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Author Topic: The #1 Reason I am Considering Orthodoxy  (Read 536 times) Average Rating: 0
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byhisgrace
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« on: December 22, 2014, 11:29:33 PM »

The #1 reason I am considering Orthodoxy is that it believes in the Recapitulation Theory of Atonement. According to Wikipedia, the Recapitulation Theory dates much earlier in Church History than the ones popular in Catholicism and Protestantism (i.e. Satisfaction and Penal-Substitution, respectively.) By this fact alone, the Recapitulation Theory seems to be the most likely "candidate" of Apostolic truth. 

The idea that sin is a sickness rather than a debt seems very attractive to me, as it makes God more of a doctor/healer than a judge/prosecutor. However, if I want to make a life-changing decision based on a single theological difference, I better be sure to check if it is on a strong foundation. I need Scripture verses that support the Recapitulation Theory and/or refutes the Satisfaction/Penal-Substitution theories. I know that Ephesians 1:10 supports it, but I need more than one verse, as I don't want my entire faith to stand or fall on just one verse. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks!
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byhisgrace
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« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2014, 11:39:23 PM »

However, if I want to make a life-changing decision based on a single theological difference, I better be sure to check if it is on a strong foundation.

Let me clarify on this statement. I don't mean to say that the Recapitulation Theory is the only reason I'm considering Orthodoxy. I know a lot about the theological/ecumenical differences between the East and the West. However, this theory of atonement is almost at the stage of being the "clicker" to me, even more compelling than the arguments against Papal Supremacy and Sola Scriptura!  
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« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2014, 02:06:11 AM »

Good to hear. Smiley
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« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2014, 04:47:56 AM »

It's good probably but I have no idea what that is.
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« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2014, 05:33:09 AM »

Have you looked into what is sometimes called Christus Victor?

Although the Recapitulation Theory also seems compatible with what I have been taught.
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« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2014, 08:00:51 PM »

The #1 reason I am considering Orthodoxy is that it believes in the Recapitulation Theory of Atonement. According to Wikipedia, the Recapitulation Theory dates much earlier in Church History than the ones popular in Catholicism and Protestantism (i.e. Satisfaction and Penal-Substitution, respectively.) By this fact alone, the Recapitulation Theory seems to be the most likely "candidate" of Apostolic truth. 

The idea that sin is a sickness rather than a debt seems very attractive to me, as it makes God more of a doctor/healer than a judge/prosecutor. However, if I want to make a life-changing decision based on a single theological difference, I better be sure to check if it is on a strong foundation. I need Scripture verses that support the Recapitulation Theory and/or refutes the Satisfaction/Penal-Substitution theories. I know that Ephesians 1:10 supports it, but I need more than one verse, as I don't want my entire faith to stand or fall on just one verse. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks!

Glory to God!

Yes, I think the less truth some proposal contains, simply the more irksome in every way it becomes as generations pass -- I think this is felt by many young Protestants. I suppose a different way to put what I'm trying to express is that the Orthodox way is not only the better way, as many inquirers can feel, but also, gratefully, the truer way.
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« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2014, 08:33:02 PM »

I need Scripture verses that support the Recapitulation Theory and/or refutes the Satisfaction/Penal-Substitution theories. I know that Ephesians 1:10 supports it, but I need more than one verse, as I don't want my entire faith to stand or fall on just one verse.

Mark 2:17/Luke 5:32 will do you? Assuming that the Parables of the Lost Sheep and the Prodigal Son are not good enough for you...
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« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2014, 08:41:44 PM »

... I know that Ephesians 1:10 supports it, but I need more than one verse, as I don't want my entire faith to stand or fall on just one verse. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks!

Really all you need is to read some of the New Testament again in this new light. If you can do so coherently, soon the whole shape of the thing will stand out clearly to you. Proof texts -- although plenty could be isolated -- is more of a Protestant thing.
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« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2014, 08:53:39 PM »

Proof texts -- although plenty could be isolated -- is more of a Protestant thing.

Many Church Fathers (especially from 7th century on) loved to compile lists of quotes (florilegia), which came in handy when proof texts against heresy were needed. As I said in the other thread, I'd recommend you reading the Fathers more.
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byhisgrace
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« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2014, 10:12:30 PM »

Have you looked into what is sometimes called Christus Victor?

