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Author Topic: Comparison between Josaphat Kuncevyc and Mark of Ephesus  (Read 8392 times) Average Rating: 0
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J Michael
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« Reply #135 on: April 27, 2012, 12:44:13 PM »

If the truth of the faith hinges on yet another of the endless interreligious and interethnic squabbles in Poland, which are in turn byproducts of the endless mess between Poland and Russia, then it becomes a faith that's like the Mandaeans- you're born into it, or you're outside it forever. Good luck to you if you didn't happen to pick the right parents.

What Russia? Russia hadn't been involved with that case until about 30 years after Kuncewicz' death.
Russia is always involved as the scapegoat as to the failure of Brest.  Look at the assumption of the Vatican, the Polish government and Latin hierarchy, and the UGCC that the Orthodox Ukrainians etc. would rush to the Vatican at the fall of the Romanovs.  The dismal failure of Poland's Revindication Campaigns, the "Neo-Union" and Card. d'Herbigny etc. took them by complete surprise.

Always the problem, particularly in the west, when the clergy get intoxicated by their relationships with secular rulers.

Sounds to me like a case of the pot calling the kettle black.  laugh
A big 'ol black pot calling a little grey kettle, black.

Yup.
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« Reply #136 on: April 27, 2012, 01:33:38 PM »

If the truth of the faith hinges on yet another of the endless interreligious and interethnic squabbles in Poland, which are in turn byproducts of the endless mess between Poland and Russia, then it becomes a faith that's like the Mandaeans- you're born into it, or you're outside it forever. Good luck to you if you didn't happen to pick the right parents.

What Russia? Russia hadn't been involved with that case until about 30 years after Kuncewicz' death.
Russia is always involved as the scapegoat as to the failure of Brest.  Look at the assumption of the Vatican, the Polish government and Latin hierarchy, and the UGCC that the Orthodox Ukrainians etc. would rush to the Vatican at the fall of the Romanovs.  The dismal failure of Poland's Revindication Campaigns, the "Neo-Union" and Card. d'Herbigny etc. took them by complete surprise.

Always the problem, particularly in the west, when the clergy get intoxicated by their relationships with secular rulers.

Sounds to me like a case of the pot calling the kettle black.  laugh
A big 'ol black pot calling a little grey kettle, black.

Yup.
Quote
The Dictates of the Pope
1.That the Roman church was founded by God alone.
2.That the Roman pontiff alone can with right be called universal.
3.That he alone can depose or reinstate bishops.
4.That, in a council his legate, even if a lower grade, is above all bishops, and can pass sentence of deposition against them.
5.That the pope may depose the absent.
6.That, among other things, we ought not to remain in the same house with those excommunicated by him.
7.That for him alone is it lawful, according to the needs of the time, to make new laws, to assemble together new congregations, to make an abbey of a canonry; and, on the other hand, to divide a rich bishopric and unite the poor ones.
8.That he alone may use the imperial insignia.
9.That of the pope alone all princes shall kiss the feet.
10.That his name alone shall be spoken in the churches.
11.That this is the only name in the world.
12.That it may be permitted to him to depose emperors.
13.That he may be permitted to transfer bishops if need be.
14.That he has power to ordain a clerk of any church he may wish.
15.That he who is ordained by him may preside over another church, but may not hold a subordinate position; and that such a one may not receive a higher grade from any bishop.
16.That no synod shall be called a general one without his order.
17.That no chapter and no book shall be considered canonical without his authority.
18.That a sentence passed by him may be retracted by no one; and that he himself, alone of all, may retract it.
19.That he himself may be judged by no one.
20.That no one shall dare to condemn one who appeals to the apostolic chair.
21.That to the latter should be referred the more important cases of every church.
22.That the Roman church has never erred; nor will it err to all eternity, the Scripture bearing witness.
23.That the Roman pontiff, if he have been canonically ordained, is undoubtedly made a saint by the merits of St. Peter; St. Ennodius, bishop of Pavia, bearing witness, and many holy fathers agreeing with him. As is contained in the decrees of St. Symmachus the pope.
24.That, by his command and consent, it may be lawful for subordinates to bring accusations.
25.That he may depose and reinstate bishops without assembling a synod.
26.That he who is not at peace with the Roman church shall not be considered catholic.
27.That he may absolve subjects from their fealty to wicked men.
http://www.fordham.edu/Halsall/source/g7-dictpap.asp
Quote
Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins, as the Spouse in the Canticles [Sgs 6:8] proclaims: 'One is my dove, my perfect one. She is the only one, the chosen of her who bore her,' and she represents one sole mystical body whose Head is Christ and the head of Christ is God [1 Cor 11:3]. In her then is one Lord, one faith, one baptism [Eph 4:5]. There had been at the time of the deluge only one ark of Noah, prefiguring the one Church, which ark, having been finished to a single cubit, had only one pilot and guide, i.e., Noah, and we read that, outside of this ark, all that subsisted on the earth was destroyed.

We venerate this Church as one, the Lord having said by the mouth of the prophet: 'Deliver, O God, my soul from the sword and my only one from the hand of the dog.' [Ps 21:20] He has prayed for his soul, that is for himself, heart and body; and this body, that is to say, the Church, He has called one because of the unity of the Spouse, of the faith, of the sacraments, and of the charity of the Church. This is the tunic of the Lord, the seamless tunic, which was not rent but which was cast by lot [Jn 19:23-24]. Therefore, of the one and only Church there is one body and one head, not two heads like a monster; that is, Christ and the Vicar of Christ, Peter and the successor of Peter, since the Lord speaking to Peter Himself said: 'Feed my sheep' [Jn 21:17], meaning, my sheep in general, not these, nor those in particular, whence we understand that He entrusted all to him [Peter]. Therefore, if the Greeks or others should say that they are not confided to Peter and to his successors, they must confess not being the sheep of Christ, since Our Lord says in John 'there is one sheepfold and one shepherd.' We are informed by the texts of the gospels that in this Church and in its power are two swords; namely, the spiritual and the temporal. For when the Apostles say: 'Behold, here are two swords' [Lk 22:38] that is to say, in the Church, since the Apostles were speaking, the Lord did not reply that there were too many, but sufficient. Certainly the one who denies that the temporal sword is in the power of Peter has not listened well to the word of the Lord commanding: 'Put up thy sword into thy scabbard' [Mt 26:52]. Both, therefore, are in the power of the Church, that is to say, the spiritual and the material sword, but the former is to be administered _for_ the Church but the latter by the Church; the former in the hands of the priest; the latter by the hands of kings and soldiers, but at the will and sufferance of the priest.

