Author Topic: Which church is more open to reuniting??  (Read 16862 times)

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #450 on: April 16, 2012, 06:28:50 PM »
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Ialmisry, I have to confess that oftentimes I read a post from you and then think to myself (even if I don't say it) "Yeah, I've heard that before." :roll-eyes-indifferently:

But not so with this one:

As long as you stay out of the Churches of the Orthodox diptychs of the Catholic Church, we should have nothing to do with your life.

Honestly, I had no idea that you feel that way about the Oriental Orthodox.
Yeah, if she goes in their Churches, then it becomes an issue for us.

An issue? Doesn't "we should have nothing to do with [their] life" imply exactly the opposite?
Doesn't apply once she has crossed over our side of the border, that no longer applies.  Good fences make good neighbors. Stay on your side, and you are free to do what you like with your life, as it doesn't involve us.
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Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #451 on: April 16, 2012, 06:29:50 PM »
Ialmisry, I have to confess that oftentimes I read a post from you and then think to myself (even if I don't say it) "Yeah, I've heard that before." :roll-eyes-indifferently:

But not so with this one:

As long as you stay out of the Churches of the Orthodox diptychs of the Catholic Church, we should have nothing to do with your life.

Honestly, I had no idea that you feel that way about the Oriental Orthodox.
Yeah, if she goes in their Churches, then it becomes an issue for us.

 :D

Offline stanley123

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #452 on: April 16, 2012, 06:37:26 PM »
Which of course indicates that the Orthodox are the most open to reuniting: they accept anyone who accepts the basis of unity founded by and on Christ, which was manifested throughout the last two millenia.
Of course it all depends on what it means to accept the basis of unity. From what I heard it would only involve a few small things such as rebaptism by triple immersion of each and every Roman, re-education and retraining of each and every Roman clergyman, including the Pope, and subsequent reordination of same by an Eastern Orthodox bishop, banning of all statues and replacing them with officially approved icons (no western style unapproved icons allowed), acceptance of the Julian calendar and Orthodox date of Easter, reformation of the Roman Mass along the Byzantine lines, rejection of papal prerogatives such as infallibility, universal jurisdiction, etc.  

Stan, Stan, Stan, there you go again.

I suspect you didn't hear that from any of the clergy, bishops and professors appointed by their respective Churches to represent the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches representing say, either the International Roman Catholic/Orthodox Theological Consultation or its North American counterpart did you?

Gosh if you did hear personally from any of them PLEASE, do us a big favor and let us know - NAMES, dates etc... since such is contrary to what they have been publishing over the past three decades or so and if they are telling you this directly, the rest of us need to contact the Bishops etc.. and let them in on this.

Anyone who makes this entire issue seem 'easy' or, on the other hand 'forever impossible' - is a fool as I see it. You can't take a fifteen hundred year old problem and wish it away - or give up on it because it has been that way for fifteen hundred years or so.


Yes, in a sense you are right, and I appreciate your realistic optimism here,  but isn't it true, that some Orthodox do not approve of the theological consultations and  dialog with the Romans. Haven't we read about the comparison with the Council of Florence where Orthodox bishops "sold out" the Orthodox Church which was only subsequently saved through the efforts of St. Mark and the faith of the Orthodox people?
Anyway, I don't see how there is going to be any union if the Orthodox do not agree on the difference between lesser and grave sins. Suppose for example that you make one Xerox copy of a personal document at work and do not pay for it. Then you have effectively stolen five cents from your boss (who is a real cheapskate anyway, even though he is a multi-billionaire). (BTW, everyone is doing it and you needed that copy right away and you are underpaid, considering the amount of work that you do and what others are being paid). Now would this one venial sin disbar you from receiving Holy Communion in the Orthodox Church? Suppose that later on, a week later,  you left one nickel in the general fund box, as you realised what you had stolen. And are you then required to go to confession first and confess that you made one Xerox copy (worth five cents) of a document at work before receiving Holy Communion?  Is this sin considered to be different in gravity from one where you rob a bank and kill ten innocent people, wound twenty others and beat your wife who threatens to call the police against you?  

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #453 on: April 16, 2012, 06:48:36 PM »
Which of course indicates that the Orthodox are the most open to reuniting: they accept anyone who accepts the basis of unity founded by and on Christ, which was manifested throughout the last two millenia.
Of course it all depends on what it means to accept the basis of unity. From what I heard it would only involve a few small things such as rebaptism by triple immersion of each and every Roman, re-education and retraining of each and every Roman clergyman, including the Pope, and subsequent reordination of same by an Eastern Orthodox bishop, banning of all statues and replacing them with officially approved icons (no western style unapproved icons allowed), acceptance of the Julian calendar and Orthodox date of Easter, reformation of the Roman Mass along the Byzantine lines, rejection of papal prerogatives such as infallibility, universal jurisdiction, etc.  

Stan, Stan, Stan, there you go again.

I suspect you didn't hear that from any of the clergy, bishops and professors appointed by their respective Churches to represent the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches representing say, either the International Roman Catholic/Orthodox Theological Consultation or its North American counterpart did you?

Gosh if you did hear personally from any of them PLEASE, do us a big favor and let us know - NAMES, dates etc... since such is contrary to what they have been publishing over the past three decades or so and if they are telling you this directly, the rest of us need to contact the Bishops etc.. and let them in on this.

Anyone who makes this entire issue seem 'easy' or, on the other hand 'forever impossible' - is a fool as I see it. You can't take a fifteen hundred year old problem and wish it away - or give up on it because it has been that way for fifteen hundred years or so.


