasing prayer. Furthermore, the truth of (Eastern) Orthodoxy is attested to by the nearly two thousand years of glorified individuals (i.e. those who have seen the uncreated energies of God). These people (some of which are alive today), who have actually seen God, can tell you with the certainty of the apostles, that it is the only Church founded by God and the only one with the potential to heal the soul.

Some of the OOs on this board have posted stories of Coptic ascetics being glorified (I remember one reportedly had to veil his face like Moses). How are we to know which accounts are authentic?
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« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2012, 05:39:43 PM »

I'm not sure why EOs give so much more theological latitude to the OOs than to the ACOE. While they may be a bit further away from us, they're not really Nestorian/Mopsuestian heretics either. One has to appreciate the context of the controversy and the nuances through the ages. We have more in common with the ACOE, I'd wager, than with other Christian bodies. As for icons, the Assyrian churches in Central Asia and China apparently do have them. Further west in the Middle East, they were discarded due to Mohammedan pressure, or so I heard.
I agree with you.  In order to exonerate OO and still hold the Assyirians as some form of unadulterated "Nestorian heresy" the same tortuous reasoning is needed as when they think its now ok to have all sorts of kinky sex with one's wife (which I don't care obviously) while holding those unmarried or unable to to the highest canonical standards. Better realize that the Church changes mind too, like everybody else.

To be pedantic, "kinky sex" between married couples is actually penanced more heavily in the Examologitarion than between non-married entities.
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« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2012, 05:41:26 PM »

I'm not sure why EOs give so much more theological latitude to the OOs than to the ACOE. While they may be a bit further away from us, they're not really Nestorian/Mopsuestian heretics either. One has to appreciate the context of the controversy and the nuances through the ages. We have more in common with the ACOE, I'd wager, than with other Christian bodies. As for icons, the Assyrian churches in Central Asia and China apparently do have them. Further west in the Middle East, they were discarded due to Mohammedan pressure, or so I heard.

While Patriarch Dinkha has repudiated certain teachings of Nestorius, he is still considered a saint by the ACoE, and they reject the Cyrillian Christological language. Until they anathematize Nestorius and accept St. Cyril...they are heretics.

Would you call the Orientals heretics until such time as they accept the Council of Chalcedon?

I would not call them heretics because they do not teach anything contrary to the Orthodox Faith. While the OO do not accept Chalcedon, they recognize the language used by EOs today as Orthodox and also anathematized Eutyches. Whereas, the ACoE rejects Cyrillian language and venerates Nestorius.

But, yet, we have had less dealings with them in general to know much about them. They may venerate Nestorius, but Nestorius himself appears to have anathematized "Nestorianism" before his death. No one cared about it at the time in Alexandria or Constantinople.
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« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2012, 05:44:35 PM »

I'm not sure why EOs give so much more theological latitude to the OOs than to the ACOE. While they may be a bit further away from us, they're not really Nestorian/Mopsuestian heretics either. One has to appreciate the context of the controversy and the nuances through the ages. We have more in common with the ACOE, I'd wager, than with other Christian bodies. As for icons, the Assyrian churches in Central Asia and China apparently do have them. Further west in the Middle East, they were discarded due to Mohammedan pressure, or so I heard.

Well done!

No offense to any OOs, but Shanghaiski definitely has a point.

Agreed.  I think it's partly a result of the peculiarities associated with this forum, e.g. restrictive language regarding OO's and whatever we're supposed to call certain Roman Catholics who used to be Orthodox, and are  formerly/currently referred to elsewhere with a word beginning with the letter U

Had one of the co-founders been ACOE this might have been different.

That said, ACOE is really tiny outside of Michigan and some enclaves throughout the East. This is reflected in some ways by their virtually non-existent presence on the forum.
No offense to any ACOE readers, but they also appear to have gone a bit goofy, with the whole open-communion thing (if that's actually true).  So it's a bit easier to discount their brand of Apostolic Xtianity.

