Topic: Head of Orthodox Church of Czech Lands and Slovakia Visits Uzhhorod

[Orest]

02-04-2012
http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/culture/theology/47576/

Head of Orthodox Church of Czech Lands and Slovakia Visits Uzhhorod

[ialmisry]

Interesting.  Maybe Zakarpattia can get its autonomy, promised but never delivered.

[Orest]

Interesting.  Maybe Zakarpattia can get its autonomy, promised but never delivered.

Sorry I don't see the connection with this story.  Please enlighten me.
Archbishop Christopher (Pulets) of Prague would not have any role in the granting of autonomy to the Orthodox Church in Zakarpatia.

[podkarpatska]

Interesting.  Maybe Zakarpattia can get its autonomy, promised but never delivered.

Sorry I don't see the connection with this story.  Please enlighten me.
Archbishop Christopher (Pulets) of Prague would not have any role in the granting of autonomy to the Orthodox Church in Zakarpatia.

Isa can correct me if I am in error, but I think he was not necessarily referring to religious autonomy but rather political autonomy. A subject which if unchecked can really roll out of control mighty fast......The comments on RISU.org following the article sort of give one a flavor of what might come from starting that discussion.

[ialmisry]

Interesting.  Maybe Zakarpattia can get its autonomy, promised but never delivered.

Sorry I don't see the connection with this story.  Please enlighten me.
Archbishop Christopher (Pulets) of Prague would not have any role in the granting of autonomy to the Orthodox Church in Zakarpatia.

Isa can correct me if I am in error, but I think he was not necessarily referring to religious autonomy but rather political autonomy. A subject which if unchecked can really roll out of control mighty fast......The comments on RISU.org following the article sort of give one a flavor of what might come from starting that discussion.

The interesting thing was that Moscow, the autocephalous head, was not involved directly in the chain autocephalous Met. Christophor-autonomous Met. Volodymyr-Dean of the Seminary in Zakarpattia. Met. Christophor can certainly support the granting of autonomy to the Orthodox Church of Zakarpattia, which remains staunchly Russophile (mostly to keep the Ukrainians at bay): the UOC-KP/UAOC barely has any presence, and that of the Vatican is outmatched by the Orthodox, something rare in Western Ukraine.

[podkarpatska]

Interesting.  Maybe Zakarpattia can get its autonomy, promised but never delivered.

Sorry I don't see the connection with this story.  Please enlighten me.
Archbishop Christopher (Pulets) of Prague would not have any role in the granting of autonomy to the Orthodox Church in Zakarpatia.

Isa can correct me if I am in error, but I think he was not necessarily referring to religious autonomy but rather political autonomy. A subject which if unchecked can really roll out of control mighty fast......The comments on RISU.org following the article sort of give one a flavor of what might come from starting that discussion.

The interesting thing was that Moscow, the autocephalous head, was not involved directly in the chain autocephalous Met. Christophor-autonomous Met. Volodymyr-Dean of the Seminary in Zakarpattia. Met. Christophor can certainly support the granting of autonomy to the Orthodox Church of Zakarpattia, which remains staunchly Russophile (mostly to keep the Ukrainians at bay): the UOC-KP/UAOC barely has any presence, and that of the Vatican is outmatched by the Orthodox, something rare in Western Ukraine.

It is an interesting 'safe island' that the Orthodox migrated to in Zakarpattia as supporters of the UOP-MP. When Fr. Dymytry Sydor (pastor of the largest church in the region and political leader of the Rusyn national faction in Zakarpatia) was in the states for an extended tour about ten years ago he was just building the Holy Cross Cathedral in Uzhorod - with neither the blessing nor financial support of the Bishop governing that region. He spent some time with my father and several of the parishioners from the region during the early winter that year. He explained that they had a 'practical' relationship and understanding with the UOC-MP Bishop  to use Father's words.

In other words, the Slovak-Rusyn orthodox of Transcarpathia would be given breathing room from the advances of the Ukrainianizing factions in exchange for loyalty to Met. Volodomyr and the UOC-MP. This seems to be holding true in the counties close to the Slovak border from information brought back to the states by relatives (my brother in law visited relatives outside of Medzilaborce, Slovakia who lived on the Ukrainian side of the border and others who were Fr. Dymytry's parishioners) and other visitors. The Carpatho-Russian prostopenije remains in use and the services are distinct from the practices of the UOC or the MP per se. Although the Orthodox and the Greek Catholics of Muchacevo hardly get along even to this day, they seem to quietly practice the old adage about having common adversaries and making strange bedfellows. A confusing and 'Byzantine' (in the truest sense of the meaning of the word) mess. I have a lot of respect for both Fr. Dymytry and the Greek Catholic Bishop of Muchachevo, Milan Sasik (He is part Slovak) who have striven against strong currents to preserve the 'old' ways of their peoples.

[Orest]

Interesting.  Maybe Zakarpattia can get its autonomy, promised but never delivered.

Sorry I don't see the connection with this story.  Please enlighten me.
Archbishop Christopher (Pulets) of Prague would not have any role in the granting of autonomy to the Orthodox Church in Zakarpatia.

Isa can correct me if I am in error, but I think he was not necessarily referring to religious autonomy but rather political autonomy. A subject which if unchecked can really roll out of control mighty fast......The comments on RISU.org following the article sort of give one a flavor of what might come from starting that discussion.

