Author Topic: Perry Noble, NewSpring, and alcoholism among church leaders  (Read 1085 times)

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Offline Minnesotan

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Former NewSpring Church senior pastor Perry Noble broke his silence Wednesday, in a live video message on Facebook.

Noble, the church's founder, started the message by acknowledging his unusual social media silence. A prolific social media user, it was his first Facebook post in more than two weeks.

He wasted no time in the three-minute twenty-one second message, quickly telling people he bore no ill will after being dismissed from the church he founded.

"I. Still. Love. My. Church," Noble said, pausing after each word for emphasis. "I wanted to say 'Thank you' for the unbelievable support that you guys have shown me on Twitter."

The 45-year-old pastor was removed from his spot as the church's senior pastor effective July 1, but the congregation first learned about the decision last Sunday in a church announcement that cited his alcohol dependency.

Noble said the church's leaders made the right decision.

"God has gotten my attention. I'm focused on getting better. I'm not bitter," he said. "My dependency on alcohol, I ran to it instead of Jesus and I was wrong and I am going to do whatever it takes to make it right."

Noble said he will be entering a treatment facility, but did not elaborate further.

More here. NewSpring is one of the largest Protestant megachurches in the United States, and the second fastest-growing according to some sources. Some think that Noble's erratic past behavior both on and off the pulpit may have been the result of his alcoholism.

I'm wondering if the Orthodox Church has ever had a problem with alcoholism or drug abuse among the ordained (i.e., the so-called "whiskey priest" phenomenon), and if so, how is the problem usually dealt with? Is it ever considered grounds for defrocking, or merely temporary suspension?
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Perry Noble, NewSpring, and alcoholism among church leaders
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2016, 11:19:20 PM »


I'm wondering if the Orthodox Church has ever had a problem with alcoholism or drug abuse among the ordained (i.e., the so-called "whiskey priest" phenomenon), and if so, how is the problem usually dealt with? Is it ever considered grounds for defrocking, or merely temporary suspension?

Bishop DEMITRI of the Antiochian Orthodox Church in North America comes to mind.  This was over a decade ago, but if you read the letter which is linked here, you will see that here have been some guidelines to deal with this since 1999 by the Board of Trustees. 

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Re: Perry Noble, NewSpring, and alcoholism among church leaders
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2016, 02:20:49 PM »
I'm wondering if the Orthodox Church has ever had a problem with alcoholism or drug abuse among the ordained (i.e., the so-called "whiskey priest" phenomenon), and if so, how is the problem usually dealt with? Is it ever considered grounds for defrocking, or merely temporary suspension?

Is it a rhetorical question?
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Re: Perry Noble, NewSpring, and alcoholism among church leaders
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2016, 06:00:15 PM »
I'm wondering if the Orthodox Church has ever had a problem with alcoholism or drug abuse among the ordained (i.e., the so-called "whiskey priest" phenomenon), and if so, how is the problem usually dealt with? Is it ever considered grounds for defrocking, or merely temporary suspension?

Is it a rhetorical question?

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Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Perry Noble, NewSpring, and alcoholism among church leaders
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2016, 06:15:01 PM »
Quote
Former NewSpring Church senior pastor Perry Noble broke his silence Wednesday, in a live video message on Facebook.

Noble, the church's founder, started the message by acknowledging his unusual social media silence. A prolific social media user, it was his first Facebook post in more than two weeks.

He wasted no time in the three-minute twenty-one second message, quickly telling people he bore no ill will after being dismissed from the church he founded.

"I. Still. Love. My. Church," Noble said, pausing after each word for emphasis. "I wanted to say 'Thank you' for the unbelievable support that you guys have shown me on Twitter."

The 45-year-old pastor was removed from his spot as the church's senior pastor effective July 1, but the congregation first learned about the decision last Sunday in a church announcement that cited his alcohol dependency.

Noble said the church's leaders made the right decision.

"God has gotten my attention. I'm focused on getting better. I'm not bitter," he said. "My dependency on alcohol, I ran to it instead of Jesus and I was wrong and I am going to do whatever it takes to make it right."

Noble said he will be entering a treatment facility, but did not elaborate further.

More here. NewSpring is one of the largest Protestant megachurches in the United States, and the second fastest-growing according to some sources. Some think that Noble's erratic past behavior both on and off the pulpit may have been the result of his alcoholism.

