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Author Topic: Weird jurisdiction type question  (Read 499 times) Average Rating: 0
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scamandrius
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« on: April 15, 2012, 09:45:45 PM »

Ok, this is going to sound strange so bear with me and hear me out, please.  I've been wrestling with this for a while.

I love Greek Orthodoxy. I prefer its expression of Orthodox Christianity over the Slavic type (no offense). I'm a chanter and frankly the Greek customs just make more sense to me as far as my worship expression. However, that said, I am to the point where I can no longer abide the Revised Julian (i.e. Gregorian) calendar and the many liturgical innovations that seem to pervade the church.  I'm tired of priests who want to get things done quickly, who skip over parts of the liturgy and who are more interested in committing themselves, the faithful and the churches to Greek festivals than Greek Orthodoxy. 

I know that there are no Old Calendar Greek churches here in the USA save for non-canonical ones (no offense intended, Fr. Anastasios) it is important to me to remain in one of the canonical churches. As a side note, I truly hope that if another ecumenical council is called the issues which separate the canonical churches from the non-canonical ones will be resolved. 

Recently, the Roman Catholic Church set up an Anglican Ordinariate to receive disaffected Anglicans upset with the Anglican communion's move towards clearly heterodox teachings and practices.  The Anglican Ordinariate will allow these former Anglicans to retain a great number of their Anglican customs and traditions yet still be Roman Catholic.  Is it possible that maybe one of the Russian Churches here in the USA (e.g. ROCOR, MP) would allow a Greek Ordinariate to allow those of us who want to retain the customs and practices of Greek Orthodoxy, preserving the language, the chant, the liturgy, and to follow the Julian (i.e. Old) Calendar?  Has this ever been mentioned by anyone else?  Or is this just a pipe dream?
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« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2012, 10:07:03 PM »

Recently, the Roman Catholic Church set up an Anglican Ordinariate to receive disaffected Anglicans upset with the Anglican communion's move towards clearly heterodox teachings and practices.  The Anglican Ordinariate will allow these former Anglicans to retain a great number of their Anglican customs and traditions yet still be Roman Catholic.  Is it possible that maybe one of the Russian Churches here in the USA (e.g. ROCOR, MP) would allow a Greek Ordinariate to allow those of us who want to retain the customs and practices of Greek Orthodoxy, preserving the language, the chant, the liturgy, and to follow the Julian (i.e. Old) Calendar?  Has this ever been mentioned by anyone else?  Or is this just a pipe dream?

I can't imagine the Greek jurisdictions being happy with something like that.
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« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2012, 11:35:34 PM »

Recently, the Roman Catholic Church set up an Anglican Ordinariate to receive disaffected Anglicans upset with the Anglican communion's move towards clearly heterodox teachings and practices.  The Anglican Ordinariate will allow these former Anglicans to retain a great number of their Anglican customs and traditions yet still be Roman Catholic.  Is it possible that maybe one of the Russian Churches here in the USA (e.g. ROCOR, MP) would allow a Greek Ordinariate to allow those of us who want to retain the customs and practices of Greek Orthodoxy, preserving the language, the chant, the liturgy, and to follow the Julian (i.e. Old) Calendar?  Has this ever been mentioned by anyone else?  Or is this just a pipe dream?

I can't imagine the Greek jurisdictions being happy with something like that.

Scamandrius, also remember that the situation is not the same everywhere in the "Greek world".

Our archbishop (God grant him many years!) would never allow some of the crap that goes on in your part of the world.

It is lovely, by the way, to have a convert prefer our ways to those of the Slavs.

PS: I agree that the calendar situation sucks, but I wonder if it would be such a problem for you if it were the only problem, you know what I mean?
« Last Edit: April 15, 2012, 11:36:29 PM by akimori makoto » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2012, 02:35:34 AM »

Ok, this is going to sound strange so bear with me and hear me out, please.  I've been wrestling with this for a while.

I love Greek Orthodoxy. I prefer its expression of Orthodox Christianity over the Slavic type (no offense). I'm a chanter and frankly the Greek customs just make more sense to me as far as my worship expression. However, that said, I am to the point where I can no longer abide the Revised Julian (i.e. Gregorian) calendar and the many liturgical innovations that seem to pervade the church.  I'm tired of priests who want to get things done quickly, who skip over parts of the liturgy and who are more interested in committing themselves, the faithful and the churches to Greek festivals than Greek Orthodoxy.  

I know that there are no Old Calendar Greek churches here in the USA save for non-canonical ones (no offense intended, Fr. Anastasios) it is important to me to remain in one of the canonical churches. As a side note, I truly hope that if another ecumenical council is called the issues which separate the canonical churches from the non-canonical ones will be resolved.  

