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Author Topic: Does Joel Osteen Not Know, or Does He Not Care?  (Read 3925 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: October 31, 2011, 08:47:29 PM »

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By now, it is clear that Joel Osteen’s carelessness is deliberate and calculated. This is not the first time that he has encountered the question of Mormonism. Back in 2007, he told Chris Wallace of FOX News that Mormons are indeed Christians:
 
“Well, in my mind they are. Mitt Romney has said that he believes in Christ as his savior, and that’s what I believe, so, you know, I’m not the one to judge the little details of it. So I believe they are.”

The little details of it? Mormonism does not differ from historic biblical Christianity in only the “little details,” and a faithful Mormon would be the first to point this out. Mormonism begins with a plurality of gods, not with the monotheism of the Bible. Jesus Christ is an exalted man — not the incarnate Word. The list of categorical doctrinal differences continues throughout the entire belief system.
 
The very essence of Mormonism is the claim that historic Christianity is fundamentally in error, and that true Christianity did not exist on earth from the time of the Apostles until Joseph Smith.
It's kind of ironic having a Southern Baptist preacher criticize Mormonism for rejecting "historic" Christianity.
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« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2011, 09:06:19 PM »

Isn't Joel Osteen a Prosperity Gospel/Word of Faith preacher?  I recall reading somewhere that the Prosperity Gospel/Word of Faith movement taught the blasphemy that one can become divine in the same way that Christ is.  I also read that this made them more tolerant of Mormonism, since the Mormons supposedly have a similar teaching.  Of course I'm not an expert on these groups and I can't even recall where I read about them. 

Perhaps others with more experience with Osteen's movement can shed light on this.
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« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2011, 09:13:33 PM »

He's on TV quite a bit. I haven't read any of his books. He's known for his zillion-watt smile.
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« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2011, 09:14:49 PM »

He's known for his zillion-watt smile.
That never goes away.
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« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2011, 09:52:58 PM »

it is one thing to not know, but another to mislead thousands by telling them what they want to hear and equating the message of the Gospel with an economic plan , one that looks at poverty as a sign of spiritual inferiority. He that took on the body of a slave, born in a stable lived in the poorest most unpopular town of Nazareth, ate and drunk with the poor , the sick , and sinners, he that walked garbed in a poor man's vestment while he is the one that adorns the universe with glorious beauty, he that will say to us that you have done to one of the least ones you have done for me. He will certainly hold accountable those of us who intentionally twist the message of repentance and purity, into a message of economic prosperity. the spirit of the time?! indeed it is! may the Lord protect his people from such satanic deceit. Lord have mercy!
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« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2011, 10:37:25 PM »

Watching Osteen every now and then is one of my guilty pleasures...  Kiss
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« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2011, 10:56:49 PM »

Watching Osteen every now and then is one of my guilty pleasures...  Kiss
As a life coach I think he has some really good things to say. But when delved into religion, forget it.

I think Osteen is trying not to be controversial and open up some dialouge of whatever faith, I don't know but of course he is wrong about Mormonism.

I'm sure once evangelicals get ahold of this, they will patronize him until he changes his view.

I wonder how he is outside of the church environment. I'd like to grab a few beers with him to be honest.
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« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2011, 12:19:36 AM »

I always found him creepy.  Then again, I was not brought up in American 'Christianity' so all of that genre feels very weird.

Watching Osteen every now and then is one of my guilty pleasures...  Kiss
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« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2011, 12:28:49 AM »

Watching Osteen every now and then is one of my guilty pleasures...  Kiss

I much prefer Jack Van Impe.  Wink
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« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2011, 01:22:48 AM »

Isn't Joel Osteen a Prosperity Gospel/Word of Faith preacher?  I recall reading somewhere that the Prosperity Gospel/Word of Faith movement taught the blasphemy that one can become divine in the same way that Christ is.  I also read that this made them more tolerant of Mormonism, since the Mormons supposedly have a similar teaching.  Of course I'm not an expert on these groups and I can't even recall where I read about them. 

Perhaps others with more experience with Osteen's movement can shed light on this.
The Word of Faith teaches that all are already gods, or that god is a man, however you want to put it, yes. Furthermore, they say God's power only derives from His own ability to "speak in faith," so the main reward of salvation seems to be realizing our own omnipotence.
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« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2011, 07:57:53 AM »

Seriously, word faith or whatever they call it is truly damaging. I knew it was time to hightail it out of my church when people told me that I wasn't praying hard enough or faithfully enough to be healed from my illness. I had Bible verses taped to my door that I would repeat over and over again and still, God did nothing.