The interesting thing was that Moscow, the autocephalous head, was not involved directly in the chain autocephalous Met. Christophor-autonomous Met. Volodymyr-Dean of the Seminary in Zakarpattia. Met. Christophor can certainly support the granting of autonomy to the Orthodox Church of Zakarpattia, which remains staunchly Russophile (mostly to keep the Ukrainians at bay): the UOC-KP/UAOC barely has any presence, and that of the Vatican is outmatched by the Orthodox, something rare in Western Ukraine.

But the rank came from the EP not Moscow; although the MP was involved in the past.  There is nothing wrong with the Metropolitan of Kyiv (UOC-MP) inviting Archbishop Christopher (Pulets) of Prague to visit a seminary.

By the way I have been looking for a religious census or statistics of the Zakarpattia region.  Do you know where I can get recent info.

I have read this on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zakarpattya_oblast:

The largest denomination is the Ruthenian Catholic Church; the oblast's territory forms the church's Eparchy of Mukachevo; with 380,000 faithful, it has a solid majority of the oblast's churchgoers. Other smaller groups include Roman Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox, which are largely associated with minority groups; Roman Catholics and Protestants tend to be Hungarian or local Ukrainian, while the Eastern Orthodox are usually Romanians, Russians, or Ukrainians from further east.

This article is from 2005:
Kuzio, Taras "The Rusyn Question in Ukraine: sorting out fact from fiction". Canadian Review of Studies in Nationalism, XXXII, 2005

[ialmisry]

Interesting.  Maybe Zakarpattia can get its autonomy, promised but never delivered.

Sorry I don't see the connection with this story.  Please enlighten me.
Archbishop Christopher (Pulets) of Prague would not have any role in the granting of autonomy to the Orthodox Church in Zakarpatia.

Isa can correct me if I am in error, but I think he was not necessarily referring to religious autonomy but rather political autonomy. A subject which if unchecked can really roll out of control mighty fast......The comments on RISU.org following the article sort of give one a flavor of what might come from starting that discussion.

The interesting thing was that Moscow, the autocephalous head, was not involved directly in the chain autocephalous Met. Christophor-autonomous Met. Volodymyr-Dean of the Seminary in Zakarpattia. Met. Christophor can certainly support the granting of autonomy to the Orthodox Church of Zakarpattia, which remains staunchly Russophile (mostly to keep the Ukrainians at bay): the UOC-KP/UAOC barely has any presence, and that of the Vatican is outmatched by the Orthodox, something rare in Western Ukraine.

It is an interesting 'safe island' that the Orthodox migrated to in Zakarpattia as supporters of the UOP-MP. When Fr. Dymytry Sydor (pastor of the largest church in the region and political leader of the Rusyn national faction in Zakarpatia) was in the states for an extended tour about ten years ago he was just building the Holy Cross Cathedral in Uzhorod - with neither the blessing nor financial support of the Bishop governing that region. He spent some time with my father and several of the parishioners from the region during the early winter that year. He explained that they had a 'practical' relationship and understanding with the UOC-MP Bishop  to use Father's words.

In other words, the Slovak-Rusyn orthodox of Transcarpathia would be given breathing room from the advances of the Ukrainianizing factions in exchange for loyalty to Met. Volodomyr and the UOC-MP. This seems to be holding true in the counties close to the Slovak border from information brought back to the states by relatives (my brother in law visited relatives outside of Medzilaborce, Slovakia who lived on the Ukrainian side of the border and others who were Fr. Dymytry's parishioners) and other visitors. The Carpatho-Russian prostopenije remains in use and the services are distinct from the practices of the UOC or the MP per se. Although the Orthodox and the Greek Catholics of Muchacevo hardly get along even to this day, they seem to quietly practice the old adage about having common adversaries and making strange bedfellows. A confusing and 'Byzantine' (in the truest sense of the meaning of the word) mess. I have a lot of respect for both Fr. Dymytry and the Greek Catholic Bishop of Muchachevo, Milan Sasik (He is part Slovak) who have striven against strong currents to preserve the 'old' ways of their peoples.

Yes.  When confronted with two dangers, choose the one at the greatest distance.

[podkarpatska]

Interesting.  Maybe Zakarpattia can get its autonomy, promised but never delivered.

Sorry I don't see the connection with this story.  Please enlighten me.
Archbishop Christopher (Pulets) of Prague would not have any role in the granting of autonomy to the Orthodox Church in Zakarpatia.

Isa can correct me if I am in error, but I think he was not necessarily referring to religious autonomy but rather political autonomy. A subject which if unchecked can really roll out of control mighty fast......The comments on RISU.org following the article sort of give one a flavor of what might come from starting that discussion.

The interesting thing was that Moscow, the autocephalous head, was not involved directly in the chain autocephalous Met. Christophor-autonomous Met. Volodymyr-Dean of the Seminary in Zakarpattia. Met. Christophor can certainly support the granting of autonomy to the Orthodox Church of Zakarpattia, which remains staunchly Russophile (mostly to keep the Ukrainians at bay): the UOC-KP/UAOC barely has any presence, and that of the Vatican is outmatched by the Orthodox, something rare in Western Ukraine.

