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Author Topic: Cannaibs is extremely good for you in moderation  (Read 5439 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: April 12, 2012, 02:17:02 PM »

Watch and listen to this medical doctor at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_x9lK1meqog

Dr. David Allen (heart surgeon) says, "Eat a bud a day, it will keep the strokes away." Also, "If you eat raw cannabis it will have great medicinal effect and won't get you high at all."  Thousands of people claim it has healed them of many various illnesses.  I was healed of a disease on my foot that doctors could not cure for years after I applied cannabis oil to my foot for a couple weeks.  If you look around, you'll find people that even claim it has healed some forms of cancer!

But don't listen to me.  And don't listen to Dr. David Allen. And don't listen to God either. Just ignore that pesky little verse in Genesis chapter 1 where God gives us "all seed bearing plants for food". Instead, listen to the U.S. Congress and the Federal government. They say cannabis has "no medical value."  They have only been lying to us about cannabis for 80 years straight while pharmaceutical companies have filled their pockets (and our drug stores).  But don't worry... they're all looking out for you first and foremost!

Instead, listen to the many Christians (even in orthodoxy) that will tell you cannabis is somehow a "bad" plant.  Just ignore the fact that the plant haters were prophesied in 1st Timothy chapter 4.  Don't worry... the demons prophesied in that passage aren't really trying to deceive all of us about the inherit goodness of creation.  That's just silly.  And don't worry about the fact that "kanehbos" (Hebrew word) was an ingredient in the anointing oil of holy scripture (Exodus chapter 30 in the Hebrew language).  Whatever you do, try to forget that "Christ" is not an English word.  Make sure Americans never learn that it actually means "Anointed" in English, and that Jesus the Anointed healed people with His holy anointing oil in the gospel of Mark (chapter 6). The all encompassing healing power of the oil was prophesied: "It shall come to pass in that day that his burden will be taken away from your shoulder and his yoke from your neck, and the yoke will be destroyed because of the anointing oil." Isaiah chapter 27.  But forget about all that.  

I never saw a drop of oil in the "Christian" churches I grew up under in America.  Even in orthodoxy I'm not sure I see any oil with kanehbos in it.  I haven't been able to find anyone who can even actually tell me what is in the various oils used in orthodox services!  Do you know?

This much I know.  Cannaibs is extremely good for you in moderation, both spiritually and physically.  This is my experience.  It has healed my physically, and it has helped heal me spiritually.  I already mentioned the disease on my foot.  It was "plantar warts," and they were so painful I often had trouble walking.  This went on for years, and the doctors couldn't make them go away.  They kept coming back within weeks of being removed by doctors.  No drugs or methods they employed worked.  The doctors and drug companies certainly did not mind though, as I kept dumping my hard earned money into their pockets for their useless remedies.   However, when I left the laws of my corrupt government behind and used oil with cannabis in it on my feet, all warts were gone within 2 weeks.  I stopped putting the oil on my feet, and the warts have not come back (its been two years now).

But the healing I experienced was not only physical.  I decided to start burning cannabis as incense in my prayer and worship, and I anointed my head with cannabis oil too.  Yes, this made me slightly "high," but not at all inebriated.  Think of the effect of a glass of wine.  However, the effect was different in a spiritual sense.  For instance, the first time I tried cannabis sativa I was a recovering Southern Baptist on my way towards "non denominational" land.   My doctrines concerning "faith alone" became extremely heavy on my heart almost immediately after I smelled some of the burning cannabis and the slight effect set in.  Verses of Scripture came to mind opposing that doctrine, my errors become extremely heavy on my heart, and I started thinking very "orthodox" about the subject even though I didn't know what orthodoxy even was.  Somehow cannabis helped me realize my doctrinal errors.   Even after the effect of the cannabis went away the change in my doctrine (toward orthodoxy) remained very steadfast in my heart.  I would also anoint my head with oil containing cannabis, and I would also experience the "effect" that way.  Other times it was specific sins in my own life, not just my doctrinal errors.  For instance, another time road rage habits I had justified and developed became extremely heavy on my heart after anointing, and so I re-thought and changed those habits.  I could go on and on.

This much I know.  Cannabis is very good for you in moderation.  I believe cannaibs is probably kanehbos.  Do with that information what you will.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 02:47:40 PM by acts420 » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2012, 02:23:14 PM »

in b4 pic of a troll
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« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2012, 02:32:57 PM »

Jesus the Anointed healed people with His holy anointing oil in the gospel of Mark (chapter 6).
The disciples, you mean.
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« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2012, 02:37:28 PM »

Jesus the Anointed healed people with His holy anointing oil in the gospel of Mark (chapter 6).
The disciples, you mean.

No, I mean Jesus.  I believe the disciples followed Christ.  They did the things Christ told them to do.  They were His ministers, His hands.  They preached Jesus' words, not their own.  When they anointed, it was with Jesus' oil, and they did it because Jesus told them to.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 02:41:44 PM by acts420 » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2012, 06:36:44 PM »

Does Dr. David Allen have any actual science backing his claims up?

Funny that a heart surgeon is suddenly dabbling in pharmacological theory.
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« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2012, 12:12:53 PM »

Does Dr. David Allen have any actual science backing his claims up?

Funny that a heart surgeon is suddenly dabbling in pharmacological theory.
Its just like brain surgeons probably should not do a root canal.......

PP
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« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2012, 12:21:29 PM »

Just ignore that pesky little verse in Genesis chapter 1 where God gives us "all seed bearing plants for food".

Except Nightshade and thousands of other plants that will quickly kill you. And then there's thousands of others that will make you regret eating them...
« Last Edit: April 19, 2012, 12:29:43 PM by Jason.Wike » Logged
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« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2012, 01:16:30 PM »

"Cannaibs" may be good for you in moderation but apparently it has a destructive effect on spelling.  Wink
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« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2012, 01:24:22 PM »

Jesus the Anointed healed people with His holy anointing oil in the gospel of Mark (chapter 6).
The disciples, you mean.

yes, he anointed them with oil. He didn't pass them a doobie... Tongue
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« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2012, 01:26:51 PM »

Jesus the Anointed healed people with His holy anointing oil in the gospel of Mark (chapter 6).
The disciples, you mean.

yes, he anointed them with oil. He didn't pass them a doobie... Tongue
So let me get this straight...

annoint ≠ spark up
and
oil ≠ ganja?

Is outrage!!!

PP
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« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2012, 02:20:17 PM »

Acts,

While I don't think any scholar would support the idea that anointing oil in 1st century Palestine would likely have contained cannabis, I also don't think it's that big of a deal if you like using cannabis oil.
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« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2012, 03:13:22 PM »

"Cannaibs" may be good for you in moderation but apparently it has a destructive effect on spelling.  Wink

Nah- I blame the modern education system. During my prodigal years "cannaibs" was the least of the things I was on while typing, and my spelling and grammar remained impeccable- even when the actual written content made less sense than a Mad Lib.
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« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2012, 03:16:38 PM »

"Cannaibs" may be good for you in moderation but apparently it has a destructive effect on spelling.  Wink

Nah- I blame the modern education system. During my prodigal years "cannaibs" was the least of the things I was on while typing, and my spelling and grammar remained impeccable- even when the actual written content made less sense than a Mad Lib.

Good point!
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« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2012, 05:14:34 PM »

Does Dr. David Allen have any actual science backing his claims up?

Funny that a heart surgeon is suddenly dabbling in pharmacological theory.
Its just like brain surgeons probably should not do a root canal.......

PP

Well, technically, a brain surgeon would be trained to do a root canal. Medical school is a comprehensive curriculum, and they all do rotations. They specialize, but in an emergency any doctor can fill in a particular role.

For example, I remember, I remember hearing stories after the Haiti earthquake when doctors who traveled there in the relief effort were pressed into all sorts of roles. One I remember was an opthamologist (this is your eye doctor. The person who flips things in front of your eye and says "can you see better through 1... or 2?") and was about to perform a foot surgery when luckily a podiatrist (through the grace of God) just happened to come through. Naturally, she turned the foot surgery over to the podiatrist. But the point is, the opthamologist could have operated on the foot.

That's the thing. Doctors get comprehensive medical training and education, specialize, and for the most part will stick to their speciality in medicine. They can work in different settings, but won't unless there is no other option. That is why when you see heart surgeons making proclamations about neurology and pharmacology, or a gynecologist ranting about vaccines, or a dermatologist ranting about anti-depressants, especially when they are going against what all the experts in the field they are going off think, they are probably peddling nonsense.
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« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2012, 05:15:55 PM »

I'd still rather go to a dentist Smiley

PP
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« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2012, 05:30:03 PM »

Acts--The problems with your post are:

a. You are not differentiating in the several uses of the plant. There is plenty of scientific evidence that smoking pot is bad for you.

b. By stating your views so aggressively, you invite push back.

Plus, you just don't know when to quit.
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« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2012, 05:38:13 PM »

Does anybody think that this topic should be kept in FFA-Religious Topics? Am I wrong to think that it belongs more appropriately in FFA-Other Topics? One yes vote from somebody other than Acts will suffice. Please vote by Saturday noon. Thanks, Second Chance
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« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2012, 06:37:05 PM »

I have a hard time believing that anyone making pro-cannabis arguments really, in their hearts of hearts, wants to use it for anything other than to get high.

Exceptions are AIDS and cancer patients, but even they seem to relish the fact that their medicine is pretty fun to take.
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« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2012, 06:48:03 PM »

I have a hard time believing that anyone making pro-cannabis arguments really, in their hearts of hearts, wants to use it for anything other than to get high.

Exceptions are AIDS and cancer patients, but even they seem to relish the fact that their medicine is pretty fun to take.


LOL would you rather take a medicine that makes you feel horrible and has a list of side effects that are worse than the symptoms of the disease?
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« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2012, 08:42:12 PM »

I have a hard time believing that anyone making pro-cannabis arguments really, in their hearts of hearts, wants to use it for anything other than to get high.

Exceptions are AIDS and cancer patients, but even they seem to relish the fact that their medicine is pretty fun to take.


LOL would you rather take a medicine that makes you feel horrible and has a list of side effects that are worse than the symptoms of the disease?
Are you kidding? If I had cancer, I would take a prescription for pot in a heartbeat if my choice was that or Zofran.

But for the record, I don't really care for weed. I'm just asking for a little more honesty in the discussion.
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« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2012, 08:46:40 PM »

Does anybody think that this topic should be kept in FFA-Religious Topics? Am I wrong to think that it belongs more appropriately in FFA-Other Topics? One yes vote from somebody other than Acts will suffice. Please vote by Saturday noon. Thanks, Second Chance

Yes.
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« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2012, 11:31:01 AM »

Does Dr. David Allen have any actual science backing his claims up?

Funny that a heart surgeon is suddenly dabbling in pharmacological theory.

Yes, there is tons of science behind the claims that cannabis helps and even cures many diseases.  This is despite the fact that, at the behest of the big pharmceutical companies that lobbied the DEA to make it illegal in the 1930's (and still lobby that way today), the DEA has made it close to impossible for most institutions in the country to do medical research with cannabis. 

Get on pub med and read the medical journals regarding cannabis.  It clearly has a lot of medical value both as therapy and even as a cure for many ailments.  Nonetheless, the Federal government classifies it as "schedule 1" ("no medical value"), the most illegal classification possible.  If that doesn't smell fishy then you no longer have a nose, or you've stopped using your brain for so long it no longer functions the way God intended.
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« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2012, 11:44:04 AM »

Acts,

While I don't think any scholar would support the idea that anointing oil in 1st century Palestine would likely have contained cannabis, I also don't think it's that big of a deal if you like using cannabis oil.

Actually, there are Hebrew scholars that would say the oil very possibly contained cannabis.  Western scholars have guessed what "kanehbos" was for centuries.  Their guesses are wild, and they range from "sugar cane" to "calamus" to "fragrant cane" (whatever that is they don't specify).  The Western scholars have tended to frown on cannabis, most likely for societal reasons.  Those reasons did not exist in the 1st century.  Cannabis was accepted as a gift from God like any other plant.  It was only recently that cannabis received the massive social stigma it now has.  The political campaign against cannabis started around the 1930's.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2012, 11:45:17 AM by acts420 » Logged

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« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2012, 11:48:43 AM »

I have a hard time believing that anyone making pro-cannabis arguments really, in their hearts of hearts, wants to use it for anything other than to get high.

Exceptions are AIDS and cancer patients, but even they seem to relish the fact that their medicine is pretty fun to take.


Perhaps that's because you didn't have painful warts on your feet for years that doctors couldn't cure but which cannabis cured in two weeks.  Or perhaps that is because you don't have MS, and therefore you haven't seen first hand that eating or smoking cannabis drastically helps relieve the symptoms of that terrible disease.  It helps many with Parkinson's also.  Cannabis helps and even heals more diseases than we can count, from simple warts to the most devastating diseases known to man, and it does so very cheaply.  That is precisely why big pharma lobbied the government to lie about it and make it illegal 80 years ago.  

It was not fun at all to rub cannabis oil on my feet to heal the painful plantar warts.  It didn't get me high at all.  Also, eating it in the raw form does not get you high but has incredible medical benefits.  Eating it cooked (or smoking it) does get you high... but that's not all it does.  It helps with nausea and appetite stimulation when you're sick, and it relieves the symptoms of many diseases also.

Wake up.
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« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2012, 11:54:55 AM »

Acts--The problems with your post are:

a. You are not differentiating in the several uses of the plant. There is plenty of scientific evidence that smoking pot is bad for you.

b. By stating your views so aggressively, you invite push back.

Plus, you just don't know when to quit.

Actually, I have differentiated the uses.  I rubbed oil from the plant to cure the disease on my foot.  That is totally harmless.  Eating it is harmless also.   Even smoking it is almost harmless.   Unlike smoking cigarettes, it does not cause cancer.  Apparently its cancer fighting properties outweigh any tars and chemicals that the burning produces.  The worst disease that "smoking" it has been shown to contribute to is tooth and gum problems in very heavy smokers from the massive amounts of tar that sticks to their teeth.  But even they don't get cancer from it!  

I hope I invite push back.  I state my case aggressively because the case against cannabis has been stated as aggressively as possible for 80 years.  80 years ago our government started spreading blatant lies about the plant and began putting people in prison to be raped by violent criminals simply for possessing and growing seeds God made.  How's that for "aggressive?"  And you call me aggressive for speaking up on the internet?

Most people have forgotten that it was only recently that cannabis received the massive social stigma it now has.  It was simply another plant for nearly all of human history.  The founding fathers grew it because it is useful as medicine, clothing, rope, food, etc. etc.   There were times in our nation's history that farmers *had* to grow it *by law* because it is so useful.  The modern stigma started in the 1930's after industry lobbyists (including big pharma) paid the U.S. representatives in government to start spreading lies about cannabis and make it illegal.  The power players in industry and media were partners then even more so than they are now since anti-trust was unheard of back then.  In the 1930's, when cannabis was originally banned, it was widely reported in media throughout the nation that cannabis somehow caused all sorts of crime and makes black men rape white women.  Government, corrupt politicians, jumped on the bandwagon and criminalized the "dangerous" drug (which had been useful medicine for thousands of years before it suddenly became "dangerous").  Men with connections to big pharma and other industries in the media spread lies like that all over the nation, and Americans ate it up like their doughnuts. In the 50's it made people go insane. In the 60's it made people lazy. In the 80's it killed brain cells. It was all lies; this has been proven now. In moderation it is actually very good for you. Studies have shown it grows brain cells. It is less addictive than coffee.   It has never, itself, killed anyone.  

Tylenol kills thousands yearly, and alcohol tens of thousands in this country.   Cannabis has never caused a single death.

Cannabis is very good for you as medicine.  Americans are brainwashed and nearly braindead when it comes to the truth about cannabis, and American churches are often the worst in these regards.

Open your eyes.
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« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2012, 11:58:17 AM »

Actually, there are Hebrew scholars that would say the oil very possibly contained cannabis.  
Who?
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« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2012, 12:01:00 PM »

Who?

See Rabbi Kaplan's 1981 translation, The Living Torah, pg. 40-41. Linguist Sula Benet (also known as Sara Benetowa) also did a lot of linguistic research into this ancient word in the early part of the 20th century.
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« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2012, 12:03:29 PM »

"Cannaibs" may be good for you in moderation but apparently it has a destructive effect on spelling.  Wink

Thanks for pointing the typo out.  Please forgive me; I often type too hastily.  Is there any way a moderator can fix the spelling in the title?  
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« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2012, 12:25:56 PM »

The fact that pot is illegal and acetaminophen is everywhere makes zero sense.

But it does keep that money coming in.

I doubt pot is extremely good for you in moderation. But for most people who can use it responsibly, I wouldn't be surprised to find it beneficial in more than a few ways.

But plantar warts?

Dude, this is a "disease" that historically has been known to respond very well to psychosomatic (heavy on the psycho) treatment. If that is what you had, HPV.



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« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2012, 12:30:28 PM »

Does Dr. David Allen have any actual science backing his claims up?

Funny that a heart surgeon is suddenly dabbling in pharmacological theory.

Yes, there is tons of science behind the claims that cannabis helps and even cures many diseases.  This is despite the fact that, at the behest of the big pharmceutical companies that lobbied the DEA to make it illegal in the 1930's (and still lobby that way today), the DEA has made it close to impossible for most institutions in the country to do medical research with cannabis. 

Get on pub med and read the medical journals regarding cannabis.  It clearly has a lot of medical value both as therapy and even as a cure for many ailments.  Nonetheless, the Federal government classifies it as "schedule 1" ("no medical value"), the most illegal classification possible.  If that doesn't smell fishy then you no longer have a nose, or you've stopped using your brain for so long it no longer functions the way God intended.

Don't be stupid, what "smells fishy" is that neither you nor this doctor are fulfilling your burden of proof. Neither I, nor anyone else, is obligated to do your homework for you. If you want to make a scientific argument, YOU go to PubMed and supply us with a well-written argument with appropriate citations. I am not going to do it for you; considering the fact that you appear to be seriously demanding that I do such, you really aren't in any position to be questioning anyone else's intellect.
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« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2012, 12:40:59 PM »

I have a hard time believing that anyone making pro-cannabis arguments really, in their hearts of hearts, wants to use it for anything other than to get high.

Exceptions are AIDS and cancer patients, but even they seem to relish the fact that their medicine is pretty fun to take.


Perhaps that's because you didn't have painful warts on your feet for years that doctors couldn't cure but which cannabis cured in two weeks.  Or perhaps that is because you don't have MS, and therefore you haven't seen first hand that eating or smoking cannabis drastically helps relieve the symptoms of that terrible disease.  It helps many with Parkinson's also.  Cannabis helps and even heals more diseases than we can count, from simple warts to the most devastating diseases known to man, and it does so very cheaply.  That is precisely why big pharma lobbied the government to lie about it and make it illegal 80 years ago.  

It was not fun at all to rub cannabis oil on my feet to heal the painful plantar warts.  It didn't get me high at all.  Also, eating it in the raw form does not get you high but has incredible medical benefits.  Eating it cooked (or smoking it) does get you high... but that's not all it does.  It helps with nausea and appetite stimulation when you're sick, and it relieves the symptoms of many diseases also.

Wake up.

Wow, look at all those grandiose claims of cannabis being the universal panacea without a single scientific source.

I'd love to know what the heck mechanism of action you think the chemicals in this plant have that it can be used to treat warts (viral infection), MS (autoimmune disorder) and Parkinson's (neurodegenerative).
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« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2012, 01:08:58 PM »

...you'll find people that even claim it has healed some forms of cancer!

But don't listen to me.  And don't listen to God either. Just ignore that pesky little verse in Genesis chapter 1 where God gives us "all seed bearing plants for food".

To be consistent (assuming you actually believe what you are saying -?- ), do you believe God commands you to eat poison ivy?
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« Reply #32 on: April 27, 2012, 01:23:15 PM »

Don't be stupid, what "smells fishy" is that neither you nor this doctor are fulfilling your burden of proof.

What do you mean?  What "burden of proof"?  This is a conversation, not a trial.  This is an internet discussion forum.  I'm a friend.  Just please explain to me what exactly you want me to "prove" to you?

Neither I, nor anyone else, is obligated to do your homework for you.
Again... what does that mean?  You're not making any sense to me; I'm sorry.

If you want to make a scientific argument, YOU go to PubMed and supply us with a well-written argument with appropriate citations.
Can I get you a cup of coffee while I'm at it?  How about a bowl of soup?  Here, open wide... here comes the spoon.  

Why would I do your homework for you?  You can type "cannabis" or "cannabis and cancer" in pub med's search engine and hit 'ENTER' just as easily as I can.

I am not going to do it for you; considering the fact that you appear to be seriously demanding that I do such, you really aren't in any position to be questioning anyone else's intellect.

I never asked you to do anything for me at all.  In obvious sarcasm, I asked you to ignore Genesis 1.  That's all.  Unfortunately, you seem to have taken me seriously as to that request.  So I now ask you instead, in all seriousness, to please believe the first chapter of the Bible.

I didn't ask you to do anything for me.  Rather, you asked me, "Does Dr. David Allen have any actual science backing his claims up?"  I said, "Yes," and pointed you toward them.  But holding your hand is not enough.  You need me actually pick up the spoon and put it in your mouth.  And if I did, if I cited some study or even three, you could easily just spit the mashed peas all over my face anyway.  No thanks.

Go read it yourself if you're sincerely interested.  I sense from your tone that you're more interested in being a sarcastic critic than in actually reading about this topic on your own.  I could be wrong.  But because that is my gut feeling, I'm not going to obey your commands nor even fulfill your requests.   There have been times on this website forum that I've been forced to do the homework for my sarcastic critics.  And those times have shown me it is, in a sense, like throwing pearls to swine.

Wow, look at all those grandiose claims of cannabis being the universal panacea without a single scientific source.
There are plenty of sources that are easy to find on the internet with Google and Pub Med.  However, there aren't enough sources in the world to convince you that Genesis chapter 1 is true, much less that cannabis specifically is good.

I'd love to know what the heck mechanism of action you think the chemicals in this plant have that it can be used to treat warts (viral infection), MS (autoimmune disorder) and Parkinson's (neurodegenerative).

I'm a scientist and a doctor, but I'm not a medical doctor.  Between two and four years ago, I read about twenty medical articles about the topics I have spoken here about, and much of it I did not understand.  But a lot of it I did understand, especially the conclusions.  If you want to read similar articles, or perhaps even the same ones, I have pointed you to where you can find them.  I did not save them myself.  I read them between two and four years ago.

But you don't have to be able to understand every word of every medical journal in order to see that when Dad finally decided to leave the laws of this world behind and give the child cannabis, in an attempt to save his life, the child was healed. http://www.kxly.com/news/Dad-Gives-Toddler-Battling-Brain-Cancer-Medical-Marijuana/-/101270/680588/-/biwphfz/-/index.html . You can also see a video of the story at http://abcnews.go.com/Health/video/dad-gives-ailing-son-medical-marijuana-13527143 . Or, see also see these men who treat their Parkinson's Disease with cannabis. You can see the medical relief of their disease almost *immediately*: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEOoa6Q4Bds and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvtD1zizLng and also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUSbJWpafnU . There are hundreds of other diseases and thousands of other personal examples.  

Love your neighbors, for Christ's sake!  The federal government has repeatedly lied to and deceived the U.S. population in order to achieve the current situation.  See, for one small example of many, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7PlWcnIens  .   If you will study the history of the prohibition, as I have, you'll find it very possible, if not even likely, his was done at the request of industrial lobbyists, often in the pharmaceutical lobby. The same have been heavily funding "the war on drugs" propaganda for at least as many decades as I've been alive.

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« Reply #33 on: April 27, 2012, 01:24:30 PM »

...you'll find people that even claim it has healed some forms of cancer!

But don't listen to me.  And don't listen to God either. Just ignore that pesky little verse in Genesis chapter 1 where God gives us "all seed bearing plants for food".

To be consistent (assuming you actually believe what you are saying -?- ), do you believe God commands you to eat poison ivy?

I don't think God commands me to eat any plant.  I believe that God made every seed bearing plant for me to eat... if I want to... in the proper amounts.  Native Americans ate poison ivy in moderation.
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« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2012, 01:24:45 PM »

The fact that pot is illegal and acetaminophen is everywhere makes zero sense.

Correct.  A 9 year old can stumble into Walmart and buy enough Tylenol to kill him and 30 others.  But my Father, God rest his soul, a grown man of more than 50 years, could not even store some cannabis in a safe in his kitchen to treat the cancer with (and also to treat the nausea and appetite suppression that seriously contributed to his death, side-effects from big pharma's often useless and harmful "healing medicines").  These backwards, demonic laws very possibly took my late Father's health and contributed to the death of his body instead of to healing.  I live in a medically free state, and I personally know many who claim cannabis saved their live during radiation and chemo "therapies."