What's worse is that a woman with MS is going through the same thing. Sad She has been teetering on the brink of death for a few years now, and she's convinced that it's because she doesn't have enough faith to believe she's healed.

Sometimes I can't even think that these people are of God. I know that's a strong accusation, but their blanket condemnation of poor and ill people who aren't healed or brought into prosperity is disgusting.
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« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2011, 08:52:41 AM »

Seriously, word faith or whatever they call it is truly damaging. I knew it was time to hightail it out of my church when people told me that I wasn't praying hard enough or faithfully enough to be healed from my illness. I had Bible verses taped to my door that I would repeat over and over again and still, God did nothing.

What's worse is that a woman with MS is going through the same thing. Sad She has been teetering on the brink of death for a few years now, and she's convinced that it's because she doesn't have enough faith to believe she's healed.

Sometimes I can't even think that these people are of God. I know that's a strong accusation, but their blanket condemnation of poor and ill people who aren't healed or brought into prosperity is disgusting.
How do people like this explain the fact that most everyone, eventually, dies? Lack of faith produces death?
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« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2011, 03:26:48 PM »



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« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2011, 07:26:01 PM »

Seriously, word faith or whatever they call it is truly damaging. I knew it was time to hightail it out of my church when people told me that I wasn't praying hard enough or faithfully enough to be healed from my illness. I had Bible verses taped to my door that I would repeat over and over again and still, God did nothing.

What's worse is that a woman with MS is going through the same thing. Sad She has been teetering on the brink of death for a few years now, and she's convinced that it's because she doesn't have enough faith to believe she's healed.

Sometimes I can't even think that these people are of God. I know that's a strong accusation, but their blanket condemnation of poor and ill people who aren't healed or brought into prosperity is disgusting.
How do people like this explain the fact that most everyone, eventually, dies? Lack of faith produces death?
There is a substratum known as the Manifest Sons of God which claims just that and that believers are called to be eschatological, deathless supermen.

More mild WOFs offer weak sounding appeals to God not letting us cheat death at this time IIRC.
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« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2011, 10:27:59 PM »

Isn't Joel Osteen a Prosperity Gospel/Word of Faith preacher?  I recall reading somewhere that the Prosperity Gospel/Word of Faith movement taught the blasphemy that one can become divine in the same way that Christ is.  I also read that this made them more tolerant of Mormonism, since the Mormons supposedly have a similar teaching.  Of course I'm not an expert on these groups and I can't even recall where I read about them. 

Perhaps others with more experience with Osteen's movement can shed light on this.
The Word of Faith teaches that all are already gods, or that god is a man, however you want to put it, yes. Furthermore, they say God's power only derives from His own ability to "speak in faith," so the main reward of salvation seems to be realizing our own omnipotence.

Volnutt, where did you get that info.? Not challenging you just never heard that before.
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« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2011, 11:48:07 PM »

Isn't Joel Osteen a Prosperity Gospel/Word of Faith preacher?  I recall reading somewhere that the Prosperity Gospel/Word of Faith movement taught the blasphemy that one can become divine in the same way that Christ is.  I also read that this made them more tolerant of Mormonism, since the Mormons supposedly have a similar teaching.  Of course I'm not an expert on these groups and I can't even recall where I read about them. 

Perhaps others with more experience with Osteen's movement can shed light on this.
The Word of Faith teaches that all are already gods, or that god is a man, however you want to put it, yes. Furthermore, they say God's power only derives from His own ability to "speak in faith," so the main reward of salvation seems to be realizing our own omnipotence.

Volnutt, where did you get that info.? Not challenging you just never heard that before.

me neither, i know a couple woff'ers...
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« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2011, 11:51:49 PM »

apologeticsindex.net is my main resource, Personal Freedom Outreach, the Deception in the Church site by Bob and Jackie Alnor. Various other discernment sites.

I don't think all wof-ers believe these things but many of the big guns such as Ken Copeland, Earl Paulk, and Creflo Dollar have made statements to this effect.
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« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2011, 12:19:47 AM »

Look at the quotes in this site:

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/wfteachings.html

It's all disturbing, but especially objectionable are the quotes in the "Other Word-Faith Teachings!" section.  Here are a few:

Quote
Kenneth Copeland : "God spoke Adam into existence in authority with words (Gen. 1:26,28). These words struck Adam's body in the face. His body and God were exactly the same size." (Holy Bible, Kenneth Copeland Reference Edition [Fort Worth, TX: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1991], 45, emphasis in original.)

