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Author Topic: Which church is more open to reuniting??  (Read 14968 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: April 03, 2012, 09:00:17 AM »

Is it just me, or does it seem like the RC church is more open to the idea of reuniting than the OC?

I want more than anything (and Im sure many of you do too) for the Church to reunite. 

I was talking to a buddy of mine who grew up protestant with me and later converted to RC.  He was a lot like I currently am and took nearly 3 years to decide between the RC and the OC.  He eventually went with the RC and when I asked why, he said it was largely because they were more open to the idea of reuniting which is very important to him. (note: thats not the ONLY reason. He does think the RC church is 'right')

Is it true that the RC is more open to talks of reuniting?
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« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2012, 09:03:42 AM »

I want more than anything (and Im sure many of you do too) for the Church to reunite. 
I would think that following God would take precedence over "uniting".
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« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2012, 09:40:13 AM »

Yes, the RCC is very open to their idea of reunification with the East. They would love to subsume us, hand out a few red hats and then be done with us.

We have no interest in that.
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« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2012, 09:55:55 AM »

A loaded question. I think giving an answer may be 'fun' for polemicists and those more argumentative than I, but I suspect that the correct answer from serious representatives of both the RCC and the Orthodox  would be that if that is the will of God, so be it, but determining if that were ever to be the case is at the crux of the divide.
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« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2012, 10:22:28 AM »

Is it just me, or does it seem like the RC church is more open to the idea of reuniting than the OC?

I want more than anything (and Im sure many of you do too) for the Church to reunite. 

I was talking to a buddy of mine who grew up protestant with me and later converted to RC.  He was a lot like I currently am and took nearly 3 years to decide between the RC and the OC.  He eventually went with the RC and when I asked why, he said it was largely because they were more open to the idea of reuniting which is very important to him. (note: thats not the ONLY reason. He does think the RC church is 'right')

Is it true that the RC is more open to talks of reuniting?

Good question. I'm looking forward to hearing different people's opinions, but basically I would say that both sides can be pretty stubborn.
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« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2012, 10:27:16 AM »

Purely IMHO, of course, so take it for what it's worth: one reason that the RCC may seem to be more open to reuniting is that I have noticed a certain - how shall I put it? - lack of understanding of the very real issues that divide us. Nowadays it's not because the Orthodox are still mad at the RCs (though some people may be of course) but because we Orthodox don't subscribe to the branch or lung theory. We are two different churches, with huge theological issues in between. Most Catholics I discuss this with (huge generalization, YMMV of course) seem to think that it's just a matter of a few petty details, and all the Orthodox need to do is get over themselves so that we can all be together.
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« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2012, 10:41:21 AM »

Purely IMHO, of course, so take it for what it's worth: one reason that the RCC may seem to be more open to reuniting is that I have noticed a certain - how shall I put it? - lack of understanding of the very real issues that divide us. Nowadays it's not because the Orthodox are still mad at the RCs (though some people may be of course) but because we Orthodox don't subscribe to the branch or lung theory. We are two different churches, with huge theological issues in between. Most Catholics I discuss this with (huge generalization, YMMV of course) seem to think that it's just a matter of a few petty details, and all the Orthodox need to do is get over themselves so that we can all be together.

The problem is that being 'mad' is still part of the human equation for all of us.

Standing on one side of a crevice, one might see a way across that may appear either more or less significant than the same route appears from the other side - if it appears to the naked eye at all!

My own experience with these matters and my knowledge of the discussions that have occurred among us over the past fifty or so years tells me that the differences among us may not be as 'huge' as they may appear to many of us, but neither as they 'petty' as many less informed RCC's (including many clergy) may view them. Frankly, there is much more that both the RCC and the Orthodox have to do to 'get over themselves' in order for us to see the other in a better light. You remember, the parable about the splinter and the beam.

In real estate they say, 'location, location, location.' In politics they say 'its the economy, stupid.' As to our differences, it always has been and still is: 'the papacy, the papacy, the papacy.' If you can ever resolve that, then you can start talking about and better understand what remaining differences are stumbling blocks and which are not.
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« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2012, 10:50:28 AM »

Purely IMHO, of course, so take it for what it's worth: one reason that the RCC may seem to be more open to reuniting is that I have noticed a certain - how shall I put it? - lack of understanding of the very real issues that divide us. Nowadays it's not because the Orthodox are still mad at the RCs (though some people may be of course) but because we Orthodox don't subscribe to the branch or lung theory. We are two different churches, with huge theological issues in between. Most Catholics I discuss this with (huge generalization, YMMV of course) seem to think that it's just a matter of a few petty details, and all the Orthodox need to do is get over themselves so that we can all be together.

+1

Reunion is about doctrinal agreement.
The RC appears more 'open' to reuniting because they focus on only one doctrinal point--if Orthodox were willing to accept Papal conceptions of primacy, then reunion could  occur. Whereas Orthodoxy focuses on not just Papal primacy but on all the other innovations that have flowed from it and would need to be rolled back in the event of a reunion.

The reality is, the RC is no more open to giving up on their key doctrinal issue than Orthodox are--and aren't actually conceding anything by focusing on the one while making conciliatory noises about all the others. Since accepting the one would mean accepting Rome's authority to reimpose all the others later based on Rome's unilateral authority.
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« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2012, 10:50:54 AM »

Yes, the RCC is very open to their idea of reunification with the East. They would love to subsume us, hand out a few red hats and then be done with us.

