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Author Topic: Orthodox patriarch hits at “unacceptable” attacks on ecumenism  (Read 7312 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: April 08, 2012, 10:33:50 PM »

Yeah but those people would have even denounced a certain Mark, who was bishop of Ephesus, as being an ecumenist, so I'd take their words with a grain of salt.

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« Reply #46 on: April 09, 2012, 03:49:11 AM »

Engagement with non-Orthodox I believe is fine, but it needs to be on the basis of sharing the the True Faith of the Undivided Church, not on the basis of accepting that the Church is divided - the Anglican branch theory, which invariably involves major compromises with the faith.
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« Reply #47 on: April 09, 2012, 06:44:48 AM »

Clearly the Phanar believe that Latin Catholics are also in the Church i.e. that the Eastern Orthodox and Latin Catholic Churches are one and the same:

Quote
This quote, from the official publication of the Œcumenical Patriarchate, "Episkepsis," (No. 520, July 31, 1995, p. 19) is also worth mentioning here:

In a joint communiquée, signed on June 29, 1995, Pope John Paul II and Patriarch Bartholomew expressed their acceptance of the Balamand principles. Their communiquée includes the following statement: "The Joint Commission [which met at Balamand] was able to proclaim that our Churches are recognized mutually as Sister Churches, responsible together for the preservation of the One Church of God."/quote]
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« Reply #48 on: April 09, 2012, 07:46:44 AM »

Clearly the Phanar believe that Latin Catholics are also in the Church i.e. that the Eastern Orthodox and Latin Catholic Churches are one and the same:

It is the Russian Church that has for centuries accepted Latin sacraments as gracefilled and has received Catholics by mere confession of faith. While I disagree strongly with many of the EP's positions on the issue, to pejoratively single out the Phanar as the author and propagator of such ideas is dishonestly selective.
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« Reply #49 on: April 09, 2012, 08:22:04 AM »

Not to mention speaking of "the Anglican branch theory" as though no one else what touch such an idea.
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« Reply #50 on: April 09, 2012, 08:35:16 AM »

Not to mention speaking of "the Anglican branch theory" as though no one else what touch such an idea.

I suppose the difference there is that while such a theory is essentially foreign to the traditional ecclesologies of the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches, although many from both groups essentially agree with it, the Anglican Church's understanding itself as an Apostolic Church necessitates such an idea.
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« Reply #51 on: April 09, 2012, 11:19:09 AM »

Not to mention speaking of "the Anglican branch theory" as though no one else what touch such an idea.

I suppose the difference there is that while such a theory is essentially foreign to the traditional ecclesologies of the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches, although many from both groups essentially agree with it, the Anglican Church's understanding itself as an Apostolic Church necessitates such an idea.

Rather, the Anglican Communion's understanding itself as one Apostolic Church among others necessitates such an idea.
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« Reply #52 on: April 09, 2012, 11:32:55 AM »

As stated in other topics, ecumenism should not even be on the plate until the Easterners and Orientals have reunited.

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« Reply #53 on: April 09, 2012, 11:40:58 AM »

As stated in other topics, ecumenism should not even be on the plate until the Easterners and Orientals have reunited.

PP

I don't doubt many EOs feels that way. Then, once that's accomplished, will you/they say that ecumenism with Protestants should not be on the plate until the Orthodox and Catholics have reunited?
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« Reply #54 on: April 09, 2012, 11:53:04 AM »

As stated in other topics, ecumenism should not even be on the plate until the Easterners and Orientals have reunited.

PP

I don't doubt many EOs feels that way. Then, once that's accomplished, will you/they say that ecumenism with Protestants should not be on the plate until the Orthodox and Catholics have reunited?
I can't say that for sure. I just believe that we need to heal one wound at a time. Focus on one thing at a time.

PP
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« Reply #55 on: April 09, 2012, 12:17:26 PM »

As stated in other topics, ecumenism should not even be on the plate until the Easterners and Orientals have reunited.

PP

I don't doubt many EOs feels that way. Then, once that's accomplished, will you/they say that ecumenism with Protestants should not be on the plate until the Orthodox and Catholics have reunited?
I can't say that for sure. I just believe that we need to heal one wound at a time. Focus on one thing at a time.

