Reformation Leaders and Unorthodox Christology?

[alanscott]

 
Please understand it is not out of conflict or challenge, but pure curiosity, which I ask if you would still consider me Gnostic?

In Christ,

Scott

I have to say yes.

  I'm not denying that there appears to be a good amount of truth to much of your post. But where you start to veer off is at the moment of truth. That is the Eucharist. To us the body and blood are a real reality and intertwined into our salvation and deification.  We believe salvation is reached on earth here and now. We don't project it to the time of judgment. We don't believe the body of Christ is an event yet to be for-filled. We also believe the body of Christ is and are those who through a relationship with Christ have become sanctified in life and exist now along with those working towards salvation.   Your thoughts are that people outside of the institutionalized confides of a church are sanctified through social events leading up to the life changing event. Your clergy are powerless so to speak and the sacraments are void of any life giving powers. You are projecting the church to be visible after the judgment. While we have a visible church now.
  While I would never confine gods moving grace to just the walls of Orthodoxy. I hope you can see that our vision of church is what separates us. That is why I have chosen to use the words gnosis for your belief system.

First off let me thank you for your honest and polite reply. I remind myself I am not the most prolific writer and often misstate my thoughts. This appears to perhaps be one of those occasions. It is also imperative to me to reiterate that the very best I can do is state what I believe and to a lesser extent what is taught and believed at the Church I pray following Wesleyan doctrine. As mentioned by myself and others it is not possible to lump the beliefs and views of all Protestants together or get a generalization from one denomination that represents all. What you are claiming might very well apply to many. 

I agree with what I put in bold of your first paragraph. When I say ‘cooperate’ with Grace and ‘prepare ones heart’ I very much mean with the presence of our Living God in the here and now. Grace to my understanding is His actual Living Presence in our lives. Whatever the afterlife shall bring, and whatever disagreement we may have of Hell or Hades, Heaven or Paradise, I fully accept that it is not solely a place or some future event, but a state of ones soul that begins here on earth. Here, and in the present, we may first come in touch with the Divine. Christ has risen, is very much alive, and very much in our lives. As far as the way you view the Eucharist pertaining to salvation; as mentioned I have not learned enough yet to truly understand. By comparison could there be a lack of ‘fullness’ in the way a Wesleyan Protestant approaches this? Yes, I’m beginning to realize that may be the case. I would hardly think that makes me Gnostic but as mentioned we may have different definitions of what Gnosticism is.

Your second paragraph I will assume is a misunderstanding, or misstatement on my end, or a generalization of Protestants that I simply deny for myself.  With that said there is some truth in the fact that we probably see our clergy in a different light. I respect that you may then see our view of sacraments as void. We’ll have to agree to disagree on that one. I am still on this earth and as a repenting sinner proof to myself they are not void.

With regards to your third paragraph I will comment that yes, I am beginning to see the Orthodox ‘vision’ of Church as something ‘separate’ from the views I have been exposed to. Just for the record I have a reverence and respect for what I am learning there of. I wouldn’t be here otherwise! We do agree at least in not confining God’s grace. 

We have several significant differences that I am not trying to down play, yet, still fail to see how that makes me Gnostic to my understanding of the term. What is important, perhaps all that is truly important, is that you perceive to have found Truth and Understanding in Orthodoxy and I would agree you have, by the grace of God. One should never turn from such Truth. I am thankful that by God’s Grace I am being led from darkness to His light on a path that I believe has Truth and Understanding as well. It is best I not turn from such a path as I believe God has led me,  while leaving my heart open to take any redirection He gives as I seek to die to self and live in Him.

To the OP that I have veered from I fear, I repeat that yes, some Protestants at least clearly believe Christ was both fully man and fully God. My understanding of both Wesleyan and Orthodox theology could not work in any other way.

Peace be with you!

[alanscott]

I must also revisit and learn more of Gnosticism. The definition and theology as I currently understand it is one to which I, as well as any Protestants I know or pray with, would respectfully reject. If not adamantly reject  I'm not sure what is meant by ‘modern day gnostic’ though.

There really isn't much behind this line of argument. I'd spend your time investigating something more worthwhile.

Actually, I need to offer an apology to Tzimis for this statement. Please know it was not with ill will, poor spirit, or being a smarty pants, but as I was attempting to be polite a little sarcasm was incorporated. At the time I thought it was nicer than to come out and challenge whatever definition of Gnostic was being used. If it came across in any other way please forgive.