Although the Recapitulation Theory also seems compatible with what I have been taught.
Yes, I would agree with you that Christus Victor and the Recapitulation theory can both be true at the same time.
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byhisgrace
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« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2014, 10:45:34 PM »

I need Scripture verses that support the Recapitulation Theory and/or refutes the Satisfaction/Penal-Substitution theories. I know that Ephesians 1:10 supports it, but I need more than one verse, as I don't want my entire faith to stand or fall on just one verse.

Mark 2:17/Luke 5:32 will do you? Assuming that the Parables of the Lost Sheep and the Prodigal Son are not good enough for you...
Yes, Mark 2:17/Luke 5:32 are good verses. However, I suspect that supporters of Satisfaction/Penal-Substitution (I'll shorten it to S/PS) would argue that those who owe God a "debt" for their sins are "sick" in a spiritual way. What would be your response to this?

Can you explain for me the Orthodox understanding of Romans 6:23? It seems to clearly indicate that sin brings about a "wage," and thus a debt owed to someone.

With that said, I thank you for bringing up the Parable of the Prodigal Son, as it got me thinking this: notice that the father never asked anyone to pay for the money that the son squandered.       
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byhisgrace
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« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2014, 11:13:11 PM »

... I know that Ephesians 1:10 supports it, but I need more than one verse, as I don't want my entire faith to stand or fall on just one verse. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks!

Really all you need is to read some of the New Testament again in this new light. If you can do so coherently, soon the whole shape of the thing will stand out clearly to you.
Hey, great idea! I'll read the entire New Testament once more, and see how that goes!
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« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2014, 11:21:45 PM »

... I know that Ephesians 1:10 supports it, but I need more than one verse, as I don't want my entire faith to stand or fall on just one verse. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks!

Really all you need is to read some of the New Testament again in this new light. If you can do so coherently, soon the whole shape of the thing will stand out clearly to you.
Hey, great idea! I'll read the entire New Testament once more, and see how that goes!

I find coherence is greatly aided by reading a version that's in paragraphs rather than verses and that isn't cluttered with Protestant notes and subtitles. In fact, let me just go ahead and recommend this:

http://www.amazon.com/New-Testament-Richmond-Lattimore/dp/0865475245/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1419391289&sr=8-1&keywords=lattimore+new+testament

(If you'd like a free copy in readable condition, just PM me.)
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byhisgrace
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« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2014, 12:36:17 AM »

I find coherence is greatly aided by reading a version that's in paragraphs rather than verses...
Forgive me if I am oversimplifying what you are really saying, but: Isn't that why most Bible versions divide passages into sections, where the title of the section is not in the Canon itself? For example, in the ESV, John 7:53-8:11 is under the title, "The Woman Caught in Adultery."
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« Reply #14 on: December 25, 2014, 08:53:18 PM »

The Scriptures don't necessarily support either Atonement theory more than the other. It's more so the way you interpret them that determines which Atonement model to believe in. Given that most of the Fathers seemed to hold something more similar to Recapitulation and Christus Victor, I find it to be not only the more historically authentic model, but also the more logical model opposed to the Penal models which seems to only be fully developed during the Middle Ages.

I'd suggest reading the Scriptures with the Fathers in mind, trying to keep sort of an open mind. Coming from a Western background, it's very hard to understand the Scriptures without the bias that's been indoctrinated into us since birth. But once you can drop it, you will see that the Scriptures can mean many more things than you may have initially thought as a Western Christian, especially when you take the Fathers and history into account.
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« Reply #15 on: December 25, 2014, 08:56:33 PM »

... I know that Ephesians 1:10 supports it, but I need more than one verse, as I don't want my entire faith to stand or fall on just one verse. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks!

Really all you need is to read some of the New Testament again in this new light. If you can do so coherently, soon the whole shape of the thing will stand out clearly to you.
Hey, great idea! I'll read the entire New Testament once more, and see how that goes!
Doing this, more than reading all the many books on Orthodoxy, helped me choose the Church.
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