OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 20, 2014, 01:13:25 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 »   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Which church is more open to reuniting??  (Read 14898 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #315 on: April 09, 2012, 07:10:59 PM »

I feel pretty confident saying (or rather, repeating what I've heard EO priests say) that if the West were to return to its pre-Great Schism understanding of itself and its Bishop, the vast majority of the world's EO would be very happy to receive you as fellow believers of one and the same church, as it was before the schism. No conversion is really necessary. Wink
Logged

biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Warned
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 13,994


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #316 on: April 09, 2012, 07:16:07 PM »

What will we do, though, if the other church adopts the Orthodox date of Pascha, and we don't get to reap the benefits anymore of having two candy sales in one month?
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
ICXCNIKA
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 661



« Reply #317 on: April 09, 2012, 07:37:36 PM »

In my experience both sides are open but the Roman Church is more interested. It is difficult since the Vatican does not have a person or persons with which they can work with on the Orthodox side due to a good deal of conflict and internal chaos on our part. It also doesn't help that the Patriarch of Moscow refuses to meet with the pope. That is just my opinion. I know that Cardinal Kasper (I could be wrong) was unsure how to proceed because the Orthodox Church has no central authority. The Vatican would need to convince 15 Autocephalous Churches that union would be beneficial and desireable.
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,249


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #318 on: April 09, 2012, 08:03:17 PM »

^ I suppose ya'll could call an ecumenical council to detemine if it's Ok to talk to Roman Catholics. Wink
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 08:22:58 PM by Papist » Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,094


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #319 on: April 09, 2012, 08:11:23 PM »

^ I suppose ya'll could an ecumenical council to detemine if it's Ok to talk to Roman Catholics. Wink

Would need a byzantine emperor first...
Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,249


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #320 on: April 09, 2012, 08:23:38 PM »

^ I suppose ya'll could an ecumenical council to detemine if it's Ok to talk to Roman Catholics. Wink

Would need a byzantine emperor first...
Well let's get with it. The time to re-establish the Roman Empire is nigh... You see, it's really the Trukish government that is preventing our reunion.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 08:26:02 PM by Papist » Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,973


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #321 on: April 09, 2012, 10:40:47 PM »

^ I suppose ya'll could an ecumenical council to detemine if it's Ok to talk to Roman Catholics. Wink

Would need a byzantine emperor first...
Well let's get with it. The time to re-establish the Roman Empire is nigh... You see, it's really the Trukish government that is preventing our reunion.

Ironic.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,395


« Reply #322 on: April 09, 2012, 10:47:04 PM »

Absolutely. I think both sides desire reunion. The problem is that means different things for each side. The Catholics want the Orthodox to convert. The Orthodox want the Catholics to convert.
The sin of pride is alive and well on both sides.
Logged
William
Muted
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,354


« Reply #323 on: April 09, 2012, 11:30:06 PM »

Well, from what I've seen the RCC is willing to airbrush over most legitimate differences in theology as an "Eastern understanding of the same thing," so I guess you could call that more openness.
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
xariskai
юродивый/yurodivy
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,409


יהוה עזי ומגני


« Reply #324 on: April 09, 2012, 11:43:40 PM »

^ I suppose ya'll could an ecumenical council to detemine if it's Ok to talk to Roman Catholics. Wink

Would need a byzantine emperor first...
I nominate orthonorm.
Logged

Silly Stars
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,094


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #325 on: April 09, 2012, 11:46:11 PM »

^ I suppose ya'll could an ecumenical council to detemine if it's Ok to talk to Roman Catholics. Wink

Would need a byzantine emperor first...
I nominate orthonorm.

Let your voice be heard!
Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,121


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #326 on: April 10, 2012, 12:20:39 AM »

What about the idea that rather than one church being right or wrong, theyre just different?  I mean, over time as they spread into different regions of the world, isnt it natural that the Church would operate a little differently in different areas based on the different cultures?

Every time I talk to Catholic friends, Anglican friends or any non-protestant friend who leans 'western', my brain starts thinking.  Forgive me.  However, I do appreciate the discussion. 

Hi.
It contradicts Tradition, canons, saints etc. If we accept it, then we can throw everything in the garbage and become protestants.

If you are referring to the way the Church operates, then I guess the Church ceased to exist, what with how even in the Moscow Patriarchate alone, there have been a variety of modes of governance (even discounting the whole "Let's not have a Patriarch" thing, the Russian Church has waxed and waned in its centralization).
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
Samson4ll
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantium
Posts: 22



« Reply #327 on: April 10, 2012, 06:38:21 AM »

What about the idea that rather than one church being right or wrong, theyre just different?  I mean, over time as they spread into different regions of the world, isnt it natural that the Church would operate a little differently in different areas based on the different cultures?

Every time I talk to Catholic friends, Anglican friends or any non-protestant friend who leans 'western', my brain starts thinking.  Forgive me.  However, I do appreciate the discussion.  

Hi.
It contradicts Tradition, canons, saints etc. If we accept it, then we can throw everything in the garbage and become protestants.

If you are referring to the way the Church operates, then I guess the Church ceased to exist, what with how even in the Moscow Patriarchate alone, there have been a variety of modes of governance (even discounting the whole "Let's not have a Patriarch" thing, the Russian Church has waxed and waned in its centralization).

