OrthodoxChristianity.net
November 26, 2014, 09:07:58 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Does the Orthodox Church  (Read 1139 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
lost
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 296


« on: April 07, 2012, 12:54:05 PM »

.. really believe that Christ used leavened bread at the Last Supper?
Logged
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 12,711


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2012, 02:49:27 PM »

From what I can understand, leavened bread and unleavened bread have two different words in Greek.  In English, we use an adjective, but in Greek, two completely different words are used.  With that in mind, I believe, if I'm not mistaken, the gospels use the Greek word for leavened bread.
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Benjamin the Red
Recovering Calvinist
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America, Diocese of Dallas and the South ||| American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 1,601


Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.


« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2012, 03:04:56 PM »

I'm unsure of the Greek, maybe I'll look it up later to check it out.

However, my understanding of the leavened vs. unleavened bread debate is the different chronologies of the Gospels. According to the Synoptics, the Mystical Supper was also a Passover Seder. According to St. John, it is not. The Orthodox choose to follow the witness of St. John, and therefore use leavened. The West went the route of the Synoptics, and use unleavened.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2012, 03:05:17 PM by Benjamin the Red » Logged

"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy
sheenj
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Indian/Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church
Posts: 1,402


St. Gregorios of Parumala, pray for us...


« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2012, 04:44:59 PM »

I'm unsure of the Greek, maybe I'll look it up later to check it out.

However, my understanding of the leavened vs. unleavened bread debate is the different chronologies of the Gospels. According to the Synoptics, the Mystical Supper was also a Passover Seder. According to St. John, it is not. The Orthodox choose to follow the witness of St. John, and therefore use leavened. The West went the route of the Synoptics, and use unleavened.
I believe St. Paul agrees with St. John on the matter as well.
Logged
lost
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 296


« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2012, 04:59:08 PM »

actually the meaning of the greek 'artos' is pretty wide... it can and if i remmeber exactly it is used interchangebly for any sort of bread.. my question is strictly regarding to what the Orthodox Church believes about the type of bread that was being used at the Last Supper.. If Jesus would of use leavened bread wouldn`t he be breaking the Law and thus sinning?What does the Church have to say on this?
Logged
sheenj
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Indian/Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church
Posts: 1,402


St. Gregorios of Parumala, pray for us...


« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2012, 05:07:52 PM »

actually the meaning of the greek 'artos' is pretty wide... it can and if i remmeber exactly it is used interchangebly for any sort of bread.. my question is strictly regarding to what the Orthodox Church believes about the type of bread that was being used at the Last Supper.. If Jesus would of use leavened bread wouldn`t he be breaking the Law and thus sinning?What does the Church have to say on this?
IIRC, the Orthodox Church believes that Jesus dined with his disciples on Thursday afternoon, before the Feast of the Unleavened Bread had started.
Logged
xariskai
юродивый/yurodivy
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,436


יהוה עזי ומגני


« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2012, 05:20:17 PM »

Debates re. the biblical texts notwithstanding, that the Church (East and West -all regions) did not use unleavened bread for the Eucharist until the 9th century AD is the unanimous verdict of contemporary historical scholarship (see below). The only exceptions to this were the Ebionites (earliest example) and the Armenians who introduced unleavened bread in the 7th century. If I'm not mistaken, Alcuin, an 8th century scholar in the court of Charlemagne, provides the earliest undisputed reference to Eucharistic usage of unleavened bread in the Roman Catholic Church. Whether the NT presents a contradictory picture, or whether the data of the Synoptics vs. John may be harmonized to defend one or the other pictures therein is still disputed in contemporary scholarship.[1]
____________
[1]A few excerpts, including footnotes, from Jonathan Klawans, “Was Jesus’ Last Supper a Sedar?” (Biblical Archaeology Review) http://www.bib-arch.org/e-features/jesus-last-supper.asp#note23r

"Contrary to popular belief, the Catholic custom of using unleavened wafers in the Mass is medieval in origin. The Orthodox churches preserve the earlier custom of using leavened bread.23 Is it not possible to see the switch from using leavened to unleavened bread as a “Passoverization” of sorts?"

23. On the medieval debate between the Catholic and Orthodox churches on this matter, see Jaroslav Pelikan, The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine, vol. 2, The Spirit of Eastern Christendom (600–1700) (Chicago: Univ. of Chicago Press, 1971), pp. 177–178. On the archaeological evidence pertaining to this dispute, see George Galavaris, Bread and the Liturgy: The Symbolism of Early Christian and Byzantine Bread Stamps (Madison: Univ. of Wisconsin Press, 1970).

