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Author Topic: Some questions for TomΣ  (Read 3576 times) Average Rating: 0
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optxogokcoc
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« on: October 19, 2004, 10:18:20 AM »

Lord has risen.



Your information, on this forum, provides these "interesting" statements.
 
(In the signature it says)
On a mission to rescue the Orthodox Church from the mistakes of its past.
To help the Church find its way once again into the Truth of Christ!

(And under the icon it says)
The First Orthodox Protestant


So, withour further adue, can you please explain what are you talknig about?




Are you openly stating that Holy Orthodox Catholic Church of the East has made mistakes in the past and in stating so you are expunging the science which is contrary to the teaching of the Holy Tradition thus commiting heresy of contardiction to the Dogmatic Theology of the Holy Church?

Are you openly stating that there is anyone (including you) that is needed " to help the Church find its way once again into the Truth of Christ"? Which brings into conclusion that Church has somehow lost HER way and truth (which does sound so similar to many neo-american heresies or to be more correct incaranations of the old ariano-iconoclastical heresies into new american protestantism). And in these confirmations you, in clear mind, hold onto heresy of contradicting the Holy Tradition of the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church of the East.

Are you openly commiting the heresy of division from the Body of Christ thus self-excommunicating yourselve from the Body of Christ when stating, contrary to the Holy Tradition, that somehow The Holy Orthodox Catholic Church of the East needs some (God help us all) "reformation" (similar to anti-latin reformation of the middle ages). And in doing so, are you in clear mind, hold onto heresy of division from the Body of Christ in comparing the Holy Church to the heresy of papism and yourselve to the heresy of protestantism?

May God help us all to hold the Holy Faith. And may God help all those who, blinded by the works of the devil and filled by the heretical opinions, have declined the mercy of the Lord and become divided from the Holy Body of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ so that they may, once again, become partakers in the Divine mercy of salvation.

Orthodoxy or death.
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« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2004, 02:34:40 PM »

Sounds more like an indictment than a question.
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« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2004, 03:53:51 PM »

Indeed...sounds like he's made up his mind.

The question's been going around in my mind, too...why are you part of a communion with which you fundamentally disagree, sir?
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« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2004, 06:30:26 PM »

Indeed...sounds like he's made up his mind.

The question's been going around in my mind, too...why are you part of a communion with which you fundamentally disagree, sir?

And certainly a valid question -- I will have to take a while to actually come to an agreement in my mind on certain issues in order to to give you an answer.

Gimme a couple of days.
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« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2004, 07:13:06 PM »

1) I personally don't agree with TomS's very blatant and flashy way of expressing his disagreements with the Church.

2) I also don't think that optxogokcoc's post was the right way to go about things. This should be taken up privately.  I do not want this thread to errupt so please take things more cautiously everyone or I will have to close it.

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« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2004, 08:45:46 PM »

Just checked out TomS's last 50 posts and I don't see anything blatant or flashy in them.

He's obviously a man who still thinks for himself and has the guts to be unpretentious.

I think the What and How of the post by Orthodoxos was very blatant and rude. It was offensive and I was ashamed for the way it was put.

If that would be the kind of speech and attitude in my church, I would have left in a hurry and the Orthodox faith with it.

TomS you are a straight guy and hopefully will stay that way.  The Lord looks at the intentions of our heart, and He alone will be our Judge. Thank God for that !

Kind regards, Shiloah
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« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2004, 08:46:05 PM »

This is a sensitive issue, to be sure.  I understand, TomΣ; take all the time you need.

Anastasios, would you rather we took this up via PM?  Or perhaps TomΣ could post a time for the chatroom where those who want can come and discuss?
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« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2004, 08:53:48 PM »

I would prefer either of the two. I know Tom personally and know he is struggling sincerely. But at the same time other people have expressed their frustration with his diatribes against Church Tradition, and I get tired of seeing deliberately provacative signature blocks.