PP

Alright, I appreciate an honest answer, but I have to admit it's a little odd that you can say the one for sure but not the other.
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« Reply #56 on: April 09, 2012, 12:20:03 PM »

I don't doubt many EOs feels that way.

Most EO are fairly ignorant of the OO. Of course, few EO would deem dialogue with Monophysites who deny the humanity of Christ more important than dialogue with Catholics who are dogmatically very similar. However, among the EO who are well-read on the subject, I think such an approach to ecumenism is quite popular.
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« Reply #57 on: April 09, 2012, 12:21:51 PM »

Quote
Alright, I appreciate an honest answer, but I have to admit it's a little odd that you can say the one for sure but not the other
I thought you were going to reference my bloody battle about the WCC and my hatred for it Smiley LOL

yeah i know it can be odd. I wish I had a better answer for you concerning the other talks. I guess I just feel so sad about the OO and EO problems because so much of the injuries concerning this are self-inflicted.

PP
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« Reply #58 on: April 09, 2012, 07:50:01 PM »

As stated in other topics, ecumenism should not even be on the plate until the Easterners and Orientals have reunited.

PP

I don't doubt many EOs feels that way. Then, once that's accomplished, will you/they say that ecumenism with Protestants should not be on the plate until the Orthodox and Catholics have reunited?
I can't say that for sure. I just believe that we need to heal one wound at a time. Focus on one thing at a time.

PP

Alright, I appreciate an honest answer, but I have to admit it's a little odd that you can say the one for sure but not the other.

These types of assessments are directly tied to one's assessment of how realistic reunion actually is. Many EO and OO see such reunion as realistic and can see a (fairly) clear path forward as to how that might happen, and therefore we feel a great deal of urgency with regards to it. On the other hand, while there a few Orthodox who are optimistic about talks with Rome, a great many of us can not see any realistic path forward on it. As discussed on the other thread, the Papacy itself remains the greatest point of disagreement between RC and Orthodoxy, and I have yet to see a realistic proposal which would alter the Papacy's self-understanding enough to be acceptable to Orthodoxy that does not gut the modern Papacy's very raison d'etre--and betrays those RCs who sincerely believe in the teaching of their Church (particularly as enshrined in V1).

Without any realistic path forward for coming to agreement on the Papacy there's no reason to prioritize talks with Rome over those with Protestant groups who may be further, in general terms, from Orthodoxy, but have understandings of authority/tradition/etc which would realistically allow them to move towards Orthodoxy in a way Rome simply can't.
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« Reply #59 on: April 09, 2012, 10:22:22 PM »

As stated in other topics, ecumenism should not even be on the plate until the Easterners and Orientals have reunited.

PP

I don't doubt many EOs feels that way. Then, once that's accomplished, will you/they say that ecumenism with Protestants should not be on the plate until the Orthodox and Catholics have reunited?
I can't say that for sure. I just believe that we need to heal one wound at a time. Focus on one thing at a time.

PP

Alright, I appreciate an honest answer, but I have to admit it's a little odd that you can say the one for sure but not the other.

These types of assessments are directly tied to one's assessment of how realistic reunion actually is. Many EO and OO see such reunion as realistic and can see a (fairly) clear path forward as to how that might happen, and therefore we feel a great deal of urgency with regards to it. On the other hand, while there a few Orthodox who are optimistic about talks with Rome, a great many of us can not see any realistic path forward on it.

What you're saying is certainly understandable, especially since a lot of Catholics say something similar but with different names filled in: namely, that Catholics and Orthodox are ultra- extremely close to reunion, but reunion with Protestants is light years away. (I don't recall which website said that reunion with Orthodoxy would be a "slam dunk", but the phrase "slam dunk" has stayed with me for years.) But whether your assessment is accurate is another question.

As discussed on the other thread, the Papacy itself remains the greatest point of disagreement between RC and Orthodoxy, and I have yet to see a realistic proposal which would alter the Papacy's self-understanding enough to be acceptable to Orthodoxy that does not gut the modern Papacy's very raison d'etre--and betrays those RCs who sincerely believe in the teaching of their Church (particularly as enshrined in V1).