I'm wondering if the Orthodox Church has ever had a problem with alcoholism or drug abuse among the ordained (i.e., the so-called "whiskey priest" phenomenon), and if so, how is the problem usually dealt with? Is it ever considered grounds for defrocking, or merely temporary suspension?

This is an area I minister in and, yes, there are alcoholic clergy.  You can also find other addictions as well, though I would say on a world-scale, alcoholism is the 'King' of clerical problems.

'Alcoholism' does not appear in the canons, and so it does not (technically-speaking) constitute grounds for defrocking.  However, the attendant behaviors can and do.  However, most of the bishops I have spoken to about the problem would much rather have clergy put into treatment then merely deposed.

The problem is that such grounds for using the Church's disciplinary system to push clergy towards treatment have not been established.  So, usually when you get 'caught' it is too late to avoid suspension or deposition.

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Offline Antonis

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Re: Perry Noble, NewSpring, and alcoholism among church leaders
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2016, 07:04:27 PM »
Quote
Former NewSpring Church senior pastor Perry Noble broke his silence Wednesday, in a live video message on Facebook.

Noble, the church's founder, started the message by acknowledging his unusual social media silence. A prolific social media user, it was his first Facebook post in more than two weeks.

He wasted no time in the three-minute twenty-one second message, quickly telling people he bore no ill will after being dismissed from the church he founded.

"I. Still. Love. My. Church," Noble said, pausing after each word for emphasis. "I wanted to say 'Thank you' for the unbelievable support that you guys have shown me on Twitter."

The 45-year-old pastor was removed from his spot as the church's senior pastor effective July 1, but the congregation first learned about the decision last Sunday in a church announcement that cited his alcohol dependency.

Noble said the church's leaders made the right decision.

"God has gotten my attention. I'm focused on getting better. I'm not bitter," he said. "My dependency on alcohol, I ran to it instead of Jesus and I was wrong and I am going to do whatever it takes to make it right."

Noble said he will be entering a treatment facility, but did not elaborate further.

More here. NewSpring is one of the largest Protestant megachurches in the United States, and the second fastest-growing according to some sources. Some think that Noble's erratic past behavior both on and off the pulpit may have been the result of his alcoholism.

I'm wondering if the Orthodox Church has ever had a problem with alcoholism or drug abuse among the ordained (i.e., the so-called "whiskey priest" phenomenon), and if so, how is the problem usually dealt with? Is it ever considered grounds for defrocking, or merely temporary suspension?

This is an area I minister in and, yes, there are alcoholic clergy.  You can also find other addictions as well, though I would say on a world-scale, alcoholism is the 'King' of clerical problems.

'Alcoholism' does not appear in the canons, and so it does not (technically-speaking) constitute grounds for defrocking.  However, the attendant behaviors can and do.  However, most of the bishops I have spoken to about the problem would much rather have clergy put into treatment then merely deposed.

The problem is that such grounds for using the Church's disciplinary system to push clergy towards treatment have not been established.  So, usually when you get 'caught' it is too late to avoid suspension or deposition.


That's unfortunate to hear, Father.

"Winebibbers" are, however, noted in the Scriptures (such as 1 Timothy) and Apostolic Constitutions, among other sources, as relates to impediments to ordination.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2016, 07:05:00 PM by Antonis »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Perry Noble, NewSpring, and alcoholism among church leaders
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2016, 12:16:17 AM »
That's unfortunate to hear, Father.

"Winebibbers" are, however, noted in the Scriptures (such as 1 Timothy) and Apostolic Constitutions, among other sources, as relates to impediments to ordination.

There's no doubt a difference in what it takes to meet the job description and what it takes to be fired ...
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Re: Perry Noble, NewSpring, and alcoholism among church leaders
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2016, 12:26:10 AM »
That's unfortunate to hear, Father.

"Winebibbers" are, however, noted in the Scriptures (such as 1 Timothy) and Apostolic Constitutions, among other sources, as relates to impediments to ordination.

Well, that's a bit of a stretch, just based on the usage of the phrase.

The Greek reads something like, "not much attention to wine."  You don't have to be an alcoholic to have a reputation as a 'hard partier.'  The concept of 'addiction,' one must remember, is very recent.  There is no classical understanding of it as we have now.