It is an interesting 'safe island' that the Orthodox migrated to in Zakarpattia as supporters of the UOP-MP. When Fr. Dymytry Sydor (pastor of the largest church in the region and political leader of the Rusyn national faction in Zakarpatia) was in the states for an extended tour about ten years ago he was just building the Holy Cross Cathedral in Uzhorod - with neither the blessing nor financial support of the Bishop governing that region. He spent some time with my father and several of the parishioners from the region during the early winter that year. He explained that they had a 'practical' relationship and understanding with the UOC-MP Bishop  to use Father's words.

In other words, the Slovak-Rusyn orthodox of Transcarpathia would be given breathing room from the advances of the Ukrainianizing factions in exchange for loyalty to Met. Volodomyr and the UOC-MP. This seems to be holding true in the counties close to the Slovak border from information brought back to the states by relatives (my brother in law visited relatives outside of Medzilaborce, Slovakia who lived on the Ukrainian side of the border and others who were Fr. Dymytry's parishioners) and other visitors. The Carpatho-Russian prostopenije remains in use and the services are distinct from the practices of the UOC or the MP per se. Although the Orthodox and the Greek Catholics of Muchacevo hardly get along even to this day, they seem to quietly practice the old adage about having common adversaries and making strange bedfellows. A confusing and 'Byzantine' (in the truest sense of the meaning of the word) mess. I have a lot of respect for both Fr. Dymytry and the Greek Catholic Bishop of Muchachevo, Milan Sasik (He is part Slovak) who have striven against strong currents to preserve the 'old' ways of their peoples.

Yes.  When confronted with two dangers, choose the one at the greatest distance.

I see that you have met your fair share of Rusyns - both BCC and Orthodox over the years! 

[ialmisry]

But the rank came from the EP not Moscow; although the MP was invovled in the past.

No, the rank came from Moscow for all three.  In the case of CLS, the EP was just catching up (after 47 years, and the Estonian incident interjected a little reality), it doesn't recognize Kiev's autonomy (there was something a while back about the EP refusing some communique from Met. Volodymyr, as it was not "through proper channels."  I don't recall what was the substance of Met. Volodymyr's message, but it was not anything earthshaking), and it has nothing to do with the seminary.  Though I don't know why where the rank of Met. Christofor coming from has any relevance.

There is nothing wrong with the Metropolitan of Kyiv (Uoc-MP) inviting chbishop Christopher (Pulets) of Prague to visit a seminary.

Didn't say that there was.

By the way I have been looking for a religious census or statistics of the Zakarpattia region.  Do you know where I can get the info.

I have read this on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zakarpattya_oblast:

The largest denomination is the Ruthenian Catholic Church; the oblast's territory forms the church's Eparchy of Mukachevo; with 380,000 faithful, it has a solid majority of the oblast's churchgoers. Other smaller groups include Roman Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox, which are largely associated wThis article does not have any statistics:
ith minority groups; Roman Catholics and Protestants tend to be Hungarian or local Ukrainian, while the Eastern Orthodox are usually Romanians, Russians, or Ukrainians from further east.

This article is from 2005:
Kuzio, Taras "The Rusyn Question in Ukraine: sorting out fact from fiction". Canadian Review of Studies in Nationalism, XXXII, 2005

I only have the parish numbers that RISU has:
http://risu.org.ua/en/index/resourses/statistics/ukr-reg2004
and the things the UOC/Muchakev and Muchakev-(Vat.) puts out.

[IreneOlinyk]

I only have the parish numbers that RISU has:
http://risu.org.ua/en/index/resourses/statistics/ukr-reg2004
and the things the UOC/Muchakev and Muchakev-(Vat.) puts out.
 
« Last Edit: Today at 04:53:55 PM by ialmisry » 
 

But those figures are from Jan. 2004, over 8 years ago.  Too much has happened since then.  Plus, the figures are only for the number of church buildings.  We cannot tell how many members a parish has.  For example in one village there could be one church with only 25 people in it and another church in the same village with 1,000 people as members.

[ialmisry]

I only have the parish numbers that RISU has:
http://risu.org.ua/en/index/resourses/statistics/ukr-reg2004
and the things the UOC/Muchakev and Muchakev-(Vat.) puts out.
 
« Last Edit: Today at 04:53:55 PM by ialmisry » 
 

But those figures are from Jan. 2004, over 8 years ago.  Too much has happened since then.

 
Like what?

Plus, the figures are only for the number of church buildings.  We cannot tell how many members a parish has.  For example in one village there could be one church with only 25 people in it and another church in the same village with 1,000 people as members.

I don't get the impression (especially with the lastest on the Pochayiv Lavra) that the dust over possession of Churches has settled, and so it would seem that the reason-an indication of local ecclesiastical loyalty and strenght-remains.

[Orest]

I only have the parish numbers that RISU has:
http://risu.org.ua/en/index/resourses/statistics/ukr-reg2004
and the things the UOC/Muchakev and Muchakev-(Vat.) puts out.
 
« Last Edit: Today at 04:53:55 PM by ialmisry » 
 

But those figures are from Jan. 2004, over 8 years ago.  Too much has happened since then.

 
Like what?

Plus, the figures are only for the number of church buildings.  We cannot tell how many members a parish has.  For example in one village there could be one church with only 25 people in it and another church in the same village with 1,000 people as members.

I don't get the impression (especially with the lastest on the Pochayiv Lavra) that the dust over possession of Churches has settled, and so it would seem that the reason-an indication of local ecclesiastical loyalty and strenght-remains.