Without any realistic path forward for coming to agreement on the Papacy there's no reason to prioritize talks with Rome over those with Protestant groups who may be further, in general terms, from Orthodoxy, but have understandings of authority/tradition/etc which would realistically allow them to move towards Orthodoxy in a way Rome simply can't.

You're entitled to your opinion of course. On the other hand, I can think of many Orthodox who think that reunion with Rome is much closer than reunion with Protestants.
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« Reply #60 on: April 09, 2012, 10:27:56 PM »

(ENInews). The spiritual leader of the world’s Orthodox Christians has written to Greece’s Orthodox state church, deploring anti-ecumenical statements by its leaders...
"In his statement on 4 March, Orthodoxy Sunday, Seraphim said he was anathematizing the “fallen arch-heretic,” Pope Benedict XVI, “and those in communion with him,” ..."
What are the consequences of this anathema for Roman Catholics? How would an anathema cast upon all Roman Catholics in the world by an Orthodox Metropolitan affect our eternal salvation?

How does an anethema affect a person or church when there is no communion to break?  Huh
He is a validly ordained bishop and he is hurling this anathema at all Roman Catholics in the world today; so that's what I don;t understand.  

I don't really understand it either. There is a difference between heterodoxy and heresy. Some heterodox are heretics, but not all of them. I don't know if he was anathematizing all Roman Catholics or just the current pope and, likely, any who agree with his alleged heresies. To my mind, however, he would have had to invented new heresies (not impossible), because the old ones were anathematized a long time ago (still in force), and all he and those who allegedly agree with the old heresies are potentially not actually fomenting heresy any longer, but just being faithful to what they have (unfortunately) come to believe.
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« Reply #61 on: April 09, 2012, 10:31:51 PM »

Clearly the Phanar believe that Latin Catholics are also in the Church i.e. that the Eastern Orthodox and Latin Catholic Churches are one and the same:

Quote
This quote, from the official publication of the Œcumenical Patriarchate, "Episkepsis," (No. 520, July 31, 1995, p. 19) is also worth mentioning here:

In a joint communiquée, signed on June 29, 1995, Pope John Paul II and Patriarch Bartholomew expressed their acceptance of the Balamand principles. Their communiquée includes the following statement: "The Joint Commission [which met at Balamand] was able to proclaim that our Churches are recognized mutually as Sister Churches, responsible together for the preservation of the One Church of God."/quote]

But the Phanar is composed of Greeks, who never say what they mean, like you might think. The Sublime Porte has had to be diplomatic for many centuries even before the Turks came. Never take a statement at face value.
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« Reply #62 on: April 11, 2012, 08:15:50 PM »

The Patriarch is not some universal bishop who can throw his orders around where he likes. He is first in honor, and that is as far as it goes. Greece shall do as Greece shall do, and his hands need to be out of it. Where are our St. Basil the Greats to stand up to over-reaching bishops?
His Holiness has stepped too far in too many places, from America to Estonia. He is no Latin pope.
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« Reply #63 on: April 11, 2012, 08:38:52 PM »

The Patriarch is not some universal bishop who can throw his orders around where he likes. He is first in honor, and that is as far as it goes. Greece shall do as Greece shall do, and his hands need to be out of it. Where are our St. Basil the Greats to stand up to over-reaching bishops?
His Holiness has stepped too far in too many places, from America to Estonia. He is no Latin pope.

His "diocese" and patriarchate, do however have a global scope, from australia to japan to america to south america, etc.  So the effects of one bishop upon HAH may be in a vein that none of us are even aware of.  They DO have such a global reach though & affect.  Just something to think about in this conversation. 
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« Reply #64 on: April 11, 2012, 09:57:28 PM »

The Patriarch is not some universal bishop who can throw his orders around where he likes. He is first in honor, and that is as far as it goes. Greece shall do as Greece shall do, and his hands need to be out of it. Where are our St. Basil the Greats to stand up to over-reaching bishops?
His Holiness has stepped too far in too many places, from America to Estonia. He is no Latin pope.

