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Offline Peter J

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An old post about Mary and the Pope
« on: March 30, 2012, 12:13:51 PM »
I don't know if this will generate much conversation or not, but just in case it does, it seems better to start a new thread then to put it on
this thread.

Quote from: Leeann
Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.zenit.org/article-23987?l=english

Excerpt from this article:

The Pope's leading of the Supplication of the Blessed Virgin of the Rosary, a prayer written by Blessed Bartolo Longo (1841-1926) was one of the high points of this 12th pastoral trip in Italy.

"We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart," the text of the prayer reads.

With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: "If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn."

>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Question:

In view of the Pope saying - "we will not know to whom to turn"... my question is, if the Apostles were standing next to the Pope, to whom do you think they would be advising him to "turn" too ....to Mary....or Jesus?

Later on the same thread was this post:

Quote from: guanophore
Quote
Have you ever been taught about God's presence within you? This is not an attack on you so please don't take it that way. It is confusing to me to hear people say they go through Mary to Jesus when Jesus dwells in us. I'm sure the Pope knows Christ lives in him so why would he say he wouldn't know who to turn to if Mary didn't listen to him? This is where tradition clashes with scripture.
There is no "clash" ron. This is a private prayer, a devotion to Mary, whom the Pope has adopted as his spiritual mother. It is not part of the Sacred Tradition, and is not binding upon believers. If you don't want to pray the prayer, don't. No problem. If the Pope wants to pray it, why criticize his prayer life? He is not teaching ex-
cathedra!

http://forum.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=297751

I find the last part particularly interesting: the idea of not criticizing the Pope's action because it isn't ex cathedra.

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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: An old post about Mary and the Pope
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2012, 12:19:44 PM »
I'm not sure about the ex cathedra part, but the praying and Mary part makes more sense to me now. I basically take it to mean something like "Mary will always be there to pray for us, so if even she won't pray, who then could we go to, because who is more willing and ready to pray for us? Thus to lose her would be to lose all, for she would be the last who would respond, being the most ready and forgiving and longsuffering with us..."   or some such thing.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: An old post about Mary and the Pope
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2012, 12:33:10 PM »
I'm not sure about the ex cathedra part, but the praying and Mary part makes more sense to me now. I basically take it to mean something like "Mary will always be there to pray for us, so if even she won't pray, who then could we go to, because who is more willing and ready to pray for us? Thus to lose her would be to lose all, for she would be the last who would respond, being the most ready and forgiving and longsuffering with us..."   or some such thing.

Yeah, it seems like there are Orthodox prayers that are similar -- although I don't have any on the top of my head.
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: An old post about Mary and the Pope
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2012, 03:19:43 PM »
A prayer that comes to mind from the Jordanville Prayer Book...

"I put all my hope in thee, O Mother of God. Guard me under thy protection. O Virgin Mother of God, despise not me, a sinner, needing thy help and protection, and have mercy on me, for my soul hopes in thee. "

Now, do we really put all our hope in Mary? Surely not, but of course this is meant to be a heart-felt, prayerful cry to someone we trust, and not a precise theological/dogmatic statement.

"My doubt in Christ is not like that of a child; it was forged in a furnace of faith." - Dostoevsky

Offline Peter J

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Re: An old post about Mary and the Pope
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2012, 03:36:32 PM »
Bingo.
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Offline Papist

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Re: An old post about Mary and the Pope
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2012, 04:02:46 PM »
In the spirit of the prayers on this thread, I'd like to share this prayer to the Virgin Mary:

Remember, Oh most gracious Virgin Mary,
that never was it known, that anyone who fled to thy protection, implored thy help or sought thy intersession, was left unaided.

Inspired by this confidence, I fly to thee, Oh virgins of virgins, my mother, to thee I come, before thee I stand, sinful and sorrowful.
Oh, mother of the word incarnate, despise not our petitions, but in thy mercy hear and answer me.

Amen.

One of my favorites.
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Offline J Michael

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Re: An old post about Mary and the Pope
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2012, 04:27:41 PM »
In the spirit of the prayers on this thread, I'd like to share this prayer to the Virgin Mary:

Remember, Oh most gracious Virgin Mary,
that never was it known, that anyone who fled to thy protection, implored thy help or sought thy intersession, was left unaided.