I'm not refering to that. I'm refering to your point that in the end, every church ir right and has some truth, none has the fullness of the truth, and we are just different. Well that goes against the canons, saints etc. It is not only a mode of governance.

« Last Edit: April 10, 2012, 06:39:30 AM by Samson4ll » Logged

"God created us without us: but he did not will to save us without us."
St. Augustine
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,144



« Reply #328 on: April 10, 2012, 11:20:34 AM »

Absolutely. I think both sides desire reunion. The problem is that means different things for each side. The Catholics want the Orthodox to convert. The Orthodox want the Catholics to convert.
The sin of pride is alive and well on both sides.

Definitely. I'm reminded of this oft-quoted statement: "neither Moscow nor Rome will give us unity."

(I suppose we might also add "nor Alexandria".)
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,565


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #329 on: April 10, 2012, 11:32:12 AM »

Absolutely. I think both sides desire reunion. The problem is that means different things for each side. The Catholics want the Orthodox to convert. The Orthodox want the Catholics to convert.
The sin of pride is alive and well on both sides.

Definitely. I'm reminded of this oft-quoted statement: "neither Moscow nor Rome will give us unity."

(I suppose we might also add "nor Alexandria".)

And I might add that a slight variation of this phrase of 'neither Rome nor Moscow' as being a basis for either unity or protection was why this phrase was the rallying cry of many 20th century former Greek Catholics who sought reception into canonical Orthodoxy through the Phanar rather than by way of Moscow.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2012, 11:33:33 AM by podkarpatska » Logged
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,478


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #330 on: April 10, 2012, 12:04:59 PM »

Absolutely. I think both sides desire reunion. The problem is that means different things for each side. The Catholics want the Orthodox to convert. The Orthodox want the Catholics to convert.
The sin of pride is alive and well on both sides.

Definitely. I'm reminded of this oft-quoted statement: "neither Moscow nor Rome will give us unity."

(I suppose we might also add "nor Alexandria".)
Then its up to Antioch! Smiley
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,249


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #331 on: April 10, 2012, 12:24:33 PM »

Absolutely. I think both sides desire reunion. The problem is that means different things for each side. The Catholics want the Orthodox to convert. The Orthodox want the Catholics to convert.
The sin of pride is alive and well on both sides.

Definitely. I'm reminded of this oft-quoted statement: "neither Moscow nor Rome will give us unity."

(I suppose we might also add "nor Alexandria".)
Then its up to Antioch! Smiley
Cool. We Catholics have several Patriarchs of Antioch. Smiley
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,478


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #332 on: April 10, 2012, 12:25:53 PM »

Absolutely. I think both sides desire reunion. The problem is that means different things for each side. The Catholics want the Orthodox to convert. The Orthodox want the Catholics to convert.
The sin of pride is alive and well on both sides.

Definitely. I'm reminded of this oft-quoted statement: "neither Moscow nor Rome will give us unity."

(I suppose we might also add "nor Alexandria".)
Then its up to Antioch! Smiley
Cool. We Catholics have several Patriarchs of Antioch. Smiley
Dont worry, we'll set them straight too.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,249


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #333 on: April 10, 2012, 12:26:33 PM »

Absolutely. I think both sides desire reunion. The problem is that means different things for each side. The Catholics want the Orthodox to convert. The Orthodox want the Catholics to convert.
The sin of pride is alive and well on both sides.

Definitely. I'm reminded of this oft-quoted statement: "neither Moscow nor Rome will give us unity."

(I suppose we might also add "nor Alexandria".)
Then its up to Antioch! Smiley
Cool. We Catholics have several Patriarchs of Antioch. Smiley
Dont worry, we'll set them straight too.

PP
Cheesy
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
JoeS2
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic by choice
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,134


St. Mark Defender of the true Faith (old CAF guy)


« Reply #334 on: April 10, 2012, 12:32:01 PM »

I have always thought that any discussion on unity needs to review and study the church in the early 1st millenium.  I like to refer to this time as the "default" position.  This default position being a time when there was relative unity even though there were small t traditional differences.  The distances involved, the lack of proper communications, etc. can all be dispelled today with our modern state of the art means of keeping in touch.  Why isnt there a study done to look at who we were back then and begin to discuss why things changed?  Or, has this already been done?  If so, then we are both in trouble.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2012, 12:32:43 PM by JoeS2 » Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,249


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #335 on: April 10, 2012, 12:33:45 PM »

I have always thought that any discussion on unity needs to review and study the church in the early 1st millenium.  I like to refer to this time as the "default" position.  This default position being a time when there was relative unity even though there were small t traditional differences.  The distances involved, the lack of proper communications, etc. can all be dispelled today with our modern state of the art means of keeping in touch.  Why isnt there a study done to look at who we were back then and begin to discuss why things changed?  Or, has this already been done?  If so, then we are both in trouble.
I think that the Revanna study was meant to do that very thing with regard to the Papacy. But no consensus was reached. Contrary to what EOs think, the matter is not so clear cut.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Samson4ll
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantium
Posts: 22



« Reply #336 on: April 10, 2012, 12:34:30 PM »

Quote
Or, has this already been done?  If so, then we are both in trouble.

