Author Topic: Which church is more open to reuniting??  (Read 18544 times)

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Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #630 on: April 19, 2012, 09:56:49 AM »
Didn't matter that the east had treated the west badly prior to those centuries...

Proofs?

None that you would recognize...
Then why did you post your pot shot? You know the game. If you can't prove it, don't post it.

poor poor little eastern Orthodoxy.
That was just plain rude.

I posted it because in fact there is a long history of promise and betrayal between us on both sides.  That is why I posted it.  If it were not common knowledge and was not expressed commonly in these sorts of fora, then I would not have said it.  I cannot prove it in five lines or less.   I am pretty sure you know that as well.

Also I would love to have a dime for each time I've heard an Orthodox person tell me that Orthodoxy is so small and weakened that we Roman Catholics would just crush her if we could.  I suppose if anything, I was trading rude presumptions.

Orthodoxy is small.  No one will ever convince me that she is weak.

Blessings of this Bright Week to all!!

Mary

Offline biro

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #631 on: April 19, 2012, 10:31:03 AM »
Quote from: elijahmaria

Blessings of this Bright Week to all!!

Mary

Thanks. Shallow moment here: boy, do I enjoy burgers at the moment. It was hard to wait six weeks.  :D  ;)

Offline Peter J

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #632 on: April 19, 2012, 10:32:19 AM »
Didn't matter that the east had treated the west badly prior to those centuries...

Proofs?

None that you would recognize...
Then why did you post your pot shot? You know the game. If you can't prove it, don't post it.

poor poor little eastern Orthodoxy.
That was just plain rude.

Based on my past experience with Orthodox, I get the impression that rudeness depends largely on who is speaking.

For example, would that comment be "rude" if Fr. Taft said it? I notice that he's speaking at the OL conference again this year, yet I can think of a couple things he has said that would be considered "rude" if I said them.
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Offline primuspilus

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #633 on: April 19, 2012, 10:41:26 AM »
Quote
None that you would recognize...poor poor little eastern Orthodoxy.
Wow....just wow.....

I dont know what you meant by that maria, but I feel very safe in saying that if you put the injustices of the East against the West side-by-side, which side would have FAR more negative marks on it.

I would also add that saying something like the above does not absolve you to prove your point.

PP



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Offline Papist

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #634 on: April 19, 2012, 11:01:59 AM »
Would you then criticise the Pope who has given Holy Communion to Protestants?
Yep.
The Supreme Pontiff of the Roman Catholic Church apparently believes that it is acceptable to give Holy Communion to Protestants under certain limited conditions.  If a Roman Catholic disagrees with the Pope in such a matter, would that make him a dissenting Roman Catholic?
We are not expected to agree with everything the Pope does or thinks. Only what he formally proposes for belief for the Universal Church.
He is the leader of the Roman Catholic Church and as such his liturgical actions set an example for the whole Church. He has given Communion in the hand and has given Communion to Protestants under certain limited conditions.
To come to your conlusion, one would have to be a Papal absolutist. It is ridiculous to suggest that every action of the Pope is "official teaching".
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Offline primuspilus

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #635 on: April 19, 2012, 11:06:40 AM »
Would you then criticise the Pope who has given Holy Communion to Protestants?
Yep.
The Supreme Pontiff of the Roman Catholic Church apparently believes that it is acceptable to give Holy Communion to Protestants under certain limited conditions.  If a Roman Catholic disagrees with the Pope in such a matter, would that make him a dissenting Roman Catholic?
We are not expected to agree with everything the Pope does or thinks. Only what he formally proposes for belief for the Universal Church.
He is the leader of the Roman Catholic Church and as such his liturgical actions set an example for the whole Church. He has given Communion in the hand and has given Communion to Protestants under certain limited conditions.
To come to your conlusion, one would have to be a Papal absolutist. It is ridiculous to suggest that every action of the Pope is "official teaching".
That I have to agree with. However, as past arguments have shown, nobody really knows difinitively what is "official" and "ex cathedra" and all that jazz.