So, using the passages you cite are informative on the subject, but not necessarily an absolutely clear guidance, particularly when alcoholism develops later in ministry.  The question arises whether a priest, who develops alcoholism or another addiction while in ministry, is simply shown the curb after years of service.  Most bishops understand the priests can often fall gradually into problem drinking in small increments rather than a sudden event (such as fornication, self-mutilation, or other canonically-sanctioned actions).

Yes, it can lead to specific actions which can and must be dealt with in terms of a Spiritual Court, but problem drinking is often obvious before it becomes the root of a specific canonical act.

So, you have to 'connect the dots' by using the Scriptures and the Canons to inform the decision even when the specific problem isn't referenced.  For example, a priest who gets into financial difficulties because of credit card debt.

You'd be surprised at some things that don't show up in a canonical tradition.  For example, which canons address clergy who purposefully dump the Eucharist into the trash?  Short answer: there is no canon specifically forbidding that act.  However, you can use other canons, in an indirect fashion, to establish a case that he should be deposed by his bishop.

So, it isn't all that easy.  If it was, you'd hear about it.

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Re: Perry Noble, NewSpring, and alcoholism among church leaders
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2016, 09:35:12 AM »
The best sermons I heard were from an inebriated fundamentalist Baptist preacher.  Man, he preached 3 hours straight.
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Re: Perry Noble, NewSpring, and alcoholism among church leaders
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2016, 11:15:55 AM »
The best sermons I heard were from an inebriated fundamentalist Baptist preacher.  Man, he preached 3 hours straight.
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Re: Perry Noble, NewSpring, and alcoholism among church leaders
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2016, 12:39:08 PM »
Is it a western phenomenon? We English (OK, I know I live in Wales, but I came here later in life)... we English have been a race of drunkards since Anglo-Saxon times. I go to Greece every year on holiday, and used to go with my work, and the wine in Greece is so plentiful and so cheap that sometimes they literally give it to you at tavernas: especially if the waiter decides to sit at your table with you, chat, and share your wine for a while; or if you converse with him in his native tongue (probably Albanian, but with the taverna-owner's consent); and we tourists customarily get a free small bottle of raki to enjoy after dinner - or occasionally even lunch! Nonetheless I have not yet noticed drunkenness in Greece, whether it be Crete, Corfu, Epirus, the Peleponnese or wherever else. At Easter (lamb roasted over a fire, of course) some or all of the wine was home-made (that was the Evangelical Church in Iakovou Polila Street, Corfu). Is it a matter of attitude, or cultural baggage? We western Christians have had heavy influence and pressure for teetotalism, from the 1830s till recently (certainly among us Baptists, Methodists &c) - which I think probably came from America originally - yet the city streets reel with drunkards of a weekend evening and night: this thread suggests that the problems sometimes rubs off in various ways on the clergy. The culture re alcohol is different in Greece: I wonder whether they have the same problem (and I simply haven't noticed it despite going there since 1981).
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Re: Perry Noble, NewSpring, and alcoholism among church leaders
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2016, 01:41:27 PM »
The best sermons I heard were from an inebriated fundamentalist Baptist preacher.  Man, he preached 3 hours straight.
He was drunk in the Spirit.

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Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Perry Noble, NewSpring, and alcoholism among church leaders
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2016, 03:18:17 PM »
Is it a western phenomenon? We English (OK, I know I live in Wales, but I came here later in life)... we English have been a race of drunkards since Anglo-Saxon times. I go to Greece every year on holiday, and used to go with my work, and the wine in Greece is so plentiful and so cheap that sometimes they literally give it to you at tavernas: especially if the waiter decides to sit at your table with you, chat, and share your wine for a while; or if you converse with him in his native tongue (probably Albanian, but with the taverna-owner's consent); and we tourists customarily get a free small bottle of raki to enjoy after dinner - or occasionally even lunch! Nonetheless I have not yet noticed drunkenness in Greece, whether it be Crete, Corfu, Epirus, the Peleponnese or wherever else. At Easter (lamb roasted over a fire, of course) some or all of the wine was home-made (that was the Evangelical Church in Iakovou Polila Street, Corfu). Is it a matter of attitude, or cultural baggage? We western Christians have had heavy influence and pressure for teetotalism, from the 1830s till recently (certainly among us Baptists, Methodists &c) - which I think probably came from America originally - yet the city streets reel with drunkards of a weekend evening and night: this thread suggests that the problems sometimes rubs off in various ways on the clergy. The culture re alcohol is different in Greece: I wonder whether they have the same problem (and I simply haven't noticed it despite going there since 1981).