Yes, in a sense you are right, and I appreciate your realistic optimism here,  but isn't it true, that some Orthodox do not approve of the theological consultations and  dialog with the Romans. Haven't we read about the comparison with the Council of Florence where Orthodox bishops "sold out" the Orthodox Church which was only subsequently saved through the efforts of St. Mark and the faith of the Orthodox people?
Anyway, I don't see how there is going to be any union if the Orthodox do not agree on the difference between lesser and grave sins. Suppose for example that you make one Xerox copy of a personal document at work and do not pay for it. Then you have effectively stolen five cents from your boss (who is a real cheapskate anyway, even though he is a multi-billionaire). (BTW, everyone is doing it and you needed that copy right away and you are underpaid, considering the amount of work that you do and what others are being paid). Now would this one venial sin disbar you from receiving Holy Communion in the Orthodox Church? Suppose that later on, a week later,  you left one nickel in the general fund box, as you realised what you had stolen. And are you then required to go to confession first and confess that you made one Xerox copy (worth five cents) of a document at work before receiving Holy Communion?  Is this sin considered to be different in gravity from one where you rob a bank and kill ten innocent people, wound twenty others and beat your wife who threatens to call the police against you?  
Have you come across any Orthodox priest barring someone from communion for making a xerox copy at work?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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and urgent strife sheds blood.
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if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline stanley123

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #454 on: April 16, 2012, 07:11:42 PM »
Which of course indicates that the Orthodox are the most open to reuniting: they accept anyone who accepts the basis of unity founded by and on Christ, which was manifested throughout the last two millenia.
Of course it all depends on what it means to accept the basis of unity. From what I heard it would only involve a few small things such as rebaptism by triple immersion of each and every Roman, re-education and retraining of each and every Roman clergyman, including the Pope, and subsequent reordination of same by an Eastern Orthodox bishop, banning of all statues and replacing them with officially approved icons (no western style unapproved icons allowed), acceptance of the Julian calendar and Orthodox date of Easter, reformation of the Roman Mass along the Byzantine lines, rejection of papal prerogatives such as infallibility, universal jurisdiction, etc. 

Stan, Stan, Stan, there you go again.

I suspect you didn't hear that from any of the clergy, bishops and professors appointed by their respective Churches to represent the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches representing say, either the International Roman Catholic/Orthodox Theological Consultation or its North American counterpart did you?

Gosh if you did hear personally from any of them PLEASE, do us a big favor and let us know - NAMES, dates etc... since such is contrary to what they have been publishing over the past three decades or so and if they are telling you this directly, the rest of us need to contact the Bishops etc.. and let them in on this.

Anyone who makes this entire issue seem 'easy' or, on the other hand 'forever impossible' - is a fool as I see it. You can't take a fifteen hundred year old problem and wish it away - or give up on it because it has been that way for fifteen hundred years or so.


Yes, in a sense you are right, and I appreciate your realistic optimism here,  but isn't it true, that some Orthodox do not approve of the theological consultations and  dialog with the Romans. Haven't we read about the comparison with the Council of Florence where Orthodox bishops "sold out" the Orthodox Church which was only subsequently saved through the efforts of St. Mark and the faith of the Orthodox people?
Anyway, I don't see how there is going to be any union if the Orthodox do not agree on the difference between lesser and grave sins. Suppose for example that you make one Xerox copy of a personal document at work and do not pay for it. Then you have effectively stolen five cents from your boss (who is a real cheapskate anyway, even though he is a multi-billionaire). (BTW, everyone is doing it and you needed that copy right away and you are underpaid, considering the amount of work that you do and what others are being paid). Now would this one venial sin disbar you from receiving Holy Communion in the Orthodox Church? Suppose that later on, a week later,  you left one nickel in the general fund box, as you realised what you had stolen. And are you then required to go to confession first and confess that you made one Xerox copy (worth five cents) of a document at work before receiving Holy Communion?  Is this sin considered to be different in gravity from one where you rob a bank and kill ten innocent people, wound twenty others and beat your wife who threatens to call the police against you? 
Have you come across any Orthodox priest barring someone from communion for making a xerox copy at work?
No, I have not. Which indicates that the Orthodox teach the same as the Romans that committing a venial sin does not disbar you from receiving Holy Communion. If that is so, then why do we hear from some posters here, that there should not be a distinction between venial and mortal sin?
« Last Edit: April 16, 2012, 07:12:37 PM by stanley123 »

Offline witega

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #455 on: April 16, 2012, 11:08:52 PM »
No, I have not. Which indicates that the Orthodox teach the same as the Romans that committing a venial sin does not disbar you from receiving Holy Communion. If that is so, then why do we hear from some posters here, that there should not be a distinction between venial and mortal sin?

Because there isn't one.
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Offline stanley123

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #456 on: April 16, 2012, 11:37:35 PM »
No, I have not. Which indicates that the Orthodox teach the same as the Romans that committing a venial sin does not disbar you from receiving Holy Communion. If that is so, then why do we hear from some posters here, that there should not be a distinction between venial and mortal sin?

Because there isn't one.
This is what I don't understand. Is theft of a small amount (say five cents)  a sin in the Orthodox Church? And if you steal such a small amount, or more generally,  if you commit a lesser sin, are you allowed to receive Holy Communion without confessing the lesser sin?

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #457 on: April 16, 2012, 11:43:48 PM »
No, I have not. Which indicates that the Orthodox teach the same as the Romans that committing a venial sin does not disbar you from receiving Holy Communion. If that is so, then why do we hear from some posters here, that there should not be a distinction between venial and mortal sin?

Because there isn't one.
This is what I don't understand. Is theft of a small amount (say five cents)  a sin in the Orthodox Church? And if you steal such a small amount, or more generally,  if you commit a lesser sin, are you allowed to receive Holy Communion without confessing the lesser sin?

There wasn't a venial/mortal distinction in the medieval Latin sense for the whole first 1,000 years of Church history, the period in which the greatest Fathers and saints lived. Obviously, they were horribly negligent and overlooked something which could only have been thought up later by those for whom civilization was only a recent discovery. There are sins leading to death (mortal), and those which do not necessarily lead to death, but they can become terrible passions if left unchecked.

Whether or not someone receives communion is a matter taken up between the communicant and his or her spiritual father. It is not generally a matter of automatic excommunication. There are guidelines such as if there is some sin of bodily impurity or anything regarding killing or hatred, et cetera. But if you have a sin on your conscience, why not confess it before communing? If you commune without a clear conscience, you've gone against the prayers you've just prayed which asks for communion with a clean conscience. So, maybe you repent of it and schedule a confession later, but if it really bothers you, abstain, and confess.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2012, 11:48:12 PM by Shanghaiski »
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Offline stanley123

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #458 on: April 16, 2012, 11:47:24 PM »
No, I have not. Which indicates that the Orthodox teach the same as the Romans that committing a venial sin does not disbar you from receiving Holy Communion. If that is so, then why do we hear from some posters here, that there should not be a distinction between venial and mortal sin?

Because there isn't one.
This is what I don't understand. Is theft of a small amount (say five cents)  a sin in the Orthodox Church? And if you steal such a small amount, or more generally,  if you commit a lesser sin, are you allowed to receive Holy Communion without confessing the lesser sin?