8 year old figures are not accurate for 2012.  You said you had access to the vaitcan figures: can you supply them.  The Widipedia article cites the Greek Catholics as the majority.

The UOC-KP for 2010/2011 claims:
40 parishes

1 monastery

44 archpriests

42 priests

Cathedral: Uzhhorod: 12 Apostles

http://www.cerkva.info/uk/knygy/history.html

Your 2008 source has: UOC KP 18 / 2

[podkarpatska]

From anecdotal sources, it would seem that the Muchachevo Eparchy of the Greek Catholics has the upper hand. If you follow the youtube channel of the Eparchy, logostvuzhgorod, (http://www.youtube.com/user/logostvuzhgorod?feature=g-all-u ), one can see evidence of a vibrant Church which has preserved its distinct historical identity notwithstanding great cultural and political pressures during the course of the 20th century. This is not to diminish the work and presence of the Orthodox, but merely to state what appears to be the reality on the ground.

[arimethea]

I am finding this discussion to be very interesting since this is my family's historical diocese.

[ialmisry]

I only have the parish numbers that RISU has:
http://risu.org.ua/en/index/resourses/statistics/ukr-reg2004
and the things the UOC/Muchakev and Muchakev-(Vat.) puts out.
 
« Last Edit: Today at 04:53:55 PM by ialmisry »  
 

But those figures are from Jan. 2004, over 8 years ago.  Too much has happened since then.

Like what?

Plus, the figures are only for the number of church buildings.  We cannot tell how many members a parish has.  For example in one village there could be one church with only 25 people in it and another church in the same village with 1,000 people as members.

I don't get the impression (especially with the lastest on the Pochayiv Lavra) that the dust over possession of Churches has settled, and so it would seem that the reason-an indication of local ecclesiastical loyalty and strenght-remains.

8 year old figures are not accurate for 2012.  You said you had access to the vaitcan figures: can you supply them.  The Widipedia article cites the Greek Catholics as the majority.

The UOC-KP for 2010/2011 claims:
40 parishes

1 monastery

44 archpriests

42 priests

Cathedral: Uzhhorod: 12 Apostles

http://www.cerkva.info/uk/knygy/history.html

Your 2008 source has: UOC KP 18 / 2

For 1990, 2000, 2005, 2009, 2010, the Vatican's official stats for its Ukrainians and Ruthenians:
http://www.cnewa.us/source-images/Roberson-eastcath-statistics/eastcatholic-stat10.pdf

It has no figures for the Orthodox, and since the total population of Karpattia was about 1,240,000
http://ukrainetrek.com/zakarpattia-oblast
that leaves 860,000 unaccounted for, more than twice the numbers claimed for the Vatican's eparchy of Mukachevo.  The RISA gives 244 registered, 10 unregistered in 2004 for the Vatican.  The RISU show list the Ruthenian sui juris Mukachevo eparchy separately, but it seems to toe the UGCC's party line and lump Mukachevo in the latter.  It has, for 2011, 3,646 registered, 1 unregistered for the UGCC for the whole of Ukraine.  That is up from 3328/12 in 2004.

Even if the Eparchy got all 307 of the increase recorded for all of Ukraine, that would give it 661.  If we thought that the UOC did not grow, it would be outnumbered only by 87, and the Vatican would have the upperhand only by 59 over all the Orthodox (58, if you count the Old Believers).  That is, if we take as a given that the Orthodox did not increase.

The UOC had 11,952 registered, 91 unregistered in 2011 (up from 10,310/74 in 2004), the "KP" 4,371 registered, 30 unregistered in 2011 (up from 3,352/43 in 2004), and the "UAOC" 1,190 registered, 3 unregistered in 2011 (up from 1,154/2 in 2004 )

So no indication that the UGCC is gaining on the Orthodox, nor that the UOC has lost its place.  Btw, the Vatican figures show 5,159,633 for the UGCC (excluding Mukachevo, which numbered 320,000 according to its calculation), falling in 5 years to 4,268,577 (Mukachevo remaining at 320,000), approximately the time that the figures it gives broken down by oblasts, and the five years since then showing only an increase of 82,158, while according an increase of 60,000 to Mukachevo, i.e. 73% of the increase of the Vatican's eastern following in the whole of the rest of Ukraine.  Zakarpattia has nowhere near 73% of the total population of Ukraine, in either general terms nor terms of churchgoers.  So the wikipedia's statement "The largest denomination is the Ruthenian Catholic Church; the oblast's territory forms the church's Eparchy of Mukachevo; with 380,000 faithful, it has a solid majority of the oblast's churchgoers" is a little problematic, as is the statement "the Eastern Orthodox are usually Romanians, Russians, or Ukrainians from further east."  There were plenty of Orthodox, the fruit of St. Alexis Kobaliuk's labors among others, in Transcarpathia before Stalin annexed it to Ukraine.  In fact, their numbers were drew the Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia from WRO (to which St. Gorazd had been consecrated as bishop of Moravia and Silesia) back into the Eastern Rite first planted by SS. Cyril and Methodius in Moravia.  They had shown their Russophile tendencies under the Habsburgs, and were persecuted for them.  There is no need to import "Ukrainians from further East" to have an Orthodox Church in the oblast (except if one wanted to insist on a Ukrainian, rather than Ruthenian, one).