I think there are cultural differences that aggravate the problem.  My casual observance has been that cultures which permit drunkenness tend to get drunkenness.  At the same time, we often have a difficult time discerning 'heavy drinking' from 'alcoholism.'  there is a line, and the line gets crossed when a heavy drinker absolutely cannot stop.

If you never try to stop, you might never know.

When I lived in the UK, there was a lot of heavy drinking, and drinking to excess.  Yet, I would surmise that the actual rates of alcoholism were not as high as one might think.  After all, if every drunk I saw in the street was an alcoholic, I think the country would have collapsed long before.

As an American, I can't tell you how strange it sounded to come up to the bar and ask for "a pint of Scotch."
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Re: Perry Noble, NewSpring, and alcoholism among church leaders
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2016, 03:32:05 PM »
Until very recently, Greece had no formal regulations about drinking age at all. Any Greek over 20 likely joined in with wine and/or beer around the family table before reaching double digit age. Got surprise guests? Just send the kids to the corner shop for a six-pack, no problem. The right to drink is not an age-related achievement, and as such, no big deal. Boozing up is part of social life.

The two big sticking points of the British drinking culture that I can see are binge drinking and solitary drinking. You're a lot more likely to get wasted drunk if you either drink alone (that's what alcoholism is made of) or aim for drowning a teetotal week on Friday night.

On the way to church on Holy Saturday night, I see a lot of people staggering around - at barely 11pm. That simply doesn't happen in Greece... then again, the bars and clubs have only just opened at that hour. ;D
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Re: Perry Noble, NewSpring, and alcoholism among church leaders
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2016, 04:53:01 PM »
At the same time, we often have a difficult time discerning 'heavy drinking' from 'alcoholism.'  there is a line, and the line gets crossed when a heavy drinker absolutely cannot stop.

This is the pragmatic way to define alcoholism. But there's also a school of thought that alcoholism is a personality disorder that manifests itself in a particular way when the sufferer discovers heavy drinking. This is the implicit idea in the proverb, Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic. Some psychologists consider the disorder, if it is one, to be related to aggressive narcissistic disorder.
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Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Perry Noble, NewSpring, and alcoholism among church leaders
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2016, 06:36:15 PM »
At the same time, we often have a difficult time discerning 'heavy drinking' from 'alcoholism.'  there is a line, and the line gets crossed when a heavy drinker absolutely cannot stop.

This is the pragmatic way to define alcoholism. But there's also a school of thought that alcoholism is a personality disorder that manifests itself in a particular way when the sufferer discovers heavy drinking. This is the implicit idea in the proverb, Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic. Some psychologists consider the disorder, if it is one, to be related to aggressive narcissistic disorder.

Alcoholism is not recognized as a Personality Disorder.  As for 'aggressive narcissistic disorder,' I've never heard of it.  Perhaps you are confusing a Narcissistic personality disorder with Passive-aggressive behavior?  Or, are you reading very old literature?  ???
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Re: Perry Noble, NewSpring, and alcoholism among church leaders
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2016, 08:16:27 PM »
Or perhaps my reading extends beyond Wikipedia. At any rate, I didn't say alcoholism is defined as a personality disorder in the DSM-IV, or even say it is established as such by studies or consensus; I said that there are psychologists who think so.

Here's an article on the DSM concept of Narcissistic Personality Disorder, by the way. This little write-up doesn't really discuss it, but while most examples of the Disorder are aggressive, i.e., extroverted, in nature, there are examples that are passive, i.e., introverted, instead. Both would fall under the same diagnostic heading, but that's technicality.
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Re: Perry Noble, NewSpring, and alcoholism among church leaders
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2016, 09:40:26 PM »
Or perhaps my reading extends beyond Wikipedia. At any rate, I didn't say alcoholism is defined as a personality disorder in the DSM-IV, or even say it is established as such by studies or consensus; I said that there are psychologists who think so.

Here's an article on the DSM concept of Narcissistic Personality Disorder, by the way. This little write-up doesn't really discuss it, but while most examples of the Disorder are aggressive, i.e., extroverted, in nature, there are examples that are passive, i.e., introverted, instead. Both would fall under the same diagnostic heading, but that's technicality.

I would be interested to see a citation from the "school" that classifies alcoholism as a Personality Disorder.  That's news to me.