I guess you already answered  Grin
Logged

"God created us without us: but he did not will to save us without us."
St. Augustine
JoeS2
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic by choice
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,134


St. Mark Defender of the true Faith (old CAF guy)


« Reply #337 on: April 10, 2012, 12:35:27 PM »

I have always thought that any discussion on unity needs to review and study the church in the early 1st millenium.  I like to refer to this time as the "default" position.  This default position being a time when there was relative unity even though there were small t traditional differences.  The distances involved, the lack of proper communications, etc. can all be dispelled today with our modern state of the art means of keeping in touch.  Why isnt there a study done to look at who we were back then and begin to discuss why things changed?  Or, has this already been done?  If so, then we are both in trouble.
I think that the Revanna study was meant to do that very thing with regard to the Papacy. But no consensus was reached. Contrary to what EOs think, the matter is not so clear cut.

I was referring to MODERN studies as opposed to studies during the Revanna meetings.
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,249


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #338 on: April 10, 2012, 12:38:26 PM »

I have always thought that any discussion on unity needs to review and study the church in the early 1st millenium.  I like to refer to this time as the "default" position.  This default position being a time when there was relative unity even though there were small t traditional differences.  The distances involved, the lack of proper communications, etc. can all be dispelled today with our modern state of the art means of keeping in touch.  Why isnt there a study done to look at who we were back then and begin to discuss why things changed?  Or, has this already been done?  If so, then we are both in trouble.
I think that the Revanna study was meant to do that very thing with regard to the Papacy. But no consensus was reached. Contrary to what EOs think, the matter is not so clear cut.

I was referring to MODERN studies as opposed to studies during the Revanna meetings.
Fair enough. But do you think that such a study would really do any good? I think most Catholics would see the study through "Papal-colored glasses" and most Orthodox would view the study through "anti-papal colored glasses". Honestly, the only way I can see unity happening is by means of a miracle of the Holy Spirit.... Or by means of persecution. If there were to be a substantial world-wide persecution of Christians, many would simply choose not to participate in the schism (as is the case in some places in the middle east were intercommunion is the norm).
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
JoeS2
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic by choice
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,134


St. Mark Defender of the true Faith (old CAF guy)


« Reply #339 on: April 10, 2012, 03:38:22 PM »


[/quote]
Fair enough. But do you think that such a study would really do any good? I think most Catholics would see the study through "Papal-colored glasses" and most Orthodox would view the study through "anti-papal colored glasses". Honestly, the only way I can see unity happening is by means of a miracle of the Holy Spirit.... Or by means of persecution. If there were to be a substantial world-wide persecution of Christians, many would simply choose not to participate in the schism (as is the case in some places in the middle east were intercommunion is the norm).
[/quote]

Then this whole excercise in unity is mute and only good for discussing over the occassional coffee.   
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,249


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #340 on: April 10, 2012, 03:41:43 PM »


Fair enough. But do you think that such a study would really do any good? I think most Catholics would see the study through "Papal-colored glasses" and most Orthodox would view the study through "anti-papal colored glasses". Honestly, the only way I can see unity happening is by means of a miracle of the Holy Spirit.... Or by means of persecution. If there were to be a substantial world-wide persecution of Christians, many would simply choose not to participate in the schism (as is the case in some places in the middle east were intercommunion is the norm).
[/quote]

Then this whole excercise in unity is mute and only good for discussing over the occassional coffee.   
[/quote]
To which part of my post are you responding? The fact that we can't seem to come to Fathers without our preconceived ideas or the fact that some middle-eastern Christians choose not to participate in the schism?
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
JoeS2
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic by choice
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,134


St. Mark Defender of the true Faith (old CAF guy)


« Reply #341 on: April 10, 2012, 03:54:33 PM »


To which part of my post are you responding? The fact that we can't seem to come to Fathers without our preconceived ideas or the fact that some middle-eastern Christians choose not to participate in the schism?
[/quote]

No, not exactly, it was an idea of: How did we exist pre-schism inspite of our "small T" traditions?  Granted the split didnt happen in one event but over the course of time.  Im sure there were many non religious factors involved: distances, language differences, customs, cultural, and ethnicity issues, and the like which may have factored into what we  have today.  As a former RC I have always had issues with the Pope's claim of Infallibility and Supremacy.  And I know the RCC's argument that they werent coming up with new innovations, but " only reasserting what was already accepted in the western church".  I think this was a mistake to make this dogma, and I think this is where the problem lies.  But this is only me thinking. 
Logged
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,144



« Reply #342 on: April 10, 2012, 06:18:35 PM »

Then this whole excercise in unity is mute

Many discussions are, since the invention of internet forums.

 Cheesy
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,144



« Reply #343 on: April 10, 2012, 06:22:41 PM »

No, not exactly, it was an idea of: How did we exist pre-schism inspite of our "small T" traditions?  Granted the split didnt happen in one event but over the course of time.  Im sure there were many non religious factors involved: distances, language differences, customs, cultural, and ethnicity issues, and the like which may have factored into what we  have today.  As a former RC I have always had issues with the Pope's claim of Infallibility and Supremacy.  And I know the RCC's argument that they werent coming up with new innovations, but " only reasserting what was already accepted in the western church".  I think this was a mistake to make this dogma, and I think this is where the problem lies.  But this is only me thinking. 

