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Author Topic: At Holy Thursday Mass, pope criticizes dissent from church teachings  (Read 2160 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: April 05, 2012, 04:16:56 PM »

Quote
Without specifying the country, Pope Benedict said a group of priests from a European nation have issued a call for disobedience of church teaching, specifically regarding the question of women's ordination.

Last year the president of the Austrian bishops' conference, Vienna Cardinal Christoph Schonborn, condemned a "Call to Disobedience," signed by 250 of Austria's 4,200 Catholic priests. The document urged Catholics to begin a campaign in support of women priests and "priestless eucharistic liturgies," as well as for Communion to be given to non-Catholics and remarried divorcees.

Also, 311 theologians from Austria, Germany and Switzerland signed a memorandum last year demanding the ordination of women and married men, as well as an "open dialogue" on the church's "structures of power and communication."

Pope Benedict asked, "Is disobedience a path of renewal for the church?" adding that Blessed John Paul II taught "irrevocably that the church has received no authority from the Lord" to ordain women.

Pope Benedict said perhaps such campaigns are motivated by concern for the church and believe that "the slow pace of institutions has to be overcome by drastic measures, in order to open up new paths and bring the church up-to-date."

"But is disobedience really a way to do this?" the pope asked.

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« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2012, 04:23:57 PM »

this should have an interesting conclusion...
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« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2012, 04:38:55 PM »

Don't shoot the messenger, but... Orthodoxy is next  police
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« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2012, 04:46:31 PM »

Don't shoot the messenger, but... Orthodoxy is next  police
The Pope is going to criticize Orthodoxy for dissenting?
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« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2012, 04:49:28 PM »

Don't shoot the messenger, but... Orthodoxy is next  police
The Pope is going to criticize Orthodoxy for dissenting?

Somehow I don't think he meant that.
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« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2012, 04:58:34 PM »

 Cheesy  Haven't the Popes been doing that for over a thousand years?  Grin  

To unpack what I meant though, certainly many Protestant groups have gone through this type of thing. And if Catholics are now having small pockets of it, the Orthodox shouldn't assume that they're immune to it. There are already Orthodox theologians--admittedly few in number at this point--who speak openly about whether the EOC should ordain women. Times they are a changin'.
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« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2012, 05:12:11 PM »

Cheesy  Haven't the Popes been doing that for over a thousand years?  Grin 

To unpack what I meant though, certainly many Protestant groups have gone through this type of thing. And if Catholics are now having small pockets of it, the Orthodox shouldn't assume that they're immune to it. There are already Orthodox theologians--admittedly few in number at this point--who speak openly about whether the EOC should ordain women. Times they are a changin'.

Of course Orthodoxy isn't immune to protestantism--just look at all the various and sundried "Orthodox" Churches *not* in communion with any other Orthodox Church--you know, the "vagantes".

As for ordained women, hopefully I'll be long dead before that happens in either of our Churches!  God forbid it happen at all!!
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« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2012, 05:14:51 PM »

I was speaking more about people within the Orthodox Church questioning things. When Met. Kallistos started to say a decade ago that the Orthodox need to talk about this whole women priests stuff, it was not well received by many... but who could argue that Met. Kallistos is some kind of fringe crackpot or crazy vagante? (actually I know who can, and does, argue that... but anyway... Cool )
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« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2012, 05:21:25 PM »

I was speaking more about people within the Orthodox Church questioning things. When Met. Kallistos started to say a decade ago that the Orthodox need to talk about this whole women priests stuff, it was not well received by many... but who could argue that Met. Kallistos is some kind of fringe crackpot or crazy vagante? (actually I know who can, and does, argue that... but anyway... Cool )

Priests and bishops aren't people in the Orthodox Church  Shocked Shocked?

(Just kidding  Grin!)
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« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2012, 10:13:31 PM »

Cheesy  Haven't the Popes been doing that for over a thousand years?  Grin  

Not over a thousand. Over five hundred I would say -- the Orthodox couldn't really be considered "dissenters" before the Council of Florence.
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« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2012, 10:21:59 PM »

Cheesy  Haven't the Popes been doing that for over a thousand years?  Grin 

Not over a thousand. Over five hundred I would say -- the Orthodox couldn't really be considered "dissenters" before the Council of Florence.