The Assyrians have been rather insular over the centuries and have been made even more so due to schisms brought on by Roman Catholics and Whatever Happened In India (TM). They also have a schism between Old and New Calendars. They've also been killed in large numbers, particularly in the 20th century.
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« Reply #24 on: April 18, 2012, 05:48:37 PM »

1. Why not join the Oriental Orthodox church or the Assyrian church of the east instead of Eastern Orthodoxy? At first glance, they seem to have the same credentials as you guys.
Questions like this can potentially take tremendous amounts of time and study to resolve. Even then, you rely on your own efforts and abilities, hoping you do not overlook some details and come to the wrong conclusion. Save yourself a lot a time and worry, and judge a tree by its fruits. At the core of Orthodox (i.e Eastern) tradition is the three-fold salvific process of purification, illumination, and glorification. While this teaching is regrettably neglected by many people (including clergy and hierarchs) in the modern Church, it is the only cure of the soul. Look at the great multitudes of Orthodox faithful (from all across the globe) who participate in noetic and unceasing prayer. Furthermore, the truth of (Eastern) Orthodoxy is attested to by the nearly two thousand years of glorified individuals (i.e. those who have seen the uncreated energies of God). These people (some of which are alive today), who have actually seen God, can tell you with the certainty of the apostles, that it is the only Church founded by God and the only one with the potential to heal the soul.

Some of the OOs on this board have posted stories of Coptic ascetics being glorified (I remember one reportedly had to veil his face like Moses). How are we to know which accounts are authentic?

By and large, Orthodox do not dogmatize on spiritual phenomena happening amongst the heterodox. It's hard enough to tell from whence comes the spiritual phenomena happening amongst the Orthodox--sometimes even great figures in the Church are deceived, one way or the other. Miracles are not the basis of our faith. They can serve to confirm it, but as Elder Porphyrios, a man who experienced many great miracles said, "The greatest miracle I have seen is that I am the worst sinner in the world, and yet I have Christ for my Savior!"
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« Reply #25 on: April 18, 2012, 05:51:00 PM »

Surely, unqualifiedly labeling the ACOE as Nestorians is extremely problematic. And it would surely be unfair to judge them without knowing them well. But nonetheless, the reality of the incarnation is something very important for me. God, the second person of the Holy Trinity has assumed our nature. Does the ACOE reflect that in the life of their church? My feeling is that EO and OO do, but even Catholics and Protestants don't really do that.

And why have most former ACOE faithful become Muslim? Political pressure surely played a big role... but even in China, where there was no Muslim rule, ACOE faithful became Muslim. Why is that? (Today's Christianity in China has later origins.)
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« Reply #26 on: April 18, 2012, 05:58:14 PM »

I'm not sure why EOs give so much more theological latitude to the OOs than to the ACOE. While they may be a bit further away from us, they're not really Nestorian/Mopsuestian heretics either. One has to appreciate the context of the controversy and the nuances through the ages. We have more in common with the ACOE, I'd wager, than with other Christian bodies. As for icons, the Assyrian churches in Central Asia and China apparently do have them. Further west in the Middle East, they were discarded due to Mohammedan pressure, or so I heard.

While Patriarch Dinkha has repudiated certain teachings of Nestorius, he is still considered a saint by the ACoE, and they reject the Cyrillian Christological language. Until they anathematize Nestorius and accept St. Cyril...they are heretics.

Would you call the Orientals heretics until such time as they accept the Council of Chalcedon?

I would not call them heretics because they do not teach anything contrary to the Orthodox Faith. While the OO do not accept Chalcedon, they recognize the language used by EOs today as Orthodox and also anathematized Eutyches. Whereas, the ACoE rejects Cyrillian language and venerates Nestorius.

But, yet, we have had less dealings with them in general to know much about them. They may venerate Nestorius, but Nestorius himself appears to have anathematized "Nestorianism" before his death. No one cared about it at the time in Alexandria or Constantinople.