Actually, even Cardinal Newman said that dogmatizing Papal Infallibility had been a very bad idea -- even though he believed it. For what it's worth.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Samson4ll
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantium
Posts: 22



« Reply #344 on: April 10, 2012, 07:53:45 PM »

No, not exactly, it was an idea of: How did we exist pre-schism inspite of our "small T" traditions?  Granted the split didnt happen in one event but over the course of time.  Im sure there were many non religious factors involved: distances, language differences, customs, cultural, and ethnicity issues, and the like which may have factored into what we  have today.  As a former RC I have always had issues with the Pope's claim of Infallibility and Supremacy.  And I know the RCC's argument that they werent coming up with new innovations, but " only reasserting what was already accepted in the western church".  I think this was a mistake to make this dogma, and I think this is where the problem lies.  But this is only me thinking. 

Actually, even Cardinal Newman said that dogmatizing Papal Infallibility had been a very bad idea -- even though he believed it. For what it's worth.

Cardinal Newman was wrong on this. The dogmatization of Papal Infallibility in fact came after centuries of debates between Gallicans and ultramontanes. The dogmatization ended all the debates. And it is the logical conclucion of the Papacy. Why the need for a visible and perpetual head to the Church if this head is not infallible in some way?
Logged

"God created us without us: but he did not will to save us without us."
St. Augustine
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,144



« Reply #345 on: April 10, 2012, 09:38:16 PM »

No, not exactly, it was an idea of: How did we exist pre-schism inspite of our "small T" traditions?  Granted the split didnt happen in one event but over the course of time.  Im sure there were many non religious factors involved: distances, language differences, customs, cultural, and ethnicity issues, and the like which may have factored into what we  have today.  As a former RC I have always had issues with the Pope's claim of Infallibility and Supremacy.  And I know the RCC's argument that they werent coming up with new innovations, but " only reasserting what was already accepted in the western church".  I think this was a mistake to make this dogma, and I think this is where the problem lies.  But this is only me thinking. 

Actually, even Cardinal Newman said that dogmatizing Papal Infallibility had been a very bad idea -- even though he believed it. For what it's worth.

Cardinal Newman was wrong on this. The dogmatization of Papal Infallibility in fact came after centuries of debates between Gallicans and ultramontanes. The dogmatization ended all the debates. And it is the logical conclucion of the Papacy. Why the need for a visible and perpetual head to the Church if this head is not infallible in some way?

He is, but that fact should not have been dogmatized -- at least that's what Newman thought.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Samson4ll
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantium
Posts: 22



« Reply #346 on: April 11, 2012, 06:21:16 AM »

No, not exactly, it was an idea of: How did we exist pre-schism inspite of our "small T" traditions?  Granted the split didnt happen in one event but over the course of time.  Im sure there were many non religious factors involved: distances, language differences, customs, cultural, and ethnicity issues, and the like which may have factored into what we  have today.  As a former RC I have always had issues with the Pope's claim of Infallibility and Supremacy.  And I know the RCC's argument that they werent coming up with new innovations, but " only reasserting what was already accepted in the western church".  I think this was a mistake to make this dogma, and I think this is where the problem lies.  But this is only me thinking. 

Actually, even Cardinal Newman said that dogmatizing Papal Infallibility had been a very bad idea -- even though he believed it. For what it's worth.

Cardinal Newman was wrong on this. The dogmatization of Papal Infallibility in fact came after centuries of debates between Gallicans and ultramontanes. The dogmatization ended all the debates. And it is the logical conclucion of the Papacy. Why the need for a visible and perpetual head to the Church if this head is not infallible in some way?

He is, but that fact should not have been dogmatized -- at least that's what Newman thought.

It had to e dogmatized to end the debates among the faithfull of the Church.
Logged

"God created us without us: but he did not will to save us without us."
St. Augustine
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,144



« Reply #347 on: April 11, 2012, 10:05:44 AM »

No, not exactly, it was an idea of: How did we exist pre-schism inspite of our "small T" traditions?  Granted the split didnt happen in one event but over the course of time.  Im sure there were many non religious factors involved: distances, language differences, customs, cultural, and ethnicity issues, and the like which may have factored into what we  have today.  As a former RC I have always had issues with the Pope's claim of Infallibility and Supremacy.  And I know the RCC's argument that they werent coming up with new innovations, but " only reasserting what was already accepted in the western church".  I think this was a mistake to make this dogma, and I think this is where the problem lies.  But this is only me thinking. 

Actually, even Cardinal Newman said that dogmatizing Papal Infallibility had been a very bad idea -- even though he believed it. For what it's worth.

Cardinal Newman was wrong on this. The dogmatization of Papal Infallibility in fact came after centuries of debates between Gallicans and ultramontanes. The dogmatization ended all the debates. And it is the logical conclucion of the Papacy. Why the need for a visible and perpetual head to the Church if this head is not infallible in some way?

He is, but that fact should not have been dogmatized -- at least that's what Newman thought.

It had to e dogmatized to end the debates among the faithfull of the Church.

Saying it need to be dogmatized to end the debate isn't presenting an argument. That's like if I said I need to go to the store, and you asked why, and I replied "In order to get there."
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,565


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #348 on: April 11, 2012, 10:16:21 AM »

No, not exactly, it was an idea of: How did we exist pre-schism inspite of our "small T" traditions?  Granted the split didnt happen in one event but over the course of time.  Im sure there were many non religious factors involved: distances, language differences, customs, cultural, and ethnicity issues, and the like which may have factored into what we  have today.  As a former RC I have always had issues with the Pope's claim of Infallibility and Supremacy.  And I know the RCC's argument that they werent coming up with new innovations, but " only reasserting what was already accepted in the western church".  I think this was a mistake to make this dogma, and I think this is where the problem lies.  But this is only me thinking.  