So, where did you get the term "aggressive narcissistic disorder"?  Is this something you made up, or can you cite a source?

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Re: Perry Noble, NewSpring, and alcoholism among church leaders
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2016, 09:48:45 PM »
Or perhaps my reading extends beyond Wikipedia. At any rate, I didn't say alcoholism is defined as a personality disorder in the DSM-IV, or even say it is established as such by studies or consensus; I said that there are psychologists who think so.

Here's an article on the DSM concept of Narcissistic Personality Disorder, by the way. This little write-up doesn't really discuss it, but while most examples of the Disorder are aggressive, i.e., extroverted, in nature, there are examples that are passive, i.e., introverted, instead. Both would fall under the same diagnostic heading, but that's technicality.
Are you really implying that a priest, who likely deals with and counsels people on a regular basis who are struggling with alcohol,  has confined his knowledge of the subject to wikipedia?  At this risk of sounding condescending, perhaps you need a break from the internet for a bit. It doesn't seem to bring out a good side in you.
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Re: Perry Noble, NewSpring, and alcoholism among church leaders
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2016, 11:42:29 PM »
Or perhaps my reading extends beyond Wikipedia. At any rate, I didn't say alcoholism is defined as a personality disorder in the DSM-IV, or even say it is established as such by studies or consensus; I said that there are psychologists who think so.

Here's an article on the DSM concept of Narcissistic Personality Disorder, by the way. This little write-up doesn't really discuss it, but while most examples of the Disorder are aggressive, i.e., extroverted, in nature, there are examples that are passive, i.e., introverted, instead. Both would fall under the same diagnostic heading, but that's technicality.
Are you really implying that a priest, who likely deals with and counsels people on a regular basis who are struggling with alcohol,  has confined his knowledge of the subject to wikipedia?  At this risk of sounding condescending, perhaps you need a break from the internet for a bit. It doesn't seem to bring out a good side in you.

It was a comment on the links in his post. Get some sleep, Trisagion.
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Re: Perry Noble, NewSpring, and alcoholism among church leaders
« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2016, 11:51:35 PM »
Or perhaps my reading extends beyond Wikipedia. At any rate, I didn't say alcoholism is defined as a personality disorder in the DSM-IV, or even say it is established as such by studies or consensus; I said that there are psychologists who think so.

Here's an article on the DSM concept of Narcissistic Personality Disorder, by the way. This little write-up doesn't really discuss it, but while most examples of the Disorder are aggressive, i.e., extroverted, in nature, there are examples that are passive, i.e., introverted, instead. Both would fall under the same diagnostic heading, but that's technicality.
Are you really implying that a priest, who likely deals with and counsels people on a regular basis who are struggling with alcohol,  has confined his knowledge of the subject to wikipedia?  At this risk of sounding condescending, perhaps you need a break from the internet for a bit. It doesn't seem to bring out a good side in you.

It was a comment on the links in his post. Get some sleep, Trisagion.

Did I offend you with the links?   ???  I'm sorry if they hurt your feelings.

I used them just to demonstrate that what I was saying was not pulled out of thin air.  However, I am looking forward to your better citations.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2016, 11:52:09 PM by FatherGiryus »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Perry Noble, NewSpring, and alcoholism among church leaders
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2016, 01:01:30 AM »
Not clear what in my citation was beneath your notice, especially since it deals directly with the DSM. Any DSM-IV or -5 listing will show the same thing.

As for the alcoholism as personality disorder theory, one read experts cited often enough in liberal rags during the Pres. George W. Bush era. However, my main memory of the discussion was quite a long article in Harper's. I could Google the topic, but then so could anybody else.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Perry Noble, NewSpring, and alcoholism among church leaders
« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2016, 01:21:59 AM »
Not clear what in my citation was beneath your notice, especially since it deals directly with the DSM. Any DSM-IV or -5 listing will show the same thing.

As for the alcoholism as personality disorder theory, one read experts cited often enough in liberal rags during the Pres. George W. Bush era. However, my main memory of the discussion was quite a long article in Harper's. I could Google the topic, but then so could anybody else.

No, your citation does not mention alcoholism.  Nor does it mention "aggressive narcissistic disorder".

As for 'liberal rags,' that does not seem like an enthusiastic confirmation of the veracity of the material which you won't cite. If it isn't worth you looking for it, it probably isn't worth me looking for it either.    8)
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Re: Perry Noble, NewSpring, and alcoholism among church leaders
« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2016, 02:25:06 AM »
Did you know that in Texas you're allowed to go over to people's houses? I would think it were suspicious if I never saw anyone or got invited to go anywhere.

