Author Topic: Catholics in the Holy Land to celebrate Orthodox Easter  (Read 2214 times)

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Offline mike

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Catholics in the Holy Land to celebrate Orthodox Easter
« on: April 04, 2012, 10:15:15 AM »
For pastoral reasons the Catholic Church in the Holy Land plans in future to celebrate Easter according to the Orthodox calendar. The reason is consideration of the many inter-church families, said the Franciscan Custos Pierbattista Pizzaballa. In ecumenical dialogue, the date of Easter is one of the major hurdles...

I wonder how much of it is true.
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Offline Alpo

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Re: Catholics in the Holy Land to celebrate Orthodox Easter
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2012, 12:11:34 PM »
Nice. Maybe some day also The Orthodox in Finland will celebrate Orthodox Easter.
The user should probably be sleeping by now.

Offline biro

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Re: Catholics in the Holy Land to celebrate Orthodox Easter
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2012, 01:15:11 PM »
Well, since I've been going to an Orthodox church, the food has been good, so I hope they have fun!   :laugh:

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Catholics in the Holy Land to celebrate Orthodox Easter
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2012, 02:37:37 PM »
The full moon after the Vernal Equinox this year is April 6 or April 7 (depending on where you are in the world). Thus, the first Sunday after the first full moon is April 8. Would anyone care to explain why we are not having Pascha on the 8th? I think that the Roman Catholics of the Holy land are mighty generous to overlook this discrepancy.

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Catholics in the Holy Land to celebrate Orthodox Easter
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2012, 02:50:15 PM »
The full moon after the Vernal Equinox this year is April 6 or April 7 (depending on where you are in the world). Thus, the first Sunday after the first full moon is April 8. Would anyone care to explain why we are not having Pascha on the 8th? I think that the Roman Catholics of the Holy land are mighty generous to overlook this discrepancy.

good question...  ???

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Catholics in the Holy Land to celebrate Orthodox Easter
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2012, 03:27:40 PM »
The full moon after the Vernal Equinox this year is April 6 or April 7 (depending on where you are in the world). Thus, the first Sunday after the first full moon is April 8. Would anyone care to explain why we are not having Pascha on the 8th? I think that the Roman Catholics of the Holy land are mighty generous to overlook this discrepancy.

Well, there have been a few brave Orthodox scholars who would agree with you on that point....and our insistence on using a secular calendar which is no longer anywhere nearly in sync with the observed positions of the planets and stars et al and the 'real world' positioning of the equinox is one part of the answer. But why bring that up now?  ;)
« Last Edit: April 05, 2012, 03:29:18 PM by podkarpatska »

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Catholics in the Holy Land to celebrate Orthodox Easter
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2012, 03:34:38 PM »
The full moon after the Vernal Equinox this year is April 6 or April 7 (depending on where you are in the world). Thus, the first Sunday after the first full moon is April 8. Would anyone care to explain why we are not having Pascha on the 8th? I think that the Roman Catholics of the Holy land are mighty generous to overlook this discrepancy.

Well, there have been a few brave Orthodox scholars who would agree with you on that point....and our insistence on using a secular calendar which is no longer anywhere nearly in sync with the observed positions of the planets and stars et al and the 'real world' positioning of the equinox is one part of the answer. But why bring that up now?  ;)

The irony of this thread got to me. Sorry.

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Catholics in the Holy Land to celebrate Orthodox Easter
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2012, 03:38:25 PM »
The full moon after the Vernal Equinox this year is April 6 or April 7 (depending on where you are in the world). Thus, the first Sunday after the first full moon is April 8. Would anyone care to explain why we are not having Pascha on the 8th? I think that the Roman Catholics of the Holy land are mighty generous to overlook this discrepancy.

Well, there have been a few brave Orthodox scholars who would agree with you on that point....and our insistence on using a secular calendar which is no longer anywhere nearly in sync with the observed positions of the planets and stars et al and the 'real world' positioning of the equinox is one part of the answer. But why bring that up now?  ;)

The irony of this thread got to me. Sorry.

But, you do not disagree with what I alluded to, do you?

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Catholics in the Holy Land to celebrate Orthodox Easter
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2012, 04:13:13 PM »

No.  You have to go by the "Paschal Full Moon" which isn't until April 11th, and therefore, the following Sunday is April 15th.
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Offline Schultz

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Re: Catholics in the Holy Land to celebrate Orthodox Easter
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2012, 04:33:14 PM »

No.  You have to go by the "Paschal Full Moon" which isn't until April 11th, and therefore, the following Sunday is April 15th.

Indeed. From the wiki article on the paschal full moon:

Quote
The date of Easter is determined as the first Sunday after the paschal full moon. This "full moon" does not currently correspond directly to any astronomical event, but is instead the 14th day of a lunar month, determined from tables. It may differ from the date of the actual full moon by up to two days.[1]
« Last Edit: April 05, 2012, 04:33:30 PM by Schultz »
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Catholics in the Holy Land to celebrate Orthodox Easter
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2012, 05:31:15 PM »
Podkarpadska--You read my mind. For others who did not, I was alluding to a study by Orthodox theologians who said that the RC are doing the right thing and not the EO. I know: gasp, choke, hurl, etc... :P

Liza--When did an Ecumenical Council change the first Sunday after the first full moon to the Pascal moon?

Schultz--When/who decided to change definition of a full moon? I know that an Ecumenical Council decreed that the Vernal Equinox will be standardized to March 23rd (I am not exactly sure if this date is 21st, 22nd or 23rd, but it was close enough to the actual Vernal Equinox at that time). Incidentally, April 11 is somewhat longer than 2 days from the actual full moon, no?

All--It is not my intention to rile up the masses on this. I just want to pint out the incredibly nice gesture that our Roman Catholic brothers and sisters are doing in Palestine. They are willing to overlook the problems that are with the calculations of the Orthodox Pascha in order to make Pascha a better experience for the ordinary folks. Imagine that!
« Last Edit: April 05, 2012, 05:33:19 PM by Second Chance »

Offline Fr. George

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Re: Catholics in the Holy Land to celebrate Orthodox Easter
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2012, 05:36:46 PM »

No.  You have to go by the "Paschal Full Moon" which isn't until April 11th, and therefore, the following Sunday is April 15th.

Indeed. From the wiki article on the paschal full moon:

Quote
The date of Easter is determined as the first Sunday after the paschal full moon. This "full moon" does not currently correspond directly to any astronomical event, but is instead the 14th day of a lunar month, determined from tables. It may differ from the date of the actual full moon by up to two days.[1]

Right.  Basically, instead of trying to calculate the date year-to-year, the Church decided to pre-calculate the date for a long time, codify a cycle, and follow that cycle.  And when it is out-of-synch with actual full moons and equinoxes, we still are ok - being the Body of Christ has its benefits.
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Catholics in the Holy Land to celebrate Orthodox Easter
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2012, 05:41:14 PM »

Liza--When did an Ecumenical Council change the first Sunday after the first full moon to the Pascal moon?

Council of Nicea in 325 A.D.


All--It is not my intention to rile up the masses on this. I just want to pint out the incredibly nice gesture that our Roman Catholic brothers and sisters are doing in Palestine. They are willing to overlook the problems that are with the calculations of the Orthodox Pascha in order to make Pascha a better experience for the ordinary folks. Imagine that!