Only allegedly did Nestorius recant his extreme dyophysitism. There is a lot of uncertainty that surrounds the authorship of the Bazaar. However, I agree that it is worth dialoguing and researching about. I have no problem with the idea of reunion with the ACoE, as long as we can truly come to a unified Orthodox Faith. Once Nestorius is either anathematized or the Bazaar is authenticated, and until the ACoE can accept the definitions of Cyril and Leo as Orthodox (which they currently do not), no union will occur.

Whereas, on the side of the OO, they have formally lifted anathemas and largely accepted the Chalcedonian language as Orthodox, though they prefer Cyril's earlier formula. Granted, there's still a lot to work out with the OO, but we have agreed that we hold the same faith, and in some areas of the world members from those churches may be married in either church, and even intercommune. None of this is true of the ACoE because we have not yet resolved matters of faith. If the ACoE is found to be Orthodox in their faith, I would gladly welcome them.

And, I do love the Chaldean Church, btw, some of the bravest and most wonderful of saints and martyrs come from them (including my own patron).
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« Reply #27 on: April 18, 2012, 06:07:08 PM »

Surely, unqualifiedly labeling the ACOE as Nestorians is extremely problematic. And it would surely be unfair to judge them without knowing them well. But nonetheless, the reality of the incarnation is something very important for me. God, the second person of the Holy Trinity has assumed our nature. Does the ACOE reflect that in the life of their church? My feeling is that EO and OO do, but even Catholics and Protestants don't really do that.

And why have most former ACOE faithful become Muslim? Political pressure surely played a big role... but even in China, where there was no Muslim rule, ACOE faithful became Muslim. Why is that? (Today's Christianity in China has later origins.)

A large group of Assyrians entered into the Russian Orthodox Church in the early 20th century. The senior bishop of ROCOR was Assyrian, until his death.

I'm not sure how Catholics and Protestants (I hate lumping them all together) don't reflect the reality of the incarnation in their respective ecclesial organizations. I know, the quality of Catholics and Protestants has declined in the last 1,000 and 500 years, respectively, but the Orthodox are no great prize either when it comes to living our faith. Perhaps part of the problem is that the Catholic and Protestant faiths are often (seen at least) to be in flux--what do we believe this year, sort of thing, and this doubtless effects faith life.
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« Reply #28 on: April 18, 2012, 06:12:45 PM »

Surely, unqualifiedly labeling the ACOE as Nestorians is extremely problematic. And it would surely be unfair to judge them without knowing them well. But nonetheless, the reality of the incarnation is something very important for me. God, the second person of the Holy Trinity has assumed our nature. Does the ACOE reflect that in the life of their church? My feeling is that EO and OO do, but even Catholics and Protestants don't really do that.

And why have most former ACOE faithful become Muslim? Political pressure surely played a big role... but even in China, where there was no Muslim rule, ACOE faithful became Muslim. Why is that? (Today's Christianity in China has later origins.)
Actually, most of them became Chaldeans or OO.
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« Reply #29 on: April 18, 2012, 06:23:06 PM »

A large group of Assyrians entered into the Russian Orthodox Church in the early 20th century. The senior bishop of ROCOR was Assyrian, until his death.
Where was that?

As for reflecting the reality of the incarnation, it is hard to explain... let's say, we believe Christ raised up our fallen nature. Protestants seem to believe our nature is still fallen, only the punishment is annuled (simul iustus et peccator, as Luther said).
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« Reply #30 on: April 18, 2012, 06:25:47 PM »

I'm not sure why EOs give so much more theological latitude to the OOs than to the ACOE. While they may be a bit further away from us, they're not really Nestorian/Mopsuestian heretics either.
Take a look at their joint declaration with the Roman Catholics.
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« Reply #31 on: April 18, 2012, 06:35:02 PM »

A large group of Assyrians entered into the Russian Orthodox Church in the early 20th century. The senior bishop of ROCOR was Assyrian, until his death.
Where was that?