We have no interest in that.

Completely agreed.

While we should all desire unity, we shouldn't ignore serious obstacles and allow compromise to the faith.  There are worse things than disunity.  While it's regrettable that so many remain outside of the Church, the Church is not itself divided or lacking.  Seek unity, but on the right terms.  

Timon, in my opinion your friend should have made his decision on whether he believed the Roman or Orthodox Church is the true Church of our Lord, not on his agreement with any respective position.
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« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2012, 10:55:01 AM »

It just seems to me that maybe there should be more of an effort on both sides to discuss reuniting.  And maybe this is happening after all.  I dont really keep up with who is talking to who within the Church, so hopefully people are making an effort.  If there are any articles or examples I could read of that happening, let me know.

From my perspective, Im kind of an outsider.  I know I cant be a protestant anymore and I have looked at both Churches for a while now.  I have had pretty convincing discussions about which church is "right" with people from both parties.  Ive always leaned Orthodoxy, but theres still a small part of me that isnt 100% sure.  I think this is why I have such a great desire for the Church to reunite.  It would make this decision so much easier.
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« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2012, 10:58:50 AM »

It just seems to me that maybe there should be more of an effort on both sides to discuss reuniting.  And maybe this is happening after all.  I dont really keep up with who is talking to who within the Church, so hopefully people are making an effort.  If there are any articles or examples I could read of that happening, let me know.

From my perspective, Im kind of an outsider.  I know I cant be a protestant anymore and I have looked at both Churches for a while now.  I have had pretty convincing discussions about which church is "right" with people from both parties.  Ive always leaned Orthodoxy, but theres still a small part of me that isnt 100% sure.  I think this is why I have such a great desire for the Church to reunite.  It would make this decision so much easier.

Discussions and dialogue (whatever good it's doing) are ongoing at many levels. The Orthodox and RCC bishops in our city have a close fraternal relationship and have two events together each year. When His Excellency Metropolitan Kallistos visited last year, he reported on the Orthodox-Catholic dialogue at one of the joint events.
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« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2012, 11:07:42 AM »

The RC is far more open to reunification, because to them, they've done little to nothing wrong.

If Rome wants to come back, they just have to do what Fr. Hopko said. Become Orthodox again. Anything short of that is a waste of time.

PP
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« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2012, 11:08:28 AM »

Ive always leaned Orthodoxy, but theres still a small part of me that isnt 100% sure.  I think this is why I have such a great desire for the Church to reunite.  It would make this decision so much easier.

We'll make sure to hurry up the process so you can have an easier decision before you.   Wink

I'm pretty sure seeing the Son of Man returning on the clouds of heaven with great power and glory would make having faith much easier too.

Just giving you a hard time, but keep in mind that many, having considerably stronger ties to the RC Church, have made this decision.
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« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2012, 11:20:39 AM »

Ive always leaned Orthodoxy, but theres still a small part of me that isnt 100% sure.  I think this is why I have such a great desire for the Church to reunite.  It would make this decision so much easier.

We'll make sure to hurry up the process so you can have an easier decision before you.   Wink

I'm pretty sure seeing the Son of Man returning on the clouds of heaven with great power and glory would make having faith much easier too.

Just giving you a hard time, but keep in mind that many, having considerably stronger ties to the RC Church, have made this decision.

Yes, my husband (raised RC, parochial schools and all the rest) found it extremely difficult.
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« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2012, 11:25:29 AM »

It just seems to me that maybe there should be more of an effort on both sides to discuss reuniting.  And maybe this is happening after all.  I dont really keep up with who is talking to who within the Church, so hopefully people are making an effort.  If there are any articles or examples I could read of that happening, let me know.

From my perspective, Im kind of an outsider.  I know I cant be a protestant anymore and I have looked at both Churches for a while now.  I have had pretty convincing discussions about which church is "right" with people from both parties.  Ive always leaned Orthodoxy, but theres still a small part of me that isnt 100% sure.  I think this is why I have such a great desire for the Church to reunite.  It would make this decision so much easier.

The comments posted on the internets notwithstanding, there is much going on in theological circles between the Orthodox and the Romans. Hang in there!
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« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2012, 11:40:37 AM »

For reunion to occur, each church must come to see itself in the other. This is not the case. They both have very different understandings of what it means to be "orthodox" and "catholic" that exclude the other church on some level, and while it may be unpopular or mean to say so, I would rather the current state continue than anyone rush into communion without a proper understanding of what that means. From my time under Rome, I am extremely pessimistic that Rome should ever come to understand things in an Orthodox fashion. They once did at one time, of course, but the sea change that would need to occur in the Roman communion in order for them to regain that understanding would require a fundamental reconsideration of scripture, patristics, etc. It's a tall order.
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« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2012, 11:46:54 AM »

Just my 2½ cents worth:

Although we perceive many similarities in both churches there are serious differences that need to be resolved:

1. Filioque
2. Papal Supremacy vs Primacy
3. Papal Infallibility
4. Immaculate Conception

Im sure there are more but I purposely did not mention in the list Enzymes, Old vs New Calendar, Purgatory, married priests, Essence and Energies, Created Graces  which are only a few points which are not impediments to union.  I tried to list the above in priority order as I see things.  These points are very important in any union talks.  Until the serious differences are resolved we will continue to wish after wish for union.   Neither side wants to compromise on dogma.  Mayber there will be union in heaven only.
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« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2012, 11:53:58 AM »

Quote
The comments posted on the internets notwithstanding, there is much going on in theological circles between the Orthodox and the Romans. Hang in there!
Progress is really being made here in the US, where such ancestral hatreds are alot weaker than say, Ukraine or something.