Inspired by this confidence, I fly to thee, Oh virgins of virgins, my mother, to thee I come, before thee I stand, sinful and sorrowful.
Oh, mother of the word incarnate, despise not our petitions, but in thy mercy hear and answer me.

Amen.

One of my favorites.

Beautiful, simple, concise.  One of my favorites, too.
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

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Offline Benjamin the Red

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Re: An old post about Mary and the Pope
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2012, 05:19:31 PM »
Christians have always subscribed great love and honor to the Theotokos. One of the oldest hymns to the Blessed Virgin says that she is the only pure and blessed one:

        Beneath thy compassion,
        we take refuge, O Virgin Theotokos:
        disdain not our prayers in our distress,
        but deliver us from harm,
        O only pure and blessed one.


"Beneath Thy Compassion" is the oldest extant hymn to the Virgin, the earliest copy we have comes from A.D. 250. The oldest extant portion of the NT Scriptures, St. John's Fragment (i.e., the Ryland's Papyrus, P52) is dated at only 50-100 years earlier.
"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: An old post about Mary and the Pope
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2012, 05:28:41 PM »
Christians have always subscribed great love and honor to the Theotokos. One of the oldest hymns to the Blessed Virgin says that she is the only pure and blessed one:

        Beneath thy compassion,
        we take refuge, O Virgin Theotokos:
        disdain not our prayers in our distress,
        but deliver us from harm,
        O only pure and blessed one.


"Beneath Thy Compassion" is the oldest extant hymn to the Virgin, the earliest copy we have comes from A.D. 250. The oldest extant portion of the NT Scriptures, St. John's Fragment (i.e., the Ryland's Papyrus, P52) is dated at only 50-100 years earlier.

As a side note, is the term Theotokos used in the manuscript we have from c. 250, or is that included just because it's part of the standard/traditional formulation of the hymn?
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Offline Benjamin the Red

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Re: An old post about Mary and the Pope
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2012, 05:55:13 PM »
Christians have always subscribed great love and honor to the Theotokos. One of the oldest hymns to the Blessed Virgin says that she is the only pure and blessed one:

        Beneath thy compassion,
        we take refuge, O Virgin Theotokos:
        disdain not our prayers in our distress,
        but deliver us from harm,
        O only pure and blessed one.


"Beneath Thy Compassion" is the oldest extant hymn to the Virgin, the earliest copy we have comes from A.D. 250. The oldest extant portion of the NT Scriptures, St. John's Fragment (i.e., the Ryland's Papyrus, P52) is dated at only 50-100 years earlier.

As a side note, is the term Theotokos used in the manuscript we have from c. 250, or is that included just because it's part of the standard/traditional formulation of the hymn?

It's there. The Greek is:

    Ὑπὸ τὴν σὴν εὐσπλαγχνίαν,
    καταφεύγομεν, Θεοτόκε.
    Τὰς ἡμῶν ἱκεσίας,
    μὴ παρίδῃς ἐν περιστάσει,
    ἀλλ᾽ ἐκ κινδύνων λύτρωσαι ἡμᾶς,
    μόνη Ἁγνή, μόνη εὐλογημένη.


As a side note, the Latin Church also knows this hymn, as "Sub Tuum Praesidium." The Latin translation, probably from the above Greek, dates to the 11th century:

    Sub tuum praesidium
    confugimus,
    Sancta Dei Genetrix.
    Nostras deprecationes ne despicias
    in necessitatibus nostris,
    sed a periculis cunctis
    libera nos semper,
    Virgo gloriosa et benedicta
"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy

Offline Peter J

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Re: An old post about Mary and the Pope
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2012, 06:10:22 PM »
As a side note, the Latin Church also knows this hymn, as "Sub Tuum Praesidium."

Yeah, that's the name I'm familiar with (or "Under Your Protection")..
« Last Edit: March 30, 2012, 06:11:28 PM by Peter J »
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Offline Peter J

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Re: An old post about Mary and the Pope
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2012, 07:33:25 AM »
I'm not sure about the ex cathedra part, but the praying and Mary part makes more sense to me now.

Yeah, I don't see a lot of problem with that part of it. (BTW, I note that Leeann, the one who objected, has "Religion: Believer" in her profile. So presumably she's neither Catholic nor Orthodox -- and probably not Anglican or Lutheran either.)