Being on OC.net I certainly am 'investigating something more worthwhile' 

[PeterTheAleut]

Apparently I'm not the only one who believes this. Here are members that have similar views.  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,589.0.html

First, you did not answer my question, so I am assuming that the answer is "no".  Second, so what if other members share that view.  If 100 people believe something that is stupid, it does not make it any less stupid.  It just means that there are 100 stupid people that believe the same thing.

I gave you a quote that fit perfectly into protestant theology and you clearly ignored it.

No, he did not. He addressed your attempt to lump all Protestants into one camp even though many clearly do not belong, and he did so by countering the substance of your argument that Protestants all follow a secret gnosis. In short, he refuted the claim you hoped to make by posting that quote.

So why should I be lored by you into a a debate under your terms.

His question to you is perfectly legitimate. I, for one, would like to see you answer it.

Anybody insulting my intelligent doesn't deserve two minutes of my time. I have make a clear statement that has yet to be refuted by anybody and until it is my question has presidents over his.

That's not how debate works. No one bears any burden to prove you wrong until you can first make a cogent argument that you're right. You haven't done so, and you have others arguing that you're guilty of engaging in a hasty generalization fallacy. Until you address that charge, nothing else you say will be convincing, and you'll just be playing more of those rhetorical games you love to play with us.

[witega]

 
Please understand it is not out of conflict or challenge, but pure curiosity, which I ask if you would still consider me Gnostic?

In Christ,

Scott

I have to say yes.

  I'm not denying that there appears to be a good amount of truth to much of your post. But where you start to veer off is at the moment of truth. That is the Eucharist. To us the body and blood are a real reality and intertwined into our salvation and deification.  We believe salvation is reached on earth here and now. We don't project it to the time of judgment. We don't believe the body of Christ is an event yet to be for-filled. We also believe the body of Christ is and are those who through a relationship with Christ have become sanctified in life and exist now along with those working towards salvation.   Your thoughts are that people outside of the institutionalized confides of a church are sanctified through social events leading up to the life changing event. Your clergy are powerless so to speak and the sacraments are void of any life giving powers. You are projecting the church to be visible after the judgment. While we have a visible church now.
  While I would never confine gods moving grace to just the walls of Orthodoxy. I hope you can see that our vision of church is what separates us. That is why I have chosen to use the words gnosis for your belief system.

First off let me thank you for your honest and polite reply. I remind myself I am not the most prolific writer and often misstate my thoughts. This appears to perhaps be one of those occasions. It is also imperative to me to reiterate that the very best I can do is state what I believe and to a lesser extent what is taught and believed at the Church I pray following Wesleyan doctrine. As mentioned by myself and others it is not possible to lump the beliefs and views of all Protestants together or get a generalization from one denomination that represents all. What you are claiming might very well apply to many. 

I agree with what I put in bold of your first paragraph. When I say ‘cooperate’ with Grace and ‘prepare ones heart’ I very much mean with the presence of our Living God in the here and now. Grace to my understanding is His actual Living Presence in our lives. Whatever the afterlife shall bring, and whatever disagreement we may have of Hell or Hades, Heaven or Paradise, I fully accept that it is not solely a place or some future event, but a state of ones soul that begins here on earth. Here, and in the present, we may first come in touch with the Divine. Christ has risen, is very much alive, and very much in our lives. As far as the way you view the Eucharist pertaining to salvation; as mentioned I have not learned enough yet to truly understand. By comparison could there be a lack of ‘fullness’ in the way a Wesleyan Protestant approaches this? Yes, I’m beginning to realize that may be the case. I would hardly think that makes me Gnostic but as mentioned we may have different definitions of what Gnosticism is.

Your second paragraph I will assume is a misunderstanding, or misstatement on my end, or a generalization of Protestants that I simply deny for myself.  With that said there is some truth in the fact that we probably see our clergy in a different light. I respect that you may then see our view of sacraments as void. We’ll have to agree to disagree on that one. I am still on this earth and as a repenting sinner proof to myself they are not void.

With regards to your third paragraph I will comment that yes, I am beginning to see the Orthodox ‘vision’ of Church as something ‘separate’ from the views I have been exposed to. Just for the record I have a reverence and respect for what I am learning there of. I wouldn’t be here otherwise! We do agree at least in not confining God’s grace. 

We have several significant differences that I am not trying to down play, yet, still fail to see how that makes me Gnostic to my understanding of the term. What is important, perhaps all that is truly important, is that you perceive to have found Truth and Understanding in Orthodoxy and I would agree you have, by the grace of God. One should never turn from such Truth. I am thankful that by God’s Grace I am being led from darkness to His light on a path that I believe has Truth and Understanding as well. It is best I not turn from such a path as I believe God has led me,  while leaving my heart open to take any redirection He gives as I seek to die to self and live in Him.