St. Photius is shedding a tear that he doesn't count  Tongue
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« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2012, 01:54:32 AM »

With all due respect to the RCC. I don't think that ignoring these pressing issues will make them go away. I am not saying that they should cave in on them. Just that many of its members feel that there has not been genuine dialogue. I am concerned also that currently that the RCC does not have an effective pastoral plan in place for those of its members that have gone through a divorce. Many feel they need to leave the Church because they feel unwelcomed. Many feel the annulment process is unnecessary, burdensome, and overly legalistic. They feel they are being victimized (just reporting what I have read from people that have gone through it).

I don't see any of these issues going away but without dialogue the calls for these things will only grow, IMO.
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« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2012, 08:19:25 AM »

Of course Orthodoxy isn't immune to protestantism--

I can't see why any religion would think itself immune to any other religion. I'm sure, somewhere in the world, there's a Methodist who has converted to Islam, a Buddhist who's converted to Catholicism, etc.
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« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2012, 10:38:21 AM »

Of course Orthodoxy isn't immune to protestantism--

I can't see why any religion would think itself immune to any other religion. I'm sure, somewhere in the world, there's a Methodist who has converted to Islam, a Buddhist who's converted to Catholicism, etc.

 Neither can I. 

Wishing you (and all my fellow Catholics here and all other non-Orthodox Christians here) a blessed Good Friday!

And to my Jewish brothers and sisters, חג פסח שמח!
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« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2012, 09:23:52 PM »

Of course Orthodoxy isn't immune to protestantism--

I can't see why any religion would think itself immune to any other religion. I'm sure, somewhere in the world, there's a Methodist who has converted to Islam, a Buddhist who's converted to Catholicism, etc.

 Neither can I. 

Wishing you (and all my fellow Catholics here and all other non-Orthodox Christians here) a blessed Good Friday!

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Amen and Amen.   Smiley
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« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2012, 12:30:38 AM »

I was speaking more about people within the Orthodox Church questioning things. When Met. Kallistos started to say a decade ago that the Orthodox need to talk about this whole women priests stuff, it was not well received by many... but who could argue that Met. Kallistos is some kind of fringe crackpot or crazy vagante? (actually I know who can, and does, argue that... but anyway... Cool )

The Orthodox thankfully have the simplest and best answer. We never did it; we have no need to do it; it causes scandal in the Church of God: therefore, there is no good reason to do it.
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« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2012, 11:15:28 AM »

I was speaking more about people within the Orthodox Church questioning things. When Met. Kallistos started to say a decade ago that the Orthodox need to talk about this whole women priests stuff, it was not well received by many... but who could argue that Met. Kallistos is some kind of fringe crackpot or crazy vagante? (actually I know who can, and does, argue that... but anyway... Cool )

The Orthodox thankfully have the simplest and best answer. We never did it; we have no need to do it; it causes scandal in the Church of God: therefore, there is no good reason to do it.
I'm pretty sure these are the same reasons our Church gives too.
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« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2012, 11:36:43 AM »

I was speaking more about people within the Orthodox Church questioning things. When Met. Kallistos started to say a decade ago that the Orthodox need to talk about this whole women priests stuff, it was not well received by many... but who could argue that Met. Kallistos is some kind of fringe crackpot or crazy vagante? (actually I know who can, and does, argue that... but anyway... Cool )

The Orthodox thankfully have the simplest and best answer. We never did it; we have no need to do it; it causes scandal in the Church of God: therefore, there is no good reason to do it.
I'm pretty sure these are the same reasons our Church gives too.
Impossible! I guess we'll have to change our answer now. Tongue
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« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2012, 10:53:34 PM »

I was speaking more about people within the Orthodox Church questioning things. When Met. Kallistos started to say a decade ago that the Orthodox need to talk about this whole women priests stuff, it was not well received by many... but who could argue that Met. Kallistos is some kind of fringe crackpot or crazy vagante? (actually I know who can, and does, argue that... but anyway... Cool )