I guess he should just be quiet and not address what he sees as problems. Again, when he starts deposing people without a trial, then you can talk.
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« Reply #65 on: April 12, 2012, 07:17:46 PM »

The Patriarch is not some universal bishop who can throw his orders around where he likes. He is first in honor, and that is as far as it goes. Greece shall do as Greece shall do, and his hands need to be out of it. Where are our St. Basil the Greats to stand up to over-reaching bishops?
His Holiness has stepped too far in too many places, from America to Estonia. He is no Latin pope.

His "diocese" and patriarchate, do however have a global scope, from australia to japan to america to south america, etc.  So the effects of one bishop upon HAH may be in a vein that none of us are even aware of.  They DO have such a global reach though & affect.  Just something to think about in this conversation.  
But the Church of Greece is not under him, and thus it is not his place to order them to do things.

I am under His Holiness as a member of the Greek Archdiocese in America, and I love and respect him, I think he has good intentions, but I do not believe his actions are within what is acceptable for the bishop of Constantinople. The Patriarch of Serbia wouldn't order around the Bulgarian Church on what it should do. This situation is no different. Our bishops are equals.
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« Reply #66 on: April 12, 2012, 09:02:37 PM »

There are two types who are against ecumenism: those who are converts who wish to cut themselves off completely from their past of western though and, praxis and; those who are immature in their in their faith and, are not capable of engaging in theological debate because they do not know Orthodox theology themselves.

There are also those who judge things based on the fruit they produce.

But the fruit hasn't evolved yet so how can we judge?  Isn't ecumenism a process?  Huh
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« Reply #67 on: April 12, 2012, 09:36:59 PM »

There are two types who are against ecumenism: those who are converts who wish to cut themselves off completely from their past of western though and, praxis and; those who are immature in their in their faith and, are not capable of engaging in theological debate because they do not know Orthodox theology themselves.

There are also those who judge things based on the fruit they produce.

But the fruit hasn't evolved yet so how can we judge?  Isn't ecumenism a process?  Huh

The ecumenical movement's been going on for over a century now. Even on an Orthodox timeline that should be enough time to make at least some preliminary judgments about the fruit.
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« Reply #68 on: April 12, 2012, 09:50:21 PM »

I don't doubt many EOs feels that way.

Most EO are fairly ignorant of the OO. Of course, few EO would deem dialogue with Monophysites who deny the humanity of Christ more important than dialogue with Catholics who are dogmatically very similar. However, among the EO who are well-read on the subject, I think such an approach to ecumenism is quite popular.

I am not aware of any OO church that is monophysite.
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« Reply #69 on: April 15, 2012, 12:58:20 AM »

The Patriarch is not some universal bishop who can throw his orders around where he likes. He is first in honor, and that is as far as it goes. Greece shall do as Greece shall do, and his hands need to be out of it. Where are our St. Basil the Greats to stand up to over-reaching bishops?
His Holiness has stepped too far in too many places, from America to Estonia. He is no Latin pope.

His "diocese" and patriarchate, do however have a global scope, from australia to japan to america to south america, etc.  So the effects of one bishop upon HAH may be in a vein that none of us are even aware of.  They DO have such a global reach though & affect.  Just something to think about in this conversation.  
But the Church of Greece is not under him, and thus it is not his place to order them to do things.

I am under His Holiness as a member of the Greek Archdiocese in America, and I love and respect him, I think he has good intentions, but I do not believe his actions are within what is acceptable for the bishop of Constantinople. The Patriarch of Serbia wouldn't order around the Bulgarian Church on what it should do. This situation is no different. Our bishops are equals.

I totally agree with you in principle.  I'm just saying that when your whole job is to have a global scope, it's kind of hard to just sit back & watch things happen & not comment. 

Part of my perspective is from living at the Phanar for 1 week last May.  Believe me...they are VERY global.  we had reps from Korea, Australia, Crete, the US, South America, Europe, even a bishop who was the deligate to Russia came.  I'm just saying..their whole attitude there is about the world.  It's very "in character" for him to do what he did. 
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« Reply #70 on: April 15, 2012, 01:30:17 AM »

(ENInews). The spiritual leader of the world’s Orthodox Christians has written to Greece’s Orthodox state church, deploring anti-ecumenical statements by its leaders...

Wow.