But I do find

Quote from: guanophore
If the Pope wants to pray it, why criticize his prayer life? He is not teaching ex-cathedra!

rather strange (and perhaps you do as well).
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Offline akimori makoto

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Re: An old post about Mary and the Pope
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2012, 06:29:31 PM »
A prayer that comes to mind from the Jordanville Prayer Book...

"I put all my hope in thee, O Mother of God. Guard me under thy protection. O Virgin Mother of God, despise not me, a sinner, needing thy help and protection, and have mercy on me, for my soul hopes in thee. "

Now, do we really put all our hope in Mary? Surely not, but of course this is meant to be a heart-felt, prayerful cry to someone we trust, and not a precise theological/dogmatic statement.

I thought our prayers are meant to be precisely that: theological/dogmatic statements.

I am not comfortable with prayers like this one.
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: An old post about Mary and the Pope
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2012, 07:00:54 PM »
I thought our prayers are meant to be precisely that: theological/dogmatic statements.

I am not comfortable with prayers like this one.

If your username is LBK then yes. Otherwise no. Also, being uncomfortable is part of being Orthodox. If you can read some of the stuff in the Bible (including the NT) and not be uncomfortable, then you're doing it wrong :)
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Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: An old post about Mary and the Pope
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2012, 07:14:56 PM »
Christians have always subscribed great love and honor to the Theotokos. One of the oldest hymns to the Blessed Virgin says that she is the only pure and blessed one:

        Beneath thy compassion,
        we take refuge, O Virgin Theotokos:
        disdain not our prayers in our distress,
        but deliver us from harm,
        O only pure and blessed one.


"Beneath Thy Compassion" is the oldest extant hymn to the Virgin, the earliest copy we have comes from A.D. 250. The oldest extant portion of the NT Scriptures, St. John's Fragment (i.e., the Ryland's Papyrus, P52) is dated at only 50-100 years earlier.


The earliest text of this hymn was found in a Coptic Orthodox Christmas liturgy of the third century. It is written in Greek and dates to approximately 250.[1] It is used in the Coptic liturgy to this day, as well as in the Byzantine, Ambrosian, and Roman liturgies. It is especially sung by young Christian men and women who are being educated by the Marist Brothers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub_tuum_praesidium

Offline LBK

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Re: An old post about Mary and the Pope
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2012, 08:25:56 PM »
I thought our prayers are meant to be precisely that: theological/dogmatic statements.

I am not comfortable with prayers like this one.

If your username is LBK then yes. Otherwise no. Also, being uncomfortable is part of being Orthodox. If you can read some of the stuff in the Bible (including the NT) and not be uncomfortable, then you're doing it wrong :)

Ahem. I feel no discomfort at all over that prayer which akimori has a problem with. :police:
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Offline William

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Re: An old post about Mary and the Pope
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2012, 09:07:32 PM »
A prayer that comes to mind from the Jordanville Prayer Book...

"I put all my hope in thee, O Mother of God. Guard me under thy protection. O Virgin Mother of God, despise not me, a sinner, needing thy help and protection, and have mercy on me, for my soul hopes in thee. "

Now, do we really put all our hope in Mary? Surely not, but of course this is meant to be a heart-felt, prayerful cry to someone we trust, and not a precise theological/dogmatic statement.

I thought our prayers are meant to be precisely that: theological/dogmatic statements.

This sounds kind of asinine coming from an inquirer who has minimal exposure to Orthodox liturgics to a cradle, but everything in my experience begs to differ. Hyperbole seems pretty common. Maybe LBK can back me up?
« Last Edit: April 01, 2012, 09:08:50 PM by William »
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Offline akimori makoto

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Re: An old post about Mary and the Pope
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2012, 09:42:10 PM »
A prayer that comes to mind from the Jordanville Prayer Book...

"I put all my hope in thee, O Mother of God. Guard me under thy protection. O Virgin Mother of God, despise not me, a sinner, needing thy help and protection, and have mercy on me, for my soul hopes in thee. "

Now, do we really put all our hope in Mary? Surely not, but of course this is meant to be a heart-felt, prayerful cry to someone we trust, and not a precise theological/dogmatic statement.

I thought our prayers are meant to be precisely that: theological/dogmatic statements.

This sounds kind of asinine coming from an inquirer who has minimal exposure to Orthodox liturgics to a cradle, but everything in my experience begs to differ. Hyperbole seems pretty common. Maybe LBK can back me up?