The Orthodox thankfully have the simplest and best answer. We never did it; we have no need to do it; it causes scandal in the Church of God: therefore, there is no good reason to do it.
I'm pretty sure these are the same reasons our Church gives too.
Impossible! I guess we'll have to change our answer now. Tongue
Sounds about right. Make sure whatever reason you guys come up with emphasizes how not Latin you are. Tongue
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« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2012, 11:02:15 PM »

The voice of liberal Catholics is getting louder and louder each year - what will Rome ultimately end up doing?
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« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2012, 11:04:53 PM »

I was speaking more about people within the Orthodox Church questioning things. When Met. Kallistos started to say a decade ago that the Orthodox need to talk about this whole women priests stuff, it was not well received by many... but who could argue that Met. Kallistos is some kind of fringe crackpot or crazy vagante? (actually I know who can, and does, argue that... but anyway... Cool )
I can think of at least one prominent Orthodox thinker who supports women's ordination whole-heartedly.
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« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2012, 02:08:27 AM »

I was speaking more about people within the Orthodox Church questioning things. When Met. Kallistos started to say a decade ago that the Orthodox need to talk about this whole women priests stuff, it was not well received by many... but who could argue that Met. Kallistos is some kind of fringe crackpot or crazy vagante? (actually I know who can, and does, argue that... but anyway... Cool )

The Orthodox thankfully have the simplest and best answer. We never did it; we have no need to do it; it causes scandal in the Church of God: therefore, there is no good reason to do it.
I'm pretty sure these are the same reasons our Church gives too.
Impossible! I guess we'll have to change our answer now. Tongue
Sounds about right. Make sure whatever reason you guys come up with emphasizes how not Latin you are. Tongue

Everyone here knows the Roman Church's answers to this question are significantly more involved than just "we don't do that and there's no need to start doing that".

Not directing this specifically at you, Wyatt, but I am getting a bit tired of the whole "Orthodox Christians are just Roman Catholics who refuse to realise that fact" thing.
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« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2012, 02:19:54 AM »

I was speaking more about people within the Orthodox Church questioning things. When Met. Kallistos started to say a decade ago that the Orthodox need to talk about this whole women priests stuff, it was not well received by many... but who could argue that Met. Kallistos is some kind of fringe crackpot or crazy vagante? (actually I know who can, and does, argue that... but anyway... Cool )

The Orthodox thankfully have the simplest and best answer. We never did it; we have no need to do it; it causes scandal in the Church of God: therefore, there is no good reason to do it.
I'm pretty sure these are the same reasons our Church gives too.
Impossible! I guess we'll have to change our answer now. Tongue
Sounds about right. Make sure whatever reason you guys come up with emphasizes how not Latin you are. Tongue

Everyone here knows the Roman Church's answers to this question are significantly more involved than just "we don't do that and there's no need to start doing that".

Not directing this specifically at you, Wyatt, but I am getting a bit tired of the whole "Orthodox Christians are just Roman Catholics who refuse to realise that fact" thing.
Can you elaborate? I'm not sure what you are getting at.
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« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2012, 02:29:19 AM »

I was speaking more about people within the Orthodox Church questioning things. When Met. Kallistos started to say a decade ago that the Orthodox need to talk about this whole women priests stuff, it was not well received by many... but who could argue that Met. Kallistos is some kind of fringe crackpot or crazy vagante? (actually I know who can, and does, argue that... but anyway... Cool )

The Orthodox thankfully have the simplest and best answer. We never did it; we have no need to do it; it causes scandal in the Church of God: therefore, there is no good reason to do it.
I'm pretty sure these are the same reasons our Church gives too.
Impossible! I guess we'll have to change our answer now. Tongue
Sounds about right. Make sure whatever reason you guys come up with emphasizes how not Latin you are. Tongue

Everyone here knows the Roman Church's answers to this question are significantly more involved than just "we don't do that and there's no need to start doing that".

Not directing this specifically at you, Wyatt, but I am getting a bit tired of the whole "Orthodox Christians are just Roman Catholics who refuse to realise that fact" thing.
Can you elaborate? I'm not sure what you are getting at.

