Author Topic: New Russian Law limits Religious Freedom.  (Read 936 times)

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Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: New Russian Law limits Religious Freedom.
« Reply #45 on: August 08, 2016, 08:52:36 PM »
I just watched a video talking about Pussy Riot and religious freedom in Russia.  I was aware that few Russians attended church, but I was surprised by the statistic that the overwhelming majority of Orthodox in Russia have not even received communion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XmcRmAm4Ps

It sounds to me like the story we get in the western news is not the whole picture, and the truth is more complicated.  The new law is disturbing, but it may not have quite the practical implications that news outlets here are saying.   It was also interesting to see that Putin's refused to help the state church in the past to impose a more rigorous type of Orthodoxy upon Russians. 

Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: New Russian Law limits Religious Freedom.
« Reply #46 on: August 08, 2016, 08:54:19 PM »


Angela Merkel does the same handsign.  In fact it seems to be her signature.

I used to study Yoga and Buddhism years ago.  That doesn't look like a mudra.

Offline Rohzek

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Re: New Russian Law limits Religious Freedom.
« Reply #47 on: August 08, 2016, 09:19:35 PM »
Quite concerning indeed and provokes various thoughts from myself. First, this is a clear violation of freedom of conscience. God clearly made our conscience autonomous and can only be accessed by He Himself. Yet at the same time, he has given us free will and rarely if ever has violated anyone's free will (the exception of Pharaoh comes to mind). This is so that we may act out of conscience. Now the Russian government is clearly trying to control and restrict the conscience of its peoples, particularly those of religious minorities. Presumably, as with any law, this motion will ultimately be backed with the barrel of a gun. This hardly comes across as Christ-like to me.

The other thought that this provokes is the glaring problem of Russian Orthodoxy, and Eastern Orthodoxy in general: that is it seems to have relatively ineffective missionary work compared to Protestants globally, and Catholics in Africa. It's because of this glaring problem, in my view, that it has such terrible problems keeping its own members. Therefore, it has a great fear of outsiders.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: New Russian Law limits Religious Freedom.
« Reply #48 on: August 08, 2016, 10:11:00 PM »
  Most of the Hand Signs he was making you can see here :   
http://olivetjournal.com/false-ministries-2-occult-hand-signs-part-2/

As Freud said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.  Joel Osteen may be a half-educated TV preacher that got his theology out of a Cracker Jacks box, but he's not an occultist for "talking with his hands".


What do you think these signs mean ?   Who do you think his real allegiance is to ?





I think it means that whoever took the picture told him make a pose that looks wise but welcoming and that is what he went with.
The term planet earth is an innovation which has arisen in recent centuries with the error of heliocentrism.

If one wants to confess a pure doctrine of Orthodoxy, they should be careful not to refer to the earth as a planet, unlike the current Pope as well as Patriarch Kirill and Patriarch Bartholomew, who regularly speak in error when they refer to our planet earth.

Offline Minnesotan

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Re: New Russian Law limits Religious Freedom.
« Reply #49 on: August 08, 2016, 10:23:20 PM »
I would also like to point out that this law may have a chilling effect even on Orthodox clergy, since it raises the possibility that they could be punished for 1. criticizing the state (would a modern St. Ambrose of Milan be punished for excommunicating Putin as the original Ambrose did to Theodosius?), or 2. criticizing their superiors (remember Athanasius contra mundum?)
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Offline Jude1:3

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Re: New Russian Law limits Religious Freedom.
« Reply #50 on: August 08, 2016, 10:52:08 PM »
Angela Merkel does the same handsign.  In fact it seems to be her signature.




Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Re: New Russian Law limits Religious Freedom.
« Reply #51 on: August 08, 2016, 10:53:40 PM »
I would also like to point out that this law may have a chilling effect even on Orthodox clergy, since it raises the possibility that they could be punished for 1. criticizing the state (would a modern St. Ambrose of Milan be punished for excommunicating Putin as the original Ambrose did to Theodosius?), or 2. criticizing their superiors (remember Athanasius contra mundum?)
1. Who knows? Has Putin done something excommunication-worthy? Arguably Theodosius was much harsher on pagans than even Putin's new laws are on everyone not the Moscow Patriarchate. Besides, given an actual new St. Ambrose maybe he too would repent.
2.  Yes, St. Athanasius (and I am preety sure at that minute Pope Vigilius) contra mundum while St. Athanasius was being chased around by the Arians anyway. Not sure that is quite the same thing...
In 1666 the Orthodox Old-Believers were supposedly anathemized in Moscow.  Coincidence?

Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Re: New Russian Law limits Religious Freedom.
« Reply #52 on: August 08, 2016, 10:55:14 PM »
  Most of the Hand Signs he was making you can see here :   
http://olivetjournal.com/false-ministries-2-occult-hand-signs-part-2/

As Freud said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.  Joel Osteen may be a half-educated TV preacher that got his theology out of a Cracker Jacks box, but he's not an occultist for "talking with his hands".


What do you think these signs mean ?   Who do you think his real allegiance is to ?





I think his real allegiance is to Joel Osteen (and possibly his bank account) ;)
In 1666 the Orthodox Old-Believers were supposedly anathemized in Moscow.  Coincidence?

Offline mike

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Re: New Russian Law limits Religious Freedom.
« Reply #53 on: August 08, 2016, 11:45:38 PM »
I would also like to point out that this law may have a chilling effect even on Orthodox clergy, since it raises the possibility that they could be punished for 1. criticizing the state (would a modern St. Ambrose of Milan be punished for excommunicating Putin as the original Ambrose did to Theodosius?), or 2. criticizing their superiors (remember Athanasius contra mundum?)
1. Who knows? Has Putin done something excommunication-worthy?

Adultery? Murder?
« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 11:45:56 PM by mike »
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Offline sestir

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Re: New Russian Law limits Religious Freedom.
« Reply #54 on: August 09, 2016, 01:42:46 AM »
In the case of the Jehovah's Witnesses, according to their version of the story, the law is used like this:

2009: Prosecutors in Taganrog and Gorno-Altaysk filed claims in court, demanding that numerous JW publications be declared “extremist” and placed on the Federal List of Extremist Materials (FLEM). Today 87 publications are on the list.

2010: As DeniseDenise forecasted, local authorities have taken advantage of this provision in the law to obtain court orders to search hundreds of homes of individual Witnesses and their Kingdom Halls for any banned religious literature.

Quote
In addition to filing charges against individual Witnesses, law-enforcement officials have used the banned literature they planted in Kingdom Halls as “evidence” for grounds to liquidate the Witnesses’ local religious organizations (LROs). Once an LRO is liquidated as “extremist,” the State seizes its assets. As a result, local Witnesses lose their houses of worship. This has already happened in Taganrog and Samara. Authorities in other cities are following this same pattern. — JWs' official website

While I do hope the Jehovah's Witnesses will suffer a crisis world-wide that make their members search for a better alternative instead of telling everybody that they have the truth. It does look like it's Russia's local governments who are the extremists in this case.

And perhaps we shouldn't talk about such a fuzzy thing as freedom of religion, but instead talk about freedom of speech and freedom of assembly. It is easier for everybody to understand why they are needed.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: New Russian Law limits Religious Freedom.
« Reply #55 on: August 09, 2016, 05:38:11 PM »
I would also like to point out that this law may have a chilling effect even on Orthodox clergy, since it raises the possibility that they could be punished for 1. criticizing the state (would a modern St. Ambrose of Milan be punished for excommunicating Putin as the original Ambrose did to Theodosius?), or 2. criticizing their superiors (remember Athanasius contra mundum?)
1. Who knows? Has Putin done something excommunication-worthy?

Adultery? Murder?
Not many Emperors would have been able to pass that high bar. :P
The term planet earth is an innovation which has arisen in recent centuries with the error of heliocentrism.

