Author Topic: A Baby Step  (Read 2408 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Minnesotan

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,329
  • Milo Thatch is the ONLY Milo for me. #FreeAtlantis
A Baby Step
« on: February 09, 2015, 02:09:39 AM »
So anyway, my parents' megachurch had a substitute pastor yesterday and he said some things that were more, um, "out there" than usual. Specifically, he was promoting a far more explicitly Calvinist theology than is usual for this particular congregation. He's in his 20s, too, and dressed like a stereotypical YRR hipster-type youth pastor (basically he looked like Mark Driscoll, without the swearing).

This particular church belongs to a denomination that does not officially endorse Calvinism, but has individual congregations everywhere on the spectrum. Historically it's been more of a Billy Graham-type, ecumenical sort of megachurch evangelicalism, rather than the newer Calvinist breed.

This guy was talking about his time in a Reformed seminary, and was mentioning John Knox. He described Knox as a "former Roman Catholic priest who became a Christian after hearing a Protestant preacher speak". He talked about how "the Roman Catholic Queen Mary....was persecuting Christians"*. He said Christianity begins when you "hear the Word being preached" and respond by understanding and believing. He kept talking over and over again about inerrancy, inerrancy, inerrancy. He mentioned predestination (although not double predestination, thank God!) He never mentioned baptism or communion at all. He acted as though the Bible was written directly to us in the present, so we can read and understand it by ourselves (basically nuda scriptura). He said that expository preaching is an absolute must, and must be the center of our worship, etc.

What's ironic is that just prior to the sermon, they had the worship band sing "This I Believe (The Creed)" by Hillsong, which is based on the Nicene Creed. It's ironic for two reasons: number one, neo-Calvinists generally hate Hillsong and everything it stands for, and number two, the lines "I believe in the Saints' Communion / And in Your holy Church" don't really jibe well with either Hillsong's own theology or that of the YRR. How can you believe in the communion of saints if you don't honor them, and you believe as John Calvin did that only God knows who "the elect" are? You can't be in communion with the saints if you don't know who they are.

The Catholic-bashing was a major surprise, because the previous senior pastor never talked like that (in fact, he jokingly once described Minneapolis as "our Vatican" because the headquarters of the denomination is here). It seems like, practically overnight, there's been a sea change in the leadership, and Billy Graham and C. S. Lewis are out and R. C. Sproul and John MacArthur are in. I saw it coming for a while, since every so often someone would quote John Piper or use YRR-sounding language, but only now does it seem to have kicked into high gear. Really high gear. The recent retirement of the former senior pastor (he has no permanent replacement yet) was probably a factor.

Basically, although this pastor didn't explicitly say so, it sounded like he was explicitly trying to distance himself as far as possible from Catholicism and Orthodoxy, by emphasizing precisely those doctrines which Protestantism disagrees with them on (while ignoring those areas where they agree, like the Trinity). This doesn't seem to be an accident; many YRR-types believe that a second "great apostasy" occurred after the Reformation during which the Protestant churches essentially "went medieval" and became too much like Catholicism, and thus a "second Reformation" will be necessary to restore the true gospel of grace. These preachers see themselves in an activist role, as the vanguard of that movement, and Roger E. Olson (an Arminian) has criticized their tendency to infiltrate the leadership of other, non-Calvinist churches in an attempt to "Reform" them. Many of them have very mixed feelings about Lewis (they only admire him because he was a smart guy and an apologist who took aim at the skeptics, but they think he "got the atonement wrong" because of his close-to-Orthodox beliefs). And they view John Wesley as practically a villain.

I absolutely love this Robert Araraki article. It gives an explanation of how, in Protestant circles, the prevailing ideas of what constitutes "sound doctrine" always seem to be in a state of flux. Several decades ago, Calvinism was practically unheard of but premillennialism and Zionism were seen as a "gospel issue" and a litmus test for evangelical orthodoxy. Premillennialism even wormed its way into many denominations' statements of faith. Now, many younger pastors no longer believe in it, but five-point Calvinism has been the "gospel issue" du jour. Billy Graham was considered a conservative evangelical at one point, now he's vilified as a dangerous ecumenist by many Calvinists in the SBC who don't like the fact that he refused to sheep steal from Catholics and Orthodox. These shifts of opinion happen and they happen fast, just like in politics.