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #636 on: April 19, 2012, 11:11:31 AM »
Didn't matter that the east had treated the west badly prior to those centuries...

Proofs?

None that you would recognize...
Then why did you post your pot shot? You know the game. If you can't prove it, don't post it.

poor poor little eastern Orthodoxy.
That was just plain rude.

I posted it because in fact there is a long history of promise and betrayal between us on both sides.  That is why I posted it.  If it were not common knowledge and was not expressed commonly in these sorts of fora, then I would not have said it.  I cannot prove it in five lines or less.   I am pretty sure you know that as well.
You post far more than five lines.  If you had tried posting something of substance, you would have had more than enough space to post your evidence, if you had any.

Also I would love to have a dime for each time I've heard an Orthodox person tell me that Orthodoxy is so small and weakened that we Roman Catholics would just crush her if we could.  I suppose if anything, I was trading rude presumptions.
What about the fact of your ecclesiastical community trying to do just that?  The absolute glee of your supreme Pontiff Pius XI, his henchman bishop d'Herbigny with the blessing of Eugenio Pacelli (i.e. your supreme pontiff's replacement as #XII) and the pretender to the throne of Kiev Met. Sheptytsky over the opportunity presented by the suppression of the Russian Orthodox Church by the Soviets and the Polish Second Republic....proof enough you would crush us if you could.

Orthodoxy is small.  No one will ever convince me that she is weak.
"Fear not little flock...."
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #637 on: April 19, 2012, 11:12:29 AM »
Would you then criticise the Pope who has given Holy Communion to Protestants?
Yep.
The Supreme Pontiff of the Roman Catholic Church apparently believes that it is acceptable to give Holy Communion to Protestants under certain limited conditions.  If a Roman Catholic disagrees with the Pope in such a matter, would that make him a dissenting Roman Catholic?
We are not expected to agree with everything the Pope does or thinks. Only what he formally proposes for belief for the Universal Church.
He is the leader of the Roman Catholic Church and as such his liturgical actions set an example for the whole Church. He has given Communion in the hand and has given Communion to Protestants under certain limited conditions.
To come to your conlusion, one would have to be a Papal absolutist. It is ridiculous to suggest that every action of the Pope is "official teaching".
Oh?  If every action of your supreme pontiff were "official teaching," what would you be doing differently?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #638 on: April 19, 2012, 11:13:26 AM »
Quote
None that you would recognize...poor poor little eastern Orthodoxy.
Wow....just wow.....

I dont know what you meant by that maria, but I feel very safe in saying that if you put the injustices of the East against the West side-by-side, which side would have FAR more negative marks on it.

I would also add that saying something like the above does not absolve you to prove your point.

PP




it was all shot with no point.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #639 on: April 19, 2012, 11:14:40 AM »
Didn't matter that the east had treated the west badly prior to those centuries...

Proofs?

None that you would recognize...
Then why did you post your pot shot? You know the game. If you can't prove it, don't post it.

poor poor little eastern Orthodoxy.
That was just plain rude.

Based on my past experience with Orthodox, I get the impression that rudeness depends largely on who is speaking.

For example, would that comment be "rude" if Fr. Taft said it? I notice that he's speaking at the OL conference again this year, yet I can think of a couple things he has said that would be considered "rude" if I said them.
You know that Fr. Taft is not Orthodox, but in communion with Mariaelijah, no?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Peter J

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #640 on: April 19, 2012, 11:21:18 AM »
Didn't matter that the east had treated the west badly prior to those centuries...

Proofs?

None that you would recognize...
Then why did you post your pot shot? You know the game. If you can't prove it, don't post it.

poor poor little eastern Orthodoxy.
That was just plain rude.

Based on my past experience with Orthodox, I get the impression that rudeness depends largely on who is speaking.

