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Author Topic: If Jesus came back this week  (Read 838 times) Average Rating: 0
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acts420
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« on: April 09, 2012, 02:09:15 PM »

If Jesus the Anointed One came back, not just this week but more "during this generation," then I strongly suspect many would eventually try to kill Him again.  I suspect this would occur in roughly the same manner it occurred 2000 years ago.  The rich would not like His teachings; they would hate His Word so much they would want Him gone.  Civil authorities, with their intimate connections to the rich, would therefore want Him gone also.  I suspect that even many so called authorities in the Churches, with their intimate connections to the civil authorities and to the rich, would ultimately want Him gone also.  Perhaps the people of God would even, again, ultimately be responsible for betraying Him to the civil authorities.  

Within the Churches there would be a small remnant of faithful that would either believe or would at least be open-minded enough to the Spirit to follow Him with whatever faith they had been given.  Even if His coming did not quite resemble the pattern that seemed to be prophesied, the Spirit would lead His own toward Him.  However, many would reject Him and would even try to kill Him.

Sometimes agnostic and other critics have said to me, "How can you believe that garbage about Jesus Christ?  You seriously think he rose again?  Oh, how convenient that he didn't appear to everyone after this alleged resurrection but instead only to a select number, right?"  My answer to that has long been, "Why would He show right back up in front of those who want him dead?  They'd probably convince themselves he must not have really died; they would just try again!"  

Even today, unfortunately, I suspect "they" (the same types who tried 2000 years ago) would try again, and they'd deceive many in the people of God and the world to join them.  Part of me wonders if God is waiting until we can straighten this mess out before sending Him back again.  He has provided our salvation.  However, too often we bicker about money or even bicker about how to experience Him best instead of simply being saved.  

I'm not trying to prophesy or anything.  These are just my thoughts.  What do you think?

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« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2012, 08:45:06 PM »

It's very possible.
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« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2012, 11:30:52 PM »

Well it depends. My biggest question is why didn't Jesus, even when He was here, make it obvious that He was truly God? He never directly answers anyone when they ask and always does just little miracles that still leave room for someone to doubt. Why didn't He and why won't He (If He came back again) do something absolutely 'amazing' or 'showy' like make it rain cupcakes or move a building without touching it etc. It's just like He always leaves it up to us to decide if He really is God and leaves us with barely enough evidence to believe He is and too little evidence to entirely crush all doubt. But if He did something like this then everyone would fall on their knees and worship Him. Why is it so hard for Him just to be plain and upfront about it? Anyway, assuming Jesus did come back, I would think that there would be greater peace among Christians and Muslims, however, I think that most right-wing politicians and wealthy people would absolutely despise Him; unfortunately, even some of the high ranking clergy in the Church who rely so much on wealth and politics. I think that many of the true believers would probably be exocommunicated by the Church.
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« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2012, 12:20:39 AM »

Would the Second Coming really be that uneventful?
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« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2012, 12:42:37 AM »

Much of this line of questioning is moot to me, personally, because I take the Bible part more literally about Christ "coming on the clouds of glory" (if that's not an exact wording, sorry) and that He warned not to believe any one who might say "He is here" or "He is there".  It will be a great sign of power and manifestation, of benefit to those who believed without seeing such a sign beforehand.  I am not sighing that I believe "unto salvation" (or other Protestantish wording) with this group.

Surely there are ample problems with literal readings of Scriptures, but my not being any sort of teacher or an intellectual heavyweight, I don't like to think about them.
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« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2012, 01:26:05 AM »

I think he would say to the Orthodox Church:

"I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name’s sake and have not become weary. Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent."
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« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2012, 01:43:54 AM »

Well it depends. My biggest question is why didn't Jesus, even when He was here, make it obvious that He was truly God? He never directly answers anyone when they ask and always does just little miracles that still leave room for someone to doubt. Why didn't He and why won't He (If He came back again) do something absolutely 'amazing' or 'showy' like make it rain cupcakes or move a building without touching it etc. It's just like He always leaves it up to us to decide if He really is God and leaves us with barely enough evidence to believe He is and too little evidence to entirely crush all doubt. But if He did something like this then everyone would fall on their knees and worship Him. Why is it so hard for Him just to be plain and upfront about it? Anyway, assuming Jesus did come back, I would think that there would be greater peace among Christians and Muslims, however, I think that most right-wing politicians and wealthy people would absolutely despise Him; unfortunately, even some of the high ranking clergy in the Church who rely so much on wealth and politics. I think that many of the true believers would probably be exocommunicated by the Church.


Because He gave us free will. Free to save yourself. Or not. To separate the "wheat from the chaff".

I've heard this explanation, though it does not satisfy me entirely...
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« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2012, 02:10:54 AM »

I think he would say to the Orthodox Church:

"I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name’s sake and have not become weary. Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent."