Quote
1. Filioque
I think they would come off of that judging from what I've heard
Quote
2. Papal Supremacy vs Primacy
Toughie for sure.....
Quote
3. Papal Infallibility
I think this is just a matter of time before it comes tumbling down
Quote
4. Immaculate Conception
Another toughie

I just dont see this happening anytime soon. Like it was said in another thread, the EO/OO problem should be handled first and foremost.

PP
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« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2012, 11:58:15 AM »

Quote
Like it was said in another thread, the EO/OO problem should be handled first and foremost.

Thats a good point.

Just curious, are there any Catholics who would like to comment?  Im not trying to start a war here, I just wouldnt mind hearing another perspective.

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« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2012, 01:09:03 PM »

For a good Catholic discussion on the prospects of unity between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, see Richard Neuhaus, "Reconciling East and West."  I suggest that we use this article for the basis of our discussion. 
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« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2012, 01:13:57 PM »

Quote
Tags editted - MK.

I didnt put any tags, so just incase someone put something offensive i wanna clear my name and say it wasnt me!
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« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2012, 01:16:17 PM »

Quote
Tags editted - MK.

I didnt put any tags, so just incase someone put something offensive i wanna clear my name and say it wasnt me!

Quoting tags.
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« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2012, 02:03:04 PM »

...while it may be unpopular or mean to say so, I would rather the current state continue than anyone rush into communion without a proper understanding of what that means.

Good point.
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« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2012, 02:10:35 PM »

It just seems to me that maybe there should be more of an effort on both sides to discuss reuniting.  And maybe this is happening after all.  I dont really keep up with who is talking to who within the Church, so hopefully people are making an effort.  If there are any articles or examples I could read of that happening, let me know.

From my perspective, Im kind of an outsider.  I know I cant be a protestant anymore and I have looked at both Churches for a while now.  I have had pretty convincing discussions about which church is "right" with people from both parties.  Ive always leaned Orthodoxy, but theres still a small part of me that isnt 100% sure.  I think this is why I have such a great desire for the Church to reunite.  It would make this decision so much easier.

Don't hold your breath  Sad.
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« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2012, 02:30:01 PM »

Is it just me, or does it seem like the RC church is more open to the idea of reuniting than the OC?....Is it true that the RC is more open to talks of reuniting?
Not really.
From what I have read here and on other boards,  many Orthodox are quite open to union with Roman Catholics.  If the Roman Catholics would only make a few small  changes, then the unification would proceed smoothly.  This is not a complete list, but to name just a few of the changes I have heard about:
1. Papal infallibility
2. Papal supremacy and universal jurisdiction
3. Filioque
4. Immaculate conception
5. Purgatory and indulgences
6. Division of sin into mortal and venial
7. Baptism by sprinkling or pouring instead of triple immersion.
8. Baptism, Holy Communion and  Chrismation at different times. They should be given together.
9. Use of statues instead of icons. Statues must be banned and only officially approved icons may be used. 
10. Correct method to make the sign of the Cross.
11. Restoration of a full epiclesis during Mass.
12. Adoption of the revised Julian calendar and accept the Orthodox date for Easter and other feast days.
13. No musical instrumentation allowed during liturgy. Only liturgical songs approved by Eastern Orthodox bishops may be sung; i.e., no profane music, no guitars, no electric pianos, etc. Only chanting according to a prescribed liturgical form is allowed.
14. Adoption of Orthodox fasting rules for Holy Communion and for Lent and for other periods such as the Nativity fast, the Dormitian fast, and the Apostles fast. 
15. Communion in both kinds given by the spoon.
16. Icons of Mary must have her holding the Child Jesus and not alone.
17. Reform of the present  Roman New Mass to make it more spiritually edifying in line with the Orthodox Divine Liturgy.
18. Acceptance of all Eastern Orthodox saints, such as St. Photius, and throwing out certain western saints, such as St. Josephat.
19. Reevaluation of all Roman Councils held after the seventh ecumenical Council in the light of Orthodox teaching.
20. Rejection of the theory of marriage annulments, according to which just about anyone can get his marriage annulled by invoking the idea of deficient consent at the time of the marriage ceremony.  Require the crowning ceremony for marriage.
21. All Roman clergy, including priests, bishops and the Pope would undergo a brief re-education period and subsequently be re-ordained by Orthodox bishops.
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« Reply #25 on: April 03, 2012, 02:37:05 PM »