There wasn't one for the whole first 1,000 years of Church history, the period in which the greatest Fathers and saints lived. Obviously, they were horribly negligent and overlooked something which could only have been thought up later by those for whom civilization was only a recent discovery.
But according to Orthodox teaching,  should a lesser sin, such as theft of five cents, prevent  one from receiving Holy Communion without confessing this sin first?

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #459 on: April 16, 2012, 11:49:56 PM »
No, I have not. Which indicates that the Orthodox teach the same as the Romans that committing a venial sin does not disbar you from receiving Holy Communion. If that is so, then why do we hear from some posters here, that there should not be a distinction between venial and mortal sin?

Because there isn't one.
This is what I don't understand. Is theft of a small amount (say five cents)  a sin in the Orthodox Church? And if you steal such a small amount, or more generally,  if you commit a lesser sin, are you allowed to receive Holy Communion without confessing the lesser sin?

There wasn't one for the whole first 1,000 years of Church history, the period in which the greatest Fathers and saints lived. Obviously, they were horribly negligent and overlooked something which could only have been thought up later by those for whom civilization was only a recent discovery.
But according to Orthodox teaching,  should a lesser sin, such as theft of five cents, prevent  one from receiving Holy Communion without confessing this sin first?

We are not in the habit of dogmatizing everything. Why did you steal five cents? Was it intentional? Did you repent? Is there more there? Is your conscience bothering you? Have you, through constant theft, deafened your spiritual ears to hearing your conscience? Do you understand? If you make a hard rule either for or against, this does not do anyone a lot of good.
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Offline stanley123

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #460 on: April 17, 2012, 12:38:25 AM »
No, I have not. Which indicates that the Orthodox teach the same as the Romans that committing a venial sin does not disbar you from receiving Holy Communion. If that is so, then why do we hear from some posters here, that there should not be a distinction between venial and mortal sin?

Because there isn't one.
This is what I don't understand. Is theft of a small amount (say five cents)  a sin in the Orthodox Church? And if you steal such a small amount, or more generally,  if you commit a lesser sin, are you allowed to receive Holy Communion without confessing the lesser sin?

There wasn't one for the whole first 1,000 years of Church history, the period in which the greatest Fathers and saints lived. Obviously, they were horribly negligent and overlooked something which could only have been thought up later by those for whom civilization was only a recent discovery.
But according to Orthodox teaching,  should a lesser sin, such as theft of five cents, prevent  one from receiving Holy Communion without confessing this sin first?

We are not in the habit of dogmatizing everything. Why did you steal five cents? Was it intentional? Did you repent? Is there more there? Is your conscience bothering you? Have you, through constant theft, deafened your spiritual ears to hearing your conscience? Do you understand? If you make a hard rule either for or against, this does not do anyone a lot of good.
These are good questions and observations that you are making and of course, we should always be alert to any weaknesses that we have and to pray to strengthen our will to resist evil. Generally, there is a lot to like about your answer.
However, in this case, it was only the sin of making one personal  Xerox copy on the office copy machine, and not paying for it.
That was the only sin that you had committed. Would it be all right if you presented yourself for Holy Communion, without confessing this or would it be necessary to confess it first?
For a Roman, it is not a problem. If a Roman has committed a venial sin, he may present himself for Holy Communion, assuming he has the proper attitude and uses the situation for self-reflection and improvement. However, a Roman may not present himself for Holy Communion if he has committed a mortal sin.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 12:44:00 AM by stanley123 »

Offline age234

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #461 on: April 17, 2012, 12:59:31 AM »
Just like any good judge knows, there are many factors that go into the seriousness of a sin. Intent is a big part of it.

If I shoot someone, is it murder in the eyes of the law? It depends. Was it my neighbor who I can't stand, or was it a burglar who was walking towards my daughter's bedroom?

Did I make the xerox because I hate my boss and I'm secretly happy to stick it to him with my little acts of rebellion and theft? Or did I make the xerox because it was necessary and is an accepted practice at my office?

Making a 5¢ xerox could easily be a mortal sin. Or it could be nothing. It depends on more than the act itself. God gives us a conscience for this reason, and He gives us the Church to help us develop it.

Offline stanley123

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #462 on: April 17, 2012, 02:39:00 AM »
Just like any good judge knows, there are many factors that go into the seriousness of a sin. Intent is a big part of it.

If I shoot someone, is it murder in the eyes of the law? It depends. Was it my neighbor who I can't stand, or was it a burglar who was walking towards my daughter's bedroom?

Did I make the xerox because I hate my boss and I'm secretly happy to stick it to him with my little acts of rebellion and theft? Or did I make the xerox because it was necessary and is an accepted practice at my office?

Making a 5¢ xerox could easily be a mortal sin. Or it could be nothing. It depends on more than the act itself. God gives us a conscience for this reason, and He gives us the Church to help us develop it.
Yes, in judging the seriousness of a sin, I certainly agree that  you always have to take into account the many factors which caused you to have gone wrong. But I am thinking here  that, after taking into consideration all of those aforementioned factors,  there are some sins which you commit and they do not prevent you from presenting yourself for Holy Communion, while other sins would prevent you from presenting yourself. For another example, take the case of a "white" lie. It is a sin to tell a lie, is it not? But some lies are not all that bad. For example, if you want to get rid of an annoying sales person who has called you in the middle of dinner and when you answer the phone he tells you that he has the best duct cleaning service and he asks for the lady of the house. He goes into detail about the cleaning process, and the fact that he also does carpets, etc.  You then falsely tell him that you are sorry but the lady of the house is not here, she is out of town and won't be back soon and you hang up. This is so you can join her and the rest of your family for the delicious meal which your wife has prepared. My guess is  that such a "white" lie told for the sole purpose of getting rid of the annoying telemarketeer and joining your wife and kids at mealtime would not prevent you from presenting yourself for Holy Communion, even though it was a lie? Actually there are two lies here, the other one is when you told him that you were sorry. You really weren't sorry, but you were annoyed, and it was your wife and kids who were sorry that you had left them at dinnertime for this annoying sales call. You were just being politically correct and wanted to get rid of him ASAP without hurting his feelings.
To sum up, for a Roman there are two categories of sins:
Category I: This sin, after all due reflection and consideration, would not prevent you from presenting yourself at Holy Communion. Of course, you still must have the proper intention and attitude to do good and to avoid all sin as best as you can.  The Roman says that this is a venial sin.
Category II: This sin, considering the gravity, the intent and the motivation, is serious and does require you to confess it before receiving Holy Communion. The Roman says that this is a mortal sin.
This is one area where I suspect that some Romans would have difficulty in adjusting to - if there were no distinction made between the two cases.