However, one sword ought to be subordinated to the other and temporal authority, subjected to spiritual power. For since the Apostle said: 'There is no power except from God and the things that are, are ordained of God' [Rom 13:1-2], but they would not be ordained if one sword were not subordinated to the other and if the inferior one, as it were, were not led upwards by the other.

For, according to the Blessed Dionysius, it is a law of the divinity that the lowest things reach the highest place by intermediaries. Then, according to the order of the universe, all things are not led back to order equally and immediately, but the lowest by the intermediary, and the inferior by the superior. Hence we must recognize the more clearly that spiritual power surpasses in dignity and in nobility any temporal power whatever, as spiritual things surpass the temporal. This we see very clearly also by the payment, benediction, and consecration of the tithes, but the acceptance of power itself and by the government even of things. For with truth as our witness, it belongs to spiritual power to establish the terrestrial power and to pass judgement if it has not been good. Thus is accomplished the prophecy of Jeremias concerning the Church and the ecclesiastical power: 'Behold to-day I have placed you over nations, and over kingdoms' and the rest. Therefore, if the terrestrial power err, it will be judged by the spiritual power; but if a minor spiritual power err, it will be judged by a superior spiritual power; but if the highest power of all err, it can be judged only by God, and not by man, according to the testimony of the Apostle: 'The spiritual man judgeth of all things and he himself is judged by no man' [1 Cor 2:15]. This authority, however, (though it has been given to man and is exercised by man), is not human but rather divine, granted to Peter by a divine word and reaffirmed to him (Peter) and his successors by the One Whom Peter confessed, the Lord saying to Peter himself, 'Whatsoever you shall bind on earth, shall be bound also in Heaven' etc., [Mt 16:19]. Therefore whoever resists this power thus ordained by God, resists the ordinance of God [Rom 13:2], unless he invent like Manicheus two beginnings, which is false and judged by us heretical, since according to the testimony of Moses, it is not in the beginnings but in the beginning that God created heaven and earth [Gen 1:1]. Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/B8-unam.asp
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« Reply #137 on: April 27, 2012, 01:39:04 PM »

Thank you for posting the notes above al Misry!!

These are the very things that the First Vatican Council set out to limit. 

Now we know that papal power and authority does not take the place of the ordinary power of the episcopate.
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« Reply #138 on: April 27, 2012, 01:46:02 PM »

If the truth of the faith hinges on yet another of the endless interreligious and interethnic squabbles in Poland, which are in turn byproducts of the endless mess between Poland and Russia, then it becomes a faith that's like the Mandaeans- you're born into it, or you're outside it forever. Good luck to you if you didn't happen to pick the right parents.

What Russia? Russia hadn't been involved with that case until about 30 years after Kuncewicz' death.
Russia is always involved as the scapegoat as to the failure of Brest.  Look at the assumption of the Vatican, the Polish government and Latin hierarchy, and the UGCC that the Orthodox Ukrainians etc. would rush to the Vatican at the fall of the Romanovs.  The dismal failure of Poland's Revindication Campaigns, the "Neo-Union" and Card. d'Herbigny etc. took them by complete surprise.

Always the problem, particularly in the west, when the clergy get intoxicated by their relationships with secular rulers.

Sounds to me like a case of the pot calling the kettle black.  laugh
A big 'ol black pot calling a little grey kettle, black.

Wow - of course the east has much to account for that. Duh. Angry

But - as Roman Catholics, if you really want to maintain a shred of credibility here or in the real world for that matter- and you are pushing my buttons so I can not imagine what you are doing to others here - you should look in the mirror.

For example I suppose you never heard of say Roderic Llançol i de Borja (Pope Alexander II) or  Giovanni di Lorenzo de' Medici (Pope Leo X) and their little ventures into the secular realms and their connivance and duplicitous dealings with the Kings of England, France and Spain - just to name a few - and the Borja Pope's dealings with the Ottoman Sultan Bayezid II and his brother and rival to the throne Cem?

How about Cardinal Wolsey, Henry VIII and Pope Julius? That political gig by Wolsey as Lord Chancellor of England for King Henry didn't really work out so well for the Catholic Church did it?

Heck, we could start a whole new thread about how 'my church screwed around with politics in a crappier way than did yours' - wow that would be revealing - at least by providing fuel for the unbelievers who would dance around our ridiculous vanities.

I deleted the last line of my prior post for it ventured astray into contemporary politics. But suffice it to say the allure of intermingling the Church with the sullied hands of crass politicians is as tempting to the USCCB as ever it was to the most scheming of medieval princes of the Church - and likely to end in just as calamitous way, in my opinion.
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« Reply #139 on: April 27, 2012, 01:49:27 PM »

USCCB has the responsibility to teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political.
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« Reply #140 on: April 27, 2012, 01:51:27 PM »

USCCB has the responsibility to teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political.

I hope they remember the old adage, that if you sleep with dogs, you will get fleas. Also, that put not your trust in princes is still good advice.
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« Reply #141 on: April 27, 2012, 01:52:10 PM »

If the truth of the faith hinges on yet another of the endless interreligious and interethnic squabbles in Poland, which are in turn byproducts of the endless mess between Poland and Russia, then it becomes a faith that's like the Mandaeans- you're born into it, or you're outside it forever. Good luck to you if you didn't happen to pick the right parents.