Is it just me, or does it seem like the RC church is more open to the idea of reuniting than the OC?....Is it true that the RC is more open to talks of reuniting?
Not really.
From what I have read here and on other boards,  many Orthodox are quite open to union with Roman Catholics.  If the Roman Catholics would only make a few small  changes, then the unification would proceed smoothly.  This is not a complete list, but to name just a few of the changes I have heard about:
1. Papal infallibility
2. Papal supremacy and universal jurisdiction
3. Filioque
4. Immaculate conception
5. Purgatory and indulgences
6. Division of sin into mortal and venial
7. Baptism by sprinkling or pouring instead of triple immersion.
8. Baptism, Holy Communion and  Chrismation at different times. They should be given together.
9. Use of statues instead of icons. Statues must be banned and only officially approved icons may be used. 
10. Correct method to make the sign of the Cross.
11. Restoration of a full epiclesis during Mass.
12. Adoption of the revised Julian calendar and accept the Orthodox date for Easter and other feast days.
13. No musical instrumentation allowed during liturgy. Only liturgical songs approved by Eastern Orthodox bishops may be sung; i.e., no profane music, no guitars, no electric pianos, etc. Only chanting according to a prescribed liturgical form is allowed.
14. Adoption of Orthodox fasting rules for Holy Communion and for Lent and for other periods such as the Nativity fast, the Dormitian fast, and the Apostles fast. 
15. Communion in both kinds given by the spoon.
16. Icons of Mary must have her holding the Child Jesus and not alone.
17. Reform of the present  Roman New Mass to make it more spiritually edifying in line with the Orthodox Divine Liturgy.
18. Acceptance of all Eastern Orthodox saints, such as St. Photius, and throwing out certain western saints, such as St. Josephat.
19. Reevaluation of all Roman Councils held after the seventh ecumenical Council in the light of Orthodox teaching.
20. Rejection of the theory of marriage annulments, according to which just about anyone can get his marriage annulled by invoking the idea of deficient consent at the time of the marriage ceremony.  Require the crowning ceremony for marriage.
21. All Roman clergy, including priests, bishops and the Pope would undergo a brief re-education period and subsequently be re-ordained by Orthodox bishops.

 laugh laugh

Like I said....don't hold your breath.
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« Reply #26 on: April 03, 2012, 02:52:53 PM »

Don't forget their priests need to grow beards and they need to get rid of all their pews and stained glass windows.
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« Reply #27 on: April 03, 2012, 02:54:27 PM »

Is it just me, or does it seem like the RC church is more open to the idea of reuniting than the OC?....Is it true that the RC is more open to talks of reuniting?
Not really.
From what I have read here and on other boards,  many Orthodox are quite open to union with Roman Catholics.  If the Roman Catholics would only make a few small  changes, then the unification would proceed smoothly.  This is not a complete list, but to name just a few of the changes I have heard about:
1. Papal infallibility
2. Papal supremacy and universal jurisdiction
3. Filioque
4. Immaculate conception
5. Purgatory and indulgences
6. Division of sin into mortal and venial
7. Baptism by sprinkling or pouring instead of triple immersion.
8. Baptism, Holy Communion and  Chrismation at different times. They should be given together.
9. Use of statues instead of icons. Statues must be banned and only officially approved icons may be used.  
10. Correct method to make the sign of the Cross.
11. Restoration of a full epiclesis during Mass.
12. Adoption of the revised Julian calendar and accept the Orthodox date for Easter and other feast days.
13. No musical instrumentation allowed during liturgy. Only liturgical songs approved by Eastern Orthodox bishops may be sung; i.e., no profane music, no guitars, no electric pianos, etc. Only chanting according to a prescribed liturgical form is allowed.
14. Adoption of Orthodox fasting rules for Holy Communion and for Lent and for other periods such as the Nativity fast, the Dormitian fast, and the Apostles fast.  
15. Communion in both kinds given by the spoon.
16. Icons of Mary must have her holding the Child Jesus and not alone.
17. Reform of the present  Roman New Mass to make it more spiritually edifying in line with the Orthodox Divine Liturgy.
18. Acceptance of all Eastern Orthodox saints, such as St. Photius, and throwing out certain western saints, such as St. Josephat.
19. Reevaluation of all Roman Councils held after the seventh ecumenical Council in the light of Orthodox teaching.
20. Rejection of the theory of marriage annulments, according to which just about anyone can get his marriage annulled by invoking the idea of deficient consent at the time of the marriage ceremony.  Require the crowning ceremony for marriage.


Not to be contentious, but this list is one to which only the most extremist anti-ecumenicist and uber-trad Orthodox would hold to every point (and directly contradicted on many points by AWRV parishes). A comparable list could be developed from trad Catholic arguments, and thus it would look like reunion is farther away than ever!

By and large every Orthodox Christian would agree on the first three (as to how many would be willing to reunite with the West holding the filioque as a pious tradition- hard to determine). The first half of number 18 would be a natural part of reunion. Numbers 9,10, 14 and 15 could very easily be accepted as local variation. 12 would have to be to be hammered out at a Pan-Orthodox or Ecumenical Council following reunion (FWIW, we Orthodox need to date Easter according to the original intent of the pre-Schism Church as well- Paschal celebration in May indeed!). Numbers 13 and 17 should be prayed for by good Catholics anyway  Wink . 5 I think we can accept the first half as pious opinion, but we'd have to reject indulgences. 4 should be allowable as pious opinion as well, though I think we should have a looooong talk about our understandings of original/ancestral sin, first. The rest would be dealt with if and as necessary after reunion.

As to the OP- if I and my brother had a falling out over an inheritance left by our father, and part of the reason was that I was overbearing in my demands regarding the division of our inheritance and years later we started speaking again about reconciliation: would I really be considered the party "more open" to reconciliation if I stated that it was mainly my lawyer who was the cause of our initial division, that all was forgiven, and he was welcome back with open arms- so long as he was willing to do every last little thing with his portion of the inheritance as I dictate?
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« Reply #28 on: April 03, 2012, 05:29:40 PM »

Well that's a relief!