For example, would that comment be "rude" if Fr. Taft said it? I notice that he's speaking at the OL conference again this year, yet I can think of a couple things he has said that would be considered "rude" if I said them.
You know that Fr. Taft is not Orthodox, but in communion with Mariaelijah, no?
Yes. That's beside the point. He was invited to speak at OL.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #641 on: April 19, 2012, 11:37:10 AM »
Didn't matter that the east had treated the west badly prior to those centuries...

Proofs?

None that you would recognize...
Then why did you post your pot shot? You know the game. If you can't prove it, don't post it.

poor poor little eastern Orthodoxy.
That was just plain rude.

Based on my past experience with Orthodox, I get the impression that rudeness depends largely on who is speaking.

For example, would that comment be "rude" if Fr. Taft said it? I notice that he's speaking at the OL conference again this year, yet I can think of a couple things he has said that would be considered "rude" if I said them.
You know that Fr. Taft is not Orthodox, but in communion with Mariaelijah, no?
Yes. That's beside the point. He was invited to speak at OL.
So you were saying all the Vatican's defeners in Orthodox fora are rude? ???
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline J Michael

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #642 on: April 19, 2012, 12:09:51 PM »
Didn't matter that the east had treated the west badly prior to those centuries...

Proofs?

None that you would recognize...
Then why did you post your pot shot? You know the game. If you can't prove it, don't post it.

poor poor little eastern Orthodoxy.
That was just plain rude.

Based on my past experience with Orthodox, I get the impression that rudeness depends largely on who is speaking.

For example, would that comment be "rude" if Fr. Taft said it? I notice that he's speaking at the OL conference again this year, yet I can think of a couple things he has said that would be considered "rude" if I said them.
You know that Fr. Taft is not Orthodox, but in communion with Mariaelijah, no?
Yes. That's beside the point. He was invited to speak at OL.

So you were saying all the Vatican's defeners in Orthodox fora are rude? ???


I don't think he said that.  In fact, I'm pretty darn sure he didn't say that.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #643 on: April 19, 2012, 12:13:12 PM »
Didn't matter that the east had treated the west badly prior to those centuries...

Proofs?

None that you would recognize...
Then why did you post your pot shot? You know the game. If you can't prove it, don't post it.

poor poor little eastern Orthodoxy.
That was just plain rude.

Based on my past experience with Orthodox, I get the impression that rudeness depends largely on who is speaking.

For example, would that comment be "rude" if Fr. Taft said it? I notice that he's speaking at the OL conference again this year, yet I can think of a couple things he has said that would be considered "rude" if I said them.
You know that Fr. Taft is not Orthodox, but in communion with Mariaelijah, no?
Yes. That's beside the point. He was invited to speak at OL.

So you were saying all the Vatican's defeners in Orthodox fora are rude? ???


I don't think he said that.  In fact, I'm pretty darn sure he didn't say that.

No I didn't. I was saying, Would the "rude" comment be considered rude if it had come from Fr. Taft?
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Offline JoeS2

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #644 on: April 19, 2012, 12:20:23 PM »
Our priest will announce prior to Communion that "...only Orthodox who have fasted, and recently gone to confession and in good standing can receive."

Communion = Com and union.  "Together In Union".  Inviting those schismatics and heretics to this Communion is an abomination and a disrespect for the real presence: The Body and Blood of Christ.   To receive unworthily, be you Orthodox or else brings condemnation upon one's self.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2012, 12:22:00 PM by JoeS2 »

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #645 on: April 19, 2012, 12:44:59 PM »
Scallywags abounded during the course of the 20th century in the churches of the west and the east. The Soviet period and the Fascist period created enough opportunities for the most brazen and craven attempts by many people from many sides - religious and anti-religious alike to do their mischief and attempt to manipulate the world around them.