....they just want to participate in the Holy Fire!   ;)

Actually, I think it's great.  I hope this is just step one of many steps that they will take towards Orthodoxy.

« Last Edit: April 05, 2012, 05:41:24 PM by LizaSymonenko »
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Catholics in the Holy Land to celebrate Orthodox Easter
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2012, 06:03:25 PM »
....they just want to participate in the Holy Fire!   ;)

They still can't.  Due to the Status Quo Catholics services at the Churches of the Resurrection and the Nativity will remain on the Gregorian Paschalion.
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Offline Father H

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Re: Catholics in the Holy Land to celebrate Orthodox Easter
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2012, 06:33:07 PM »

No.  You have to go by the "Paschal Full Moon" which isn't until April 11th, and therefore, the following Sunday is April 15th.

Indeed. From the wiki article on the paschal full moon:

Quote
The date of Easter is determined as the first Sunday after the paschal full moon. This "full moon" does not currently correspond directly to any astronomical event, but is instead the 14th day of a lunar month, determined from tables. It may differ from the date of the actual full moon by up to two days.[1]

Right.  Basically, instead of trying to calculate the date year-to-year, the Church decided to pre-calculate the date for a long time, codify a cycle, and follow that cycle.  And when it is out-of-synch with actual full moons and equinoxes, we still are ok - being the Body of Christ has its benefits.

Correct.  Is 1st Sunday after 14 Nisan based on the indiction cycles.   The whole nonsensical argument that Nicea I decreed that it was first Sunday after vernal equinox holds no water for those of us who know that the decree is not extant and have read the actual reports of the fathers that did have the council's ruling and told us about it.  St. Ambrose tells us that the acts of Nicea called the cycle the "nonus decennial."  It is also St. Ambrose that tells us that the Nicene decree states that "the 14th moon [of Aviv/Nisan] is not to be set as the day of Resurrection, but rather on the day of the passion of Christ, or on another preceding day, since the celebration of the Resurrection is celebrated on Sunday." 
(Epistle XXIII.1).   Also the Epistle of St. Cyril of Alexandria to St. Leo (as Rome and Alexandria frequently had rubs in the centuries following Nicea on the exact date):  “Let us carefully examine the decree of the Synod in Nicea with regard to its calculation of the fourteen moons of each month of the nineteen-year cycle; for at every synod [since that time], it has been decreed that no Church may do anything at odds with this resolution agreed upon at the Synod of Nicea regarding Pascha”

 

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Catholics in the Holy Land to celebrate Orthodox Easter
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2012, 08:56:54 PM »
Podkarpadska--You read my mind. For others who did not, I was alluding to a study by Orthodox theologians who said that the RC are doing the right thing and not the EO. I know: gasp, choke, hurl, etc... :P

Liza--When did an Ecumenical Council change the first Sunday after the first full moon to the Pascal moon?

Schultz--When/who decided to change definition of a full moon? I know that an Ecumenical Council decreed that the Vernal Equinox will be standardized to March 23rd (I am not exactly sure if this date is 21st, 22nd or 23rd, but it was close enough to the actual Vernal Equinox at that time). Incidentally, April 11 is somewhat longer than 2 days from the actual full moon, no?

All--It is not my intention to rile up the masses on this. I just want to pint out the incredibly nice gesture that our Roman Catholic brothers and sisters are doing in Palestine. They are willing to overlook the problems that are with the calculations of the Orthodox Pascha in order to make Pascha a better experience for the ordinary folks. Imagine that!

I have heard both arguments about what Nicea actually did, or did not establish regarding the Pascalion. I can't help but wonder if any records are extant which precede the eleventh century, perhaps as recently as the fourteenth which could academically correspond to our modern calendar usage - I don't mean new, old or whatever - but as to the actual celebrations of Pascha. (Probably buried deep in the archives of the Vatican such records may exist but I suppose that the Orthodox would not regard them as legitimate if they did not correspond with our modern understandings.)

I can't help but wonder if at sometime, post schism, some degree of creativity or -perish the thought -reinterpretation of Nicea- was utilized to ensure that the Greeks and the Romans came to celebrate the Feast on the same date as rarely as possible - while each side attempted to remain consistent with the Nicean decrees. I know that some of you simply can not accept even the potentiality that the Greeks (i.e. the Orthodox as the Russians were not 'players' at that point in time) may have acted in such a manner. But one thing that the current relationships in the Church of Holy Sepulchre tells us is that the antipathy between the factions there is ancient and ongoing.

Offline Father H

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Re: Catholics in the Holy Land to celebrate Orthodox Easter
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2012, 10:08:26 PM »
Podkarpadska--You read my mind. For others who did not, I was alluding to a study by Orthodox theologians who said that the RC are doing the right thing and not the EO. I know: gasp, choke, hurl, etc... :P

Liza--When did an Ecumenical Council change the first Sunday after the first full moon to the Pascal moon?

Schultz--When/who decided to change definition of a full moon? I know that an Ecumenical Council decreed that the Vernal Equinox will be standardized to March 23rd (I am not exactly sure if this date is 21st, 22nd or 23rd, but it was close enough to the actual Vernal Equinox at that time). Incidentally, April 11 is somewhat longer than 2 days from the actual full moon, no?

All--It is not my intention to rile up the masses on this. I just want to pint out the incredibly nice gesture that our Roman Catholic brothers and sisters are doing in Palestine. They are willing to overlook the problems that are with the calculations of the Orthodox Pascha in order to make Pascha a better experience for the ordinary folks. Imagine that!

I have heard both arguments about what Nicea actually did, or did not establish regarding the Pascalion. I can't help but wonder if any records are extant which precede the eleventh century, perhaps as recently as the fourteenth which could academically correspond to our modern calendar usage - I don't mean new, old or whatever - but as to the actual celebrations of Pascha. (Probably buried deep in the archives of the Vatican such records may exist but I suppose that the Orthodox would not regard them as legitimate if they did not correspond with our modern understandings.)

I can't help but wonder if at sometime, post schism, some degree of creativity or -perish the thought -reinterpretation of Nicea- was utilized to ensure that the Greeks and the Romans came to celebrate the Feast on the same date as rarely as possible - while each side attempted to remain consistent with the Nicean decrees. I know that some of you simply can not accept even the potentiality that the Greeks (i.e. the Orthodox as the Russians were not 'players' at that point in time) may have acted in such a manner. But one thing that the current relationships in the Church of Holy Sepulchre tells us is that the antipathy between the factions there is ancient and ongoing.

Podkarpatska, did you ignore my post?  There are so many records from the 4th-11th century it is not even funny, both east and west.  One of the two I chose was St. Ambrose intentionally.  We also have clear answers from Epiphanius, Athanasius, and others from the 4th century quoting from the decisions of Nicea (that we only have from their quotations).   The history of the indiction, accepted in east and west until the 16th century, is undeniable.  That is not to say that the Church does not have the right to revisit, but what you have written simply does not match up to history at all.  It is times like this where I think that posting online is a complete waste of time.     