Not really.
From what I have read here and on other boards,  many Orthodox are quite open to union with Roman Catholics.  If the Roman Catholics would only make a few small changes, then the unification would proceed smoothly.  This is not a complete list, but to name just a few of the changes I have heard about:
1. Papal infallibility
2. Papal supremacy and universal jurisdiction
3. Filioque
4. Immaculate conception
5. Purgatory and indulgences
6. Division of sin into mortal and venial
7. Baptism by sprinkling or pouring instead of triple immersion.
8. Baptism, Holy Communion and  Chrismation at different times. They should be given together.
9. Use of statues instead of icons. Statues must be banned and only officially approved icons may be used.  
10. Correct method to make the sign of the Cross.
11. Restoration of a full epiclesis during Mass.
12. Adoption of the revised Julian calendar and accept the Orthodox date for Easter and other feast days.
13. No musical instrumentation allowed during liturgy. Only liturgical songs approved by Eastern Orthodox bishops may be sung; i.e., no profane music, no guitars, no electric pianos, etc. Only chanting according to a prescribed liturgical form is allowed.
14. Adoption of Orthodox fasting rules for Holy Communion and for Lent and for other periods such as the Nativity fast, the Dormitian fast, and the Apostles fast.  
15. Communion in both kinds given by the spoon.
16. Icons of Mary must have her holding the Child Jesus and not alone.
17. Reform of the present  Roman New Mass to make it more spiritually edifying in line with the Orthodox Divine Liturgy.
18. Acceptance of all Eastern Orthodox saints, such as St. Photius, and throwing out certain western saints, such as St. Josephat.
19. Reevaluation of all Roman Councils held after the seventh ecumenical Council in the light of Orthodox teaching.
20. Rejection of the theory of marriage annulments, according to which just about anyone can get his marriage annulled by invoking the idea of deficient consent at the time of the marriage ceremony.  Require the crowning ceremony for marriage.
21. All Roman clergy, including priests, bishops and the Pope would undergo a brief re-education period and subsequently be re-ordained by Orthodox bishops.
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« Reply #29 on: April 03, 2012, 05:37:30 PM »

The RC is far more open to reunification, because to them, they've done little to nothing wrong.

If Rome wants to come back, they just have to do what Fr. Hopko said. Become Orthodox again. Anything short of that is a waste of time.

PP

Here's what I can never understand: when Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans, etc ask about reunion with EOs, the answer is always "You must become Orthodox"; and yet you guys are always saying that the Oriental Orthodox are already Orthodox despite rejecting 4 ecumenical councils that are agreed upon by EOs, Catholics, and many Anglicans and Protestants.
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« Reply #30 on: April 03, 2012, 05:41:25 PM »

I am quite surprised by the above list. Several key issues have been left off of it...

- Orthodox store holy water in special bottles with little paper icons of Christ glued on. Catholics carelessly let their holy water sitting in open recepticals, where any atheist or other perverted person could get to it.

- Catholics have corrupted Marian prayers. For example, a truly Christin one looks like this: "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee O Virgin Theotokos! Blessed are thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. For thou has borne the Savior of our souls." I shant post here the disgusting RC version.

- Catholics typically have Saturday services around 4 or 5pm. This makes no sense for most of the year as the service should coincide with the beginning of the new day according to the Jewish ancient liturgical reckoning. Therefore, they will have to be moved to approximately 6pm.

- The Jews sent their children to the public schools of the Canaanites. The early Christians sent their children to the public schools of the Romans. Even the Church Fathers went to the schools of the pagans. How would Sts. Basil and Gregory have met that fine Julian fellow otherwise? Anyway... this stuff with Catholic schools... it must stop!
« Last Edit: April 03, 2012, 05:45:17 PM by Asteriktos » Logged

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« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2012, 05:48:29 PM »

Don't forget their priests need to grow beards and they need to get rid of all their pews and stained glass windows.
Well, OK about the beards and the pews, but I thought that you might allow us Romans to keep our stained glass windows? Any chance you might reconsider this?
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« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2012, 05:54:04 PM »

Is it just me, or does it seem like the RC church is more open to the idea of reuniting than the OC?

I want more than anything (and Im sure many of you do too) for the Church to reunite. 

I was talking to a buddy of mine who grew up protestant with me and later converted to RC.  He was a lot like I currently am and took nearly 3 years to decide between the RC and the OC.  He eventually went with the RC and when I asked why, he said it was largely because they were more open to the idea of reuniting which is very important to him. (note: thats not the ONLY reason. He does think the RC church is 'right')

Is it true that the RC is more open to talks of reuniting?

Depends upon what the criteria for re-uniting would be. If we told them they had to renounce the pope as having universal jurisdiction over the other bishops, would the be so eager to re-unite?
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« Reply #33 on: April 03, 2012, 05:57:28 PM »

Don't forget their priests need to grow beards and they need to get rid of all their pews and stained glass windows.

And let them get married for (St.) Pete's sake! Wink
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« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2012, 05:58:24 PM »

Don't forget their priests need to grow beards and they need to get rid of all their pews and stained glass windows.
Well, OK about the beards and the pews, but I thought that you might allow us Romans to keep our stained glass windows? Any chance you might reconsider this?

we have stained glass in our other parish, so i assume this would be ok...just don't venerate it!  Kiss
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« Reply #35 on: April 03, 2012, 05:58:54 PM »

The RC is far more open to reunification, because to them, they've done little to nothing wrong.

If Rome wants to come back, they just have to do what Fr. Hopko said. Become Orthodox again. Anything short of that is a waste of time.