I certainly have no love for Pius XI as he excommunicated my grandfathers. His arrogance caused the rift in the Greek Catholic Church in America. Pius XII no doubt used the excess of the Soviets in 1947 and 1948 to unleash his efforts in Slovakia and Ukraine and 'get back' at the Orthodox for providing a 'safe haven' to those who left Greek Catholicism in the states. Rome surely played upon the anti-Russian sentiments of the European Greek Catholics and the heavy handedness of the Orthodox and their Soviet allies merely added fuel to that fire.

The Orthodox churches had their own issues - both within Moscow (caught between trying to survive and those who would have toadied to Papa Joe Stalin for a crumb of favor during the war.) and in the resulting chaos in the New World.

Little good can come out of this ongoing, childish 'my side is better that your side'  - 'your people killed more people than we did' and so on and so on and so on. 

Our Risen Lord and Saviour cautions us all that only he who is without sin is to cast the first stone. Remember that "Not everyone who calls out to me, 'Lord! Lord!' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven."

Offline Wyatt

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #646 on: April 19, 2012, 01:19:12 PM »
I wonder what point it was when, according to strict Orthodox ecclesiology, the Catholics lost sacramental grace?
I don't think there is a unified answer

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #647 on: April 19, 2012, 01:21:19 PM »
I wonder what point it was when, according to strict Orthodox ecclesiology, the Catholics lost sacramental grace?
I don't think there is a unified answer
I'I've heard some Orthodox kind of skirt around that issue. I'd like to hear more on it.

PP
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Offline JoeS2

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #648 on: April 19, 2012, 03:10:45 PM »
I wonder what point it was when, according to strict Orthodox ecclesiology, the Catholics lost sacramental grace?
I don't think there is a unified answer

We Orthodox like to state that we know where God's grace is but we dont know where it isnt.

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #649 on: April 19, 2012, 03:23:47 PM »
I wonder what point it was when, according to strict Orthodox ecclesiology, the Catholics lost sacramental grace?
I don't think there is a unified answer

We Orthodox like to state that we know where God's grace is but we dont know where it isnt.

This is often taken too far as if it's a dogmatic or even patristic point, when really it doesn't predate the late 20th century.
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #650 on: April 19, 2012, 03:26:08 PM »
I wonder what point it was when, according to strict Orthodox ecclesiology, the Catholics lost sacramental grace?
I don't think there is a unified answer

We Orthodox like to state that we know where God's grace is but we dont know where it isnt.

This is often taken too far as if it's a dogmatic or even patristic point, when really it doesn't predate the late 20th century.

Your point? For that matter, very little Orthodox thought in English predates the 20th century - throw it out the door?

Offline J Michael

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #651 on: April 19, 2012, 03:39:14 PM »
I wonder what point it was when, according to strict Orthodox ecclesiology, the Catholics lost sacramental grace?
I don't think there is a unified answer

We Orthodox like to state that we know where God's grace is but we dont know where it isnt.

This is often taken too far as if it's a dogmatic or even patristic point, when really it doesn't predate the late 20th century.

Are you saying that that is not an accurate characterization of Orthodox thinking?
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #652 on: April 19, 2012, 04:20:42 PM »
I wonder what point it was when, according to strict Orthodox ecclesiology, the Catholics lost sacramental grace?
I don't think there is a unified answer

We Orthodox like to state that we know where God's grace is but we dont know where it isnt.

This is often taken too far as if it's a dogmatic or even patristic point, when really it doesn't predate the late 20th century.

Are you saying that that is not an accurate characterization of Orthodox thinking?

On line or here in our North American seminaries?  :)

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #653 on: April 19, 2012, 04:24:19 PM »
Quote
Are you saying that that is not an accurate characterization of Orthodox thinking?
I would say that it is a dangerous thing to start screaming on-high about who has sacramental grace or not. I would simply point out things that we disagree on. Afterall, we really dont know who has sacramental grace outside of the Church and who does not.

PP
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Offline J Michael

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #654 on: April 19, 2012, 04:30:49 PM »
I wonder what point it was when, according to strict Orthodox ecclesiology, the Catholics lost sacramental grace?
I don't think there is a unified answer

We Orthodox like to state that we know where God's grace is but we dont know where it isnt.