Since they all show an increase in religious organizations around 10%, it does not seem that the relative strengths in numbers have changed all that much.  And the fact that the UOC has organized the oblast into two dioceses (Mukachevo and Khust), as opposed to the Vatican's one and the "KP"'s one, would seem to indicate that it is holding its own.  Of course, its job isn't done until it is 100% of the population confess Orthodoxy, and struggle in it, but then that's not any different from the rest of us, whether in Moscow, Constantinople, Bucharest, Athens, Rome, Paris, London, Washington or Chicago.

[ialmisry]

From anecdotal sources, it would seem that the Muchachevo Eparchy of the Greek Catholics has the upper hand. If you follow the youtube channel of the Eparchy, logostvuzhgorod, (http://www.youtube.com/user/logostvuzhgorod?feature=g-all-u ), one can see evidence of a vibrant Church which has preserved its distinct historical identity notwithstanding great cultural and political pressures during the course of the 20th century. This is not to diminish the work and presence of the Orthodox, but merely to state what appears to be the reality on the ground.

I don't know about anecdotal evidence: most of those in the region I know from the other side of the border, where they preferred to worship on the lawn than go back into the church and submit back to the Vatican, when the Czechoslovak seized properties.  Would logostvuzhgorod show evidence of a vibrant Orthodox Church in the region?  I've dealt with too many of the followers of the Vatican who would play up the slightest evidence of its flock in the former Soviet block, and belittle the most obvious signs of life among the Orthodox (yes, catechesis is in order, but mass baptisms are not nothing, especially when such things would be lauded in the Czech republic, if they happened) to take that at face value.  Especially when I've been to Western Europe.

Btw, given their problems with the UGCC, I have far, far less problems with the Ruthenian Eparchy sui juris of Mukachevo, beyond its immediate submission to the Vatican, and its denial of the existence of the Orthodox Ruthenians.

[ialmisry]

I forgot the maps:

Its deaneries are here, on an interactive map of sorts:
http://www.m-eparchy.org.ua/blagochinnya/blagochinnya-mukachivskoyi-pravoslavnoyi-eparhiyi.html

No such deanary map

[podkarpatska]

From anecdotal sources, it would seem that the Muchachevo Eparchy of the Greek Catholics has the upper hand. If you follow the youtube channel of the Eparchy, logostvuzhgorod, (http://www.youtube.com/user/logostvuzhgorod?feature=g-all-u ), one can see evidence of a vibrant Church which has preserved its distinct historical identity notwithstanding great cultural and political pressures during the course of the 20th century. This is not to diminish the work and presence of the Orthodox, but merely to state what appears to be the reality on the ground.

I don't know about anecdotal evidence: most of those in the region I know from the other side of the border, where they preferred to worship on the lawn than go back into the church and submit back to the Vatican, when the Czechoslovak seized properties.  Would logostvuzhgorod show evidence of a vibrant Orthodox Church in the region?  I've dealt with too many of the followers of the Vatican who would play up the slightest evidence of its flock in the former Soviet block, and belittle the most obvious signs of life among the Orthodox (yes, catechesis is in order, but mass baptisms are not nothing, especially when such things would be lauded in the Czech republic, if they happened) to take that at face value.  Especially when I've been to Western Europe.

Btw, given their problems with the UGCC, I have far, far less problems with the Ruthenian Eparchy sui juris of Mukachevo, beyond its immediate submission to the Vatican, and its denial of the existence of the Orthodox Ruthenians.

I am not defending the EC's, just trying to be accurate regarding them. Outside of Ladimirova, Slovakia and its surroundings, most OCA and ACROD faithful with family there have more EC relatives than Orthodox. I have met Archbishop Jan of the Orthodox diocese of Presov on several of his visits to the states and he would concur that the Orthodox are in the minority on the Slovak side of the border.

Several months back the MP posted a beautiful link to Orthodox churches in Zakarpatia and there are a number of independent videos posted from time to time. But on neither the Slovak nor the Ukrainian side of the border have the Orthodox utilized the internet as effectively as have the EC's.  At least we American cousins at ACROD and the UOC-USA have first class websites with many multimedia links and we outshine our American EC counterparts by far in that regard!

[ialmisry]

From anecdotal sources, it would seem that the Muchachevo Eparchy of the Greek Catholics has the upper hand. If you follow the youtube channel of the Eparchy, logostvuzhgorod, (http://www.youtube.com/user/logostvuzhgorod?feature=g-all-u ), one can see evidence of a vibrant Church which has preserved its distinct historical identity notwithstanding great cultural and political pressures during the course of the 20th century. This is not to diminish the work and presence of the Orthodox, but merely to state what appears to be the reality on the ground.

I don't know about anecdotal evidence: most of those in the region I know from the other side of the border, where they preferred to worship on the lawn than go back into the church and submit back to the Vatican, when the Czechoslovak seized properties.  Would logostvuzhgorod show evidence of a vibrant Orthodox Church in the region?  I've dealt with too many of the followers of the Vatican who would play up the slightest evidence of its flock in the former Soviet block, and belittle the most obvious signs of life among the Orthodox (yes, catechesis is in order, but mass baptisms are not nothing, especially when such things would be lauded in the Czech republic, if they happened) to take that at face value.  Especially when I've been to Western Europe.