But it does keep that money coming in.

I doubt pot is extremely good for you in moderation.

Read Genesis chapter 1 three times.  Or don't.  It is your loss.  Later on, don't say I didn't try to tell you.  For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.

But for most people who can use it responsibly, I wouldn't be surprised to find it beneficial in more than a few ways.

But plantar warts?

Dude, this is a "disease" that historically has been known to respond very well to psychosomatic (heavy on the psycho) treatment. If that is what you had, HPV.

Are you asking me a question?  Yes, plantar warts.   I had battled these warts for nearly a decade with the help of three different doctors that tried various treatments.  I always had two or three warts; and they are very painful when on the feet.  They get very deep and large.  It hurts to walk.  The doctors tried all kinds of things, and nothing ever helped.  Even cutting and freezing them off (the typical solution) only "worked" for about as long as it took for the wound to heal.  The wart would just come right back.  

I watch almost no "hollywood" and instead watch a lot of educational documentaries.  I saw a documentary with a lot of interviews of regular joes, people that had healed themselves of various skin and other cancers by eating cannabis oil extract and putting it on their skin.  This was around the same time I learned that kanehbos is in Scripture, extracted into oil.  I'm also an avid reader about a variety of subjects, and I came across some medical journals about HPV's links to cancer around the same time I saw the documentary.  My doctors had probably never read the articles; many probably spend their free time going on lavish vacations paid for by big pharma reps.  You do know that goes on, right?  

I also found some studies in pub med that showed cannabis' cannabinoids fight cancer.  I also remembered someone in the documentary saying it had cured their warts.  I put two and two together, having learned that HPV was linked to cancer, and I therefore I acquired cannabis.  I was curious about its spiritual benefits, as I've described in other places on the board.  However, I was also hopeful about its medical benefits.  I extracted its oil into a concentrated form prescribed in the book of Exodus (assuming kanehbos is cannabis), and I put it on my warts.  They all went away after about two weeks of treatment.  Totally gone.   For good; its been almost two years now.  

So don't doubt that it is good for me.  I know it is good for you.
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« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2012, 01:39:02 PM »

...you'll find people that even claim it has healed some forms of cancer!

But don't listen to me.  And don't listen to God either. Just ignore that pesky little verse in Genesis chapter 1 where God gives us "all seed bearing plants for food".

To be consistent (assuming you actually believe what you are saying -?- ), do you believe God commands you to eat poison ivy?

I believe that God made every seed bearing plant for me to eat... if I want to... in the proper amounts.  Native Americans ate poison ivy in moderation.
Not for food, but "supposedly" for immunity.

But it doesn't work for immunity or food.

Quote
Q.} I have a friend who is a city arborist. He knows a bit about plants as well as trees. He told me that it was possible to build up a relative immunity to poison ivy by ingesting the leaves of the plant in small doses over time. Is this true?
Submitted by: Josh, Knoxville, TN
A.} Back in April 1987 a study on ingesting poison ivy to develop immunity was reported in the Archives of Dermatology. The report said it didn't work. But cases of severe reactions in the mouth of people who have tried a nibble of poison ivy are well documented. The future may bring a pill that decreases sensitivity to poison ivy, oak, and sumac, and the pill may be derived from the plants, but no doctor I have ever talked to recommends eating poison ivy, no matter how small the bite.  http://www.backpacker.com/community/ask_buck/96

Quote from: acts420

I now ask you [iconicstudent] instead, in all seriousness, to please believe the first chapter of the Bible... that pesky little verse in Genesis chapter 1 where God gives us "all seed bearing plants for food"

What about seed bearing plants which are highly poisonous?
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« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2012, 01:43:45 PM »

Pot doesn't treat cancer. Bob Marley died of cancer, before he was even 40.

What gets me about these pot-worshipers is that they can never just admit all they want to do is smoke it for fun. They have to throw in all this fake b.s. to make them look like they have a purpose. Otherwise, you'd lump them in with the average person who likes to drink. Oh yeah, it kills germs, but you get this great buzz!    Roll Eyes
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« Reply #37 on: April 27, 2012, 01:47:23 PM »

do you believe God commands you to eat poison ivy?

Me:  Native Americans ate poison ivy in moderation.

Not for food, but "supposedly" for immunity.

But it doesn't work for immunity or food.

Quote
Q.} I have a friend who is a city arborist. He knows a bit about plants as well as trees. He told me that it was possible to build up a relative immunity to poison ivy by ingesting the leaves of the plant in small doses over time. Is this true?
Submitted by: Josh, Knoxville, TN
A.} Back in April 1987 a study on ingesting poison ivy to develop immunity was reported in the Archives of Dermatology. The report said it didn't work. But cases of severe reactions in the mouth of people who have tried a nibble of poison ivy are well documented. The future may bring a pill that decreases sensitivity to poison ivy, oak, and sumac, and the pill may be derived from the plants, but no doctor I have ever talked to recommends eating poison ivy, no matter how small the bite.  http://www.backpacker.com/community/ask_buck/96

Don't you know that studies can say anything?  Did your mother teach you to believe everything on TV (or the internet)?  I'm an avid backpacker, and I personally know a man in the Appalachian mountains who, at the advice of local Native American friends, ate poison ivy in very small amounts because he was always getting poison ivy when out in the bush.  He did get a reaction in the mouth sometimes.  However, he persevered and made adjustments to his regimen until he could eat it consistently without getting a reaction (in the right amounts).  Since then, he is no longer very sensitive to poison ivy.  He will get it if he breaks it on purpose and rubs it on his skin.  But he no longer gets it out in the bush.

There are articles about the Natives using it this way.  There are probably other uses for the plant too, in proper amounts, that we've not even discovered yet.  Bio-technology is rapidly growing and evolving.

I'm not telling you to eat it.  I'm not telling you to eat anything.  All I'm saying is that God gave us all seed bearing plants for food; cannabis is good for you.  But don't believe me.  Believe God.  If you can not believe even the first chapter of the Bible, then why even bother to read the rest?
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« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2012, 01:50:28 PM »

Pot doesn't treat cancer. Bob Marley died of cancer, before he was even 40.

What gets me about these pot-worshipers is that they can never just admit all they want to do is smoke it for fun. They have to throw in all this fake b.s. to make them look like they have a purpose. Otherwise, you'd lump them in with the average person who likes to drink. Oh yeah, it kills germs, but you get this great buzz!    Roll Eyes

Smoking pot does not treat cancer.  Go to pub med and read the articles about how pot has been used to treat cancer if you're sincerely interested.  Bob Marley?   As a Rastafarian, Marley smoked pot.  He has virtually nothing to do with curing cancer with cannabis.  Smoking pot does not treat cancer in any medical journal article I've ever read.  Smoking it often treats nausea that some big pharma cancer medications cause, but it doesn't actually treat cancer.  Eating it's extracted oils does treat cancer. There is no indication I've ever seen that Marley knew this, extracted cannabis into oil, or ate its extracts. 

See "run from the cure" (a documentary) where people eat extracted cannabis oils and use it on their skin to *cure* cancer, if you want.  Others ate it and claimed similar effects for internal cancers.  See also the same extracted cannabinoids in the pub med articles fighting cancer, if you want.   I'm not saying it heals everyone.  It doesn't.  Neither the documentaries nor the medical articles claim that.  I'm saying it has medical value.  It does.  A lot of it.

Open your ears.  We should educate ourselves before running our mouths.
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« Reply #39 on: April 27, 2012, 01:54:39 PM »

Don't you know that studies can say anything?
So can you.

Don't you know that studies can say anything? Did your mother not teach you to not believe everything on TV (or the internet)?  I'm an avid backpacker, and I personally know a man in the Appalachian mountains who, at the advice of local Native American friends, ate poison ivy in very small amounts because he was always getting poison ivy when out in the bush.  He did get a reaction in the mouth sometimes.  However, he persevered and made adjustments to his regimen until he could eat it consistently without getting a reaction (in the right amounts).  Since then, he is no longer very sensitive to poison ivy.  There are articles about the Natives using it this way.  There are probably other uses for the plant too, in proper amounts, that we've not even discovered yet.  Bio-technology is rapidly growing and evolving.
That's not very "scientific" of you. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence

But lets just say the Dermatological Journal is wrong and your anecdotal evidence is "right."

It still isn't about using poison ivy for food, and so fails to support your claim that poison ivy is food.
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« Reply #40 on: April 27, 2012, 01:54:59 PM »

do you believe God commands you to eat poison ivy?

Me:  Native Americans ate poison ivy in moderation.

Xariskai, you totally set yourself up for that one.

Acts, do you own "The Herb Book"? You seem like the type of guy who would own the Herb Book.
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« Reply #41 on: April 27, 2012, 01:58:18 PM »

Pot doesn't treat cancer. Bob Marley died of cancer, before he was even 40.

What gets me about these pot-worshipers is that they can never just admit all they want to do is smoke it for fun. They have to throw in all this fake b.s. to make them look like they have a purpose. Otherwise, you'd lump them in with the average person who likes to drink. Oh yeah, it kills germs, but you get this great buzz!    Roll Eyes

Smoking pot does not treat cancer.  Go to pub med and read the articles about how pot has been used to treat cancer if you're sincerely interested.  Bob Marley?   As a Rastafarian, Marley smoked pot.  He has virtually nothing to do with curing cancer with cannabis.  Smoking pot does not treat cancer in any medical journal article I've ever read.  Smoking it often treats nausea that some big pharma cancer medications cause, but it doesn't actually treat cancer.  Eating it's extracted oils does treat cancer. There is no indication I've ever seen that Marley knew this, extracted cannabis into oil, or ate its extracts. 

See "run from the cure" (a documentary) where people eat extracted cannabis oils and use it on their skin to *cure* cancer, if you want.  Others ate it and claimed similar effects for internal cancers.  See also the same extracted cannabinoids in the pub med articles fighting cancer, if you want.   I'm not saying it heals everyone.  It doesn't.  Neither the documentaries nor the medical articles claim that.  I'm saying it has medical value.  It does.  A lot of it.

Open your ears.  We should educate ourselves before running our mouths.

So, now you're just angry. Can't admit you were wrong, huh.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #42 on: April 27, 2012, 01:59:27 PM »


I now ask you [iconicstudent] instead, in all seriousness, to please believe the first chapter of the Bible... that pesky little verse in Genesis chapter 1 where God gives us "all seed bearing plants for food" [/size]

What about seed bearing plants which are highly poisonous?
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« Reply #43 on: April 27, 2012, 02:01:26 PM »

I have a hard time believing that anyone making pro-cannabis arguments really, in their hearts of hearts, wants to use it for anything other than to get high.

Exceptions are AIDS and cancer patients, but even they seem to relish the fact that their medicine is pretty fun to take.


Perhaps that's because you didn't have painful warts on your feet for years that doctors couldn't cure but which cannabis cured in two weeks.  Or perhaps that is because you don't have MS, and therefore you haven't seen first hand that eating or smoking cannabis drastically helps relieve the symptoms of that terrible disease.  It helps many with Parkinson's also.  Cannabis helps and even heals more diseases than we can count, from simple warts to the most devastating diseases known to man, and it does so very cheaply.  That is precisely why big pharma lobbied the government to lie about it and make it illegal 80 years ago.  

It was not fun at all to rub cannabis oil on my feet to heal the painful plantar warts.  It didn't get me high at all.  Also, eating it in the raw form does not get you high but has incredible medical benefits.  Eating it cooked (or smoking it) does get you high... but that's not all it does.  It helps with nausea and appetite stimulation when you're sick, and it relieves the symptoms of many diseases also.

Wake up.
I do not deny cannabis has some medicinal benefits in the same way that many holistic medicines have some benefits. And I am not going to begrudge people who are really sick that right...Go ahead and add Parkinson’s and MS to my list. You can probably find a few other debilitating diseases that I think are OK to smoke weed for if it makes their quality of life better.

I am saying, however, that I find it suspect any time anyone comes in touting the miracle benefits of any plant.  Usually it is because they are trying to sell something, but with cannabis...Well, you know my position. I have yet to see a miracle plant that actually does everything that you claim cannabis does, although I have heard similar things about blueberries, garlic and pecans. But you can’t make rope with those, huh? And you’re telling me the motives of most cannabis activists are totally pure?

BTW, I have been to the miracle oil shows and have heard the spiel. All it did was set off my BS detector.
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« Reply #44 on: April 27, 2012, 02:01:46 PM »

do you believe God commands you to eat poison ivy?

Me:  Native Americans ate poison ivy in moderation.

Xariskai, you totally set yourself up for that one.

Acts, do you own "The Herb Book"? You seem like the type of guy who would own the Herb Book.

I do not.  Is it a good read?
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« Reply #45 on: April 27, 2012, 02:02:54 PM »


I now ask you [iconicstudent] instead, in all seriousness, to please believe the first chapter of the Bible... that pesky little verse in Genesis chapter 1 where God gives us "all seed bearing plants for food" [/size]

What about seed bearing plants which are highly poisonous?

Some part of the plant has some safe use in some amount.
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« Reply #46 on: April 27, 2012, 02:03:59 PM »

do you believe God commands you to eat poison ivy?

Me:  Native Americans ate poison ivy in moderation.

Xariskai, you totally set yourself up for that one.

Acts, do you own "The Herb Book"? You seem like the type of guy who would own the Herb Book.

I do not.  Is it a good read?
It's a good layman's guide to have if you use a lot of herbs found in America. I'd disregard the intro about differential heated water therapy, though.
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« Reply #47 on: April 27, 2012, 02:04:44 PM »

Pot doesn't treat cancer. Bob Marley died of cancer, before he was even 40.

What gets me about these pot-worshipers is that they can never just admit all they want to do is smoke it for fun. They have to throw in all this fake b.s. to make them look like they have a purpose. Otherwise, you'd lump them in with the average person who likes to drink. Oh yeah, it kills germs, but you get this great buzz!    Roll Eyes

Smoking pot does not treat cancer.  Go to pub med and read the articles about how pot has been used to treat cancer if you're sincerely interested.  Bob Marley?   As a Rastafarian, Marley smoked pot.  He has virtually nothing to do with curing cancer with cannabis.  Smoking pot does not treat cancer in any medical journal article I've ever read.  Smoking it often treats nausea that some big pharma cancer medications cause, but it doesn't actually treat cancer.  Eating it's extracted oils does treat cancer. There is no indication I've ever seen that Marley knew this, extracted cannabis into oil, or ate its extracts. 

See "run from the cure" (a documentary) where people eat extracted cannabis oils and use it on their skin to *cure* cancer, if you want.  Others ate it and claimed similar effects for internal cancers.  See also the same extracted cannabinoids in the pub med articles fighting cancer, if you want.   I'm not saying it heals everyone.  It doesn't.  Neither the documentaries nor the medical articles claim that.  I'm saying it has medical value.  It does.  A lot of it.

Open your ears.  We should educate ourselves before running our mouths.

So, now you're just angry. Can't admit you were wrong, huh.  Roll Eyes

I'm not angry.  I also try to educate myself before speaking, and I try to keep my ears open.  That doesn't mean I'm an angry person at all.
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« Reply #48 on: April 27, 2012, 02:05:35 PM »

What about seed bearing plants which are highly poisonous?

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« Reply #49 on: April 27, 2012, 02:05:44 PM »


I now ask you [iconicstudent] instead, in all seriousness, to please believe the first chapter of the Bible... that pesky little verse in Genesis chapter 1 where God gives us "all seed bearing plants for food" [/size]

What about seed bearing plants which are highly poisonous?

Some part of the plant has some safe use in some amount.
For food?
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« Reply #50 on: April 27, 2012, 02:06:29 PM »

Don't forget the hemlock 'tea' they gave Socrates. A real winner.  Tongue Embarrassed
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« Reply #51 on: April 27, 2012, 02:07:32 PM »

Don't forget the hemlock 'tea' they gave Socrates. A real winner.  Tongue Embarrassed
I think Nyquil is still paying out damages for that one.
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« Reply #52 on: April 27, 2012, 02:07:49 PM »


I now ask you [iconicstudent] instead, in all seriousness, to please believe the first chapter of the Bible... that pesky little verse in Genesis chapter 1 where God gives us "all seed bearing plants for food" [/size]

What about seed bearing plants which are highly poisonous?

Some part of the plant has some safe use in some amount.
For food?

Nah, for rolling up and smoking, so he can feel good, and open a pot shop in California or something, and make a ton of money. And if he doesn't, lots of people have already beat him to it. You didn't think his only goal was to provide pain relief to glaucoma sufferers?
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« Reply #53 on: April 27, 2012, 02:17:57 PM »


I now ask you [iconicstudent] instead, in all seriousness, to please believe the first chapter of the Bible... that pesky little verse in Genesis chapter 1 where God gives us "all seed bearing plants for food" [/size]

What about seed bearing plants which are highly poisonous?

Some part of the plant has some safe use in some amount.
For food?

Yes.  Some part of every seed bearing plant can be eaten as food.  All the seed bearing plants were made for our good.  Indeed, everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving. And the Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. They order people to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.
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« Reply #54 on: April 27, 2012, 02:18:05 PM »


I now ask you [iconicstudent] instead, in all seriousness, to please believe the first chapter of the Bible... that pesky little verse in Genesis chapter 1 where God gives us "all seed bearing plants for food" [/size]

What about seed bearing plants which are highly poisonous?

Some part of the plant has some safe use in some amount.
For food?

Nah, for rolling up and smoking, so he can feel good, and open a pot shop in California or something, and make a ton of money. And if he doesn't, lots of people have already beat him to it. You didn't think his only goal was to provide pain relief to glaucoma sufferers?

Actually, my desire is to see that people don't have to die like my Father did, God rest his soul.  He got skin cancer; the same cancer I later saw people in the educational documentary "Run From the Cure" healed themselves of using cannabis oil extract.  My Father's doctors' treatments didn't work for him, much like my doctors' treatments for my plantar warts didn't work for me.  The cancer spread.   Eventually it had to be treated aggressively.  The doctor's treatments still didn't work, but they did make him very nauseous all the time.  He had trouble eating.  Cancer and the inability to eat are a very bad combo.  From what I've read and the patients I've spoken too, cannabis would have helped him greatly in his fight.

However, cannabis was made illegal in his State and Country about 70 years before he got cancer.  My hope is that someday children will see their fathers healed of this disease instead of dying a slow, dreadful, agonizing, and painful death over months and years from it.    
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« Reply #55 on: April 27, 2012, 02:30:28 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

This biggest casualty of the California Medicinal Cannabis laws is that they have become a farce, which wrongfully discredits those many thousands of sincerely sick people who use Cannabis therapy for their terminal and debilitating illness. REAL doctors for REALLY sick people prescribe Cannabis to replace five drugs in one: anti-depressants, anti-anxiety drugs, sleeping aids, appetite inducing drugs, nausea medication, and of course pain medicine. All of these drugs have a serious potential for side-effects and an even bigger risk of dangerous drug interactions.

This is not an apology for recreational drug abuse, but it is a defense for the legitimately sick people who benefit from Cannabis as therapy.  Recreational drug users are a separate issue, and if corruption has negatively effected medicinal cannabis in California, we shouldn't throw out the baby with the bathwater.  Stop the corruption and recreational abuse by unscrupulous doctors and dispensaries, but continue to recognize and respect the legitimate and honest medicinal uses by those honestly sick people.  I feel it is disrespectful to terminally ill and debilitated people to scoff what works for them simply out of politics or opinion.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #56 on: April 27, 2012, 02:44:04 PM »

Real doctors. Lol.
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« Reply #57 on: April 27, 2012, 02:44:53 PM »

Don't be stupid, what "smells fishy" is that neither you nor this doctor are fulfilling your burden of proof.

What do you mean?  What "burden of proof"?  This is a conversation, not a trial.  This is an internet discussion forum.  I'm a friend.  Just please explain to me what exactly you want me to "prove" to you?

I want you to provide some actual evidence of the wildly grandiose claims you are making.

Neither I, nor anyone else, is obligated to do your homework for you.
Again... what does that mean?  You're not making any sense to me; I'm sorry.

I don't know how to make it any simpler: Nobody is going to check PubMed for you. If you want to present sources, do it. Don't expect us to go looking.

If you want to make a scientific argument, YOU go to PubMed and supply us with a well-written argument with appropriate citations.
Can I get you a cup of coffee while I'm at it?  How about a bowl of soup?  Here, open wide... here comes the spoon.  

Why would I do your homework for you?  You can type "cannabis" or "cannabis and cancer" in pub med's search engine and hit 'ENTER' just as easily as I can.

But I'm not obligated to. You obviously have no idea how science works. In science, if you make an argument, you don't get to tell your audience "It's all on EBSCOHOST, happy searching", you are supposed to have based your arguments on facts and be able to defend what you say.

I am not going to do it for you; considering the fact that you appear to be seriously demanding that I do such, you really aren't in any position to be questioning anyone else's intellect.

I never asked you to do anything for me at all.

Then stop telling US to go looking on PubMed for the sources YOU should ALREADY HAVE to source your arguments.

I didn't ask you to do anything for me.  Rather, you asked me, "Does Dr. David Allen have any actual science backing his claims up?"  I said, "Yes," and pointed you toward them.  But holding your hand is not enough.  You need me actually pick up the spoon and put it in your mouth.  And if I did, if I cited some study or even three, you could easily just spit the mashed peas all over my face anyway.  No thanks.

Go read it yourself if you're sincerely interested.  I sense from your tone that you're more interested in being a sarcastic critic than in actually reading about this topic on your own.  I could be wrong.  But because that is my gut feeling, I'm not going to obey your commands nor even fulfill your requests.   There have been times on this website forum that I've been forced to do the homework for my sarcastic critics.  And those times have shown me it is, in a sense, like throwing pearls to swine.

Wow, look at all those grandiose claims of cannabis being the universal panacea without a single scientific source.
There are plenty of sources that are easy to find on the internet with Google and Pub Med.  However, there aren't enough sources in the world to convince you that Genesis chapter 1 is true, much less that cannabis specifically is good.

I'd love to know what the heck mechanism of action you think the chemicals in this plant have that it can be used to treat warts (viral infection), MS (autoimmune disorder) and Parkinson's (neurodegenerative).

I'm a scientist and a doctor, but I'm not a medical doctor.  Between two and four years ago, I read about twenty medical articles about the topics I have spoken here about, and much of it I did not understand.  But a lot of it I did understand, especially the conclusions.  If you want to read similar articles, or perhaps even the same ones, I have pointed you to where you can find them.  I did not save them myself.  I read them between two and four years ago.

But you don't have to be able to understand every word of every medical journal in order to see that when Dad finally decided to leave the laws of this world behind and give the child cannabis, in an attempt to save his life, the child was healed. http://www.kxly.com/news/Dad-Gives-Toddler-Battling-Brain-Cancer-Medical-Marijuana/-/101270/680588/-/biwphfz/-/index.html . You can also see a video of the story at http://abcnews.go.com/Health/video/dad-gives-ailing-son-medical-marijuana-13527143 . Or, see also see these men who treat their Parkinson's Disease with cannabis. You can see the medical relief of their disease almost *immediately*: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEOoa6Q4Bds and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvtD1zizLng and also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUSbJWpafnU . There are hundreds of other diseases and thousands of other personal examples.  

Love your neighbors, for Christ's sake!  The federal government has repeatedly lied to and deceived the U.S. population in order to achieve the current situation.  See, for one small example of many, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7PlWcnIens  .   If you will study the history of the prohibition, as I have, you'll find it very possible, if not even likely, his was done at the request of industrial lobbyists, often in the pharmaceutical lobby. The same have been heavily funding "the war on drugs" propaganda for at least as many decades as I've been alive.

May God grant us peace,


This is boring. Moderators, this is pseudoscientific medical information. The OP is suggesting that cannabis can cure serious diseases. Frankly, in the best interests of everyone's health, I want acts420 to put up the PubMed peer-reviewed medical research studies that explicitly support his claims, or shut up. Medical quackery isn't something that can be tolerated, it kills people.
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« Reply #58 on: April 27, 2012, 02:46:39 PM »

Thank you, laconicstudent. Well said. 
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« Reply #59 on: April 27, 2012, 03:05:26 PM »

What about seed bearing plants which are highly poisonous?

"Wormwood that maketh glad the heart of man, and botox to make his face to shine, and ephedra which strengtheneth man's heart."

Wormwood is great as it is used to make absynthe, the one substance that is possibly better than vodka at curing the ills of the heart.
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« Reply #60 on: April 27, 2012, 03:08:37 PM »

I want you to provide some actual evidence of the wildly grandiose claims you are making.