Clearly the Phanar believe that Latin Catholics are also in the Church i.e. that the Eastern Orthodox and Latin Catholic Churches are one and the same:

Quote
This quote, from the official publication of the Œcumenical Patriarchate, "Episkepsis," (No. 520, July 31, 1995, p. 19) is also worth mentioning here:

In a joint communiquée, signed on June 29, 1995, Pope John Paul II and Patriarch Bartholomew expressed their acceptance of the Balamand principles. Their communiquée includes the following statement: "The Joint Commission [which met at Balamand] was able to proclaim that our Churches are recognized mutually as Sister Churches, responsible together for the preservation of the One Church of God."
I have heard that thousands of Greeks have converted recently to the GOC (Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece) since the GOC has been standing firm against ecumenism promoted by the EP especially his gestures toward Rome.  
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« Reply #71 on: April 15, 2012, 12:24:08 PM »

There are two types who are against ecumenism: those who are converts who wish to cut themselves off completely from their past of western though and, praxis and; those who are immature in their in their faith and, are not capable of engaging in theological debate because they do not know Orthodox theology themselves.

There are also those who judge things based on the fruit they produce.

But the fruit hasn't evolved yet so how can we judge?  Isn't ecumenism a process?  Huh

The ecumenical movement's been going on for over a century now. Even on an Orthodox timeline that should be enough time to make at least some preliminary judgments about the fruit.

But Catholics have only been involved in it for about half that long.
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« Reply #72 on: April 15, 2012, 01:39:15 PM »

(ENInews). The spiritual leader of the world’s Orthodox Christians has written to Greece’s Orthodox state church, deploring anti-ecumenical statements by its leaders...

Wow.

Clearly the Phanar believe that Latin Catholics are also in the Church i.e. that the Eastern Orthodox and Latin Catholic Churches are one and the same:

Quote
This quote, from the official publication of the Œcumenical Patriarchate, "Episkepsis," (No. 520, July 31, 1995, p. 19) is also worth mentioning here:

In a joint communiquée, signed on June 29, 1995, Pope John Paul II and Patriarch Bartholomew expressed their acceptance of the Balamand principles. Their communiquée includes the following statement: "The Joint Commission [which met at Balamand] was able to proclaim that our Churches are recognized mutually as Sister Churches, responsible together for the preservation of the One Church of God."
I have heard that thousands of Greeks have converted recently to the GOC (Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece) since the GOC has been standing firm against ecumenism promoted by the EP especially his gestures toward Rome.  
And where have you heard this?
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« Reply #73 on: April 16, 2012, 12:42:00 PM »

The Most Reverend Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus called extra anathema during the reading of the Synodikon on the Sunday of the Triumph of Orthodoxy. He added these to the list of anathema saying:

- The truly non-existent and fallen arch-heretic Pope and Patriarch of Old Rome Benedict XVI and those in communion with him, anathema, anathema, anathema.
- Martin Luther, John Calvin, Henry Zwingli, Henry the VIII the impious king, and those with them, and all the heretical offshoots of the Reformation, anathema, anathema, anathema.
- Those who deny and rebuke the Panagia, the consubstantial, indivisible and Life-giving Trinity, the Rabbi's of Judaism, the Islamists, the anonymous tracts of the Watchtower Society, the Jehovah's Witnesses, anathema, anathema, anathema.
- Those who deny the Holy 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th Ecumenical Councils, the Monophysites, Monothelites, and Monoenergists, anathema, anathema, anathema.
- Those who preach and teach the pan-heresy of Inter-Christian and Inter-Religious Syncretistic Ecumenism, anathema, anathema, anathema.

You can watch it here:

http://vimeo.com/38152418
at 16:06 he begins reading of anathema against heretics like arius and others
After the anathema of the heresy of Barlaam (17:36)
17:46 begins the anathema against the Latin pope and continues listing anathema as listed earlier above as he said

Yes, this is the same Seraphim who said many "anti-semetic" things during a interview.

Personally, watching the entire video I could not help but feel sick, I am not sure why, but something there just makes me feel wrong inside. When His Most Reverend talks, I cannot help but feel uneasy. And all through last night those chantings of "anathema anathema anathema" were running through my head, causing me much trouble.
At first I admired his stand against ecumenism, but I am not very sure anymore about this Metropolitan.
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« Reply #74 on: April 16, 2012, 01:59:18 PM »

What on earth is 'ecumenism' really? The devil is, after all, in the details as they say.