So why is the title of this thread "a baby step"? Simple; watching this sermon kind of shocked me into action. I didn't want my parents to get brainwashed, since the longer they listened to this stuff, the more resistant they might become to me once I expressed other views. I told my mom over the phone later that day that I had some misgivings about what this pastor said. I mentioned that "when you've learned about critical thinking and theology in college like I have, this kind of thing starts happening to you--you don't just take what people say at face value". She was very understanding and even complimented me for still retaining what I learned in school and applying it in my daily life. She doesn't know why I disagree with this pastor yet (although we both agreed that we'd talk in more detail later). But now she does know that I'm not 100% on board with everything the people at her church do and say, and that I have my own views. Most of all, the fact that her reaction was understanding and supportive, not judgmental, is something that makes me feel a lot better! There's always a first step for everything. Now I know that at least my mom (not sure about my dad) will be open to what I have to say and that I probably won't need to keep secrets from her.

I'm sure there have to be other folks at my parents' church who aren't on board with the Calvinizing trend, or who at least could be persuaded to see things from my perspective. Many of the YRR share a desire to move away from subjective emotionalism back to a more historical form of Christianity. Where I would disagree with them, of course, is that I would see Fr. Peter Gillquist and his community as the best role model to follow, rather than trying to achieve a "second reformation" by replacing 19th/20th century fundamentalism with the 16th century version.




*Of course, when you hear someone like that bash Catholicism or imply that Catholics aren't Christians, you can be sure they feel the exact same way about the Orthodox, since from the perspective of low-churchers, there's no difference between the two.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 02:16:48 AM by Minnesotan »
I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,360
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: A Baby Step
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2015, 01:28:52 PM »
What's YRR?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline genesisone

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,850
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antioch
Re: A Baby Step
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2015, 02:29:25 PM »
YYR = Young Restless Reformed (I googled it  :))

Offline NanaDeborah

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 420
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: A Baby Step
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2015, 04:04:56 PM »
Wow, I want to stay tuned to future developments in this situation. Do you still live at home, and if so have your parents been opposed to you finding your own church?
Thy Bridal Chamber, I see adorned, O my Savior, and have no wedding garment that I may enter.  Enlighten the vesture of my soul, O Giver of Light, and save me.

Offline genesisone

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,850
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antioch
Re: A Baby Step
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2015, 04:36:23 PM »
YYR = Young Restless Reformed (I googled it  :))
Oop! Yes I see my typo - but too late to edit  :D :(.

Offline Minnesotan

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,329
  • Milo Thatch is the ONLY Milo for me. #FreeAtlantis
Re: A Baby Step
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2015, 04:55:55 PM »
Wow, I want to stay tuned to future developments in this situation. Do you still live at home, and if so have your parents been opposed to you finding your own church?

No, I live in my own apartment, but I can't drive, so my parents drive me most places (including to their church on Sunday mornings). They're not "opposed"; rather up until this point they just didn't know that I had misgivings about their church, because I was too shy to tell them  :-*. I'm generally quite introverted (I have Asperger's syndrome and have something of a type D personality) so disclosing my feelings to other people is generally a challenge.

I feel much better now that I had that talk with her yesterday, though. The fact that my mom now knows that I have my own views that don't align with the pastor's, and she's OK with that, is very encouraging.

I think she'd be opposed to me making any rash decisions, of course, but wouldn't be opposed to me exploring other churches and taking it slow, which is exactly what I plan to start doing from now on. At the same time I also plan on writing an "open letter" to the congregation at my parents' church, a remonstrance of sorts, objecting to the recent moves toward neo-fundamentalism and Calvinism. The way it seems to be is that the ordinary congregants are like frogs in a pot on the stove, and even though the Calvinist heat is being steadily turned up, the frogs aren't yet aware of what's going on.

I'd basically argue that while moving to a more historic form of Christianity is a good idea, Calvinism is the wrong destination and the right destination would be to emulate the model of groups like Fr. Gillquist's (I. e., gradually become more liturgical, patristic, creedal, sacramental and early church-like, with the end goal of being received into communion with one of the ancient churches). I've read enough of Fr. Robert Araraki's work that I think I can write a pretty good apologetic/polemic for why Calvinism is not the faith of the early church or the New Testament, and Orthodoxy (or something similar to it) is. Since they come from an evangelical background I'd focus especially on biblical arguments.