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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #463 on: April 17, 2012, 09:50:51 AM »
Quote
If we were to resume communion, I would not leave Orthodoxy.  I would simply begin to commune.

EM, observing certain aspects of Orthodox praxis does not make you part of the Orthodox Church if your baptism and reception of communion is in another church.

When I need to discuss any of this I will go to a priest or bishop, not you.  There are too many eastern Catholics who commune in Orthodoxy for me to take much of anything you have to say seriously.


You do realize LBK can say the same thing right back at you, only she actually has the written documentation from said priests and/or bishops as opposed to your alleged private conversations with the same.
What exactly do you mean here?

What I mean is that there are countless Orthodox bishops that will go on record as saying that Catholicism and Orthodoxy are not the same and that Orthodox cannot commune in Catholic churches.

elijahmaria has constantly said that she has had conversations with Orthodox bishops and priests who say the opposite.  Off the record.  Privately. 
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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #464 on: April 17, 2012, 10:16:38 AM »
Quote
If we were to resume communion, I would not leave Orthodoxy.  I would simply begin to commune.

EM, observing certain aspects of Orthodox praxis does not make you part of the Orthodox Church if your baptism and reception of communion is in another church.

When I need to discuss any of this I will go to a priest or bishop, not you.  There are too many eastern Catholics who commune in Orthodoxy for me to take much of anything you have to say seriously.


You do realize LBK can say the same thing right back at you, only she actually has the written documentation from said priests and/or bishops as opposed to your alleged private conversations with the same.
What exactly do you mean here?

What I mean is that there are countless Orthodox bishops that will go on record as saying that Catholicism and Orthodoxy are not the same and that Orthodox cannot commune in Catholic churches.

elijahmaria has constantly said that she has had conversations with Orthodox bishops and priests who say the opposite.  Off the record.  Privately.  
Ah, I see. Thank you for clarifying. And for the record, I agree with those Eastern Orthodox bishops. There are real differences that separate us.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 10:17:57 AM by Papist »
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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #465 on: April 17, 2012, 10:41:50 AM »
What a bishop says privately does not matter with me. In my opinion if he performs his office in obedience to the Church inspite of a personal preference for something (like communing Eastern Catholics or Gay marriage) that, to me, is to his credit.

I also agree with the above. There are real differences and should not be case aside.

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #466 on: April 17, 2012, 10:48:33 AM »
What a bishop says privately does not matter with me. In my opinion if he performs his office in obedience to the Church inspite of a personal preference for something (like communing Eastern Catholics or Gay marriage) that, to me, is to his credit.

I also agree with the above. There are real differences and should not be case aside.

PP
That being said, we should never stop praying that the Holy Spirit bring about a resolution of those differences in truth.
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #467 on: April 17, 2012, 10:49:27 AM »
What a bishop says privately does not matter with me. In my opinion if he performs his office in obedience to the Church inspite of a personal preference for something (like communing Eastern Catholics or Gay marriage) that, to me, is to his credit.

I also agree with the above. There are real differences and should not be case aside.

PP
That being said, we should never stop praying that the Holy Spirit bring about a resolution of those differences in truth.
Amen to that.

PP
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #468 on: April 17, 2012, 10:50:36 AM »
Quote
If we were to resume communion, I would not leave Orthodoxy.  I would simply begin to commune.

EM, observing certain aspects of Orthodox praxis does not make you part of the Orthodox Church if your baptism and reception of communion is in another church.

When I need to discuss any of this I will go to a priest or bishop, not you.  There are too many eastern Catholics who commune in Orthodoxy for me to take much of anything you have to say seriously.


You do realize LBK can say the same thing right back at you, only she actually has the written documentation from said priests and/or bishops as opposed to your alleged private conversations with the same.
What exactly do you mean here?

What I mean is that there are countless Orthodox bishops that will go on record as saying that Catholicism and Orthodoxy are not the same and that Orthodox cannot commune in Catholic churches.

elijahmaria has constantly said that she has had conversations with Orthodox bishops and priests who say the opposite.  Off the record.  Privately.  
Ah, I see. Thank you for clarifying. And for the record, I agree with those Eastern Orthodox bishops. There are real differences that separate us.

People tend to go to both extremes. That is to say, there are many who disregard the similarities, and there are many who disregard the  differences.
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Offline Papist

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #469 on: April 17, 2012, 10:51:12 AM »
 I wonder how many of us pray for unity in truth.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 10:51:58 AM by Papist »
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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #470 on: April 17, 2012, 10:51:41 AM »
Quote
If we were to resume communion, I would not leave Orthodoxy.  I would simply begin to commune.

EM, observing certain aspects of Orthodox praxis does not make you part of the Orthodox Church if your baptism and reception of communion is in another church.

When I need to discuss any of this I will go to a priest or bishop, not you.  There are too many eastern Catholics who commune in Orthodoxy for me to take much of anything you have to say seriously.


You do realize LBK can say the same thing right back at you, only she actually has the written documentation from said priests and/or bishops as opposed to your alleged private conversations with the same.
What exactly do you mean here?

What I mean is that there are countless Orthodox bishops that will go on record as saying that Catholicism and Orthodoxy are not the same and that Orthodox cannot commune in Catholic churches.

elijahmaria has constantly said that she has had conversations with Orthodox bishops and priests who say the opposite.  Off the record.  Privately.  
Ah, I see. Thank you for clarifying. And for the record, I agree with those Eastern Orthodox bishops. There are real differences that separate us.

People tend to go to both extremes. That is to say, there are many who disregard the similarities, and there are many who disregard the  differences.
I agree 100%. Both extremes are problematic.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #471 on: April 17, 2012, 10:58:30 AM »
What a bishop says privately does not matter with me. In my opinion if he performs his office in obedience to the Church inspite of a personal preference for something (like communing Eastern Catholics or Gay marriage) that, to me, is to his credit.

I also agree with the above. There are real differences and should not be case aside.

PP
That being said, we should never stop praying that the Holy Spirit bring about a resolution of those differences in truth.
Amen to that.