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Catholics in the Holy Land to celebrate Orthodox Easter
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2012, 10:32:25 PM »
Podkarpadska--You read my mind. For others who did not, I was alluding to a study by Orthodox theologians who said that the RC are doing the right thing and not the EO. I know: gasp, choke, hurl, etc... :P

Liza--When did an Ecumenical Council change the first Sunday after the first full moon to the Pascal moon?

Schultz--When/who decided to change definition of a full moon? I know that an Ecumenical Council decreed that the Vernal Equinox will be standardized to March 23rd (I am not exactly sure if this date is 21st, 22nd or 23rd, but it was close enough to the actual Vernal Equinox at that time). Incidentally, April 11 is somewhat longer than 2 days from the actual full moon, no?

All--It is not my intention to rile up the masses on this. I just want to pint out the incredibly nice gesture that our Roman Catholic brothers and sisters are doing in Palestine. They are willing to overlook the problems that are with the calculations of the Orthodox Pascha in order to make Pascha a better experience for the ordinary folks. Imagine that!

I have heard both arguments about what Nicea actually did, or did not establish regarding the Pascalion. I can't help but wonder if any records are extant which precede the eleventh century, perhaps as recently as the fourteenth which could academically correspond to our modern calendar usage - I don't mean new, old or whatever - but as to the actual celebrations of Pascha. (Probably buried deep in the archives of the Vatican such records may exist but I suppose that the Orthodox would not regard them as legitimate if they did not correspond with our modern understandings.)

I can't help but wonder if at sometime, post schism, some degree of creativity or -perish the thought -reinterpretation of Nicea- was utilized to ensure that the Greeks and the Romans came to celebrate the Feast on the same date as rarely as possible - while each side attempted to remain consistent with the Nicean decrees. I know that some of you simply can not accept even the potentiality that the Greeks (i.e. the Orthodox as the Russians were not 'players' at that point in time) may have acted in such a manner. But one thing that the current relationships in the Church of Holy Sepulchre tells us is that the antipathy between the factions there is ancient and ongoing.

Podkarpatska, did you ignore my post?  There are so many records from the 4th-11th century it is not even funny, both east and west.  One of the two I chose was St. Ambrose intentionally.  We also have clear answers from Epiphanius, Athanasius, and others from the 4th century quoting from the decisions of Nicea (that we only have from their quotations).   The history of the indiction, accepted in east and west until the 16th century, is undeniable.  That is not to say that the Church does not have the right to revisit, but what you have written simply does not match up to history at all.  It is times like this where I think that posting online is a complete waste of time.     

I understand your argument and I am familiar with the sources you reference, but I do not think this question is as open and shut as you would have us take it.

From the archives of the EA of our North American Orthodox Bishops, under the prior SCOBA name I offer the following:

       Celebrating Easter/Pascha Together
       The North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation
       Georgetown University, Washington, DC October 2010

The Council of Nicaea was willing to make use of contemporary science to calculate the date of Easter/Pascha. We believe that this principle still holds valid today. Scientific observations about the cosmos reveal the goodness and wonder of God's creation, which he embraced in the incarnation of his Son. Moreover, to deny an observable truth about the world is to reject God's gift to us. As they witness to God's love for the world, our churches need to use the findings of contemporary science as did the Fathers of Nicaea.

The key today to resolving the issue in accordance with the mandate of Nicaea is to determine the Equinox from the meridian of Jerusalem (Longitude 35° 13'47.1) using the most accurate scientific instruments and astronomical data available.  This will resolve the conflict in our liturgical observance by aligning existing Church calendars to the Nicene formula-- not just the calendar from one set of Churches, but from both Eastern and Western traditions. As disciples of the Risen Lord who all profess adherence to the mandate of the Council of Nicaea, we find a profound need to adhere to Nicaea’s formulae, and to calculate the yearly date accurately.  As Churches whose faith is rooted in Scripture and Tradition, let us ensure we stay rooted in The One Who is Truth.

http://www.scoba.us/articles/celebrating-easter-pascha.html

While his opinion is certainly not authoritative (Those of us who have had the privilege to know him know that he would be the first to tell anyone who asked him that such was certainly the case!), His Eminence, the retired and esteemed Metropolitan Maximos of Pittsburgh, was the Orthodox Chair of this committee and an active participant of it for many years  - including the time at which this statement was formulated and published, and if His Eminence felt the question was as easily addressed as your post suggests, or that this statement contained material misrepresentations of Orthodox doctrine, this statement would not have been forthcoming, nor would it remain posted on our Bishops' website.

I am not saying the consultation's position paper is correct here, but that your comment about 'wasting time' seems inappropriate.

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Catholics in the Holy Land to celebrate Orthodox Easter
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2012, 12:32:20 PM »

Correct.  Is 1st Sunday after 14 Nisan based on the indiction cycles.   The whole nonsensical argument that Nicea I decreed that it was first Sunday after vernal equinox holds no water for those of us who know that the decree is not extant and have read the actual reports of the fathers that did have the council's ruling and told us about it.  St. Ambrose tells us that the acts of Nicea called the cycle the "nonus decennial."  It is also St. Ambrose that tells us that the Nicene decree states that "the 14th moon [of Aviv/Nisan] is not to be set as the day of Resurrection, but rather on the day of the passion of Christ, or on another preceding day, since the celebration of the Resurrection is celebrated on Sunday." 
(Epistle XXIII.1).   Also the Epistle of St. Cyril of Alexandria to St. Leo (as Rome and Alexandria frequently had rubs in the centuries following Nicea on the exact date):  “Let us carefully examine the decree of the Synod in Nicea with regard to its calculation of the fourteen moons of each month of the nineteen-year cycle; for at every synod [since that time], it has been decreed that no Church may do anything at odds with this resolution agreed upon at the Synod of Nicea regarding Pascha”

Except of course that Nisan is the first month of the Jewish Calendar.  Jewish months begin on the new moon and Nisan begins on the Spring new moon which makes the 14th of Nisan the first full moon after the Vernal Equinox of the Nothern Hemisphere. So if Pascha is to be the fist Sunday after 14 Nisan it will be the first Sunday after the first full moon atfter the Vernal Equinox of the Northern Hemisphere.  The Fathers of Nicea's first concern was to stop the celebration of Pascha on 14 Nisan, regardless of the day of the week and fix it to the Sunday after.  The second was to avoid relying on the Jewish calculation of 14 Nisan.  Their calculation became scewed and they would some time celebrate Passover before the Vernal Equinox and the Fathers deplored this.  It would seem clear then that the actual Veranl Equinox was the reference point for Pascha.  That both Churches, East and West, adopted "Paschal Full Moon" tables to predict the future dates for Pascha is a secondary issue and still leaves the difference of using 19 or 84 year cycles but does not detract from the main issue which was to ensure Pascha was celebrated on the Sunday after 14 Nisan and that 14 Nisan be after the Vernal Equinox.
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Offline mike

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Re: Catholics in the Holy Land to celebrate Orthodox Easter
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2012, 12:41:48 PM »
....they just want to participate in the Holy Fire!   ;)

They still can't.  Due to the Status Quo Catholics services at the Churches of the Resurrection and the Nativity will remain on the Gregorian Paschalion.