Btw, given their problems with the UGCC, I have far, far less problems with the Ruthenian Eparchy sui juris of Mukachevo, beyond its immediate submission to the Vatican, and its denial of the existence of the Orthodox Ruthenians.

I am not defending the EC's, just trying to be accurate regarding them. Outside of Ladimirova, Slovakia and its surroundings, most OCA and ACROD faithful with family there have more EC relatives than Orthodox. I have met Archbishop Jan of the Orthodox diocese of Presov on several of his visits to the states and he would concur that the Orthodox are in the minority on the Slovak side of the border.

I would too.  Most of the Russophiles ended up in Transcarpathia, for a variety of reasons, and those who followed the Vatican remained in Slovakia, for a variety of reasons, including those that led to the rise of the Greek-Catholic Church in Slovakia.

Several months back the MP posted a beautiful link to Orthodox churches in Zakarpatia and there are a number of independent videos posted from time to time. But on neither the Slovak nor the Ukrainian side of the border have the Orthodox utilized the internet as effectively as have the EC's.  At least we American cousins at ACROD and the UOC-USA have first class websites with many multimedia links and we outshine our American EC counterparts by far in that regard!

I have to recuse myself.

[podkarpatska]

From anecdotal sources, it would seem that the Muchachevo Eparchy of the Greek Catholics has the upper hand. If you follow the youtube channel of the Eparchy, logostvuzhgorod, (http://www.youtube.com/user/logostvuzhgorod?feature=g-all-u ), one can see evidence of a vibrant Church which has preserved its distinct historical identity notwithstanding great cultural and political pressures during the course of the 20th century. This is not to diminish the work and presence of the Orthodox, but merely to state what appears to be the reality on the ground.

I don't know about anecdotal evidence: most of those in the region I know from the other side of the border, where they preferred to worship on the lawn than go back into the church and submit back to the Vatican, when the Czechoslovak seized properties.  Would logostvuzhgorod show evidence of a vibrant Orthodox Church in the region?  I've dealt with too many of the followers of the Vatican who would play up the slightest evidence of its flock in the former Soviet block, and belittle the most obvious signs of life among the Orthodox (yes, catechesis is in order, but mass baptisms are not nothing, especially when such things would be lauded in the Czech republic, if they happened) to take that at face value.  Especially when I've been to Western Europe.

Btw, given their problems with the UGCC, I have far, far less problems with the Ruthenian Eparchy sui juris of Mukachevo, beyond its immediate submission to the Vatican, and its denial of the existence of the Orthodox Ruthenians.

I am not defending the EC's, just trying to be accurate regarding them. Outside of Ladimirova, Slovakia and its surroundings, most OCA and ACROD faithful with family there have more EC relatives than Orthodox. I have met Archbishop Jan of the Orthodox diocese of Presov on several of his visits to the states and he would concur that the Orthodox are in the minority on the Slovak side of the border.

I would too.  Most of the Russophiles ended up in Transcarpathia, for a variety of reasons, and those who followed the Vatican remained in Slovakia, for a variety of reasons, including those that led to the rise of the Greek-Catholic Church in Slovakia.

Several months back the MP posted a beautiful link to Orthodox churches in Zakarpatia and there are a number of independent videos posted from time to time. But on neither the Slovak nor the Ukrainian side of the border have the Orthodox utilized the internet as effectively as have the EC's.  At least we American cousins at ACROD and the UOC-USA have first class websites with many multimedia links and we outshine our American EC counterparts by far in that regard!

I have to recuse myself.

Russophilism was a common thread in east Slovakia and Zakarpatta (both then part of the dual empire of Austria and Hungary) dating back to the mid 19th century. Fr. Alex Duchnovych - a part ethnic Russian and a Greek Catholic priest was the voice of the Rusyn national movement in the mid 19th century and was something of a panslavist. Given the hatred of the Magyar oppression near the end of their rule, the Tsarists had many agents working both in the region and in America fueling anti-Magyar politics and using the religious turmoil to their advantage by funding Orthodox missions and construction in America as well as in Europe at the time. For their efforts, the OCA has much for which to be thankful to this day.

WW1 and the Revolution put a lid on some of that and the infusion of Russian funding, but the resettlement of Russian monks and hierarchs to Ladimirova in Slovakia after the civil war did put a Russian spiritual presence in the lands. Many wonderful monks came to Orthoodxy from the region and one became the saintly and honored +Laurus, the leader of ROCOR who led the reunion with the MP some years ago. After the war, many Rusyns willingly relocated to areas of Ukraine, Siberia and the Crimea to substitute for ethnic Germans and other non-slavs who went - well somewhere bad I suppose.

When the Iron Curtain collapsed many of these former Czecho-Slovaks, including a large contingent of my family came back to Slovakia from the former USSR to reunite with their family members who remained in Slovakia or who were relocated to Moravia to replace the Germans following the war. Most of the returnees were fully Orthodox by now and have adapted to their new settings - hence growth within the Orthodox Church there and the reason for why the Orthodox Church in Slovakia has more in common with the OCA these days than with either the  ACROD or the UOC.

This history is why I have a second cousin who is a Greek Catholic priest in Plsen, Czech republic and another who is a graduate seminarian and part of the growing Orthodox community in southern Poland, another who is a Sister Servant of Mary nun in Rome, a Greek Catholic cantor in east Slovakia, an Orthodox seminarian in America etc.....  So when I seem annoying for reminding all of you that the situation there is nuanced and not all that clear and complicated its because - well, because it's complicated! At least we all sort of get along these days!