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Re: Perry Noble, NewSpring, and alcoholism among church leaders
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2016, 11:52:19 AM »
Not clear what in my citation was beneath your notice, especially since it deals directly with the DSM. Any DSM-IV or -5 listing will show the same thing.

As for the alcoholism as personality disorder theory, one read experts cited often enough in liberal rags during the Pres. George W. Bush era. However, my main memory of the discussion was quite a long article in Harper's. I could Google the topic, but then so could anybody else.

No, your citation does not mention alcoholism.  Nor does it mention "aggressive narcissistic disorder".

As for 'liberal rags,' that does not seem like an enthusiastic confirmation of the veracity of the material which you won't cite. If it isn't worth you looking for it, it probably isn't worth me looking for it either.    8)


You can't give this up, can you? No matter how sophistical and regrettable the posts you must craft to pursue it.

The Harper's essay was not political, and was an in-depth report on alcoholism and its treatments. There is a growing movement among psychologists and psychiatrists to treat alcoholism with anti-psychotics. Take it or leave it -- I don't understand why you can't.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Perry Noble, NewSpring, and alcoholism among church leaders
« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2016, 05:00:36 PM »
Porter, take it with a grain of salt from Semi-Anonymous Internet Strangerman, but I'm with TheTrisagion on this. Your posts in this thread seem rather nasty and don't reflect well on you. Maybe there's some backstory between you and FatherGiryus (or TheTrisagion) that I'm unaware of. Or maybe it would be beneficial for you to ease off for a time. My unsolicited two cents.

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Re: Perry Noble, NewSpring, and alcoholism among church leaders
« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2016, 05:28:12 PM »
Porter, take it with a grain of salt from Semi-Anonymous Internet Strangerman, but I'm with TheTrisagion on this. Your posts in this thread seem rather nasty and don't reflect well on you. Maybe there's some backstory between you and FatherGiryus (or TheTrisagion) that I'm unaware of. Or maybe it would be beneficial for you to ease off for a time. My unsolicited two cents.

Some extraordinarily intuitive souls in this thread.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Perry Noble, NewSpring, and alcoholism among church leaders
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2016, 05:34:25 PM »
Nothing that you yourself haven't admitted in threads over the years. You've said yourself that you have quit oc.net on several occasions for spiritual health. If you aren't interested in someone making a sincere observation though, I'll say no more.  :-\

The term planet earth is an innovation which has arisen in recent centuries with the error of heliocentrism.

If one wants to confess a pure doctrine of Orthodoxy, they should be careful not to refer to the earth as a planet, unlike the current Pope as well as Patriarch Kirill and Patriarch Bartholomew, who regularly speak in error when they refer to our planet earth.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Perry Noble, NewSpring, and alcoholism among church leaders
« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2016, 06:34:26 PM »
I'd invite you prophetic gentlemen to use the handy PM button to the left of my post in order to allow you to return to the topic at hand.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Perry Noble, NewSpring, and alcoholism among church leaders
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2016, 06:50:34 PM »
No need. I have no expectation that it would be any more welcome. Please feel free to carry on.  :-X
The term planet earth is an innovation which has arisen in recent centuries with the error of heliocentrism.

If one wants to confess a pure doctrine of Orthodoxy, they should be careful not to refer to the earth as a planet, unlike the current Pope as well as Patriarch Kirill and Patriarch Bartholomew, who regularly speak in error when they refer to our planet earth.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Perry Noble, NewSpring, and alcoholism among church leaders
« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2016, 07:39:54 PM »
No need. I have no expectation that it would be any more welcome. Please feel free to carry on.  :-X

I'd invite welcome you prophetic gentlemen to use the handy PM button to the left of my post in order to allow you to return to the topic at hand.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Perry Noble, NewSpring, and alcoholism among church leaders
« Reply #31 on: July 17, 2016, 09:11:41 PM »
Not clear what in my citation was beneath your notice, especially since it deals directly with the DSM. Any DSM-IV or -5 listing will show the same thing.

As for the alcoholism as personality disorder theory, one read experts cited often enough in liberal rags during the Pres. George W. Bush era. However, my main memory of the discussion was quite a long article in Harper's. I could Google the topic, but then so could anybody else.