So how will they switch the day of Pascha if they keep having services as they used too?
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Catholics in the Holy Land to celebrate Orthodox Easter
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2012, 02:25:49 PM »

Correct.  Is 1st Sunday after 14 Nisan based on the indiction cycles.   The whole nonsensical argument that Nicea I decreed that it was first Sunday after vernal equinox holds no water for those of us who know that the decree is not extant and have read the actual reports of the fathers that did have the council's ruling and told us about it.  St. Ambrose tells us that the acts of Nicea called the cycle the "nonus decennial."  It is also St. Ambrose that tells us that the Nicene decree states that "the 14th moon [of Aviv/Nisan] is not to be set as the day of Resurrection, but rather on the day of the passion of Christ, or on another preceding day, since the celebration of the Resurrection is celebrated on Sunday."  
(Epistle XXIII.1).   Also the Epistle of St. Cyril of Alexandria to St. Leo (as Rome and Alexandria frequently had rubs in the centuries following Nicea on the exact date):  “Let us carefully examine the decree of the Synod in Nicea with regard to its calculation of the fourteen moons of each month of the nineteen-year cycle; for at every synod [since that time], it has been decreed that no Church may do anything at odds with this resolution agreed upon at the Synod of Nicea regarding Pascha”

Except of course that Nisan is the first month of the Jewish Calendar.  Jewish months begin on the new moon and Nisan begins on the Spring new moon which makes the 14th of Nisan the first full moon after the Vernal Equinox of the Nothern Hemisphere. So if Pascha is to be the fist Sunday after 14 Nisan it will be the first Sunday after the first full moon atfter the Vernal Equinox of the Northern Hemisphere.  The Fathers of Nicea's first concern was to stop the celebration of Pascha on 14 Nisan, regardless of the day of the week and fix it to the Sunday after.  The second was to avoid relying on the Jewish calculation of 14 Nisan.  Their calculation became scewed and they would some time celebrate Passover before the Vernal Equinox and the Fathers deplored this.  It would seem clear then that the actual Veranl Equinox was the reference point for Pascha.  That both Churches, East and West, adopted "Paschal Full Moon" tables to predict the future dates for Pascha is a secondary issue and still leaves the difference of using 19 or 84 year cycles but does not detract from the main issue which was to ensure Pascha was celebrated on the Sunday after 14 Nisan and that 14 Nisan be after the Vernal Equinox.

The culprit here is the adherence by the Orthodox to the Julian calendar. The following analysis makes my point I believe:

"According to the Gregorian calendar, Easter falls on a Sunday between March 22 and April 25 from 1753 to 2400. In the Julian calendar, used by some eastern or Orthodox churches, Easter also falls on a Sunday from March 22 to April 25, which in the Gregorian calendar are from April 3 to May 10 from 1753 to 2400.

In 2007 Easter fell on the same date (April 8th) in both calendars when the Julian date was converted to the Gregorian date. This happens in some years, such as 2004, 2010 and 2011."
http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/determining-easter-date.html

There is no question that March 21st, as an approximation for the Vernal Equinox, was a good date on the Julian Calendar when this date was picked. It no longer is a good approximation if one continues to use the Julian Calendar. Thus, I do not think that the Orthodox Church is in compliance with the decision of the First Ecumenical Council. Granted the absence of a decree is a problem but there is supposed to be a letter from St Constantine, the convener of the Council, that states what I have said and what Deacon Lance has confirmed. What Podkarpatska cited (the Consultation's Position Paper) is solidly in line with the decision of the Council and should be implemented as soon as possible. It is time that we start conforming to God's time.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2012, 02:26:59 PM by Second Chance »

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Catholics in the Holy Land to celebrate Orthodox Easter
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2012, 02:34:16 PM »

Correct.  Is 1st Sunday after 14 Nisan based on the indiction cycles.   The whole nonsensical argument that Nicea I decreed that it was first Sunday after vernal equinox holds no water for those of us who know that the decree is not extant and have read the actual reports of the fathers that did have the council's ruling and told us about it.  St. Ambrose tells us that the acts of Nicea called the cycle the "nonus decennial."  It is also St. Ambrose that tells us that the Nicene decree states that "the 14th moon [of Aviv/Nisan] is not to be set as the day of Resurrection, but rather on the day of the passion of Christ, or on another preceding day, since the celebration of the Resurrection is celebrated on Sunday."  
(Epistle XXIII.1).   Also the Epistle of St. Cyril of Alexandria to St. Leo (as Rome and Alexandria frequently had rubs in the centuries following Nicea on the exact date):  “Let us carefully examine the decree of the Synod in Nicea with regard to its calculation of the fourteen moons of each month of the nineteen-year cycle; for at every synod [since that time], it has been decreed that no Church may do anything at odds with this resolution agreed upon at the Synod of Nicea regarding Pascha”

Except of course that Nisan is the first month of the Jewish Calendar.  Jewish months begin on the new moon and Nisan begins on the Spring new moon which makes the 14th of Nisan the first full moon after the Vernal Equinox of the Nothern Hemisphere. So if Pascha is to be the fist Sunday after 14 Nisan it will be the first Sunday after the first full moon atfter the Vernal Equinox of the Northern Hemisphere.  The Fathers of Nicea's first concern was to stop the celebration of Pascha on 14 Nisan, regardless of the day of the week and fix it to the Sunday after.  The second was to avoid relying on the Jewish calculation of 14 Nisan.  Their calculation became scewed and they would some time celebrate Passover before the Vernal Equinox and the Fathers deplored this.  It would seem clear then that the actual Veranl Equinox was the reference point for Pascha.  That both Churches, East and West, adopted "Paschal Full Moon" tables to predict the future dates for Pascha is a secondary issue and still leaves the difference of using 19 or 84 year cycles but does not detract from the main issue which was to ensure Pascha was celebrated on the Sunday after 14 Nisan and that 14 Nisan be after the Vernal Equinox.

The culprit here is the adherence by the Orthodox to the Julian calendar. The following analysis makes my point I believe:

"According to the Gregorian calendar, Easter falls on a Sunday between March 22 and April 25 from 1753 to 2400. In the Julian calendar, used by some eastern or Orthodox churches, Easter also falls on a Sunday from March 22 to April 25, which in the Gregorian calendar are from April 3 to May 10 from 1753 to 2400.

In 2007 Easter fell on the same date (April 8th) in both calendars when the Julian date was converted to the Gregorian date. This happens in some years, such as 2004, 2010 and 2011."
http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/determining-easter-date.html

There is no question that March 21st, as an approximation for the Vernal Equinox, was a good date on the Julian Calendar when this date was picked. It no longer is a good approximation if one continues to use the Julian Calendar. Thus, I do not think that the Orthodox Church is in compliance with the decision of the First Ecumenical Council. Granted the absence of a decree is a problem but there is supposed to be a letter from St Constantine, the convener of the Council, that states what I have said and what Deacon Lance has confirmed. What Podkarpatska cited (the Consultation's Position Paper) is solidly in line with the decision of the Council and should be implemented as soon as possible. It is time that we start conforming to God's time.

Hmm now where did we put that letter? I swore I saw it around here somewhere...