It's from triumph to triumph with you, lately. Awesome.
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« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2012, 04:35:13 AM »

Well it depends. My biggest question is why didn't Jesus, even when He was here, make it obvious that He was truly God? He never directly answers anyone when they ask and always does just little miracles that still leave room for someone to doubt. Why didn't He and why won't He (If He came back again) do something absolutely 'amazing' or 'showy' like make it rain cupcakes or move a building without touching it etc. It's just like He always leaves it up to us to decide if He really is God and leaves us with barely enough evidence to believe He is and too little evidence to entirely crush all doubt. But if He did something like this then everyone would fall on their knees and worship Him. Why is it so hard for Him just to be plain and upfront about it? Anyway, assuming Jesus did come back, I would think that there would be greater peace among Christians and Muslims, however, I think that most right-wing politicians and wealthy people would absolutely despise Him; unfortunately, even some of the high ranking clergy in the Church who rely so much on wealth and politics. I think that many of the true believers would probably be exocommunicated by the Church.


Because He gave us free will. Free to save yourself. Or not. To separate the "wheat from the chaff".

I've heard this explanation, though it does not satisfy me entirely...

What does leaving us ignorant have to do with free-will? Wouldn't free-will in its truest sense involve us knowing everything so that when we do actually make our decisions, no one has an excuse and we can be held accountable because we were aware? So the question comes back, why wouldn't Jesus do something big and flashy like make doughnuts fall from the sky or something that would be irrefutable proof that He is who He says He is?
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« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2012, 06:17:17 AM »

Well it depends. My biggest question is why didn't Jesus, even when He was here, make it obvious that He was truly God? He never directly answers anyone when they ask and always does just little miracles that still leave room for someone to doubt. Why didn't He and why won't He (If He came back again) do something absolutely 'amazing' or 'showy' like make it rain cupcakes or move a building without touching it etc. It's just like He always leaves it up to us to decide if He really is God and leaves us with barely enough evidence to believe He is and too little evidence to entirely crush all doubt. But if He did something like this then everyone would fall on their knees and worship Him. Why is it so hard for Him just to be plain and upfront about it? Anyway, assuming Jesus did come back, I would think that there would be greater peace among Christians and Muslims, however, I think that most right-wing politicians and wealthy people would absolutely despise Him; unfortunately, even some of the high ranking clergy in the Church who rely so much on wealth and politics. I think that many of the true believers would probably be exocommunicated by the Church.

Because He gave us free will. Free to save yourself. Or not. To separate the "wheat from the chaff".

I've heard this explanation, though it does not satisfy me entirely...

What does leaving us ignorant have to do with free-will? Wouldn't free-will in its truest sense involve us knowing everything so that when we do actually make our decisions, no one has an excuse and we can be held accountable because we were aware? So the question comes back, why wouldn't Jesus do something big and flashy like make doughnuts fall from the sky or something that would be irrefutable proof that He is who He says He is?

Read the parable of the rich man and Lazarus the beggar. And, even after Christ raised Lazarus of Bethany, who had been dead for four days and his body had begun to stink, that still wasn't enough "proof" for some that Christ was God. How much more proof do people need? Those who still did/do not believe have a problem, just like the rich man's brothers in the parable.
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« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2012, 07:51:15 AM »

If we're talking the First Coming, it's possible. Human nature hasn't changed much in the last 2000 years. It was prophecied that He would die, it was necessary for our salvation that He die, so I expect it would have happened regardless of when He came.

If we're talking the Second Coming, it will only be the Second Coming if the whole world sees it and knows. Christ said not to believe it if people said He was in some city or out in some desert. The glory of the Second Coming will drive every person to their knees in worship, whether they want to or not.
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« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2012, 12:39:48 PM »

If Jesus the Anointed One came back, not just this week but more "during this generation," then I strongly suspect many would eventually try to kill Him again.  I suspect this would occur in roughly the same manner it occurred 2000 years ago.  The rich would not like His teachings; they would hate His Word so much they would want Him gone.  Civil authorities, with their intimate connections to the rich, would therefore want Him gone also.  I suspect that even many so called authorities in the Churches, with their intimate connections to the civil authorities and to the rich, would ultimately want Him gone also.  Perhaps the people of God would even, again, ultimately be responsible for betraying Him to the civil authorities.  

Within the Churches there would be a small remnant of faithful that would either believe or would at least be open-minded enough to the Spirit to follow Him with whatever faith they had been given.  Even if His coming did not quite resemble the pattern that seemed to be prophesied, the Spirit would lead His own toward Him.  However, many would reject Him and would even try to kill Him.

Sometimes agnostic and other critics have said to me, "How can you believe that garbage about Jesus Christ?  You seriously think he rose again?  Oh, how convenient that he didn't appear to everyone after this alleged resurrection but instead only to a select number, right?"  My answer to that has long been, "Why would He show right back up in front of those who want him dead?  They'd probably convince themselves he must not have really died; they would just try again!"  