What Russia? Russia hadn't been involved with that case until about 30 years after Kuncewicz' death.
Russia is always involved as the scapegoat as to the failure of Brest.  Look at the assumption of the Vatican, the Polish government and Latin hierarchy, and the UGCC that the Orthodox Ukrainians etc. would rush to the Vatican at the fall of the Romanovs.  The dismal failure of Poland's Revindication Campaigns, the "Neo-Union" and Card. d'Herbigny etc. took them by complete surprise.

Always the problem, particularly in the west, when the clergy get intoxicated by their relationships with secular rulers.

Sounds to me like a case of the pot calling the kettle black.  laugh
A big 'ol black pot calling a little grey kettle, black.

Wow - of course the east has much to account for that. Duh. Angry

But - as Roman Catholics, if you really want to maintain a shred of credibility here or in the real world for that matter- and you are pushing my buttons so I can not imagine what you are doing to others here - you should look in the mirror.

For example I suppose you never heard of say Roderic Llançol i de Borja (Pope Alexander II) or  Giovanni di Lorenzo de' Medici (Pope Leo X) and their little ventures into the secular realms and their connivance and duplicitous dealings with the Kings of England, France and Spain - just to name a few - and the Borja Pope's dealings with the Ottoman Sultan Bayezid II and his brother and rival to the throne Cem?

How about Cardinal Wolsey, Henry VIII and Pope Julius? That political gig by Wolsey as Lord Chancellor of England for King Henry didn't really work out so well for the Catholic Church did it?

Heck, we could start a whole new thread about how 'my church screwed around with politics in a crappier way than did yours' - wow that would be revealing - at least by providing fuel for the unbelievers who would dance around our ridiculous vanities.

I deleted the last line of my prior post for it ventured astray into contemporary politics. But suffice it to say the allure of intermingling the Church with the sullied hands of crass politicians is as tempting to the USCCB as ever it was to the most scheming of medieval princes of the Church - and likely to end in just as calamitous way, in my opinion.

Uh, yes, some of us do like to read. It's not necessary to patronize people.

One of many reasons you people on this board have convinced me that many things I've done and hoped over the past few years have been completely wrong. Including, supporting the continued discussion between our two churches.

Just shut the door. There's nothing to see. Hundreds of years ago, a dire mistake was made- and no one seems to care.

Let the dead bury their dead.
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J Michael
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« Reply #142 on: April 27, 2012, 02:03:02 PM »

If the truth of the faith hinges on yet another of the endless interreligious and interethnic squabbles in Poland, which are in turn byproducts of the endless mess between Poland and Russia, then it becomes a faith that's like the Mandaeans- you're born into it, or you're outside it forever. Good luck to you if you didn't happen to pick the right parents.

What Russia? Russia hadn't been involved with that case until about 30 years after Kuncewicz' death.
Russia is always involved as the scapegoat as to the failure of Brest.  Look at the assumption of the Vatican, the Polish government and Latin hierarchy, and the UGCC that the Orthodox Ukrainians etc. would rush to the Vatican at the fall of the Romanovs.  The dismal failure of Poland's Revindication Campaigns, the "Neo-Union" and Card. d'Herbigny etc. took them by complete surprise.

Always the problem, particularly in the west, when the clergy get intoxicated by their relationships with secular rulers.

Sounds to me like a case of the pot calling the kettle black.  laugh
A big 'ol black pot calling a little grey kettle, black.

Wow - of course the east has much to account for that. Duh. Angry

But - as Roman Catholics, if you really want to maintain a shred of credibility here or in the real world for that matter- and you are pushing my buttons so I can not imagine what you are doing to others here - you should look in the mirror.

For example I suppose you never heard of say Roderic Llançol i de Borja (Pope Alexander II) or  Giovanni di Lorenzo de' Medici (Pope Leo X) and their little ventures into the secular realms and their connivance and duplicitous dealings with the Kings of England, France and Spain - just to name a few - and the Borja Pope's dealings with the Ottoman Sultan Bayezid II and his brother and rival to the throne Cem?

How about Cardinal Wolsey, Henry VIII and Pope Julius? That political gig by Wolsey as Lord Chancellor of England for King Henry didn't really work out so well for the Catholic Church did it?

Heck, we could start a whole new thread about how 'my church screwed around with politics in a crappier way than did yours' - wow that would be revealing - at least by providing fuel for the unbelievers who would dance around our ridiculous vanities.

I deleted the last line of my prior post for it ventured astray into contemporary politics. But suffice it to say the allure of intermingling the Church with the sullied hands of crass politicians is as tempting to the USCCB as ever it was to the most scheming of medieval princes of the Church - and likely to end in just as calamitous way, in my opinion.

So, perhaps we can *all* agree that *both* Churches have an inglorious history throughout history of mixing politics with religion and one isn't necessarily "better" than the other when it comes to that.  And perhaps we can just leave it at that.

A sin is, after all, a sin.  Counting the sins of another is nonsensical and prideful.  Starting a p___ing contest about how bad or sinful the other is serves no useful purpose whatsoever.  It only encourages the rampant triumphalism and pride that a few here so love to wallow in.  Remember the saying about eyes, and planks, and splinters from Scripture?
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"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
J Michael
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« Reply #143 on: April 27, 2012, 02:09:14 PM »

USCCB has the responsibility to teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political.

I hope they remember the old adage, that if you sleep with dogs, you will get fleas. Also, that put not your trust in princes is still good advice.

It is.  And it cuts both ways.  This is highly unlike you, podkarpatska, to write as though you were someone else. 
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"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
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« Reply #144 on: April 27, 2012, 02:10:16 PM »

Thank you for posting the notes above al Misry!!