As for reflecting the reality of the incarnation, it is hard to explain... let's say, we believe Christ raised up our fallen nature. Protestants seem to believe our nature is still fallen, only the punishment is annuled (simul iustus et peccator, as Luther said).

It was near the city of Urmia, IIRC, near the border of the Russian Empire. They sought Russian protection from the bloodthirsty Turks.

I think that statement of Protestants is accurate, in practice. I seem to remember Fr. Andrew Damick giving a podcast on this topic, but can't remember the jist of what he said--something about imputed righteousness?

Modern Protestants, however, are very far removed (mostly for worse) from their Reformation era leaders. At least Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli all agreed that Our Lady Theotokos is Ever-Virgin and called her Blessed.
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« Reply #32 on: April 18, 2012, 06:36:11 PM »

I'm not sure why EOs give so much more theological latitude to the OOs than to the ACOE. While they may be a bit further away from us, they're not really Nestorian/Mopsuestian heretics either.
Take a look at their joint declaration with the Roman Catholics.

Link? Quote? Some kind of rabid-OO polemic of "See, I told you, the Leonians and Nestorians are in bed together all along!" (The last one was just a JOKE!)
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« Reply #33 on: April 19, 2012, 01:45:01 AM »

I'm not sure why EOs give so much more theological latitude to the OOs than to the ACOE. While they may be a bit further away from us, they're not really Nestorian/Mopsuestian heretics either.
Take a look at their joint declaration with the Roman Catholics.

Link? Quote? Some kind of rabid-OO polemic of "See, I told you, the Leonians and Nestorians are in bed together all along!" (The last one was just a JOKE!)

You don't have to go to a polemic by myself or any other rabid OO for that.  We used to have an EO poster who made that contention:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,23189.msg354227.html#msg354227
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« Reply #34 on: April 19, 2012, 02:29:18 AM »

I'm not sure why EOs give so much more theological latitude to the OOs than to the ACOE. While they may be a bit further away from us, they're not really Nestorian/Mopsuestian heretics either.
Take a look at their joint declaration with the Roman Catholics.

Link? Quote? Some kind of rabid-OO polemic of "See, I told you, the Leonians and Nestorians are in bed together all along!" (The last one was just a JOKE!)

"The humanity to which the Blessed Virgin Mary gave birth always was that of the Son of God himself. That is the reason why the Assyrian Church of the East is praying [to] the Virgin Mary as 'the Mother of Christ our God and Saviour." -Joint Declaration: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Christological_Declaration_Between_the_Catholic_Church_and_the_Assyrian_Church_of_the_East

"The Orthodox position will declare this: The Blessed Mother did not give birth to His Godhead, which is from eternal; but rather she had given birth to His manhood, at the end of time, still it is right to be called 'the Mother of God,' why? Because He who is born of her is at once God and Man. By way of example: The mother of the President of the United States did not give birth to his presidency, she gave birth to the man; and indeed we call her the mother of the President; and again, the Catholicos Patriarch of the East received his office from The Church, and not from his mother who bore him, and we do call her the mother of the Patriarch." -ACotE Catechism
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« Reply #35 on: April 19, 2012, 02:35:19 AM »

After a 6+ month and emotional inquiry to Roman Catholicism, I have just reached a point to where I am almost sure that the Pope is not who he says he is. It was Eastern Orthodoxy that brought me into Apostolic Christianity from Protestantism, and now it seems Roman Catholicism is bringing me back to Eastern Orthodoxy.

Here's a few conversion issues that I face the moment I begin to contemplate this
1. Why not join the Oriental Orthodox church or the Assyrian church of the east instead of Eastern Orthodoxy? At first glance, they seem to have the same credentials as you guys.
2. From my understanding, you guys don't have ecumenical councils anymore, why is that?
3. I hear that some Orthodox churches aren't in communion with each other. Like church A might be in communion with church B and C, but church B isn't in communion with church C. Is this true?