Can I get you a cup of coffee while I'm at it?  How about a bowl of soup?  Here, open wide... here comes the spoon.  Why would I do your homework for you?  You can type "cannabis" or "cannabis and cancer" in pub med's search engine and hit 'ENTER' just as easily as I can.  Your asking me to do research for you.  Do it yourself if you want it done.   I did it years ago.  I didn't write down the studies.  It would take me hours to read through all of them again and highlight the parts I found most significant.  We learn by doing.  Go do the research yourself if you're interested.  And if you're not interested, then don't.

I get the feeling you're just looking for something to pick apart.  If even Scripture can be twisted to our destruction, I'm sure you could twist 10,000 medical journal articles as you please.

But I'm not obligated to. You obviously have no idea how science works. In science, if you make an argument, you don't get to tell your audience "It's all on EBSCOHOST, happy searching", you are supposed to have based your arguments on facts and be able to defend what you say.

Yes, you are not obligated to.  And I'm not even telling or asking you to.  You asked me if the medical doctor the recommends cannabis in the video I linked to has any basis in science.  I said yes, and I pointed you to where you can look for further info if you're interested.  I'm not making a scientific argument.  I'm not a medical doctor.  I'm not here as an attorney or anything else.  I'm participating in a casual conversation on an internet discussion board.

... stop telling US to go looking on PubMed for the sources YOU should ALREADY HAVE to source your arguments.

I did not ask you to do anything in my OP.  You asked me if the medical doctor the recommends cannabis in the video I linked to has any basis in science.  I said yes, and I pointed you to where you can look for further info if you're interested.


This is boring. Moderators, this is pseudoscientific medical information. The OP is suggesting that cannabis can cure serious diseases. Frankly, in the best interests of everyone's health, I want acts420 to put up the PubMed peer-reviewed medical research studies that explicitly support his claims, or shut up. Medical quackery isn't something that can be tolerated, it kills people.

Why don't you do your own homework if you want homework done?  This is a casual conversation that you seem to be intensely interested in.  So go do some reading, educate yourself, and then come back.  I suggested a documentary and a website (pub med) and search term that will provide you with many links to specific medical articles.  

Yet you want me to do your work for you.  This same thing happened to me in the "premarital sex" thread when someone questioned if I actually had read ancient Jewish Rabbis that taught it was not a transgression under the law.  So I had to go find the specific Rabbi sources that I had casually read years earlier.  I was forced by the moderators, under threat of censuring me by closing my thread, to do the posters' homework for him.  Guess what?  The sources said exactly what they said when I had casually read them years earlier.  But of course all my work in tracking down the original sources again, work done from my own time and money, still didn't matter a lick to the poster.

If the poster who used the moderators to make me do his homework really cared about the homework he likely would have done it himself.  In my experience in various forums, it seems that those who use the moderators to force others to do their homework for them aren't actually interested in the homework.  They simply want a chance to spit the baby food back into my face. 

Feed yourself.  It is part of growing up, and we all must be growing up continuously if we want to be like Christ.
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« Reply #61 on: April 27, 2012, 03:15:06 PM »

I want you to provide some actual evidence of the wildly grandiose claims you are making.


Can I get you a cup of coffee while I'm at it?  How about a bowl of soup?  Here, open wide... here comes the spoon.  Why would I do your homework for you?  You can type "cannabis" or "cannabis and cancer" in pub med's search engine and hit 'ENTER' just as easily as I can.
But I'm not obligated to. You obviously have no idea how science works. In science, if you make an argument, you don't get to tell your audience "It's all on EBSCOHOST, happy searching", you are supposed to have based your arguments on facts and be able to defend what you say.


Yes, you are not obligated to.  And I'm not even telling or asking you to.  You asked me if the medical doctor the recommends cannabis in the video I linked to has any basis in science.  I said yes, and I pointed you to where you can look for further info if you're interested.  I'm not making a scientific argument.  I'm not a medical doctor.  I'm not here as an attorney or anything else.  I'm participating in a casual conversation on an internet discussion board.

... stop telling US to go looking on PubMed for the sources YOU should ALREADY HAVE to source your arguments.

I did not ask you to do anything in my OP.  You asked me if the medical doctor the recommends cannabis in the video I linked to has any basis in science.  I said yes, and I pointed you to where you can look for further info if you're interested.


This is boring. Moderators, this is pseudoscientific medical information. The OP is suggesting that cannabis can cure serious diseases. Frankly, in the best interests of everyone's health, I want acts420 to put up the PubMed peer-reviewed medical research studies that explicitly support his claims, or shut up. Medical quackery isn't something that can be tolerated, it kills people.

Why don't you do your own homework?  This is a casual conversation that you seem to be intensely interested in.  So go do some reading, educate yourself, and then come back.  I suggested a documentary and a website (pub med) and search term that will provide you with many links to specific medical articles.  

Yet you want me to do your work for you.  This same thing happened to me in the "premarital sex" thread when someone questioned if I actually had read ancient Jewish Rabbis that taught it was not a transgression under the law.  So I had to go find the specific Rabbis that I had casually read years earlier.  I was forced by the moderators, under threat of censuring me by closing my thread, to do the posters' homework for him.  Guess what?  The Rabbis said exactly what I had read them as saying years earlier.  But of course all my work in tracking down the original sources, from my own time and money, still didn't matter a lick to the poster.  

Often times, it seems that those who use the moderators to force others to do their homework for them aren't actually interested in the homework.  They simply want a chance to spit the baby food back into my face.

You have been asked repeatedly to provide evidence of several highly controversial claims about medical science, including but not limited to, that cannabis can treat cancer, multiple sclerosis, viral infections and Parkinson's disease. This is contrary to established medical practice and is highly dangerous. It is reasonable for me to demand to know just what peer-reviewed studies you think are supporting this.

You may not understand science, but I do. Some of us actually work in science and understand that "pointing someone in the right direction" is grossly unacceptable behavior. Put up or shut up, your level of argumentation wouldn't even get accepted to a conference or symposia, and if I ever tried to pass off unsourced writing and refused to source it with a response along the line that my audience could look it up themselves, I'd be sharply reprimanded if not dismissed from my position.

Again, put up or shut up.
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« Reply #62 on: April 27, 2012, 03:24:09 PM »

You have been asked repeatedly to provide evidence of several highly controversial claims about medical science, including but not limited to, that cannabis can treat cancer, multiple sclerosis, viral infections and Parkinson's disease. This is contrary to established medical practice and is highly dangerous. It is reasonable for me to demand to know just what peer-reviewed studies you think are supporting this.

You may not understand science, but I do. Some of us actually work in science and understand that "pointing someone in the right direction" is grossly unacceptable behavior. Put up or shut up, your level of argumentation wouldn't even get accepted to a conference or symposia, and if I ever tried to pass off unsourced writing and refused to source it with a response along the line that my audience could look it up themselves, I'd be sharply reprimanded if not dismissed from my position.

Again, put up or shut up.

These claims are not "highly controversial" at all, at least not where I live.  This also is not "contrary to established medical practice" where I live.

You don't "understand science" completely, and neither do I.  No one does except God because He alone is omniscient.   My participating in this casual conversation and linking to a video of a medical doctor is not at all grossly unacceptable.  What would be grossly unacceptable would be if, again, I am forced to do a sarcastic critic's homework for him.

If you want to know if the medical doctor in the video I published is right, then get on pub med and start reading.  That is where he gets much of his information.  I did it years ago, and read many articles.  I did not write them down.   They are out there still if anyone cares enough to go find them and read them.   If you actually cared about the topic at hand as much as you care about making me do your work for you then you would go look up a few pub med articles about cannabis yourself.   But you don't.  Instead, you want me to do your work for you.

Again, this same thing happened to me in the "premarital sex" thread when someone questioned if I actually had read ancient Jewish Rabbis that taught it was not a transgression under the law.  The moderators agreed, and to keep talking about the topic, because it was so "highly controversial," I had to take time off from work and drive around town to various libraries to track down the specific Rabbi sources that I had casually read in the library years earlier.  Of course the sources didn't matter a lick to the poster; all the sources in the world likely wouldn't matter.  If the poster who used the moderators to make me do his homework really cared about the homework he likely would have done it himself.  

In my experience in various forums, it seems that those who use the moderators to force others to do their homework for them aren't actually interested in the work to be done.  They simply want a chance to spit the baby food back into my face.   Feed yourself.  It is part of growing up, and we all must be growing up continuously if we want to be like Christ.
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« Reply #63 on: April 27, 2012, 03:24:45 PM »

I now ask you [iconicstudent] instead, in all seriousness, to please believe the first chapter of the Bible... that pesky little verse in Genesis chapter 1 where God gives us "all seed bearing plants for food" [/size]

What about seed bearing plants which are highly poisonous?

Perhaps they have some use, but for food?
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« Reply #64 on: April 27, 2012, 03:24:55 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

This biggest casualty of the California Medicinal Cannabis laws is that they have become a farce, which wrongfully discredits those many thousands of sincerely sick people who use Cannabis therapy for their terminal and debilitating illness. REAL doctors for REALLY sick people prescribe Cannabis to replace five drugs in one: anti-depressants, anti-anxiety drugs, sleeping aids, appetite inducing drugs, nausea medication, and of course pain medicine. All of these drugs have a serious potential for side-effects and an even bigger risk of dangerous drug interactions.

This is not an apology for recreational drug abuse, but it is a defense for the legitimately sick people who benefit from Cannabis as therapy.  Recreational drug users are a separate issue, and if corruption has negatively effected medicinal cannabis in California, we shouldn't throw out the baby with the bathwater.  Stop the corruption and recreational abuse by unscrupulous doctors and dispensaries, but continue to recognize and respect the legitimate and honest medicinal uses by those honestly sick people.  I feel it is disrespectful to terminally ill and debilitated people to scoff what works for them simply out of politics or opinion.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

 ^ this ^
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« Reply #65 on: April 27, 2012, 03:25:57 PM »

I now ask you [iconicstudent] instead, in all seriousness, to please believe the first chapter of the Bible... that pesky little verse in Genesis chapter 1 where God gives us "all seed bearing plants for food" [/size]

What about seed bearing plants which are highly poisonous?

Perhaps they have some use, but for food?


Some part of every seed bearing plant can be eaten safely in proper amounts, often effectively too.  And even if we don't yet know of an effect, we are learning about the plants that surround us more and more each day.  Believe the first chapter of the Bible.  Genesis 1:29.  All seed bearing plants.  Food.  Period.
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« Reply #66 on: April 27, 2012, 03:33:53 PM »

You have been asked repeatedly to provide evidence of several highly controversial claims about medical science, including but not limited to, that cannabis can treat cancer, multiple sclerosis, viral infections and Parkinson's disease. This is contrary to established medical practice and is highly dangerous. It is reasonable for me to demand to know just what peer-reviewed studies you think are supporting this.

You may not understand science, but I do. Some of us actually work in science and understand that "pointing someone in the right direction" is grossly unacceptable behavior. Put up or shut up, your level of argumentation wouldn't even get accepted to a conference or symposia, and if I ever tried to pass off unsourced writing and refused to source it with a response along the line that my audience could look it up themselves, I'd be sharply reprimanded if not dismissed from my position.

Again, put up or shut up.
These claims are not "highly controversial" at all, at least not where I live.  This also is not "contrary to established medical practice" where I live.

*looks for the sources that cannabis is a routine cancer treatment. Sees none.*

You don't "understand science" completely, and neither do I.  No one does except God because He alone is omniscient.   My participating in this casual conversation and linking to a video of a medical doctor is not at all grossly unacceptable.

No, posting medical quackery and refusing to provide your peer-reviewed sources is grossly unacceptable.

 What would be grossly unacceptable would be if, again, I am forced to do a sarcastic critic's homework for him.

Yeah, gee, imagine if you were forced to adhere to the same standards of discussion as a high school student writing a history paper. The horror.

If you want to know if the medical doctor in the video I published is right, then get on pub med and start reading.  That is where he gets much of his information.  I did it years ago, and read many articles.  I did not write them down.   They are out there still if anyone cares enough to go find them and read them.   If you actually cared about the topic at hand as much as you care about making me do your work for you then you would go look up a few pub med articles about cannabis yourself.   But you don't.  Instead, you want me to do your work for you.

Give me your sources. Researching your arguments is not my job.

Again, this same thing happened to me in the "premarital sex" thread when someone questioned if I actually had read ancient Jewish Rabbis that taught it was not a transgression under the law.  So I had to go find the specific Rabbi sources that I had casually read years earlier.  Of course the sources didn't matter a lick to the poster; all the sources in the world likely wouldn't matter.  If the poster who used the moderators to make me do his homework really cared about the homework he likely would have done it himself.

If you don't like being held to a reasonable level of research in conversation, I recommend you not have them or restrict yourself to purely subjective topics.

Hint: In discussing scientific topics, you will find that the other posters who are interested in science will hold you to a reasonable level of scientific sourcing for your points.  

In my experience in various forums, it seems that those who use the moderators to force others to do their homework for them aren't actually interested in the work to be done.

Trust me, I would be fascinated to read a paper demonstrating that cannabis can cure cancer. The mechanism of action would be fascinating, so stop whining and either give it to me or seriously, just admit you made it up.

 They simply want a chance to spit the baby food back into my face.   Feed yourself.  It is part of growing up, and we all must be growing up continuously if we want to be like Christ.

No, this is not how science works. Science is an empirically based, objective inquiry into natural phenomena. In science, our conclusions must be built on prior experimentation and observation. You must at every point in your argument provide concrete evidence and sources so anyone who is so inclined can look up all your material and do their very best to shred your argument. This is called academic rigor. I can't how childish it would be for someone to act like you are now and demand that his audience do his research for him. This is something you should have done BEFORE writing your conclusions. You should literally have a document on your computer with pages and pages of notes and references and a folder with dozens of .pdfs.

Where are they? Give me your sources. You are making controversial medical claims. Back them up. I want hyperlinks to abstracts in peer-reviewed journals.
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« Reply #67 on: April 27, 2012, 03:35:32 PM »

What about seed bearing plants which are highly poisonous?

"Wormwood that maketh glad the heart of man, and botox to make his face to shine, and ephedra which strengtheneth man's heart."

Wormwood is great as it is used to make absynthe, the one substance that is possibly better than vodka at curing the ills of the heart.

Better than chocolate ice cream?  Wink
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« Reply #68 on: April 27, 2012, 03:41:27 PM »

All punchlines aside for a moment. Does anyone know if any very prominent, well-known universities, such as Harvard or Oxford, or well-respected mainstream medical journals such as the Lancet, have sponsored or published any studies on the claims that pot is effective against cancer and other deadly diseases? If someone did come up with a really top-class, thorough, peer-reviewed study, preferably more than one, that would be something. I would take a step back.

There are so many cancer patients around the world, if someone did come up with a new, powerful, relatively cheap treatment, I'm sure the world would be interested to know what it is. It could even be said that it's your duty as a person of compassion to show whether this is true.

If you can produce proof, do so. Lots of people in cancer wards would thank you for it.
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« Reply #69 on: April 27, 2012, 03:41:37 PM »

Some part of every seed bearing plant can be eaten safely in proper amounts, often effectively too.  And even if we don't yet know of an effect, we are learning about the plants that surround us more and more each day.  Believe the first chapter of the Bible.  Genesis 1:29.  All seed bearing plants.  Food.  Period.
As you said, humans have ingested poison ivy to gain immunity to poison ivy.

But no one uses it for food.

Frankly your claim that poison ivy is food seems pretty stupid (no disrespect intended), but more power to you.

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« Reply #70 on: April 27, 2012, 03:42:06 PM »

...you'll find people that even claim it has healed some forms of cancer!

But don't listen to me.  And don't listen to God either. Just ignore that pesky little verse in Genesis chapter 1 where God gives us "all seed bearing plants for food".

To be consistent (assuming you actually believe what you are saying -?- ), do you believe God commands you to eat poison ivy?

No one is born allergic to poison ivy and the how quickly one develops an allergy to it varies.

I spent a lot of my youth cleaning out poison ivy without a care.

That all changed one fateful day in my mid twenties.
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« Reply #71 on: April 27, 2012, 03:42:25 PM »

*looks for the sources that cannabis is a routine cancer treatment. Sees none.*

*Never said cannabis is currently a routine cancer treatment.  Rather, said there are studies of cannabis in pub med that show effectiveness against a variety of ailments, including cancer.*

Give me your sources. Researching your arguments is not my job.

Do your own homework.  I posted a link to a video of a medical doctor's testimony, and I shared personal experience.  I read a bunch of pub med articles 2-4 years ago that tended to support what the Doctor is saying.  I did not write them down.  If I had written them down, I would gladly share them with you.  I can tell you where I found them.  Pub Med.  Search for cannabis, and look for particular interesting ones.  Or Google cannabis and (name that disease) and medical journal.  You'll get quite a few to pick from.

If you don't like being held to a reasonable level of research in conversation, I recommend you not have them or restrict yourself to purely subjective subjects.

I love reasonable conversation.  I hate being forced to do others' homeework for them, and I fear it may become a pattern on this board since I've already been forced by the modersators to do it once before.  That event started this same way, with a sarcastic critic too "busy" (or lazy?) to do the work himself calling for me to be forced to do it.  The moderators complied, and it was all pointless and a waste of my time as I knew it would be.   If you really cared about the Truth behind what the Doctor in the video is saying, then you would spend a significant amount of time researching his claims yourself with the resources I've pointed you toward.

Watch "Run from the Cure" the documentary.  That is what I did.  Do you want me to take the rest of the day off from work so I can spend hours watching it again?  Then I can send you the exact minute markers in the movie for you to review?  So you can just spit it back in my face and say something like, "Well, no doctor I've ever heard of told me to watch that?" or something.

There is no convincing you.  So don't bother making me try.  If you want to find the medical knowledge that the Doctor I posted a video of is relying on, you can find it in pub med (among other sources).  Heck, go talk to your own doctor about it if you're that interested!  
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« Reply #72 on: April 27, 2012, 03:44:01 PM »

All punchlines aside for a moment. Does anyone know if any very prominent, well-known universities, such as Harvard or Oxford, or well-respected mainstream medical journals such as the Lancet, have sponsored or published any studies on the claims that pot is effective against cancer and other deadly diseases? If someone did come up with a really top-class, thorough, peer-reviewed study, preferably more than one, that would be something. I would take a step back.

There are so many cancer patients around the world, if someone did come up with a new, powerful, relatively cheap treatment, I'm sure the world would be interested to know what it is. It could even be said that it's your duty as a person of compassion to show whether this is true.

If you can produce proof, do so. Lots of people in cancer wards would thank you for it.

To be fair, funding has been lacking in this area.

Politics run rampant in medical research.

Pot is NBD.

It ain't the manna from on high.

It ain't bad.

Enjoy it if you can. It certainly has healthful qualities. A lazy google search will show you, or just use some.

So does tobacco.

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« Reply #73 on: April 27, 2012, 03:44:31 PM »

I now ask you [iconicstudent] instead, in all seriousness, to please believe the first chapter of the Bible... that pesky little verse in Genesis chapter 1 where God gives us "all seed bearing plants for food" [/size]

What about seed bearing plants which are highly poisonous?

Perhaps they have some use, but for food?


Some part of every seed bearing plant can be eaten safely in proper amounts, often effectively too.  And even if we don't yet know of an effect, we are learning about the plants that surround us more and more each day.  Believe the first chapter of the Bible.  Genesis 1:29.  All seed bearing plants.  Food.  Period.

Really? You can eat monkshood?

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/govi/pharmaz/2006/00000061/00000009/art00001

Quote
The toxic effects of Aconitum alkaloids are known to affect mainly the central nervous system, heart and muscle tissues. Their toxicological mechanisms may involve interaction with voltage-dependent Na+ channels, modulation of neurotransmitter release and related receptors, promotion of lipid peroxidation and induction of cell apoptosis in heart, liver or other organs. Of them, the mechanism of interaction with voltage-dependent Na+ channels is quite well known, but the other factors are still unclear, and need to be further studied. This review focuses on the toxicological mechanisms of Aconitum alkaloids.
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« Reply #74 on: April 27, 2012, 03:46:46 PM »


I'm a scientist and a doctor, but I'm not a medical doctor.  Between two and four years ago, I read about twenty medical articles about the topics I have spoken here about, and much of it I did not understand.  But a lot of it I did understand, especially the conclusions.  If you want to read similar articles, or perhaps even the same ones, I have pointed you to where you can find them.  I did not save them myself.  I read them between two and four years ago.

I am. I frankly don't believe you. Anyone with the most basic scientific training you get in your undergraduate knows that refusing to provide sources is completely unacceptable behavior in any scientific discussion. If you don't have the sources at hand, or the will to look them up again, you don't have any business making all these wild claims.
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« Reply #75 on: April 27, 2012, 03:47:19 PM »

Some part of every seed bearing plant can be eaten safely in proper amounts, often effectively too.  And even if we don't yet know of an effect, we are learning about the plants that surround us more and more each day.  Believe the first chapter of the Bible.  Genesis 1:29.  All seed bearing plants.  Food.  Period.
As you said, humans have ingested poison ivy to gain immunity to poison ivy.

But no one uses it for food.

Frankly your claim that poison ivy is food seems pretty stupid (no disrespect intended), but more power to you.

No disrespect taken.  And since we're being frank, to me it seems pretty stupid to say a plant that is ingested is not food.  No disrespect intended.  More power to you also.
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« Reply #76 on: April 27, 2012, 03:49:28 PM »


I'm a scientist and a doctor, but I'm not a medical doctor.  Between two and four years ago, I read about twenty medical articles about the topics I have spoken here about, and much of it I did not understand.  But a lot of it I did understand, especially the conclusions.  If you want to read similar articles, or perhaps even the same ones, I have pointed you to where you can find them.  I did not save them myself.  I read them between two and four years ago.

I am. I frankly don't believe you. Anyone with the most basic scientific training you get in your undergraduate knows that refusing to provide sources is completely unacceptable behavior in any scientific discussion. If you don't have the sources at hand, or the will to look them up again, you don't have any business making all these wild claims.

This is not a scientific discussion.  This is a casual conversation between friends on an internet discussion board under "free for all" topics.  I posted a link to a video of a medical doctor.  Call up the doctor if you want more info.  Write him a letter.  Talk to your own doctor.  Spend a few hours reading pub med if you want.  Or ignore the post.  No one is asking you to participate in this conversation.  Feel free to leave or to stay.  But if you want homework done, do it yourself.
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« Reply #77 on: April 27, 2012, 03:49:52 PM »


I'm a scientist and a doctor, but I'm not a medical doctor.  Between two and four years ago, I read about twenty medical articles about the topics I have spoken here about, and much of it I did not understand.  But a lot of it I did understand, especially the conclusions.  If you want to read similar articles, or perhaps even the same ones, I have pointed you to where you can find them.  I did not save them myself.  I read them between two and four years ago.

I am. I frankly don't believe you. Anyone with the most basic scientific training you get in your undergraduate knows that refusing to provide sources is completely unacceptable behavior in any scientific discussion. If you don't have the sources at hand, or the will to look them up again, you don't have any business making all these wild claims.

Frankly, Acts420 is making you all look bad.

In case, you didn't realize. This isn't a discussion about science. And any person who has more than a minimal ability to reflect on language, probably would never use the words "scientific discussion", unless they were reflecting on the imprecision of others.
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« Reply #78 on: April 27, 2012, 03:50:28 PM »

This is not a scientific discussion.

You beat me to it within a second.
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« Reply #79 on: April 27, 2012, 03:52:49 PM »

All punchlines aside for a moment. Does anyone know if any very prominent, well-known universities, such as Harvard or Oxford, or well-respected mainstream medical journals such as the Lancet, have sponsored or published any studies on the claims that pot is effective against cancer and other deadly diseases? If someone did come up with a really top-class, thorough, peer-reviewed study, preferably more than one, that would be something. I would take a step back.

There are so many cancer patients around the world, if someone did come up with a new, powerful, relatively cheap treatment, I'm sure the world would be interested to know what it is. It could even be said that it's your duty as a person of compassion to show whether this is true.

If you can produce proof, do so. Lots of people in cancer wards would thank you for it.

Here's a start for you.  I entered the search term "cannabis and cancer medical journals" into the website "www.google.com" two minutes ago.  I got many hits.  The first link was to https://sites.google.com/site/marylandsafeaccess/Home/cannabis-cancer---the-science  .  There you will find tons of examples.  You can do this for many other diseases too.  You can also use Pub Med instead of google.  Read up all you want if you're interested.  The government is not going to tell you about this stuff, nor is the media.  Both have very tight ties to the pharmaceutical industry that has been attempting to keep cannabis from the population using all means possible for 80 years.   My experience, personally, is with my plantar warts (as I said).