The way in which BOTH the MP and EP have defined it over the past century (although they continue to have their differences as to the scope of discussion and who takes the 'lead' in any such discussions) is FAR, FAR different than the simplistic way many of you who fall for the rhetoric of the likes of this particular Bishop and his followers (and for that matter many, but surely not all, within the self-proclaimed 'true' or 'genuine' Orthodox movement.)

I know it is Bright Week and I should not allow myself to be disturbed by this stuff, but I just can not abide the hardness of heart, soul and mind of many of those who are rabid 'anti-ecumenists' as it often appears to those who don't share those opinions that it seems even being kind to those who are not your brand of Orthodox is enough for the 'anathemas' to be trotted out and the fires to be stoked. We can't help but suspect that those fires are being stoked to us as well.
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« Reply #75 on: April 16, 2012, 02:34:20 PM »

What on earth is 'ecumenism' really? The devil is, after all, in the details as they say.

The way in which BOTH the MP and EP have defined it over the past century (although they continue to have their differences as to the scope of discussion and who takes the 'lead' in any such discussions) is FAR, FAR different than the simplistic way many of you who fall for the rhetoric of the likes of this particular Bishop and his followers (and for that matter many, but surely not all, within the self-proclaimed 'true' or 'genuine' Orthodox movement.)

I know it is Bright Week and I should not allow myself to be disturbed by this stuff, but I just can not abide the hardness of heart, soul and mind of many of those who are rabid 'anti-ecumenists' as it often appears to those who don't share those opinions that it seems even being kind to those who are not your brand of Orthodox is enough for the 'anathemas' to be trotted out and the fires to be stoked. We can't help but suspect that those fires are being stoked to us as well.


Christ is risen!

I think we should pray for those who feel the urge to rain anathemas on this and that. It is not that I do not have strong views myself, but ir seems to me that a basic principle of being a member of the Orthodox Church is to eschew being a latter-day Saint Mark of Ephesus. I cannot think for a moment what possesses our folks (clergy or laity) to go to such extremes.
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« Reply #76 on: April 16, 2012, 03:16:03 PM »

The Most Reverend Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus called extra anathema during the reading of the Synodikon on the Sunday of the Triumph of Orthodoxy. He added these to the list of anathema saying:

- The truly non-existent and fallen arch-heretic Pope and Patriarch of Old Rome Benedict XVI and those in communion with him, anathema, anathema, anathema.
- Martin Luther, John Calvin, Henry Zwingli, Henry the VIII the impious king, and those with them, and all the heretical offshoots of the Reformation, anathema, anathema, anathema.
- Those who deny and rebuke the Panagia, the consubstantial, indivisible and Life-giving Trinity, the Rabbi's of Judaism, the Islamists, the anonymous tracts of the Watchtower Society, the Jehovah's Witnesses, anathema, anathema, anathema.
- Those who deny the Holy 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th Ecumenical Councils, the Monophysites, Monothelites, and Monoenergists, anathema, anathema, anathema.
- Those who preach and teach the pan-heresy of Inter-Christian and Inter-Religious Syncretistic Ecumenism, anathema, anathema, anathema.

You can watch it here:

http://vimeo.com/38152418
at 16:06 he begins reading of anathema against heretics like arius and others
After the anathema of the heresy of Barlaam (17:36)
17:46 begins the anathema against the Latin pope and continues listing anathema as listed earlier above as he said

Yes, this is the same Seraphim who said many "anti-semetic" things during a interview.