PP

Amen indeed. And let's not forget humility. One thing I've heard over and over (and over) is that if I'm not pro-unionist then I must be lacking in humility. Personally, I don't think I would put it quite that way; but whether you do or not, there can be no doubt that humility is crucial.
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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #472 on: April 17, 2012, 11:10:35 AM »
I wonder how many of us pray for unity in truth.

The Orthodox do, at every Divine Liturgy:

Having prayed for the unity of faith and for the communion of the Holy Spirit, let us commit ourselves, and one another, and our whole life to Christ our God.
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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #473 on: April 17, 2012, 11:16:40 AM »
I wonder how many of us pray for unity in truth.

The Orthodox do, at every Divine Liturgy:

Having prayed for the unity of faith and for the communion of the Holy Spirit, let us commit ourselves, and one another, and our whole life to Christ our God.
Ah yes. I have heard this prayer at Byzantine Catholic Liturgy.
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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #474 on: April 17, 2012, 12:08:07 PM »
Which of course indicates that the Orthodox are the most open to reuniting: they accept anyone who accepts the basis of unity founded by and on Christ, which was manifested throughout the last two millenia.
Of course it all depends on what it means to accept the basis of unity. From what I heard it would only involve a few small things such as rebaptism by triple immersion of each and every Roman, re-education and retraining of each and every Roman clergyman, including the Pope, and subsequent reordination of same by an Eastern Orthodox bishop, banning of all statues and replacing them with officially approved icons (no western style unapproved icons allowed), acceptance of the Julian calendar and Orthodox date of Easter, reformation of the Roman Mass along the Byzantine lines, rejection of papal prerogatives such as infallibility, universal jurisdiction, etc.  

Stan, Stan, Stan, there you go again.

I suspect you didn't hear that from any of the clergy, bishops and professors appointed by their respective Churches to represent the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches representing say, either the International Roman Catholic/Orthodox Theological Consultation or its North American counterpart did you?

Gosh if you did hear personally from any of them PLEASE, do us a big favor and let us know - NAMES, dates etc... since such is contrary to what they have been publishing over the past three decades or so and if they are telling you this directly, the rest of us need to contact the Bishops etc.. and let them in on this.

Anyone who makes this entire issue seem 'easy' or, on the other hand 'forever impossible' - is a fool as I see it. You can't take a fifteen hundred year old problem and wish it away - or give up on it because it has been that way for fifteen hundred years or so.



I would say that in a schism where intercommunion is far more common than the average protestant or Catholic convert to Orthodoxy cares to admit, and not nearly the state secret that they'd like it to be....I would say that schism is something of a skin deep cut...I don't ask you to say that...Just using this as an excuse for me to say that.

M.

I believe that unless and until some Orthodox see and place their fingers in the "skin deep cut", they will *never* believe that such inter-communion exists or is tolerated, much less permitted.

Tell me why those who would seek to destroy it would be encouraged to "see" it?

I'm afraid I can't.

Even though unity is prayed for in the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgies, I can't help but wonder, and will probably never know, how many people who say "amen" to that sincerely mean it in their hearts.  As I tend to be somewhat more optimistic than pessimistic (or just plain naive  ;D), I would hope that those whose "amen" is lukewarm or insincere are in a small minority.
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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #475 on: April 17, 2012, 12:32:38 PM »
I'm afraid I can't.

Even though unity is prayed for in the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgies, I can't help but wonder, and will probably never know, how many people who say "amen" to that sincerely mean it in their hearts.  As I tend to be somewhat more optimistic than pessimistic (or just plain naive  ;D), I would hope that those whose "amen" is lukewarm or insincere are in a small minority.

I don't know if it's a matter of insincerity, or just a different understanding of praying for "unity": on the one hand, a Catholic can understand it in terms of coming to full communion with the supreme pontiff, while an Orthodox can understand it in terms of repentance from Catholic/Protestant heresies.
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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #476 on: April 17, 2012, 12:40:06 PM »
I'm afraid I can't.

Even though unity is prayed for in the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgies, I can't help but wonder, and will probably never know, how many people who say "amen" to that sincerely mean it in their hearts.  As I tend to be somewhat more optimistic than pessimistic (or just plain naive  ;D), I would hope that those whose "amen" is lukewarm or insincere are in a small minority.

I don't know if it's a matter of insincerity, or just a different understanding of praying for "unity": on the one hand, a Catholic can understand it in terms of coming to full communion with the supreme pontiff, while an Orthodox can understand it in terms of repentance from Catholic/Protestant heresies.

Yes, you're right about that.  What I purposely left out of my post, however,  was any mention of how that unity would look and under what terms it would take place.  I'm getting kind of dizzy from riding that merry-go-round, if you know what I mean  :laugh:.
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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #477 on: April 17, 2012, 12:42:01 PM »
I'm afraid I can't.

Even though unity is prayed for in the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgies, I can't help but wonder, and will probably never know, how many people who say "amen" to that sincerely mean it in their hearts.  As I tend to be somewhat more optimistic than pessimistic (or just plain naive  ;D), I would hope that those whose "amen" is lukewarm or insincere are in a small minority.

I don't know if it's a matter of insincerity, or just a different understanding of praying for "unity": on the one hand, a Catholic can understand it in terms of coming to full communion with the supreme pontiff, while an Orthodox can understand it in terms of repentance from Catholic/Protestant heresies.

Yes, you're right about that.  What I purposely left out of my post, however,  was any mention of how that unity would look and under what terms it would take place.  I'm getting kind of dizzy from riding that merry-go-round, if you know what I mean  :laugh:.
I would think that when we pray for unity, we are all praying for the other side to convert.  ;D
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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #478 on: April 17, 2012, 12:46:33 PM »
I'm afraid I can't.

Even though unity is prayed for in the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgies, I can't help but wonder, and will probably never know, how many people who say "amen" to that sincerely mean it in their hearts.  As I tend to be somewhat more optimistic than pessimistic (or just plain naive  ;D), I would hope that those whose "amen" is lukewarm or insincere are in a small minority.

I don't know if it's a matter of insincerity, or just a different understanding of praying for "unity": on the one hand, a Catholic can understand it in terms of coming to full communion with the supreme pontiff, while an Orthodox can understand it in terms of repentance from Catholic/Protestant heresies.

Yes, you're right about that.  What I purposely left out of my post, however,  was any mention of how that unity would look and under what terms it would take place.  I'm getting kind of dizzy from riding that merry-go-round, if you know what I mean  :laugh:.
I would think that when we pray for unity, we are all praying for the other side to convert.  ;D

It would seem that way, wouldn't it?