These are the very things that the First Vatican Council set out to limit.
Then why didn't it?

Now we know that papal power and authority does not take the place of the ordinary power of the episcopate.
your Met. Sheptytsky found out otherwise when he presumed to try to exercise that ordinary power of the Ruthenian episcopate.  Papal power and authority rapped him across his fingers so hard that it cut them off, so he could not reach outside of Galicia.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #145 on: April 27, 2012, 02:47:56 PM »

If the truth of the faith hinges on yet another of the endless interreligious and interethnic squabbles in Poland, which are in turn byproducts of the endless mess between Poland and Russia, then it becomes a faith that's like the Mandaeans- you're born into it, or you're outside it forever. Good luck to you if you didn't happen to pick the right parents.

What Russia? Russia hadn't been involved with that case until about 30 years after Kuncewicz' death.
Russia is always involved as the scapegoat as to the failure of Brest.  Look at the assumption of the Vatican, the Polish government and Latin hierarchy, and the UGCC that the Orthodox Ukrainians etc. would rush to the Vatican at the fall of the Romanovs.  The dismal failure of Poland's Revindication Campaigns, the "Neo-Union" and Card. d'Herbigny etc. took them by complete surprise.

Always the problem, particularly in the west, when the clergy get intoxicated by their relationships with secular rulers.

Sounds to me like a case of the pot calling the kettle black.  laugh
A big 'ol black pot calling a little grey kettle, black.

Wow - of course the east has much to account for that. Duh. Angry

But - as Roman Catholics, if you really want to maintain a shred of credibility here or in the real world for that matter- and you are pushing my buttons so I can not imagine what you are doing to others here - you should look in the mirror.

For example I suppose you never heard of say Roderic Llançol i de Borja (Pope Alexander II) or  Giovanni di Lorenzo de' Medici (Pope Leo X) and their little ventures into the secular realms and their connivance and duplicitous dealings with the Kings of England, France and Spain - just to name a few - and the Borja Pope's dealings with the Ottoman Sultan Bayezid II and his brother and rival to the throne Cem?

How about Cardinal Wolsey, Henry VIII and Pope Julius? That political gig by Wolsey as Lord Chancellor of England for King Henry didn't really work out so well for the Catholic Church did it?

Heck, we could start a whole new thread about how 'my church screwed around with politics in a crappier way than did yours' - wow that would be revealing - at least by providing fuel for the unbelievers who would dance around our ridiculous vanities.

I deleted the last line of my prior post for it ventured astray into contemporary politics. But suffice it to say the allure of intermingling the Church with the sullied hands of crass politicians is as tempting to the USCCB as ever it was to the most scheming of medieval princes of the Church - and likely to end in just as calamitous way, in my opinion.

Uh, yes, some of us do like to read. It's not necessary to patronize people.

One of many reasons you people on this board have convinced me that many things I've done and hoped over the past few years have been completely wrong. Including, supporting the continued discussion between our two churches.

Just shut the door. There's nothing to see. Hundreds of years ago, a dire mistake was made- and no one seems to care.

Let the dead bury their dead.

Ohhhhnononono....Don't go down that road.  Don't ever quit once your shoulder is to the plow.

Danger that way lurks!!

Who luvs ya kiddo!!

M.
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« Reply #146 on: April 27, 2012, 02:49:04 PM »

Thank you for posting the notes above al Misry!!

These are the very things that the First Vatican Council set out to limit.
Then why didn't it?

Now we know that papal power and authority does not take the place of the ordinary power of the episcopate.
your Met. Sheptytsky found out otherwise when he presumed to try to exercise that ordinary power of the Ruthenian episcopate.  Papal power and authority rapped him across his fingers so hard that it cut them off, so he could not reach outside of Galicia.

Ahhh the sweet breath of forgiveness...

I keep forgetting that Orthodoxy is unblemished.
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« Reply #147 on: April 27, 2012, 02:49:19 PM »

Thank you for posting the notes above al Misry!!

These are the very things that the First Vatican Council set out to limit. 

Now we know that papal power and authority does not take the place of the ordinary power of the episcopate.

No, it supersedes it.
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« Reply #148 on: April 27, 2012, 02:50:31 PM »

USCCB has the responsibility to teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political.

In the fine tradition of supremacy.
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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« Reply #149 on: April 27, 2012, 02:54:43 PM »

USCCB has the responsibility to teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political.

In the fine tradition of supremacy.

Does your Church through your bishop or synod not "...teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political."?
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« Reply #150 on: April 27, 2012, 02:59:05 PM »

USCCB has the responsibility to teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political.

In the fine tradition of supremacy.

Does your Church through your bishop or synod not "...teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political."?
not at the dictates of a foreign bishop it doesn't.
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« Reply #151 on: April 27, 2012, 03:00:52 PM »

Thank you for posting the notes above al Misry!!

These are the very things that the First Vatican Council set out to limit.
Then why didn't it?

Now we know that papal power and authority does not take the place of the ordinary power of the episcopate.
your Met. Sheptytsky found out otherwise when he presumed to try to exercise that ordinary power of the Ruthenian episcopate.  Papal power and authority rapped him across his fingers so hard that it cut them off, so he could not reach outside of Galicia.

Ahhh the sweet breath of forgiveness...

I keep forgetting that Orthodoxy is unblemished.
Then remind yourself.
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« Reply #152 on: April 27, 2012, 03:03:13 PM »

If the truth of the faith hinges on yet another of the endless interreligious and interethnic squabbles in Poland, which are in turn byproducts of the endless mess between Poland and Russia, then it becomes a faith that's like the Mandaeans- you're born into it, or you're outside it forever. Good luck to you if you didn't happen to pick the right parents.