“I want to operate here under the opposite assumptions: that the Gospels can tell us about the historical Jesus,3 and that rabbinic sources can be used—with caution—to reconstruct what Jews at the time of Jesus might have believed and practiced.4 Even so, I do not think the Last Supper was a Passover Seder.”

...A number of scholars now believe that the ritual context for the Last Supper was not a Seder but a standard Jewish meal. That Christians celebrated the Eucharist on a daily or weekly basis (see Acts 2:46–47) underscores the fact that it was not viewed exclusively in a Passover context (otherwise, it would have been performed, like the Passover meal, on an annual basis).

"An ancient Christian church manual called the Didache also suggests that the Last Supper may have been an ordinary Jewish meal. In Chapters 9 and 10 of the Didache, the eucharistic prayers are remarkably close to the Jewish Grace After Meals (Birkat ha-Mazon).
« Last Edit: April 07, 2012, 05:51:58 PM by xariskai » Logged

Silly Stars
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2012, 06:18:40 PM »

I'm unsure of the Greek, maybe I'll look it up later to check it out.

However, my understanding of the leavened vs. unleavened bread debate is the different chronologies of the Gospels. According to the Synoptics, the Mystical Supper was also a Passover Seder. According to St. John, it is not. The Orthodox choose to follow the witness of St. John, and therefore use leavened. The West went the route of the Synoptics, and use unleavened.

The West used leavened bread in the Eucharist until the 8th century--and then it was only Rome. It took several centuries for the innovation to spread.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,621



« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2012, 07:04:05 PM »

.. really believe that Christ used leavened bread at the Last Supper?

Dude, I dunno, but some RCs think this was on the menu:

Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2012, 07:17:49 PM »

.. really believe that Christ used leavened bread at the Last Supper?

I'm going to be honest, I don't even look at the type of bread as a strict "historical re-enactment", but at what is being said theologically by the use of leavened bread - that Christ our true Bread is risen. The argument for unleavened bread in the west is that it represents Christ's sinlessness (any RC correct me if I'm wrong about this). Theologically, both are true. Historically, I don't know exactly when anyone started using unleavened bread, but I do know it wasn't divisive until after we were already headed for schism.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
Gamliel
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 2,289



« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2012, 07:49:20 PM »

.. really believe that Christ used leavened bread at the Last Supper?

I'm going to be honest, I don't even look at the type of bread as a strict "historical re-enactment", but at what is being said theologically by the use of leavened bread - that Christ our true Bread is risen. The argument for unleavened bread in the west is that it represents Christ's sinlessness (any RC correct me if I'm wrong about this). Theologically, both are true. Historically, I don't know exactly when anyone started using unleavened bread, but I do know it wasn't divisive until after we were already headed for schism.
+
Logged
lost
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 296


« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2012, 06:58:31 AM »

.. really believe that Christ used leavened bread at the Last Supper?

I'm going to be honest, I don't even look at the type of bread as a strict "historical re-enactment", but at what is being said theologically by the use of leavened bread - that Christ our true Bread is risen. The argument for unleavened bread in the west is that it represents Christ's sinlessness (any RC correct me if I'm wrong about this). Theologically, both are true. Historically, I don't know exactly when anyone started using unleavened bread, but I do know it wasn't divisive until after we were already headed for schism.

Me also.But I am curious, does the Church assert that Christ consumed leavened at the Last Supper?Take it anywas you want.. It was considered a sin to have and consume leaven bread even if it was the First Day of Unleaven or the Preparation Day.On the Preparation Day they needed to get rid of all the yeast.It is written in the Law :"Everyone that consumed leavened shall be cut off from Israel" .
Logged
xariskai
юродивый/yurodivy
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,436


יהוה עזי ומגני


« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2012, 02:54:26 PM »

It was considered a sin to have and consume leaven bread even if it was the First Day of Unleaven or the Preparation Day.On the Preparation Day they needed to get rid of all the yeast.It is written in the Law :"Everyone that consumed leavened shall be cut off from Israel" .

The first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread was the day after Passover.[1] It was on the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread that the Torah specified all leaven was to be removed from Israelite homes.[2]
_______
[1]Lev 23:5-8: 5: "In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight is the LORD’S Passover. 6 Then on the fifteenth day of the same month there is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the LORD; for seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. 7 On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall not do any laborious work. 8 But for seven days you shall present an offering by fire to the LORD. On the seventh day is a holy convocation; you shall not do any laborious work.’”