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #479 on: April 17, 2012, 12:55:47 PM »
I'm afraid I can't.

Even though unity is prayed for in the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgies, I can't help but wonder, and will probably never know, how many people who say "amen" to that sincerely mean it in their hearts.  As I tend to be somewhat more optimistic than pessimistic (or just plain naive  ;D), I would hope that those whose "amen" is lukewarm or insincere are in a small minority.

I don't know if it's a matter of insincerity, or just a different understanding of praying for "unity": on the one hand, a Catholic can understand it in terms of coming to full communion with the supreme pontiff, while an Orthodox can understand it in terms of repentance from Catholic/Protestant heresies.

Yes, you're right about that.  What I purposely left out of my post, however,  was any mention of how that unity would look and under what terms it would take place.  I'm getting kind of dizzy from riding that merry-go-round, if you know what I mean  :laugh:.
I would think that when we pray for unity, we are all praying for the other side to convert.  ;D
Depends on who is the subject of the prayer ;)

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #480 on: April 17, 2012, 01:43:02 PM »
Quote
If we were to resume communion, I would not leave Orthodoxy.  I would simply begin to commune.

EM, observing certain aspects of Orthodox praxis does not make you part of the Orthodox Church if your baptism and reception of communion is in another church.

When I need to discuss any of this I will go to a priest or bishop, not you.  There are too many eastern Catholics who commune in Orthodoxy for me to take much of anything you have to say seriously.


You do realize LBK can say the same thing right back at you, only she actually has the written documentation from said priests and/or bishops as opposed to your alleged private conversations with the same.
What exactly do you mean here?

What I mean is that there are countless Orthodox bishops that will go on record as saying that Catholicism and Orthodoxy are not the same and that Orthodox cannot commune in Catholic churches.

elijahmaria has constantly said that she has had conversations with Orthodox bishops and priests who say the opposite.  Off the record.  Privately. 

The point is intercommunion, not elijahmaria. 

To address your point here about bishops on record: Why given the kind of thing that goes on here would ANY bishop, regardless of his understanding of the schism, ever be too open if he does something for a Catholic in economy?    Some bishops are more open than others.  I happen to know more of the kind who are not, actually, but that is not the point.

What I have been addressing is the fact that there is intercommunion in the Orthodox world and it is not shut down.  In fact it opens more as time goes on.  It is related to some specific locations in the Orthodox world and to certain groups of peoples who are traditionally Orthodox/eastern Catholic.  Not only that but there have been very very few times in the long history of the schism where there has NOT been intercommunion.

The FACT that this intercommunion goes on unabated among Catholics and Orthodox but does NOT happen with the same historical ease between either Catholic or Orthodox and other Christians, tells me something about the schism.   It does not mean that the schism does not exist.  It indicates that the schism is not quite as severe as some might hope and wish for...thank God.

Personally, I am not at all saddened by the possibility that protestant and Catholic converts to Orthodoxy may some day have to give up some of their antipathy to the papal office and the Catholic Church.  That don't bother me a bit.

Christ is Risen!

M.


Offline Peter J

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #481 on: April 17, 2012, 01:52:54 PM »
I'm afraid I can't.

Even though unity is prayed for in the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgies, I can't help but wonder, and will probably never know, how many people who say "amen" to that sincerely mean it in their hearts.  As I tend to be somewhat more optimistic than pessimistic (or just plain naive  ;D), I would hope that those whose "amen" is lukewarm or insincere are in a small minority.

I don't know if it's a matter of insincerity, or just a different understanding of praying for "unity": on the one hand, a Catholic can understand it in terms of coming to full communion with the supreme pontiff, while an Orthodox can understand it in terms of repentance from Catholic/Protestant heresies.

Yes, you're right about that.  What I purposely left out of my post, however,  was any mention of how that unity would look and under what terms it would take place.  I'm getting kind of dizzy from riding that merry-go-round, if you know what I mean  :laugh:.
I would think that when we pray for unity, we are all praying for the other side to convert.  ;D

Indeed, I thought about continuing my last post with e.g. "a Southern Baptist can understand it in terms of repentance from Orthodox/Catholic/Lutherans/Calvinist heresies." etc.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #482 on: April 17, 2012, 03:36:31 PM »
No, I have not. Which indicates that the Orthodox teach the same as the Romans that committing a venial sin does not disbar you from receiving Holy Communion. If that is so, then why do we hear from some posters here, that there should not be a distinction between venial and mortal sin?

Because there isn't one.
This is what I don't understand. Is theft of a small amount (say five cents)  a sin in the Orthodox Church? And if you steal such a small amount, or more generally,  if you commit a lesser sin, are you allowed to receive Holy Communion without confessing the lesser sin?

There wasn't one for the whole first 1,000 years of Church history, the period in which the greatest Fathers and saints lived. Obviously, they were horribly negligent and overlooked something which could only have been thought up later by those for whom civilization was only a recent discovery.
But according to Orthodox teaching,  should a lesser sin, such as theft of five cents, prevent  one from receiving Holy Communion without confessing this sin first?

We are not in the habit of dogmatizing everything. Why did you steal five cents? Was it intentional? Did you repent? Is there more there? Is your conscience bothering you? Have you, through constant theft, deafened your spiritual ears to hearing your conscience? Do you understand? If you make a hard rule either for or against, this does not do anyone a lot of good.
These are good questions and observations that you are making and of course, we should always be alert to any weaknesses that we have and to pray to strengthen our will to resist evil. Generally, there is a lot to like about your answer.
However, in this case, it was only the sin of making one personal  Xerox copy on the office copy machine, and not paying for it.
That was the only sin that you had committed. Would it be all right if you presented yourself for Holy Communion, without confessing this or would it be necessary to confess it first?
For a Roman, it is not a problem. If a Roman has committed a venial sin, he may present himself for Holy Communion, assuming he has the proper attitude and uses the situation for self-reflection and improvement. However, a Roman may not present himself for Holy Communion if he has committed a mortal sin.