Recently, the Roman Catholic Church set up an Anglican Ordinariate to receive disaffected Anglicans upset with the Anglican communion's move towards clearly heterodox teachings and practices.  The Anglican Ordinariate will allow these former Anglicans to retain a great number of their Anglican customs and traditions yet still be Roman Catholic.  Is it possible that maybe one of the Russian Churches here in the USA (e.g. ROCOR, MP) would allow a Greek Ordinariate to allow those of us who want to retain the customs and practices of Greek Orthodoxy, preserving the language, the chant, the liturgy, and to follow the Julian (i.e. Old) Calendar?  Has this ever been mentioned by anyone else?  Or is this just a pipe dream?

My experience in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America is that over the past 30 years, there has been a very substantial minimization of Greek culture, aside from Grecian festivals, which are fund raisers attracting overwhelmingly the non-parish community.  I've read that this is not true among parishes in New York City and its environs, Chicago, and much of the Metropolis of New Jersey.  Would the poster care to generally describe where is this parish with it's Greek ethnic emphasis?  I can't believe there isn't a suburban parish in the vicinity that avoids ethnic matters.

I recall back in 1976, the year of the American Bicentennial, the leadership of the Holy Archdiocese during Archbishop Iakovos' tenure was shocked at the aggressive negative reaction to its intent to conduct a Bi-Annual Clergy-Laity Congress in Greece; the extend of which the Archdiocese changed its position and scheduled it to be conducted in Philadelphia.  That incident was instructive as to what was happening in the parishes at that time.  A few year later, immigration from Greece essentially ended.  Greek-American culture is very much a side line in the overwhelming majority of GOAA parishes these days.

Due to mixed marriages, the ethnicity of parish membership today is far more diverse than it was among the prior three generations; although it remains a Greek-American majority, typically.  I know among my GOAA parish's youth (I recently assisted during a well attended a Great Friday retreat) there are a majority of young people who possess a 25% Greek-American ethnic background.  I just computed, in my parish's nearly 46 year history, among 11 assistant priests, including 6 liturgical assistants who are not full-time, 5 were not Greek-Americans.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2012, 03:07:15 AM by Basil 320 » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2012, 03:14:47 AM »

Recently, the Roman Catholic Church set up an Anglican Ordinariate to receive disaffected Anglicans upset with the Anglican communion's move towards clearly heterodox teachings and practices.  The Anglican Ordinariate will allow these former Anglicans to retain a great number of their Anglican customs and traditions yet still be Roman Catholic.  Is it possible that maybe one of the Russian Churches here in the USA (e.g. ROCOR, MP) would allow a Greek Ordinariate to allow those of us who want to retain the customs and practices of Greek Orthodoxy, preserving the language, the chant, the liturgy, and to follow the Julian (i.e. Old) Calendar?  Has this ever been mentioned by anyone else?  Or is this just a pipe dream?

I can't imagine the Greek jurisdictions being happy with something like that.

Scamandrius, also remember that the situation is not the same everywhere in the "Greek world".

Our archbishop (God grant him many years!) would never allow some of the crap that goes on in your part of the world.

It is lovely, by the way, to have a convert prefer our ways to those of the Slavs.

PS: I agree that the calendar situation sucks, but I wonder if it would be such a problem for you if it were the only problem, you know what I mean?

I resent and take issue with this claim,

"Our archbishop...would never allow some of the "crap" that goes on in your part of the world."

What is the "crap" to which are you referring?  GOAA parishes provide the Divine Services and ministries consistent with Orthodox ecclesiology.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2012, 03:22:40 AM by Basil 320 » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2012, 03:22:53 AM »

Recently, the Roman Catholic Church set up an Anglican Ordinariate to receive disaffected Anglicans upset with the Anglican communion's move towards clearly heterodox teachings and practices.  The Anglican Ordinariate will allow these former Anglicans to retain a great number of their Anglican customs and traditions yet still be Roman Catholic.  Is it possible that maybe one of the Russian Churches here in the USA (e.g. ROCOR, MP) would allow a Greek Ordinariate to allow those of us who want to retain the customs and practices of Greek Orthodoxy, preserving the language, the chant, the liturgy, and to follow the Julian (i.e. Old) Calendar?  Has this ever been mentioned by anyone else?  Or is this just a pipe dream?

I can't imagine the Greek jurisdictions being happy with something like that.

Scamandrius, also remember that the situation is not the same everywhere in the "Greek world".

Our archbishop (God grant him many years!) would never allow some of the crap that goes on in your part of the world.

It is lovely, by the way, to have a convert prefer our ways to those of the Slavs.

PS: I agree that the calendar situation sucks, but I wonder if it would be such a problem for you if it were the only problem, you know what I mean?

I resent and take issue with this claim, "Our archbishop...would never allow some of the "crap" that goes on in your part of the world."  To what "crap" are you referring?  GOAA parishes are bastions of Orthodox spirituality.

