Author Topic: No liturgy  (Read 972 times)

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Offline Azul

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No liturgy
« on: April 06, 2012, 10:11:25 AM »
Why is there no liturgy on Great Friday?
Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.
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Offline Melodist

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Re: No liturgy
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2012, 11:20:24 AM »
The Holy Thursday liturgy is a "vesperal" liturgy, which means that it is technically a "friday" liturgy, regardless of what time of day it is celebrated even though it is intended to be served in the evening.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline katherine 2001

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Re: No liturgy
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2012, 03:49:33 PM »
An article on goarch.org has the answer.  Look in the 11th paragraph here:

http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith8437

The paragraph says:

Liturgically, the profound and awesome event of the death and burial of God in the flesh is marked by a particular kind of silence, i.e. by the absence of a eucharistic celebration. Great Friday and Great Saturday are the only two days of the year when no eucharistic assembly is held. However, before the twelfth century it was the custom to celebrate the Liturgy of the Pre-Sanctified Gifts on Great Friday.


Offline Monk Vasyl

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Re: No liturgy
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2012, 04:53:41 PM »
An article on goarch.org has the answer.  Look in the 11th paragraph here:

http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith8437

The paragraph says:

Liturgically, the profound and awesome event of the death and burial of God in the flesh is marked by a particular kind of silence, i.e. by the absence of a eucharistic celebration. Great Friday and Great Saturday are the only two days of the year when no eucharistic assembly is held. However, before the twelfth century it was the custom to celebrate the Liturgy of the Pre-Sanctified Gifts on Great Friday.



The Roman Catholic Church still celebrates its version of the Liturgy of the Pre-Sanctified Gifts on Good Friday.
The unworthy hierodeacon, Vasyl

Offline William

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Re: No liturgy
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2012, 05:23:31 PM »
An article on goarch.org has the answer.  Look in the 11th paragraph here:

http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith8437

The paragraph says:

Liturgically, the profound and awesome event of the death and burial of God in the flesh is marked by a particular kind of silence, i.e. by the absence of a eucharistic celebration. Great Friday and Great Saturday are the only two days of the year when no eucharistic assembly is held. However, before the twelfth century it was the custom to celebrate the Liturgy of the Pre-Sanctified Gifts on Great Friday.



But Great Saturday does have a eucharistic assembly. Happened to be the first Orthodox service I ever attended, in fact.  :)

(I'm referring to the morning liturgy with all the OT prophecies)
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline William

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Re: No liturgy
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2012, 05:29:19 PM »
One thing that I don't get is why is there no liturgy (which makes present the sacrifice of Calvary) on the day when the sacrifice of Calvary is commemorated?
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline Melodist

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Re: No liturgy
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2012, 06:14:00 PM »
But Great Saturday does have a eucharistic assembly. Happened to be the first Orthodox service I ever attended, in fact.  :)

(I'm referring to the morning liturgy with all the OT prophecies)

That's technically a "vesperal" liturgy too, making it technically a Paschal liturgy. It was actually used as the Paschal vigil at one point in time and it was during the OT readings that the catechumens were baptized.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline katherine 2001

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Re: No liturgy
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2012, 07:09:54 PM »
This article by Fr. Alexander Schmemann might help too:

http://midwestdiocese.org/news_090417_1.html

Read this paragraph from the above link:

Such is the double mystery of Holy Friday, and its services reveal it
and make us participate in it. On the one hand, there is the constant
emphasis on the Passion of Christ as the sin of all sins, the crime of
all crimes. Throughout Orthros during which the twelve Passion readings
make us follow step by step the sufferings of Christ, at the Hours
(which replace the Divine Liturgy: for the interdiction to celebrate
Eucharist on this day means that the sacrament of Christ's Presence
does not belong to "this world" of sin and darkness, but is the
sacrament of the "world to come") and finally, at Vespers, the service
of Christ's burial the hymns and readings are full of solemn
accusations of those, who willingly and freely decided to kill Christ,
justifying this murder by their religion, their political loyalty,
their practical considerations and their professional obedience.


Online Deacon Lance

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Re: No liturgy
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2012, 10:29:10 PM »
The Holy Thursday liturgy is a "vesperal" liturgy, which means that it is technically a "friday" liturgy, regardless of what time of day it is celebrated even though it is intended to be served in the evening.

No.  During Lent and Holy Week through Good Friday the Liturgical day runs midnight to midnight.  So Vespers and Vesperal Liturgies served during this period are of the day they are served rather than the following day as normal.  It reverts back to normal with Vesperal Liturgy of St Basil on Saturday which is the first service of Pascha.
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Offline Subdeacon Michael

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Re: No liturgy
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2012, 02:27:11 PM »
But Great Saturday does have a eucharistic assembly. Happened to be the first Orthodox service I ever attended, in fact.  :)

(I'm referring to the morning liturgy with all the OT prophecies)

There is no morning Liturgy of Great Saturday.

I suspect that you are referring to the old Paschal Vigil.  When the "new" Paschal Vigil was introduced in the 7th-8th century, the ancient vigil, which was common to east and west (in fact, many modern western Christians would recognise many elements of it from their Easter Vigil), was moved to the late afternoon/early evening, and combined with the service of Vespers, effectively giving us the situation where we have two Paschal Vigils.