There seems to be a bit of a trend towards saying that the Orthodox Church has all the same doctrines as the Roman Church, except that Orthodox Christians are too stubborn in their hatred of Rome to admit it and so go to great lengths to differentiate their doctrines from the Roman ones, even though they are, at their core, all the same.

I know your initial comment was tongue in cheek, so please don't think the above is aimed directly at you.
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« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2012, 06:21:50 AM »

I was speaking more about people within the Orthodox Church questioning things. When Met. Kallistos started to say a decade ago that the Orthodox need to talk about this whole women priests stuff, it was not well received by many... but who could argue that Met. Kallistos is some kind of fringe crackpot or crazy vagante? (actually I know who can, and does, argue that... but anyway... Cool )
I can think of at least one prominent Orthodox thinker who supports women's ordination whole-heartedly.

And? Such people are engaging in an exercise in futility. And they certainly do not speak for the Orthodox Church as a whole, any more than the dissident RC clergy referred to in this thread do for the RCC.
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« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2012, 08:26:35 AM »

There seems to be a bit of a trend towards saying that the Orthodox Church has all the same doctrines as the Roman Church, except that Orthodox Christians are too stubborn in their hatred of Rome to admit it and so go to great lengths to differentiate their doctrines from the Roman ones, even though they are, at their core, all the same.

I agree there is such a trend. But I don't think the problem is the mere holding of such opinions, but rather the fact that in most conversations those people tend to be the "heavyweights". (I don't know whether you participate on the same forums that I do. Possibly your experience has been different.)
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« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2012, 10:53:38 AM »

I was speaking more about people within the Orthodox Church questioning things. When Met. Kallistos started to say a decade ago that the Orthodox need to talk about this whole women priests stuff, it was not well received by many... but who could argue that Met. Kallistos is some kind of fringe crackpot or crazy vagante? (actually I know who can, and does, argue that... but anyway... Cool )

The Orthodox thankfully have the simplest and best answer. We never did it; we have no need to do it; it causes scandal in the Church of God: therefore, there is no good reason to do it.
I'm pretty sure these are the same reasons our Church gives too.
Impossible! I guess we'll have to change our answer now. Tongue
Sounds about right. Make sure whatever reason you guys come up with emphasizes how not Latin you are. Tongue

Everyone here knows the Roman Church's answers to this question are significantly more involved than just "we don't do that and there's no need to start doing that".

Not directing this specifically at you, Wyatt, but I am getting a bit tired of the whole "Orthodox Christians are just Roman Catholics who refuse to realise that fact" thing.
Can you elaborate? I'm not sure what you are getting at.

There seems to be a bit of a trend towards saying that the Orthodox Church has all the same doctrines as the Roman Church, except that Orthodox Christians are too stubborn in their hatred of Rome to admit it and so go to great lengths to differentiate their doctrines from the Roman ones, even though they are, at their core, all the same.

I know your initial comment was tongue in cheek, so please don't think the above is aimed directly at you.
Ah ok, I got ya now. Are you saying, though, that our Churches have differing reasons for not allowing female ordination? I thought that that was actually something that was essentially the same between us.
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« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2012, 12:22:21 PM »

And? Such people are engaging in an exercise in futility. And they certainly do not speak for the Orthodox Church as a whole, any more than the dissident RC clergy referred to in this thread do for the RCC.
[/quote]

I cant imagine the RCC or the OCC every entertaining this change.   I dont see changes of this sort in the future.  If it should occur there will be schism after schism if either churches choose to ignore Tradition.  
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« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2012, 05:09:54 PM »

I was speaking more about people within the Orthodox Church questioning things. When Met. Kallistos started to say a decade ago that the Orthodox need to talk about this whole women priests stuff, it was not well received by many... but who could argue that Met. Kallistos is some kind of fringe crackpot or crazy vagante? (actually I know who can, and does, argue that... but anyway... Cool )

The Orthodox thankfully have the simplest and best answer. We never did it; we have no need to do it; it causes scandal in the Church of God: therefore, there is no good reason to do it.
I'm pretty sure these are the same reasons our Church gives too.
Impossible! I guess we'll have to change our answer now. Tongue
Sounds about right. Make sure whatever reason you guys come up with emphasizes how not Latin you are. Tongue

Everyone here knows the Roman Church's answers to this question are significantly more involved than just "we don't do that and there's no need to start doing that".