Personally, watching the entire video I could not help but feel sick, I am not sure why, but something there just makes me feel wrong inside. When His Most Reverend talks, I cannot help but feel uneasy. And all through last night those chantings of "anathema anathema anathema" were running through my head, causing me much trouble.
At first I admired his stand against ecumenism, but I am not very sure anymore about this Metropolitan.
A bishop, acting alone, thinks he has the authority to add his own words to a Synodikon drafted only with conciliar approval? That demonstrates to me a very dangerous level of arrogance.
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« Reply #77 on: April 16, 2012, 03:20:05 PM »

Those liturgical revisionists...
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« Reply #78 on: April 16, 2012, 04:11:25 PM »

The Most Reverend Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus called extra anathema during the reading of the Synodikon on the Sunday of the Triumph of Orthodoxy. He added these to the list of anathema saying:

- The truly non-existent and fallen arch-heretic Pope and Patriarch of Old Rome Benedict XVI and those in communion with him, anathema, anathema, anathema.
So all Roman Catholics are officially anathematised three times by a standing Metropolitan of the Holy Orthodox Church? Is there some way that we can wash away this anathema from our souls?
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« Reply #79 on: April 16, 2012, 04:22:23 PM »

The Most Reverend Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus called extra anathema during the reading of the Synodikon on the Sunday of the Triumph of Orthodoxy. He added these to the list of anathema saying:

- The truly non-existent and fallen arch-heretic Pope and Patriarch of Old Rome Benedict XVI and those in communion with him, anathema, anathema, anathema.
So all Roman Catholics are officially anathematised three times by a standing Metropolitan of the Holy Orthodox Church? Is there some way that we can wash away this anathema from our souls?

Don't worry about it too much - after all you have had your share of good Catholic Bishops who pushed good Catholics out of the Church let alone worrying about non-Catholics - heck, St. Alexis of Wilkes-Barre comes to mind right off the top of my head!
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« Reply #80 on: April 16, 2012, 04:38:36 PM »

The Most Reverend Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus called extra anathema during the reading of the Synodikon on the Sunday of the Triumph of Orthodoxy. He added these to the list of anathema saying:

- The truly non-existent and fallen arch-heretic Pope and Patriarch of Old Rome Benedict XVI and those in communion with him, anathema, anathema, anathema.
So all Roman Catholics are officially anathematised three times by a standing Metropolitan of the Holy Orthodox Church? Is there some way that we can wash away this anathema from our souls?

Just come into the Church.
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« Reply #81 on: April 16, 2012, 07:20:31 PM »

The Most Reverend Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus called extra anathema during the reading of the Synodikon on the Sunday of the Triumph of Orthodoxy. He added these to the list of anathema saying:

- The truly non-existent and fallen arch-heretic Pope and Patriarch of Old Rome Benedict XVI and those in communion with him, anathema, anathema, anathema.
So all Roman Catholics are officially anathematised three times by a standing Metropolitan of the Holy Orthodox Church? Is there some way that we can wash away this anathema from our souls?

Just come into the Church.
Thank you kindly for that invitation. It is something that I have thought about. One thing that worries me is that Orthodox do not see a difference between venial and mortal sin; am I right about that? To me certain venial sins would not bar you from receiving Holy Communion, whereas a mortal sin would. Take for example, the sin of lying. Suppose that a telemarketeer calls you, interrupting your dinner and you answer the call. She says that she is selling a subscription to some ladies magazine and asks if your wife is there. Of course, your wife is right there, but you say no, she is not here and she won't be back anytime soon. You then hang up. You have lied about it, but it is a white lie, is it not? In the mind of a Roman, a venial (or lesser) sin would not disbar you from receiving Holy Communion.
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« Reply #82 on: April 16, 2012, 07:32:58 PM »

Other means of absolution from venial sins in the RCC: the use of holy water to make the sign of the Cross (that's why the stoups are by the church doors), and recitation of the general confession ("I confess to Almighty God...") early in the Mass. Just thought I'd mention that.
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« Reply #83 on: April 17, 2012, 09:05:50 AM »

The Most Reverend Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus called extra anathema during the reading of the Synodikon on the Sunday of the Triumph of Orthodoxy. He added these to the list of anathema saying:

- The truly non-existent and fallen arch-heretic Pope and Patriarch of Old Rome Benedict XVI and those in communion with him, anathema, anathema, anathema.
- Martin Luther, John Calvin, Henry Zwingli, Henry the VIII the impious king, and those with them, and all the heretical offshoots of the Reformation, anathema, anathema, anathema.