Also, I really don't see this as a problem, but I attended my first divine liturgy (Easter service) and it felt more like a liturgical relay race then a service. The readings were SO fast. Is that normal?

Most importantly, please pray for me as I work out my salvation with fear and trembling,
Thanks for your time if you guys make it to this thread Smiley,
Ryan


Ryan,

EO Churches tend to be more common and easier to find.  Also, you are more likely to find English liturgies there.  For those reasons, it may be better to just concentrate on the EO Church.

A word of advice:  Stay away from the polemics.  Arguing about the faith can be harmful to your faith.
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« Reply #36 on: April 19, 2012, 06:23:14 AM »

1. Why not join the Oriental Orthodox church or the Assyrian church of the east instead of Eastern Orthodoxy? At first glance, they seem to have the same credentials as you guys.
Questions like this can potentially take tremendous amounts of time and study to resolve. Even then, you rely on your own efforts and abilities, hoping you do not overlook some details and come to the wrong conclusion. Save yourself a lot a time and worry, and judge a tree by its fruits. At the core of Orthodox (i.e Eastern) tradition is the three-fold salvific process of purification, illumination, and glorification. While this teaching is regrettably neglected by many people (including clergy and hierarchs) in the modern Church, it is the only cure of the soul. Look at the great multitudes of Orthodox faithful (from all across the globe) who participate in noetic and unceasing prayer. Furthermore, the truth of (Eastern) Orthodoxy is attested to by the nearly two thousand years of glorified individuals (i.e. those who have seen the uncreated energies of God). These people (some of which are alive today), who have actually seen God, can tell you with the certainty of the apostles, that it is the only Church founded by God and the only one with the potential to heal the soul.

Some of the OOs on this board have posted stories of Coptic ascetics being glorified (I remember one reportedly had to veil his face like Moses). How are we to know which accounts are authentic?
Glorified, or the subject of supposed miracles? I would be interested in reading about these individuals (though I have a feeling that their experiences will, just like cases of Roman Catholic mysticism, depart significantly from authentic Orthodox theosis).

1. Why not join the Oriental Orthodox church or the Assyrian church of the east instead of Eastern Orthodoxy? At first glance, they seem to have the same credentials as you guys.
Questions like this can potentially take tremendous amounts of time and study to resolve. Even then, you rely on your own efforts and abilities, hoping you do not overlook some details and come to the wrong conclusion. Save yourself a lot a time and worry, and judge a tree by its fruits. At the core of Orthodox (i.e Eastern) tradition is the three-fold salvific process of purification, illumination, and glorification. While this teaching is regrettably neglected by many people (including clergy and hierarchs) in the modern Church, it is the only cure of the soul. Look at the great multitudes of Orthodox faithful (from all across the globe) who participate in noetic and unceasing prayer. Furthermore, the truth of (Eastern) Orthodoxy is attested to by the nearly two thousand years of glorified individuals (i.e. those who have seen the uncreated energies of God). These people (some of which are alive today), who have actually seen God, can tell you with the certainty of the apostles, that it is the only Church founded by God and the only one with the potential to heal the soul.

Some of the OOs on this board have posted stories of Coptic ascetics being glorified (I remember one reportedly had to veil his face like Moses). How are we to know which accounts are authentic?

By and large, Orthodox do not dogmatize on spiritual phenomena happening amongst the heterodox. It's hard enough to tell from whence comes the spiritual phenomena happening amongst the Orthodox--sometimes even great figures in the Church are deceived, one way or the other. Miracles are not the basis of our faith. They can serve to confirm it, but as Elder Porphyrios, a man who experienced many great miracles said, "The greatest miracle I have seen is that I am the worst sinner in the world, and yet I have Christ for my Savior!"
I think the biggest problem lies in discerning miracles from "miracles". Belief because of miracles, however, is not entirely wrong. Even Christ says in the Gospel of John : "But if I do, though you believe not me, believe the works: that you may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him." The fact that people are legitimately cured (that is, they regain the ability to pray noetically) is a worthy miracle that should suffice as a reason for faith. Even more so is the state of glorification, where individuals no longer require physical sustenance and rest, instead being fed off the divine energies and are bestowed with truth beyond human comprehension. I would even go so far as to say that the miraculous experience of theosis is really the only reason to believe at all (as it is the only thing that differentiates Orthodoxy from superstition and religion).
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« Reply #37 on: April 19, 2012, 09:30:25 AM »