Apologies for speaking so flippantly, especially from the other side of the world. I will admit I was commenting on the basis of a fair bit of hearsay and youtube videos involving organs.

My point was that there is not some virus of ecumenism and laxity infecting the whole of the Greek Church, even if it exists in some or many places. I hope we can agree on that!
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« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2012, 05:18:33 AM »

Ok, in the tone you used in Reply #5, I will not take issue with this comment.  Thank you.  Christos Anesti!
« Last Edit: April 16, 2012, 05:22:47 AM by Basil 320 » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2012, 10:13:04 AM »

Quote
Recently, the Roman Catholic Church set up an Anglican Ordinariate to receive disaffected Anglicans upset with the Anglican communion's move towards clearly heterodox teachings and practices.  The Anglican Ordinariate will allow these former Anglicans to retain a great number of their Anglican customs and traditions yet still be Roman Catholic
That sounds familiar Wink

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« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2012, 11:30:32 AM »

Christos anesti!
Recently, the Roman Catholic Church set up an Anglican Ordinariate to receive disaffected Anglicans upset with the Anglican communion's move towards clearly heterodox teachings and practices.  The Anglican Ordinariate will allow these former Anglicans to retain a great number of their Anglican customs and traditions yet still be Roman Catholic.  Is it possible that maybe one of the Russian Churches here in the USA (e.g. ROCOR, MP) would allow a Greek Ordinariate to allow those of us who want to retain the customs and practices of Greek Orthodoxy, preserving the language, the chant, the liturgy, and to follow the Julian (i.e. Old) Calendar?  Has this ever been mentioned by anyone else?  Or is this just a pipe dream?

I can't imagine the Greek jurisdictions being happy with something like that.

Scamandrius, also remember that the situation is not the same everywhere in the "Greek world".

Our archbishop (God grant him many years!) would never allow some of the crap that goes on in your part of the world.

It is lovely, by the way, to have a convert prefer our ways to those of the Slavs.

PS: I agree that the calendar situation sucks, but I wonder if it would be such a problem for you if it were the only problem, you know what I mean?
I thought that there was an Old Calendar jurisdiction in your neck of the woods.  I thought Ozgeorge belonged to it IIRC.

There is something like that here.  A few blocks from us is a Church that was Old Calendarist, then went under Fr. Efrem I think, and now are in some special jurisdiction in GOARCH.

Scamandaris:for some reason, I was thinking you were WRO.
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« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2012, 02:14:19 PM »

Recently, the Roman Catholic Church set up an Anglican Ordinariate to receive disaffected Anglicans upset with the Anglican communion's move towards clearly heterodox teachings and practices.  The Anglican Ordinariate will allow these former Anglicans to retain a great number of their Anglican customs and traditions yet still be Roman Catholic.  Is it possible that maybe one of the Russian Churches here in the USA (e.g. ROCOR, MP) would allow a Greek Ordinariate to allow those of us who want to retain the customs and practices of Greek Orthodoxy, preserving the language, the chant, the liturgy, and to follow the Julian (i.e. Old) Calendar?  Has this ever been mentioned by anyone else?  Or is this just a pipe dream?

I can't imagine the Greek jurisdictions being happy with something like that.

Scamandrius, also remember that the situation is not the same everywhere in the "Greek world".

Our archbishop (God grant him many years!) would never allow some of the crap that goes on in your part of the world.

It is lovely, by the way, to have a convert prefer our ways to those of the Slavs.

PS: I agree that the calendar situation sucks, but I wonder if it would be such a problem for you if it were the only problem, you know what I mean?

I resent and take issue with this claim,

"Our archbishop...would never allow some of the "crap" that goes on in your part of the world."

What is the "crap" to which are you referring?  GOAA parishes provide the Divine Services and ministries consistent with Orthodox ecclesiology.

I agree with Basil on this one, his Archbishop is mine as well - although we are not Greek. Frankly neither the current Archbiship, nor his illustrious predecessor of thrice Blessed memory - +Iakovos - were particularly fond of 'crap' - but believe me - they both knew it when they saw it.

The Orthodox church is not an Epcot-like museum designed to 'evoke' something that is dead. Seems to me that way too many are fascinated with the externals of the Faith to such a degree that they denigrate the 'internals' and the real world in which we have to minister - be we clergy or involved laity - have to work within in this 'realm'.
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« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2012, 03:57:46 PM »

Uh, don't forget Aug., '96 to Aug., '99, the era of Archbishop Spyridon, who was Archbishop Demetrios' predecessor.
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« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2012, 04:15:22 PM »

Uh, don't forget Aug., '96 to Aug., '99, the era of Archbishop Spyridon, who was Archbishop Demetrios' predecessor.

I didn't mention him.... Wink
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