PP

Here's what I can never understand: when Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans, etc ask about reunion with EOs, the answer is always "You must become Orthodox"; and yet you guys are always saying that the Oriental Orthodox are already Orthodox despite rejecting 4 ecumenical councils that are agreed upon by EOs, Catholics, and many Anglicans and Protestants.

they embrace the spirit of the councils.
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« Reply #36 on: April 03, 2012, 06:11:25 PM »

The RC is far more open to reunification, because to them, they've done little to nothing wrong.

If Rome wants to come back, they just have to do what Fr. Hopko said. Become Orthodox again. Anything short of that is a waste of time.

PP

Here's what I can never understand: when Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans, etc ask about reunion with EOs, the answer is always "You must become Orthodox"; and yet you guys are always saying that the Oriental Orthodox are already Orthodox despite rejecting 4 ecumenical councils that are agreed upon by EOs, Catholics, and many Anglicans and Protestants.

Well, according to our own discussions on the EO/OO forum here at OCnet and what I've read on the discussions at more official levels, it seems the OO only reject the 4th council, and the latter three in-so-far as they proclaim that Chalcedon must be accepted (or, I suppose, in keeping with Low Church Anglican-speak: they accept the Christological clarifications of the latter 3). The main problem with EO and RC is papal supremacy and its child, infallibility- if and when these are resolved everything else can be solved with an Ecumenical council. As far as Anglicans and Lutherans are concerned- well, some hold communion with Low church groups who reject most of the content of the latter councils, and of the rest there is the matter of ecclesiology. For those High Church Anglicans who applauded Metropolitan JONAH at the opening ceremonies of the ACNA this means leaving the ACNA and joining with the Orthodox- for other High Church groups there are levels of dialogue that might bear fruit one way or the other, but by and large they seem to look more to Rome than to Orthodoxy. There cannot, of course, be a whole scale reunion with Anglicans barring a massive house-cleaning in the Anglican Communion (women priests, low church theology, etc). I can't speak too much of the dialogues with the Lutherans, as I haven't read too much on that, but I would suspect it is similar to the Anglicans.

To sum- Reunion with Rome, while much hoped, has the Pope as a sticking point and thus talks have become stuck. Reunion with Anglicans looked promising until the Anglicans decided to leave any idea of Catholic practice behind in the dust, while the continuing Anglicans are either happy enough to continue Anglican or looking toward Rome. Lutherans- IDK.

On the other hand, OO and EO dialogue has born much fruit.
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« Reply #37 on: April 03, 2012, 07:28:47 PM »

I was talking to a buddy of mine who grew up protestant with me and later converted to RC.  He was a lot like I currently am and took nearly 3 years to decide between the RC and the OC.  He eventually went with the RC and when I asked why, he said it was largely because they were more open to the idea of reuniting which is very important to him. (note: thats not the ONLY reason. He does think the RC church is 'right')

While acknowledging that you said it was not your friend's only reaosn for so choosing, I feel compelled to comment that the reason of his which you point to is so incredibly vapid.

It reminds me of the "most friendly parent" idea in family law -- that the parent which is least hostile to the other is supposedly to be preferred, even if the actions of that parent are the cause of the hostility.
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« Reply #38 on: April 03, 2012, 07:30:07 PM »

I want more than anything (and Im sure many of you do too) for the Church to reunite. 
I would think that following God would take precedence over "uniting".

Thread over.
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« Reply #39 on: April 03, 2012, 07:31:52 PM »

We are not Roman Catholics but with beards and funny hats.

The sooner the communicants and prelates of the Roman Church realise that, the better off we will all be.
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« Reply #40 on: April 03, 2012, 08:34:36 PM »

The RC is far more open to reunification, because to them, they've done little to nothing wrong.

If Rome wants to come back, they just have to do what Fr. Hopko said. Become Orthodox again. Anything short of that is a waste of time.

PP

Here's what I can never understand: when Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans, etc ask about reunion with EOs, the answer is always "You must become Orthodox"; and yet you guys are always saying that the Oriental Orthodox are already Orthodox despite rejecting 4 ecumenical councils that are agreed upon by EOs, Catholics, and many Anglicans and Protestants.

Any time we get into a discussion with them about the actual content of the councils, we find substantial agreement (see the various threads here which reflect the same results found at the formal dialogues). This is even true of Chalcedon where they agree with what we say Chalcedon means--the only point of disagreement is whether Chalcedon actually meant that at the time (the simplified EO position) or if it was reinterpreted into something acceptable by the 5th Ecumenical Council (the simplified OO position). This is why most Orthodox (of either type) recognize the other group as essentially 'orthodox'--a necessary precondition to reunion and why that reunion is actually a real possibility.

This actually goes to a fundamentally different understanding of doctrine between Orthodoxy and Rome. For Orthodoxy, the dogma of the Church was complete with the Apostles. It can be clarified in the face of heresy, translated into new language or terms, but it cannot be added to or changed .  A council is authoritative ('Ecumenical') on doctrinal matters because it reflects that Apostolic doctrine (and is a 'false council'--like Florence--if it fails to do so). As such acceptance of (and agreement on) that Apostolic doctrine is more important than the formal acceptance of a council (and why EO's themselves can vary on 'recognition' of the 8th and 9th Ecumenical Councils--because whether we call them that or not, we all agree those councils reflected the Apostolic doctrine). Rome, on the other hand, claims the authority to make things dogma (immaculate conception, assumption of the Virgin, papal infallibility) which were not previously dogma. Staying away from the more controversial of those, focus on the example of the Assumption. A Christian living in 2nd-century Iberia may have had no idea what happened to the Virgin's body after her death. Or maybe he heard the tale of the assumption and just assumed it was an exaggerated rumor. I don't think that the RC, and I know that Orthodoxy, would think that that Christian's salvation was in anyway imperiled by his ignorance or his dismissal of the tale--even if we agree that he was factually wrong in the latter case. Orthodoxy maintains that if it was not necessary to his salvation, it can not be necessary to a modern individual's salvation; Rome on the other hand made it a dogma, saying that from that time on it was necessary.