I'd at least like to let them know that they have another option, so they don't end up just swallowing the Calvinist pill by default without even realizing that's what they're being force-fed.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 04:56:41 PM by Minnesotan »
I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

Offline juliogb

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 275
Re: A Baby Step
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2015, 08:16:05 AM »
Here in Brazil, neo-calvinism is still a small trend among churches, so, these YRR type guys are more common in internet, some of them are the most agressive, fanatical and unpolite ''apologists'' I ever met, but it seems to me that they don't believe in their own words, they say they believe in fatal predestination but they waste a lot of time in facebook discussion groups and blogs proselitising their fatalistic views. Some years ago Paul Washer and John Piper were trendy among presbyterians. Calvinism is not that trendy among baptists, thank God, reading material about calvinist baptist is quite frightening.

Offline WPM

  • Revolutionary Writer
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,694
Re: A Baby Step
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2015, 09:25:29 AM »
Went and found St. Peter's Western Rite church. Also found St. Barbara's EO church.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2015, 09:26:07 AM by WPM »

Offline Rhinosaur

  • Homo Vivius
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 884
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodoxy
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
Re: A Baby Step
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2015, 04:29:42 PM »
I imagine that in alot of these megachurches, most people don't agree with with the core precepts of neo-Calvinism.  They may believe in "once saved, always saved," but not the idea that God hates some people by default.

Offline wgw

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,564
  • This icon is of St. Athansius.
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: A Baby Step
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2015, 04:34:36 PM »
I am very thankful that my mother and I were of one accord and supported by my beloved father in becoming Orthodox.  We were received together, and have attended most services together.  She had wanted to make the switch since the 1970s and I simce 2001; it just took the right conditions to cause us to act in unity on our desires.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline maneki_neko

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 35
  • Faith: Inquirer Wannabe
  • Jurisdiction: leaving Evangelical Protestantism
Re: A Baby Step
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2016, 06:06:18 AM »
It seems like, practically overnight, there's been a sea change in the leadership, and Billy Graham and C. S. Lewis are out and R. C. Sproul and John MacArthur are in.

Wow, I feel like a light bulb just went off. My dad has always been very staunchly "Bible Believing" (whatever that means) and a huge fan of MacArthur. In fact, we attended his church for a few years before moving and his study Bible was the preferred version in our home.

I've been either on opposite coasts from my dad or overseas for the last 3+ years, so just this past year I've been picking up on his strong (sudden?) switch to R.C. Sproul and devouring everything hardcore Calvinist. I was honestly getting worried. I still am worried, but it seems like there's some bigger trend going on. Anyway, when I tried to broach the subject of interest in Eastern Orthodoxy, he said he knows everything he needs to know and sent me a link where R.C. and his panel "addresses" the topic of the EO Church. I found him and his panel extremely obnoxious, arrogant, and willfully ignorant. It really worries me that this is what he's filling his head with.

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 40,673
Re: A Baby Step
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2016, 10:11:26 AM »
It seems like, practically overnight, there's been a sea change in the leadership, and Billy Graham and C. S. Lewis are out and R. C. Sproul and John MacArthur are in.

Wow, I feel like a light bulb just went off. My dad has always been very staunchly "Bible Believing" (whatever that means) and a huge fan of MacArthur. In fact, we attended his church for a few years before moving and his study Bible was the preferred version in our home.

I've been either on opposite coasts from my dad or overseas for the last 3+ years, so just this past year I've been picking up on his strong (sudden?) switch to R.C. Sproul and devouring everything hardcore Calvinist. I was honestly getting worried. I still am worried, but it seems like there's some bigger trend going on. Anyway, when I tried to broach the subject of interest in Eastern Orthodoxy, he said he knows everything he needs to know and sent me a link where R.C. and his panel "addresses" the topic of the EO Church. I found him and his panel extremely obnoxious, arrogant, and willfully ignorant. It really worries me that this is what he's filling his head with.
I'm curious, can you PM me the link?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline scamandrius

  • Pray for our next president
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,774
  • Faith: Greek Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: DOWAMA of AANA
Re: A Baby Step
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2016, 10:43:53 AM »
I told my mom over the phone later that day that I had some misgivings about what this pastor said. I mentioned that "when you've learned about critical thinking and theology in college like I have, this kind of thing starts happening to you--you don't just take what people say at face value".