Offline witega

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Re: Catholics in the Holy Land to celebrate Orthodox Easter
« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2012, 03:25:41 PM »

Correct.  Is 1st Sunday after 14 Nisan based on the indiction cycles.   The whole nonsensical argument that Nicea I decreed that it was first Sunday after vernal equinox holds no water for those of us who know that the decree is not extant and have read the actual reports of the fathers that did have the council's ruling and told us about it.  St. Ambrose tells us that the acts of Nicea called the cycle the "nonus decennial."  It is also St. Ambrose that tells us that the Nicene decree states that "the 14th moon [of Aviv/Nisan] is not to be set as the day of Resurrection, but rather on the day of the passion of Christ, or on another preceding day, since the celebration of the Resurrection is celebrated on Sunday."  
(Epistle XXIII.1).   Also the Epistle of St. Cyril of Alexandria to St. Leo (as Rome and Alexandria frequently had rubs in the centuries following Nicea on the exact date):  “Let us carefully examine the decree of the Synod in Nicea with regard to its calculation of the fourteen moons of each month of the nineteen-year cycle; for at every synod [since that time], it has been decreed that no Church may do anything at odds with this resolution agreed upon at the Synod of Nicea regarding Pascha”

Except of course that Nisan is the first month of the Jewish Calendar.  Jewish months begin on the new moon and Nisan begins on the Spring new moon which makes the 14th of Nisan the first full moon after the Vernal Equinox of the Nothern Hemisphere. So if Pascha is to be the fist Sunday after 14 Nisan it will be the first Sunday after the first full moon atfter the Vernal Equinox of the Northern Hemisphere.  The Fathers of Nicea's first concern was to stop the celebration of Pascha on 14 Nisan, regardless of the day of the week and fix it to the Sunday after.  The second was to avoid relying on the Jewish calculation of 14 Nisan.  Their calculation became scewed and they would some time celebrate Passover before the Vernal Equinox and the Fathers deplored this.  It would seem clear then that the actual Veranl Equinox was the reference point for Pascha.  That both Churches, East and West, adopted "Paschal Full Moon" tables to predict the future dates for Pascha is a secondary issue and still leaves the difference of using 19 or 84 year cycles but does not detract from the main issue which was to ensure Pascha was celebrated on the Sunday after 14 Nisan and that 14 Nisan be after the Vernal Equinox.

The culprit here is the adherence by the Orthodox to the Julian calendar. The following analysis makes my point I believe:

"According to the Gregorian calendar, Easter falls on a Sunday between March 22 and April 25 from 1753 to 2400. In the Julian calendar, used by some eastern or Orthodox churches, Easter also falls on a Sunday from March 22 to April 25, which in the Gregorian calendar are from April 3 to May 10 from 1753 to 2400.

In 2007 Easter fell on the same date (April 8th) in both calendars when the Julian date was converted to the Gregorian date. This happens in some years, such as 2004, 2010 and 2011."
http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/determining-easter-date.html

There is no question that March 21st, as an approximation for the Vernal Equinox, was a good date on the Julian Calendar when this date was picked. It no longer is a good approximation if one continues to use the Julian Calendar. Thus, I do not think that the Orthodox Church is in compliance with the decision of the First Ecumenical Council. Granted the absence of a decree is a problem but there is supposed to be a letter from St Constantine, the convener of the Council, that states what I have said and what Deacon Lance has confirmed. What Podkarpatska cited (the Consultation's Position Paper) is solidly in line with the decision of the Council and should be implemented as soon as possible. It is time that we start conforming to God's time.

Hmm now where did we put that letter? I swore I saw it around here somewhere...

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.vii.x.html
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Catholics in the Holy Land to celebrate Orthodox Easter
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2012, 04:24:45 PM »

Correct.  Is 1st Sunday after 14 Nisan based on the indiction cycles.   The whole nonsensical argument that Nicea I decreed that it was first Sunday after vernal equinox holds no water for those of us who know that the decree is not extant and have read the actual reports of the fathers that did have the council's ruling and told us about it.  St. Ambrose tells us that the acts of Nicea called the cycle the "nonus decennial."  It is also St. Ambrose that tells us that the Nicene decree states that "the 14th moon [of Aviv/Nisan] is not to be set as the day of Resurrection, but rather on the day of the passion of Christ, or on another preceding day, since the celebration of the Resurrection is celebrated on Sunday."  
(Epistle XXIII.1).   Also the Epistle of St. Cyril of Alexandria to St. Leo (as Rome and Alexandria frequently had rubs in the centuries following Nicea on the exact date):  “Let us carefully examine the decree of the Synod in Nicea with regard to its calculation of the fourteen moons of each month of the nineteen-year cycle; for at every synod [since that time], it has been decreed that no Church may do anything at odds with this resolution agreed upon at the Synod of Nicea regarding Pascha”

Except of course that Nisan is the first month of the Jewish Calendar.  Jewish months begin on the new moon and Nisan begins on the Spring new moon which makes the 14th of Nisan the first full moon after the Vernal Equinox of the Nothern Hemisphere. So if Pascha is to be the fist Sunday after 14 Nisan it will be the first Sunday after the first full moon atfter the Vernal Equinox of the Northern Hemisphere.  The Fathers of Nicea's first concern was to stop the celebration of Pascha on 14 Nisan, regardless of the day of the week and fix it to the Sunday after.  The second was to avoid relying on the Jewish calculation of 14 Nisan.  Their calculation became scewed and they would some time celebrate Passover before the Vernal Equinox and the Fathers deplored this.  It would seem clear then that the actual Veranl Equinox was the reference point for Pascha.  That both Churches, East and West, adopted "Paschal Full Moon" tables to predict the future dates for Pascha is a secondary issue and still leaves the difference of using 19 or 84 year cycles but does not detract from the main issue which was to ensure Pascha was celebrated on the Sunday after 14 Nisan and that 14 Nisan be after the Vernal Equinox.

The culprit here is the adherence by the Orthodox to the Julian calendar. The following analysis makes my point I believe:

"According to the Gregorian calendar, Easter falls on a Sunday between March 22 and April 25 from 1753 to 2400. In the Julian calendar, used by some eastern or Orthodox churches, Easter also falls on a Sunday from March 22 to April 25, which in the Gregorian calendar are from April 3 to May 10 from 1753 to 2400.

In 2007 Easter fell on the same date (April 8th) in both calendars when the Julian date was converted to the Gregorian date. This happens in some years, such as 2004, 2010 and 2011."
http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/determining-easter-date.html

There is no question that March 21st, as an approximation for the Vernal Equinox, was a good date on the Julian Calendar when this date was picked. It no longer is a good approximation if one continues to use the Julian Calendar. Thus, I do not think that the Orthodox Church is in compliance with the decision of the First Ecumenical Council. Granted the absence of a decree is a problem but there is supposed to be a letter from St Constantine, the convener of the Council, that states what I have said and what Deacon Lance has confirmed. What Podkarpatska cited (the Consultation's Position Paper) is solidly in line with the decision of the Council and should be implemented as soon as possible. It is time that we start conforming to God's time.

Hmm now where did we put that letter? I swore I saw it around here somewhere...