If one wants to confess a pure doctrine of Orthodoxy, they should be careful not to refer to the earth as a planet, unlike the current Pope as well as Patriarch Kirill and Patriarch Bartholomew, who regularly speak in error when they refer to our planet earth.

Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: New Russian Law limits Religious Freedom.
« Reply #56 on: August 09, 2016, 06:33:04 PM »
I would also like to point out that this law may have a chilling effect even on Orthodox clergy, since it raises the possibility that they could be punished for 1. criticizing the state (would a modern St. Ambrose of Milan be punished for excommunicating Putin as the original Ambrose did to Theodosius?), or 2. criticizing their superiors (remember Athanasius contra mundum?)
1. Who knows? Has Putin done something excommunication-worthy?

Adultery? Murder?
Not many Emperors would have been able to pass that high bar. :P

Good point, I guess St. Constantine is not really popular in these quarters, since the bar is so high  :(
« Last Edit: August 09, 2016, 06:35:20 PM by seekeroftruth777 »

Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: New Russian Law limits Religious Freedom.
« Reply #57 on: August 09, 2016, 06:38:46 PM »
In the case of the Jehovah's Witnesses, according to their version of the story, the law is used like this:

2009: Prosecutors in Taganrog and Gorno-Altaysk filed claims in court, demanding that numerous JW publications be declared “extremist” and placed on the Federal List of Extremist Materials (FLEM). Today 87 publications are on the list.

2010: As DeniseDenise forecasted, local authorities have taken advantage of this provision in the law to obtain court orders to search hundreds of homes of individual Witnesses and their Kingdom Halls for any banned religious literature.

Quote
In addition to filing charges against individual Witnesses, law-enforcement officials have used the banned literature they planted in Kingdom Halls as “evidence” for grounds to liquidate the Witnesses’ local religious organizations (LROs). Once an LRO is liquidated as “extremist,” the State seizes its assets. As a result, local Witnesses lose their houses of worship. This has already happened in Taganrog and Samara. Authorities in other cities are following this same pattern. — JWs' official website

While I do hope the Jehovah's Witnesses will suffer a crisis world-wide that make their members search for a better alternative instead of telling everybody that they have the truth. It does look like it's Russia's local governments who are the extremists in this case.

And perhaps we shouldn't talk about such a fuzzy thing as freedom of religion, but instead talk about freedom of speech and freedom of assembly. It is easier for everybody to understand why they are needed.

Got a link to these events, it would seem dishonest to plant banned literature as evidence against the Jehovah Witness, and I mean evidence, other than their propaganda websites.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2016, 06:39:41 PM by seekeroftruth777 »

Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: New Russian Law limits Religious Freedom.
« Reply #58 on: August 09, 2016, 07:01:24 PM »
Orthodox Russia is doing what needs to be done to squash Heresy from infecting it's population.

Russia on the other hand only recognizes four religions such as Orthodoxy, Islam, Judaism, and Buddhism as traditional religions of Russia. That the law of the Russian land passed in 1997, and hasn't been overturned yet.

I get your point, but I'm talking about groups who say their Christian, yet are heretics or heterodox like the Zionist Evangelicals, Seventh Day Adventists or Oneness Pentecostals. Buddhists, Muslim's, and the Jews, who are not even Christian, I wasn't addressing them.

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Re: New Russian Law limits Religious Freedom.
« Reply #59 on: August 09, 2016, 07:24:01 PM »
Orthodox Russia is doing what needs to be done to squash Heresy from infecting it's population.

Russia on the other hand only recognizes four religions such as Orthodoxy, Islam, Judaism, and Buddhism as traditional religions of Russia. That the law of the Russian land passed in 1997, and hasn't been overturned yet.

I get your point, but I'm talking about groups who say their Christian, yet are heretics or heterodox like the Zionist Evangelicals, Seventh Day Adventists or Oneness Pentecostals. Buddhists, Muslim's, and the Jews, who are not even Christian, I wasn't addressing them.

Sure, but "Orthodox Russia" recognises those "not even Christian" religions as "traditional religions of Russia".  That's a big deal if you're an Orthodox Christian country. 