What Russia? Russia hadn't been involved with that case until about 30 years after Kuncewicz' death.
Russia is always involved as the scapegoat as to the failure of Brest.  Look at the assumption of the Vatican, the Polish government and Latin hierarchy, and the UGCC that the Orthodox Ukrainians etc. would rush to the Vatican at the fall of the Romanovs.  The dismal failure of Poland's Revindication Campaigns, the "Neo-Union" and Card. d'Herbigny etc. took them by complete surprise.

Always the problem, particularly in the west, when the clergy get intoxicated by their relationships with secular rulers.

Sounds to me like a case of the pot calling the kettle black.  laugh
A big 'ol black pot calling a little grey kettle, black.

Wow - of course the east has much to account for that. Duh. Angry

But - as Roman Catholics, if you really want to maintain a shred of credibility here or in the real world for that matter- and you are pushing my buttons so I can not imagine what you are doing to others here - you should look in the mirror.

For example I suppose you never heard of say Roderic Llançol i de Borja (Pope Alexander II) or  Giovanni di Lorenzo de' Medici (Pope Leo X) and their little ventures into the secular realms and their connivance and duplicitous dealings with the Kings of England, France and Spain - just to name a few - and the Borja Pope's dealings with the Ottoman Sultan Bayezid II and his brother and rival to the throne Cem?

How about Cardinal Wolsey, Henry VIII and Pope Julius? That political gig by Wolsey as Lord Chancellor of England for King Henry didn't really work out so well for the Catholic Church did it?

Heck, we could start a whole new thread about how 'my church screwed around with politics in a crappier way than did yours' - wow that would be revealing - at least by providing fuel for the unbelievers who would dance around our ridiculous vanities.

I deleted the last line of my prior post for it ventured astray into contemporary politics. But suffice it to say the allure of intermingling the Church with the sullied hands of crass politicians is as tempting to the USCCB as ever it was to the most scheming of medieval princes of the Church - and likely to end in just as calamitous way, in my opinion.

Uh, yes, some of us do like to read. It's not necessary to patronize people.

One of many reasons you people on this board have convinced me that many things I've done and hoped over the past few years have been completely wrong. Including, supporting the continued discussion between our two churches.

Just shut the door. There's nothing to see. Hundreds of years ago, a dire mistake was made- and no one seems to care.

Let the dead bury their dead.

Ohhhhnononono....Don't go down that road.  Don't ever quit once your shoulder is to the plow.

Danger that way lurks!!

Who luvs ya kiddo!!

M.

To which I concur, you can't let our little discussion get to you. No one would ever graduate law school or seminary if they did!
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« Reply #153 on: April 27, 2012, 03:08:20 PM »

USCCB has the responsibility to teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political.

In the fine tradition of supremacy.

Does your Church through your bishop or synod not "...teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political."?
not at the dictates of a foreign bishop it doesn't.

That wasn't my question.
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« Reply #154 on: April 27, 2012, 03:09:50 PM »

USCCB has the responsibility to teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political.

In the fine tradition of supremacy.

Does your Church through your bishop or synod not "...teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political."?

I can't think of any Orthodox holy synod that has absolved people from oaths sworn to a monarch or duties to a state or called for the assassination of heads of state.
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« Reply #155 on: April 27, 2012, 03:20:56 PM »

USCCB has the responsibility to teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political.

In the fine tradition of supremacy.

Does your Church through your bishop or synod not "...teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political."?

I can't think of any Orthodox holy synod that has absolved people from oaths sworn to a monarch or duties to a state or called for the assassination of heads of state.

Sheesh!

That wasn't my question, either.  I think the answer would be a simple yes or no, so why add in all the extra nonsense?  I mean, it's a pretty simple, straightforward question, after all.
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« Reply #156 on: April 27, 2012, 03:23:42 PM »

USCCB has the responsibility to teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political.

In the fine tradition of supremacy.

Does your Church through your bishop or synod not "...teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political."?

I can't think of any Orthodox holy synod that has absolved people from oaths sworn to a monarch or duties to a state or called for the assassination of heads of state.

Sheesh!

That wasn't my question, either.  I think the answer would be a simple yes or no, so why add in all the extra nonsense?  I mean, it's a pretty simple, straightforward question, after all.
He doesn't want to answer the question because it would undermine his argument. He'd rather take pot-shots at "The Vatican".
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« Reply #157 on: April 27, 2012, 03:30:07 PM »

USCCB has the responsibility to teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political.

In the fine tradition of supremacy.

Does your Church through your bishop or synod not "...teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political."?

I can't think of any Orthodox holy synod that has absolved people from oaths sworn to a monarch or duties to a state or called for the assassination of heads of state.

Sheesh!

That wasn't my question, either.  I think the answer would be a simple yes or no, so why add in all the extra nonsense?  I mean, it's a pretty simple, straightforward question, after all.
He doesn't want to answer the question because it would undermine his argument. He'd rather take pot-shots at "The Vatican".

He's not Isa's twin, is he?  Grin
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« Reply #158 on: April 27, 2012, 03:31:14 PM »

USCCB has the responsibility to teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political.

In the fine tradition of supremacy.

Does your Church through your bishop or synod not "...teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political."?

I can't think of any Orthodox holy synod that has absolved people from oaths sworn to a monarch or duties to a state or called for the assassination of heads of state.

Sheesh!

That wasn't my question, either.  I think the answer would be a simple yes or no, so why add in all the extra nonsense?  I mean, it's a pretty simple, straightforward question, after all.
having nothing to do with Shangiaski's point.

Papist claimed that the USCCB has the responsibility of submitting their flock to the dictates of a bishop not in it.  No, no Orthodox Church teaches that.
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« Reply #159 on: April 27, 2012, 03:32:08 PM »

USCCB has the responsibility to teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political.

In the fine tradition of supremacy.

Does your Church through your bishop or synod not "...teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political."?