This is often taken too far as if it's a dogmatic or even patristic point, when really it doesn't predate the late 20th century.

Are you saying that that is not an accurate characterization of Orthodox thinking?

On line or here in our North American seminaries?  :)

Oh.  I forgot that we're in the twilight zone here  :laugh: :laugh:.

But seriously---anywhere there is serious Orthodox thinking by people whose opinions "count" and are respected by their peers internationally and at least some kind of plurality of Orthodox worshipers. 

"On-line" I don't think really counts as seriously representing something resembling a consensus of Orthodox thinking, does it?
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Offline J Michael

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #655 on: April 19, 2012, 04:32:47 PM »
Quote
Are you saying that that is not an accurate characterization of Orthodox thinking?
I would say that it is a dangerous thing to start screaming on-high about who has sacramental grace or not. I would simply point out things that we disagree on. Afterall, we really dont know who has sacramental grace outside of the Church and who does not.

PP

I don't hear anyone screaming.


Yet.   :D
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Offline primuspilus

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #656 on: April 19, 2012, 04:35:18 PM »
Quote
"On-line" I don't think really counts as seriously representing something resembling a consensus of Orthodox thinking, does it?
Goodness I hope not.

Quote
I don't hear anyone screaming.


Yet

Thank God these knuckleheads dont count.  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

PP
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Offline J Michael

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #657 on: April 19, 2012, 05:18:43 PM »
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"On-line" I don't think really counts as seriously representing something resembling a consensus of Orthodox thinking, does it?
Goodness I hope not.

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I don't hear anyone screaming.


Yet

Thank God these knuckleheads dont count.  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

PP

Not at the moment, anyway--too busy holding stupid placards their parents probably put in their hands.  ::) ::)
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Offline primuspilus

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #658 on: April 19, 2012, 05:20:07 PM »
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Not at the moment, anyway--too busy holding stupid placards their parents probably put in their hands
You aint lyin' :)

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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #659 on: April 19, 2012, 06:49:19 PM »
What then would you give as the exact date of the East West Schism?

In the strong sense of the word schism, I would have to say not until the Council of Florence.

I'd say more around 1204 when your kind invaded and sacked Constantinople; there are still Greeks I know to this day who have not gotten over that.

As an old Onion Dome article stated:

"I remember the Fourth Crusade like it was yesterday."
"That was 800 years ago."
"Maybe."
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #660 on: April 19, 2012, 06:50:45 PM »
What then would you give as the exact date of the East West Schism?

In the strong sense of the word schism, I would have to say not until the Council of Florence.

I'd say more around 1204 when your kind invaded and sacked Constantinople; there are still Greeks I know to this day who have not gotten over that.
"Your kind" LOL You guys.

Labeling is difficult when the pope often has more vociferous support amongst non-Roman Catholics than he does amongst those whom he is supposed to lead/rule over.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #661 on: April 19, 2012, 06:51:41 PM »
What then would you give as the exact date of the East West Schism?

In the strong sense of the word schism, I would have to say not until the Council of Florence.

I'd say more around 1204 when your kind invaded and sacked Constantinople; there are still Greeks I know to this day who have not gotten over that.
Does it matter that just previous to this event "your kind" massacred the Latins who lived in Constantinople? Just curious.

No. That was political, and due to the fact that "your kind" was fond of making trouble for "our kind" when the Emperor would not give those greedy Italians what they wanted.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #662 on: April 19, 2012, 06:56:21 PM »
What then would you give as the exact date of the East West Schism?

In the strong sense of the word schism, I would have to say not until the Council of Florence.

I'd say more around 1204 when your kind invaded and sacked Constantinople

Hmmm ... I'll be interested to see how many posters agree with you.