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« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2004, 09:03:05 PM »

Just checked out TomS's last 50 posts and I don't see anything blatant or flashy in them.

He's obviously a man who still thinks for himself and has the guts to be unpretentious.

I think the What and How of the post by Orthodoxos was very blatant and rude. It was offensive and I was ashamed for the way it was put.

If that would be the kind of speech and attitude in my church, I would have left in a hurry and the Orthodox faith with it.

TomS you are a straight guy and hopefully will stay that way.  The Lord looks at the intentions of our heart, and He alone will be our Judge. Thank God for that !

Kind regards, Shiloah

Here are some examples of what I take issue at:

"So in some areas the RC's are becoming more correct in their practice of Chrsitianity.
Although I was referring more to the "made up traditions" of the ancient Church. Such as the "worship" of Mary."

"No. I am trying to help the Church shed the remnants of its misguided Roman Catholic heritage. And I am happy to say that it is working:"

"Do any of you think for one second that Christ would condemn anyone simply because they were sprinkled instead of dunked?Huh!!!!!! It is the ACT of Baptism - the CONFESSION of belief that is important and not the specific way it was done. I reject this teaching from any Church."

"The time has passed for talk and reasoning with these people - it is time for war withing the GOA. It is time for Americans (not those who still consider themselves Greek-Americans) to assert their control over the GOA."

"He's an idiot."

Now take those examples AND add in his signature block ("on a mission...") and you get the idea that Tom is being provacative on purpose.

This is an Orthodox forum. As such, Orthodox have a right not to have the Orthodox Church constantly attacked on it.  To some extent we all disagree on what is essential and what is not. But a focused and continued use of deliberately provacative posting style is going to get people ticked off, and we moderators have to weigh the two sides when something like this happens.

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« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2004, 09:24:07 PM »

I agree, but then why didn't you take him aside much sooner and discuss the matter with him privately? Instead here comes someone with an attitude and a choice of words that give me cold shivers . Is it time for the Inquisition again?

In those two opponents we have maybe two extremes. Maybe Tom can re-evaluate his signature blocks and his boyish attitude and just  'fast'  other fl'e'shy things for a season while he takes his burden to the Lord in prayer? And then we can all pass on playing judge and jury and try to live peacefully with each other?
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« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2004, 09:36:29 PM »

Shiloah,

This has been going on for almost two years.  I know Tom personally and believe me, we have discussed this in private.  It is very difficult for us moderators to balance Tom's privledges with other users' privledges to make it fair.

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« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2004, 09:44:46 PM »

O.K. Then give him a chance to re-evaluate and then decide whether you want to put him in quarantaine or send him home Smiley
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« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2004, 10:08:16 PM »

This has been going on for almost two years.  

I don't agree with this. I think that up until last December, and we all know what happened then (nudge, nudge, wink, wink), I was pretty supportive.

It is very difficult for us moderators to balance Tom's privledges with other users' privledges to make it fair.

I am sorry that I have put you all in this position. I will cease and desist.  Embarrassed
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optxogokcoc
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« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2004, 05:57:38 AM »

Posted by: TomΣ  Posted on: Today at 03:04:40 AM  
Sounds more like an indictment than a question.

I am not assuming authority. I am asking questions.

Posted by: Pedro  Posted on: Today at 04:23:51 AM  
Indeed...sounds like he's made up his mind.

You are somewhat correct. I did make up my mind. Not to a full extent though.

Posted by: TomΣ  Posted on: Today at 07:00:26 AM  
And certainly a valid question -- I will have to take a while to actually come to an agreement in my mind on certain issues in order to to give you an answer.
Gimme a couple of days.

You are most welcome.

Posted by: anastasios  Posted on: Today at 07:43:06 AM  
I also don't think that optxogokcoc's post was the right way to go about things. This should be taken up privately.  I do not want this thread to errupt so please take things more cautiously everyone or I will have to close it.