Kenneth Copeland : "God's reason for creating Adam was His desire to reproduce Himself. I mean a reproduction of Himself, and in the Garden of Eden He did just that. He was not a little like God. He was not almost like God. He was not subordinate to God even. . . . Adam is as much like God as you could get, just the same as Jesus. . . . Adam, in the Garden of Eden, was God manifested in the flesh." ("Following the Faith of Abraham I," side 1.)

Kenneth E. Hagin : "Originally, God made the earth and the fullness thereof, giving Adam dominion over all the works of His hands. In other words, Adam was the god of this world." (The Believer's Authority, 2d ed. [Tulsa, OK: Kenneth Hagin Ministries, 1991], 19.)

Frederick K.C. Price : "God can't do anything in this earth realm except what we, the body of Christ, allow Him to do. Now that statement is so--that's so--that's so foreign and so contrary to tradition that, like I said, if they could get their hands on me right now most evangelicals would burn me at the stake and dismember me and feed me to the crocodiles, because they'll consider that statement to be just heresy." ("Ever Increasing Faith" program on TBN [1 May 1992], audiotape #PR11.) Cf. chapter 6, 85.

There are other quotes just as disturbing.

I don't know much about Mormonism, but don't they have a similar teaching about Adam?

Here is an article about Word of Faith Theology and Mormonism:

http://www.watchman.org/reltop/unbiblcl.htm

Now I don't watch Joel Osteen, so I have no idea if he personally has taught these things.  But if he comes from this particular tradition, one can see how he would not be that scandalized by Mormonism.
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« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2011, 05:50:16 AM »

I knew there were nut jobs with these kind of doctrines forming... glad I used the escape clause and left my Protestant days behind (let us pray that this never makes its way any where near Orthodoxy)
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« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2011, 09:03:01 AM »

My priest doesn't even give a sermon on most days. If he does, it's at the end of the liturgy, after the blessings. I'm glad we have that kind of safety barrier, so to speak, because there's no way I can think of the Orthodox liturgy turning into a two-hour speech on how God will give you lots of money.  Smiley
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« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2011, 09:10:25 AM »

My priest doesn't even give a sermon on most days. If he does, it's at the end of the liturgy, after the blessings. I'm glad we have that kind of safety barrier, so to speak, because there's no way I can think of the Orthodox liturgy turning into a two-hour speech on how God will give you lots of money.  Smiley
God won't give me money? Then why go to church?
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« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2011, 09:16:44 AM »

Um, the Real Presence? Learning from the Scriptures? Lots and lots of good singing?

There's even cookies at the coffee hour.  Wink
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« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2011, 09:16:50 AM »

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Kenneth Copeland : "God's reason for creating Adam was His desire to reproduce Himself. I mean a reproduction of Himself, and in the Garden of Eden He did just that. He was not a little like God. He was not almost like God. He was not subordinate to God even. . . . Adam is as much like God as you could get, just the same as Jesus. . . . Adam, in the Garden of Eden, was God manifested in the flesh." ("Following the Faith of Abraham I," side 1.)

Kenneth E. Hagin : "Originally, God made the earth and the fullness thereof, giving Adam dominion over all the works of His hands. In other words, Adam was the god of this world." (The Believer's Authority, 2d ed. [Tulsa, OK: Kenneth Hagin Ministries, 1991], 19.)

That's an interesting little nugget. We're all little fallen Jesuses.



I don't know much about Mormonism, but don't they have a similar teaching about Adam?

Not in that respect, but similar.

In Mormonism we are literally embryo gods. So that "we are made in His image", means that we are literally His children. We are born as spirit children first, and then given bodies to develop. If we are able, through our own strength foremost, to be holy, then we are worthy of being exalted to Godhood. Marriage that is blessed in the temple is eternal for the purpose of making your own spirit children when you attain exalted status (your children on Earth actually aren't yours, they are the Heavenly Father's).
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« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2011, 09:47:36 AM »

I always found him creepy.  Then again, I was not brought up in American 'Christianity' so all of that genre feels very weird.

Watching Osteen every now and then is one of my guilty pleasures...  Kiss

ditto
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« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2011, 08:13:58 AM »

apologeticsindex.net is my main resource, Personal Freedom Outreach, the Deception in the Church site by Bob and Jackie Alnor. Various other discernment sites.

I don't think all wof-ers believe these things but many of the big guns such as Ken Copeland, Earl Paulk, and Creflo Dollar have made statements to this effect.

Thanks, I appreciate that.
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« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2011, 10:57:44 PM »

No problem  Smiley
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« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2011, 01:49:25 AM »

Neither, he truely believes what he says which is the truely tragic part.