I would. After the Fourth Crusade, bad feelings for the Latin Church moved from what had been basically a matter for the intelligentsia (see all the anti-Latin polemics of the 9th-12th centuries), to the masses, who saw first hand what falsely-called Christian barbarians could do (which was a lot worse than they'd seen from their Orthodox barbarian neighbors). After Michael VIII retook Constantinople and began overtures to the pope of Rome, support for Rome became very much the province of part of the aristocracy and intelligentsia, but did not have popular support. To the other Orthodox patriarchates, prior to the Crusades, Rome wasn't really an issue. After 1100, when Rome interfered and created schism in Antioch, then it became an issue for them as well.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #663 on: April 19, 2012, 07:02:09 PM »
Does it matter that just previous to this event "your kind" massacred the Latins who lived in Constantinople? Just curious.

Does it matter that the Venetians destroyed the Genoese quarters in Constantinople first, had been at war with Constantinople and had supported the Serb uprisings who had been responsible for the siege of Ancona?

Hmmm ... I'll be interested to see how many posters agree with you.

I did express it in an albeit cynic sort of way, however, being serious, I think that 1204 was approximately the time when the schism was really set in stone.
At this point in history, I don't think it realy matter who killed who hundreds of years ago. I just think it's silly that EOs keep bringing it up when their predecessors are guilty of the exact same thing.

I find this attitude irritating given that: 1. it treats history as somehow irrelevant to either the present or the future--and to identity itself, and 2. it assumes, without evidence, that EOs committed the same kind of atrocities at the same frequency and scale as the Roman Catholics did against the EO. I don't wish to count bodies, but this argument simply does not work.

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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #664 on: April 19, 2012, 07:03:05 PM »
I did express it in an albeit cynic sort of way, however, being serious, I think that 1204 was approximately the time when the schism was really set in stone.

Alright, I can see what you mean about setting in stone. The thing is, it wasn't really a schism then, but a lack of communion.

Is this a peculiarly Roman Catholic way of defining schism? To the Orthodox, if there's no communion, there is schism.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #665 on: April 19, 2012, 07:08:00 PM »
I wonder what point it was when, according to strict Orthodox ecclesiology, the Catholics lost sacramental grace?

To define a date and time would not really fit into Orthodox understanding. The preaching of heresy, in that it is itself a departure from Orthodoxy and the Church, is enough--and this was recognized and condemned by many, but it took years for its extent to be revealed. Certainly, papal supremacy is a heresy against Orthodox ecclesiological teaching and holy tradition. But, despite hiccups, you do not have a severing of communion lasting for a long time (and a popular recognition by both sides that the other is not of the same faith)--both of which are critical, until the Papal Reformation, which began under Leo IX and reached its zenith under Gregory VII--from the mid to the end of the 11th century. There you have the coincidence of popular non-recognition and official opposition--it wasn't all unanimous, but it was there in significant scale.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #666 on: April 19, 2012, 07:09:08 PM »
I wonder what point it was when, according to strict Orthodox ecclesiology, the Catholics lost sacramental grace?

At the time of the Unia when the Catholic Church finally turned on the Orthodox Churches and called them and treated them as heretics and schismatics.  Didn't matter that the east had treated the west badly prior to those centuries...that was irrelevant, but when the west responded in kind well then... 8)

How had the whole east treated the whole west badly? Please, give actual examples if you can.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #667 on: April 19, 2012, 07:09:51 PM »
Didn't matter that the east had treated the west badly prior to those centuries...

Proofs?

None that you would recognize...poor poor little eastern Orthodoxy.


Hence, you have no argument.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #668 on: April 19, 2012, 07:12:54 PM »
Would you then criticise the Pope who has given Holy Communion to Protestants?
Yep.
The Supreme Pontiff of the Roman Catholic Church apparently believes that it is acceptable to give Holy Communion to Protestants under certain limited conditions.  If a Roman Catholic disagrees with the Pope in such a matter, would that make him a dissenting Roman Catholic?
We are not expected to agree with everything the Pope does or thinks. Only what he formally proposes for belief for the Universal Church.
He is the leader of the Roman Catholic Church and as such his liturgical actions set an example for the whole Church. He has given Communion in the hand and has given Communion to Protestants under certain limited conditions.