I do look at the Church (and at this forum) as a community. So, there is nothing private when it comes to an incorrect statements on a public forum. This is my view, might be wrong.

Posted by: Shiloah  Posted on: Today at 09:15:46 AM  
Just checked out TomS's last 50 posts and I don't see anything blatant or flashy in them.

Already answered, thanks to administrators efforts.

He's obviously a man who still thinks for himself and has the guts to be unpretentious.
Maybe, nevertheless this does not make him any less incorrect, that is, heterodox.

I think the What and How of the post by Orthodoxos was very blatant and rude. It was offensive and I was ashamed for the way it was put.
It is your oppinion, might I answer? In this world there is nothing more important than the purity of the Lords truth as preserved by the Church. Nothing. If I did commit sin of uncharitable behaviour, so be it. God knows why.

If that would be the kind of speech and attitude in my church, I would have left in a hurry and the Orthodox faith with it.
I am very sorry to hear this. I do not condition my faith by the attitude of sinful members of His Body. Again, very sorry to hear this.

TomS you are a straight guy and hopefully will stay that way.  The Lord looks at the intentions of our heart, and He alone will be our Judge. Thank God for that !
I can not comment on the first part of this statement, due to me not knowing him. However on the second, all I can say is Amin.

Posted by: TomΣ  Posted on: Today at 10:38:16 AM  
I am sorry that I have put you all in this position. I will cease and desist.
 
I do not think this is the way.


In my oppinion, no body here is on trial. Tom does not even have to answer. It came to my attention (and I am a very junior member) that he expunges incorrect doctrine. All I wish to know is why?

Lord has risen.  

 


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« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2004, 08:31:10 AM »

Orthodoxos, your self-righteous attitude is disgusting and horrifying. If that is the way people are in the country you come from, no wonder they don't get along with their neighbors since centuries.

I see you edited your bio. Now you're hiding yourself. What are you so ashamed of? What's left of you is the great pretender...
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« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2004, 09:01:35 AM »

What can I say Shiloah, what can I say?

... those who rightly seek Him shall find peace. (Prov. 16,8. LXX)

Orthodoxy or death.
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« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2004, 09:16:33 AM »

Quote
I do look at the Church (and at this forum) as a community. So, there is nothing private when it comes to an incorrect statements on a public forum. This is my view, might be wrong.

Matthew 18:15

"Moreover if they brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone:  if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained they brother."

Seems like you missed a step, orthodoxos.  And the only reason I'm saying this here instead of via PM is because you've made it quite clear that you'd rather have such things brought up first publically.
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« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2004, 09:20:23 AM »

You know, it is just not worth responding to these questions. It would be just a waste of time for all of us.

My positions are approached from a secular/historical perspective and most other Orthodox simply accept everything because the Church tells them it is and always has been that way.
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« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2004, 09:28:05 AM »

Dear Shultz, Lord has risen.

I do think that you are missreading this verse. And this is why.

TOM did not trespass against ME. He never mentioned me and never did anything against ME. THAT IS WHY I did not go and tell him his fault between me and him alone.

He did, however, made statements that are AGAINST the teaching of the CHURCH and in so teaching of this forum.

This is  A VERY REASON why I have made it quite clear that I'd rather have such things brought up first publically.  
I might make somthing clear. Heresy is ONE thing, beeing a politicaly incorrect person who points at it as ANOTHER.

Or, I might be the only one here thinking this way.
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« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2004, 09:47:32 AM »

I think you are taking it Scripture literally.  The Fathers constantly exhort us to "cover the sins of others", be they against us personally or against the Church as a whole or her members.  It seems like common sense to me (and apparently to others) that if you have concerns about Tom's words, you should have first taken it up with him and asked him your questions via PM, instead of dragging him out into the arena here, so to speak.  None of us are judges.  