By all means, don't take my word for it. I will speak with a little bit more certainty when I'm confident I know what I'm talking about -- this is not one of those instances!

Cue LBK ...
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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: An old post about Mary and the Pope
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2012, 10:19:28 PM »
I thought our prayers are meant to be precisely that: theological/dogmatic statements.

I am not comfortable with prayers like this one.

"Τὴν πᾶσαν έλπίδα μου, είς σὲ άνατίθημι, Μῆτερ τοῦ Θεοῦ. φύλαξόν με ὐπο τὴν σκέπην σου" is one we say at the end of every Midnight Office and Compline (the 3rd century hymn cited above is also sung at the end of Compline). While our hymns certainly express theological and dogmatic truths, they still make use of various poetic tools, like hyperbole and metaphors. The Cross of Christ, the Garden of Paradise, Hades, etc. are often addressed in hymns using the second person singular - we don't sing about them, but to them. However, that this is not to be taken at face value does not negate the authoritative theological content of such hymns.

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: An old post about Mary and the Pope
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2012, 10:24:10 PM »
I thought our prayers are meant to be precisely that: theological/dogmatic statements.

I am not comfortable with prayers like this one.

"Τὴν πᾶσαν έλπίδα μου, είς σὲ άνατίθημι, Μῆτερ τοῦ Θεοῦ. φύλαξόν με ὐπο τὴν σκέπην σου" is one we say at the end of every Midnight Office and Compline (the 3rd century hymn cited above is also sung at the end of Compline). While our hymns certainly express theological and dogmatic truths, they still make use of various poetic tools, like hyperbole and metaphors. The Cross of Christ, the Garden of Paradise, Hades, etc. are often addressed in hymns using the second person singular - we don't sing about them, but to them. However, that this is not to be taken at face value does not negate the authoritative theological content of such hymns.

can someone give me an english translation for this?

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: An old post about Mary and the Pope
« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2012, 10:26:35 PM »
A prayer that comes to mind from the Jordanville Prayer Book...

"I put all my hope in thee, O Mother of God. Guard me under thy protection. O Virgin Mother of God, despise not me, a sinner, needing thy help and protection, and have mercy on me, for my soul hopes in thee. "

Now, do we really put all our hope in Mary? Surely not, but of course this is meant to be a heart-felt, prayerful cry to someone we trust, and not a precise theological/dogmatic statement.

I thought our prayers are meant to be precisely that: theological/dogmatic statements.

I am not comfortable with prayers like this one.

You will find very similar things in the akathist to the Theotokos...we really like her...  :angel:

Offline Orthodox11

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Re: An old post about Mary and the Pope
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2012, 06:32:35 AM »
can someone give me an english translation for this?

Unto thee do I commit mine every hope, O Mother of God; guard me under thy shelter.

Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: An old post about Mary and the Pope
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2012, 02:01:14 PM »
I thought our prayers are meant to be precisely that: theological/dogmatic statements.

I am not comfortable with prayers like this one.

If your username is LBK then yes. Otherwise no.

What about lex orandi, lex credendi, then?
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Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: An old post about Mary and the Pope
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2012, 02:10:21 PM »
can someone give me an english translation for this?

Unto thee do I commit mine every hope, O Mother of God; guard me under thy shelter.

awesome, i thought it meant somehting like that :)

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: An old post about Mary and the Pope
« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2012, 02:25:41 PM »
I thought our prayers are meant to be precisely that: theological/dogmatic statements.

I am not comfortable with prayers like this one.

If your username is LBK then yes. Otherwise no. Also, being uncomfortable is part of being Orthodox. If you can read some of the stuff in the Bible (including the NT) and not be uncomfortable, then you're doing it wrong :)

Ahem. I feel no discomfort at all over that prayer which akimori has a problem with. :police:

I meant, for you, the part about a connection between dogma/theology and liturgy  :angel:

I thought our prayers are meant to be precisely that: theological/dogmatic statements.

I am not comfortable with prayers like this one.

If your username is LBK then yes. Otherwise no.

What about lex orandi, lex credendi, then?