On the other hand, if you're a "Russian" Russia, then it makes perfect sense to privilege those four "traditional religions", but the online warriors fighting for the purity of Orthodoxy better realise that their religion is being used as a nationalist prop. 
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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: New Russian Law limits Religious Freedom.
« Reply #60 on: August 09, 2016, 07:57:08 PM »
There is also the small fact of other now 'native' groups existing in Russia...

Take for example Russian Baptists ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_of_Evangelical_Christians-Baptists_of_Russia) who have existed since at least 1867.

and how will the law classify Old Believers?  Orthodox, or not? 

Here is a brief summary and timeline....which will show, that while there are new groups....there are also a multitude that have been there for longer than you think

The history of indigenous, Russian evangelical Protestantism was anticipated by movements such as the Strigolniki in the 14th century and later in the 16th-18th centuries[4] the Molokan,[5] Dukhobor,[6] to some extent, Subbotniks, and in 19th century Tolstoyan rural communes, who prepared the ground for the movement's future spread. The first evidence on some of the above communes' existence appeared in 16th - 17th centuries.[5] A large number of the above communities emigrated to Canada, the USA and Latin America in 19th and 20th centuries.

The first Russian Baptist communities arose in unrelated strains in three widely separated regions of the Russian Empire (Transcaucasia, Ukraine, and St. Petersburg) in the 1860s and 1870s.

From the information of Christian History Institute, the number of Baptists in Russia significantly grew after World War I. Some Russian prisoners were converted by German missionaries and returned home to preach to others. By 1950, there were an estimated 2,000,000 Baptists in the Soviet Union, with the largest portion in Ukraine.

Many leaders and ordinary believers of different Protestant communities fell victims to the persecution by Communist regime, including imprisonment and executions. The leader of the Seventh-day Adventist movement in the Soviet Union Vladimir Shelkov (1895–1980) spent almost his entire life after 1931 in prison and died in a camp in Yakutia. Pentecostals were given 20-25 year prison terms en masse and many perished there, including one of the leaders of the movement, Ivan Voronaev.[7]

In the period after the Second World War, Protestant believers in the USSR (Baptists, Pentecostals, Adventists etc.) were forced into mental hospitals and endured trials and imprisonment (often for refusal to enter military service). Some were even deprived of their parental rights.[7]


so where do you draw the line of 'don't say anything about your beliefs?'
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: New Russian Law limits Religious Freedom.
« Reply #61 on: August 09, 2016, 08:07:36 PM »
There is also the small fact of other now 'native' groups existing in Russia... [...]
Those mostly-now-ethnic groups aren't very interested on proselytism.

Quote
Many leaders and ordinary believers of different Protestant communities fell victims to the persecution by Communist regime, [...]
This is all very sad.

Quote
so where do you draw the line of 'don't say anything about your beliefs?'
Well, this is a hard subject, but it doesn't mean it's impossible to draw this line. I've contrasted some situations on my funny comment above.  :P
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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: New Russian Law limits Religious Freedom.
« Reply #62 on: August 09, 2016, 08:12:33 PM »
There is also the small fact of other now 'native' groups existing in Russia... [...]
Those mostly-now-ethnic groups aren't very interested on proselytism.

Quote
Many leaders and ordinary believers of different Protestant communities fell victims to the persecution by Communist regime, [...]
This is all very sad.

Quote
so where do you draw the line of 'don't say anything about your beliefs?'
Well, this is a hard subject, but it doesn't mean it's impossible to draw this line. I've contrasted some situations on my funny comment above.  :P


The point is....it -starts- with you need a permit to 'proselytize', then the definition of what that includes....changes, and it changes to include even mentioning what you are....

sorry....this is -how- Russia works......and has done so for oh 5 centuries now......it's not a leap...it's not a guess.....
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: New Russian Law limits Religious Freedom.
« Reply #63 on: August 09, 2016, 08:17:53 PM »
If I were a Russian politician, I'd be careful to appreciate this kind of measure. But I'm just someone on the other side of the world looking for it as it is by itself (is this correct English?): good. If this escalates to some XXI-century Sergianism as many here seem to be worried about (and as polemist Heterodox sources have been announcing for ages), I'll join you to reprove it.
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Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: New Russian Law limits Religious Freedom.
« Reply #64 on: August 09, 2016, 08:24:41 PM »
There is also the small fact of other now 'native' groups existing in Russia... [...]
Those mostly-now-ethnic groups aren't very interested on proselytism.