Actually, even Cardinal Newman said that dogmatizing Papal Infallibility had been a very bad idea -- even though he believed it. For what it's worth.

Cardinal Newman was wrong on this. The dogmatization of Papal Infallibility in fact came after centuries of debates between Gallicans and ultramontanes. The dogmatization ended all the debates. And it is the logical conclucion of the Papacy. Why the need for a visible and perpetual head to the Church if this head is not infallible in some way?

I would suggest that Cardinal Newman was correct.

History tells us that the selection of Popes and Patriarchs as well as Bishops and Kings has not always been conducted in a manner in which a man best suited for the task assumes the throne. By dogmatizing the teachings regarding the papacy, the Roman Church is at risk of collapse from within should a man of questionable moral or political character assume the papal  throne. It has happened in the past - who is to say that it can not happen again?

If a Patriarch of say, Constantinople or Moscow were to be viewed as a morally compromised or failed man, his church could (albeit with great difficulty and certainly with much harm befalling the Church) rid themselves of him and his regime and explain it away over time. The issues of supremacy, infallibility and the role of the Pope as Christ's Vicar on earth would make dealing with such a horrible situation all the more difficult - if not impossible.

While the modern likelihood of a pope like a Borgia or Medici assuming the papal throne is remote, we should not delude ourselves as in our recent past we have seen princes of that church in important sees fall because of either their political insensitivity or moral blindness on certain issues. The psychic harm and spiritual damage that this has caused remains to be calculated. Imagine if a Pope were in similar straits.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 10:17:29 AM by podkarpatska » Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #349 on: April 11, 2012, 10:57:08 AM »

No, not exactly, it was an idea of: How did we exist pre-schism inspite of our "small T" traditions?  Granted the split didnt happen in one event but over the course of time.  Im sure there were many non religious factors involved: distances, language differences, customs, cultural, and ethnicity issues, and the like which may have factored into what we  have today.  As a former RC I have always had issues with the Pope's claim of Infallibility and Supremacy.  And I know the RCC's argument that they werent coming up with new innovations, but " only reasserting what was already accepted in the western church".  I think this was a mistake to make this dogma, and I think this is where the problem lies.  But this is only me thinking.  

Actually, even Cardinal Newman said that dogmatizing Papal Infallibility had been a very bad idea -- even though he believed it. For what it's worth.

Cardinal Newman was wrong on this. The dogmatization of Papal Infallibility in fact came after centuries of debates between Gallicans and ultramontanes. The dogmatization ended all the debates. And it is the logical conclucion of the Papacy. Why the need for a visible and perpetual head to the Church if this head is not infallible in some way?

I would suggest that Cardinal Newman was correct.

History tells us that the selection of Popes and Patriarchs as well as Bishops and Kings has not always been conducted in a manner in which a man best suited for the task assumes the throne. By dogmatizing the teachings regarding the papacy, the Roman Church is at risk of collapse from within should a man of questionable moral or political character assume the papal  throne. It has happened in the past - who is to say that it can not happen again?

If a Patriarch of say, Constantinople or Moscow were to be viewed as a morally compromised or failed man, his church could (albeit with great difficulty and certainly with much harm befalling the Church) rid themselves of him and his regime and explain it away over time. The issues of supremacy, infallibility and the role of the Pope as Christ's Vicar on earth would make dealing with such a horrible situation all the more difficult - if not impossible.

While the modern likelihood of a pope like a Borgia or Medici assuming the papal throne is remote, we should not delude ourselves as in our recent past we have seen princes of that church in important sees fall because of either their political insensitivity or moral blindness on certain issues. The psychic harm and spiritual damage that this has caused remains to be calculated. Imagine if a Pope were in similar straits.

Apparently you not only do not believe in papal doctrine but you do not believe that the Holy Spirit operates in the election of the pope.

Interestin'.... Smiley
Logged

J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,172


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #350 on: April 11, 2012, 11:18:01 AM »

No, not exactly, it was an idea of: How did we exist pre-schism inspite of our "small T" traditions?  Granted the split didnt happen in one event but over the course of time.  Im sure there were many non religious factors involved: distances, language differences, customs, cultural, and ethnicity issues, and the like which may have factored into what we  have today.  As a former RC I have always had issues with the Pope's claim of Infallibility and Supremacy.  And I know the RCC's argument that they werent coming up with new innovations, but " only reasserting what was already accepted in the western church".  I think this was a mistake to make this dogma, and I think this is where the problem lies.  But this is only me thinking.  

Actually, even Cardinal Newman said that dogmatizing Papal Infallibility had been a very bad idea -- even though he believed it. For what it's worth.

Cardinal Newman was wrong on this. The dogmatization of Papal Infallibility in fact came after centuries of debates between Gallicans and ultramontanes. The dogmatization ended all the debates. And it is the logical conclucion of the Papacy. Why the need for a visible and perpetual head to the Church if this head is not infallible in some way?

I would suggest that Cardinal Newman was correct.