I don't think they teach critical thinking at college anymore.

*Of course, when you hear someone like that bash Catholicism or imply that Catholics aren't Christians, you can be sure they feel the exact same way about the Orthodox, since from the perspective of low-churchers, there's no difference between the two.

Not necessarily.  I know plenty of "low-churchers" as you call them who have grave misgivings about Orthodoxy in her doctrine and practice but don't "bash" us like they do with Rome.

Offline RaphaCam

  • Holy Martyr Mercurius
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,553
  • Please pray for my family and for myself
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Exarchate of Gotham City
Re: A Baby Step
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2016, 11:06:56 AM »
"He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty." (Psalm 90:1)

Check my blog "Em Espírito e em Verdade" (in Portuguese). Last article: Como posso lidar com minha condição pecadora?

Offline maneki_neko

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 35
  • Faith: Inquirer Wannabe
  • Jurisdiction: leaving Evangelical Protestantism
Re: A Baby Step
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2016, 09:06:11 AM »
I PMed the link; for anyone else curious this was the bit that my dad recommended I hear starting at the 50:30 mark.
http://www.ligonier.org/learn/conferences/orlando_2004_national_conference/questions-and-answers-2-3919/

Offline Eruvande

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 384
  • Faith: Anglican
  • Jurisdiction: Worcestershire
Re: A Baby Step
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2016, 09:23:50 AM »
Yeah, that actually helps me immensely. Seeing men in whom I put great store at one time being so dismissive of something they clearly don't understand is sobering. Not that i understand a lot myself. But I know enough not to openly mock something I don't get.
Clumsily walking a narrow path and getting most of it wrong, but I'm still walking...

Offline maneki_neko

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 35
  • Faith: Inquirer Wannabe
  • Jurisdiction: leaving Evangelical Protestantism
Re: A Baby Step
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2016, 09:44:12 AM »
Yeah, that actually helps me immensely. Seeing men in whom I put great store at one time being so dismissive of something they clearly don't understand is sobering. Not that i understand a lot myself. But I know enough not to openly mock something I don't get.

Yes, this is what I found particularly disturbing. It's shocking to me that he's held as some kind of theological role model and no one considers it a problem that he is basically mocking other believers.

Offline Onesimus

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 433
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: A Baby Step
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2016, 10:01:14 AM »
'Knowledge puffeth up."

Offline Minnesotan

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,329
  • Milo Thatch is the ONLY Milo for me. #FreeAtlantis
Re: A Baby Step
« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2016, 02:08:25 AM »
By the way, I'd like to update you guys on my situation again.

I'm still in the same living situation (apartment with a roommate, don't drive since I'm on the autism spectrum, etc). My parents no longer drive me to their church because I said I wanted to become more independent, and this included finding a home church of my own. Since I framed it as a "growing up" issue and not a matter of not liking their church, they were okay with it and even suggested I try attending the Methodist church within walking distance of me. So I did, and it helped me "acclimate" to the way a parish (as opposed to a megachurch) works. From my years of taking care of aquarium fish, I learned that sometimes you have to gradually adjust a fish to its new home (pH, water quality, temperature, etc.) or else it will go into shock. This is often true of people too. So this Methodist church (most of whose members are age 50+, by the way), was sort of a halfway house for me, despite not being my first choice (which would have been Orthodoxy). It also didn't trigger panic attacks in me the way trying to visit Orthodox parishes on my own did.

About a week ago, my parents and I attended a Middle East Fest that the Antiochian parish about 25 miles away was putting on. It wasn't even my suggestion, either; they got the idea from the owner of a Lebanese restaurant we go to a lot, who himself goes to that parish.

I, of course, was eager to go. We even got to talk to one of the priests there (himself a former Baptist minister, so he "speaks fluent Evangelical"). My parents were actually quite open to what he was saying; they said they weren't going to switch churches just yet, but said that if they moved somewhere else they might check to see if there was an Orthodox church nearby. If they'd consider that as an option, then I'm sure that if I swam the Bosporus they'd be supportive of it. So at least I don't have to worry about that anymore.