I'm not sure why EOs give so much more theological latitude to the OOs than to the ACOE. While they may be a bit further away from us, they're not really Nestorian/Mopsuestian heretics either.
Take a look at their joint declaration with the Roman Catholics.

Link? Quote? Some kind of rabid-OO polemic of "See, I told you, the Leonians and Nestorians are in bed together all along!" (The last one was just a JOKE!)

"The humanity to which the Blessed Virgin Mary gave birth always was that of the Son of God himself. That is the reason why the Assyrian Church of the East is praying [to] the Virgin Mary as 'the Mother of Christ our God and Saviour." -Joint Declaration: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Christological_Declaration_Between_the_Catholic_Church_and_the_Assyrian_Church_of_the_East

"The Orthodox position will declare this: The Blessed Mother did not give birth to His Godhead, which is from eternal; but rather she had given birth to His manhood, at the end of time, still it is right to be called 'the Mother of God,' why? Because He who is born of her is at once God and Man. By way of example: The mother of the President of the United States did not give birth to his presidency, she gave birth to the man; and indeed we call her the mother of the President; and again, the Catholicos Patriarch of the East received his office from The Church, and not from his mother who bore him, and we do call her the mother of the Patriarch." -ACotE Catechism

"The Word of God, second Person of the Holy Trinity, became incarnate by the power of the Holy Spirit in assuming from the holy Virgin Mary a body animated by a rational soul, with which he was indissolubly united from the moment of his conception. Therefore our Lord Jesus Christ is true God and true man, perfect in his divinity and perfect in his humanity, consubstantial with the Father and consubstantial with us in all things but sin. His divinity and his humanity are united in one person, without confusion or change, without division or separation. In him has been preserved the difference of the natures of divinity and humanity, with all their properties, faculties and operations. But far from constituting "one and another", the divinity and humanity are united in the person of the same and unique Son of God and Lord Jesus Christ, who is the object of a single adoration. Christ therefore is not an "ordinary man" whom God adopted in order to reside in him and inspire him, as in the righteous ones and the prophets. But the same God the Word, begotten of his Father before all worlds without beginning according to his divinity, was born of a mother without a father in the last times according to his humanity." - From the Common Declaration
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« Reply #38 on: April 19, 2012, 02:53:34 PM »

I'm not sure why EOs give so much more theological latitude to the OOs than to the ACOE. While they may be a bit further away from us, they're not really Nestorian/Mopsuestian heretics either.
Take a look at their joint declaration with the Roman Catholics.

Link? Quote? Some kind of rabid-OO polemic of "See, I told you, the Leonians and Nestorians are in bed together all along!" (The last one was just a JOKE!)

"The humanity to which the Blessed Virgin Mary gave birth always was that of the Son of God himself. That is the reason why the Assyrian Church of the East is praying [to] the Virgin Mary as 'the Mother of Christ our God and Saviour." -Joint Declaration: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Christological_Declaration_Between_the_Catholic_Church_and_the_Assyrian_Church_of_the_East

"The Orthodox position will declare this: The Blessed Mother did not give birth to His Godhead, which is from eternal; but rather she had given birth to His manhood, at the end of time, still it is right to be called 'the Mother of God,' why? Because He who is born of her is at once God and Man. By way of example: The mother of the President of the United States did not give birth to his presidency, she gave birth to the man; and indeed we call her the mother of the President; and again, the Catholicos Patriarch of the East received his office from The Church, and not from his mother who bore him, and we do call her the mother of the Patriarch." -ACotE Catechism