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.vii.x.html

The only thing that the letter says clearly is that we are to celebrate Pascha on the same day, which is to be a Sunday. Reading between the lines, we see that there were two general approaches; that of the Church of Antioch and the rest of the Churches. The Council picked the majority method. By analyzing the discussions between Rome and Alexandria, we do find that the general princip0le that was accepted was indeed "the first Sunday after the first full moon after the Vernal Equinox." It seems that at first the full moon was the astronomical one but later was decreed to be March 21st as the Paschal Moon (probably a compromise between Rome and Alexandria). In any case, for ease of uniform observance, churches did start putting the dates in tables. It also is true that the date of the Paschal Moon was supposed not to deviate from the astronomical full moon by more than two days. Thus, we see that almost everybody who has posted so far had gotten some part of the story right. Over time, it appears that the concept of astronomical accuracy (what I refer to as God's time) was replaced with conformity with the policy and practice of the Church.

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Catholics in the Holy Land to celebrate Orthodox Easter
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2012, 05:09:05 PM »
....they just want to participate in the Holy Fire!   ;)

They still can't.  Due to the Status Quo Catholics services at the Churches of the Resurrection and the Nativity will remain on the Gregorian Paschalion.

So how will they switch the day of Pascha if they keep having services as they used too?

The parishes throughout Israel will switch but these two will remain.
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Catholics in the Holy Land to celebrate Orthodox Easter
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2012, 07:05:30 PM »

Correct.  Is 1st Sunday after 14 Nisan based on the indiction cycles.   The whole nonsensical argument that Nicea I decreed that it was first Sunday after vernal equinox holds no water for those of us who know that the decree is not extant and have read the actual reports of the fathers that did have the council's ruling and told us about it.  St. Ambrose tells us that the acts of Nicea called the cycle the "nonus decennial."  It is also St. Ambrose that tells us that the Nicene decree states that "the 14th moon [of Aviv/Nisan] is not to be set as the day of Resurrection, but rather on the day of the passion of Christ, or on another preceding day, since the celebration of the Resurrection is celebrated on Sunday."  
(Epistle XXIII.1).   Also the Epistle of St. Cyril of Alexandria to St. Leo (as Rome and Alexandria frequently had rubs in the centuries following Nicea on the exact date):  “Let us carefully examine the decree of the Synod in Nicea with regard to its calculation of the fourteen moons of each month of the nineteen-year cycle; for at every synod [since that time], it has been decreed that no Church may do anything at odds with this resolution agreed upon at the Synod of Nicea regarding Pascha”

Except of course that Nisan is the first month of the Jewish Calendar.  Jewish months begin on the new moon and Nisan begins on the Spring new moon which makes the 14th of Nisan the first full moon after the Vernal Equinox of the Nothern Hemisphere. So if Pascha is to be the fist Sunday after 14 Nisan it will be the first Sunday after the first full moon atfter the Vernal Equinox of the Northern Hemisphere.  The Fathers of Nicea's first concern was to stop the celebration of Pascha on 14 Nisan, regardless of the day of the week and fix it to the Sunday after.  The second was to avoid relying on the Jewish calculation of 14 Nisan.  Their calculation became scewed and they would some time celebrate Passover before the Vernal Equinox and the Fathers deplored this.  It would seem clear then that the actual Veranl Equinox was the reference point for Pascha.  That both Churches, East and West, adopted "Paschal Full Moon" tables to predict the future dates for Pascha is a secondary issue and still leaves the difference of using 19 or 84 year cycles but does not detract from the main issue which was to ensure Pascha was celebrated on the Sunday after 14 Nisan and that 14 Nisan be after the Vernal Equinox.

The culprit here is the adherence by the Orthodox to the Julian calendar. The following analysis makes my point I believe:

"According to the Gregorian calendar, Easter falls on a Sunday between March 22 and April 25 from 1753 to 2400. In the Julian calendar, used by some eastern or Orthodox churches, Easter also falls on a Sunday from March 22 to April 25, which in the Gregorian calendar are from April 3 to May 10 from 1753 to 2400.

In 2007 Easter fell on the same date (April 8th) in both calendars when the Julian date was converted to the Gregorian date. This happens in some years, such as 2004, 2010 and 2011."
http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/determining-easter-date.html

There is no question that March 21st, as an approximation for the Vernal Equinox, was a good date on the Julian Calendar when this date was picked. It no longer is a good approximation if one continues to use the Julian Calendar. Thus, I do not think that the Orthodox Church is in compliance with the decision of the First Ecumenical Council. Granted the absence of a decree is a problem but there is supposed to be a letter from St Constantine, the convener of the Council, that states what I have said and what Deacon Lance has confirmed. What Podkarpatska cited (the Consultation's Position Paper) is solidly in line with the decision of the Council and should be implemented as soon as possible. It is time that we start conforming to God's time.

I read something today on Yahoo News that makes this whole thing even weirder. From now through the year 2100, the vernal equinox in the northern hemisphere will be on March 20th NS.

The first full moon of spring is usually designated as the Paschal Full Moon or the Paschal Term.  Traditionally, Easter is observed on the Sunday after the Paschal Full Moon. If the Paschal Moon occurs on a Sunday, Easter is the following Sunday.
 
Following these rules, we find that the date of Easter can fall as early as March 22 and as late as April 25. Pope Gregory XIII decreed this in 1582 as part of the Gregorian calendar. So according to the current ecclesiastical rules, Easter Sunday in 2012 is to be celebrated April 8.

Interestingly, these rules also state that the vernal equinox is fixed on March 21, despite the fact that from the years 2008 through 2101, at European longitudes it actually will occur no later than March 20.

Adding additional confusion is that there is also an "ecclesiastical" full moon, determined from ecclesiastical tables, whose date does not necessarily coincide with the "astronomical" full moon, which is based solely on astronomical calculations. In 1981, for example, the full moon occurred on Sunday, April 19, so Easter should have occurred on the following Sunday, April 26. But based on the ecclesiastical full moon, it occurred on the same day of the astronomical full moon, April 19!

Hence, there can sometimes be discrepancies between the ecclesiastical and astronomical versions for dating Easter. In the year 2038, for instance, the equinox will fall on March 20, with a full moon the next day, so astronomically speaking, Easter should fall on March 28 of that year. In reality, however, as mandated by the rules of the church, Easter 2038 will be observed as late as it can possibly come, on April 25. http://news.yahoo.com/moon-affects-date-easter-131202555.html 

This whole issue is confusing to the nth degree.