My next move? There's a smaller OCA mission parish relatively close to me, so that I only need one bus route to get there (no transfers, which would have been a deal-breaker since those buses don't always run on time to begin with). As long as I can wake up early enough on a Sunday, I could make it. I actually did try visiting it before but "chickened out". I think I'm going to try again. This time, because I've actually "broken the ice" by speaking to an Orthodox priest, I should have better results.

I do still have a heart for the people at the Methodist church down the street, though; they've been very friendly to me in spite of my youth and eccentricities. They even say hi to me when they see me during at the week (for example, at my workplace). I'd hope they'd understand what I'm doing and not think I was moving because I didn't like them or something. I'll talk to the priest at the OCA parish about how to break the news. (I actually think it'd be a nice idea to rent out that Methodist church's space on off hours, possibly a weekday, to hold Orthodox services in. That'd give the people in my town, and the people already attending the Methodist church, a chance to encounter Orthodoxy up close, and who knows, maybe they'd like what they saw. But first things first).

P.S: As for my parents' church, I haven't been there in quite a while, but they do sometimes describe the sermons to me. It doesn't seem to have changed too much since I left, so perhaps I was wrong about the "sudden Calvinist takeover"; it's just that I've read enough of The Wartburg Watch and Roger E. Olson's blog to know that neo-Calvinists (and also other groups like charismaniacs) do have a history of "steeplejacking" unsuspecting churches, so I was worried that such a takeover was in process. Thankfully my suspicions didn't fully come true, though; although some of the younger pastors on staff do hold and promote Calvinist beliefs, it hasn't become a hardline Calvinist or 9Marxist church, thank God. I suspect this is because they know that

in alot of these megachurches, most people don't agree with with the core precepts of neo-Calvinism.  They may believe in "once saved, always saved," but not the idea that God hates some people by default.

and if they pushed Calvinism too hard, it'd cause a mass exodus and they know better than to do that.


P.S.:
I told my mom over the phone later that day that I had some misgivings about what this pastor said. I mentioned that "when you've learned about critical thinking and theology in college like I have, this kind of thing starts happening to you--you don't just take what people say at face value".

I don't think they teach critical thinking at college anymore.

It was a Christian liberal-arts college. They made use of the Socratic method a lot. Most of the faculty at that college were themselves Calvinist, and sometimes outspokenly so, but they didn't force it on us. They also had a rather positive view of the Catholic tradition and the Middle Ages and one of the faculty even identified himself as a neo-Thomist (albeit a Calvinist one). Orthodoxy wasn't discussed that much, probably because of the unspoken assumption that it was a backwater as a result of not being Western. So in way they were trying to emulate the way Catholic schools work, but not specifically for Catholics, instead taking a "Pan-Western Christian" approach. I don't have any complaints about it.

In fact, if it hadn't been for that college, I wouldn't have started asking the questions that led me to where I am now.  That school does deserve credit for helping drag me (and a lot of my classmates) out of the "Bible + Reformation + Now" view of history that people with Protestant backgrounds unconsciously tend towards. I had to first take the Catholic Middle Ages seriously rather than just writing it off. They helped me do that. Then by doing my own research I was able to look even further back to pre-1054 to see how people "did church" back then. Once I did, I finally had a full perspective. Then I learned about Peter Gillquist's group being received by Antioch in the 1980s and it was like I had come full circle, and I realized Orthodoxy was an option not just for Greeks and Russians, but for Americans too.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2016, 02:27:13 AM by Minnesotan »
I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

Offline Minnesotan

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,329
  • Milo Thatch is the ONLY Milo for me. #FreeAtlantis
Re: A Baby Step
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2016, 02:44:35 AM »
Oops double post
« Last Edit: July 25, 2016, 02:45:00 AM by Minnesotan »
I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

Offline Minnesotan

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,329
  • Milo Thatch is the ONLY Milo for me. #FreeAtlantis
Re: A Baby Step
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2016, 02:44:46 AM »
Oops triple post. I was trying to edit reply #18 without realizing that it was no longer editable, so I ended up quoting it instead. Then it happened again. Sorry.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2016, 02:46:30 AM by Minnesotan »
I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

Offline Daedelus1138

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 931
Re: A Baby Step
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2016, 06:54:09 PM »
The YRR seem heavily influenced by Jonathan Edwards, a uniquely American phenomenon.