Here is another link you may be interested in:  
http://www.healthiertalk.com/two-marijuana-cancer-studies-you-probably-never-heard-about-3361

Excerpt:  
Quote
In February 2000 researchers in Madrid announced they had destroyed incurable brain tumors in rats by injecting them with THC, the active ingredient in cannabis. The study was later published in the journal Nature Cancer Review.

Chances are that you have never heard of this study, the same as you likely never heard of a previous similar study because there has been a virtual news blackout as well as a concerted government effort to suppress such stories and studies for over thirty years.
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« Reply #80 on: April 27, 2012, 03:52:58 PM »

Some part of every seed bearing plant can be eaten safely in proper amounts, often effectively too.  And even if we don't yet know of an effect, we are learning about the plants that surround us more and more each day.  Believe the first chapter of the Bible.  Genesis 1:29.  All seed bearing plants.  Food.  Period.
As you said, humans have ingested poison ivy to gain immunity to poison ivy.

But no one uses it for food.

Frankly your claim that poison ivy is food seems pretty stupid (no disrespect intended), but more power to you.

No disrespect taken.  And since we're being frank, to me it seems pretty stupid to say a plant that is ingested is not food.  No disrespect intended.  More power to you also.
But if your definition of food reduces to "anything ingested"

isn't any poison one might consume, even if it results in certain death, "ingested"?

Would you then say that any toxic substance ingested in any amount, fatal or not, is food since said toxic substances are ingested?

You seem to be going to some pretty extreme lengths to defend your claim that poison plants, poison ivy, etc. are food.
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« Reply #81 on: April 27, 2012, 03:53:51 PM »


I'm a scientist and a doctor, but I'm not a medical doctor.  Between two and four years ago, I read about twenty medical articles about the topics I have spoken here about, and much of it I did not understand.  But a lot of it I did understand, especially the conclusions.  If you want to read similar articles, or perhaps even the same ones, I have pointed you to where you can find them.  I did not save them myself.  I read them between two and four years ago.

I am. I frankly don't believe you. Anyone with the most basic scientific training you get in your undergraduate knows that refusing to provide sources is completely unacceptable behavior in any scientific discussion. If you don't have the sources at hand, or the will to look them up again, you don't have any business making all these wild claims.

This is not a scientific discussion.

What are we discussing? Poetry? Classical sculpture?

  This is a casual conversation between friends on an internet discussion board under "free for all" topics.

Yes, on SCIENCE. And when you start making controversial medical claims without providing sources, it ceases to become casual, and you should know since you claim to be a doctor that there are ethical considerations.

  I posted a link to a video of a medical doctor.

Not a peer-reviewed source

  Call up the doctor if you want more info.

No, give me these supposed peer-reviewed sources you keep insisting exist.

  Write him a letter.  Talk to your own doctor.  Spend a few hours reading pub med if you want.

No, give me the peer reviewed sources. Act like a college-educated adult and give us the sources for your claims for heaven's sakes.

  Or ignore the post.

No, because ignoring medical quackery is immoral.

  No one is asking you to participate in this conversation.  Feel free to leave or to stay.  But if you want homework done, do it your self.

You have an ethical responsibility not to make unsupportable scientific claims which could lead people to make healthcare decisions that could be to their detriment. You have compounded it by claiming to be a doctor. Frankly, your behavior in this thread is grossly beyond the pale.
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« Reply #82 on: April 27, 2012, 03:54:47 PM »


I'm a scientist and a doctor, but I'm not a medical doctor.  Between two and four years ago, I read about twenty medical articles about the topics I have spoken here about, and much of it I did not understand.  But a lot of it I did understand, especially the conclusions.  If you want to read similar articles, or perhaps even the same ones, I have pointed you to where you can find them.  I did not save them myself.  I read them between two and four years ago.

I am. I frankly don't believe you. Anyone with the most basic scientific training you get in your undergraduate knows that refusing to provide sources is completely unacceptable behavior in any scientific discussion. If you don't have the sources at hand, or the will to look them up again, you don't have any business making all these wild claims.

Frankly, Acts420 is making you all look bad.

In case, you didn't realize. This isn't a discussion about science. And any person who has more than a minimal ability to reflect on language, probably would never use the words "scientific discussion", unless they were reflecting on the imprecision of others.

Ok, what do you think this discussion is about, if not science? Are you under the impression we are discussing say, Virgil?
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« Reply #83 on: April 27, 2012, 03:58:30 PM »

All punchlines aside for a moment. Does anyone know if any very prominent, well-known universities, such as Harvard or Oxford, or well-respected mainstream medical journals such as the Lancet, have sponsored or published any studies on the claims that pot is effective against cancer and other deadly diseases? If someone did come up with a really top-class, thorough, peer-reviewed study, preferably more than one, that would be something. I would take a step back.

There are so many cancer patients around the world, if someone did come up with a new, powerful, relatively cheap treatment, I'm sure the world would be interested to know what it is. It could even be said that it's your duty as a person of compassion to show whether this is true.

If you can produce proof, do so. Lots of people in cancer wards would thank you for it.

To be fair, funding has been lacking in this area.

Politics run rampant in medical research.

Pot is NBD.

It ain't the manna from on high.

It ain't bad.

Enjoy it if you can. It certainly has healthful qualities. A lazy google search will show you, or just use some.

So does tobacco.


Exactly.  But all the citations to all the medical journals in the world will not convince anyone to believe Genesis 1 nor to stop hating what God created.

But, to exemplify what you're saying, here is a start.  I entered the search term "cannabis and cancer medical journals" into the website "www.google.com" two minutes ago.  I got many hits.  The first link was to https://sites.google.com/site/marylandsafeaccess/Home/cannabis-cancer---the-science  .  There anyone will find tons of examples.  Anyone can do this for many other diseases too. He can also use Pub Med instead of google.  

Anyone can read up all that he wants to, if he is interested.  The government is not going to tell him about this stuff, nor is the news and entertainment media he probably watches four hours a day (on average, if he is American).  Both the national media and the government have very tight ties to the pharmaceutical industry that has been attempting to keep cannabis from the population using all means possible for 80 years.  Those ties were tightest when it was made illegal 80 years ago.  Anti-trust has relieved some of the closeness formally speaking, but it is still very much there especially at the informal level.

Here is another link from a quick google search:  
http://www.healthiertalk.com/two-marijuana-cancer-studies-you-probably-never-heard-about-3361

Excerpt:  
Quote
In February 2000 researchers in Madrid announced they had destroyed incurable brain tumors in rats by injecting them with THC, the active ingredient in cannabis. The study was later published in the journal Nature Cancer Review.  Chances are that you have never heard of this study, the same as you likely never heard of a previous similar study because there has been a virtual news blackout as well as a concerted government effort to suppress such stories and studies for over thirty years.

But none of this will convince anyone to stop hating what God created.  They've been brainwashed for almost four generations now.  They love the teachings of demons instead of God's word, even when science shows the truth in it.

You're also correct that people should try it themselves if they doubt.  But of course most are too close minded to actually do that.  I, for one, chose to try it myself, for my plantar warts, after finding many similar studies on Pub Med and learning that HPV (the root of plantar warts) is linked to cancer.  Sure enough, it cured my warts in two weeks.  In the days immediately after application they had begun to shrink rapidly.  In two weeks they were gone.  They have remained gone for years.   Under all that U.S. medical care had to offer, I had suffered from them for years prior to using cannabis oil extract on them.  Sort of reminds me of my late Father, and it makes me wish he had cannabis available for his skin condition back then.
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« Reply #84 on: April 27, 2012, 03:58:53 PM »


I'm a scientist and a doctor, but I'm not a medical doctor.  Between two and four years ago, I read about twenty medical articles about the topics I have spoken here about, and much of it I did not understand.  But a lot of it I did understand, especially the conclusions.  If you want to read similar articles, or perhaps even the same ones, I have pointed you to where you can find them.  I did not save them myself.  I read them between two and four years ago.

I am. I frankly don't believe you. Anyone with the most basic scientific training you get in your undergraduate knows that refusing to provide sources is completely unacceptable behavior in any scientific discussion. If you don't have the sources at hand, or the will to look them up again, you don't have any business making all these wild claims.

Frankly, Acts420 is making you all look bad.

In case, you didn't realize. This isn't a discussion about science. And any person who has more than a minimal ability to reflect on language, probably would never use the words "scientific discussion", unless they were reflecting on the imprecision of others.

Ok, what do you think this discussion is about, if not science? Are you under the impression we are discussing say, Virgil?

I am under the certainty you are being arrogant about that which you do not know about.

So when I discuss "painting", I have a paintic discussion?

And no you are not discussing science at all.

I imagine it is above your pay grade to do so anyway.

Scientific discussion is poor English usage. I don't go in for adjectives which suggest the genitive.

 
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« Reply #85 on: April 27, 2012, 04:00:40 PM »


I'm a scientist and a doctor, but I'm not a medical doctor.  Between two and four years ago, I read about twenty medical articles about the topics I have spoken here about, and much of it I did not understand.  But a lot of it I did understand, especially the conclusions.  If you want to read similar articles, or perhaps even the same ones, I have pointed you to where you can find them.  I did not save them myself.  I read them between two and four years ago.

I am. I frankly don't believe you. Anyone with the most basic scientific training you get in your undergraduate knows that refusing to provide sources is completely unacceptable behavior in any scientific discussion. If you don't have the sources at hand, or the will to look them up again, you don't have any business making all these wild claims.

Frankly, Acts420 is making you all look bad.

In case, you didn't realize. This isn't a discussion about science. And any person who has more than a minimal ability to reflect on language, probably would never use the words "scientific discussion", unless they were reflecting on the imprecision of others.

Ok, what do you think this discussion is about, if not science? Are you under the impression we are discussing say, Virgil?

I am under the certainty you are being arrogant about that which you do not know about.

So when I discuss "painting", I have a paintic discussion?

Yes, you have a "painting discussion". Awkward wording, but accurate. I think that was a typo.

And no you are not discussing science at all.

Then what are we discussing? This shouldn't be such a difficult question for you to answer.

I imagine it is above your pay grade to do so anyway.

Grow up kid. Jeez...  Roll Eyes

Scientific discussion is poor English usage. I don't go in for adjectives which suggest the genitive.

 

Were you going to answer my question, or just try to insult my intelligence?
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« Reply #86 on: April 27, 2012, 04:05:51 PM »


I'm a scientist and a doctor, but I'm not a medical doctor.  Between two and four years ago, I read about twenty medical articles about the topics I have spoken here about, and much of it I did not understand.  But a lot of it I did understand, especially the conclusions.  If you want to read similar articles, or perhaps even the same ones, I have pointed you to where you can find them.  I did not save them myself.  I read them between two and four years ago.

I am. I frankly don't believe you. Anyone with the most basic scientific training you get in your undergraduate knows that refusing to provide sources is completely unacceptable behavior in any scientific discussion. If you don't have the sources at hand, or the will to look them up again, you don't have any business making all these wild claims.

Frankly, Acts420 is making you all look bad.

In case, you didn't realize. This isn't a discussion about science. And any person who has more than a minimal ability to reflect on language, probably would never use the words "scientific discussion", unless they were reflecting on the imprecision of others.

Ok, what do you think this discussion is about, if not science? Are you under the impression we are discussing say, Virgil?

I am under the certainty you are being arrogant about that which you do not know about.

So when I discuss "painting", I have a paintic discussion?

Yes, you have a "painting discussion". Awkward wording, but accurate. I think that was a typo.

And no you are not discussing science at all.

Then what are we discussing? This shouldn't be such a difficult question for you to answer.

I imagine it is above your pay grade to do so anyway.

Grow up kid. Jeez...  Roll Eyes

Scientific discussion is poor English usage. I don't go in for adjectives which suggest the genitive.

 

Were you going to answer my question, or just try to insult my intelligence?

Answered and correctly assessed your ability to discuss the subject. After all if I can't even tell when I am discussing scientific methods or methodology, then I probably don't understand science (whatever that loose catch word means to people) very well.

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« Reply #87 on: April 27, 2012, 04:06:54 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #88 on: April 27, 2012, 04:09:55 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



stay blessed,
habte selassie

Go back to your scientific thinking. I knew that would get a rise outta you.
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« Reply #89 on: April 27, 2012, 04:11:55 PM »


Answered and correctly assessed your ability

When you can answer a simple question without a juvenile insult, please let me know, ok?
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« Reply #90 on: April 27, 2012, 04:14:48 PM »


Answered and correctly assessed your ability

When you can answer a simple question without a juvenile insult, please let me know, ok?

As opposed to an elderly insult?

Adjectives are becoming death.
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« Reply #91 on: April 27, 2012, 04:20:02 PM »

I have a hard time believing that anyone making pro-cannabis arguments really, in their hearts of hearts, wants to use it for anything other than to get high.

Exceptions are AIDS and cancer patients, but even they seem to relish the fact that their medicine is pretty fun to take.


Maybe, but while weed may be fun, it's not as fun as the other pain meds they give to terminal patients. Wink Treating GI symptoms is definitely the best medical use of weed.
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« Reply #92 on: April 27, 2012, 04:30:16 PM »

This is boring. Moderators, this is pseudoscientific medical information. The OP is suggesting that cannabis can cure serious diseases. Frankly, in the best interests of everyone's health, I want acts420 to put up the PubMed peer-reviewed medical research studies that explicitly support his claims, or shut up. Medical quackery isn't something that can be tolerated, it kills people.

But it only kills stupid people, so it's not that dangerous. If you get hurt because you follow unverified medical advice on a internet religion forum, don't you kinda have it coming? Wink

Oh, and you're not going to find much on PubMed, most cannabis research is pretty new so you'll find it in pure scientific journals, not medical journals. One of the Nature Journals would probably be a better starting point than PubMed. Not that there's anything wrong with that, it's still peer-reviewed scientific data, they just don't have to jump through the FDA's hoops...speaking for myself, the scientific method is good enough. Of course, you're still not going to find support for some of the sweeping claims that acts420 is making, you have to look for independent documentaries on Netflix for that. Wink
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« Reply #93 on: April 27, 2012, 04:38:21 PM »

I wont doubt acts' claim, but the polemics being discussed sound like it came from page 48 of last month's High Times....

PP
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« Reply #94 on: April 27, 2012, 04:41:37 PM »

This is boring. Moderators, this is pseudoscientific medical information. The OP is suggesting that cannabis can cure serious diseases. Frankly, in the best interests of everyone's health, I want acts420 to put up the PubMed peer-reviewed medical research studies that explicitly support his claims, or shut up. Medical quackery isn't something that can be tolerated, it kills people.

But it only kills stupid people, so it's not that dangerous. If you get hurt because you follow unverified medical advice on a internet religion forum, don't you kinda have it coming? Wink

Yes, I guess. I suppose I am merely just a weak softie who doesn't think even stupid people dying of medical misinformation is funny. Maybe if you listen to the sounds of an infant dying of pertussis, a disease we have a vaccine for, you'll see what I mean.

Oh, and you're not going to find much on PubMed, most cannabis research is pretty new so you'll find it in pure scientific journals, not medical journals. One of the Nature Journals would probably be a better starting point than PubMed. Not that there's anything wrong with that, it's still peer-reviewed scientific data, they just don't have to jump through the FDA's hoops...speaking for myself, the scientific method is good enough. Of course, you're still not going to find support for some of the sweeping claims that acts420 is making, you have to look for independent documentaries on Netflix for that. Wink

Probably not. But if acts420 is going to make grand sweeping claims about Cannabis treating cancer, MS and Parkinson's and it all being on PubMed, he'd better be able to back it up. Fortunately, the rules agree with me:

Quote
   * References & Proof -- Occasionally a moderator will make a formal request (i.e. in green font, explicitly stating that they're asking as a mod and not a user) for clarification of a point, references to support a point, or "proof" of an assertion made in the course of discussion.  Sometimes this request will come with a "time limit" or other stipulation requesting expediency.  These requests are made in order to facilitate open and honest discussion, without knowingly or unknowingly propagating false information.  Do not be offended by such requests, but do make all haste in fulfilling them, in order to allow productive and edifying discussion to continue.  We are just trying to meet our responsibility of fairness and remember we will all face the ultimate judge, Christ himself. We really want to make sure that our site is not responsible for advertising falsehoods whenever possible. No one on our moderation team is assuming anything you have said is not true; and, conversely, no one is assuming that your point is true just because you meet a minimum standard of "support." It is just confusing to try and figure out all the details and we are trying to be cautious. This is how Orthodox people are supposed to take all things, with a discerning spirit. Thank you for your understanding. We value your input on this site.

I think when someone starts saying "that eating or smoking cannabis drastically helps relieve the symptoms of [multiple sclerosis]", it is reasonable for him to be required to give us some evidence.
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« Reply #95 on: April 27, 2012, 04:42:47 PM »

I wont doubt acts' claim, but the polemics being discussed sound like it came from page 48 of last month's High Times....

PP

Which could have easily been avoided if acts420 would simply give us the links to the abstracts of the articles supporting his claim that cannabis can treat cancer, autoimmune disease, viral infections and neurodegenerative disorders.
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« Reply #96 on: April 27, 2012, 04:44:52 PM »

I wont doubt acts' claim, but the polemics being discussed sound like it came from page 48 of last month's High Times....

PP

Which could have easily been avoided if acts420 would simply give us the links to the abstracts of the articles supporting his claim that cannabis can treat cancer, autoimmune disease, viral infections and neurodegenerative disorders.
I think that is a reasonable request.

PP
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« Reply #97 on: April 27, 2012, 04:48:21 PM »

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« Reply #98 on: April 27, 2012, 04:54:59 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!




"Can you believe these pants are made entirely out of hemp?" Woody Harrelson

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #99 on: April 27, 2012, 04:58:02 PM »



Curses! I've been exposed!

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« Reply #100 on: April 27, 2012, 05:04:59 PM »

What about seed bearing plants which are highly poisonous?

"Wormwood that maketh glad the heart of man, and botox to make his face to shine, and ephedra which strengtheneth man's heart."

Wormwood is great as it is used to make absynthe, the one substance that is possibly better than vodka at curing the ills of the heart.

Better than chocolate ice cream?  Wink

Before I start, let me say that I LOVE chocolate ice cream.  But as an anti-depressant, I've never had the sort of sadness that ice cream could solve.  To be honest, alcohol doesn't really make you less sad, probably worse, but you don't remember it the next day!
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« Reply #101 on: April 27, 2012, 05:10:11 PM »

These claims are not "highly controversial" at all, at least not where I live.  This also is not "contrary to established medical practice" where I live.

You don't "understand science" completely, and neither do I.  No one does except God because He alone is omniscient.   My participating in this casual conversation and linking to a video of a medical doctor is not at all grossly unacceptable.  What would be grossly unacceptable would be if, again, I am forced to do a sarcastic critic's homework for him.

I 'understand science' completely, I may not know or understand all the conclusions drawn from science, there have been quite a few of them after all, but science itself, the scientific method, isn't all that difficult, many, many people have a rather good grasp of it, including a few on this forum.

Quote
If you want to know if the medical doctor in the video I published is right, then get on pub med and start reading.  That is where he gets much of his information.  I did it years ago, and read many articles.  I did not write them down.   They are out there still if anyone cares enough to go find them and read them.   If you actually cared about the topic at hand as much as you care about making me do your work for you then you would go look up a few pub med articles about cannabis yourself.   But you don't.  Instead, you want me to do your work for you.

Again, this same thing happened to me in the "premarital sex" thread when someone questioned if I actually had read ancient Jewish Rabbis that taught it was not a transgression under the law.  The moderators agreed, and to keep talking about the topic, because it was so "highly controversial," I had to take time off from work and drive around town to various libraries to track down the specific Rabbi sources that I had casually read in the library years earlier.  Of course the sources didn't matter a lick to the poster; all the sources in the world likely wouldn't matter.  If the poster who used the moderators to make me do his homework really cared about the homework he likely would have done it himself.  

In my experience in various forums, it seems that those who use the moderators to force others to do their homework for them aren't actually interested in the work to be done.  They simply want a chance to spit the baby food back into my face.   Feed yourself.  It is part of growing up, and we all must be growing up continuously if we want to be like Christ.

The reason you're being asked for more evidence is because of the incredible nature of your claim. Cancerous cells are distinguished from normal cells by a genetic mutation that interferes with either cell signaling or cell replication making the cell replicate without the restrictions that apply to normal cells. So for something to cure cancer, it must enter a cell, read the DNA, detect a problematic mutation (and there are thousands, if not millions, of possibilities) and then either correct the mutation, or at least destroy the cell, as needed. Certain treatments like mustard gas (which evolved into chemotherapy) and radiation can help because they tend to destroy faster growing cells first and, because of the nature of cancer, these tend to be cancerous cells (and hair cells, of course Wink), but they are very crude tools, a long ways from a cure, and actually have the potential to cause mutations that can turn into cancer in non-cancerous cells; if marijuana were to act on cancerous cells in this manner, it would actually be a carcinogen as well, which, of course, it's not.

So if you're going to claim cannabis cures cancer, you're going to have to explain which types of cancer it works on (ideally differentiated by their respective genetic mutation), tell us which ingredients in cannabis smoke work on these cancerous cells, and let us know the mechanisms by which they work. This theoretical foundation might not be enough to entirely convince me of your argument, it would be more than enough for me to give credence to your argument and start doing my own homework. But, from where I stand, the claim seems so outlandish (for the reasons stated above) that I could simply not justify taking the time that would be required to seriously study it.

Now don't get me wrong, I appreciate cannabis for its recreational value and even acknowledge that it has some medical purpose, mostly in symptom relief, but I'm not even close to convinced that it cures cancer, just like I don't take claims that diet can cure cancer seriously...help reduce risk, yes, but a cure? No.

I want to see cannabis become more socially and legally acceptable as well, but not at the cost of good science.
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« Reply #102 on: April 27, 2012, 05:21:05 PM »

This is boring. Moderators, this is pseudoscientific medical information. The OP is suggesting that cannabis can cure serious diseases. Frankly, in the best interests of everyone's health, I want acts420 to put up the PubMed peer-reviewed medical research studies that explicitly support his claims, or shut up. Medical quackery isn't something that can be tolerated, it kills people.

But it only kills stupid people, so it's not that dangerous. If you get hurt because you follow unverified medical advice on a internet religion forum, don't you kinda have it coming? Wink

Yes, I guess. I suppose I am merely just a weak softie who doesn't think even stupid people dying of medical misinformation is funny. Maybe if you listen to the sounds of an infant dying of pertussis, a disease we have a vaccine for, you'll see what I mean.

I agree, but at the end of the day, the buck stops with the parents who don't get their child vaccinated, regardless of the misinformation out there. I strongly believe that if you don't get your child vaccinated AND your child gets sick from disease that could have been prevented by vaccination that you should be guilty of child abuse and, if the child dies, of manslaughter. Withholding vaccinations is an obviously abusive act.

Quote
Oh, and you're not going to find much on PubMed, most cannabis research is pretty new so you'll find it in pure scientific journals, not medical journals. One of the Nature Journals would probably be a better starting point than PubMed. Not that there's anything wrong with that, it's still peer-reviewed scientific data, they just don't have to jump through the FDA's hoops...speaking for myself, the scientific method is good enough. Of course, you're still not going to find support for some of the sweeping claims that acts420 is making, you have to look for independent documentaries on Netflix for that. Wink

Probably not. But if acts420 is going to make grand sweeping claims about Cannabis treating cancer, MS and Parkinson's and it all being on PubMed, he'd better be able to back it up. Fortunately, the rules agree with me:

Quote
   * References & Proof -- Occasionally a moderator will make a formal request (i.e. in green font, explicitly stating that they're asking as a mod and not a user) for clarification of a point, references to support a point, or "proof" of an assertion made in the course of discussion.  Sometimes this request will come with a "time limit" or other stipulation requesting expediency.  These requests are made in order to facilitate open and honest discussion, without knowingly or unknowingly propagating false information.  Do not be offended by such requests, but do make all haste in fulfilling them, in order to allow productive and edifying discussion to continue.  We are just trying to meet our responsibility of fairness and remember we will all face the ultimate judge, Christ himself. We really want to make sure that our site is not responsible for advertising falsehoods whenever possible. No one on our moderation team is assuming anything you have said is not true; and, conversely, no one is assuming that your point is true just because you meet a minimum standard of "support." It is just confusing to try and figure out all the details and we are trying to be cautious. This is how Orthodox people are supposed to take all things, with a discerning spirit. Thank you for your understanding. We value your input on this site.

I think when someone starts saying "that eating or smoking cannabis drastically helps relieve the symptoms of [multiple sclerosis]", it is reasonable for him to be required to give us some evidence.