No, your citation does not mention alcoholism.  Nor does it mention "aggressive narcissistic disorder".

As for 'liberal rags,' that does not seem like an enthusiastic confirmation of the veracity of the material which you won't cite. If it isn't worth you looking for it, it probably isn't worth me looking for it either.    8)


You can't give this up, can you? No matter how sophistical and regrettable the posts you must craft to pursue it.

The Harper's essay was not political, and was an in-depth report on alcoholism and its treatments. There is a growing movement among psychologists and psychiatrists to treat alcoholism with anti-psychotics. Take it or leave it -- I don't understand why you can't.

Porter, I was asking a sincere question about where you are getting your information.  It is in conflict with what I have learned over the years.

You also used terminology ("aggressive narcissistic disorder") that I can't find anywhere, and so I wanted to know if you misspoke or is this something that you read somewhere.  Again, you did not answer my question.

If you just want to say stuff and not be asked any questions about what you say, then please let me know that we are not having a discussion and I will not try to have a discussion with you.  There are some posters here who are like that, and that's OK.  I don't try to engage them in a dialog, either because they are not interested or not capable. 

If you don't want to defend it, then just say so. 
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Perry Noble, NewSpring, and alcoholism among church leaders
« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2016, 10:14:47 PM »
And I was sincerely offering a bit of information, which I have both responded to (more than once, since your posts, it seems, couldn't stop gibing) and defended, and explained.

The DSM-5 Table of Contents
Enough of the DSM-IV-TR to clearly show that Narcissitic Personality Disorder is a diagnosis

And a quick search uncovered the following current research of antipsychotics to treat alcoholism:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20631559
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20887583

I'm laying out nothing new here. If people will read the thread, they'll see I mentioned these things before and gave you one online citation before. I am laying out only mainstream, current science.

And for those who just need every dot connected by links to online science:

There are two well-known subtypes of narcissistic personality disorders

I personally would recommend to everyone real reading of books and articles on subjects like this -- it is surprisingly interesting and useful. I tend to read psychoanalytic literature, which is quite a current science but not enshrined by the insurance companies like APA. That may be changing tho, as insurance companies become more and more disgruntled with the too-brief effects of behavioral-cog and the psychoanalytical schools continue to amass more of their own evidence-based literature.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Perry Noble, NewSpring, and alcoholism among church leaders
« Reply #33 on: July 17, 2016, 10:41:15 PM »
And I was sincerely offering a bit of information, which I have both responded to (more than once, since your posts, it seems, couldn't stop gibing) and defended, and explained.

The DSM-5 Table of Contents
Enough of the DSM-IV-TR to clearly show that Narcissitic Personality Disorder is a diagnosis

And a quick search uncovered the following current research of antipsychotics to treat alcoholism:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20631559
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20887583

I'm laying out nothing new here. If people will read the thread, they'll see I mentioned these things before and gave you one online citation before. I am laying out only mainstream, current science.

And for those who just need every dot connected by links to online science:

There are two well-known subtypes of narcissistic personality disorders

I personally would recommend to everyone real reading of books and articles on subjects like this -- it is surprisingly interesting and useful. I tend to read psychoanalytic literature, which is quite a current science but not enshrined by the insurance companies like APA. That may be changing tho, as insurance companies become more and more disgruntled with the too-brief effects of behavioral-cog and the psychoanalytical schools continue to amass more of their own evidence-based literature.

That's interesting. I'm a HAMSter, and one thing that they recommend for alcoholism is marijuana. True story.

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Re: Perry Noble, NewSpring, and alcoholism among church leaders
« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2016, 11:20:12 PM »
And I was sincerely offering a bit of information, which I have both responded to (more than once, since your posts, it seems, couldn't stop gibing) and defended, and explained.

The DSM-5 Table of Contents
Enough of the DSM-IV-TR to clearly show that Narcissitic Personality Disorder is a diagnosis

And a quick search uncovered the following current research of antipsychotics to treat alcoholism:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20631559
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20887583

I'm laying out nothing new here. If people will read the thread, they'll see I mentioned these things before and gave you one online citation before. I am laying out only mainstream, current science.