Taking the commandment of not judging so far that it becomes impossible to contradict anyone who has the wrong viewpoint.
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« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2011, 02:24:23 AM »

Seriously, word faith or whatever they call it is truly damaging. I knew it was time to hightail it out of my church when people told me that I wasn't praying hard enough or faithfully enough to be healed from my illness. I had Bible verses taped to my door that I would repeat over and over again and still, God did nothing.

What's worse is that a woman with MS is going through the same thing. Sad She has been teetering on the brink of death for a few years now, and she's convinced that it's because she doesn't have enough faith to believe she's healed.

Sometimes I can't even think that these people are of God. I know that's a strong accusation, but their blanket condemnation of poor and ill people who aren't healed or brought into prosperity is disgusting.
  All too true.  My wife's uncles were ticked because a long time ago their Mom got ill.  All her Church could do was tell her that she did not have enough faith, so she gave a ton of her stuff to the Church and passed away anyway.  After something like that, I don't blame them.
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« Reply #28 on: November 04, 2011, 11:14:31 AM »

I know Joel's wife has a habit of blowing her top when on planes when she's not treated a special way.


PP
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« Reply #29 on: November 04, 2011, 11:21:01 AM »

I know Joel's wife has a habit of blowing her top when on planes when she's not treated a special way.


PP

how did you come about this knowledge?
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« Reply #30 on: November 04, 2011, 11:27:09 AM »

I know Joel's wife has a habit of blowing her top when on planes when she's not treated a special way.


PP

how did you come about this knowledge?
http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=5524479&page=1

Quote
Can a crankiness land you in court? The case of Sandra Brown v. Victoria Osteen is the story of a chance encounter on an airplane that turned into a nasty legal battle.

Osteen is the wife of popular self-help author and television minister Joel Osteen, who heads the Lakewood Church, Houston's largest congregation. Brown is a flight attendant for Continental Airlines.

Osteen and her family were on Brown's flight from Houston to Vail, Colo., two years ago when, according to court documents, witnesses said Osteen became upset about a spill on the armrest of her first-class seat
There's another one somewhere, I gotta find it though.


PP
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« Reply #31 on: November 04, 2011, 11:43:49 PM »

I know Joel's wife has a habit of blowing her top when on planes when she's not treated a special way.


PP

how did you come about this knowledge?
http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=5524479&page=1

Quote
Can a crankiness land you in court? The case of Sandra Brown v. Victoria Osteen is the story of a chance encounter on an airplane that turned into a nasty legal battle.

Osteen is the wife of popular self-help author and television minister Joel Osteen, who heads the Lakewood Church, Houston's largest congregation. Brown is a flight attendant for Continental Airlines.

Osteen and her family were on Brown's flight from Houston to Vail, Colo., two years ago when, according to court documents, witnesses said Osteen became upset about a spill on the armrest of her first-class seat
There's another one somewhere, I gotta find it though.


PP

Oh, I thought you might have been on the flight with her or something.
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« Reply #32 on: November 07, 2011, 05:50:11 PM »

I know Joel's wife has a habit of blowing her top when on planes when she's not treated a special way.


PP

how did you come about this knowledge?
http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=5524479&page=1

Quote
Can a crankiness land you in court? The case of Sandra Brown v. Victoria Osteen is the story of a chance encounter on an airplane that turned into a nasty legal battle.

Osteen is the wife of popular self-help author and television minister Joel Osteen, who heads the Lakewood Church, Houston's largest congregation. Brown is a flight attendant for Continental Airlines.

Osteen and her family were on Brown's flight from Houston to Vail, Colo., two years ago when, according to court documents, witnesses said Osteen became upset about a spill on the armrest of her first-class seat
There's another one somewhere, I gotta find it though.


PP

Oh, I thought you might have been on the flight with her or something.

heh, Im too broke to fly Wink


PP
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« Reply #33 on: November 16, 2011, 06:40:15 AM »

I don't think Joel Osteen knows a whole lot. I watched his church broadcast one time, and he was reading from Exodus or Ecclesiastes, I'm not sure. But the verse was completely changed from the one in my Bible. It said something about money in his version, but wasn't even close to that in mine.
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« Reply #34 on: May 01, 2012, 12:18:22 PM »

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A sellout crowd craving a hopeful, positive God that “wants to supersize” joy turned a Nationals Park sunset into an unusual Sunday church service led by Joel Osteen, pastor of the country’s largest church.