I generally agree. When I saw you asking for PubMed articles I mistakenly assumed you were trying to restrict discussion to medical journals when the most relevant information available is to be found in scientific journals...I didn't think you were setting a fair standard. But then I went back and read through parts of the discussion again and realized that it was acts420 who brought up PubMed...so my apologies. Wink
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« Reply #103 on: April 27, 2012, 05:28:43 PM »

This is boring. Moderators, this is pseudoscientific medical information. The OP is suggesting that cannabis can cure serious diseases. Frankly, in the best interests of everyone's health, I want acts420 to put up the PubMed peer-reviewed medical research studies that explicitly support his claims, or shut up. Medical quackery isn't something that can be tolerated, it kills people.

But it only kills stupid people, so it's not that dangerous. If you get hurt because you follow unverified medical advice on a internet religion forum, don't you kinda have it coming? Wink

Yes, I guess. I suppose I am merely just a weak softie who doesn't think even stupid people dying of medical misinformation is funny. Maybe if you listen to the sounds of an infant dying of pertussis, a disease we have a vaccine for, you'll see what I mean.

I agree, but at the end of the day, the buck stops with the parents who don't get their child vaccinated, regardless of the misinformation out there. I strongly believe that if you don't get your child vaccinated AND your child gets sick from disease that could have been prevented by vaccination that you should be guilty of child abuse and, if the child dies, of manslaughter. Withholding vaccinations is an obviously abusive act.

Honestly, I've never heard of someone being charged for man slaughter for neglecting their child in that fashion. Ultimately I agree it stops with the parents/guardians, but that doesn't mean internet forums need to tolerate medical mininformation being propagated through them.


Quote
Oh, and you're not going to find much on PubMed, most cannabis research is pretty new so you'll find it in pure scientific journals, not medical journals. One of the Nature Journals would probably be a better starting point than PubMed. Not that there's anything wrong with that, it's still peer-reviewed scientific data, they just don't have to jump through the FDA's hoops...speaking for myself, the scientific method is good enough. Of course, you're still not going to find support for some of the sweeping claims that acts420 is making, you have to look for independent documentaries on Netflix for that. Wink

Probably not. But if acts420 is going to make grand sweeping claims about Cannabis treating cancer, MS and Parkinson's and it all being on PubMed, he'd better be able to back it up. Fortunately, the rules agree with me:

Quote
   * References & Proof -- Occasionally a moderator will make a formal request (i.e. in green font, explicitly stating that they're asking as a mod and not a user) for clarification of a point, references to support a point, or "proof" of an assertion made in the course of discussion.  Sometimes this request will come with a "time limit" or other stipulation requesting expediency.  These requests are made in order to facilitate open and honest discussion, without knowingly or unknowingly propagating false information.  Do not be offended by such requests, but do make all haste in fulfilling them, in order to allow productive and edifying discussion to continue.  We are just trying to meet our responsibility of fairness and remember we will all face the ultimate judge, Christ himself. We really want to make sure that our site is not responsible for advertising falsehoods whenever possible. No one on our moderation team is assuming anything you have said is not true; and, conversely, no one is assuming that your point is true just because you meet a minimum standard of "support." It is just confusing to try and figure out all the details and we are trying to be cautious. This is how Orthodox people are supposed to take all things, with a discerning spirit. Thank you for your understanding. We value your input on this site.

I think when someone starts saying "that eating or smoking cannabis drastically helps relieve the symptoms of [multiple sclerosis]", it is reasonable for him to be required to give us some evidence.

I generally agree. When I saw you asking for PubMed articles I mistakenly assumed you were trying to restrict discussion to medical journals when the most relevant information available is to be found in scientific journals...I didn't think you were setting a fair standard. But then I went back and read through parts of the discussion again and realized that it was acts420 who brought up PubMed...so my apologies. Wink

No worries. I just kept repeating PubMed because he is the one claiming that articles supporting his claim exist there to begin with.
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« Reply #104 on: April 27, 2012, 06:30:36 PM »

I think when someone starts saying "that eating or smoking cannabis drastically helps relieve the symptoms of [multiple sclerosis]", it is reasonable for him to be required to give us some evidence.

I already posted a link to a video in this thread where you can see the relieving effects of an MS patient immediately after smoking cannabis.  It is almost like night and day.  But of course you ignored it.  And you would probably also ignore any "scientific" studies I posted, even if I spent hours tracking them down again.

The reason you're being asked for more evidence is because of the incredible nature of your claim.

What claim of mine is incredible?  That cannabis oil extract cured my plantar warts that 3 doctors over 10 years could not?  How exactly do you want me to "prove" that to you?  

Or is it my claim that I read a bunch of articles in pub med between two and four years ago that supported the conclusion that cannabis not only treats symptoms of cancer but that its cannabinoids have also actually been used to kill cancer cells?  If that's the "incredible" claim, then simply do a google search or pub med and you can read about it yourself.  It's true. 

I already posted a link to a page with a bunch of medical articles and studies concerning cannabis and cancer.  In fact, I posted it twice.   I'm not going to spend 10 hours reading through half of pub med to find the exact studies I read four years ago simply because laconicstudent would rather me spend the time than he.   I posted a link to a video with medical doctor.  I shared my personal experiences.  I'm doing this as part of a casual, friendly conversation.  If he so desperately wants more information, then he should do his homework.  
If anyone does not care about the topic, then he should not do his homework.  If he does care, then he should.  But if someone is not willing to educate himself when the education is just a few clicks and typed words away, then obviously he isn't actually seeking knowledge.  It seems to me such a person is probably seeking a way to sarcastically spit whatever I feed him back in my face.  I have no desire to help him do that.
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« Reply #105 on: April 27, 2012, 06:36:30 PM »

I'm not going to spend 10 hours reading through half of pub med to find the exact studies I read four years ago simply because laconicstudent would rather me spend the time than he.

Then stop making ludicrous claims about cannabis being a panacea for multiple serious medical conditions. It really is that simple.
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« Reply #106 on: April 27, 2012, 06:39:47 PM »

I'm not going to spend 10 hours reading through half of pub med to find the exact studies I read four years ago simply because laconicstudent would rather me spend the time than he.

Then stop making ludicrous claims about cannabis being a panacea for multiple serious medical conditions. It really is that simple.

Cannabis has proven to be an effective treatment for many symptoms of many diseases, and has even been used to completely cure diseases.  My former problem with plantar warts is just one example.  I have friends who have other examples.  I suggested an educational documentary that has more examples.  And, of course, I already posted a link to a page with many more examples of cannabinoid extracts (from cannabis) being used against diseases.  There is a ton of information out there.  Go find it and read it if you want.  Or ignore it.  "It really is that simple."  

If I were to force feed you I would be wasting my time.  You're a grown person.  If you really want knowledge, you already know where to go to find it.  If, instead, you simply want to be a sarcastic critic, then obviously you already know how to do that too.  The choice is yours.
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« Reply #107 on: April 27, 2012, 06:41:25 PM »

Cannabis has cured diseases? Are you ----ing kidding me?  Shocked
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« Reply #108 on: April 27, 2012, 06:43:06 PM »

I'm not going to spend 10 hours reading through half of pub med to find the exact studies I read four years ago simply because laconicstudent would rather me spend the time than he.

Then stop making ludicrous claims about cannabis being a panacea for multiple serious medical conditions. It really is that simple.

Cannabis has proven to be an effective treatment for many symptoms of many diseases, and has even cured many diseases.  I'm just one example.  I have friends who are other examples.

Then hurry up and post the PubMed studies you've been being so coy about.

  And, of course, I already posted a link to a page with many more examples of cannabinoid extracts (from cannabis) being used against diseases.

Which is unacceptable. Post the links to the abstracts of the peer-reviewed articles.

  There is a ton of information out there.  Go find it and read it if you want.  Or remain ignorant.  It really is that simple.  If I were to force feed you I would be wasting my time.  You're a grown person.  If you really want knowledge, you already know where to go to find it.  If, instead, you simply want to be a sarcastic critic, then obviously you already know how to do that too.  The choice is yours.

What I really expect is for you to stop spewing quackery all over the internet. However, you have the right of free speech, so I'm willing to tolerate this nonsense if you actually demonstrate your argument has some reasonable basis in reality. If not, then I hope a moderator comes along and tells you to put up or shut up, because this is ridiculous.
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« Reply #109 on: April 27, 2012, 06:45:10 PM »

Cannabis has cured diseases? Are you ----ing kidding me?  Shocked

Cannabis cured the plantar warts on my foot.  I've said this a thousand times and explained in detail how I used cannabis' cannabinoid extracts and how effective they were.   Are you a troll?

My former problem with plantar warts is just one example.  I have friends who have other examples with other diseases.  I already mentioned in this thread an educational documentary that has still more examples.  And, of course, I already posted a link to a page with many more examples of cannabinoid extracts (from cannabis) being used against diseases.  There is a ton of information out there.  I did a lot of research in pub med four years ago and found still more information about cannabis killing cancer cells in studies and all sorts of things.  Go find it and read it if you want.  Or ignore it and be a sarcastic critic of all I say.  It really is that simple.  

The links and videos (and links to cited studies) that I've already wasted my time finding for the critics here have been completely ignored.  Sarcastic, critical replies (without mentioning any of the cited material) seem to be the preferred response here.  I'm not going to waste my time giving sarcastic critics more ammo.
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« Reply #110 on: April 27, 2012, 06:46:47 PM »

Cannabis has cured diseases? Are you ----ing kidding me?  Shocked

Cannabis cured the plantar warts on my foot.  I've said this a thousand times and explained in detail how I used cannabis' cannabinoid extracts and how effective they were.   Are you a troll?

Are you? You've claimed to be a doctor and a scientist and you think you have adequate power with a sample size of a single person, much less yourself? You seriously expect your personal anecdotes to be taken seriously?
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« Reply #111 on: April 27, 2012, 06:48:25 PM »

I removed warts from my foot with some stuff I got from the corner drugstore. Besides, when have •foot warts• posed a threat to the future of humanity?

Really now, are you just high?
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« Reply #112 on: April 27, 2012, 06:49:52 PM »

Cannabis has cured diseases? Are you ----ing kidding me?  Shocked

Cannabis cured the plantar warts on my foot.  I've said this a thousand times and explained in detail how I used cannabis' cannabinoid extracts and how effective they were.   Are you a troll?

Are you? You've claimed to be a doctor and a scientist and you think you have adequate power with a sample size of a single person, much less yourself? You seriously expect your personal anecdotes to be taken seriously?

I grew a plant from a seed that God created a long time ago.  I grew it in my backyard, extracted oil from its flowers, and used that to cure in two weeks a disease that three doctors over 10 years could not rid me of.  

All I can do is tell you my experience.  I'm not saying you have to believe me, or that I expect you to take me seriously.  I'm just telling you my experience.  

The links and videos, cited documentary, and the links to cited scientific studies that I've already wasted my time finding for the sarcastic critics in this thread have been completely ignored.  Sarcastic, critical replies (without mentioning any of the cited material) seem to be the preferred response by a number of people here.  I'm not going to waste my time finding and then giving such sarcastic critics more ammo for them to ignore and, at best, chew up and spit in my face with biting sarcasm and preferred ignorance.

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« Reply #113 on: April 27, 2012, 06:54:55 PM »

Peer-reviewed studies. Published in journals. Papers from actual scientists in actual labs of real universities.

Not You Tube clips and not stories about your foot.

Come on, it's not hard.

The Lancet, the New England Journal of Medicine, hello?  Huh
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« Reply #114 on: April 27, 2012, 06:58:56 PM »

Peer-reviewed studies. Published in journals. Papers from actual scientists in actual labs of real universities.

Not You Tube clips and not stories about your foot.

Come on, it's not hard.

The Lancet, the New England Journal of Medicine, hello?  Huh


http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,44100.msg740251.html#msg740251

If you want, you can take two minutes to dig down into the links cited by the links cited by that link, which is to a post I already posted to you in this thread.   And if you do so, you'll find plenty of studies done about cannabis' effectiveness against ailments, studies done by "real scientists" in "universities."  And then you can again ignore them and come up with a witty, sarcastic reply.  

I can't even get the spoon near your mouth before you start spitting all over me.  And you want me to spend hours pouring through specific medical journals for you?  Yeah ... right.

Wake up.
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« Reply #115 on: April 27, 2012, 07:03:20 PM »

So, you're not going to. I get it.
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« Reply #116 on: April 27, 2012, 07:03:54 PM »

Peer-reviewed studies. Published in journals. Papers from actual scientists in actual labs of real universities.

Not You Tube clips and not stories about your foot.

Come on, it's not hard.

The Lancet, the New England Journal of Medicine, hello?  Huh


http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,44100.msg740251.html#msg740251

If you want, you can take two minutes to dig down into the links cited by the links cited by that link, which is to a post I already posted to you in this thread.   And if you do so, you'll find plenty of studies done about cannabis' effectiveness against ailments, studies done by "real scientists" in "universities."  And then you can again ignore them and come up with a witty, sarcastic reply.  

Or, you could take 10 seconds and copy and paste the ones which are relevant to your argument, which makes more sense with you having burden of proof.
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« Reply #117 on: April 27, 2012, 07:44:19 PM »

I'm not going to spend 10 hours reading through half of pub med to find the exact studies I read four years ago simply because laconicstudent would rather me spend the time than he.

Then stop making ludicrous claims about cannabis being a panacea for multiple serious medical conditions. It really is that simple.

Cannabis has proven to be an effective treatment for many symptoms of many diseases, and has even been used to completely cure diseases.  My former problem with plantar warts is just one example.  I have friends who have other examples.  I suggested an educational documentary that has more examples.  And, of course, I already posted a link to a page with many more examples of cannabinoid extracts (from cannabis) being used against diseases.  There is a ton of information out there.  Go find it and read it if you want.  Or ignore it.  "It really is that simple."  

There are most likely several beneficial uses of cannabis, mostly related to symptom relief, but I don't know that you can say any of them are 'proven', that is a rather strong claim to make. The problem is that there has been very little real research on cannabis because of it's status as a Schedule 1 drug and until it is removed from that classification it is unlikely that the research will be done.

Personally speaking, it has done wonders for certain medical conditions. I even recommend people try it for the relief of certain symptoms because the lack of side effects means that if it doesn't work it's not like you've put yourself at risk or anything serious (and I believe that statistics about deaths per year from marijuana use justify this assumption). But the fact that it works for me is meaningless from a scientific perspective, it's a non-randomly selected sample size of exactly one. Which gives us a confidence level of about 1 in 7 billion...now I might be able to make some assumptions my physiological relationship to the rest of the human race and improve that confidence level a bit, but not to a statistically significant level.

The problem is that you're asserting a scientific hypothesis, science has certain standards and "it worked for me and my buddy" doesn't quite meet those standards, there's a bit more too it. You have to, at the very least, quantify your research preformed in a controlled environment and the experiment then needs to be repeated under similar conditions and verified by an independent third party, all of this using a population large enough to give statistically meaningful results. Eventually you'll have to take into account confidence levels and population demographics as well, but for now, I'm just looking for the first part (I know the second part hasn't been done yet).

I actually had someone PM me some interesting information on this issue and it did not appear to be pseudoscience, it sparked my interest and I'm looking into it. But it takes more than a video of some dude in a lab coat, this is science after all.

Quote
If I were to force feed you I would be wasting my time.  You're a grown person.  If you really want knowledge, you already know where to go to find it.  If, instead, you simply want to be a sarcastic critic, then obviously you already know how to do that too.  The choice is yours.

If I took every claim that X cures cancer seriously, I was waste away my life in a flood of pseudoscience. If you're going to assert a scientific hypothesis it's your responsibility to support it.

Why do we feel the need to make up these extravagant claims about cannabis? Can't we just say that we like to get high, legalize it on those grounds, and then allow proper scientific study to follow. Drug prohibition is a 20th century phenomena that has failed spectacularly, that should be reason enough to decriminalize.

There are probably many great things about cannabis, there could be some negative side effects that have yet to be discovered (probably not, substantive negative side effects of popular drugs are usually rather easily discovered and well known, but it's worth a proper study). But the unfortunate reality is that we really need more research to be able to make these claims, the research simply hasn't been properly funded and undertaken, largely due to cannabis' status as a schedule 1 drug.
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« Reply #118 on: April 27, 2012, 09:08:53 PM »

Peer-reviewed studies. Published in journals. Papers from actual scientists in actual labs of real universities.

Not You Tube clips and not stories about your foot.

Come on, it's not hard.

The Lancet, the New England Journal of Medicine, hello?  Huh


http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,44100.msg740251.html#msg740251

If you want, you can take two minutes to dig down into the links cited by the links cited by that link, which is to a post I already posted to you in this thread.   And if you do so, you'll find plenty of studies done about cannabis' effectiveness against ailments, studies done by "real scientists" in "universities."  And then you can again ignore them and come up with a witty, sarcastic reply.  

Or, you could take 10 seconds and copy and paste the ones which are relevant to your argument, which makes more sense with you having burden of proof.

It's not 10 seconds.  I would have to go back and find the ones that convinced me of these things like two to four years ago.  I found them through pub med.  It would take a lot of time to find them again.  Just as much time as it would take you to go find a single one.

Do you act like this in casual conversation in your "in the flesh" personal life?  When sitting with someone at work, if they say, "Hey, I tried this, and it worked wonderfully for this disease I had....  I saw a documentary also, and people said it healed them," do you then berate them with requests for proof from university studies?  Then, when they provide some, do you ignore them and continue to troll the person for more studies from specific medical journals?  Or do you only behave this way online?  Seriously.  Do you treat people this way in the flesh?  Do you even have flesh?

https://sites.google.com/site/marylandsafeaccess/Home/cannabis-cancer---the-science

I already posted this link.  It took me two and a half seconds to find, and two and a quarter of those was spent typing "google.com" and then "cancer cannabis".  It was the first link under google's listings.  Do you want me to read the entire page for you?  

Ok, we'll start with the first line.  It says "MD SAFE ACCESS"  Agreed?  How about you try the second line.  Go ahead.  You can do it if you try.

Eventually you'll get to a link.  It is to a study regarding cannabis done at a university where cannabinoids were found to kill cancer cells in many cases.  If you take three or four more seconds to type "google.com" and "Complutense University and Autonoma University glioma cannabis" you'll soar across the interwebs like an eagle and land, again, at google's first listing, the peer-reviewed article Published in Volume 119, Issue 5 (May 1, 2009) J Clin Invest. 2009;119(5):1359–1372. doi:10.1172/JCI37948.  Copyright © 2009, American Society for Clinical Investigation

Would you like me to read the first line of that article for you also?

I would, but then you would find weaknesses in the science, which I'm sure there are.  Then you would troll me over and over to post another article.  And the trolling and berating would never end.  I could probably go find a study from Harvard University that killed cancer cells with cannabinoids and you would brush it off as non-sense.  I could then perhaps show that the DEA started an administrative proceeding shortly after said study to put cannabis in "schedule one" ("no medical value"), nearly banning entirely even medical research into the plant by anyone in the entire country regardless of qualifications.  You'd then probably tell me to put on my tin foil hat.  I might then show you Francis Young's determination, as DEA administrative judge over the regulation, that cannabis should not be illegal and is the safest of the therapeutic plants known to man.  I may show you that Nixon had his administration, heavily funded by big pharma, ignore the DEA administrative law judge and place it in schedule one.  You'd then perhaps tell me to go get high because I'm just some drugged up hippy.  I could deny it all day, but you'd perhaps judge me just like Nixon judged others, and just like the Pharisees judged Christ.

I'm not the first person in history to believe Genesis 1.   John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you said, ‘He has a demon.’  The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you said, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’  I eat cannabis, burn it as incense, and rub its oils on my diseases.  And you say, "What gets me about these pot-worshipers is that they can never just admit all they want to do is smoke it for fun."  All I'm saying is it healed my foot for Christ's sake!  Calm down.  I'm not saying it isn't fun.  But fun is the wrong reason to use it if that's all you see it for.  So I'm glad you don't use the stuff because you'd be perverting it anyway.  

Then you say, "They have to throw in all this fake b.s. to make them look like they have a purpose."  I'm telling you I used it to heal my foot.  Are you calling me a liar because of that?  Do you hate this plant that much?  Or is it my freedom you hate?  

Then you say, "Otherwise, you'd lump them in with the average person who likes to drink. Oh yeah, it kills germs, but you get this great buzz!"   The Pharisees also liked to talk about how much Christ liked to drink. But wisdom is proved right by all her children.
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« Reply #119 on: April 27, 2012, 09:10:30 PM »

isn't any poison one might consume, even if it results in certain death, "ingested"?

Would you then say that any toxic substance ingested in any amount, fatal or not, is food since said toxic substances are ingested?

You seem to be going to some pretty extreme lengths to defend your claim that poison plants, poison ivy, etc. are food.

Every seed bearing plant has parts that can be ingested safely in certain amounts and which are in some sense beneficial when ingested.  I call those parts "food."  Mine is not an extreme position.
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« Reply #120 on: April 27, 2012, 09:12:38 PM »

So, Acts, you then rant and rave about me, changing the subject, and throwing out another clump of obfustication that is worse than a cat playing with yarn.

Quit whining. All you do is shill.
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« Reply #121 on: April 27, 2012, 09:15:55 PM »

"Cannaibs" may be good for you in moderation but apparently it has a destructive effect on spelling.  Wink

I couldn't help but to laugh at that!  Grin


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« Reply #122 on: April 27, 2012, 09:17:26 PM »

So, Acts, you then rant and rave about me, changing the subject, and throwing out another clump of obfustication that is worse than a cat playing with yarn.

Quit whining. All you do is shill.

Biro, Christ is Risen!

Thank you for the advice.

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« Reply #123 on: April 28, 2012, 12:32:27 AM »

As you said, humans have ingested poison ivy to gain immunity to poison ivy.

But no one uses it for food.


Frankly your claim that poison ivy is food seems pretty stupid (no disrespect intended), but more power to you.


No disrespect taken. And since we're being frank, to me it seems pretty stupid to say a plant that is ingested is not food.
isn't any poison one might consume, even if it results in certain death, "ingested"?

Would you then say that any toxic substance ingested in any amount, fatal or not, is food since said toxic substances are ingested?

You seem to be going to some pretty extreme lengths to defend your claim that poison plants, poison ivy, etc. are food.

Every seed bearing plant has parts that can be ingested safely in certain amounts and which are in some sense beneficial when ingested.  I call those parts "food."  Mine is not an extreme position.

As questionable as your last answer also seems to me, you're actually answering what I didn't ask. I'll try to spell it out more clearly; apologies if my question was confusing to you.

You said it was "stupid" to say any plant which is ingested is not food
 

If ingested, a plant is food, end of story, Q. E. D. (your claim)

We would have to conclude hemlock that killed Socrates' tea is therefore food because Socrates ingested it (given your claim)

And therefore that poison ivy, nightshade, hemlock, whatever, is all food -simply if someone ingests it.

But if a dog ingests antifreeze and dies, antifreeze is not dog food simply because the antifreeze was ingested.

Saying it is stupid to deny that any plant that is ingested is not food, also seems to be a pretty dubious argument.

Using a dubious corollary to defend your previous claim, also dubious, that "poison ivy is food,"
is what I was referring to when I said the lengths you go to to defend an idiosyncratic position seems a bit extreme; who knows what kind of argument you will come up with next, but we know you will think of something!

I should say -I do say- I don't think *you* are stupid, at all, even if you don't get quite what is being said to you a lot of the time and reply to something that wasn't quite the point; to the contrary, you are perhaps in ways too creatively intelligent in that I'm pretty sure you could find a way to defend the proposition that the sea is made of Coca Cola against all comers if you wanted to. That wouldn't make the idea that the sea is made of Coca Cola more plausible to us, but we would all have jolly good fun having that discussion.

Lastly, you seem to miss my point in saying you seem to go to extreme lengths to defend your claims and brought up something else, and said *that* wasn't extreme. You said:
Quote from: acts420
"Every seed bearing plant has parts that can be ingested safely in certain amounts and which are in some sense beneficial when ingested.  I call those parts "food."  Mine is not an extreme position.
But I do think that also seems on the fringe. Though it wasn't what I was talking about, we can discuss that too.

If it is not "extreme" to suggest that all poisonous plants *are* really good for food (even if we don't *know* it yet aside from your personal take on the implications of ), what is it? Mainstream/normative?
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« Reply #124 on: April 28, 2012, 01:02:39 AM »

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« Reply #125 on: May 01, 2012, 02:34:36 AM »

acts420:  Your excessively belligerent approach to pontificating has provoked much of the pushback you have received on this thread. Whereas I agree that this is not a scientific discussion that demands the kind of proof laconicstudent has asked of you, I do believe that simple politeness and the common desire to maintain peace on this thread place on you some burden to post the sources he's requesting. I encourage you to stop blowing him off and instead post some of the sources you say you've read on the medical benefits of cannabis.