It's a valid principle at times, but is not universally applicable. Another saying that can be considered both valid and yet only sometimes applicable would be: "the saints are applied dogmatics". It's fine as a general idea, but you can't be overly strict with it because there are lots of exceptions.
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Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: An old post about Mary and the Pope
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2012, 02:29:06 PM »
lex orandi, lex credendi yes
 
(except for prayers to Theotokos)  ::)

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: An old post about Mary and the Pope
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2012, 02:31:57 PM »
The way I see it, the will of the Theotokos is aligned to the will of God by deification. God's will is hers, they are not misaligned. So to hope in her is to hope in God's salvation, because she brings us towards the Son. We have one hope, and that is salvation.

Indeed in the Akathist, we refer to her as "the salvation of our soul". I think if understood in the above context, this start to makes sense.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2012, 02:34:26 PM by Ortho_cat »

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: An old post about Mary and the Pope
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2012, 02:33:56 PM »
lex orandi, lex credendi yes
 
(except for prayers to Theotokos)  ::)


Who you talking to?
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Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: An old post about Mary and the Pope
« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2012, 02:35:44 PM »
lex orandi, lex credendi yes
 
(except for prayers to Theotokos)  ::)


Who you talking to?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw9oX-kZ_9k (Whatcha talkin bout Willis ?)

I don't think that our prayers to her violate this rule, imho :)
« Last Edit: April 02, 2012, 02:36:10 PM by Ortho_cat »

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: An old post about Mary and the Pope
« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2012, 02:51:18 PM »
lex orandi, lex credendi yes
 
(except for prayers to Theotokos)  ::)


Who you talking to?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw9oX-kZ_9k (Whatcha talkin bout Willis ?)

I don't think that our prayers to her violate this rule, imho :)

Oh, problems with regard to Mary and hope and salvaiton and such? Not at all, the Orthodox don't go nearly as far as they could. Catholics are much better at that type of Marian prayer stuff.  However, other stuff in the liturgical tradition, like the Theotokos living in the Temple and being fed poptarts by angels? Not so much...  ;)
« Last Edit: April 02, 2012, 02:51:51 PM by Asteriktos »
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Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: An old post about Mary and the Pope
« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2012, 02:54:54 PM »
lex orandi, lex credendi yes
 
(except for prayers to Theotokos)  ::)


Who you talking to?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw9oX-kZ_9k (Whatcha talkin bout Willis ?)

I don't think that our prayers to her violate this rule, imho :)

Oh, problems with regard to Mary and hope and salvaiton and such? Not at all, the Orthodox don't go nearly as far as they could. Catholics are much better at that type of Marian prayer stuff.  However, other stuff in the liturgical tradition, like the Theotokos living in the Temple and being fed poptarts by angels? Not so much...  ;)

nyan cat disagrees!


Offline Orthodox11

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Re: An old post about Mary and the Pope
« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2012, 03:18:31 PM »
What about lex orandi, lex credendi, then?

The question is not whether we really believe what we pray, the question is whether we should understand all hymns and prayers absolutely literally, without taking into account the wider theological context or the various literary devices that such poetry employs.

Offline LBK

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Re: An old post about Mary and the Pope
« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2012, 05:37:43 PM »
Quote
However, other stuff in the liturgical tradition, like the Theotokos living in the Temple and being fed poptarts by angels?

Someone has been listening to too much Fr Thomas Hopko and Jeannie Constantinou.  ::)
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: An old post about Mary and the Pope
« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2012, 05:43:07 PM »
Quote
However, other stuff in the liturgical tradition, like the Theotokos living in the Temple and being fed poptarts by angels?

Someone has been listening to too much Fr Thomas Hopko and Jeannie Constantinou.  ::)

Nah, I first started to form this opinion over a decade ago when I was reading the book on the Theotokos put out by Gregory of Colorado, and that was years before I'd heard of AFR. Also, I've never really listened to either of those two people since then anyway. orthonorm thinks Fr. Thomas is like the bees knees, so I may have tried listening for a couple minutes here and there, but really, I find that I can't sit and listen to people talk about theology on podcasts for more than a few minutes at a time. If I can't force my way into a conversation and pontificate I lose all interest  :D ;D :'(
"My doubt in Christ is not like that of a child; it was forged in a furnace of faith." - Dostoevsky

Offline Peter J

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Re: An old post about Mary and the Pope
« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2012, 09:46:26 AM »
Catholics are much better at that type of Marian prayer stuff.

:)
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)