The “Night of Hope” service led by the Texas celeb-evangelist was a blend of worship, musical performance and the beaming encouragement that has made Osteen one of the most-watched American spiritual figures today. The Sunday show was rescheduled from the night before because of rain, but the ballpark was largely filled. It was the biggest faith event since Pope Benedict XVI’s 2008 visit.
....
“You know when restaurants ask you whether you’d like to supersize it? That’s what God’s like. He wants to supersize it. He wants to supersize your joy,” Osteen told the roaring crowd.
....
“Everyone in our house loves him despite differences of perspective,” said Wayna Wondwossen, a musician from Bowie who came with her 2-year-old daughter, her mother and husband. Wondwossen was raised Ethio­pian Orthodox and her husband a Catholic, but the family attends a “metaphysical Christian church,” she said.

“He talks about the fruit of spirituality. Whatever you’re hoping to gain from your faith, he inspires you about what’s at the finish line,” she said.
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« Reply #35 on: May 01, 2012, 12:43:11 PM »

Everyone in our house loves him despite differences of perspective,” said Wayna Wondwossen, a musician from Bowie who came with her 2-year-old daughter, her mother and husband. Wondwossen was raised Ethio­pian Orthodox and her husband a Catholic, but the family attends a “metaphysical Christian church,” she said.

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« Reply #36 on: May 01, 2012, 12:55:16 PM »

Everyone in our house loves him despite differences of perspective,” said Wayna Wondwossen, a musician from Bowie who came with her 2-year-old daughter, her mother and husband. Wondwossen was raised Ethio­pian Orthodox and her husband a Catholic, but the family attends a “metaphysical Christian church,” she said.



As far as Osteen, now we're talking about real heretics... Seriously though, a good piece on one of his recent self-help books.

http://joeljmiller.com/the-insufferable-joel-osteen/
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« Reply #37 on: May 01, 2012, 01:05:20 PM »

Joel Osteen always gets his theology and anything even remotely related to religion wrong. I think that perhaps his worst message is that God will grant us prosperity and wealth even though the Savior Himself was homeless, had one garment and preached for us to not lay up treasures but to give to the poor and blessed the poor. He is just putting a horrible yoke around the necks of the less fortunate, making them feel as if they are faithless or evil just because they do not have abundant wealth like Joel. Now, on the topic of Mormonism, I always use the same argument against them and so far they have never given me a satisfactory answer. Mormons claim that the Church fell into heresy and that Satan pretty much had dominion over it until Joseph Smith came to the rescue in the 19th century, I usually respond to this by asking them if whether they think that Jesus was a liar or is weaker than the Devil, because in the Gospel of Matthew He proclaims that He would never let the gates of Hades prevail against the Church. There is no way to reconcile the Mormon Great Apostasy with Jesus' own words. If you accept at any moment that Satan had victory over the Church, then Jesus was either a liar or Satan beat Him.
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« Reply #38 on: May 01, 2012, 02:33:55 PM »

Joel Osteen always gets his theology and anything even remotely related to religion wrong. I think that perhaps his worst message is that God will grant us prosperity and wealth even though the Savior Himself was homeless, had one garment and preached for us to not lay up treasures but to give to the poor and blessed the poor. He is just putting a horrible yoke around the necks of the less fortunate, making them feel as if they are faithless or evil just because they do not have abundant wealth like Joel. Now, on the topic of Mormonism, I always use the same argument against them and so far they have never given me a satisfactory answer. Mormons claim that the Church fell into heresy and that Satan pretty much had dominion over it until Joseph Smith came to the rescue in the 19th century, I usually respond to this by asking them if whether they think that Jesus was a liar or is weaker than the Devil, because in the Gospel of Matthew He proclaims that He would never let the gates of Hades prevail against the Church. There is no way to reconcile the Mormon Great Apostasy with Jesus' own words. If you accept at any moment that Satan had victory over the Church, then Jesus was either a liar or Satan beat Him.

Sort of the same argument a Muslim would make?  I doubt, even for the most expedient of political causes, Osteen and his ilk would make an equivalency argument accepting of a Muslim running for President as a Republican or Democrat for that matter.

The whole 'point' that Osteen tries to make is absurd.

If either Presidential candidate is a good and moral man, and for the sake of argument I will assume that both the incumbent and Gov. Romney are such, I don't much care if Romney's Mormonism is viewed by Evangelicals as being just another 'flavor' of Christian or if the same Evangelicals doubt the President's statement of faith.

If would be President is neither good, nor moral, than I wouldn't care what brand of Christianity  or whatever he supposedly professed.

Isn't it odd that fifty or so years ago the grandparents of people like Osteen thought that world would come to an end and that the anti-Christ would rule upon the election of a Roman Catholic president?
« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 02:34:07 PM by podkarpatska » Logged
Tags: Prosperity Gospel heresy Mormonism Joel Osteen 
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