"The Word of God, second Person of the Holy Trinity, became incarnate by the power of the Holy Spirit in assuming from the holy Virgin Mary a body animated by a rational soul, with which he was indissolubly united from the moment of his conception. Therefore our Lord Jesus Christ is true God and true man, perfect in his divinity and perfect in his humanity, consubstantial with the Father and consubstantial with us in all things but sin. His divinity and his humanity are united in one person, without confusion or change, without division or separation. In him has been preserved the difference of the natures of divinity and humanity, with all their properties, faculties and operations. But far from constituting "one and another", the divinity and humanity are united in the person of the same and unique Son of God and Lord Jesus Christ, who is the object of a single adoration. Christ therefore is not an "ordinary man" whom God adopted in order to reside in him and inspire him, as in the righteous ones and the prophets. But the same God the Word, begotten of his Father before all worlds without beginning according to his divinity, was born of a mother without a father in the last times according to his humanity." - From the Common Declaration

Hmmm. That's a very interesting paragraph, that multiple times uses the phrase "one person." I hadn't previous read the RC/ACoE Declaration because, obviously, it has nothing to do with us...perhaps I should...
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« Reply #39 on: April 19, 2012, 03:29:31 PM »

I'm not sure why EOs give so much more theological latitude to the OOs than to the ACOE. While they may be a bit further away from us, they're not really Nestorian/Mopsuestian heretics either.
Take a look at their joint declaration with the Roman Catholics.

Link? Quote? Some kind of rabid-OO polemic of "See, I told you, the Leonians and Nestorians are in bed together all along!" (The last one was just a JOKE!)

"The humanity to which the Blessed Virgin Mary gave birth always was that of the Son of God himself. That is the reason why the Assyrian Church of the East is praying [to] the Virgin Mary as 'the Mother of Christ our God and Saviour." -Joint Declaration: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Christological_Declaration_Between_the_Catholic_Church_and_the_Assyrian_Church_of_the_East

"The Orthodox position will declare this: The Blessed Mother did not give birth to His Godhead, which is from eternal; but rather she had given birth to His manhood, at the end of time, still it is right to be called 'the Mother of God,' why? Because He who is born of her is at once God and Man. By way of example: The mother of the President of the United States did not give birth to his presidency, she gave birth to the man; and indeed we call her the mother of the President; and again, the Catholicos Patriarch of the East received his office from The Church, and not from his mother who bore him, and we do call her the mother of the Patriarch." -ACotE Catechism

Blech. That's horribly ambiguous. Was the Babe in the womb of the Blessed Mother of Christ God fully God and fully man? She did not give birth to a nature, but a Person, the God-man.
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« Reply #40 on: April 19, 2012, 03:32:28 PM »

I'm not sure why EOs give so much more theological latitude to the OOs than to the ACOE. While they may be a bit further away from us, they're not really Nestorian/Mopsuestian heretics either.
Take a look at their joint declaration with the Roman Catholics.

Link? Quote? Some kind of rabid-OO polemic of "See, I told you, the Leonians and Nestorians are in bed together all along!" (The last one was just a JOKE!)

"The humanity to which the Blessed Virgin Mary gave birth always was that of the Son of God himself. That is the reason why the Assyrian Church of the East is praying [to] the Virgin Mary as 'the Mother of Christ our God and Saviour." -Joint Declaration: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Christological_Declaration_Between_the_Catholic_Church_and_the_Assyrian_Church_of_the_East

"The Orthodox position will declare this: The Blessed Mother did not give birth to His Godhead, which is from eternal; but rather she had given birth to His manhood, at the end of time, still it is right to be called 'the Mother of God,' why? Because He who is born of her is at once God and Man. By way of example: The mother of the President of the United States did not give birth to his presidency, she gave birth to the man; and indeed we call her the mother of the President; and again, the Catholicos Patriarch of the East received his office from The Church, and not from his mother who bore him, and we do call her the mother of the Patriarch." -ACotE Catechism