Not directing this specifically at you, Wyatt, but I am getting a bit tired of the whole "Orthodox Christians are just Roman Catholics who refuse to realise that fact" thing.
Can you elaborate? I'm not sure what you are getting at.

There seems to be a bit of a trend towards saying that the Orthodox Church has all the same doctrines as the Roman Church, except that Orthodox Christians are too stubborn in their hatred of Rome to admit it and so go to great lengths to differentiate their doctrines from the Roman ones, even though they are, at their core, all the same.

I know your initial comment was tongue in cheek, so please don't think the above is aimed directly at you.
Ah ok, I got ya now. Are you saying, though, that our Churches have differing reasons for not allowing female ordination? I thought that that was actually something that was essentially the same between us.

As I understand the matter, while our churches agree that the practice of ordaining women is not part of what has been received and that therefore there is no good reason to adopt the practice (alternatively, that we have no authority to do so), it seems to me that the Roman Church has further reasons for not ordaining women -- eg: that the priest acts in persona Christi and must therefore be male, &c. I could be over-stating my case, though.
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« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2012, 06:47:35 PM »

I was speaking more about people within the Orthodox Church questioning things. When Met. Kallistos started to say a decade ago that the Orthodox need to talk about this whole women priests stuff, it was not well received by many... but who could argue that Met. Kallistos is some kind of fringe crackpot or crazy vagante? (actually I know who can, and does, argue that... but anyway... Cool )

The Orthodox thankfully have the simplest and best answer. We never did it; we have no need to do it; it causes scandal in the Church of God: therefore, there is no good reason to do it.
I'm pretty sure these are the same reasons our Church gives too.
Impossible! I guess we'll have to change our answer now. Tongue
Sounds about right. Make sure whatever reason you guys come up with emphasizes how not Latin you are. Tongue

Everyone here knows the Roman Church's answers to this question are significantly more involved than just "we don't do that and there's no need to start doing that".

Not directing this specifically at you, Wyatt, but I am getting a bit tired of the whole "Orthodox Christians are just Roman Catholics who refuse to realise that fact" thing.
Can you elaborate? I'm not sure what you are getting at.

There seems to be a bit of a trend towards saying that the Orthodox Church has all the same doctrines as the Roman Church, except that Orthodox Christians are too stubborn in their hatred of Rome to admit it and so go to great lengths to differentiate their doctrines from the Roman ones, even though they are, at their core, all the same.

I know your initial comment was tongue in cheek, so please don't think the above is aimed directly at you.
Ah ok, I got ya now. Are you saying, though, that our Churches have differing reasons for not allowing female ordination? I thought that that was actually something that was essentially the same between us.

As I understand the matter, while our churches agree that the practice of ordaining women is not part of what has been received and that therefore there is no good reason to adopt the practice (alternatively, that we have no authority to do so), it seems to me that the Roman Church has further reasons for not ordaining women -- eg: that the priest acts in persona Christi and must therefore be male, &c. I could be over-stating my case, though.
The Eastern Orthodox don't believe that the Priest acts in persona Christi? I think that that is certainly one reason why we do not allow female clergy, but the way I have always heard it explained is that the Church doesn't have the authority to change something that Christ established. Christ appointed twelve male Apostles, and the successors to those Apostles, the Bishops, have always been male. Our Church teaches that it doesn't have the ability to modify the priesthood to include women whenever Christ founded His Church upon male leaders.
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« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2012, 10:08:23 PM »

The Eastern Orthodox don't believe that the Priest acts in persona Christi?
I actually actually understood them to be acting in that fashion; it was how I initially heard the EO priest explained to me when I was an inquirer.
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« Reply #31 on: April 10, 2012, 10:16:34 PM »

I was speaking more about people within the Orthodox Church questioning things. When Met. Kallistos started to say a decade ago that the Orthodox need to talk about this whole women priests stuff, it was not well received by many... but who could argue that Met. Kallistos is some kind of fringe crackpot or crazy vagante? (actually I know who can, and does, argue that... but anyway... Cool )

Metropolitan Anthony of Sourozh was at times quite pointed on the matter as well.
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« Reply #32 on: April 10, 2012, 10:55:53 PM »

The voice of liberal Catholics is getting louder and louder each year - what will Rome ultimately end up doing?