To the OP that I have veered from I fear, I repeat that yes, some Protestants at least clearly believe Christ was both fully man and fully God. My understanding of both Wesleyan and Orthodox theology could not work in any other way.

Peace be with you!

(apologies to alanscott for talking 'about' him as if he wasn't here rather than 'to' him at this point, but...) This post is a graphic example of why I think it is so unproductive to try to link "Protestantism" (as a catch-all label) to Gnosticism. alanscott is clearly a thoughtful Protestant who, simply by virtue of spending time on this site, has created an opportunity for himself to learn and possibly be convinced by the Truth of Orthodoxy. But rather than learning and thinking about the differences (we would say deficiencies) between his Wesleyan ecclesiology and sacramental understandings, we instead have him expending his time and mental effort writing long, thoughtful on whether or not he is a 'gnostic'. If we simply address him as what he is (a Wesleyan Protestant) then we can stop wasting his time and give him the opportunity to start putting that same effort to actually learning about Orthodoxy.

[Punch]

Apparently I'm not the only one who believes this. Here are members that have similar views.  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,589.0.html

First, you did not answer my question, so I am assuming that the answer is "no".  Second, so what if other members share that view.  If 100 people believe something that is stupid, it does not make it any less stupid.  It just means that there are 100 stupid people that believe the same thing.

I gave you a quote that fit perfectly into protestant theology and you clearly ignored it.

No, he did not. He addressed your attempt to lump all Protestants into one camp even though many clearly do not belong, and he did so by countering the substance of your argument that Protestants all follow a secret gnosis. In short, he refuted the claim you hoped to make by posting that quote.

So why should I be lored by you into a a debate under your terms.

His question to you is perfectly legitimate. I, for one, would like to see you answer it.

Anybody insulting my intelligent doesn't deserve two minutes of my time. I have make a clear statement that has yet to be refuted by anybody and until it is my question has presidents over his.

Well, it was not my intention to insult the one intelligent that you have.  You made a statement that was clearly false, and I believe that I have completely refuted it, at least as far as the original Protestants go.  Your posts do not convince me, or for that matter, even allow me to suspect, that you know anything about Protestant Theology (or Gnostics, for that matter).  So, it is best that you not be lured into a debate with me since I do not like gunfighting an unarmed man.

[Tzimis]

Apparently I'm not the only one who believes this. Here are members that have similar views.  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,589.0.html

First, you did not answer my question, so I am assuming that the answer is "no".  Second, so what if other members share that view.  If 100 people believe something that is stupid, it does not make it any less stupid.  It just means that there are 100 stupid people that believe the same thing.

I gave you a quote that fit perfectly into protestant theology and you clearly ignored it.

No, he did not. He addressed your attempt to lump all Protestants into one camp even though many clearly do not belong, and he did so by countering the substance of your argument that Protestants all follow a secret gnosis. In short, he refuted the claim you hoped to make by posting that quote.

So why should I be lored by you into a a debate under your terms.

His question to you is perfectly legitimate. I, for one, would like to see you answer it.

Anybody insulting my intelligent doesn't deserve two minutes of my time. I have make a clear statement that has yet to be refuted by anybody and until it is my question has presidents over his.

Well, it was not my intention to insult the one intelligent that you have.  You made a statement that was clearly false, and I believe that I have completely refuted it, at least as far as the original Protestants go.  Your posts do not convince me, or for that matter, even allow me to suspect, that you know anything about Protestant Theology (or Gnostics, for that matter).  So, it is best that you not be lured into a debate with me since I do not like gunfighting an unarmed man.

Those guns that you own are full of more hot air than the theology in your possession.   

[Tzimis]

 
Please understand it is not out of conflict or challenge, but pure curiosity, which I ask if you would still consider me Gnostic?

In Christ,

Scott

I have to say yes.

  I'm not denying that there appears to be a good amount of truth to much of your post. But where you start to veer off is at the moment of truth. That is the Eucharist. To us the body and blood are a real reality and intertwined into our salvation and deification.  We believe salvation is reached on earth here and now. We don't project it to the time of judgment. We don't believe the body of Christ is an event yet to be for-filled. We also believe the body of Christ is and are those who through a relationship with Christ have become sanctified in life and exist now along with those working towards salvation.   Your thoughts are that people outside of the institutionalized confides of a church are sanctified through social events leading up to the life changing event. Your clergy are powerless so to speak and the sacraments are void of any life giving powers. You are projecting the church to be visible after the judgment. While we have a visible church now.
  While I would never confine gods moving grace to just the walls of Orthodoxy. I hope you can see that our vision of church is what separates us. That is why I have chosen to use the words gnosis for your belief system.