So, from your understanding of Catholicism, Paul was wrong to criticize Peter at the Council of Jerusalem?

That's a bad example. You're contrasting a time when the Church was still in infancy to a time when there are actually formalized rules.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #669 on: April 19, 2012, 07:14:25 PM »
What then would you give as the exact date of the East West Schism?

In the strong sense of the word schism, I would have to say not until the Council of Florence.

Even for a few decades thereafter the rift was not final across the remnants of the Eastern Empire and in parts of the Italian peninsula. Certainly by the end of the 15th century the schism was rigidly in place. The attempts at forced union followed later, beginning in the mid to late-16th century.

I beg to differ about Norman-controlled former Byzantine southern Italy--from the late 11th century on. Maybe some Orthodox held on in secret--but when the Normans took power, no Greek bishops were allowed to operate.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #670 on: April 19, 2012, 07:18:48 PM »
I wonder what point it was when, according to strict Orthodox ecclesiology, the Catholics lost sacramental grace?
I don't think there is a unified answer

We Orthodox like to state that we know where God's grace is but we dont know where it isnt.

This is often taken too far as if it's a dogmatic or even patristic point, when really it doesn't predate the late 20th century.

Your point? For that matter, very little Orthodox thought in English predates the 20th century - throw it out the door?

My point is, it does not conform with Orthodox tradition--that whole "change to remain the same thing." This makes a change, but in the end one doesn't recognize what was before.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #671 on: April 19, 2012, 07:19:30 PM »
I wonder what point it was when, according to strict Orthodox ecclesiology, the Catholics lost sacramental grace?
I don't think there is a unified answer

We Orthodox like to state that we know where God's grace is but we dont know where it isnt.

This is often taken too far as if it's a dogmatic or even patristic point, when really it doesn't predate the late 20th century.

Are you saying that that is not an accurate characterization of Orthodox thinking?

Well, are we to be agnostic on sacramental grace operating amongst Mormons? I think not.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #672 on: April 19, 2012, 07:21:01 PM »
I wonder what point it was when, according to strict Orthodox ecclesiology, the Catholics lost sacramental grace?
I don't think there is a unified answer

We Orthodox like to state that we know where God's grace is but we dont know where it isnt.

This is often taken too far as if it's a dogmatic or even patristic point, when really it doesn't predate the late 20th century.

Are you saying that that is not an accurate characterization of Orthodox thinking?

On line or here in our North American seminaries?  :)

Oh.  I forgot that we're in the twilight zone here  :laugh: :laugh:.

But seriously---anywhere there is serious Orthodox thinking by people whose opinions "count" and are respected by their peers internationally and at least some kind of plurality of Orthodox worshipers. 

"On-line" I don't think really counts as seriously representing something resembling a consensus of Orthodox thinking, does it?

There are lots of respected heretics with high degrees. They even made popular songs and won over much of the world. Surely, we should believe them over some ignorant peasant.
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Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #673 on: April 19, 2012, 07:27:57 PM »
Well!!...you guys and dolls seem to have this topic under control.  

Think I'll go take a nap...

XB!!

BB!!

love,

M.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2012, 07:29:32 PM by elijahmaria »

Offline Peter J

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #674 on: April 19, 2012, 07:34:07 PM »
I did express it in an albeit cynic sort of way, however, being serious, I think that 1204 was approximately the time when the schism was really set in stone.

Alright, I can see what you mean about setting in stone. The thing is, it wasn't really a schism then, but a lack of communion.

Is this a peculiarly Roman Catholic way of defining schism? To the Orthodox, if there's no communion, there is schism.

So, if I understand your use of the word, St. John Chrysostom was in a state of schism for part of his life, right?
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