And for those who just need every dot connected by links to online science:

There are two well-known subtypes of narcissistic personality disorders

I personally would recommend to everyone real reading of books and articles on subjects like this -- it is surprisingly interesting and useful. I tend to read psychoanalytic literature, which is quite a current science but not enshrined by the insurance companies like APA. That may be changing tho, as insurance companies become more and more disgruntled with the too-brief effects of behavioral-cog and the psychoanalytical schools continue to amass more of their own evidence-based literature.

But, Porter, these still don't address my original question:

Alcoholism is not recognized as a Personality Disorder.  As for 'aggressive narcissistic disorder,' I've never heard of it.  Perhaps you are confusing a Narcissistic personality disorder with Passive-aggressive behavior?

None of what you posted establishes what 'aggressive narcissistic disorder' is, nor do they designate alcoholism as a Personality Disorder.

Do you see now what I am asking?
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Perry Noble, NewSpring, and alcoholism among church leaders
« Reply #35 on: July 17, 2016, 11:37:53 PM »
This is a difficulty you'll have to continue to carry in some fashion yourself, if you insist on it. I can't think I could have been more thorough, on an internet forum, after writing a brief paragraph of light commentary that for some reason you found indigestible. I would say I have nothing else to add, but that would be another redundant statement, and I loathe redundant posts almost as much as you seem to relish asking for them.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Perry Noble, NewSpring, and alcoholism among church leaders
« Reply #36 on: July 17, 2016, 11:59:38 PM »
delete
« Last Edit: July 18, 2016, 12:00:00 AM by Antonis »
You sound like a professional who knows what he's talking about.  That's because you are.

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Letter to Diognetus 11.4

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Re: Perry Noble, NewSpring, and alcoholism among church leaders
« Reply #37 on: July 18, 2016, 12:28:01 AM »
This is a difficulty you'll have to continue to carry in some fashion yourself, if you insist on it. I can't think I could have been more thorough, on an internet forum, after writing a brief paragraph of light commentary that for some reason you found indigestible. I would say I have nothing else to add, but that would be another redundant statement, and I loathe redundant posts almost as much as you seem to relish asking for them.

I loath answers to questions I'm not asking.

So, I guess we have a case of "Mutually-Assured Loathing."    ;D
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Perry Noble, NewSpring, and alcoholism among church leaders
« Reply #38 on: July 18, 2016, 12:34:30 AM »
I loath answers to questions I'm not asking.

But, Porter, these still don't address my original question:

Alcoholism is not recognized as a Personality Disorder.  As for 'aggressive narcissistic disorder,' I've never heard of it.  Perhaps you are confusing a Narcissistic personality disorder with Passive-aggressive behavior?

So the answer you've been hunting for is "No"?

So, I guess we have a case of "Mutually-Assured Loathing."    ;D

Speak for yourself. I honestly have no idea what has happened here, so it can't be called "mutual." Altho I'll admit my deep wish that by now we're mutually bored.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Perry Noble, NewSpring, and alcoholism among church leaders
« Reply #39 on: August 17, 2016, 08:17:44 PM »
I think it's unfortunate a Protestant church would just defrock (whatever the word is) a pastor for being an alcoholic.  It seems moralistic and punitive, and therefore misguided.

Brennan Manning struggled with alcoholism his entire life but I don't think that prevented him from being a preacher of grace.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2016, 08:19:13 PM by Daedelus1138 »

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Re: Perry Noble, NewSpring, and alcoholism among church leaders
« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2016, 08:25:39 PM »
I think it's unfortunate a Protestant church would just defrock (whatever the word is) a pastor for being an alcoholic.  It seems moralistic and punitive, and therefore misguided.

It seems protestant.

Horrible bores.
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Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Perry Noble, NewSpring, and alcoholism among church leaders
« Reply #41 on: August 17, 2016, 08:35:41 PM »
It seems protestant.

Horrible bores.

My Lutheran pastor says the problem with Protestants is the equating of holiness with middle class morality and niceness.  I don't think the concept of "holy fool" enters their minds for the most part, except maybe the extreme fringe of evangelicals.

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Re: Perry Noble, NewSpring, and alcoholism among church leaders
« Reply #42 on: August 17, 2016, 08:40:38 PM »
My Lutheran pastor says the problem with Protestants is the equating of holiness with middle class morality and niceness.

Substitute Christians for Protestants and your Lutheran pastor is absolutely right.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2016, 08:42:27 PM by Cyrillic »
That is the land of lost content,          
  I see it shining plain,   
The happy highways where I went   
  And cannot come again.
-A.E. Housman