First off let me thank you for your honest and polite reply. I remind myself I am not the most prolific writer and often misstate my thoughts. This appears to perhaps be one of those occasions. It is also imperative to me to reiterate that the very best I can do is state what I believe and to a lesser extent what is taught and believed at the Church I pray following Wesleyan doctrine. As mentioned by myself and others it is not possible to lump the beliefs and views of all Protestants together or get a generalization from one denomination that represents all. What you are claiming might very well apply to many. 

I agree with what I put in bold of your first paragraph. When I say ‘cooperate’ with Grace and ‘prepare ones heart’ I very much mean with the presence of our Living God in the here and now. Grace to my understanding is His actual Living Presence in our lives. Whatever the afterlife shall bring, and whatever disagreement we may have of Hell or Hades, Heaven or Paradise, I fully accept that it is not solely a place or some future event, but a state of ones soul that begins here on earth. Here, and in the present, we may first come in touch with the Divine. Christ has risen, is very much alive, and very much in our lives. As far as the way you view the Eucharist pertaining to salvation; as mentioned I have not learned enough yet to truly understand. By comparison could there be a lack of ‘fullness’ in the way a Wesleyan Protestant approaches this? Yes, I’m beginning to realize that may be the case. I would hardly think that makes me Gnostic but as mentioned we may have different definitions of what Gnosticism is.

Your second paragraph I will assume is a misunderstanding, or misstatement on my end, or a generalization of Protestants that I simply deny for myself.  With that said there is some truth in the fact that we probably see our clergy in a different light. I respect that you may then see our view of sacraments as void. We’ll have to agree to disagree on that one. I am still on this earth and as a repenting sinner proof to myself they are not void.

With regards to your third paragraph I will comment that yes, I am beginning to see the Orthodox ‘vision’ of Church as something ‘separate’ from the views I have been exposed to. Just for the record I have a reverence and respect for what I am learning there of. I wouldn’t be here otherwise! We do agree at least in not confining God’s grace. 

We have several significant differences that I am not trying to down play, yet, still fail to see how that makes me Gnostic to my understanding of the term. What is important, perhaps all that is truly important, is that you perceive to have found Truth and Understanding in Orthodoxy and I would agree you have, by the grace of God. One should never turn from such Truth. I am thankful that by God’s Grace I am being led from darkness to His light on a path that I believe has Truth and Understanding as well. It is best I not turn from such a path as I believe God has led me,  while leaving my heart open to take any redirection He gives as I seek to die to self and live in Him.

To the OP that I have veered from I fear, I repeat that yes, some Protestants at least clearly believe Christ was both fully man and fully God. My understanding of both Wesleyan and Orthodox theology could not work in any other way.

Peace be with you!

  Thank you for your kind words and I do hope that you continue to explore Orthodoxy. Getting back to the nature of the topic. I do find that deification is very akin to the Wesleyan understanding of holiness or perfection. With that stated. I do hope that you continue investigating the Church and it's Eucharistic theology to greater depths. As I believe it is what is mainly lacking in your tradition. Exploring the church from outside may be a little different than actually living it's tradition. When one moves through the sacraments ones spirit is accompanied by there entire presents. One doesn't just see the under line meaning of the water when it's poured during baptism. They also feel how cold it is. It's a movement that brings to light what salvation is as well as knowledge of the love god truly has for us.

[alanscott]

Gentleman…

Witega; your apology is not necessary though the thoughtfulness and consideration are certainly appreciated. Keeping in mind I willfully engaged in the topic, you make a fair point that causes me to question my own time management. I had no problem at all with attempting to clarify my position; however you remind me I did not join this site to defend my beliefs or be any type of Protestant apologist either, though I have found myself sounding like one at times. 

Tzimis; Thank you for your encouragement and well wishes. I feel with all my heart that the Spirit of God is guiding me. I truly believe He has led me to where He wants me to be (Wesleyan Church I currently tend) for this moment in time. I feel equally as sure it is no accident I ‘happened’ upon Orthodoxy as well, or that I stumbled upon this site. I have full intentions of continuing to learn. If at any time I feel God is leading me to Orthodoxy as opposed to where I am now, I will surely be blessed and grateful, and would gladly follow that command too. Glory be to God.


In Christ,

Scott

[Peter J]

And so my question, how many of the Protestant Reformation leaders had an unorthodox Christology?

All of them...

Did they all really reject traditional Christology? What, then, were they?

They reject the Church.

You mean the Catholic Church?

To be fare this requires a lengthy response that will drive the thread ot.

I agree, that would need its own thread.

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