The actual Reformed faith holds individual eternal security as more a theoretical thing (Calvin was way more nuanced than the YRR make him out to be), not completely unlike the Lutherans (Lutherans just tend to see the glass as half empty on that issue). 
« Last Edit: July 28, 2016, 07:12:20 PM by Daedelus1138 »

Online TheTrisagion

  • Delusional Overlord
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,157
  • And the cat is back again.
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: A Baby Step
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2016, 10:47:37 PM »
YYR = Young Restless Reformed (I googled it  :))
That sounds like a daytime television soap opera.
The term planet earth is an innovation which has arisen in recent centuries with the error of heliocentrism.

If one wants to confess a pure doctrine of Orthodoxy, they should be careful not to refer to the earth as a planet, unlike the current Pope as well as Patriarch Kirill and Patriarch Bartholomew, who regularly speak in error when they refer to our planet earth.

Offline Daedelus1138

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 931
Re: A Baby Step
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2016, 11:03:30 PM »
Orthodoxy isn't talked about a lot because most American evangelicals perceive it as:
1) ethnic enclaves
2) mystical:  western people associate mysticism with Buddhism and Star Wars, not Christianity.  in fact American culture is pragmatic/utilitarian and mysticism strikes the wrong chord except for those that are actively counter-cultural.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2016, 11:05:42 PM by Daedelus1138 »

Offline Porter ODoran

  • Avid apokatastisist
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,432
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: A Baby Step
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2016, 12:14:01 AM »
The YRR seem heavily influenced by Jonathan Edwards, a uniquely American phenomenon.

The actual Reformed faith holds individual eternal security as more a theoretical thing (Calvin was way more nuanced than the YRR make him out to be), not completely unlike the Lutherans (Lutherans just tend to see the glass as half empty on that issue).

They aren't influenced by him, to my observation; they do use him and his renovation as a brand for the movement.

The new Reformed movement is spreading among young Evangelical men like wildfire. It parallels, both in rapid rise and demographic, the Libertarian movement. (There is an irony here, but I won't delve into it.) The spread seems to be male-celebrity driven -- Mr. Piper, Mr. Driscoll, but also many other smaller figures. One aspect of the movement that some here may have overlooked is the universalist soteriology in their Calvinism -- it is not much discussed, but when a spotlight is shone on the more-horrible side of Calvinism, universalism tends to crop up as an apologetic.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are

Offline Daedelus1138

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 931
Re: A Baby Step
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2016, 02:05:25 AM »
The YRR stuff attracts a lot of misogynistic types that just believe God smiles on their particular subconscious attitudes to power.  It actually doesn't seem a very repentance driver lifestyle from what I have seen on the outside, it seems like really superficial stuff.  That's actually the feature I dislike about it most.     
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 02:07:49 AM by Daedelus1138 »

Offline Onesimus

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 433
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: A Baby Step
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2016, 02:18:28 AM »
Yep yep to both the previous two posts.   I had a YRR professor who taught culture and mission.   The syncretism here is astonishing.   The belief that God is redeeming all cultural expressions is prevalent.   Its sort of an extreme expansion on the whole "Protestant work ethic" so widespread in Calvinism.

I even had to confront my professor when he expressed the idea that a Christian based marketing and missions platform might work hand in hand with the Pornographic industry.   My jaw dropped and I did my best to put him in his place before the entire class.   His expression was based on a real life experience in which this Christian non-profit was "conflicted" about whether or not they should partner.   My impression is that they did, and that he smiled upon the act.   The utilitarian ethic pretty much trumps everything in such twisted theologies.

The texts I had to read for the class made my head spin.

Ridiculous.   

Offline Minnesotan

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,329
  • Milo Thatch is the ONLY Milo for me. #FreeAtlantis
Re: A Baby Step
« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2016, 02:31:21 AM »
Yep yep to both the previous two posts.   I had a YRR professor who taught culture and mission.   The syncretism here is astonishing.   The belief that God is redeeming all cultural expressions is prevalent.   Its sort of an extreme expansion on the whole "Protestant work ethic" so widespread in Calvinism.

I even had to confront my professor when he expressed the idea that a Christian based marketing and missions platform might work hand in hand with the Pornographic industry. My jaw dropped and I did my best to put him in his place before the entire class.  His expression was based on a real life experience in which this Christian non-profit was "conflicted" about whether or not they should partner.   My impression is that they did, and that he smiled upon the act.   The utilitarian ethic pretty much trumps everything in such twisted theologies.