I can't think of any Orthodox holy synod that has absolved people from oaths sworn to a monarch or duties to a state or called for the assassination of heads of state.

Sheesh!

That wasn't my question, either.  I think the answer would be a simple yes or no, so why add in all the extra nonsense?  I mean, it's a pretty simple, straightforward question, after all.
He doesn't want to answer the question because it would undermine his argument. He'd rather take pot-shots at "The Vatican".
no pot shots.  Just shooting the serpent in the head.
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #160 on: April 27, 2012, 03:42:12 PM »

USCCB has the responsibility to teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political.

In the fine tradition of supremacy.

Does your Church through your bishop or synod not "...teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political."?

I can't think of any Orthodox holy synod that has absolved people from oaths sworn to a monarch or duties to a state or called for the assassination of heads of state.

Sheesh!

That wasn't my question, either.  I think the answer would be a simple yes or no, so why add in all the extra nonsense?  I mean, it's a pretty simple, straightforward question, after all.
He doesn't want to answer the question because it would undermine his argument. He'd rather take pot-shots at "The Vatican".
no pot shots.  Just shooting the serpent in the head.

Papist said, "USCCB has the responsibility to teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political."

I asked of Shanghaiski, "Does your Church through your bishop or synod not "...teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political."?

And the answer is.........?
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« Reply #161 on: April 27, 2012, 03:42:25 PM »


no pot shots.  Just shooting the serpent in the head.

IF that is really your target, I suggest you turn the gun around.

 Wink Wink Wink
« Last Edit: April 27, 2012, 03:42:54 PM by elijahmaria » Logged

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« Reply #162 on: April 27, 2012, 03:56:27 PM »

Again, I fail to see how a tiny city-state with maybe a few hundred elderly priests and bishops and nuns in it strikes such terror around the world. There are cities with police departments dozens of times that size.

 Huh

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« Reply #163 on: April 27, 2012, 04:04:52 PM »

USCCB has the responsibility to teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political.

In the fine tradition of supremacy.

Does your Church through your bishop or synod not "...teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political."?

I can't think of any Orthodox holy synod that has absolved people from oaths sworn to a monarch or duties to a state or called for the assassination of heads of state.

Sheesh!

That wasn't my question, either.  I think the answer would be a simple yes or no, so why add in all the extra nonsense?  I mean, it's a pretty simple, straightforward question, after all.

I did not find the question either simple or straightforward.
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« Reply #164 on: April 27, 2012, 04:07:35 PM »


no pot shots.  Just shooting the serpent in the head.

IF that is really your target, I suggest you turn the gun around.

 Wink Wink Wink
why? is the Inquisition sneeking up on me?
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« Reply #165 on: April 27, 2012, 04:08:57 PM »

Again, I fail to see how a tiny city-state with maybe a few hundred elderly priests and bishops and nuns in it strikes such terror around the world. There are cities with police departments dozens of times that size.

 Huh




LOL. It's not the tiny city state.


Did the tiny city state launch umpteen Crusades? No. However, it did wield significant power over many other large states with large armies, absolving these soldiers from sins if they killed in the name of the papacy's agenda. Contrariwise, this little old man (or sometimes young man) at the head of this little city state absolved people of oaths (a power not given to any bishop by the holy canons or God himself), fomenting revolution, regicide, and ecclesiastical supremacy over the state.
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« Reply #166 on: April 27, 2012, 04:09:37 PM »

Again, I fail to see how a tiny city-state with maybe a few hundred elderly priests and bishops and nuns in it strikes such terror around the world. There are cities with police departments dozens of times that size.

 Huh


so you agree with Stalin on how many divisions the pope in the Vatican has.
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« Reply #167 on: April 27, 2012, 04:11:29 PM »

USCCB has the responsibility to teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political.

In the fine tradition of supremacy.

Does your Church through your bishop or synod not "...teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political."?

I can't think of any Orthodox holy synod that has absolved people from oaths sworn to a monarch or duties to a state or called for the assassination of heads of state.

Sheesh!

That wasn't my question, either.  I think the answer would be a simple yes or no, so why add in all the extra nonsense?  I mean, it's a pretty simple, straightforward question, after all.
He doesn't want to answer the question because it would undermine his argument. He'd rather take pot-shots at "The Vatican".
no pot shots.  Just shooting the serpent in the head.

Papist said, "USCCB has the responsibility to teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political."

I asked of Shanghaiski, "Does your Church through your bishop or synod not "...teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political."?

And the answer is.........?
...yes, and it doesn't include submission to the dictates of a foreign bishop.
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #168 on: April 27, 2012, 04:14:56 PM »

USCCB has the responsibility to teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political.

In the fine tradition of supremacy.

Does your Church through your bishop or synod not "...teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political."?

I can't think of any Orthodox holy synod that has absolved people from oaths sworn to a monarch or duties to a state or called for the assassination of heads of state.

Sheesh!

That wasn't my question, either.  I think the answer would be a simple yes or no, so why add in all the extra nonsense?  I mean, it's a pretty simple, straightforward question, after all.

I did not find the question either simple or straightforward.

 Huh  Seemed pretty simple to me.  I mean, either your Church does "teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political", or it doesn't.  How is that not simple or straightforward?

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« Reply #169 on: April 27, 2012, 04:17:45 PM »

USCCB has the responsibility to teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political.

In the fine tradition of supremacy.

Does your Church through your bishop or synod not "...teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political."?

I can't think of any Orthodox holy synod that has absolved people from oaths sworn to a monarch or duties to a state or called for the assassination of heads of state.

Sheesh!

That wasn't my question, either.  I think the answer would be a simple yes or no, so why add in all the extra nonsense?  I mean, it's a pretty simple, straightforward question, after all.
He doesn't want to answer the question because it would undermine his argument. He'd rather take pot-shots at "The Vatican".
no pot shots.  Just shooting the serpent in the head.