Getting back to the thread topic, that's another reason Rome can sound more open to reunion (although, again, I don't think that reflects reality because I've seen no indication Rome is anywhere close to giving up its positions on the papacy). Because dogma can be changed, Rome can speak as if there is some sort of compromise that can be worked out to effect reunion. But since, for Orthodoxy, dogma cannot be changed, 'compromise' is not an option. Only agreement.
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« Reply #41 on: April 03, 2012, 10:44:08 PM »

I am quite surprised by the above list. Several key issues have been left off of it...

- Orthodox store holy water in special bottles with little paper icons of Christ glued on. Catholics carelessly let their holy water sitting in open recepticals, where any atheist or other perverted person could get to it.

- Catholics have corrupted Marian prayers. For example, a truly Christin one looks like this: "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee O Virgin Theotokos! Blessed are thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. For thou has borne the Savior of our souls." I shant post here the disgusting RC version.

- Catholics typically have Saturday services around 4 or 5pm. This makes no sense for most of the year as the service should coincide with the beginning of the new day according to the Jewish ancient liturgical reckoning. Therefore, they will have to be moved to approximately 6pm.

- The Jews sent their children to the public schools of the Canaanites. The early Christians sent their children to the public schools of the Romans. Even the Church Fathers went to the schools of the pagans. How would Sts. Basil and Gregory have met that fine Julian fellow otherwise? Anyway... this stuff with Catholic schools... it must stop!

There are a few things that surprise me with your list.....

- I think its OK that the Romans put their holy water out in the church fonts. This is an ancient pre-schismal Roman practice. Some Orthodox churches have a special fountain or large container for holy water in their churches. Its not out in the open...its in a church protected by those who have reverence for the it. If an atheist or perverted person is in a church hes there because he wants to make a change in his life otherwise he wouldnt be in church (the spiritual hospital).

- The Roman Hail Mary is not corrupted its just of a different tradition. I dont think that there is anything wrong with the wording of the Roman version. I think the Western-rite Orthodox missions use the Roman Hail Mary. They might have some corrupted prayers (especially the ones in reference to the Immaculate Conception) but they have some great Marian prayers.

- I agree with the fact they would have to move their Saturday services to a later time after/during sunset according to the ancient liturgical timing practices. Also, they would have to also have only one daily or Sunday Mass and no Saturday Mass of Anticipation.

- There is nothing wrong with Catholics having their own school systems. Catholic parochial schools offer some of the best education opportunities around the world and with a religious and moral centered education. In many ways, its safer than public school systems. Wouldnt you rather have your child learn about the Creation of Man according to Christian belief instead of the "Evolution" of Man. I know many Orthodox who send their children to Catholic school. I went to Catholic school for a several years. There are even some Orthodox Christian parochial schools. Many early Christians sent their children to pagan/public schools because they were schools of the elite and I think that if Christians had started their own schools it would have led to even more persecution and the Christians would have been left out of all affairs and careers because people would somehow think they were not qualified or dumb. Plus, many of the best teachers were pagans or connected to paganism.   
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« Reply #42 on: April 03, 2012, 10:56:27 PM »

I am quite surprised by the above list. Several key issues have been left off of it...

- Orthodox store holy water in special bottles with little paper icons of Christ glued on. Catholics carelessly let their holy water sitting in open recepticals, where any atheist or other perverted person could get to it.

- Catholics have corrupted Marian prayers. For example, a truly Christin one looks like this: "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee O Virgin Theotokos! Blessed are thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. For thou has borne the Savior of our souls." I shant post here the disgusting RC version.

- Catholics typically have Saturday services around 4 or 5pm. This makes no sense for most of the year as the service should coincide with the beginning of the new day according to the Jewish ancient liturgical reckoning. Therefore, they will have to be moved to approximately 6pm.

- The Jews sent their children to the public schools of the Canaanites. The early Christians sent their children to the public schools of the Romans. Even the Church Fathers went to the schools of the pagans. How would Sts. Basil and Gregory have met that fine Julian fellow otherwise? Anyway... this stuff with Catholic schools... it must stop!

There are a few things that surprise me with your list.....

- I think its OK that the Romans put their holy water out in the church fonts. This is an ancient pre-schismal Roman practice. Some Orthodox churches have a special fountain or large container for holy water in their churches. Its not out in the open...its in a church protected by those who have reverence for the it. If an atheist or perverted person is in a church hes there because he wants to make a change in his life otherwise he wouldnt be in church (the spiritual hospital).

- The Roman Hail Mary is not corrupted its just of a different tradition. I dont think that there is anything wrong with the wording of the Roman version. I think the Western-rite Orthodox missions use the Roman Hail Mary. They might have some corrupted prayers (especially the ones in reference to the Immaculate Conception) but they have some great Marian prayers.

