Author Topic: Ok, this seems off/wrong to me  (Read 786 times)

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Offline Quinault

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Ok, this seems off/wrong to me
« on: April 08, 2012, 09:49:49 PM »
http://stjames-cathedral.org/Tour/icons.htm

"Other icons incorporate portraits of parishioners at St. James and leaders of the Church in Seattle and beyond.  In this icon of the Exaltation of the Holy Cross, you can find Mother Teresa, Mother Cabrini, and Pope John Paul II, as well as Archbishop Brunett, Bishop George Thomas, Archbishop Murphy, and many more."

I can't imagine this being OK in the Orthodox church. Why is it OK in the Catholic church?

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Re: Ok, this seems off/wrong to me
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2012, 09:53:39 PM »
Just be happy it's not completely hideous 70's dreck

Offline Quinault

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Re: Ok, this seems off/wrong to me
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2012, 10:03:15 PM »
http://www.stjames-cathedral.org/pubs/midst/05March/icons.htm

More on the iconographer

Quote
Joan’s icons offer a few surprises for parishioners of St. James. Father Ryan appears in a number of them. Joan credits Father Ryan’s support and enthusiasm for encouraging her to continue writing icons. In Brand-Landkamer’s icons, Father Ryan stands beside Thomas at the Resurrection, or sits among the apostles in the Pentecost icon. He is Constantine in the Exaltation of the Cross, with his real-life mother next to him. A white orchid corsage also appears in several icons, a Mother’s Day gift to Joan from her son. People and things she loves and is moved by make their way into her creative process. Other parishioners and family members appear as well, such as a sweetly smiling portrait of Archbishop Murphy. Joan hopes these images may one day serve history as records of St. James Cathedral and its community at the turn of the twenty-first century.

The lettering in her icons are all in the Cyrillic alphabet. Though English is sometimes used on icons in English-speaking countries, Joan prefers the mystery of the old language. She also insists on working with the very best ingredients, egg tempera and 24k gold on panels of cherry wood her son cuts for her.

So she feels that using Cyrillic is important to maintain the "mystery of the old language" but doesn't feel that replacing, adding and subtracting people at will in icons is an issue?
« Last Edit: April 08, 2012, 10:28:29 PM by Quinault »

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Ok, this seems off/wrong to me
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2012, 10:24:31 PM »


This looks like a bad photoshopping job of the Exaltation of the Cross icon. I know that's what it's supposed to be, but the photorealistic heads and wierd poses make it look like a bad shop.

Honestly, how disrespectful of a tradition can you be... Do they think this somehow honors the Russian iconographic tradition? Should we do a mock sistine chapel with a bobblehead version of St. Mark of Ephesus in it?
« Last Edit: April 08, 2012, 10:29:07 PM by NicholasMyra »
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Ok, this seems off/wrong to me
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2012, 10:37:41 PM »


This looks like a bad photoshopping job of the Exaltation of the Cross icon. I know that's what it's supposed to be, but the photorealistic heads and wierd poses make it look like a bad shop.

Honestly, how disrespectful of a tradition can you be... Do they think this somehow honors the Russian iconographic tradition? Should we do a mock sistine chapel with a bobblehead version of St. Mark of Ephesus in it?

I am afraid it mocked itself. Mickey did some kinda shake down on them for not letting him make sculptures of strapping men.
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Offline Melodist

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Re: Ok, this seems off/wrong to me
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2012, 10:43:30 PM »
It seems wrong because it is. This isn't a matter of cultural expression, but of the artist making it about herself by adding personal details about her life and making it about her audience by adding details that are specific to them, subtracting from the theme of the image.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Re: Ok, this seems off/wrong to me
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2012, 10:49:30 PM »
Well cut them some slack, they've been out of practice since Cimabue

Offline Quinault

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Re: Ok, this seems off/wrong to me
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2012, 10:57:54 PM »
I know this has been moved to a place where debate can take place. But I honestly would like to know why/how this sort of thing is OK in the Catholic church. I don't know a great deal about art in the Catholic church. Is it taken as a given that the artist will personalize/change sacred art as they see fit? Is the subject in general more important than the content and methodology?

If there are any Catholic posters that would like to weigh in I would appreciate it.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2012, 10:58:33 PM by Quinault »

Offline LBK

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Re: Ok, this seems off/wrong to me
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2012, 11:17:46 PM »
Quote
I can't imagine this being OK in the Orthodox church. Why is it OK in the Catholic church?

The answer is simple, Quinault. The RCs have lost, many centuries ago, any sense of what iconography is about, as Iconodule aptly put it. The combination of this loss of continuity and the freewheeling religious spirit of the past 40 years or so has led to such schlock as this. Pope John Paul II holding up the Cross? What on earth possessed the artist to commit such an atrocity?
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Ok, this seems off/wrong to me
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2012, 11:28:35 PM »
Well cut them some slack, they've been out of practice since Cimabue
What about Duccio?
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Offline Jason.Wike

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Re: Ok, this seems off/wrong to me
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2012, 02:07:00 AM »
There's an abbey basilica nearby where all the Celtic and Anglo-Saxon Saints in the windows are black.. Supposed to be some political junk, like pretending people that were white as all get out were black is somehow meaningful. It would be more meaningful to have depicted actual black and white Saints as they are.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 02:07:57 AM by Jason.Wike »

Online Charles Martel

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Re: Ok, this seems off/wrong to me
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2012, 09:59:18 AM »
I know this has been moved to a place where debate can take place. But I honestly would like to know why/how this sort of thing is OK in the Catholic church. I don't know a great deal about art in the Catholic church. Is it taken as a given that the artist will personalize/change sacred art as they see fit? Is the subject in general more important than the content and methodology?

If there are any Catholic posters that would like to weigh in I would appreciate it.
I'm sure in part to the "spirit" of Vatican II or something to that effect.

I don't know too much about Iconic art so I can't really comment on the rules thereof.

But the JPII the "great" worship to me is pretty pathetic.

Maybe they should make an Icon of him kissing the Koran.  >:(
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Offline Punch

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Re: Ok, this seems off/wrong to me
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2012, 05:03:45 PM »
In my study of Western art, I saw many paintings, but private and in Churches, that contained then modern people in them.  These were all RC, and it seems like this practice has been going on to some degree for centuries.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline William

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Re: Ok, this seems off/wrong to me
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2012, 12:52:31 PM »
Do Byzantine icons ever depict patrons?
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Re: Ok, this seems off/wrong to me
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2012, 07:18:38 PM »
Do Byzantine icons ever depict patrons?

I've seen a few.
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