Offline Father H

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Re: Catholics in the Holy Land to celebrate Orthodox Easter
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2012, 10:49:53 PM »

Correct.  Is 1st Sunday after 14 Nisan based on the indiction cycles.   The whole nonsensical argument that Nicea I decreed that it was first Sunday after vernal equinox holds no water for those of us who know that the decree is not extant and have read the actual reports of the fathers that did have the council's ruling and told us about it.  St. Ambrose tells us that the acts of Nicea called the cycle the "nonus decennial."  It is also St. Ambrose that tells us that the Nicene decree states that "the 14th moon [of Aviv/Nisan] is not to be set as the day of Resurrection, but rather on the day of the passion of Christ, or on another preceding day, since the celebration of the Resurrection is celebrated on Sunday." 
(Epistle XXIII.1).   Also the Epistle of St. Cyril of Alexandria to St. Leo (as Rome and Alexandria frequently had rubs in the centuries following Nicea on the exact date):  “Let us carefully examine the decree of the Synod in Nicea with regard to its calculation of the fourteen moons of each month of the nineteen-year cycle; for at every synod [since that time], it has been decreed that no Church may do anything at odds with this resolution agreed upon at the Synod of Nicea regarding Pascha”



Except of course that Nisan is the first month of the Jewish Calendar.  Jewish months begin on the new moon and Nisan begins on the Spring new moon which makes the 14th of Nisan the first full moon after the Vernal Equinox of the Nothern Hemisphere. So if Pascha is to be the fist Sunday after 14 Nisan it will be the first Sunday after the first full moon atfter the Vernal Equinox of the Northern Hemisphere.  The Fathers of Nicea's first concern was to stop the celebration of Pascha on 14 Nisan, regardless of the day of the week and fix it to the Sunday after.  The second was to avoid relying on the Jewish calculation of 14 Nisan.  Their calculation became scewed and they would some time celebrate Passover before the Vernal Equinox and the Fathers deplored this.  It would seem clear then that the actual Veranl Equinox was the reference point for Pascha.  That both Churches, East and West, adopted "Paschal Full Moon" tables to predict the future dates for Pascha is a secondary issue and still leaves the difference of using 19 or 84 year cycles but does not detract from the main issue which was to ensure Pascha was celebrated on the Sunday after 14 Nisan and that 14 Nisan be after the Vernal Equinox.

Where is the "except" part?  We know that for centuries the Hebrews used tables rather than the actual full moon.  So tables were not a detraction from that. 

Also (not your point but that of another), the theory that the Julian calendar is the culprit is flat out wrong.  In fact, we were dealing with three calendars, one being a revised Julian of the time, but the most different was the Alexandrian calendar, which had completely different months than the roman calendar and different days (one month on one calendar started in the middle of another).  That is why there were so many dialogues or dare I say disputes during the 4th and 5th centuries between Alexandria and Rome on the proper date year after year. 

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Catholics in the Holy Land to celebrate Orthodox Easter
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2012, 11:33:16 PM »
Where is the "except" part?  We know that for centuries the Hebrews used tables rather than the actual full moon.  So tables were not a detraction from that. 

You stated that Nicea did not decree Pascha was to be the first Sunday after the first full moon after the Vernal Equinox but rather that it decreed Pascha was to be the first Sunday after 14 Nisan.  They are the same day. 

And tables are a problem.  The Jews started using tables instead of the astronomical event and ended up celebrating Passover twice in one year.  Our tables our more accurate but why use tables in the present day of accurate astronomical observation and instant communication?
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Offline Father H

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Re: Catholics in the Holy Land to celebrate Orthodox Easter
« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2012, 12:06:21 AM »
Where is the "except" part?  We know that for centuries the Hebrews used tables rather than the actual full moon.  So tables were not a detraction from that. 

You stated that Nicea did not decree Pascha was to be the first Sunday after the first full moon after the Vernal Equinox but rather that it decreed Pascha was to be the first Sunday after 14 Nisan.  They are the same day. 

And tables are a problem.  The Jews started using tables instead of the astronomical event and ended up celebrating Passover twice in one year.  Our tables our more accurate but why use tables in the present day of accurate astronomical observation and instant communication?

I had already stated in previous post that the Church has the right to revisit this.
They are not the same day, even if going by the moon.  The 14th moon is the 14th visible moon.  The Hebrew's "new moon" was not the "black moon" we call a new moon today, but what we call the "young crescent," and thus the 14th moon being the 14th day of the visible moon in the cycle. 

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Catholics in the Holy Land to celebrate Orthodox Easter
« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2012, 01:38:51 AM »
I was aware of the young crescent.  I was thinking however that the full moon would still fall on 14 Nisan.  The full moon will fall during Passover just not necessarily on the first day of it.  The first Sunday after the full moon would still fall after 14 Nisan would it not?
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Offline biro

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Re: Catholics in the Holy Land to celebrate Orthodox Easter
« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2012, 09:31:20 AM »
This is why I wish we had a fixed day like we do for Christmas.

Offline mountainman

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Re: Catholics in the Holy Land to celebrate Orthodox Easter
« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2012, 09:42:43 AM »
NPR was reporting yesterday that the catholic and orthodox church have easter on the same date this year.  Seems like their research didn't take into account the "paschal full moon".

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Catholics in the Holy Land to celebrate Orthodox Easter
« Reply #33 on: April 07, 2012, 11:32:07 AM »

Correct.  Is 1st Sunday after 14 Nisan based on the indiction cycles.   The whole nonsensical argument that Nicea I decreed that it was first Sunday after vernal equinox holds no water for those of us who know that the decree is not extant and have read the actual reports of the fathers that did have the council's ruling and told us about it.  St. Ambrose tells us that the acts of Nicea called the cycle the "nonus decennial."  It is also St. Ambrose that tells us that the Nicene decree states that "the 14th moon [of Aviv/Nisan] is not to be set as the day of Resurrection, but rather on the day of the passion of Christ, or on another preceding day, since the celebration of the Resurrection is celebrated on Sunday." 
(Epistle XXIII.1).   Also the Epistle of St. Cyril of Alexandria to St. Leo (as Rome and Alexandria frequently had rubs in the centuries following Nicea on the exact date):  “Let us carefully examine the decree of the Synod in Nicea with regard to its calculation of the fourteen moons of each month of the nineteen-year cycle; for at every synod [since that time], it has been decreed that no Church may do anything at odds with this resolution agreed upon at the Synod of Nicea regarding Pascha”



Except of course that Nisan is the first month of the Jewish Calendar.  Jewish months begin on the new moon and Nisan begins on the Spring new moon which makes the 14th of Nisan the first full moon after the Vernal Equinox of the Nothern Hemisphere. So if Pascha is to be the fist Sunday after 14 Nisan it will be the first Sunday after the first full moon atfter the Vernal Equinox of the Northern Hemisphere.  The Fathers of Nicea's first concern was to stop the celebration of Pascha on 14 Nisan, regardless of the day of the week and fix it to the Sunday after.  The second was to avoid relying on the Jewish calculation of 14 Nisan.  Their calculation became scewed and they would some time celebrate Passover before the Vernal Equinox and the Fathers deplored this.  It would seem clear then that the actual Veranl Equinox was the reference point for Pascha.  That both Churches, East and West, adopted "Paschal Full Moon" tables to predict the future dates for Pascha is a secondary issue and still leaves the difference of using 19 or 84 year cycles but does not detract from the main issue which was to ensure Pascha was celebrated on the Sunday after 14 Nisan and that 14 Nisan be after the Vernal Equinox.

Where is the "except" part?  We know that for centuries the Hebrews used tables rather than the actual full moon.  So tables were not a detraction from that. 

Also (not your point but that of another), the theory that the Julian calendar is the culprit is flat out wrong.  In fact, we were dealing with three calendars, one being a revised Julian of the time, but the most different was the Alexandrian calendar, which had completely different months than the roman calendar and different days (one month on one calendar started in the middle of another).  That is why there were so many dialogues or dare I say disputes during the 4th and 5th centuries between Alexandria and Rome on the proper date year after year. 