[ialmisry]

I forgot the maps:

Its deaneries are here, on an interactive map of sorts:
http://www.m-eparchy.org.ua/blagochinnya/blagochinnya-mukachivskoyi-pravoslavnoyi-eparhiyi.html

No such deanary map

For comparison, the oblasts of Ukraine

I'm curious as to why Odessa, Mykolaiv and Kharkhiv only have one diocese each.

[Cavaradossi]

I forgot the maps:

[kijabeboy03]

"In fact, their numbers were drew the Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia from WRO (to which St. Gorazd had been consecrated as bishop of Moravia and Silesia) back into the Eastern Rite first planted by SS. Cyril and Methodius in Moravia."

Didn't Sts. Cyril and Methodius labor under Rome and plant Roman Rite communities? I was under the impression that that is where the Slavonic translations of the old Mass (the "Glagolitic Mass") used in the northwestern Balkans through the 19th century came from.

[Schultz]

"In fact, their numbers were drew the Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia from WRO (to which St. Gorazd had been consecrated as bishop of Moravia and Silesia) back into the Eastern Rite first planted by SS. Cyril and Methodius in Moravia."

Didn't Sts. Cyril and Methodius labor under Rome and plant Roman Rite communities? I was under the impression that that is where the Slavonic translations of the old Mass (the "Glagolitic Mass") used in the northwestern Balkans through the 19th century came from.

Nope.  The king of Greater Moravia, Rastislav, expelled Roman missionaries (in an effort to assert political independence from the Frankish king whose assistance largely set him up in the first place) and turned to the Emperor and Patriarch in Constantinople for political and spiritual support, respectively.

They did devise the Glagolitic alphabet, though, which was then used to write down the Roman Rite Mass in the native tongues where it was used.

[podkarpatska]

"In fact, their numbers were drew the Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia from WRO (to which St. Gorazd had been consecrated as bishop of Moravia and Silesia) back into the Eastern Rite first planted by SS. Cyril and Methodius in Moravia."

Didn't Sts. Cyril and Methodius labor under Rome and plant Roman Rite communities? I was under the impression that that is where the Slavonic translations of the old Mass (the "Glagolitic Mass") used in the northwestern Balkans through the 19th century came from.

Nope.  The king of Greater Moravia, Rastislav, expelled Roman missionaries (in an effort to assert political independence from the Frankish king whose assistance largely set him up in the first place) and turned to the Emperor and Patriarch in Constantinople for political and spiritual support, respectively.

They did devise the Glagolitic alphabet, though, which was then used to write down the Roman Rite Mass in the native tongues where it was used.

We have to keep in mind that the Missionary Saints were representing the undivided church in the 9th century. Constantinople had been decimated by the iconoclast struggles over the previous centuries and the onslaught of the Islamic forces was beginning to take its toll.....The Franks had their own plans and we know how history worked out.... Both the Latin Slavs and the Eastern ones may rightfully claim and honor the Saintly brothers for their efforts in bringing the Gospel to their lands. (Although they didn't really directly influence Rus. Vladimir was later.

[Schultz]

"In fact, their numbers were drew the Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia from WRO (to which St. Gorazd had been consecrated as bishop of Moravia and Silesia) back into the Eastern Rite first planted by SS. Cyril and Methodius in Moravia."

Didn't Sts. Cyril and Methodius labor under Rome and plant Roman Rite communities? I was under the impression that that is where the Slavonic translations of the old Mass (the "Glagolitic Mass") used in the northwestern Balkans through the 19th century came from.

Nope.  The king of Greater Moravia, Rastislav, expelled Roman missionaries (in an effort to assert political independence from the Frankish king whose assistance largely set him up in the first place) and turned to the Emperor and Patriarch in Constantinople for political and spiritual support, respectively.

They did devise the Glagolitic alphabet, though, which was then used to write down the Roman Rite Mass in the native tongues where it was used.

We have to keep in mind that the Missionary Saints were representing the undivided church in the 9th century. Constantinople had been decimated by the iconoclast struggles over the previous centuries and the onslaught of the Islamic forces was beginning to take its toll.....The Franks had their own plans and we know how history worked out.... Both the Latin Slavs and the Eastern ones may rightfully claim and honor the Saintly brothers for their efforts in bringing the Gospel to their lands. (Although they didn't really directly influence Rus. Vladimir was later.

Indeed, hence my comment that the expulsion of the Roman missionaries was more due to political forces than anything else.  Interestingly, their feast day was not added to the universal Roman calendar until the late 19th century.

[podkarpatska]

"In fact, their numbers were drew the Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia from WRO (to which St. Gorazd had been consecrated as bishop of Moravia and Silesia) back into the Eastern Rite first planted by SS. Cyril and Methodius in Moravia."

Didn't Sts. Cyril and Methodius labor under Rome and plant Roman Rite communities? I was under the impression that that is where the Slavonic translations of the old Mass (the "Glagolitic Mass") used in the northwestern Balkans through the 19th century came from.

Nope.  The king of Greater Moravia, Rastislav, expelled Roman missionaries (in an effort to assert political independence from the Frankish king whose assistance largely set him up in the first place) and turned to the Emperor and Patriarch in Constantinople for political and spiritual support, respectively.