Give them the pink slip and replace them with fresh new traditional faces.
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« Reply #33 on: April 10, 2012, 11:11:53 PM »

I can't see why any religion would think itself immune to any other religion. I'm sure, somewhere in the world, there's a Methodist who has converted to Islam, a Buddhist who's converted to Catholicism, etc.
An Orthodox Christian who's converted to Judaism..
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« Reply #34 on: April 11, 2012, 12:45:34 AM »

The Eastern Orthodox don't believe that the Priest acts in persona Christi?
I actually actually understood them to be acting in that fashion; it was how I initially heard the EO priest explained to me when I was an inquirer.

I do not believe this is the universal teaching, but am very much open to correction.

The Roman view that an (explicit) epiklesis is not necessary has always made sense to me in light of their well-developed notion of the priest acting in persona Christi: after all, the Lord did not invoke the Spirit of God at the Mystical Supper but rather blessed the bread and cup and pronounced the words of institution.

The Orthodox insistence upon the presence of an explicit epiklesis seems to suggest the priest is performing a function at the Holy Table different to that understood by the Roman Church to be the case.
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« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2012, 12:50:05 AM »

I do not believe this is the universal teaching, but am very much open to correction.

The Roman view that an (explicit) epiklesis is not necessary has always made sense to me in light of their well-developed notion of the priest acting in persona Christi: after all, the Lord did not invoke the Spirit of God at the Mystical Supper but rather blessed the bread and cup and pronounced the words of institution.

The Orthodox insistence upon the presence of an explicit epiklesis seems to suggest the priest is performing a function at the Holy Table different to that understood by the Roman Church to be the case.

The person that explain it to me could very well be wrong. I honestly can't even remember who it was at this point. And I'll admit that I know next to nothing about the topic.
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« Reply #36 on: April 11, 2012, 05:24:45 AM »

The Eastern Orthodox don't believe that the Priest acts in persona Christi?
I actually actually understood them to be acting in that fashion; it was how I initially heard the EO priest explained to me when I was an inquirer.

I do not believe this is the universal teaching, but am very much open to correction.

The Roman view that an (explicit) epiklesis is not necessary has always made sense to me in light of their well-developed notion of the priest acting in persona Christi: after all, the Lord did not invoke the Spirit of God at the Mystical Supper but rather blessed the bread and cup and pronounced the words of institution.

The Orthodox insistence upon the presence of an explicit epiklesis seems to suggest the priest is performing a function at the Holy Table different to that understood by the Roman Church to be the case.

If I'm not mistaken, Met. Kallistos agrees with you; he says that the priestacts in persona ecclesia.
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« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2012, 09:53:58 AM »

I can't see why any religion would think itself immune to any other religion. I'm sure, somewhere in the world, there's a Methodist who has converted to Islam, a Buddhist who's converted to Catholicism, etc.
An Orthodox Christian who's converted to Judaism..

Now *that's* an interesting switch!  Are you referring to a real situation or are you speaking hypothetically?  If a real situation, I'd be really interested to hear more!  Feel free to p.m. me if you don't want to discuss it publicly.
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« Reply #38 on: April 11, 2012, 11:00:37 AM »

I can't see why any religion would think itself immune to any other religion. I'm sure, somewhere in the world, there's a Methodist who has converted to Islam, a Buddhist who's converted to Catholicism, etc.
An Orthodox Christian who's converted to Judaism..

Now *that's* an interesting switch!  Are you referring to a real situation or are you speaking hypothetically?  If a real situation, I'd be really interested to hear more!  Feel free to p.m. me if you don't want to discuss it publicly.

Tallitot is writing self-referentially.
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« Reply #39 on: April 11, 2012, 11:20:59 AM »

I can't see why any religion would think itself immune to any other religion. I'm sure, somewhere in the world, there's a Methodist who has converted to Islam, a Buddhist who's converted to Catholicism, etc.
An Orthodox Christian who's converted to Judaism..