Quote
Many leaders and ordinary believers of different Protestant communities fell victims to the persecution by Communist regime, [...]
This is all very sad.

Quote
so where do you draw the line of 'don't say anything about your beliefs?'
Well, this is a hard subject, but it doesn't mean it's impossible to draw this line. I've contrasted some situations on my funny comment above.  :P


The point is....it -starts- with you need a permit to 'proselytize', then the definition of what that includes....changes, and it changes to include even mentioning what you are....

sorry....this is -how- Russia works......and has done so for oh 5 centuries now......it's not a leap...it's not a guess.....

Unless we start seeing mass round ups and the return of Gulags, the fearmongering over this law is hyped to the max. It meant to stop the spread of heterodoxy to the faithful.

Offline Ainnir

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Re: New Russian Law limits Religious Freedom.
« Reply #65 on: August 09, 2016, 08:53:25 PM »
Don't stress yourself, Denise.  Sometimes we cannot convince people.  It is not your burden to do so.  :)

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: New Russian Law limits Religious Freedom.
« Reply #66 on: August 09, 2016, 08:55:27 PM »
I don't think she's stressed, we're among friends here.
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Offline Ainnir

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Re: New Russian Law limits Religious Freedom.
« Reply #67 on: August 09, 2016, 09:39:35 PM »
Perhaps that was presumptuous of me; please forgive me for that, then.

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: New Russian Law limits Religious Freedom.
« Reply #68 on: August 09, 2016, 09:41:03 PM »
Nothing to be forgiven for, you're fine. Maybe my tone was improper, ESL thing.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2016, 09:43:07 PM by RaphaCam »
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: New Russian Law limits Religious Freedom.
« Reply #69 on: August 09, 2016, 11:08:40 PM »
There is also the small fact of other now 'native' groups existing in Russia... [...]
Those mostly-now-ethnic groups aren't very interested on proselytism.

Quote
Many leaders and ordinary believers of different Protestant communities fell victims to the persecution by Communist regime, [...]
This is all very sad.

Quote
so where do you draw the line of 'don't say anything about your beliefs?'
Well, this is a hard subject, but it doesn't mean it's impossible to draw this line. I've contrasted some situations on my funny comment above.  :P


The point is....it -starts- with you need a permit to 'proselytize', then the definition of what that includes....changes, and it changes to include even mentioning what you are....

sorry....this is -how- Russia works......and has done so for oh 5 centuries now......it's not a leap...it's not a guess.....

Unless we start seeing mass round ups and the return of Gulags, the fearmongering over this law is hyped to the max. It meant to stop the spread of heterodoxy to the faithful.

Maybe if all of the faithful were children, you'd have a point. But we're talking about grown adults here.
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Re: New Russian Law limits Religious Freedom.
« Reply #70 on: August 10, 2016, 12:04:10 AM »
Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.--Byrhtferth of Ramsey

Offline juliogb

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Re: New Russian Law limits Religious Freedom.
« Reply #71 on: August 10, 2016, 07:38:43 AM »
Quote
Unless we start seeing mass round ups and the return of Gulags, the fearmongering over this law is hyped to the max. It meant to stop the spread of heterodoxy to the faithful.


The spread of heterodoxy should be ''fought'' by the church (and the church alone, not the church + Putin) and its members peacefully, period. Putting the state, wich is a sofisticated monopoly of violence, to solve church problems is wrong and imoral. This kind of policy doesn't help the orthodox church at all, it will affect negatively its public image, reinforce the martyr complex in heterodox communities and push people outside the church.