The texts I had to read for the class made my head spin.

Ridiculous.

Was he talking about XXXChurch? Some might call what they do "partnering" (for instance, the founder of the group has befriended Ron Jeremy as a result of regularly debating him on the issue of porn). However, that doesn't change the fact that the basic purpose of the ministry is to help people get out of the porn industry, seeing them as victims of exploitation. So it's anti-pornography but they are willing to behave graciously towards those on the other side of the debate. I don't have a problem with XXXChurch at all.

But if your professor was talking about something else (like say, making Christian-themed porn to use as an evangelization tool, which would be heading into Flirty Fishing territory), then I'd certainly view that as aberrant.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 02:33:13 AM by Minnesotan »
I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

Offline Onesimus

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 433
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: A Baby Step
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2016, 02:38:09 AM »
No...is was'nt XXXChurch.   It was a parachurch ministry focused on marketing and mission.   From what he expressed it was totally unrelated to any outreach to porn stars, but a monetary service in which the ministry would market for the porn industry.   I call it a ministry loosely.   It was based somewhere in the Pacific Northwest.

I'm familiar with XXXChurch and would not have an issue with their approach insofar as it is actively involved in both helping porn stars escape and porn abusers stay accountable.

Offline Daedelus1138

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 931
Re: A Baby Step
« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2016, 02:51:19 AM »
That's chilling.

A lot of the mystique of the YRR is supposedly their "frankness" about issues like that.   From what I heard from Mark Driscoll, it's baptizing juvenile fratboy sexuality.  I can't believe he went to Australia and a whole Anglican diocese listened to his adolescent critique of "the way they do church", it's like letting an inmate run an asylum.  But then again the diocese of Sydney is a very odd duck in the Anglican world.

« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 02:53:40 AM by Daedelus1138 »

Offline rakovsky

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,186
  • St. Mstislav I
    • The Old Testament Prophecies of the Messiah's Resurrection and Orthodox Christianity's roots in the Holy Land
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: A Baby Step
« Reply #30 on: July 29, 2016, 06:55:36 PM »
It really worries me that this is what he's filling his head with.
I'm curious, can you PM me the link?

Ancient Faith Radio has a rebuttal to Sproul's views on EOs:

https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxbridge/30/

Offline Porter ODoran

  • Avid apokatastisist
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,432
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: A Baby Step
« Reply #31 on: July 29, 2016, 07:11:26 PM »
That's chilling.

A lot of the mystique of the YRR is supposedly their "frankness" about issues like that.   From what I heard from Mark Driscoll, it's baptizing juvenile fratboy sexuality.  I can't believe he went to Australia and a whole Anglican diocese listened to his adolescent critique of "the way they do church", it's like letting an inmate run an asylum.  But then again the diocese of Sydney is a very odd duck in the Anglican world.

Living in the Northwest, we've encountered a lot of young men who pilgrimaged to Mars Hill and came home raving predestinationalist, misogynist, relativist hipsters. (And by raving, I also mean swearing, as Mr. Driscoll would make it a point that there's nothing wrong with the F-word in a sermon.) After he imploded and passed off the scene, I didn't notice a downtick in these guys really. I think at this point it's a movement that doesn't need a head, kind of like Ron Paul-ism after Dr. Paul retired. But hopefully I'm wrong.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 07:12:25 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are

Offline Minnesotan

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,329
  • Milo Thatch is the ONLY Milo for me. #FreeAtlantis
Re: A Baby Step
« Reply #32 on: July 29, 2016, 07:38:18 PM »
It really worries me that this is what he's filling his head with.
I'm curious, can you PM me the link?

Ancient Faith Radio has a rebuttal to Sproul's views on EOs:

https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxbridge/30/

Ah, yes, I remember that blog. It was a favorite of mine long before it became Ancient Faith-ified.  ;)
I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

Offline maneki_neko

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 35
  • Faith: Inquirer Wannabe
  • Jurisdiction: leaving Evangelical Protestantism
Re: A Baby Step
« Reply #33 on: July 31, 2016, 11:36:11 AM »
It really worries me that this is what he's filling his head with.
I'm curious, can you PM me the link?

Ancient Faith Radio has a rebuttal to Sproul's views on EOs:

https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxbridge/30/

Rakovsky, thank you that's very helpful to me!