- I agree with the fact they would have to move their Saturday services to a later time after/during sunset according to the ancient liturgical timing practices. Also, they would have to also have only one daily or Sunday Mass and no Saturday Mass of Anticipation.

- There is nothing wrong with Catholics having their own school systems. Catholic parochial schools offer some of the best education opportunities around the world and with a religious and moral centered education. In many ways, its safer than public school systems. Wouldnt you rather have your child learn about the Creation of Man according to Christian belief instead of the "Evolution" of Man. I know many Orthodox who send their children to Catholic school. I went to Catholic school for a several years. There are even some Orthodox Christian parochial schools. Many early Christians sent their children to pagan/public schools because they were schools of the elite and I think that if Christians had started their own schools it would have led to even more persecution and the Christians would have been left out of all affairs and careers because people would somehow think they were not qualified or dumb. Plus, many of the best teachers were pagans or connected to paganism.   

If you're taking Asteriktos' post seriously, my friend Jonathon Swift has a very horrifying proposal you should stay away from.
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« Reply #43 on: April 03, 2012, 11:34:17 PM »

Is it just me, or does it seem like the RC church is more open to the idea of reuniting than the OC?....Is it true that the RC is more open to talks of reuniting?
Not really.
From what I have read here and on other boards,  many Orthodox are quite open to union with Roman Catholics.  If the Roman Catholics would only make a few small  changes, then the unification would proceed smoothly.  This is not a complete list, but to name just a few of the changes I have heard about:
1. Papal infallibility
2. Papal supremacy and universal jurisdiction
3. Filioque
4. Immaculate conception
5. Purgatory and indulgences
6. Division of sin into mortal and venial
7. Baptism by sprinkling or pouring instead of triple immersion.
8. Baptism, Holy Communion and  Chrismation at different times. They should be given together.
9. Use of statues instead of icons. Statues must be banned and only officially approved icons may be used.  
10. Correct method to make the sign of the Cross.
11. Restoration of a full epiclesis during Mass.
12. Adoption of the revised Julian calendar and accept the Orthodox date for Easter and other feast days.
13. No musical instrumentation allowed during liturgy. Only liturgical songs approved by Eastern Orthodox bishops may be sung; i.e., no profane music, no guitars, no electric pianos, etc. Only chanting according to a prescribed liturgical form is allowed.
14. Adoption of Orthodox fasting rules for Holy Communion and for Lent and for other periods such as the Nativity fast, the Dormitian fast, and the Apostles fast.  
15. Communion in both kinds given by the spoon.
16. Icons of Mary must have her holding the Child Jesus and not alone.
17. Reform of the present  Roman New Mass to make it more spiritually edifying in line with the Orthodox Divine Liturgy.
18. Acceptance of all Eastern Orthodox saints, such as St. Photius, and throwing out certain western saints, such as St. Josephat.
19. Reevaluation of all Roman Councils held after the seventh ecumenical Council in the light of Orthodox teaching.
20. Rejection of the theory of marriage annulments, according to which just about anyone can get his marriage annulled by invoking the idea of deficient consent at the time of the marriage ceremony.  Require the crowning ceremony for marriage.


Not to be contentious, but this list is one to which only the most extremist anti-ecumenicist and uber-trad Orthodox would hold to every point (and directly contradicted on many points by AWRV parishes). A comparable list could be developed from trad Catholic arguments, and thus it would look like reunion is farther away than ever!

By and large every Orthodox Christian would agree on the first three (as to how many would be willing to reunite with the West holding the filioque as a pious tradition- hard to determine). The first half of number 18 would be a natural part of reunion. Numbers 9,10, 14 and 15 could very easily be accepted as local variation. 12 would have to be to be hammered out at a Pan-Orthodox or Ecumenical Council following reunion (FWIW, we Orthodox need to date Easter according to the original intent of the pre-Schism Church as well- Paschal celebration in May indeed!). Numbers 13 and 17 should be prayed for by good Catholics anyway  Wink . 5 I think we can accept the first half as pious opinion, but we'd have to reject indulgences. 4 should be allowable as pious opinion as well, though I think we should have a looooong talk about our understandings of original/ancestral sin, first. The rest would be dealt with if and as necessary after reunion.

As to the OP- if I and my brother had a falling out over an inheritance left by our father, and part of the reason was that I was overbearing in my demands regarding the division of our inheritance and years later we started speaking again about reconciliation: would I really be considered the party "more open" to reconciliation if I stated that it was mainly my lawyer who was the cause of our initial division, that all was forgiven, and he was welcome back with open arms- so long as he was willing to do every last little thing with his portion of the inheritance as I dictate?

Thanks former reformer - you saved me several hours of thinking and writing! I agree with most of what you said. For goodness sake, one would have to change 3/4's of the Orthodox in the world if you used this list literally.
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akimel
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« Reply #44 on: April 03, 2012, 11:37:08 PM »


This actually goes to a fundamentally different understanding of doctrine between Orthodoxy and Rome. For Orthodoxy, the dogma of the Church was complete with the Apostles. It can be clarified in the face of heresy, translated into new language or terms, but it cannot be added to or changed .

And all Catholic theologians agree.   As John Henry Newman insisted, "the Church does not know more than the Apostles knew."

If Orthodox are going to engage the Catholic understanding of dogmatic development, then it is important for Orthodox to be able to accurately state the Catholic understanding of dogmatic development.   

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