Even today, unfortunately, I suspect "they" (the same types who tried 2000 years ago) would try again, and they'd deceive many in the people of God and the world to join them.  Part of me wonders if God is waiting until we can straighten this mess out before sending Him back again.  He has provided our salvation.  However, too often we bicker about money or even bicker about how to experience Him best instead of simply being saved.  

I'm not trying to prophesy or anything.  These are just my thoughts.  What do you think?

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So you're saying that the governing provisional body would try and convict him for being a revolutionary after  being brought forward by a bunch hateful, religious Jews threatening the local magistrate with treason against the State?

Of course this all happens after these same Temple Jews bribe one this revolutionary's inner circle of followers.

Yea, I'm sure it would happen again under similar circumstances.

But he's coming back as a King this time, not a refugee in a stable.
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« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2012, 03:59:11 PM »

Well it depends. My biggest question is why didn't Jesus, even when He was here, make it obvious that He was truly God? He never directly answers anyone when they ask and always does just little miracles that still leave room for someone to doubt. Why didn't He and why won't He (If He came back again) do something absolutely 'amazing' or 'showy' like make it rain cupcakes or move a building without touching it etc. It's just like He always leaves it up to us to decide if He really is God and leaves us with barely enough evidence to believe He is and too little evidence to entirely crush all doubt. But if He did something like this then everyone would fall on their knees and worship Him. Why is it so hard for Him just to be plain and upfront about it? Anyway, assuming Jesus did come back, I would think that there would be greater peace among Christians and Muslims, however, I think that most right-wing politicians and wealthy people would absolutely despise Him; unfortunately, even some of the high ranking clergy in the Church who rely so much on wealth and politics. I think that many of the true believers would probably be exocommunicated by the Church.


Because He gave us free will. Free to save yourself. Or not. To separate the "wheat from the chaff".

I've heard this explanation, though it does not satisfy me entirely...

What does leaving us ignorant have to do with free-will? Wouldn't free-will in its truest sense involve us knowing everything so that when we do actually make our decisions, no one has an excuse and we can be held accountable because we were aware? So the question comes back, why wouldn't Jesus do something big and flashy like make doughnuts fall from the sky or something that would be irrefutable proof that He is who He says He is?

First of all i dont think they even had cupcakes or donuts back then.

I dont even think Dunkan dounuts was even in biz back then.

But you think cupcakes falling from the sky is a bigger mirical than......uhhmmm, i dont know say......PARTING THE SEA!!! or raising the dead.

I think lent is getting to you and your dreaming abt cupcakes and dougnuts falling from the sky Grin maybe u should break the fast and have a cupcake? Wink
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« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2012, 06:05:52 PM »

It would disappoint a lot of people for not being able to celebrate Pascha.
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« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2012, 07:38:42 PM »

I think he would say to the Orthodox Church:

"I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name’s sake and have not become weary. Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent."

I have to admit...this hit home with me when I read these verses a while ago
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« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2012, 06:57:20 PM »

Much of this line of questioning is moot to me, personally, because I take the Bible part more literally about Christ "coming on the clouds of glory"...

So also did Israel tend to take the part of the Bible more literally about "He will be a prince and a king."  In fact, they tended to take it so literally they stuck a crown of thorns into his skull while they killed His body.

Honestly, those who insist that I need to take the prophecies of the second coming more literally than the first coming's prophecies worry me.  I often see in them patterns similar to those I see in the Pharisees in Scripture.
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« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2012, 07:00:06 PM »

I think he would say to the Orthodox Church:

"I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name’s sake and have not become weary. Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent."

Amen
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« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2012, 07:01:34 PM »

My biggest question is why didn't Jesus, even when He was here, make it obvious that He was truly God?

It seems to me that Christ did make it obvious that He was truly God.  How many people do you know that said, "I Am," claimed to be the only Son of God all mankind can be saved through, prophesied his own death and resurrection, accomplished it, taught His followers about the Trinity, prophesied they'd receive the holy Spirit, and then accomplished that too?  That doesn't leave me much room to doubt.

He never directly answers anyone when they ask and always does just little miracles that still leave room for someone to doubt.

It does still leave some room though, you're right.  The thing is, there is always room to doubt.  God could show up in the clouds today and tell each one of us exactly what He wants us to do, and many of us would hate what He is telling us to do so much that we would convince ourselves He is the evil one.

Why didn't He and why won't He (If He came back again) do something absolutely 'amazing' or 'showy' like make it rain cupcakes or move a building without touching it etc. It's just like He always leaves it up to us to decide if He really is God and leaves us with barely enough evidence to believe He is and too little evidence to entirely crush all doubt.

You seem to believe that you would never reject Him if he made cupcakes fall from the sky for you.  However, He knows you better than you know yourself if He really is.

Consider this:  sometimes the way to train a dog to be more obedient to the master is not to always grab him by the ears, put your nose to his, and yell at him.  Sometimes gentle nudging is the better way.  God will reveal Himself to you if you ask Him to.  It probably won't be in the manner or time that you probably will expect, but I promise you this:  If you seek Him with all your heart and cry out for Him from the depth of your soul... you will find Him.

Many of us humans called Jesus Christ evil even though He came bringing miracles, healing, wine from water, and forgiveness.  We called Him evil for the times and manner in which He healed, for the types of people He forgave, for the "vile sinners" He associated with, and for the substances He put in His body.  Many of us would do the same thing to Him today.

But if He did something like this then everyone would fall on their knees and worship Him.

I respectfully disagree. God has done absolute, without-a-doubt miracles in my life.  And I've still doubted and even disobeyed Him... too many times.  The thing is, even after God proves Himself His same difficult commandments remain.  Parts of us hate Him intensely and much of what He stands for, whether we know it or not, and we talk ourselves out of Him.  Demons even try to influence our thoughts so we leave Him.  Unfortunately, it almost seems as if we're wired to disobey Him sometimes.  We're not.  We were created to obey Him.  And we can.  But God is Spirit, and learning to obey God is a spiritual process.  He can manifest Himself to us physicially, but that doesn't always help us obey him spiritually as much as we assume it will help.
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« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2012, 11:02:37 AM »

I agree completely with the opinion that he would be killed again.

Both by the governments of this world, and the churches.  The church hierarchy was rendered useless against him in his time on Earth (didn't care of their authority or money), he threw out the money changers (bankers, chargers of usury, and money exchangers).

If he came back and had that much influence as he did at his time, all the logic I can come up with would say they would kill him again.
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« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2012, 01:39:09 PM »

... If he came back and had that much influence as he did at his time, all the logic I can come up with would say they would kill him again.

I think they would certainly try.  I don't think the Father would allow it again though.  He was destined to die for us only once.  That's why part of me wonders if God is waiting until we can straighten this mess out before sending Him back again.  The world, and our churches, are too corrupt right now.
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« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2012, 05:14:01 PM »

If He came back this week, that would be one interesting Pascha. It would be even more interesting than the first one.
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« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2012, 05:43:48 PM »

Would the Second Coming really be that uneventful?

If you are able to call God in the flesh among us uneventful... then yes, I suppose it would be.
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« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2012, 06:02:32 PM »

....If we're talking the Second Coming, it will only be the Second Coming if the whole world sees it and knows. Christ said not to believe it if people said He was in some city or out in some desert. The glory of the Second Coming will drive every person to their knees in worship, whether they want to or not.

God threw a curve-ball at Israel because of their disobedience.  He came as a King wearing a crown of thorns.  The holy Apostle says Israel was grafted out and we (the Church) were grafted in.  But then he warns us, "Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either." (Romans 11)  God has the right to throw a curve-ball at us, and He might have to.

What if the Church is not quite as holy as she sometimes likes to think she is?  What if God stays true to his promise and has to throw another curve-ball.  What if Christ comes "in the clouds" in a way that we totally do not expect.  

For instance, see the internet that connects the whole world, also known as "cloud computing."   Think Christ on youtube.  If your mind is not open enough to accept that, then consider also that "the whole world" doesn't need to mean people on every continent or in every nation.  For instance, the Pharisees said, "Look how the whole world has gone after him!" meaning only the world around Him (John 12)  Or hear the holy Apostle Paul say, "the gospel is bearing fruit and growing throughout the whole world," even though it was not yet on every continent. (Colossians 1)  Or he also says, "your faith is being reported all over the world," even though at the time it was not being reported in every land under the sun, and Paul knew there were un-reached areas (Romans 1).  "Whole" doesn't always mean whole in the sense we think it does, and "every" doesn't always mean every in the sense we think it does either.

What if God is waiting until the Church does her job and brings more and more from darkness to light before stepping foot here gain?  What if it is our job to prepare the way for every knee to bow, like John the Forerunner?  What if many of us, even in the Church, are failing miserably at the task God has given us?
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 06:36:10 PM by acts420 » Logged

In Christ,
Jason
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Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
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« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2012, 10:32:22 PM »

... If he came back and had that much influence as he did at his time, all the logic I can come up with would say they would kill him again.

I think they would certainly try.  I don't think the Father would allow it again though.  He was destined to die for us only once.  That's why part of me wonders if God is waiting until we can straighten this mess out before sending Him back again.  The world, and our churches, are too corrupt right now.

Smiley

Well I meant it figuratively, that technically we are as corrupt as those who killed him in his time.
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