Papist said, "USCCB has the responsibility to teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political."

I asked of Shanghaiski, "Does your Church through your bishop or synod not "...teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political."?

And the answer is.........?
...yes, and it doesn't include submission to the dictates of a foreign bishop.

Thank you!!  See, that wasn't so painful now, was it  Grin laugh?
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« Reply #170 on: April 27, 2012, 04:18:07 PM »

All bishops are foreign to someone, somewhere. Unless we all live in the same country.
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« Reply #171 on: April 27, 2012, 04:27:04 PM »

USCCB has the responsibility to teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political.

In the fine tradition of supremacy.

Does your Church through your bishop or synod not "...teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political."?

I can't think of any Orthodox holy synod that has absolved people from oaths sworn to a monarch or duties to a state or called for the assassination of heads of state.

Sheesh!

That wasn't my question, either.  I think the answer would be a simple yes or no, so why add in all the extra nonsense?  I mean, it's a pretty simple, straightforward question, after all.

I did not find the question either simple or straightforward.

 Huh  Seemed pretty simple to me.  I mean, either your Church does "teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political", or it doesn't.  How is that not simple or straightforward?



No, because you have not established what is meant by "political." What do you mean? How can I begin to answer without knowing the context and meaning?
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« Reply #172 on: April 27, 2012, 04:46:03 PM »

USCCB has the responsibility to teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political.

In the fine tradition of supremacy.

Does your Church through your bishop or synod not "...teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political."?

I can't think of any Orthodox holy synod that has absolved people from oaths sworn to a monarch or duties to a state or called for the assassination of heads of state.

Sheesh!

That wasn't my question, either.  I think the answer would be a simple yes or no, so why add in all the extra nonsense?  I mean, it's a pretty simple, straightforward question, after all.

I did not find the question either simple or straightforward.

 Huh  Seemed pretty simple to me.  I mean, either your Church does "teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political", or it doesn't.  How is that not simple or straightforward?



No, because you have not established what is meant by "political." What do you mean? How can I begin to answer without knowing the context and meaning?

Really??  Oy vey.

Alright....

"po·lit·i·cal
adj \pə-ˈli-ti-kəl\
Definition of POLITICAL
1
a : of or relating to government, a government, or the conduct of government b : of, relating to, or concerned with the making as distinguished from the administration of governmental policy
2
: of, relating to, involving, or involved in politics and especially party politics
3
: organized in governmental terms <political units>"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/political

Better now?
« Last Edit: April 27, 2012, 04:46:53 PM by J Michael » Logged

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« Reply #173 on: April 27, 2012, 04:56:04 PM »

USCCB has the responsibility to teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political.

In the fine tradition of supremacy.

Does your Church through your bishop or synod not "...teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political."?

I can't think of any Orthodox holy synod that has absolved people from oaths sworn to a monarch or duties to a state or called for the assassination of heads of state.

Sheesh!

That wasn't my question, either.  I think the answer would be a simple yes or no, so why add in all the extra nonsense?  I mean, it's a pretty simple, straightforward question, after all.

I did not find the question either simple or straightforward.

 Huh  Seemed pretty simple to me.  I mean, either your Church does "teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political", or it doesn't.  How is that not simple or straightforward?



No, because you have not established what is meant by "political." What do you mean? How can I begin to answer without knowing the context and meaning?

Really??  Oy vey.

Alright....

"po·lit·i·cal
adj \pə-ˈli-ti-kəl\
Definition of POLITICAL
1
a : of or relating to government, a government, or the conduct of government b : of, relating to, or concerned with the making as distinguished from the administration of governmental policy
2
: of, relating to, involving, or involved in politics and especially party politics
3
: organized in governmental terms <political units>"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/political

Better now?

No. That doesn't help at all.
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« Reply #174 on: April 27, 2012, 05:02:12 PM »

USCCB has the responsibility to teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political.

In the fine tradition of supremacy.

Does your Church through your bishop or synod not "...teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political."?

I can't think of any Orthodox holy synod that has absolved people from oaths sworn to a monarch or duties to a state or called for the assassination of heads of state.

Sheesh!

That wasn't my question, either.  I think the answer would be a simple yes or no, so why add in all the extra nonsense?  I mean, it's a pretty simple, straightforward question, after all.

I did not find the question either simple or straightforward.

 Huh  Seemed pretty simple to me.  I mean, either your Church does "teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political", or it doesn't.  How is that not simple or straightforward?



No, because you have not established what is meant by "political." What do you mean? How can I begin to answer without knowing the context and meaning?

Really??  Oy vey.

Alright....

"po·lit·i·cal
adj \pə-ˈli-ti-kəl\
Definition of POLITICAL
1
a : of or relating to government, a government, or the conduct of government b : of, relating to, or concerned with the making as distinguished from the administration of governmental policy
2
: of, relating to, involving, or involved in politics and especially party politics
3
: organized in governmental terms <political units>"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/political

Better now?

No. That doesn't help at all.

Somehow I thought it wouldn't.

Never mind.  I'm done playing your game. 
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
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« Reply #175 on: April 27, 2012, 05:27:41 PM »

USCCB has the responsibility to teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political.

In the fine tradition of supremacy.

Does your Church through your bishop or synod not "...teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political."?

I can't think of any Orthodox holy synod that has absolved people from oaths sworn to a monarch or duties to a state or called for the assassination of heads of state.

Sheesh!

That wasn't my question, either.  I think the answer would be a simple yes or no, so why add in all the extra nonsense?  I mean, it's a pretty simple, straightforward question, after all.

I did not find the question either simple or straightforward.

 Huh  Seemed pretty simple to me.  I mean, either your Church does "teach the entire faith and inform the faithful that our faith must affect every aspect of our lives, including the political", or it doesn't.  How is that not simple or straightforward?



No, because you have not established what is meant by "political." What do you mean? How can I begin to answer without knowing the context and meaning?