Maybe we are operating under two conflicting mindsets here. I explained what I believed, and yet the question continues. To me, the only person who can see a sin and give a blessing to commune or not to commune is the spiritual father. If I were to say, "Oh, it's no big deal. Go ahead," I would feel irresponsible. It really depends on each individual and his or her spiritual father and his or her conscience. I don't see how one can accurately say otherwise. In many ways, aside from the Roman Catholic Church's work against heresies denying the Real Presence, it seems to me the Holy Gifts and participation in them is sometimes treated with a sense that reception of them is a right. I only see this, however, in RC-ism of the last couple hundred years. I could be wrong--maybe it's been there for the last thousand, maybe it's never been there, but that's how it appears to me. And modern American Christians have this hidden sense of their rights which runs contrary to much of the Orthodox mindset, not to mention the traditional mindset pre-Enlightenment.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #483 on: April 17, 2012, 03:43:57 PM »
Which of course indicates that the Orthodox are the most open to reuniting: they accept anyone who accepts the basis of unity founded by and on Christ, which was manifested throughout the last two millenia.
Of course it all depends on what it means to accept the basis of unity. From what I heard it would only involve a few small things such as rebaptism by triple immersion of each and every Roman, re-education and retraining of each and every Roman clergyman, including the Pope, and subsequent reordination of same by an Eastern Orthodox bishop, banning of all statues and replacing them with officially approved icons (no western style unapproved icons allowed), acceptance of the Julian calendar and Orthodox date of Easter, reformation of the Roman Mass along the Byzantine lines, rejection of papal prerogatives such as infallibility, universal jurisdiction, etc.  

Stan, Stan, Stan, there you go again.

I suspect you didn't hear that from any of the clergy, bishops and professors appointed by their respective Churches to represent the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches representing say, either the International Roman Catholic/Orthodox Theological Consultation or its North American counterpart did you?

Gosh if you did hear personally from any of them PLEASE, do us a big favor and let us know - NAMES, dates etc... since such is contrary to what they have been publishing over the past three decades or so and if they are telling you this directly, the rest of us need to contact the Bishops etc.. and let them in on this.

Anyone who makes this entire issue seem 'easy' or, on the other hand 'forever impossible' - is a fool as I see it. You can't take a fifteen hundred year old problem and wish it away - or give up on it because it has been that way for fifteen hundred years or so.



I would say that in a schism where intercommunion is far more common than the average protestant or Catholic convert to Orthodoxy cares to admit, and not nearly the state secret that they'd like it to be....I would say that schism is something of a skin deep cut...I don't ask you to say that...Just using this as an excuse for me to say that.

M.

I believe that unless and until some Orthodox see and place their fingers in the "skin deep cut", they will *never* believe that such inter-communion exists or is tolerated, much less permitted.

Tell me why those who would seek to destroy it would be encouraged to "see" it?

I'm afraid I can't.

Even though unity is prayed for in the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgies, I can't help but wonder, and will probably never know, how many people who say "amen" to that sincerely mean it in their hearts.  As I tend to be somewhat more optimistic than pessimistic (or just plain naive  ;D), I would hope that those whose "amen" is lukewarm or insincere are in a small minority.

To me, it is unimportant if we have "unity," whatever that nebulous concept is supposed to be. I find it more meaningful to pray God grant everyone repentance and salvation--that is what I pray for myself.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #484 on: April 17, 2012, 03:47:07 PM »
I'm afraid I can't.

Even though unity is prayed for in the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgies, I can't help but wonder, and will probably never know, how many people who say "amen" to that sincerely mean it in their hearts.  As I tend to be somewhat more optimistic than pessimistic (or just plain naive  ;D), I would hope that those whose "amen" is lukewarm or insincere are in a small minority.

I don't know if it's a matter of insincerity, or just a different understanding of praying for "unity": on the one hand, a Catholic can understand it in terms of coming to full communion with the supreme pontiff, while an Orthodox can understand it in terms of repentance from Catholic/Protestant heresies.

Exactly. The "Week of Prayer for Christian Unity" around the Feast of the Chair of St. Peter at Rome (a very late addition to the calendar, btw--the Feast of the Chair of St. Peter at Antioch far precedes it on the Roman calendar) was devised just for that purpose--bringing everyone to full communion with/to kiss the boot of the supreme pontiff. Hence the wariness.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #485 on: April 17, 2012, 04:40:17 PM »
I don't know if it's a matter of insincerity, or just a different understanding of praying for "unity": on the one hand, a Catholic can understand it in terms of coming to full communion with the supreme pontiff, while an Orthodox can understand it in terms of repentance from Catholic/Protestant heresies.
Exactly.

I'm afraid I can't.

Even though unity is prayed for in the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgies, I can't help but wonder, and will probably never know, how many people who say "amen" to that sincerely mean it in their hearts.  As I tend to be somewhat more optimistic than pessimistic (or just plain naive  ;D), I would hope that those whose "amen" is lukewarm or insincere are in a small minority.

I don't know if it's a matter of insincerity, or just a different understanding of praying for "unity": on the one hand, a Catholic can understand it in terms of coming to full communion with the supreme pontiff, while an Orthodox can understand it in terms of repentance from Catholic/Protestant heresies.

Yes, you're right about that. 

I hope this won't sound conceited, but the fact that you both agree makes me feel like I wrote a new episode for The Twilight Zone.
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Offline J Michael

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #486 on: April 17, 2012, 04:47:06 PM »
I don't know if it's a matter of insincerity, or just a different understanding of praying for "unity": on the one hand, a Catholic can understand it in terms of coming to full communion with the supreme pontiff, while an Orthodox can understand it in terms of repentance from Catholic/Protestant heresies.
Exactly.

I'm afraid I can't.

Even though unity is prayed for in the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgies, I can't help but wonder, and will probably never know, how many people who say "amen" to that sincerely mean it in their hearts.  As I tend to be somewhat more optimistic than pessimistic (or just plain naive  ;D), I would hope that those whose "amen" is lukewarm or insincere are in a small minority.

I don't know if it's a matter of insincerity, or just a different understanding of praying for "unity": on the one hand, a Catholic can understand it in terms of coming to full communion with the supreme pontiff, while an Orthodox can understand it in terms of repentance from Catholic/Protestant heresies.

Yes, you're right about that. 

I hope this won't sound conceited, but the fact that you both agree makes me feel like I wrote a new episode for The Twilight Zone.

Hadn't you noticed?  This *is* the Twilight Zone.  The fact that you feel like you just wrote a new episode for an old t.v. show of the same name just confirms it.  :laugh: :laugh:
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"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #487 on: April 17, 2012, 05:12:57 PM »
I don't know if it's a matter of insincerity, or just a different understanding of praying for "unity": on the one hand, a Catholic can understand it in terms of coming to full communion with the supreme pontiff, while an Orthodox can understand it in terms of repentance from Catholic/Protestant heresies.
Exactly.