History tells us that the selection of Popes and Patriarchs as well as Bishops and Kings has not always been conducted in a manner in which a man best suited for the task assumes the throne. By dogmatizing the teachings regarding the papacy, the Roman Church is at risk of collapse from within should a man of questionable moral or political character assume the papal  throne. It has happened in the past - who is to say that it can not happen again?

If a Patriarch of say, Constantinople or Moscow were to be viewed as a morally compromised or failed man, his church could (albeit with great difficulty and certainly with much harm befalling the Church) rid themselves of him and his regime and explain it away over time. The issues of supremacy, infallibility and the role of the Pope as Christ's Vicar on earth would make dealing with such a horrible situation all the more difficult - if not impossible.

While the modern likelihood of a pope like a Borgia or Medici assuming the papal throne is remote, we should not delude ourselves as in our recent past we have seen princes of that church in important sees fall because of either their political insensitivity or moral blindness on certain issues. The psychic harm and spiritual damage that this has caused remains to be calculated. Imagine if a Pope were in similar straits.

Apparently you not only do not believe in papal doctrine but you do not believe that the Holy Spirit operates in the election of the pope.

Interestin'.... Smiley

Dare I suggest that if podkarpatska believed in papal doctrine and that the Holy Spirit operates in the election of the pope, he *might* have to start thinking about changing his allegiance from Orthodoxy to Catholicism  Shocked  laugh?  Heck, I'd welcome him with open arms!!  Wink
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,478


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #351 on: April 11, 2012, 11:21:04 AM »

Quote
Apparently you not only do not believe in papal doctrine but you do not believe that the Holy Spirit operates in the election of the pope.

Interestin'....
It depends on which era to which you refer. Before or after the invention of infallibility and supremacy.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,249


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #352 on: April 11, 2012, 11:26:43 AM »

No, not exactly, it was an idea of: How did we exist pre-schism inspite of our "small T" traditions?  Granted the split didnt happen in one event but over the course of time.  Im sure there were many non religious factors involved: distances, language differences, customs, cultural, and ethnicity issues, and the like which may have factored into what we  have today.  As a former RC I have always had issues with the Pope's claim of Infallibility and Supremacy.  And I know the RCC's argument that they werent coming up with new innovations, but " only reasserting what was already accepted in the western church".  I think this was a mistake to make this dogma, and I think this is where the problem lies.  But this is only me thinking.  

Actually, even Cardinal Newman said that dogmatizing Papal Infallibility had been a very bad idea -- even though he believed it. For what it's worth.

Cardinal Newman was wrong on this. The dogmatization of Papal Infallibility in fact came after centuries of debates between Gallicans and ultramontanes. The dogmatization ended all the debates. And it is the logical conclucion of the Papacy. Why the need for a visible and perpetual head to the Church if this head is not infallible in some way?

I would suggest that Cardinal Newman was correct.

History tells us that the selection of Popes and Patriarchs as well as Bishops and Kings has not always been conducted in a manner in which a man best suited for the task assumes the throne. By dogmatizing the teachings regarding the papacy, the Roman Church is at risk of collapse from within should a man of questionable moral or political character assume the papal  throne. It has happened in the past - who is to say that it can not happen again?

If a Patriarch of say, Constantinople or Moscow were to be viewed as a morally compromised or failed man, his church could (albeit with great difficulty and certainly with much harm befalling the Church) rid themselves of him and his regime and explain it away over time. The issues of supremacy, infallibility and the role of the Pope as Christ's Vicar on earth would make dealing with such a horrible situation all the more difficult - if not impossible.

While the modern likelihood of a pope like a Borgia or Medici assuming the papal throne is remote, we should not delude ourselves as in our recent past we have seen princes of that church in important sees fall because of either their political insensitivity or moral blindness on certain issues. The psychic harm and spiritual damage that this has caused remains to be calculated. Imagine if a Pope were in similar straits.

Apparently you not only do not believe in papal doctrine but you do not believe that the Holy Spirit operates in the election of the pope.

Interestin'.... Smiley

Dare I suggest that if podkarpatska believed in papal doctrine and that the Holy Spirit operates in the election of the pope, he *might* have to start thinking about changing his allegiance from Orthodoxy to Catholicism  Shocked  laugh?  Heck, I'd welcome him with open arms!!  Wink
Podkarpatska is Eastern Orthodox through and through. No reason to suspect a converstion. But he is also very charitable towards Roman Catholics and, while he may disagree with us on several points, he recognizes us as brothers and sisters in Christ.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,172


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #353 on: April 11, 2012, 11:30:26 AM »

No, not exactly, it was an idea of: How did we exist pre-schism inspite of our "small T" traditions?  Granted the split didnt happen in one event but over the course of time.  Im sure there were many non religious factors involved: distances, language differences, customs, cultural, and ethnicity issues, and the like which may have factored into what we  have today.  As a former RC I have always had issues with the Pope's claim of Infallibility and Supremacy.  And I know the RCC's argument that they werent coming up with new innovations, but " only reasserting what was already accepted in the western church".  I think this was a mistake to make this dogma, and I think this is where the problem lies.  But this is only me thinking.  

Actually, even Cardinal Newman said that dogmatizing Papal Infallibility had been a very bad idea -- even though he believed it. For what it's worth.

Cardinal Newman was wrong on this. The dogmatization of Papal Infallibility in fact came after centuries of debates between Gallicans and ultramontanes. The dogmatization ended all the debates. And it is the logical conclucion of the Papacy. Why the need for a visible and perpetual head to the Church if this head is not infallible in some way?

I would suggest that Cardinal Newman was correct.

History tells us that the selection of Popes and Patriarchs as well as Bishops and Kings has not always been conducted in a manner in which a man best suited for the task assumes the throne. By dogmatizing the teachings regarding the papacy, the Roman Church is at risk of collapse from within should a man of questionable moral or political character assume the papal  throne. It has happened in the past - who is to say that it can not happen again?

If a Patriarch of say, Constantinople or Moscow were to be viewed as a morally compromised or failed man, his church could (albeit with great difficulty and certainly with much harm befalling the Church) rid themselves of him and his regime and explain it away over time. The issues of supremacy, infallibility and the role of the Pope as Christ's Vicar on earth would make dealing with such a horrible situation all the more difficult - if not impossible.

While the modern likelihood of a pope like a Borgia or Medici assuming the papal throne is remote, we should not delude ourselves as in our recent past we have seen princes of that church in important sees fall because of either their political insensitivity or moral blindness on certain issues. The psychic harm and spiritual damage that this has caused remains to be calculated. Imagine if a Pope were in similar straits.

Apparently you not only do not believe in papal doctrine but you do not believe that the Holy Spirit operates in the election of the pope.

Interestin'.... Smiley

Dare I suggest that if podkarpatska believed in papal doctrine and that the Holy Spirit operates in the election of the pope, he *might* have to start thinking about changing his allegiance from Orthodoxy to Catholicism  Shocked  laugh?  Heck, I'd welcome him with open arms!!  Wink
Podkarpatska is Eastern Orthodox through and through. No reason to suspect a converstion. But he is also very charitable towards Roman Catholics and, while he may disagree with us on several points, he recognizes us as brothers and sisters in Christ.

Yes, I know.  I was, after all, kidding!  Guess I didn't use the right emoticons  Cry.  He happens to be one of the Orthodox here that I most highly respect, fwiw.  I consider him truly a brother in Christ.  As for him converting, it is highly unlikely, but stranger things have happened  Wink.
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,249


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #354 on: April 11, 2012, 11:32:29 AM »

No, not exactly, it was an idea of: How did we exist pre-schism inspite of our "small T" traditions?  Granted the split didnt happen in one event but over the course of time.  Im sure there were many non religious factors involved: distances, language differences, customs, cultural, and ethnicity issues, and the like which may have factored into what we  have today.  As a former RC I have always had issues with the Pope's claim of Infallibility and Supremacy.  And I know the RCC's argument that they werent coming up with new innovations, but " only reasserting what was already accepted in the western church".  I think this was a mistake to make this dogma, and I think this is where the problem lies.  But this is only me thinking.  

Actually, even Cardinal Newman said that dogmatizing Papal Infallibility had been a very bad idea -- even though he believed it. For what it's worth.

Cardinal Newman was wrong on this. The dogmatization of Papal Infallibility in fact came after centuries of debates between Gallicans and ultramontanes. The dogmatization ended all the debates. And it is the logical conclucion of the Papacy. Why the need for a visible and perpetual head to the Church if this head is not infallible in some way?

I would suggest that Cardinal Newman was correct.

History tells us that the selection of Popes and Patriarchs as well as Bishops and Kings has not always been conducted in a manner in which a man best suited for the task assumes the throne. By dogmatizing the teachings regarding the papacy, the Roman Church is at risk of collapse from within should a man of questionable moral or political character assume the papal  throne. It has happened in the past - who is to say that it can not happen again?

If a Patriarch of say, Constantinople or Moscow were to be viewed as a morally compromised or failed man, his church could (albeit with great difficulty and certainly with much harm befalling the Church) rid themselves of him and his regime and explain it away over time. The issues of supremacy, infallibility and the role of the Pope as Christ's Vicar on earth would make dealing with such a horrible situation all the more difficult - if not impossible.

While the modern likelihood of a pope like a Borgia or Medici assuming the papal throne is remote, we should not delude ourselves as in our recent past we have seen princes of that church in important sees fall because of either their political insensitivity or moral blindness on certain issues. The psychic harm and spiritual damage that this has caused remains to be calculated. Imagine if a Pope were in similar straits.

Apparently you not only do not believe in papal doctrine but you do not believe that the Holy Spirit operates in the election of the pope.

Interestin'.... Smiley

Dare I suggest that if podkarpatska believed in papal doctrine and that the Holy Spirit operates in the election of the pope, he *might* have to start thinking about changing his allegiance from Orthodoxy to Catholicism  Shocked  laugh?  Heck, I'd welcome him with open arms!!  Wink
Podkarpatska is Eastern Orthodox through and through. No reason to suspect a converstion. But he is also very charitable towards Roman Catholics and, while he may disagree with us on several points, he recognizes us as brothers and sisters in Christ.

Yes, I know.  I was, after all, kidding!  Guess I didn't use the right emoticons  Cry.  He happens to be one of the Orthodox here that I most highly respect, fwiw.  I consider him truly a brother in Christ.  As for him converting, it is highly unlikely, but stranger things have happened  Wink.
Agreed on all points. I wish that I could be as charitable towards ecumenical dialogue as Podkarpatska is. Smiley I'm working on it.  Cheesy
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #355 on: April 11, 2012, 11:33:38 AM »

Quote
Apparently you not only do not believe in papal doctrine but you do not believe that the Holy Spirit operates in the election of the pope.

Interestin'....
It depends on which era to which you refer. Before or after the invention of infallibility and supremacy.

PP

The Holy Spirit operates in all cases since Peter's declaration that Jesus was the Christ the Son of the Living God.

Now you may not accept the teaching of either primacy or of infallibility but you'd be better off if you tried to reconcile the teaching as the Catholic Church intends it, rather than just shutting your eyes and saying "nononononononononono"..... Smiley

Blessed Great and Holy Week!

I will be joining you in spirit and liturgically over the next few days.  It is a great privilege to be allowed to live in the space between two traditions.  Wink

M.
Logged

Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,249


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #356 on: April 11, 2012, 11:35:57 AM »

Quote
Apparently you not only do not believe in papal doctrine but you do not believe that the Holy Spirit operates in the election of the pope.

Interestin'....
It depends on which era to which you refer. Before or after the invention of infallibility and supremacy.

PP

The Holy Spirit operates in all cases since Peter's declaration that Jesus was the Christ the Son of the Living God.

Now you may not accept the teaching of either primacy or of infallibility but you'd be better off if you tried to reconcile the teaching as the Catholic Church intends it, rather than just shutting your eyes and saying "nononononononononono"..... Smiley

Blessed Great and Holy Week!

I will be joining you in spirit and liturgically over the next few days.  It is a great privilege to be allowed to live in the space between two traditions.  Wink

M.
Actually, living in two traditions is most untenable this week. How can you be celebrating the resurrection/pascha this week, and also fasting for Holy Week? Feasting and Fasting at the same time? I think you are great Maria.  Grin

BTW, this is all the more reason why we should work towards all Christians being on the same calendar.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 11:37:42 AM by Papist » Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,172


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #357 on: April 11, 2012, 11:39:08 AM »

Quote
Apparently you not only do not believe in papal doctrine but you do not believe that the Holy Spirit operates in the election of the pope.

Interestin'....
It depends on which era to which you refer. Before or after the invention of infallibility and supremacy.

PP

The Holy Spirit operates in all cases since Peter's declaration that Jesus was the Christ the Son of the Living God.

Now you may not accept the teaching of either primacy or of infallibility but you'd be better off if you tried to reconcile the teaching as the Catholic Church intends it, rather than just shutting your eyes and saying "nononononononononono"..... Smiley

Blessed Great and Holy Week!

I will be joining you in spirit and liturgically over the next few days.  It is a great privilege to be allowed to live in the space between two traditions.  Wink

M.
Actually, living in two traditions is most untenable this week. How can you be celebrating the resurrection/pascha this week, and also fasting for Holy Week? Feasting and Fasting at the same time? I think you are great Maria.  Grin

Maybe there's 2 of her  Grin Grin!
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,565


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #358 on: April 11, 2012, 11:44:59 AM »

I have no intention of 'converting' as the family has had some degree of experience sitting on that side of the fence and, well, it really didn't work out all that well. Besides, if they hadn't done what they did, I likely wouldn't be here to 'pontificate' on these matters!  Wink

Seriously, on the matter of the Holy Spirit guiding the selection of Bishops. Of course we have to believe this to be the case - be we Roman or Orthodox. HOWEVER - men are subject to temptation and human failings - be they the most humble of monks or peasants or the most exalted of Kings and Princes. As Orthodox and Roman Catholics we each reject predestination and having been elected to the papal throne or elected Bishop of the most impoverished of sees in another continent - a man may succumb to temptation.

By vesting a man with the presumptive power and authority that Rome has placed in the persona of a Pope, it seems to me (and to history for that matter) that when (not if) a Pope succumbs to the temptations of power or the flesh there is a problem in reconciling Roman dogma post Vatican 1 with the reality of the aftermath of such a hypothetical fall from grace. I say this not with some gleeful anticipation of a papal fall from grace - far from that as the damage to Faith (not The Faith) as a whole would be too much for many Christians to bear in our secular times.

Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #359 on: April 11, 2012, 11:51:31 AM »

Quote
Apparently you not only do not believe in papal doctrine but you do not believe that the Holy Spirit operates in the election of the pope.

Interestin'....
It depends on which era to which you refer. Before or after the invention of infallibility and supremacy.

PP

The Holy Spirit operates in all cases since Peter's declaration that Jesus was the Christ the Son of the Living God.

Now you may not accept the teaching of either primacy or of infallibility but you'd be better off if you tried to reconcile the teaching as the Catholic Church intends it, rather than just shutting your eyes and saying "nononononononononono"..... Smiley

Blessed Great and Holy Week!

I will be joining you in spirit and liturgically over the next few days.  It is a great privilege to be allowed to live in the space between two traditions.  Wink

M.
Actually, living in two traditions is most untenable this week. How can you be celebrating the resurrection/pascha this week, and also fasting for Holy Week? Feasting and Fasting at the same time? I think you are great Maria.  Grin

BTW, this is all the more reason why we should work towards all Christians being on the same calendar.

I've been keeping the Pasch with Orthodoxy for nearly 15 years.
Logged

Tags:
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 »   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.192 seconds with 72 queries.