Huh ... I guess he likes John Wesley. Who would have thought?
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« Reply #84 on: April 17, 2012, 09:11:13 AM »

The Most Reverend Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus called extra anathema during the reading of the Synodikon on the Sunday of the Triumph of Orthodoxy. He added these to the list of anathema saying:

- The truly non-existent and fallen arch-heretic Pope and Patriarch of Old Rome Benedict XVI and those in communion with him, anathema, anathema, anathema.
So all Roman Catholics are officially anathematised three times by a standing Metropolitan of the Holy Orthodox Church? Is there some way that we can wash away this anathema from our souls?

Just come into the Church.
Thank you kindly for that invitation. It is something that I have thought about. One thing that worries me is that Orthodox do not see a difference between venial and mortal sin; am I right about that? To me certain venial sins would not bar you from receiving Holy Communion, whereas a mortal sin would. Take for example, the sin of lying. Suppose that a telemarketeer calls you, interrupting your dinner and you answer the call. She says that she is selling a subscription to some ladies magazine and asks if your wife is there. Of course, your wife is right there, but you say no, she is not here and she won't be back anytime soon. You then hang up. You have lied about it, but it is a white lie, is it not? In the mind of a Roman, a venial (or lesser) sin would not disbar you from receiving Holy Communion.

Not meaning to be a back-seat poster, but I think you should tell the good people that there's an ongoing discussion here about mortal and venial sins. Otherwise, the discussion might get scattered between two different threads.
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« Reply #85 on: April 17, 2012, 10:22:41 AM »

Any hatemongery is not useful at all. Patriarch Bartholomew is correct in pointing that out.

As for "ecumenism", I do not think it is wrong per se to have a theological discussion with the heterodox (although I agree we should focus on the OO instead). The whole thing becomes a problem ONLY if someone denies Orthodox dogma.
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« Reply #86 on: April 17, 2012, 11:26:16 AM »

The Most Reverend Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus called extra anathema during the reading of the Synodikon on the Sunday of the Triumph of Orthodoxy. He added these to the list of anathema saying:

- The truly non-existent and fallen arch-heretic Pope and Patriarch of Old Rome Benedict XVI and those in communion with him, anathema, anathema, anathema.
- Martin Luther, John Calvin, Henry Zwingli, Henry the VIII the impious king, and those with them, and all the heretical offshoots of the Reformation, anathema, anathema, anathema.

Huh ... I guess he likes John Wesley. Who would have thought?
For one thing, Wesley claimed to be ordained by a Greek bishop.
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« Reply #87 on: April 17, 2012, 11:31:54 AM »

The Most Reverend Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus called extra anathema during the reading of the Synodikon on the Sunday of the Triumph of Orthodoxy. He added these to the list of anathema saying:

- The truly non-existent and fallen arch-heretic Pope and Patriarch of Old Rome Benedict XVI and those in communion with him, anathema, anathema, anathema.
- Martin Luther, John Calvin, Henry Zwingli, Henry the VIII the impious king, and those with them, and all the heretical offshoots of the Reformation, anathema, anathema, anathema.

Huh ... I guess he likes John Wesley. Who would have thought?
For one thing, Wesley claimed to be ordained by a Greek bishop.

Really? I was kidding, of course, when I said that Metropolitan Seraphim likes John Wesley, but this ^^ is odd and interesting.
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« Reply #88 on: April 17, 2012, 11:35:00 AM »

Any hatemongery is not useful at all. Patriarch Bartholomew is correct in pointing that out.

As for "ecumenism", I do not think it is wrong per se to have a theological discussion with the heterodox (although I agree we should focus on the OO instead). The whole thing becomes a problem ONLY if someone denies Orthodox dogma.
Is it a problem if the heterodox say that their teachings, if interpreted either correctly or leniently, do not in any way conflict with Orthodox teachings?
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« Reply #89 on: April 17, 2012, 11:39:09 AM »

Is it a problem if the heterodox say that their teachings, if interpreted either correctly or leniently, do not in any way conflict with Orthodox teachings?

At some point (though it's awfully difficult to say what point exactly) that becomes propaganda.

One example is this comes from our own (Catholic) history: in the Union of Brest, the common folk naturally wondered why they were newly in communion with Rome; the answer often given to them was "The Pope has become Orthodox".
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 11:42:54 AM by Peter J » Logged

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