That said, it's certainly within the prerogative of your audience to read more to verify your claims if they want to, just as the Bereans read the Scriptures to verify St. Paul's claims. However, it is still incumbent upon you to first make a convincing case for your point of view. You have resisted doing so, despite others' increasingly insistent demands that you substantiate your claims. I therefore think laconicstudent's request for sources reasonable and formally expect that, if you wish to rejoin this discussion, you will fulfill his request within the next 72 hours.


laconicstudent:  acts420 is not giving specific medical advice to a specific individual based on information that individual has shared on this forum. He has merely asserted his general understanding of medical conditions for which cannabis may be an effective treatment. If anyone here is actually foolish enough to follow acts420's "advice" without first consulting with a physician or at least conducting his own research, then his stupidity is on his own shoulders. I don't know that we bear any more responsibility to protect such idiots from the consequences of their own stupidity than to post a formal disclaimer that acts420's "advice" is to be taken as nothing more than the pontification of an anonymous Internet poster and that no one should experiment with following it outside the supervision of a physician.


All:  FWIW, I live in a state where the use of marijuana is legal when prescribed by a physician, so I find myself somewhat inclined to agree (not as a moderator, but as merely an anonymous Internet yahoo) with many of the assertions acts420 has made of its medicinal value. (I even signed a petition earlier this spring to put on the fall ballot in my state a voter initiative to legalize marijuana for all purposes, though I don't have any use for it myself.) I just think we could all do well to ratchet down our rhetoric several notches. Consider my decision to reopen this thread an expression of my faith that you will do so. If the thread explodes once again into a burning mess of belligerent pontifications and demands for proof, however, it will be locked permanently and formal discipline may be meted out to make sure everyone understands that the kind of inflammatory dialogue I've seen here is inimical to the mission of the OC.net discussion forum and will not be tolerated.
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« Reply #126 on: May 01, 2012, 04:50:27 PM »

acts420:  Your excessively belligerent approach to pontificating has provoked much of the pushback you have received on this thread.

I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Whereas I agree that this is not a scientific discussion that demands the kind of proof laconicstudent has asked of you, I do believe that simple politeness and the common desire to maintain peace on this thread place on you some burden to post the sources he's requesting. I encourage you to stop blowing him off and instead post some of the sources you say you've read on the medical benefits of cannabis.

Please be specific.  I already cited a peer-reviewed scientific article, before you locked the thread, showing that the cannabinoids in cannabis have been used against diseased cells in medical experiments.  And I made clear that more are to be find at the link I have already provided.  I had provided a link to that article and more, but I kept on getting trolled to actually post a citation.  So I clicked into my own link from page two of this thread, copied the citation, and pasted it here on page three for these people. How many more articles do I need go copy and paste to this page, from the link I gave on page two, in order to be "polite?"

Biro has for whatever reason asked me to provided specific articles from "The Lancet" and "the New England Journal of Medicine."  laconicstudent has quoted his demand in one of his posts to me, and asked me to copy and paste relevant medical articles.  Are you saying I must now take time off to find these journals, pour through them for articles related to cannabis, and post my findings for biro and laconicstudent?  Or do you mean I must simply copy and paste more articles from the page I've already posted a link to?  (I already copied and pasted one article from that page.)  How many more articles do I need to cut and paste, exactly?  Or do I just need to search for "cannabis" in pub med and copy and paste some articles from there to here?

That said, it's certainly within the prerogative of your audience to read more to verify your claims if they want to, just as the Bereans read the Scriptures to verify St. Paul's claims. However, it is still incumbent upon you to first make a convincing case for your point of view. You have resisted doing so, despite others' increasingly insistent demands that you substantiate your claims. I therefore think laconicstudent's request for sources reasonable and formally expect that, if you wish to rejoin this discussion, you will fulfill his request within the next 72 hours.

If I simply need to provide a peer-reviewed article found from searching pub med, then here is one I found after a quick search in pub med for "cannabis."   "As a medical drug, marijuana should be available for patients who do not adequately respond to currently available therapies."  Analysis of the medical use of marijuana and its societal implications; Taylor HG; Journal of the American Pharmaceutical Association (Washington,D.C.). 1998 Mar-Apr;38(2):220-7.

My assertion has been very simple.  Cannabis healed me, others say it has healed them, and medical science has shown it can be used therapeutically.  As far as my own disease and healing, all I can provide is my own testimony.  For others, I cited an educational documentary video where others make similar claims by name on video record.  I provided the testimony of a medical doctor regarding cannabis' medical benefits in the video I linked to in the original post.  I cited a journal article anyone can read, even before this thread was locked, and cited a database where more such articles can be found.   Now I've searched that database myself and posted another scientific, peer-reviewed journal article that anyone can read.

Is this enough yet?  May I please talk freely here now about my experiences with the plants God created?

acts420's "advice" is to be taken as nothing more than the pontification of an anonymous Internet poster

Actually, I'm not anonymous.  My website is posted under every post of mine, and there anyone can find my name and phone number in case he or she would like to speak to me.  If anyone wants to meet me, he can feel free to give me a call and we can arrange a meeting.  I live in San Francisco.

All: ... If the thread explodes once again into a burning mess of belligerent pontifications and demands for proof, however, it will be locked permanently and formal discipline may be meted out to make sure everyone understands that the kind of inflammatory dialogue I've seen here is inimical to the mission of the OC.net discussion forum and will not be tolerated.[/b][/color]

If you could list specific examples of my excessively belligerent behavior, I would appreciate it.  Then I could attempt to conform myself to your principles and avoid your formal discipline.   Please be careful though.  There is a time when it is right and orthodox to respond to sarcasm with sarcasm.  "Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you yourself will be just like him.  Answer a fool according to his folly, or he will be wise in his own eyes."  I only walked them through the links I posted as if they could not do so themselves, to the scientific article I already provided, after they repeatedly ignored it while continuing to request a peer-reviewed, scientific article again and again.   I had provided it.  They had ignored it.  I told them they were ignoring it.  They continued to ignore it and request articles like it.  So I finally used some of their sarcasm back at them.  I honestly don't know what else to do.

If the blind man that Christ healed told people how his disease had been removed, and if a bunch of Pharisees became belligerently upset because he mentioned the c-word, then I would be very careful before accusing that man of being excessively belligerent simply because of his zeal for the c-word.  Wonderful medicines tend not only to make people thankful.  Often they'll make those they've healed want to tell others about it, especially if they love their neighbors.

I used cannabis to heal myself of a disease that had been plaguing me for years and which my doctors could not heal.  I have since found that many have similar experiences, and a large number of doctors acknowledge cannabis' medical benefits.  If saying so makes me belligerent, then lock my discussions about cannabis.  God have mercy on us.
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« Reply #127 on: May 01, 2012, 05:04:35 PM »

Frankly your claim that poison ivy is food seems pretty stupid (no disrespect intended), but more power to you.

Quote from: acts420
No disrespect taken.  And since we're being frank, to me it seems pretty stupid to say a plant that is ingested is not food.

You seem to be going to some pretty extreme lengths to defend your claim that poison plants, poison ivy, etc. are food.

Quote from: acts420
Every seed bearing plant has parts that can be ingested safely in certain amounts and which are in some sense beneficial when ingested.  I call those parts "food."  Mine is not an extreme position.

As questionable as your answer is, you're actually answering what I didn't ask. I'll try to spell it out more clearly; apologies if my question was confusing to you.  

I have answered your question, but obviously you think I did not.  I'll try to write it more clearly this time, and hopefully we will be able to communicate effectively.

You said it was "stupid" to say any plant which is ingested is not food

You used the word "stupid," and then I used your word.  But more importantly, I then further clarified what "food" is.  Specifically, I said, "Every seed bearing plant has parts that can be ingested safely in certain amounts and which are in some sense beneficial when ingested.  I call those parts 'food.'"  

Therefore, food is the amount of any plant's parts that can be eaten for our benefit.  If plants have parts that do not benefit us, then those parts are not food.  If it has amounts that do not benefit us, then those amounts are not food.  It is in this sense of 'proper amount' and 'proper parts' that all seed bearing plants were given to us for our food.

 
If ingested, a plant is food, end of story, Q. E. D. (your claim)
 

Wrong.  That is not my claim.  

We would have to conclude hemlock that killed Socrates' tea is therefore food because Socrates ingested it (given your claim)
 

No.  He ate hemlock in a way that killed him.  So I would say he did not use it as food.  I could say "not food," but more accurately I could say "food abuse."  People die from eating hamburger too, after all; it just takes longer.

The point is, even hemlock is beneficial in smaller amounts.  So even it can be used as "food" according to my definition.  Historically, hemlock was used as medicine in very small amounts.  Hemlock is an extremely unique plant because the line between toxic and beneficial for that plant is very fine.  So people had to be very careful.  It could easily turn into poison.  Nonetheless, it is food, just as God said it is, when used in the proper amounts.

And therefore that poison ivy, nightshade, hemlock, whatever, is all food -simply if someone ingests it.
 

Right.  They just have to be careful not to abuse the foods, not to have too much.

But if a dog ingests antifreeze and dies, antifreeze is not dog food simply because the antifreeze was ingested.

Again, I agree.

Saying it is stupid to deny that any plant that is ingested is not food, also seems to be a pretty dubious argument.

Every seed bearing plant has parts that can be ingested for our benefit in the right amounts.  Period.  See Genesis 1:29.  See the world around you.

Using a dubious corallary to defend your previous claim, also dubious, that "poison ivy is food," is what I was referring to when I said the lengths you go to to defend your arguments (this is just one example) seem a bit extreme; who knows what kind of argument you will come up with next, but we know you will think of something!

I'm extreme because I define the stuff we can eat for our benefit as "food."  
?
I'd say your's is the extreme position.

I should say -I do say- I don't think *you* are stupid, at all, even if you don't get quite what is being said to you a lot of the time and reply to something that wasn't quite the point; to the contrary, you are perhaps in ways too creatively intelligent in that I'm pretty sure you could find a way to defend the proposition that the sea is made of Coca Cola against all comers if *you wanted to. That wouldn't make the idea that the sea is made of Coca Cola more plausible to us, but we would all have jolly good fun having that discussion.

I don't think you are stupid either.  I, however, am extremely stupid.  I'm the stupidest man.

Lastly, you seem to miss my point in saying you seem to go to extreme lengths to defend your claims and brought up something else, and said *that* wasn't extreme. You said:
Quote from: acts420
"Every seed bearing plant has parts that can be ingested safely in certain amounts and which are in some sense beneficial when ingested.  I call those parts "food."  Mine is not an extreme position.
But I do think that also seems on the fringe. Though it wasn't what I was talking about, we can discuss that too.

If it is not "extreme" to suggest that all poisonous plants *are* really good for food (even if we don't *know* it yet aside from your personal take on the implications of ), what is it? Mainstream/normative?

Yes, it is normative.  If I can't believe the first chapter of the Bible without saying, "All seed bearing plants?!  That's too extreme; surely He can't mean all of them!!" then why should I bother continuing to read it?  No one person can tell you the name of every plant on earth without opening a massive book that they do not know 25% of.  We are learning more about our world every day.  

I'll put it this way then.  I don't know of any seed bearing plants that do not contain food.
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« Reply #128 on: May 01, 2012, 05:09:26 PM »

Another video for anyone interested.

Medical Cannabis and Its Impact on Human Health a Cannabis Documentary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Md2WNqqxTQ
"In this myth shattering, information packed documentary, learn from physicians and leading researchers about medicinal cannabis and its demonstrated effects on human health."  

Quotes from doctors in the video:  "Up until the 20th centruy, cannabis was probably the 2nd or 3rd most commonly used medicine in the world..."

"It was the misconception that use of marijuana led to debauchery and physical violence [popularized in the media] that led to its prohibition... It had been used medicinally as well as recreationally... It was then classified as a schedule one substance, a substance with no medically useful effects...." says Dr. Donald Tashkin, MD, Professor of Pulminary Medicine, UCLA.  

He then explains how he did one of the largest studies regarding cannabis use and lung disease and found that for every category of cannabis users, even heavy users, their use was associated with a *reduced* risk of lung disease.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 05:21:09 PM by acts420 » Logged

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« Reply #129 on: May 01, 2012, 05:48:08 PM »

Everyone should leave acts420 alone, for he cannot help speaking about the things he has seen and heard. 
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« Reply #130 on: May 01, 2012, 06:08:39 PM »

Frankly your claim that poison ivy is food seems pretty stupid (no disrespect intended), but more power to you.

Quote from: acts420
No disrespect taken.  And since we're being frank, to me it seems pretty stupid to say a plant that is ingested is not food.

You seem to be going to some pretty extreme lengths to defend your claim that poison plants, poison ivy, etc. are food.

Quote from: acts420
Every seed bearing plant has parts that can be ingested safely in certain amounts and which are in some sense beneficial when ingested.  I call those parts "food."  Mine is not an extreme position.

As questionable as your answer is, you're actually answering what I didn't ask. I'll try to spell it out more clearly; apologies if my question was confusing to you.  

I have answered your question, but obviously you think I did not.  I'll try to write it more clearly this time, and hopefully we will be able to communicate effectively.

You said it was "stupid" to say any plant which is ingested is not food

You used the word "stupid," and then I used your word.  But more importantly, I then further clarified what "food" is.  Specifically, I said, "Every seed bearing plant has parts that can be ingested safely in certain amounts and which are in some sense beneficial when ingested.  I call those parts 'food.'"  

Therefore, food is the amount of any plant's parts that can be eaten for our benefit.  If plants have parts that do not benefit us, then those parts are not food.  If it has amounts that do not benefit us, then those amounts are not food.  It is in this sense of 'proper amount' and 'proper parts' that all seed bearing plants were given to us for our food.

 
If ingested, a plant is food, end of story, Q. E. D. (your claim)
 

Wrong.  That is not my claim.  

We would have to conclude hemlock that killed Socrates' tea is therefore food because Socrates ingested it (given your claim)
 

No.  He ate hemlock in a way that killed him.  So I would say he did not use it as food.  I could say "not food," but more accurately I could say "food abuse."  People die from eating hamburger too, after all; it just takes longer.

The point is, even hemlock is beneficial in smaller amounts.  So even it can be used as "food" according to my definition.  Historically, hemlock was used as medicine in very small amounts.  Hemlock is an extremely unique plant because the line between toxic and beneficial for that plant is very fine.  So people had to be very careful.  It could easily turn into poison.  Nonetheless, it is food, just as God said it is, when used in the proper amounts.

And therefore that poison ivy, nightshade, hemlock, whatever, is all food -simply if someone ingests it.
 

Right.  They just have to be careful not to abuse the foods, not to have too much.

But if a dog ingests antifreeze and dies, antifreeze is not dog food simply because the antifreeze was ingested.

Again, I agree.

Saying it is stupid to deny that any plant that is ingested is not food, also seems to be a pretty dubious argument.

Every seed bearing plant has parts that can be ingested for our benefit in the right amounts.  Period.  See Genesis 1:29.  See the world around you.

Using a dubious corallary to defend your previous claim, also dubious, that "poison ivy is food," is what I was referring to when I said the lengths you go to to defend your arguments (this is just one example) seem a bit extreme; who knows what kind of argument you will come up with next, but we know you will think of something!

I'm extreme because I define the stuff we can eat for our benefit as "food."  
?
I'd say your's is the extreme position.

I should say -I do say- I don't think *you* are stupid, at all, even if you don't get quite what is being said to you a lot of the time and reply to something that wasn't quite the point; to the contrary, you are perhaps in ways too creatively intelligent in that I'm pretty sure you could find a way to defend the proposition that the sea is made of Coca Cola against all comers if *you wanted to. That wouldn't make the idea that the sea is made of Coca Cola more plausible to us, but we would all have jolly good fun having that discussion.

I don't think you are stupid either.  I, however, am extremely stupid.  I'm the stupidest man.

Lastly, you seem to miss my point in saying you seem to go to extreme lengths to defend your claims and brought up something else, and said *that* wasn't extreme. You said:
Quote from: acts420
"Every seed bearing plant has parts that can be ingested safely in certain amounts and which are in some sense beneficial when ingested.  I call those parts "food."  Mine is not an extreme position.
But I do think that also seems on the fringe. Though it wasn't what I was talking about, we can discuss that too.

If it is not "extreme" to suggest that all poisonous plants *are* really good for food (even if we don't *know* it yet aside from your personal take on the implications of ), what is it? Mainstream/normative?

Yes, it is normative.  If I can't believe the first chapter of the Bible without saying, "All seed bearing plants?!  That's too extreme; surely He can't mean all of them!!" then why should I bother continuing to read it?  No one person can tell you the name of every plant on earth without opening a massive book that they do not know 25% of.  We are learning more about our world every day.  

I'll put it this way then.  I don't know of any seed bearing plants that do not contain food.

What I posted in bold green text is a moderatorial directive, which is not to be questioned publicly. If you wish to question my directive further, please do so with me via private message. I will entertain no more questions of my instructions on this thread.
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« Reply #131 on: May 01, 2012, 11:13:12 PM »

Just ignore that pesky little verse in Genesis chapter 1 where God gives us "all seed bearing plants for food" See Genesis 1:29.  
You seem to assume usage of the Hebrew word כָּל in Hebrew literature entails a univeral/absolutistic usage of all. The literature itself often seems to belay that assumption. How then do you interpret the following passages? (random):

"Moreover, ALL the earth [וְכָל־הָאָ֙רֶץ֙] came to Egypt to Joseph to buy grain, because the famine was severe over ALL the earth [בְּכָל־  הָאָֽרֶץ]."

Would you claim that everyone on earth, e.g. from China, Australia, and the Americas came to Egypt to buy grain at this time?

"The end of ALL flesh is come before Me..." [קֵ֤ץ כָּל־בָּשָׂר֙ בָּ֣א לְפָנַ֔י] (Gen 6:13)

Should Noah or any other living creature have survived this pronouncement? Were Noah, his family, and the animals on the ark made of flesh?

If ingested, a plant is food
 
Wrong.  That is not my claim.  
Hmm... you said:

"...it seems pretty stupid to say a plant that is ingested is not food."

That sounds like you *were* suggesting a plant that is ingested is therefore "food."

In the original post you used it to defend your claim that poison ivy is food after it was pointed out that it was only ever ingested to convey immunity.

No one has ever used it as food.

You replied "it seems stupid to say a plant that is ingested is not food."

This results in absurdities, like having to say the hemlock Socrates ingested and which killed him was food because he ingested it.  

You also seem to be conflating medicinal use with food use. As if medicinal use of substance X "proves" it is therefore food.

But it doesn't. There are countless that have never been used for food. Hemlock has never been used for food and never will be.

Unless you wish to claim that anything which is ingested is therefore food again, which claim you now apparently deny you ever made.





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« Reply #132 on: May 02, 2012, 12:09:59 AM »

It would appear that the Hebrew word for food in question can be "[what is] consumed" as well.
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« Reply #133 on: May 02, 2012, 01:09:21 AM »

Thank you, PeterTheAleut, just to be specific, the things I would like to see backed up with scientific, peer-reviewed sources are:

Actually, my desire is to see that people don't have to die like my Father did, God rest his soul.  He got skin cancer; the same cancer I later saw people in the educational documentary "Run From the Cure" healed themselves of using cannabis oil extract.  My Father's doctors' treatments didn't work for him, much like my doctors' treatments for my plantar warts didn't work for me.  The cancer spread.   Eventually it had to be treated aggressively.  The doctor's treatments still didn't work, but they did make him very nauseous all the time.  He had trouble eating.  Cancer and the inability to eat are a very bad combo.  From what I've read and the patients I've spoken too, cannabis would have helped him greatly in his fight.

However, cannabis was made illegal in his State and Country about 70 years before he got cancer.  My hope is that someday children will see their fathers healed of this disease instead of dying a slow, dreadful, agonizing, and painful death over months and years from it.    

That cannabis can heal cancer.


Perhaps that's because you didn't have painful warts on your feet for years that doctors couldn't cure but which cannabis cured in two weeks.  Or perhaps that is because you don't have MS, and therefore you haven't seen first hand that eating or smoking cannabis drastically helps relieve the symptoms of that terrible disease.  It helps many with Parkinson's also.  Cannabis helps and even heals more diseases than we can count, from simple warts to the most devastating diseases known to man, and it does so very cheaply.  That is precisely why big pharma lobbied the government to lie about it and make it illegal 80 years ago.  

It was not fun at all to rub cannabis oil on my feet to heal the painful plantar warts.  It didn't get me high at all.  Also, eating it in the raw form does not get you high but has incredible medical benefits.  Eating it cooked (or smoking it) does get you high... but that's not all it does.  It helps with nausea and appetite stimulation when you're sick, and it relieves the symptoms of many diseases also.

Wake up.

1. That cannabis alleviates symptoms of multiple sclerosis
2. That cannabis alleviates Parkinson's disease.
3. That cannabis can heal warts.

Or is it my claim that I read a bunch of articles in pub med between two and four years ago that supported the conclusion that cannabis not only treats symptoms of cancer but that its cannabinoids have also actually been used to kill cancer cells?  If that's the "incredible" claim, then simply do a google search or pub med and you can read about it yourself.  It's true.

That cannabis actually kills cancer cells.


Cannabis has proven to be an effective treatment for many symptoms of many diseases, and has even been used to completely cure diseases.

Cancer is literally a cure for any disease at all.


Acts420 has been quite insistant that research backing up these claims exists, when questioned, so I don't think this is unreasonable. Of course, I will be content if he simply admits that no evidence for the above claims he's made exists beyond personal anecdote, the personal opinion of a former heart surgeon, the Bible or various blogs and popular news sites/forums etc. All I want to do is see him take the reasonable step of giving us the scientific sources he says exist or admit that they don't, for the above claims.
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« Reply #134 on: May 02, 2012, 01:25:11 AM »

This may be an issue of religious liberty, which as with all religious liberties must be exercised with prayer, knowledge, and caution. There are some potential positive medicinal and psychological effects of Cannabis, but there are also potential negative effects. To ingest Cannabis as a non-psychotropric agent is probably good for most people (boil it as a tea in water, without milk or oil, because the psychotropic effects of the THC are only activated when Marijuana is smoked or mixed with fat or oil.) For many people, the psychotropic effects of marijuana produce a calm, meditative state that is very conducive to prayer. But for others, the psychotropic effects of marijuana produce paranoia, confusion, disorentation, and a disruption of the consciousness that is antithetical to prayer and meditation. So, the "one size fits all" mentality is very dangerous.

The Orthodox view of creation is that created matter is good, and we should honor it as such. However, we must also acknowledge the consequences of the fall and realize that all of creation has been affected- not completely corrupted, but affected - by the fall. Therefore, we should not condemn any created thing as evil, but neither should we assume that everything "natural" is beneficial or safe. For example, rattlesnakes are not evil; they are a vital part of the ecosystem. But it would be foolish to assume that because they are created by God that we should not be fearful and cautious in approaching them.

OK, that's my brief two cents on the matter for now.


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« Reply #135 on: May 02, 2012, 02:11:59 AM »

Cancer is literally a cure for any disease at all.
Cancer a cure for disease? I think cancer IS a disease. Wink
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« Reply #136 on: May 02, 2012, 02:13:23 AM »

This may be an issue of religious liberty, which as with all religious liberties must be exercised with prayer, knowledge, and caution. There are some potential positive medicinal and psychological effects of Cannabis, but there are also potential negative effects. To ingest Cannabis as a non-psychotropric agent is probably good for most people (boil it as a tea in water, without milk or oil, because the psychotropic effects of the THC are only activated when Marijuana is smoked or mixed with fat or oil.) For many people, the psychotropic effects of marijuana produce a calm, meditative state that is very conducive to prayer. But for others, the psychotropic effects of marijuana produce paranoia, confusion, disorentation, and a disruption of the consciousness that is antithetical to prayer and meditation. So, the "one size fits all" mentality is very dangerous.

The Orthodox view of creation is that created matter is good, and we should honor it as such. However, we must also acknowledge the consequences of the fall and realize that all of creation has been affected- not completely corrupted, but affected - by the fall. Therefore, we should not condemn any created thing as evil, but neither should we assume that everything "natural" is beneficial or safe. For example, rattlesnakes are not evil; they are a vital part of the ecosystem. But it would be foolish to assume that because they are created by God that we should not be fearful and cautious in approaching them.

OK, that's my brief two cents on the matter for now.


Selam
Thank you, Gebre, for this very balanced view of the issue.
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« Reply #137 on: May 02, 2012, 07:51:20 AM »

Dear xariskai, the point of my original post was that cannabis is good for human beings in moderation.  "For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected..." (1 Timothy 4).  That is the point behind my citation of Genesis 1:29.  Everything God made has a good and beneficial use.  Cannabis is no exception.