I'm afraid I can't.

Even though unity is prayed for in the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgies, I can't help but wonder, and will probably never know, how many people who say "amen" to that sincerely mean it in their hearts.  As I tend to be somewhat more optimistic than pessimistic (or just plain naive  ;D), I would hope that those whose "amen" is lukewarm or insincere are in a small minority.

I don't know if it's a matter of insincerity, or just a different understanding of praying for "unity": on the one hand, a Catholic can understand it in terms of coming to full communion with the supreme pontiff, while an Orthodox can understand it in terms of repentance from Catholic/Protestant heresies.

Yes, you're right about that. 

I hope this won't sound conceited, but the fact that you both agree makes me feel like I wrote a new episode for The Twilight Zone.

Hadn't you noticed?  This *is* the Twilight Zone.  The fact that you feel like you just wrote a new episode for an old t.v. show of the same name just confirms it.  :laugh: :laugh:

FWIT Rod Serling was the most famous graduate of my high school and its school of performing arts is named after him....

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #488 on: April 17, 2012, 05:19:07 PM »


FWIT Rod Serling was the most famous graduate of my high school and its school of performing arts is named after him....

That is interesting!  What high school has a school of performing arts?  I think that is even better!

Also I am sorry for my using your note in the other thread to make a point.  Should have walked away.

Mary

Offline J Michael

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #489 on: April 17, 2012, 05:21:16 PM »
I don't know if it's a matter of insincerity, or just a different understanding of praying for "unity": on the one hand, a Catholic can understand it in terms of coming to full communion with the supreme pontiff, while an Orthodox can understand it in terms of repentance from Catholic/Protestant heresies.
Exactly.

I'm afraid I can't.

Even though unity is prayed for in the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgies, I can't help but wonder, and will probably never know, how many people who say "amen" to that sincerely mean it in their hearts.  As I tend to be somewhat more optimistic than pessimistic (or just plain naive  ;D), I would hope that those whose "amen" is lukewarm or insincere are in a small minority.

I don't know if it's a matter of insincerity, or just a different understanding of praying for "unity": on the one hand, a Catholic can understand it in terms of coming to full communion with the supreme pontiff, while an Orthodox can understand it in terms of repentance from Catholic/Protestant heresies.

Yes, you're right about that. 

I hope this won't sound conceited, but the fact that you both agree makes me feel like I wrote a new episode for The Twilight Zone.

Hadn't you noticed?  This *is* the Twilight Zone.  The fact that you feel like you just wrote a new episode for an old t.v. show of the same name just confirms it.  :laugh: :laugh:

FWIT Rod Serling was the most famous graduate of my high school and its school of performing arts is named after him....

Hmmm......something about Pennsylvania  ;D.
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #490 on: April 17, 2012, 05:21:33 PM »
I don't know if it's a matter of insincerity, or just a different understanding of praying for "unity": on the one hand, a Catholic can understand it in terms of coming to full communion with the supreme pontiff, while an Orthodox can understand it in terms of repentance from Catholic/Protestant heresies.
Exactly.

I'm afraid I can't.

Even though unity is prayed for in the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgies, I can't help but wonder, and will probably never know, how many people who say "amen" to that sincerely mean it in their hearts.  As I tend to be somewhat more optimistic than pessimistic (or just plain naive  ;D), I would hope that those whose "amen" is lukewarm or insincere are in a small minority.

I don't know if it's a matter of insincerity, or just a different understanding of praying for "unity": on the one hand, a Catholic can understand it in terms of coming to full communion with the supreme pontiff, while an Orthodox can understand it in terms of repentance from Catholic/Protestant heresies.

Yes, you're right about that. 

I hope this won't sound conceited, but the fact that you both agree makes me feel like I wrote a new episode for The Twilight Zone.

Hadn't you noticed?  This *is* the Twilight Zone.  The fact that you feel like you just wrote a new episode for an old t.v. show of the same name just confirms it.  :laugh: :laugh:

do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do
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Offline J Michael

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #491 on: April 17, 2012, 05:24:08 PM »
I don't know if it's a matter of insincerity, or just a different understanding of praying for "unity": on the one hand, a Catholic can understand it in terms of coming to full communion with the supreme pontiff, while an Orthodox can understand it in terms of repentance from Catholic/Protestant heresies.
Exactly.

I'm afraid I can't.

Even though unity is prayed for in the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgies, I can't help but wonder, and will probably never know, how many people who say "amen" to that sincerely mean it in their hearts.  As I tend to be somewhat more optimistic than pessimistic (or just plain naive  ;D), I would hope that those whose "amen" is lukewarm or insincere are in a small minority.

I don't know if it's a matter of insincerity, or just a different understanding of praying for "unity": on the one hand, a Catholic can understand it in terms of coming to full communion with the supreme pontiff, while an Orthodox can understand it in terms of repentance from Catholic/Protestant heresies.

Yes, you're right about that. 

I hope this won't sound conceited, but the fact that you both agree makes me feel like I wrote a new episode for The Twilight Zone.

Hadn't you noticed?  This *is* the Twilight Zone.  The fact that you feel like you just wrote a new episode for an old t.v. show of the same name just confirms it.  :laugh: :laugh:

do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do

Yup.
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline Peter J

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #492 on: April 17, 2012, 05:31:04 PM »
FWIT Rod Serling was the most famous graduate of my high school and its school of performing arts is named after him....

That is interesting!

That it is. :)
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Offline Apotheoun

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #493 on: April 17, 2012, 06:00:57 PM »
Quote
"If we were to resume communion... there would be ONE Church".
The many Churches are the one Church; for the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church exists - whole and entire - only in and through the many local (eparchial / diocesan) Churches.
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Offline Apotheoun

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Re: Which church is more open to reuniting??
« Reply #494 on: April 17, 2012, 06:03:30 PM »
Technically, I believe, the Pope does not confirm diocesan bishops in the Eastern Catholic Churches.  Rather, I believe, the synod a diocese belongs to submits a list of names to the Pope, and then he eliminates those names he finds unacceptable.  The synod can then elect any of those people without any further relation to the Pope.  Or, they could elect someone not on the list of approved persons, in which case the Pope's consent has to be obtained.
Why should he [i.e., the Pope or his curia] be involved at all?
He shouldn't be.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 06:11:18 PM by Apotheoun »
"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
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"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite