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Author Topic: Orthodox patriarch hits at “unacceptable” attacks on ecumenism  (Read 7483 times) Average Rating: 0
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #135 on: April 24, 2012, 12:13:00 PM »

I can't help to wonder sometimes....

Did a God that created this -

intend for us to be fighting over all this complex theological stuff?

For what it's worth, the position taken by many of us Catholics is: that some of our dogmas needn't/shouldn't have been dogmatized, but since they have, in fact, been dogmatized we must respect that.

 Huh Huh Huh Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Huh Huh Huh

I Respect the Resurrection of the Dead,
And the Life of the World to Come!!

 Grin
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ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
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« Reply #136 on: April 24, 2012, 12:42:16 PM »

I can't help to wonder sometimes....

Did a God that created this -

intend for us to be fighting over all this complex theological stuff?

For what it's worth, the position taken by many of us Catholics is: that some of our dogmas needn't/shouldn't have been dogmatized, but since they have, in fact, been dogmatized we must respect that.

 Huh Huh Huh Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Huh Huh Huh

I Respect the Resurrection of the Dead,
And the Life of the World to Come!!

 Grin
And the IC?
And the infallibility of the office of supreme pontiff?
And the supremacy of the supreme pontiff?
And the treasury of merits?
And purgatory?
And indulgences?
And.....
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 01:02:18 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
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« Reply #137 on: April 24, 2012, 12:45:08 PM »

I think the Pope established himself as  infallible  in order fight  Protestant concepts that were creeping into the Latin Church  in regard to the position, (or non position) of the Virgin Mary. When  an ignorant and uneducated Saint Bernadette said that the lady that spoke to her identified herself as the Immaculate Conception,   it was taken as a sign by  the Pope.  In order to impose the dogma on the Church he had to declare himself infallible.   

That logic makes sense, but the time table is off. The IC was dogmatically defined in 1854, which is before both the apparition (1858) and the dogmatic definition of Papal Infallibly (1870).
The Vatican quickly used the "apparitions" at Lourdes to promote the IC even more, and nearly every defense of Pastor Aeternus cites Ineffibilis Deus (1854) as an exercise of it.  It was, after all the same "supreme pontiff," who also invented the idea of the "magisterium."
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
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Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,372



« Reply #138 on: April 24, 2012, 12:46:27 PM »

Quote
And as for the Dormition,  according to Bishop Kallistos Ware it was only redefined by the Orthodox when the Catholics decided to make it dogma.    

Either +Kallistos is being misrepresented, or he is quite wrong. The hymnography for the Dormition feast dates from no later than the 8th century, and clearly proclaims the Mother of God dying, before the translation of her body and soul to heaven. Never has the Orthodox Church taught that she was bodily assumed into heaven without dying first.

Orthodox iconography of the Dormition is also completely consistent in portraying the death of the Mother of God.

The only reason the Catholics call it the Assumption is to distinguish it from the Ascension.  

The Theotokos was taken into heaven while Jesus Ascended under his own power.

That is the only reason for the term.  A third of the dogmatic constitution on the Assumption talks about the long tradition of the Church concerning the death of the Mother of God.  It AFFIRMS her death.

This whole discussion about that issue is silly after a while.
And yet your "magisterium" allows your Immortalists to prattle on.  The critical part of Munficentissimus Deus, the only part that at least your Latin coreligionists are agreed is "infallible" leaves it an open question.  Now if you want to argue that the whole papal bull is infallible, that's fine.  Just apply the same criteria to Unam Sanctam and a whole host of others.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 12:49:25 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Online Online

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,372



« Reply #139 on: April 24, 2012, 12:51:35 PM »

I can't help to wonder sometimes....

Did a God that created this -

intend for us to be fighting over all this complex theological stuff?

For what it's worth, the position taken by many of us Catholics is: that some of our dogmas needn't/shouldn't have been dogmatized, but since they have, in fact, been dogmatized we must respect that.
We Catholics are not so bound by the Vatican.  Nort do we intend to be, and if any should try to lead us into such servitude, he will find the doors of Orthodoxy, "the doors!  the doors!", shut behind him.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Online Online

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,372



« Reply #140 on: April 24, 2012, 12:52:53 PM »

... since we cannot accept the Branch Theory.

Orthodox don't hesitate to attack Anglicans for their "Branch Theory" (that Anglicans, Catholics, and Orthodox are all the Church) and Catholics for the "Two Lung Theory" (that Catholics and Orthodox are  the Church); but no one can ever seem to tell me how the Orthodox theory that EOs and OOs are the Church is really different -- except that it obviously includes fewer groups.  Roll Eyes

That is a valid criticism of those who think the EO and OO are already "the One Church".

Thank you. I was starting to feel like I was the only one who could see what's right in front of our collective nose.

The only difference is the acceptance of the Fourth Council as Ecumenical, and yet they anathematize Eutyches and his heresy like we, and the Fourth Council, do.

Branch Theory, by definition, only applies to Churches that aren't in heresy.

If I'm reading you correctly, your problem with Branch Theory is just a matter of which Churches it applies to, right?
No. For one thing, two OO Churches (Coptic, Syriac) overlap with two EO Churches (Alexandria, Antioch).  Can't be branches if you are planted in the same place.

Erm, I've never heard of branches planted in different places.
Branch theory has.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Online Online

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,372



« Reply #141 on: April 24, 2012, 12:57:37 PM »

I can't help to wonder sometimes....

Did a God that created this -

intend for us to be fighting over all this complex theological stuff?
someone here just posted this

how the Paschal bunny greets the Vatican's Crusader.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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