If you don't want to say something consumed as medicine is "food," then don't.  I call it food.  I don't care what you call it.  I don't care if you believe Genesis 1:29 literally or if you don't.  I believe it, but I'm not going to argue with you about "food" endlessly.  That has virtually nothing to do with the point of this thread.

The point is this:  Cannabis is good for human beings in moderation.  That has been shown to me through my experience with the plant, and many others have had similar experiences.  Many doctors also agree.  Everything God created is good in some form or fashion, and nothing is to be rejected.  The laws of the U.S. Federal government that prohibit all use, even moderate and medical use of cannabis, are anti-Christian.
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« Reply #138 on: May 02, 2012, 07:55:07 AM »

Can we smoke poison ivy?
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« Reply #139 on: May 02, 2012, 08:37:46 AM »

Thank you, PeterTheAleut, just to be specific, the things I would like to see backed up with scientific, peer-reviewed sources are:

Actually, my desire is to see that people don't have to die like my Father did, God rest his soul.  He got skin cancer; the same cancer I later saw people in the educational documentary "Run From the Cure" healed themselves of using cannabis oil extract.  My Father's doctors' treatments didn't work for him, much like my doctors' treatments for my plantar warts didn't work for me.  The cancer spread.   Eventually it had to be treated aggressively.  The doctor's treatments still didn't work, but they did make him very nauseous all the time.  He had trouble eating.  Cancer and the inability to eat are a very bad combo.  From what I've read and the patients I've spoken too, cannabis would have helped him greatly in his fight.

However, cannabis was made illegal in his State and Country about 70 years before he got cancer.  My hope is that someday children will see their fathers healed of this disease instead of dying a slow, dreadful, agonizing, and painful death over months and years from it.    

That cannabis can heal cancer.

As you've just shown, all I said was that "I saw people in the educational documentary Run From the Cure healed themselves using cannabis oil extract."  I told you what I saw in a documentary, and I said that after watching it I wished my late Father, God rest his soul, had cannabis as an option for both his skin cancer and the nausea that chemotherapy caused.  Just because I told you what I saw in a documentary and how it related to my Father, that doesn't make me responsible for answering all your curiosities about cannabis and science.

Nonetheless, I've been more than helpful in these regards even though I owe you nothing.  I've told you where you can perhaps find such articles.  I also already provided you with a peer-reviewed article about cannabis compounds being used against cancer cells in this thread.  I didn't have to do either of those things.  I'm under no obligation to do research for you simply because I told you what I saw in a documentary.  

I've been more than helpful, and you've been less than thankful.  

Perhaps that's because you didn't have painful warts on your feet for years that doctors couldn't cure but which cannabis cured in two weeks.  Or perhaps that is because you don't have MS, and therefore you haven't seen first hand that eating or smoking cannabis drastically helps relieve the symptoms of that terrible disease.  It helps many with Parkinson's also.  Cannabis helps and even heals more diseases than we can count, from simple warts to the most devastating diseases known to man, and it does so very cheaply.  That is precisely why big pharma lobbied the government to lie about it and make it illegal 80 years ago.  

It was not fun at all to rub cannabis oil on my feet to heal the painful plantar warts.  It didn't get me high at all.  Also, eating it in the raw form does not get you high but has incredible medical benefits.  Eating it cooked (or smoking it) does get you high... but that's not all it does.  It helps with nausea and appetite stimulation when you're sick, and it relieves the symptoms of many diseases also.

Wake up.

1. That cannabis alleviates symptoms of multiple sclerosis
2. That cannabis alleviates Parkinson's disease.
3. That cannabis can heal warts.

I said cannabis can heal warts because it healed mine.  That's all.   I tried cannabis oil extract on my plantar warts because I read a peer-reviewed article about cannabis compounds being used to fight cancer cells.  I've already provided you with one such article, and I've told you where you can do further research if you want.  I knew that HPV (warts) is closely related to cancer, I had read the article, and so I tried it on my warts.  It cured them.  That's all I'm saying.  I'm not saying cannabis is a cure all for all warts in existence, and I've never made any such claim.  I've said it healed *my* warts.  

As far as the other diseases, I already provided links to the videos I had seen where symptoms of those diseases are alleviated after patients consume cannabis.  Those videos are what I was referring to when I said cannabis can be used against the symptoms of those diseases.   I provided the links to the videos, first-hand accounts, so you can witness them yourself.  I also provided another peer-reviewed journal article about how cannabis should be made available for medical patients for a variety of diseases.   All of that is a perfectly reasonable starting point for the further research you are so vocally interested in.  If you want to see more research done, then do it.

Or is it my claim that I read a bunch of articles in pub med between two and four years ago that supported the conclusion that cannabis not only treats symptoms of cancer but that its cannabinoids have also actually been used to kill cancer cells?  If that's the "incredible" claim, then simply do a google search or pub med and you can read about it yourself.  It's true.

That cannabis actually kills cancer cells.

I also already provided you with a peer-reviewed, scientific article about cannabis compounds being used effectively against cancer cells in this thread.

Acts420 has been quite insistant that research backing up these claims exists, when questioned, so I don't think this is unreasonable. Of course, I will be content if he simply admits that no evidence for the above claims he's made exists beyond personal anecdote, the personal opinion of a former heart surgeon, the Bible or various blogs and popular news sites/forums etc. All I want to do is see him take the reasonable step of giving us the scientific sources he says exist or admit that they don't, for the above claims.

I have simply related my healing experiences with medical cannabis and the healing experiences of others.  I've shown you where to view their testimony on video and witness their symptom relief and healing experiences.  I have provided you with two peer-reviewed journal articles regarding cannabis' use against disease.  I have provided a link to a page with more.  I have given my own testimony in dealing with my own disease.  I have provided a documentary you can watch where others testify about their diseases.  I have also provided you with numerous licensed medical doctors' testimony by way of two video links.  

I have fed you more than enough information about cannabis' medical uses, and you have ignored most if it even while asking the moderators to make me feed you more.  "A sluggard buries his hand in the dish; he will not even bring it back to his mouth." (Proverbs 19:24)  If you want to see more research about cannabis, then do your own research.  You have all the resources you need to feed yourself now.
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« Reply #140 on: May 02, 2012, 09:09:05 AM »

Can we smoke poison ivy?

Count me out.
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« Reply #141 on: May 02, 2012, 04:33:49 PM »

Thank you, PeterTheAleut, just to be specific, the things I would like to see backed up with scientific, peer-reviewed sources are:

Actually, my desire is to see that people don't have to die like my Father did, God rest his soul.  He got skin cancer; the same cancer I later saw people in the educational documentary "Run From the Cure" healed themselves of using cannabis oil extract.  My Father's doctors' treatments didn't work for him, much like my doctors' treatments for my plantar warts didn't work for me.  The cancer spread.   Eventually it had to be treated aggressively.  The doctor's treatments still didn't work, but they did make him very nauseous all the time.  He had trouble eating.  Cancer and the inability to eat are a very bad combo.  From what I've read and the patients I've spoken too, cannabis would have helped him greatly in his fight.

However, cannabis was made illegal in his State and Country about 70 years before he got cancer.  My hope is that someday children will see their fathers healed of this disease instead of dying a slow, dreadful, agonizing, and painful death over months and years from it.    

That cannabis can heal cancer.

As you've just shown, all I said was that "I saw people in the educational documentary Run From the Cure healed themselves using cannabis oil extract."  I told you what I saw in a documentary, and I said that after watching it I wished my late Father, God rest his soul, had cannabis as an option for both his skin cancer and the nausea that chemotherapy caused.  Just because I told you what I saw in a documentary and how it related to my Father, that doesn't make me responsible for answering all your curiosities about cannabis and science.

Nonetheless, I've been more than helpful in these regards even though I owe you nothing.  I've told you where you can perhaps find such articles.  I also already provided you with a peer-reviewed article about cannabis compounds being used against cancer cells in this thread.  I didn't have to do either of those things.  I'm under no obligation to do research for you simply because I told you what I saw in a documentary.  

I've been more than helpful, and you've been less than thankful.  

Perhaps that's because you didn't have painful warts on your feet for years that doctors couldn't cure but which cannabis cured in two weeks.  Or perhaps that is because you don't have MS, and therefore you haven't seen first hand that eating or smoking cannabis drastically helps relieve the symptoms of that terrible disease.  It helps many with Parkinson's also.  Cannabis helps and even heals more diseases than we can count, from simple warts to the most devastating diseases known to man, and it does so very cheaply.  That is precisely why big pharma lobbied the government to lie about it and make it illegal 80 years ago.  

It was not fun at all to rub cannabis oil on my feet to heal the painful plantar warts.  It didn't get me high at all.  Also, eating it in the raw form does not get you high but has incredible medical benefits.  Eating it cooked (or smoking it) does get you high... but that's not all it does.  It helps with nausea and appetite stimulation when you're sick, and it relieves the symptoms of many diseases also.

Wake up.

1. That cannabis alleviates symptoms of multiple sclerosis
2. That cannabis alleviates Parkinson's disease.
3. That cannabis can heal warts.

I said cannabis can heal warts because it healed mine.  That's all.   I tried cannabis oil extract on my plantar warts because I read a peer-reviewed article about cannabis compounds being used to fight cancer cells.  I've already provided you with one such article, and I've told you where you can do further research if you want.  I knew that HPV (warts) is closely related to cancer, I had read the article, and so I tried it on my warts.  It cured them.  That's all I'm saying.  I'm not saying cannabis is a cure all for all warts in existence, and I've never made any such claim.  I've said it healed *my* warts.  

As far as the other diseases, I already provided links to the videos I had seen where symptoms of those diseases are alleviated after patients consume cannabis.  Those videos are what I was referring to when I said cannabis can be used against the symptoms of those diseases.   I provided the links to the videos, first-hand accounts, so you can witness them yourself.  I also provided another peer-reviewed journal article about how cannabis should be made available for medical patients for a variety of diseases.   All of that is a perfectly reasonable starting point for the further research you are so vocally interested in.  If you want to see more research done, then do it.

Or is it my claim that I read a bunch of articles in pub med between two and four years ago that supported the conclusion that cannabis not only treats symptoms of cancer but that its cannabinoids have also actually been used to kill cancer cells?  If that's the "incredible" claim, then simply do a google search or pub med and you can read about it yourself.  It's true.

That cannabis actually kills cancer cells.

I also already provided you with a peer-reviewed, scientific article about cannabis compounds being used effectively against cancer cells in this thread.

Acts420 has been quite insistant that research backing up these claims exists, when questioned, so I don't think this is unreasonable. Of course, I will be content if he simply admits that no evidence for the above claims he's made exists beyond personal anecdote, the personal opinion of a former heart surgeon, the Bible or various blogs and popular news sites/forums etc. All I want to do is see him take the reasonable step of giving us the scientific sources he says exist or admit that they don't, for the above claims.

I have simply related my healing experiences with medical cannabis and the healing experiences of others.  I've shown you where to view their testimony on video and witness their symptom relief and healing experiences.  I have provided you with two peer-reviewed journal articles regarding cannabis' use against disease.  I have provided a link to a page with more.  I have given my own testimony in dealing with my own disease.  I have provided a documentary you can watch where others testify about their diseases.  I have also provided you with numerous licensed medical doctors' testimony by way of two video links.  

I have fed you more than enough information about cannabis' medical uses, and you have ignored most if it even while asking the moderators to make me feed you more.  "A sluggard buries his hand in the dish; he will not even bring it back to his mouth." (Proverbs 19:24)  If you want to see more research about cannabis, then do your own research.  You have all the resources you need to feed yourself now.
laconicstudent's request for sources now has my formal moderatorial backing. Therefore, to argue with him is to argue with me. Rather than continue your dispute with us, don't you think it better to assess our request and decide to either fulfill it within the 48 hours you now have left to you or willingly accept the formal discipline you will receive for your continued refusal to act?

I post this publicly to show my continued support of laconicstudent's inquiry into your sources. If you wish to dispute my directive or this reminder, please do so only via private message.
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« Reply #142 on: May 02, 2012, 06:41:57 PM »

Can we smoke poison ivy?

Running up against it is bad enough. Trust me, I found that out on a 9th grade field trip.  Tongue
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« Reply #143 on: May 02, 2012, 06:43:32 PM »

Can we smoke poison ivy?

Running up against it is bad enough. Trust me, I found that out on a 9th grade field trip.  Tongue

But everything is good. If everything is good, then how can this be bad?
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« Reply #144 on: May 02, 2012, 06:45:07 PM »

Can we smoke poison ivy?

Running up against it is bad enough. Trust me, I found that out on a 9th grade field trip.  Tongue

But everything is good. If everything is good, then how can this be bad?

Uh, 'cause it itches?  Embarrassed
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« Reply #145 on: May 02, 2012, 06:47:52 PM »

But what if the itching wasn't from the poison ivy (falsely so called)? What if it was a reaction of your body, revolting not against the plant but against your aversion to the plant? What if it was a psychsomatic response to the false anxiety you were cultivating, based on the myth that there are bad plants out there? More research in this area is called for...
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« Reply #146 on: May 02, 2012, 06:50:26 PM »

But what if the itching wasn't from the poison ivy (falsely so called)? What if it was a reaction of your body, revolting not against the plant but against your aversion to the plant? What if it was a psychsomatic response to the false anxiety you were cultivating, based on the myth that there are bad plants out there? More research in this area is called for...

Not with me. Someone else will have to volunteer for the project.
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« Reply #147 on: May 02, 2012, 06:59:08 PM »

Can we smoke poison ivy?

Running up against it is bad enough. Trust me, I found that out on a 9th grade field trip.  Tongue

But everything is good. If everything is good, then how can this be bad?

Uh, 'cause it itches?  Embarrassed

But it's good!
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« Reply #148 on: May 02, 2012, 07:00:13 PM »

Itching is not good. Poison ivy may have been made for bugs to eat. I hope it wasn't made strictly to torture kids in biology class.  Undecided
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« Reply #149 on: May 02, 2012, 07:13:52 PM »

LOL, Biro...
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« Reply #150 on: May 02, 2012, 07:54:10 PM »

Can we smoke poison ivy?

Running up against it is bad enough. Trust me, I found that out on a 9th grade field trip.  Tongue

But everything is good. If everything is good, then how can this be bad?

Uh, 'cause it itches?  Embarrassed

But it's good!

Not as good as cannaibs. Mmmmmmm. Cannaibs.

In Christ,
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« Reply #151 on: May 03, 2012, 04:57:31 PM »

Dear laconicstudent,

Anyone reading my post can plainly see what I claimed and how I've already backed up my claims.

I claimed that Dr. David Allen (heart surgeon) says, "Eat a bud a day, it will keep the strokes away."  I backed that up the only way possible: I posted the video of the Dr. saying it.  My claim there was about another person's testimony, and I backed my claim up the only way possible:  by showing his testimony.  See page 1, line one of this thread where I posted the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_x9lK1meqog

I claimed, "I was healed of a disease on my foot that doctors could not cure for years after I applied cannabis oil to my foot for a couple weeks."  To back it up, I testified personally about my experience in using cannabis oil to heal my foot.  That is all I can do.  No more "poof" of my personal experience is possible unless you are going to require me to publicly post my former doctors' names and phone numbers in order to allow me to continue speaking freely here.

I claimed that "if you look around, you'll find people that even claim it has healed some forms of cancer."  I backed that up the only way possible: I cited the documentary where I heard the patients themselves testify about it curing their cancers (Run From the Cure, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0psJhQHk_GI ).  Again, my claim was about others' testimony.  And so I pointed you to their testimony.  That is all I can do.

I backed up every claim I made.  Nonetheless, when requested, I additionally cited a peer-reviewed, scientific study about cannabis being used against cancer.  I did this on page 3 of the thread.  The study from Complutense University and Autonoma University used cannabinoids from cannabis to kill glioma cells, destroying some of the cancers in the test animals.  It was published in Volume 119, Issue 5 (May 1, 2009) J Clin Invest. 2009;119(5):1359–1372. doi:10.1172/JCI37948.  Copyright © 2009, American Society for Clinical Investigation.

Need more?  Then see the research done at Harvard University by Anju Preet, Ramesh Ganju and Jerome Groopman in 2007.  It was presented at the 98th American Association of Cancer Research (AACR) Annual Meeting.  They discovered that THC, one of the most active ingredients in medical marijuana, cuts tumor growth in common lung cancer in half and significantly reduces the ability of the cancer to spread.  Cannabis' effectiveness against cancer is so well known in the medical field that they say in the abstract of the research paper, "Cannabis sativa, possess anti-tumor properties against various types of cancers."  Then they report the findings from their specific research which focused on lung cancer specifically.  "A significant reduction (~50%) in tumor weight and volume were observed in THC treated animals compared to the vehicle treated animals."  See the abstract at:  http://www.aacrmeetingabstracts.org/cgi/content/meeting_abstract/2007/1_Annual_Meeting/4749?maxtoshow=&hits=80&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=cannabinoid&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=1760&resourcetype=HWCIT

I also claimed cannabis can "drastically help relieve the symptoms of that terrible disease [MS]."  I then posted a video of a man smoking it, experiencing visible relief from MS, and then testifying about its effectiveness.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEOoa6Q4Bds  I also posted more videos of several other men with the disease describing similar help from cannabis (page 2 of this thread).  Then, after being asked, I also posted a medical, peer-reviewed journal article that mentions medical relief from cannabis in regards to MS and many other diseases. "Analysis of the medical use of marijuana and its societal implications"; Taylor HG; Journal of the American Pharmaceutical Association (Washington,D.C.). 1998 Mar-Apr;38(2):220-7.  

If you need yet another "scientific article" to allow me to speak freely here, then see Growing's 1998, peer-reviewed journal article, "Therapeutic use of cannabis: clarifying the debate. Drug and Alcohol Review, 17: 445-452."  There she cites studies showing that "cannabinoids have been shown in animal models to measurably lessen MS symptoms and may also halt the progression of the disease."  Or see also:  Baker D et al (2000). Cannabinoids control spasticity and tremor in a multiple sclerosis model.  Nature, 404: 84-87.  That study also notes the relief cannabis affords MS patients.

Or see Zajicek J et al (2003). Cannabinoids for treatment of spasticity and other symptoms related to multiple sclerosis (CAMS study): multicentre randomised placebo-controlled trial. Lancet, Nov 8;362(9395): 1517-26.  There it is claimed that "current data supporting the benefit of cannabinoid treatment of spasticity in MS is now as strong as for any available pharmaceutical agent."

Anyone who is saying I have claimed that cannabis cures all disease or all cancers is lying about me.  That "anyone" would be you. You said of me, "Wow, look at all those grandiose claims of cannabis being the universal panacea without a single scientific source."  I never made that claim. So stop spreading lies, and stop convincing the moderators to take action against me because of your lies.  Why are you trying so hard to silence me, Liar?

I have backed up my claims constantly here.  But regardless of all the information I provide, the obnoxious demand for impossible "proof" of false claims (and threat of discipline against me if I don't fulfill it) remains.  I have cited peer-reviewed study after peer-reviewed study, and the your deceitful "request" (which you manged to turn into a demand under threat of discipline by the moderators) seems now to be that I prove cannabis cures cancer with a scientific journal article.  I never claimed that it cures all cancer.   It is impossible for me to fulfill this request; there is no such thing as a peer-reviewed scientific article showing that cannabis can cure all cancer.  The most that can be shown is that cannabis can be used to kill cancer cells and inhibit tumor growth.  That is the most that any medicine known to man can do.  There is no such thing as a total, never-fail cure for cancer.  I have never claimed there is.  

I have done everything feasible to back up the claims I actually made.  I understand that my views about cannabis (and its relationship to kanehbosm and the holy anointing oil) make me unpopular with many in this forum.  I understand that very possibly offends some of your deeply held beliefs as an orthodox christian.  However, my intent is not to offend but rather to speak what I believe to be true in a conversation with others who love the Truth.  Disagreeing with me theologically is not a reason to put words in my mouth and then force me (by using Peter) to either "back them up" or face formal discipline.

All I'm asking the both of you is that you let me speak freely about my experiences here, for Christ's sake.  It is a plant that God made.  It is good medicine, and all I'm doing is speaking about it.  

You should be ashamed of yourself.

In Christ,
Jason (acts420)


1. To call someone a liar is a personal attack that we do not permit on this forum. You were within your rights to accuse laconicstudent of lying, and if you had gone no further than that, you would have not run afoul of any rules. However, when you took that next step and called him a liar, you crossed the line into conduct forbidden on this forum.
2. laconicstudent did not use me to force you to "put up or shut up". I agreed with him and chose to back him up after conducting a careful review of his complaint and of your conduct on this thread and after consulting with my fellow moderators over the course of several days. The decision to back him up was mine. For you to accuse laconicstudent of using me is an allegation that the moderators can be used, which is a defamation of the character of those who serve on the moderator team.
3. You're continuing to display the same hostility that drove me to lock this thread before, the same hostility that prompted my general warning to all several posts ago.

Therefore, you are receiving this warning that you need to stop this now. Continue spewing this venom and you will be placed on post moderation, a status where every one of your posts will need to be reviewed by a moderator before it can appear on the forum. Considering the magnitude of your antagonism at the moment, I think a long warning of 40 days should be sufficient to drive home the point that this behavior has to stop.

If you wish to dispute this warning as unfair, please take up your argument with me via private message. (This warning has nothing to do with my request for outside corroboration of your claims regarding the medicinal benefits of cannabis use, which, ironically, I am rethinking after reading the references you cited in this post.)

- PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #152 on: May 04, 2012, 02:26:18 PM »

This may be an issue of religious liberty, which as with all religious liberties must be exercised with prayer, knowledge, and caution. There are some potential positive medicinal and psychological effects of Cannabis, but there are also potential negative effects. To ingest Cannabis as a non-psychotropric agent is probably good for most people (boil it as a tea in water, without milk or oil, because the psychotropic effects of the THC are only activated when Marijuana is smoked or mixed with fat or oil.) For many people, the psychotropic effects of marijuana produce a calm, meditative state that is very conducive to prayer. But for others, the psychotropic effects of marijuana produce paranoia, confusion, disorentation, and a disruption of the consciousness that is antithetical to prayer and meditation. So, the "one size fits all" mentality is very dangerous.

The Orthodox view of creation is that created matter is good, and we should honor it as such. However, we must also acknowledge the consequences of the fall and realize that all of creation has been affected- not completely corrupted, but affected - by the fall. Therefore, we should not condemn any created thing as evil, but neither should we assume that everything "natural" is beneficial or safe. For example, rattlesnakes are not evil; they are a vital part of the ecosystem. But it would be foolish to assume that because they are created by God that we should not be fearful and cautious in approaching them.

OK, that's my brief two cents on the matter for now.


Selam

Thank you for the very wise comment, and for your truthful and honest behavior in this thread.  It is unfortunately rare to see people with integrity speaking and acting on this website.  But then again, it has been this way in the people of God since Moses.  Gems like you are rare, but they are here.  Thanks for shining Christ's light brilliantly.  Wolves may be abundant among the sheep.  What prophet wasn't persecuted?  But let God be true and every man a liar.

If more people like you believed this could be a matter of religious freedom, then perhaps I could stand a chance at winning the civil lawsuit I'm eventually going to bring against the Federal government.  Rastafarians can legally use cannabis according to the Federal government.  They won this right on Constitutional grounds, specifically freedom of religion.  They proved their *sincere* religious beliefs required them to use cannabis.  If Rastafarians can legally use cannabis, those who have descended from the oriental orthodox in some form, even if they are not canonical, then I should be able to use cannabis too.  But I'm not.  I have to violate the law to practice my religion.

Unfortunately, too many orthodox Christians don't know (and don't even care) what is in the anointing oil.  Even if kanehbosm (cannabis) is in it, apparently it is impossible for me to find that information out.  So I'm going to have a hard time proving cannabis is part of my established religion.  But I'm going to try anyway, regardless of the modern Church's oil, because I believe ultimately the Way is between each man and his God.  Only after that is the Way between each man and his Church.

We'll see whether or not I end up in prison.  If the judges judge like the moderators moderate, then I very possibly will end up being treated like a criminal for trying to anoint my loved ones' diseases with the oil that healed mine in Christ.
Your warning for 40 days has been increased to 60 days because you broke the rule on criticizing moderators in the section highlighted in blue and bold. If you do not agree with this action, please feel free to appeal to Father George. Second Chance
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« Reply #153 on: May 04, 2012, 02:39:47 PM »

Quote from: Jesus, the Anointed One, the Christ, the Messiah, the Son of God, the Son of Mary
You hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean.  In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.... You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!