This is still the pattern that prevails today.  The Vesperal Liturgy on Holy Saturday is actually the first Liturgy of the Resurrection, and the typikon stipulates that it is to be served at "about the tenth hour of the day", which is about 4 o' clock in the afternoon.

In most parishes, however, it is served somewhat earlier.  I suspect that this is out of economia, to give the priest sufficient rest before the very strenuous night services, or perhaps to give people a chance to prepare the church for the night services, food for the feast after the night vigil, and so forth.  My parish serves this Vesperal Liturgy at about 2 o' clock in the afternoon, but I know that many parishes do sometimes go as early as the morning.  This does not make it a morning Liturgy: it is just a pastoral concession in some places.

M
« Last Edit: May 24, 2012, 02:28:30 PM by Subdeacon Michael »
'There is nothing upon earth holier, higher, grander, more solemn, more life-giving than the Liturgy. The church, at this particular time, becomes an earthly heaven; those who officiate represent Christ Himself, the angels, the cherubim, seraphim and apostles.' - St John of Kronstadt

Offline Maria

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Re: No liturgy
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2012, 02:35:46 PM »
But Great Saturday does have a eucharistic assembly. Happened to be the first Orthodox service I ever attended, in fact.  :)

(I'm referring to the morning liturgy with all the OT prophecies)

There is no morning Liturgy of Great Saturday.

I suspect that you are referring to the old Paschal Vigil.  When the "new" Paschal Vigil was introduced in the 7th-8th century, the ancient vigil, which was common to east and west (in fact, many modern western Christians would recognise many elements of it from their Easter Vigil), was moved to the late afternoon/early evening, and combined with the service of Vespers, effectively giving us the situation where we have two Paschal Vigils.

This is still the pattern that prevails today.  The Vesperal Liturgy on Holy Saturday is actually the first Liturgy of the Resurrection, and the typikon stipulates that it is to be served at "about the tenth hour of the day", which is about 4 o' clock in the afternoon.

In most parishes, however, it is served somewhat earlier.  I suspect that this is out of economia, to give the priest sufficient rest before the very strenuous night services, or perhaps to give people a chance to prepare the church for the night services, food for the feast after the night vigil, and so forth.  My parish serves this Vesperal Liturgy at about 2 o' clock in the afternoon, but I know that many parishes do sometimes go as early as the morning.  This does not make it a morning Liturgy: it is just a pastoral concession in some places.

M

Thanks, I was wondering about this Vesperal Liturgy on Holy Saturday morning.
"Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered" sounds so Paschal.
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Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος
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Offline Maria

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Re: No liturgy
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2012, 02:37:36 PM »
An article on goarch.org has the answer.  Look in the 11th paragraph here:

http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith8437

The paragraph says:

Liturgically, the profound and awesome event of the death and burial of God in the flesh is marked by a particular kind of silence, i.e. by the absence of a eucharistic celebration. Great Friday and Great Saturday are the only two days of the year when no eucharistic assembly is held. However, before the twelfth century it was the custom to celebrate the Liturgy of the Pre-Sanctified Gifts on Great Friday.



The Roman Catholic Church still celebrates its version of the Liturgy of the Pre-Sanctified Gifts on Good Friday.

However, it has been so revised, especially after Vatican II, that it is hardly recognizable as the Pre-Sanctified Liturgy of old.
Ἅγιος ὁ Θεός
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Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος
ἐλέησον ἡμας

Offline biro

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Re: No liturgy
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2012, 04:02:07 PM »
But Great Saturday does have a eucharistic assembly. Happened to be the first Orthodox service I ever attended, in fact.  :)

(I'm referring to the morning liturgy with all the OT prophecies)

That's technically a "vesperal" liturgy too, making it technically a Paschal liturgy. It was actually used as the Paschal vigil at one point in time and it was during the OT readings that the catechumens were baptized.

When I was in the RCC, they baptized the new converts on Holy Saturday. In recent years, the Saturday Mass has been held on Saturday evening, instead of just before midnight; I think that was to allow people to go home and rest, because a lot of the parishes near me have a mostly elderly population. Anyway, even though we lit candles and sang "Christ the Lord is Risen Today" on Saturday night, there was a separate Mass on the Paschal Sunday morning. I do miss the Vigil Mass from when I was kid...  :'(

Offline Subdeacon Michael

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Re: No liturgy
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2012, 05:06:09 PM »
When I was in the RCC, they baptized the new converts on Holy Saturday. In recent years, the Saturday Mass has been held on Saturday evening, instead of just before midnight; I on the Paschal Sunday morning.

I'm fairly sure that the modern roman rubrics stipulate that the vigil begin after sundown and end before sunrise. There is nothing to stop their parishes celebrating the vigil at night or in the early hours of the morning, and there are parishes that do just that.

M
'There is nothing upon earth holier, higher, grander, more solemn, more life-giving than the Liturgy. The church, at this particular time, becomes an earthly heaven; those who officiate represent Christ Himself, the angels, the cherubim, seraphim and apostles.' - St John of Kronstadt