Father--I said that the Julian Calendar was the culprit. I was wrong in not qualifying my statement. The Julian does affect the calculations, does it not, in the sense that we cannot celebrate Pascha before April 3rd NS (March 21 plus 13 days)?

Further checking into this, I am convinced more than ever that the time has come to implement the recommendations of the North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation, Georgetown University, Washington, DC October 2010, that was kindly provided by Podkarpatska. The way the world is going, the least that Christians can do is to celebrate the Resurrection of our Lord on the same day.

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Re: Catholics in the Holy Land to celebrate Orthodox Easter
« Reply #34 on: April 20, 2012, 09:51:46 PM »
Is it a "non-negotiable" that Eastern Orthodox all over the world must all celebrate the same date for Easter?
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Re: Catholics in the Holy Land to celebrate Orthodox Easter
« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2012, 09:53:09 PM »
BTW going back to

For pastoral reasons the Catholic Church in the Holy Land plans in future to celebrate Easter according to the Orthodox calendar. The reason is consideration of the many inter-church families, said the Franciscan Custos Pierbattista Pizzaballa. In ecumenical dialogue, the date of Easter is one of the major hurdles...

does that last statement seem ridiculously optimistic?
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Re: Catholics in the Holy Land to celebrate Orthodox Easter
« Reply #36 on: April 20, 2012, 10:14:57 PM »
Is it a "non-negotiable" that Eastern Orthodox all over the world must all celebrate the same date for Easter?

Given that the Finnish Orthodox Church celebrates Easter on the Western date, I'm pretty sure that's not in the 'non-negotiable' bucket.
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Re: Catholics in the Holy Land to celebrate Orthodox Easter
« Reply #37 on: April 20, 2012, 10:15:36 PM »
BTW going back to

For pastoral reasons the Catholic Church in the Holy Land plans in future to celebrate Easter according to the Orthodox calendar. The reason is consideration of the many inter-church families, said the Franciscan Custos Pierbattista Pizzaballa. In ecumenical dialogue, the date of Easter is one of the major hurdles...

does that last statement seem ridiculously optimistic?

Yes.  Sorry to say, but it is worthy of ridicule.
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Re: Catholics in the Holy Land to celebrate Orthodox Easter
« Reply #38 on: April 20, 2012, 10:24:27 PM »
BTW going back to

For pastoral reasons the Catholic Church in the Holy Land plans in future to celebrate Easter according to the Orthodox calendar. The reason is consideration of the many inter-church families, said the Franciscan Custos Pierbattista Pizzaballa. In ecumenical dialogue, the date of Easter is one of the major hurdles...

does that last statement seem ridiculously optimistic?

That would mess up the status quo so bad.
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Re: Catholics in the Holy Land to celebrate Orthodox Easter
« Reply #39 on: April 21, 2012, 09:02:36 PM »

Correct.  Is 1st Sunday after 14 Nisan based on the indiction cycles.   The whole nonsensical argument that Nicea I decreed that it was first Sunday after vernal equinox holds no water for those of us who know that the decree is not extant and have read the actual reports of the fathers that did have the council's ruling and told us about it.  St. Ambrose tells us that the acts of Nicea called the cycle the "nonus decennial."  It is also St. Ambrose that tells us that the Nicene decree states that "the 14th moon [of Aviv/Nisan] is not to be set as the day of Resurrection, but rather on the day of the passion of Christ, or on another preceding day, since the celebration of the Resurrection is celebrated on Sunday." 
(Epistle XXIII.1).   Also the Epistle of St. Cyril of Alexandria to St. Leo (as Rome and Alexandria frequently had rubs in the centuries following Nicea on the exact date):  “Let us carefully examine the decree of the Synod in Nicea with regard to its calculation of the fourteen moons of each month of the nineteen-year cycle; for at every synod [since that time], it has been decreed that no Church may do anything at odds with this resolution agreed upon at the Synod of Nicea regarding Pascha”



Except of course that Nisan is the first month of the Jewish Calendar.  Jewish months begin on the new moon and Nisan begins on the Spring new moon which makes the 14th of Nisan the first full moon after the Vernal Equinox of the Nothern Hemisphere. So if Pascha is to be the fist Sunday after 14 Nisan it will be the first Sunday after the first full moon atfter the Vernal Equinox of the Northern Hemisphere.  The Fathers of Nicea's first concern was to stop the celebration of Pascha on 14 Nisan, regardless of the day of the week and fix it to the Sunday after.  The second was to avoid relying on the Jewish calculation of 14 Nisan.  Their calculation became scewed and they would some time celebrate Passover before the Vernal Equinox and the Fathers deplored this.  It would seem clear then that the actual Veranl Equinox was the reference point for Pascha.  That both Churches, East and West, adopted "Paschal Full Moon" tables to predict the future dates for Pascha is a secondary issue and still leaves the difference of using 19 or 84 year cycles but does not detract from the main issue which was to ensure Pascha was celebrated on the Sunday after 14 Nisan and that 14 Nisan be after the Vernal Equinox.

Where is the "except" part?  We know that for centuries the Hebrews used tables rather than the actual full moon.  So tables were not a detraction from that. 

Also (not your point but that of another), the theory that the Julian calendar is the culprit is flat out wrong.  In fact, we were dealing with three calendars, one being a revised Julian of the time, but the most different was the Alexandrian calendar, which had completely different months than the roman calendar and different days (one month on one calendar started in the middle of another).  That is why there were so many dialogues or dare I say disputes during the 4th and 5th centuries between Alexandria and Rome on the proper date year after year. 

Father--I said that the Julian Calendar was the culprit. I was wrong in not qualifying my statement. The Julian does affect the calculations, does it not, in the sense that we cannot celebrate Pascha before April 3rd NS (March 21 plus 13 days)?

Further checking into this, I am convinced more than ever that the time has come to implement the recommendations of the North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation, Georgetown University, Washington, DC October 2010, that was kindly provided by Podkarpatska. The way the world is going, the least that Christians can do is to celebrate the Resurrection of our Lord on the same day.

Sorry for not responding sooner.  This fell off my radar of new posts.  But remember, that it was Nisan as collated with the Alexandrian calendar on the one hand and revised Julian (what we have today is a revised revised Julian) calendar on the other that caused the sometimes different "announcements" of Pascha long after Nicea I.  It was not until St. Maximus came up with the indiction that the disputes "went away."  I do think that something needs to be done (for Finland, as well as for a unified calendar among Orthodox).  Georgetown is a temporary solution.  If they indeed call a great council, there will be a more final solution. 

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Re: Catholics in the Holy Land to celebrate Orthodox Easter
« Reply #40 on: April 21, 2012, 09:51:07 PM »
Back to the OP, this "concelebration" will NOT affect the Paschal celebrations that occur at the Church of the Resurrection as those services, the times they are performed and by whom have agreements on such things reaching back almost 900 years during Ottoman reign.
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Re: Catholics in the Holy Land to celebrate Orthodox Easter
« Reply #41 on: April 21, 2012, 10:12:43 PM »
Back to the OP, this "concelebration" will NOT affect the Paschal celebrations that occur at the Church of the Resurrection as those services, the times they are performed and by whom have agreements on such things reaching back almost 900 years during Ottoman reign.

 :o
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