[2]Ex 12:15: "Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, but on the first day you shall remove leaven from your houses; for whoever eats anything leavened from the first day until the seventh day, that person shall be cut off from Israel"
« Last Edit: April 08, 2012, 03:09:43 PM by xariskai » Logged

Silly Stars
lost
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 296


« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2012, 02:12:58 PM »

It was considered a sin to have and consume leaven bread even if it was the First Day of Unleaven or the Preparation Day.On the Preparation Day they needed to get rid of all the yeast.It is written in the Law :"Everyone that consumed leavened shall be cut off from Israel" .

The first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread was the day after Passover.[1] It was on the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread that the Torah specified all leaven was to be removed from Israelite homes.[2]
_______
[1]Lev 23:5-8: 5: "In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight is the LORD’S Passover. 6 Then on the fifteenth day of the same month there is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the LORD; for seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. 7 On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall not do any laborious work. 8 But for seven days you shall present an offering by fire to the LORD. On the seventh day is a holy convocation; you shall not do any laborious work.’”

[2]Ex 12:15: "Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, but on the first day you shall remove leaven from your houses; for whoever eats anything leavened from the first day until the seventh day, that person shall be cut off from Israel"

Mark 14
12And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?
16And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
Logged
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Warned
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 14,425


fleem
WWW
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2012, 07:00:01 PM »

They killed the passover?   Huh
Logged

Charlie Rose: "If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?"

Fran Lebowitz: "Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisified."

spcasuncoast.org
Jonathan Gress
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOC/HOTCA
Posts: 3,685


« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2012, 08:05:20 PM »

Even if the Passover had begun, the disciples didn't actually eat bread, but Christ's Body.
Logged
Jonathan Gress
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOC/HOTCA
Posts: 3,685


« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2012, 08:08:02 PM »

They killed the passover?   Huh

I think it means they killed the lamb that was to be eaten for Passover.
Logged
Jonathan Gress
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOC/HOTCA
Posts: 3,685


« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2012, 08:17:05 PM »

It was considered a sin to have and consume leaven bread even if it was the First Day of Unleaven or the Preparation Day.On the Preparation Day they needed to get rid of all the yeast.It is written in the Law :"Everyone that consumed leavened shall be cut off from Israel" .

The first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread was the day after Passover.[1] It was on the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread that the Torah specified all leaven was to be removed from Israelite homes.[2]
_______
[1]Lev 23:5-8: 5: "In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight is the LORD’S Passover. 6 Then on the fifteenth day of the same month there is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the LORD; for seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. 7 On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall not do any laborious work. 8 But for seven days you shall present an offering by fire to the LORD. On the seventh day is a holy convocation; you shall not do any laborious work.’”

[2]Ex 12:15: "Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, but on the first day you shall remove leaven from your houses; for whoever eats anything leavened from the first day until the seventh day, that person shall be cut off from Israel"

Mark 14
12And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?
16And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.

Jews today observe Passover for eight days, but don't they start abstaining from leaven on the very first day, when they have the Seder? Possibly that is a later innovation.

Could there have been variation in the terminology? For instance, "first day of unleavened bread" might actually have meant the day of Passover on which all leaven had to be consumed or otherwise removed from the household.

It seems that it wasn't only illegal to eat leaven, but even to have it in the house, so the presence of leavened bread at the Last Supper needs some explaining, even if you can argue that it ceased to be actual bread according to Christ's words of institution.
Logged
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Warned
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 14,425


fleem
WWW
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2012, 08:25:13 PM »

They killed the passover?   Huh

I think it means they killed the lamb that was to be eaten for Passover.

Ah. Okay.  Wink
Logged

Charlie Rose: "If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?"

Fran Lebowitz: "Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisified."

spcasuncoast.org
yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 4,415


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2012, 08:26:24 PM »

I'm glad soda bread does not go in this argument Smiley   Nice and fluffy and no yeast.  

From what I know the guys above have it accurate.  I've heard both the Greek refers to leavened bread through St. John and Paul.

LOL @ the last supper with BBQ raccoon painting..... Just wow.
Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,621



« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2012, 08:48:06 PM »

I'm glad soda bread does not go in this argument Smiley   Nice and fluffy and no yeast.  

From what I know the guys above have it accurate.  I've heard both the Greek refers to leavened bread through St. John and Paul.

LOL @ the last supper with BBQ raccoon painting..... Just wow.

It's guinea pig. It is from Peru. A common staple throughout Central and South America.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Tags: Last Supper 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.091 seconds with 48 queries.