Now *that's* an interesting switch!  Are you referring to a real situation or are you speaking hypothetically?  If a real situation, I'd be really interested to hear more!  Feel free to p.m. me if you don't want to discuss it publicly.

Tallitot is writing self-referentially.

I thought that might be the case, but wanted to leave it open to him to say so, rather than me "stepping in it", as I'm often wont to do  Grin.

I'd love to hear/read his story!
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« Reply #40 on: December 04, 2012, 06:36:13 PM »

Major Catholic newspaper writes editorial in support of women's ordination:

"The call to the priesthood is a gift from God. It is rooted in baptism and is called forth and affirmed by the community because it is authentic and evident in the person as a charism. Catholic women who have discerned a call to the priesthood and have had that call affirmed by the community should be ordained in the Roman Catholic church. Barring women from ordination to the priesthood is an injustice that cannot be allowed to stand...."
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« Reply #41 on: December 04, 2012, 06:45:51 PM »

Major Catholic newspaper writes editorial in support of women's ordination:

"The call to the priesthood is a gift from God. It is rooted in baptism and is called forth and affirmed by the community because it is authentic and evident in the person as a charism. Catholic women who have discerned a call to the priesthood and have had that call affirmed by the community should be ordained in the Roman Catholic church. Barring women from ordination to the priesthood is an injustice that cannot be allowed to stand...."

Sad that today we value equality so much but have a completely wrong notion for it.  We think that the only way to achieve equality is homogeneity in roles and abilities.  Society thinks that denial of access to something or to a role is discrimination.  We have lost the sense that dignity is not dependent on the roles a person plays in life.
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« Reply #42 on: December 04, 2012, 07:39:38 PM »

Don't shoot the messenger, but... Orthodoxy is next  police
The Pope is going to criticize Orthodoxy for dissenting?
That's been going on for a long time already.
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« Reply #43 on: December 05, 2012, 12:41:16 AM »

Major Catholic newspaper writes editorial in support of women's ordination:

"The call to the priesthood is a gift from God. It is rooted in baptism and is called forth and affirmed by the community because it is authentic and evident in the person as a charism. Catholic women who have discerned a call to the priesthood and have had that call affirmed by the community should be ordained in the Roman Catholic church. Barring women from ordination to the priesthood is an injustice that cannot be allowed to stand...."
That "Catholic" newspaper is notorious for its liberalism...Just sayin'.

Anyway, the RCC has already said it has no authority to ordain women as priests, in so many words, in what would certainly appear to be an ex cathedra statement from Pope John Paul II, in the Apostolic Letter "Ordinatio Sacerdoralis" http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_22051994_ordinatio-sacerdotalis_en.html

Quote
Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful.

Now what's really interesting is it doesn't just say "ordination" but "priestly ordination"...hmmm.
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« Reply #44 on: December 05, 2012, 11:07:32 AM »

Major Catholic newspaper writes editorial in support of women's ordination:

"The call to the priesthood is a gift from God. It is rooted in baptism and is called forth and affirmed by the community because it is authentic and evident in the person as a charism. Catholic women who have discerned a call to the priesthood and have had that call affirmed by the community should be ordained in the Roman Catholic church. Barring women from ordination to the priesthood is an injustice that cannot be allowed to stand...."
That "Catholic" newspaper is notorious for its liberalism...Just sayin'.

Anyway, the RCC has already said it has no authority to ordain women as priests, in so many words, in what would certainly appear to be an ex cathedra statement from Pope John Paul II, in the Apostolic Letter "Ordinatio Sacerdoralis" http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_22051994_ordinatio-sacerdotalis_en.html

Quote
Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful.

Now what's really interesting is it doesn't just say "ordination" but "priestly ordination"...hmmm.

Given that the ancient Church used to ordain deaconesses to assist with the baptism of female converts, etc. I suppose that it isn't out of the question that it could resume the practice.  Not quite sure how I feel about that--but then, my opinion about these things is not usually solicited by the powers that be in the Church  Wink.
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