They did devise the Glagolitic alphabet, though, which was then used to write down the Roman Rite Mass in the native tongues where it was used.

We have to keep in mind that the Missionary Saints were representing the undivided church in the 9th century. Constantinople had been decimated by the iconoclast struggles over the previous centuries and the onslaught of the Islamic forces was beginning to take its toll.....The Franks had their own plans and we know how history worked out.... Both the Latin Slavs and the Eastern ones may rightfully claim and honor the Saintly brothers for their efforts in bringing the Gospel to their lands. (Although they didn't really directly influence Rus. Vladimir was later.

Indeed, hence my comment that the expulsion of the Roman missionaries was more due to political forces than anything else.  Interestingly, their feast day was not added to the universal Roman calendar until the late 19th century.

Although they certainly were commemorated locally by the Czechs and the Slovaks long before that time.

[ialmisry]

"In fact, their numbers were drew the Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia from WRO (to which St. Gorazd had been consecrated as bishop of Moravia and Silesia) back into the Eastern Rite first planted by SS. Cyril and Methodius in Moravia."

Didn't Sts. Cyril and Methodius labor under Rome and plant Roman Rite communities? I was under the impression that that is where the Slavonic translations of the old Mass (the "Glagolitic Mass") used in the northwestern Balkans through the 19th century came from.

Nope.  The king of Greater Moravia, Rastislav, expelled Roman missionaries (in an effort to assert political independence from the Frankish king whose assistance largely set him up in the first place) and turned to the Emperor and Patriarch in Constantinople for political and spiritual support, respectively.

They did devise the Glagolitic alphabet, though, which was then used to write down the Roman Rite Mass in the native tongues where it was used.

We have to keep in mind that the Missionary Saints were representing the undivided church in the 9th century. Constantinople had been decimated by the iconoclast struggles over the previous centuries and the onslaught of the Islamic forces was beginning to take its toll.....The Franks had their own plans and we know how history worked out.... Both the Latin Slavs and the Eastern ones may rightfully claim and honor the Saintly brothers for their efforts in bringing the Gospel to their lands. (Although they didn't really directly influence Rus. Vladimir was later.

Once finally expelled in suppressed by the Dukes of Bohemia (1172), they went to Kiev.  When the Slavonic monks of Sazava, Prague (f. 1032) were expelled earlier (1057, they returned to Bohemia 5 years later) from Bohemia after the Vatican's schism, they took refuge in Hungary, in Orthodox monastery at Visegrad, on the Danube across from Slovakia, founded by King Andrew I of Hungary, who was baptized at Kiev and married St. Vladimir's granddaughter.  He also founded a monastery at Tihany, his burial place, deep in Hungary, for Rus' monks.  Archaelogy has uncovered remains of St. Methodius' mission at Przemyshl/Peremyshl, which enters history when Nestor records St. Vladimir taking it from Poland in 981.  The saint's disciple, St. Gorazd the Moravian, lingered on next door in Cracow and Little Poland, evangelized by St. Methodius himself according to his Vita, after the expulsion from Moravia.

[Alpo]

Btw, does anyone know what's their policy on confession before communing and what is their liturgical language?  I'm visiting Prague on May and it would be nice to attend some service there.

[mike]

I've attended a baptism in Prague and it was in Czech.

[podkarpatska]

I've attended a baptism in Prague and it was in Czech.

In Slovakia, the predominant liturgical language appears to be Slavonic although that is not uniform.

[ialmisry]

I've attended a baptism in Prague and it was in Czech.

In Slovakia, the predominant liturgical language appears to be Slavonic although that is not uniform.

That is what I remember in Bratislava, but that was just before communism fell.

[mike]

When I was in Eastern Slovakia it indeed was in Church Slavonic but AFAIR correctly in Prague services are in vernacular Czech.

[podkarpatska]

When I was in Eastern Slovakia it indeed was in Church Slavonic but AFAIR correctly in Prague services are in vernacular Czech.

I have heard that it is a 'tactical' decision not to use Slovak or Rusyn vernacular in that the Greek Catholics in Slovakia, unlike their cousins in Transcarpathia, have replaced the Slavonic. Personally I think that is shortsighted as both of us here in the states (Orthodox and Greek Catholic) have used English for almost a generation and a half, but that's what I understand to be the case there.

[Alpo]

Let's play an armchair sociologist instead of an armchair theologian for a change.

When I was in Eastern Slovakia it indeed was in Church Slavonic but AFAIR correctly in Prague services are in vernacular Czech.

I have heard that it is a 'tactical' decision not to use Slovak or Rusyn vernacular in that the Greek Catholics in Slovakia, unlike their cousins in Transcarpathia, have replaced the Slavonic. Personally I think that is shortsighted as both of us here in the states (Orthodox and Greek Catholic) have used English for almost a generation and a half, but that's what I understand to be the case there.

I don't know anything about these people but Could it be some kind East-West thing aka the Czech won't use Slavonic since it's too Eastern European/Russian whereas the Slovaks are self-admittedly Eastern?

[mike]

IMO maybe the reason is that in Slovakia there are cradles mostly that are used to Church Slavonic, and in the Czech Republic there are mostly converts (direct and their descendants) and immigrants.