Really??  Oy vey.

Alright....

"po·lit·i·cal
adj \pə-ˈli-ti-kəl\
Definition of POLITICAL
1
a : of or relating to government, a government, or the conduct of government b : of, relating to, or concerned with the making as distinguished from the administration of governmental policy
2
: of, relating to, involving, or involved in politics and especially party politics
3
: organized in governmental terms <political units>"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/political

Better now?

No. That doesn't help at all.

Somehow I thought it wouldn't.

Never mind.  I'm done playing your game. 

I wasn't playing a game, merely trying to get at specifics. Oh well.
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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« Reply #176 on: April 27, 2012, 06:38:37 PM »

Again, I fail to see how a tiny city-state with maybe a few hundred elderly priests and bishops and nuns in it strikes such terror around the world. There are cities with police departments dozens of times that size.

 Huh




LOL. It's not the tiny city state.


Did the tiny city state launch umpteen Crusades? No. However, it did wield significant power over many other large states with large armies, absolving these soldiers from sins if they killed in the name of the papacy's agenda. Contrariwise, this little old man (or sometimes young man) at the head of this little city state absolved people of oaths (a power not given to any bishop by the holy canons or God himself), fomenting revolution, regicide, and ecclesiastical supremacy over the state.

Hundreds of years ago.

I've yet to meet an Orthodox who didn't think the entire world was still stuck in the Middle Ages.
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« Reply #177 on: April 27, 2012, 06:54:59 PM »

Again, I fail to see how a tiny city-state with maybe a few hundred elderly priests and bishops and nuns in it strikes such terror around the world. There are cities with police departments dozens of times that size.

 Huh




LOL. It's not the tiny city state.


Did the tiny city state launch umpteen Crusades? No. However, it did wield significant power over many other large states with large armies, absolving these soldiers from sins if they killed in the name of the papacy's agenda. Contrariwise, this little old man (or sometimes young man) at the head of this little city state absolved people of oaths (a power not given to any bishop by the holy canons or God himself), fomenting revolution, regicide, and ecclesiastical supremacy over the state.

Hundreds of years ago.

I've yet to meet an Orthodox who didn't think the entire world was still stuck in the Middle Ages.

Never forgive, never forget, never apologize, never let anyone know you've changed....

I get disgusted till I remember they do worse to one another.

M.
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« Reply #178 on: April 27, 2012, 07:01:42 PM »


I wasn't playing a game, merely trying to get at specifics. Oh well.

We could get too far into politics with this question if we go into too much detail.  There was a time indeed where the Catholic Church did see the Christian material world as secondary to the heart of the Christian spiritual world, and subject to the moral laws of the Church...and that got messy.

But even today the Vatican has a role to play in international affairs.  We'd have more to say had our bishops not been so wishy-washy on one hand and just damned venal on the other...nonetheless the Vatican still has influence in the world.

Quite frankly I think that is a good thing...better thing if we put our moral capital where our moral mouth is...
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« Reply #179 on: April 27, 2012, 07:58:40 PM »

Again, I fail to see how a tiny city-state with maybe a few hundred elderly priests and bishops and nuns in it strikes such terror around the world. There are cities with police departments dozens of times that size.

 Huh




LOL. It's not the tiny city state.


Did the tiny city state launch umpteen Crusades? No. However, it did wield significant power over many other large states with large armies, absolving these soldiers from sins if they killed in the name of the papacy's agenda. Contrariwise, this little old man (or sometimes young man) at the head of this little city state absolved people of oaths (a power not given to any bishop by the holy canons or God himself), fomenting revolution, regicide, and ecclesiastical supremacy over the state.

Hundreds of years ago.

I've yet to meet an Orthodox who didn't think the entire world was still stuck in the Middle Ages.
Your Latin patriarchs of Constantinople, Alexandria and Antioch, established in the Middle Ages, were still around at Vatican II, when you evidently think your ecclesiastical community's history begins.

Look a few years back, rather than centuries:

http://www.juliagorin.com/wordpress/?m=201012
Quote
29 December 2010 | 10:21 | Source: Tanjug ZAGREB — A memorial service was held at the Basilica of the Sacred Heart of Jesus in Zagreb on Tuesday evening for Ante Pavelić.

The service also mentioned Jure Francetić, commander of the Ustasha Crna Legija (Black Legion).

The service was held by priests Vjekoslav Lasić and Stanislav Kos, who in referred to Pavelić as a respectable man who made sacrifices for all of Croatia.

Lasić, famous for his pro-Ustasha attitude and Pavelić-inspired sermons, called on the attendees to pray not only for Pavelić but also for Francetić, who, according to him, gave his life for Croatia.

Regardless of public criticism, Lasić has never been penalized by the Catholic Church nor by the state of Croatia, whose constitution emphasizes anti-fascist ideology.

Pavelić was at the helm of the WW2 puppet-Nazi Independent State of Croatia (NDH), whose Ustasha regime operated death camps where Serbs, Jews and Roma were imprisoned and murdered, including sites of mass slaughter such as the Jasenovac concentration camp.
Here is Pavelic a few decades, not centuries, earlier:

He's on the left. On the right is this guy

in the shrine. Who is that kneeling before him on the left?


The date on that is 1990.

This was the Orthodox Cathedral of Warsaw.

The Bolsheviks didn't do that.  Nor the Nazis.  The Polish government which had signed its concordat with the Vatican did that.  Less than a hundred years ago, it looked like this:

Not even a hundred years ago, let alone hundreds.  The matushka of my old Church used to tell us how the Polish police (she grew up in interwar Poland) would drag the priests out from the altars on Pascha to make them dance with bears in full vestments.  She passed away (memory eternal!) around 1990.  Not hundreds of years old.

Those who will not learn from history are condemned to repeat it.  No thank you.  Once was a enough.
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