 - Jesus, the Anointed One, the Christ, the Messiah, the Son of God, the Son of Mary

Amen.
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« Reply #154 on: May 04, 2012, 03:05:18 PM »

Quote from: The Holy and Honorable Saint Stephen
Has not God's hand made all these things?  You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit! Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute?

Amen.
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« Reply #155 on: May 04, 2012, 07:04:36 PM »

This may be an issue of religious liberty, which as with all religious liberties must be exercised with prayer, knowledge, and caution. There are some potential positive medicinal and psychological effects of Cannabis, but there are also potential negative effects. To ingest Cannabis as a non-psychotropric agent is probably good for most people (boil it as a tea in water, without milk or oil, because the psychotropic effects of the THC are only activated when Marijuana is smoked or mixed with fat or oil.) For many people, the psychotropic effects of marijuana produce a calm, meditative state that is very conducive to prayer. But for others, the psychotropic effects of marijuana produce paranoia, confusion, disorentation, and a disruption of the consciousness that is antithetical to prayer and meditation. So, the "one size fits all" mentality is very dangerous.

The Orthodox view of creation is that created matter is good, and we should honor it as such. However, we must also acknowledge the consequences of the fall and realize that all of creation has been affected- not completely corrupted, but affected - by the fall. Therefore, we should not condemn any created thing as evil, but neither should we assume that everything "natural" is beneficial or safe. For example, rattlesnakes are not evil; they are a vital part of the ecosystem. But it would be foolish to assume that because they are created by God that we should not be fearful and cautious in approaching them.

OK, that's my brief two cents on the matter for now.


Selam

Thank you for the very wise comment, and for your truthful and honest behavior in this thread.  It is unfortunately rare to see people with integrity speaking and acting on this website.  But then again, it has been this way in the people of God since Moses.  Gems like you are rare, but they are here.  Thanks for shining Christ's light brilliantly.  Wolves may be abundant among the sheep.  What prophet wasn't persecuted?  But let God be true and every man a liar.

If more people like you believed this could be a matter of religious freedom, then perhaps I could stand a chance at winning the civil lawsuit I'm eventually going to bring against the Federal government....  I have to violate the law to practice my religion... We'll see whether or not I end up in prison.  If the judges judge like the moderators moderate, then I very possibly will end up being treated like a criminal for trying to anoint my loved ones' diseases with the oil that healed mine in Christ.
Your warning for 40 days has been increased to 60 days because you broke the rule on criticizing moderators in the section highlighted in blue and bold. If you do not agree with this action, please feel free to appeal to Father George. Second Chance

Dear Second Chance, Christ is Risen!  Thank you for your moderation.

Whether you are mistaken in disciplining me for what has transpired is up to God.  I have my opinion, but ultimately, as Paul said, "I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself.  My conscience is clear."  

Federal judges and all men sometimes make mistakes. But "the one whose walk is blameless, who does what is righteous, who speaks the truth from their heart... Whoever does these things will never be shaken."  "I am not guilty of turning from my God. All his laws are before me; I have not turned away from his decrees.  I have been blameless before him and have kept myself from sin."   - excerpts from Psalm 15

"Though you probe my heart, oh God, though you examine me at night and test me, you will find that I have planned no evil; my mouth has not transgressed.... Keep me as the apple of your eye; hide me in the shadow of your wings from the wicked who are out to destroy me... Their mouths speak with arrogance...  They have tracked me down, they now surround me, with eyes alert, to throw me to the ground. They are like a lion hungry for prey, like a fierce lion crouching in cover.  As for me, I will be vindicated and will see your face; when I awake, I will be satisfied with seeing your likeness."   - excerpts from Psalms 17,18

"I do not sit with the these deceitful people, nor do I associate with these hypocrites. I wash my hands in innocence, and go about your altar, Lord, proclaiming aloud your praise and telling of all your wonderful deeds.  My feet stand on level ground; in the great congregation I will praise the Lord."  - excerpts from Psalm 26

In Christ,
Jason (acts420)
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« Reply #156 on: May 04, 2012, 07:08:28 PM »

Quote
Dear Second Chance, Christ is Risen!  Thank you for your moderation.

Whether you are mistaken in disciplining me for what has transpired is up to God.  I have my opinion, but ultimately, as Paul said, "I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself.  My conscience is clear."  

Federal judges and all men sometimes make mistakes. But "the one whose walk is blameless, who does what is righteous, who speaks the truth from their heart... Whoever does these things will never be shaken."  "I am not guilty of turning from my God. All his laws are before me; I have not turned away from his decrees.  I have been blameless before him and have kept myself from sin."   - excerpts from Psalm 15

"Though you probe my heart, oh God, though you examine me at night and test me, you will find that I have planned no evil; my mouth has not transgressed.... Keep me as the apple of your eye; hide me in the shadow of your wings from the wicked who are out to destroy me... Their mouths speak with arrogance...  They have tracked me down, they now surround me, with eyes alert, to throw me to the ground. They are like a lion hungry for prey, like a fierce lion crouching in cover.  As for me, I will be vindicated and will see your face; when I awake, I will be satisfied with seeing your likeness."   - excerpts from Psalms 17,18

"I do not sit with the these deceitful people, nor do I associate with these hypocrites. I wash my hands in innocence, and go about your altar, Lord, proclaiming aloud your praise and telling of all your wonderful deeds.  My feet stand on level ground; in the great congregation I will praise the Lord."  - excerpts from Psalm 26

In Christ,
Jason (acts420)

Your increasingly sanctimonious posts are becoming tiresome. Have you voted "yes" on the "Are you righteous" poll thread yet?
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« Reply #157 on: May 04, 2012, 07:13:39 PM »

Your increasingly sanctimonious posts are becoming tiresome. Have you voted "yes" on the "am I righteous" poll thread yet?

Dear LBK, Christ is Risen!

I'm sorry you are getting tired.  Is it nap time?   No one is forcing you to read the words of Scripture I have posted that you found tiresome.  The words about walking in blamelessness, with a clean conscience, were from Paul and David, breathed by the Holy Spirit.
 
No, I didn't waste my time voting.  I simply acknowledge that my life as a whole makes me the chief among sinners, and I must keep a clean conscience before God as I walk onward. "You, oh God, have delivered me from death and my feet from stumbling, that I may walk before God in the light of life." (Psalm 56).  "They spread a net for my feet— I was bowed down in distress. They dug a pit in my path— but they have fallen into it themselves." (Psalm 57)

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« Reply #158 on: May 04, 2012, 07:18:21 PM »

Acts, quit the passive-aggressive silliness, before someone makes you go sit in the corner.

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« Reply #159 on: May 04, 2012, 07:25:35 PM »

Acts, quit the passive-aggressive silliness, before someone makes you go sit in the corner.

Biro, Christ is Risen!  It's always good to hear from you.  I think what you mean to say is, "Acts, stop citing Scripture."  But I will not.  When times get tough, what I turn to is the Word of God, and He picks me up.

"I am in the midst of lions;  I am forced to dwell among ravenous beasts— men whose teeth are spears and arrows, whose tongues are sharp swords. Be exalted, O God, above the heavens; let your glory be over all the earth. They spread a net for my feet... They dug a pit in my path—  but they have fallen into it themselves. My heart, O God, is steadfast, my heart is steadfast;  I will sing and make music to my God."  (from Psalm 57)
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« Reply #160 on: May 04, 2012, 07:27:51 PM »

Quote from: acts420

Biro, Christ is Risen!  It's always good to hear from you.  I think what you mean to say is, "Acts, stop citing Scripture."  But I will not.  When times get tough, what I turn to is the Word of God, and He picks me up.

Wow, you are really fond of yourself. That's rich.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #161 on: May 04, 2012, 07:28:14 PM »

Acts, quit the passive-aggressive silliness, before someone makes you go sit in the corner.

I think what you mean to say is, "Acts, stop citing Scripture."

"I am in the midst of lions;  I am forced to dwell among ravenous beasts— men whose teeth are spears and arrows, whose tongues are sharp swords. Be exalted, O God, above the heavens; let your glory be over all the earth. They spread a net for my feet... They dug a pit in my path—  but they have fallen into it themselves. My heart, O God, is steadfast, my heart is steadfast;  I will sing and make music to my God."  (from Psalm 57)

Text without context is pretext. Lookit me! Lookit me! Ain't I sooo good, and everyone else is a schmuck! is what you're saying. Just like the Publican. Grow up.
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« Reply #162 on: May 04, 2012, 07:34:07 PM »


"I am in the midst of lions;  I am forced to dwell among ravenous beasts— men whose teeth are spears and arrows, whose tongues are sharp swords. Be exalted, O God, above the heavens; let your glory be over all the earth. They spread a net for my feet... They dug a pit in my path—  but they have fallen into it themselves. My heart, O God, is steadfast, my heart is steadfast;  I will sing and make music to my God."  (from Psalm 57)

... Lookit me! Lookit me! Ain't I sooo good, and everyone else is a schmuck! is what you're saying. Just like the Publican. Grow up.

You probably should not talk about David that way.  He was a man after God's own heart, and God breathed the words that He placed in Scripture through David (and not through you).  You almost sound like you don't think you need to grow up.  But you do.  Desperately.  We all need to grow up continually.
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« Reply #163 on: May 04, 2012, 07:42:41 PM »

"NVM" - Severian
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« Reply #164 on: May 04, 2012, 08:00:40 PM »

I warned you on how to do this . . . without getting modded.

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« Reply #165 on: May 04, 2012, 08:02:06 PM »


"I am in the midst of lions;  I am forced to dwell among ravenous beasts— men whose teeth are spears and arrows, whose tongues are sharp swords. Be exalted, O God, above the heavens; let your glory be over all the earth. They spread a net for my feet... They dug a pit in my path—  but they have fallen into it themselves. My heart, O God, is steadfast, my heart is steadfast;  I will sing and make music to my God."  (from Psalm 57)

... Lookit me! Lookit me! Ain't I sooo good, and everyone else is a schmuck! is what you're saying. Just like the Publican. Grow up.

You probably should not talk about David that way.  He was a man after God's own heart, and God breathed the words that He placed in Scripture through David (and not through you).  You almost sound like you don't think you need to grow up.  But you do.  Desperately.  We all need to grow up continually.

Conflating yourself with the Scriptures again?

Clearly he was talking about your use of the Scriptures. Then again, your tactic throughout has been to immediately pawn off blame on everyone else, so nobody should be surprised anymore.
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« Reply #166 on: May 04, 2012, 08:28:32 PM »

I warned you on how to do this . . . without getting modded.

And I appreciate it.  But in my conscience it is more important to speak the truth boldly and expose the lies and hypocrisy so that it becomes plain to those with eyes that see and ears that hear.  Getting modded for speaking what I believe to be true is my gain (even if they think it's my loss).
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« Reply #167 on: May 05, 2012, 06:36:44 AM »

If Rastafarians can legally use cannabis, those who have descended from the oriental orthodox in some form, even if they are not canonical, then I should be able to use cannabis too.  But I'm not. 

Rastafarianism's creators are some Protestant LARPers that had no clue about the Oriental Orthodoxy.

Quote
I have to violate the law to practice my religion.

IDK what your religion is but in the Eastern Orthodox Christianity we do not smoke grass for ritual purposes (although some do it for pleasure).
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« Reply #168 on: May 17, 2012, 02:11:37 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

If Rastafarians can legally use cannabis, those who have descended from the oriental orthodox in some form, even if they are not canonical, then I should be able to use cannabis too.  But I'm not.  

Rastafarianism's creators are some Protestant LARPers that had no clue about the Oriental Orthodoxy.


A) In the United States Rastafari brothers and sisters CAN NOT legally use cannabis aside from in compliance with any existing state medicinal laws. I can't speak for in the UK or other places. The Supreme Court has indeed recognized Rastafarians' rights to grow dreadlocked hair in the work place but has not recognized Rastafarianism as a legitimate religion (and neither would Rastas want them to I'm sure).  The major "mansions" of Rastafari are indeed 501 C 3 registered in the US, including the Twelve Tribes of Israel and the Nyabinghi Divine Theocratic Order, but this does not inherently give Rastas the same kind of recognition as say the Native American Church notoriously has with peyote.
and now for the history lecture..

B) True, many of the elders of the Rastafari movement were Anglicans and Baptists, a good few were also Catholic under the persuasion and influence of the Honorable Marcus Mosiah Garvey who was himself a good Catholic.  Further, through the Ethiopian World Federation (EWF), and organization founded directly by HIM Haile Selassie in Bath, England 1937, which had spread into the Caribbean and which diplomatically mediated with both the Emperor and the Church which culminated both in the sending of the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church and clergy on a mission to Trinidad and Tobagos in 1956. Rastas have then for a long time have some clues with the Oriental Orthodox hav After HIM visit to Jamaica in 1966 (which was a coincidental stop in response to a direct invitation by the Rastafari community through the auspices of the EWF, HIM was initially just visiting the Ethiopian parishes in Trinidad nearby) the Rastafari elders and leadership had diplomatically negotiated for the Church to come to Jamaica as well.  In 1966 the Elders  (notice the gentlemen at 8:21 into the clip) met with HIM for several hours, where they publicly received several medals and accommodations from the Emperor and then spent the afternoon talking brass tax.  This culminated in 1970 with the sending of a Tewahedo mission to Jamaica, and with a Bishopric to be established over the dozen parishes then (and now)scattered across the islands.  His Grace Abune Yesehaq was sent initially as a Bishop just of the Caribbean, but later in 1979 HG was appointed to be the Archbishop of all of North America after he had helped to found several parishes in the US (my local parish here in LA being a part of this movement).  Rastafari converts to the Church were integral players in this, directly involved in both leadership negotiations and also grassroots movements (here in LA Rastas were part of the early ማኅበር which helped to found our local Tewahedo parish).  There are two distinct generations of founders of Rastafari, the 1920s-1930s Elders who were Baptists and Anglicans, and the 1950s-1960s Rastas who largely were connected or affiliated with Orthodox.  It is not that Rastafari is Orthodox, not at all.  Orthodox is Orthodox.  However, Orthodox indeed had a significant impact and influence on both generations of Elders in Rastafari, but especially the second and now the third and fourth Wink

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« Reply #169 on: December 08, 2012, 11:15:54 PM »

I just resurrected this thread before Tweety could.

Direct any ire you would have had against him toward me.

'Tis a shame this thread died, though.

What is the OC response — at least those in the U.S. — to the demon weed now that it is legal out west? Does one partake if offered so as not to offend a host's hospitality?

Perhaps that is why we have not seen Acts lo these many months?
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« Reply #170 on: December 08, 2012, 11:20:11 PM »

I just resurrected this thread before Tweety could.

Direct any ire you would have had against him toward me.

'Tis a shame this thread died, though.

What is the OC response — at least those in the U.S. — to the demon weed now that it is legal out west? Does one partake if offered so as not to offend a host's hospitality?

Perhaps that is why we have not seen Acts lo these many months?
No, I would offend before consuming this garbage. It's idiotic what is happening.

Glad it was you bringing this one back.  LOL!
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« Reply #171 on: December 09, 2012, 02:01:52 PM »

I always double check the dates of threads not to make sure I'm not contributing in any way to thread necromancy  laugh
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« Reply #172 on: December 09, 2012, 05:34:58 PM »

I don't know how much of this is truly science and how much of this is just hippie New Age conspiracy, but either way, isn't inhaling smoke in itself--no matter what it is--still bad for you? That being said though, if I had to pick one of the three bad habits, I would much rather smoke marijuana opposed to drinking alcohol or smoking tobacco--all of which are MUCH worse for you than marijuana. Ideally though, I prefer to touch neither.
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« Reply #173 on: December 09, 2012, 05:47:35 PM »


   i'm hungry
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« Reply #174 on: December 09, 2012, 05:58:57 PM »

I don't know how much of this is truly science and how much of this is just hippie New Age conspiracy, but either way, isn't inhaling smoke in itself--no matter what it is--still bad for you? That being said though, if I had to pick one of the three bad habits, I would much rather smoke marijuana opposed to drinking alcohol or smoking tobacco--all of which are MUCH worse for you than marijuana. Ideally though, I prefer to touch neither.
There are legit medical uses of marijuana. Some of the OP's claims are just wishful thinking, though.

And yeah, it's never great for you to inhale smoke, but some pot in moderation won't harm you in the long run.

I don't smoke it, but have plenty of friends who do, including one who did a stint in prison because he was caught with enough of it to be considered "intent to distribute." The time behind bars caused him more harm than the pot ever did.
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« Reply #175 on: December 09, 2012, 06:26:01 PM »

When I went to the University of Maryland in the 1970's the cops raided the dorms at 2 AM and hauled off 36 students. They had informants living in the dorms who fingered people. Students were arrested for very small amounts of pot and incredibly, some were arrested for "conspiracy to possess".

The entire reason for the raid was that the Governor, Marvin Mandel was running for re-election and wanted PR that he was cleaning up drugs on campus.

The campus exploded for days. Thousands of protesters, classes canceled and troops were sent to the Amory just off campus.

I was the newly elected Student President. The admins called me in and and tried to intimidate me. There had been a tradition during the Anti-War Protests  of blocking Route One which runs in front of Campus. They said:

"Marc. We have National Guard five minutes away. If you ( the demonstrators) get anywhere near route one, Well.. we sure don't want another Kent State " Which meant they were threatening to shoot into the crowd.

My reply was:

"Fellas,Telling me you dont want another Kent State is like me saying I intend to burn the administration building down. And guess what, I have far more ability to get this building burned down then you have to fire on students. So lets cut the Bull and see what we have to do to work this out"

How much time was lost? How much money? How much State tax money? And for what? A little pot??..
Pot makes you hungry and horny. It doesn't make you violent and it certainly isnt worth planting informants, having a riot and having perfectly fine young students get arrested.

A few years later Governor Mandel  wound up going to Prison for 19 months for mail fraud and racketeering.

I remain free and at large.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2012, 06:29:30 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

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« Reply #176 on: December 13, 2012, 12:56:43 PM »

I'm still against marijuana. But now I have to ask... What is the difference between drinking alcohol and having one joint? Is there a big difference in intoxication levels?

As for inhalation of smoke, if that were a reason not to do it, then we shouldn't have incense with coals in church, and we shouldn't be putting anyone (kids especially) near the censer. I would, of course, argue that is ridiculous, but you'd have to draw that conclusion if you argue about smoke inhalation.
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« Reply #177 on: December 13, 2012, 01:08:16 PM »

I'm still against marijuana. But now I have to ask... What is the difference between drinking alcohol and having one joint? Is there a big difference in intoxication levels?

Marijuana gets you faster than alcohol however the impact is shorter (about 3 hours max.). As soon as you get high you can't get "higher" (in contrary to alcohol which can be drunk to unconsciousness). There is also difference in action: marijuana makes you lazy, prone to laughter attacks, and hungry. People who smoke it rarely are more resistant to it's effect than those who smoke frequently. Marijuana also does not leave any negative consequences after (there is no anything like hangover).
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« Reply #178 on: December 13, 2012, 01:12:23 PM »

I'm still against marijuana. But now I have to ask... What is the difference between drinking alcohol and having one joint? Is there a big difference in intoxication levels?

As for inhalation of smoke, if that were a reason not to do it, then we shouldn't have incense with coals in church, and we shouldn't be putting anyone (kids especially) near the censer. I would, of course, argue that is ridiculous, but you'd have to draw that conclusion if you argue about smoke inhalation.

I'd say there's a fairly big difference in just about every type of intoxication between the two. One really can't compare between drinking alcohol and having "one joint" for a variety of reasons- quality of alcohol, quality of marijuana, desired intoxication levels, size of joint, differences in intoxication, etc. A joint rolled from lower strength/quality marijuana might not do much more than give one a headache, while a joint rolled from "the good stuff" might last the smoker quite a while if one or two hits gets him to where he'd like to be.

Smoking marijuana comes with a certain extent of diminishing returns, unlike alcohol. There's a certain point of stoned where smoking more just simply has no further effect- back in my smoking days we called this "smoking ourselves sober". While it is possible to smoke to the point where one doesn't feel like moving and has drastically reduced reaction times, neither I nor anyone I ever smoked with ever reached a point of intoxication where one doesn't remember what one did the next day or behaved out of character (unless "in character" is being a raging jack-ass- in which case pot often had the effect of making those people quite mild indeed)- at least not from marijuana alone. Short term memory loss, is of course, a problem- one might forget all about that pizza in the oven- but he will also remember about that time he forgot about the pizza in the oven for quite a while.

Marijuana gets you faster than alcohol however the impact is shorter (about 3 hours max.). As soon as you get high you can't get "higher" (in contrary to alcohol which can be drunk to unconsciousness). There is also difference in action: marijuana makes you lazy, prone to laughter attacks, and hungry. People who smoke it rarely are more resistant to it's effect than those who smoke frequently. Marijuana also does not leave any negative consequences after (there is no anything like hangover).

Not entirely true- there is the effect that my group called the "weedover". It required quite a bit of smoking the night before, the next day one feels "burned-out" upon immediately waking. A few cups of coffee will clear that right up.
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« Reply #179 on: December 13, 2012, 01:55:30 PM »

Is the rejection of marijuana in the U.S. more attributable to a kind of puritanical mindset amongst Americans? I'm thinking of the same mindset that led to the prohibition of alcohol.

Are we, as Orthodox, opposed to its use because its (mostly) illegal in the United States and other nations? What makes it so different from the effects of alcohol that makes us absolutely reject it, but accept alcohol (so much so that many of our churches have bars)?

Just asking hypothetically here... In my church, sometimes (in non-fasting times) we will have shots of slivovitz after liturgy. We unfortunately also have some people who smoke tobacco inside the social hall. Is it terribly incomprehensible to imagine someone (if it were legal) bringing a joint into a social hall?
« Last Edit: December 13, 2012, 01:58:46 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
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« Reply #180 on: December 13, 2012, 10:01:24 PM »

Dear xariskai, the point of my original post was that cannabis is good for human beings in moderation.  "For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected..." (1 Timothy 4).
The problem you're having, acts, as usual, is that you're pulling verses from all over without considering their context. The context here is a discussion about food:
Quote from: 1 Tim 4:3-5
"They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain FROM CERTAIN FOODS, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving,because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer."

If you don't want to say something consumed as medicine is "food," then don't.  I call it food.  I don't care what you call it.  I don't care if you believe Genesis 1:29 literally or if you don't.  I believe it, but I'm not going to argue with you about "food" endlessly.  That has virtually nothing to do with the point of this thread.
It has to do with your arguments. They are from passages dealing with food.

Your biblical "arguments" -including your constant claims that those who do not agree with you are "not listening to God"- are no better than your pet assumption that poisons and medicines are food, and collapse if they are not.

I'm glad you don't care whether I consider poisons and medicines to be food, or whether I think your biblical arguments are nonsense, which in this case amounts to the same thing.

And don't listen to God either. Just ignore that pesky little verse in Genesis chapter 1 where God gives us "all seed bearing plants for food"...Just ignore the fact that the plant haters were prophesied in 1st Timothy chapter 4.
It is more a matter that we are skeptical of your "creative exegesis," not that we don't listen to God. Your repeated insistence that those who disagree with your novel interpretations are less spiritual than you are is as silly as your method of argument generally.

The laws of the U.S. Federal government that prohibit all use, even moderate and medical use of cannabis, are anti-Christian.
This is another stupid claim until/unless you can demonstrate that cannabis use is a Christian dogma. Those who are less than fully convinced by acts420's idiosyncratic "prooftexts are "not listening to God," were "prophecied" in Paul's epistle to Timothy, and are "un-Christian" ad nauseum -blah blah blah.

When you tell us you like to use cannabis and think it cures virtually every major ailment ever known to mankind my reaction is to *yawn*; but when you say again and again that those who disagree are less spiritual than you, are violating God's word, are un-Christian etc. my reaction is to lolz.

Somehow cannabis helped me realize my doctrinal errors.
At this rate if you graduate to opium you might even become aware of contextual exegesis.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2012, 10:31:44 PM by xariskai » Logged

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« Reply #181 on: December 14, 2012, 08:20:09 PM »

Why are we still discussing the pseudo benefits of marijuana?

We should be opposed to any mind altering substance being used in a recreational fashion.  With alcohol, I agree there is some argument to be made in favor of MJ; however, you can have one drink and it not affect you.  I don’t know anyone, who hasn’t been smoking A LOT, who can smoke one joint and it not affect them.  In fact, most people it seems to take only one or two drags to feel its affects. 
« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 08:26:47 PM by Kerdy » Logged
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« Reply #182 on: December 14, 2012, 08:24:26 PM »

Why are we still discussing the pseudo benefits of marijuana?

More to the point, we still don't know what "cannaibs" is.

 Huh
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