I don't think anyone is questioning your concerns, but the manner in which you brought them up.  We are called to be humble and to not trumpet the failings and stumblings of others.  By doing so we run the risk of pride.  Even if we don't end up falling into the sin of pride, playing the with fire, so to speak, is dangerous enough to avoid it.
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« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2004, 10:01:28 AM »

Dear Schultz, I have to say again, I really do not care what people find nice or not if the protection of the teaching of the Church is concened. In my oppinion fathers did not care eaither, or you consider ecumenical councils against heretics (not that this has any similarity with problem at hand) a private afair.

As far as egsegesis of this verse is concerned, IT DOES TALK ABOUT PERSONAL TRESPASS or personal insult. I do not hold Tome to have trespassed againt me in any way.

And as far as I am concerned the only reason I would consider to hold water, when it comes to keepin this private is because of the converts or inquirers into the faith. Having said this, I still hold that science of the Church and protection of the same comes on top.

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« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2004, 10:02:39 AM »

If our dear TomΣ, "Doubtful Tom", was not an Orthodox (at least nominally) he would have been censured before on this forum in my opinion. He has chosen to argue, scandalize, and malign the Church in public on his own. I understand optxogokcoc's frustration and motivation in this regard. But whether we Orthodox like it or no, still we must Love him.
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« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2004, 10:08:47 AM »

I was unaware that

a) You considered yourself to be on par with the Church Fathers

and

b)  Tom's noticeably cynical and public struggles with certain aspects of the Faith were causing anyone else to deviate from the Truth.  

I was also unaware that you consider this little bit of cyberspace to be the equivalent of an Ecumenical Council.  The simple fact remains is that your arrogance has caused you to believe that you are nothing more than a bored worker who is most likely using company time to judge someone whom you've never met who is obviously still coming to terms with Christ's Church.

Pardon us all for not being perfect, holy father Orthodoxos.
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« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2004, 10:10:14 AM »

If our dear TomΣ, "Doubtful Tom", was not an Orthodox (at least nominally) he would have been censured before on this forum in my opinion. He has chosen to argue, scandalize, and malign the Church in public on his own. I understand optxogokcoc's frustration and motivation in this regard. But whether we Orthodox like it or no, still we must Love him.
Demetri

And part of that love is to give him the respect he's due as a child of God.  He has just stated that he will "cease and desist" from doing the things that annoy most of us, but that apparently wasn't good enough for Orthodoxos.
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« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2004, 10:11:44 AM »

Perhaps we should rename OC.net to TomS.net? Wink

R
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« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2004, 10:14:36 AM »

He has chosen to argue, scandalize, and malign the Church in public on his own.

That was never my intention and I don't believe that is what I have done.

I have never said "The Orthodox Church is bogus and I reject all of it's teachings" I am simply bringing up things that I consider inconsistencies and that are important to ME.

Why is it so hard for you all to understand this? Why do you think that I am simply trying to cause trouble?
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« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2004, 10:16:57 AM »

Perhaps we should rename OC.net to TomS.net? Wink

R

Maybe just give our TomΣ his very own board with a "Don't let this happen to you"  avatar? ( Just kidding!)
Seriously, he'll find no answers on the Internet. He knows that, I'm sure.  Wink

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« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2004, 10:17:21 AM »

Shultz, you said it all. Thanks be to the Lord because He knows why and with what intent we say, write and think what we say, write and think.

I will not join you in this unorthodox presentation and personal attacks.

Lord has risen.
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« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2004, 10:17:45 AM »

Perhaps we should rename OC.net to TomS.net? Wink

If that was the way it worked, then this boards name would have been changed to the "Vicki and Br. Max Show" a while back!  Grin
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« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2004, 10:20:30 AM »

If that was the way it worked, then this boards name would have been changed to the "Vicki and Br. Max Show" a while back!  Grin

Both of whom I miss here.

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« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2004, 10:29:40 AM »

OK this thread has really gotten off track. I am going to close it.

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