Author Topic: One angel 2 angels, 2 men inside outside ! What realy happened.  (Read 719 times)

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Offline megaa

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First of all sorry if this is not the right thread to post this on - if theirs a more appropriate one then i dont mind if the site boss / webmaster moves it.

Details of the resurection account differ from each account. In Mathews version of the gospel the two Marys go to visit the tomb. The see the tomb which has a angel sitting on the rock who speaks to them.

In Marks account we see three women go to the tomb. In this acocunt they notice the rock rolled away however do not notice a angel sitting on the rock and only notice a man on the right of the tomb once inside the tomb.

Lukes account states that women went to the tomb - this ticks the right box and agrees with both the above as it does not specify. Now it is only after they enter the tomb, do not see the body, they begin to wonder where the body is - it is only after this point that two men appear to them. So no mention of a angel sitting on the rock, or no vision of this person once inside but after a certain time period has elapsed in the  tomb. A litttle different from both the above.

In Johns account - Mary goes to the tomb, sees the empty tomb yet no mention of any communication with anybody about what has happened to Jesus instead she runs back to the desciples. The 3 desciples run to the tomb see it empty and leave for their homes. Mary is outside weeping and eventualy looks inside to see two angels.


To me this appears to be four different versions of the one story instead of one versionb  of a story told by 4 different people.


I do not wish to offend but my poiint here is to see what other people have to say about this.




Offline Benjamin the Red

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Re: One angel 2 angels, 2 men inside outside ! What realy happened.
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2012, 09:58:24 PM »
They're remembering it differently. I'm not surprised. Luke wasn't there at all, Mark gets his info from Peter, I don't think Matthew supposedly went at all himself, and John was a young guy when it happened, and very old when his Gospel was written.

Essentially, not only do we have a different perspective, but we have second-hand accounts, and not only second-hand, but accounts being given several decades after the fact of an event that was very abnormal. There are actually a lot of psychology studies and experiments that test the ability of individuals to remember such details in similarly bewildering experiences. We aren't very good at it.

Do the account conflict? Yep. Absolutely. Can they be harmonized? Nope, because they are very different. However, the core message of the Gospel of the risen Christ is maintained.
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Offline Babalon

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Re: One angel 2 angels, 2 men inside outside ! What realy happened.
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2012, 10:05:52 PM »
They're remembering it differently. I'm not surprised. Luke wasn't there at all, Mark gets his info from Peter, I don't think Matthew supposedly went at all himself, and John was a young guy when it happened, and very old when his Gospel was written.

Essentially, not only do we have a different perspective, but we have second-hand accounts, and not only second-hand, but accounts being given several decades after the fact of an event that was very abnormal. There are actually a lot of psychology studies and experiments that test the ability of individuals to remember such details in similarly bewildering experiences. We aren't very good at it.

Do the account conflict? Yep. Absolutely. Can they be harmonized? Nope, because they are very different. However, the core message of the Gospel of the risen Christ is maintained.

Bravo. Intelligent, and honest.

I can dig it.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: One angel 2 angels, 2 men inside outside ! What realy happened.
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2012, 10:28:06 PM »
As I recall, St. Theophylact argues that if the four gospels all gave the exact same account, things would look a bit suspicious.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: One angel 2 angels, 2 men inside outside ! What realy happened.
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2012, 11:02:16 PM »
As I recall, St. Theophylact argues that if the four gospels all gave the exact same account, things would look a bit suspicious.
Yes, they'd appear as if they all came from one source. Four accounts that differ on a number of details actually show that multiple witnesses saw the evidence of the Resurrection, which gives their stories more credibility, not less.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2012, 11:02:34 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Gamliel

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Re: One angel 2 angels, 2 men inside outside ! What realy happened.
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2012, 01:54:09 AM »
As I recall, St. Theophylact argues that if the four gospels all gave the exact same account, things would look a bit suspicious.
You recall correctly.  I go with a crowd to the store.  One source says, "Gamliel went to the store."  Another says, "Gamliel, Tom, Dick, and Harry" went to the store."  Another says, "A crowd went to the store."  Is there a conflict?

Offline megaa

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Re: One angel 2 angels, 2 men inside outside ! What realy happened.
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2012, 05:54:39 AM »
Gamliel - the women / number of women that went to the tomb is the least of concerns about the differences in each account. Its the other differences that are more of a worry than this re.

Benjamin the red - thanks for your honest answer and thanks for not attempting to convince me that these accounts compliment and harmonize with one another. I think when you find 4 stories like these that contradict one another then it leaves the readers with alot of concerning questions in their head. Of most concern would be the reader would say to themselves - only one of these accounts is true therefore as I've decided that not all of the bible is accurate - what partsof the bible can Itrust and what part may be mistaken.

It may even make many question the whole lot.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 06:01:54 AM by megaa »

Offline akimori makoto

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Re: One angel 2 angels, 2 men inside outside ! What realy happened.
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2012, 05:58:56 AM »
As I recall, St. Theophylact argues that if the four gospels all gave the exact same account, things would look a bit suspicious.

A court would give no weight to four such accounts in any hearing of a matter: civil or criminal.
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Offline Theophilos78

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Re: One angel 2 angels, 2 men inside outside ! What realy happened.
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2012, 06:31:55 AM »

Details of the resurection account differ from each account. In Mathews version of the gospel the two Marys go to visit the tomb. The see the tomb which has a angel sitting on the rock who speaks to them.

In Marks account we see three women go to the tomb. In this acocunt they notice the rock rolled away however do not notice a angel sitting on the rock and only notice a man on the right of the tomb once inside the tomb.

Matthew was the only Evangelist to talk of an angel sitting on the stone because he was also the only Evangelist to relate how the Jewish authorities got the tombtone sealed and secured in order to prevent the fulfillment of Christ's prediction.

http://answering-islam.org/authors/masihiyyen/rebuttal_paine.html

Lukes account states that women went to the tomb - this ticks the right box and agrees with both the above as it does not specify. Now it is only after they enter the tomb, do not see the body, they begin to wonder where the body is - it is only after this point that two men appear to them. So no mention of a angel sitting on the rock, or no vision of this person once inside but after a certain time period has elapsed in the  tomb. A litttle different from both the above.

This is because Luke did not follow Mark's and Matthew's outline. If you read all the Gospels carefully, you see that Matthew's account is more similar to Mark's whilst Luke's to John's. These four Gospels can be divided into two groups of two. Notice that an angel of the Lord in Matthew and Mark told the women that the disciples would see the risen Lord in Galilee whereas in Luke and John's accounts risen Christ appeared to His disciples first in Jerusalem!

We can infer that the men in white/bright clothing in Mark and Luke were angels although Matthew explicitly used the word angel probably because he also recounted how the tombstone was rolled through a divine intervention and manifestation.

In Luke and John the number of these men talking to women was said to be two in contrast to the one reporter in Matthew and Mark. This was probably because Luke and John wanted to associate these messengers with the fact that Jesus had sent His messengers two by two. More, two people's testimony were required in Judaism. Note that in Acts similarly two men appeared to the apostles at the time of the Lord's ascension.

In Johns account - Mary goes to the tomb, sees the empty tomb yet no mention of any communication with anybody about what has happened to Jesus instead she runs back to the desciples. The 3 desciples run to the tomb see it empty and leave for their homes. Mary is outside weeping and eventualy looks inside to see two angels.

First, there were two different groups of women going to the tomb. Second, John did not say that only Mary Magdalene went to see the tomb. While informing the disciples she said "WE do not know where they laid the Lord's body". Third, John the Evangelist wanted to relate Jesus' first appearance from Mary Magdalene's perspective, making her play the leading role. Her male counterpart among the disciples was Thomas.
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Offline megaa

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Re: One angel 2 angels, 2 men inside outside ! What realy happened.
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2012, 06:59:36 AM »
Theophilo thanks for your response re.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: One angel 2 angels, 2 men inside outside ! What realy happened.
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2012, 12:41:55 PM »
As I recall, St. Theophylact argues that if the four gospels all gave the exact same account, things would look a bit suspicious.
Yes, they'd appear as if they all came from one source. Four accounts that differ on a number of details actually show that multiple witnesses saw the evidence of the Resurrection, which gives their stories more credibility, not less.

This is how I see it.  More witnesses, more credibility.   Conflict is a harsh word because a conflict is often a direct "butting of heads".  The details are somewhat different on the same account.

Hypothetical - Car crash
Witness #1, yes he ran the red light and hit that truck.  His two passengers were okay.
Witness #2, yes he ran the red light and hit that truck.  The passenger next to him was fine.

There technically is not a "CONFLICT" but just small details are different.
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