"The Word of God, second Person of the Holy Trinity, became incarnate by the power of the Holy Spirit in assuming from the holy Virgin Mary a body animated by a rational soul, with which he was indissolubly united from the moment of his conception. Therefore our Lord Jesus Christ is true God and true man, perfect in his divinity and perfect in his humanity, consubstantial with the Father and consubstantial with us in all things but sin. His divinity and his humanity are united in one person, without confusion or change, without division or separation. In him has been preserved the difference of the natures of divinity and humanity, with all their properties, faculties and operations. But far from constituting "one and another", the divinity and humanity are united in the person of the same and unique Son of God and Lord Jesus Christ, who is the object of a single adoration. Christ therefore is not an "ordinary man" whom God adopted in order to reside in him and inspire him, as in the righteous ones and the prophets. But the same God the Word, begotten of his Father before all worlds without beginning according to his divinity, was born of a mother without a father in the last times according to his humanity." - From the Common Declaration

That's 180 degrees better.
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« Reply #41 on: April 19, 2012, 03:33:50 PM »

#1) You can join the Oriental Orthodox Church if you want; but it seems kind of strange because Oriental Churches are very rare to find and Eastern ones are easier. Most people would agree though that the Oriental and Eastern Orthodox are still followers of the same faith, even if it is not official. So go with whichever one is closest to you. As for the Assyrian Church of the East, I think that they are Nestorians or something; they are considered heretical to both the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, so I would stay away from them.

#2) We just have not had one very recently, but that does not mean that we cannot have one if we do not want to. It is just that no issue has really come up which is large enough yet where the Church has decided to have one, however, I do think that one is in the process of being had right now.

#3) It is the beauty of having an autocephelous based Church. We can have our disagreements over smaller issues yet still adhere to the same faith. For example, Moscow and the EC have been having a feud for quite a while but they are still followers of the same faith and have their own jurisdictions.  But, there is a difference between having a feud and still following the same faith between having a feud and becoming schismatic. You should not join a shismatic Church.
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« Reply #42 on: April 19, 2012, 03:37:18 PM »

Quote
"The humanity to which the Blessed Virgin Mary gave birth always was that of the Son of God himself. That is the reason why the Assyrian Church of the East is praying [to] the Virgin Mary as 'the Mother of Christ our God and Saviour." -Joint Declaration: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Christological_Declaration_Between_the_Catholic_Church_and_the_Assyrian_Church_of_the_East
After reading this joint declaration, I can only think of the RC saying, "Oh, you can keep your canon law and bishops, and beliefs, and everything...Just bow your knee to Rome and we'll worry about everything else later....."

PP
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« Reply #43 on: April 19, 2012, 03:43:40 PM »

That's 180 degrees better.
Probably because it's the part the RC's wrote.  Wink

It only denies the most coarse adoptionism, however, and still allows nestorian weaseling.
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« Reply #44 on: April 19, 2012, 03:45:50 PM »

Quote
"The humanity to which the Blessed Virgin Mary gave birth always was that of the Son of God himself. That is the reason why the Assyrian Church of the East is praying [to] the Virgin Mary as 'the Mother of Christ our God and Saviour." -Joint Declaration: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Christological_Declaration_Between_the_Catholic_Church_and_the_Assyrian_Church_of_the_East
After reading this joint declaration, I can only think of the RC saying, "Oh, you can keep your canon law and bishops, and beliefs, and everything...Just bow your knee to Rome and we'll worry about everything else later....."

PP

That's what happened with some Eastern Catholics...

Yeah, the quotes that Nicholas gave aren't very convincing. However, the paragraph that James gave is interesting, since it seems to repudiate the idea that Christ is two separate persons.
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