Caelestinus
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« on: April 01, 2012, 03:16:12 AM » |
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I have no doubt that the Sarum Rite is a legal rite. But why are some of you so much in favour of it? Most of you live on the other site of the Ocean, far beyond the borders of the diocese of Salisbury..
Is it because you have as U.S. citizens no real ecclesiastical roots, because you never lived within a canonical territory, never belonged (at least virtually) to a ancient church of this or that sedes?
And what's so special about it that you prefer it?
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Alpo
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« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2012, 05:24:37 AM » |
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What's so special about Byzantine rite? Most of us live far away from Moscow and Costantinople.
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Melodist
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« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2012, 08:12:49 AM » |
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I'm waiting for +Mathias of Chicago to develop a "Cincinnati rite" to be used in my parish.
I was thinking we could change the reponse after the gospel from "Glory to Thee, O Lord, Glory to Thee!" to "Can I gat an amen!" to be more culturally relevant.
But to answer the OP, I think it's because it's a reflection of western liturgical culture that isn't currently directly identified with a communion outside of Orthodoxy.
Just a thought.
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Fr.Aidan
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« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2012, 09:43:09 PM » |
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Some reasons to use Sarum for a Western Rite:
- It's the most typical expression there is, of the pre-Reformation Roman rite and was the most widespread form of Roman rite. So if you want to be pre-Protestant Reformation in your liturgy, it just presents itself and drops into your lap.
- It has a complete set of service books (both text and music) easy to use, so no reconstructions or archaeological knowledge is necessary
- It is a form of Roman rite which is particularly apt, theologically speaking, to Orthodox Christianity. It very much stresses the role of the Holy Spirit in the Eucharist, which in many forms of the Roman rite is not an error per se, but maybe a weak point. But the Sarum is strong on that. There is more theological teaching and content, more Christology, more didactic elements, in the Sarum, such as make the Byz. rite so beautiful and deep.
- It is a rather simple form of the pre-Protestant Reformation Roman rite. There are other forms from that period which are more complex, but most WR Orthodox are in small missions, so it's a pretty good match.
- It strikes many Eastern Orthodox as having a more Orthodox "feel." That's so subjective, though, that I can't really speak to that or justify it. But I can vouch for this reaction on the part of Eastern Orthodox who have attended a Sarum service, and I've met hundreds over the years.
- It has a very beautiful ceremonial, so if you have come to appreciate the beauty and majestic ritual of the ER, you don't have to feel these things are missing in your WR (but they are never entirely missing, no matter what WR one uses).
- It has a lot of components that make for good "popular liturgy," if you will - it is colorful and attractive. Processions, vestments, special ceremonies in holy week and at Christmas, appeal well to the makeup of human nature. People like shiny things and processions!
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dcointin
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« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2012, 06:58:31 PM » |
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Fr. Aidan,
Would this be an appropriate place to address questions and concerns about the Liturgy of St. Tikhon? I've just become a member of a wester-rite parish which uses this liturgy and would appreciate someone to dialogue with about it.
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« Last Edit: April 16, 2012, 06:58:45 PM by dcointin »
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Fr.Aidan
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« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2012, 07:43:56 PM » |
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Christ is risen!
I don't see why a little thread drift would hurt. Of course, I did not start this thread and have no say over the thread.
I'm no expert on the St. Tikhon, but I'm sure someone here will be!
Happy Bright Week.
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Punch
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« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2012, 10:24:44 PM » |
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What's so special about Byzantine rite? Most of us live far away from Moscow and Costantinople.
This! |
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Orthodox only because of God and His Russians.
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primuspilus
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« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2012, 11:36:58 AM » |
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Fr. Aidan,
Would this be an appropriate place to address questions and concerns about the Liturgy of St. Tikhon? I've just become a member of a wester-rite parish which uses this liturgy and would appreciate someone to dialogue with about it.
We use the Liturgy of St. Tikhon at our Church. Althoguh Im no priest, I have studied it quite a bit. Whats up? PP |
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"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great
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dcointin
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« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2012, 12:09:04 PM » |
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I would like to know what elements of the Liturgy of St. Tikhon came *after* Henry VIII and the English Reformation. Thank you!
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primuspilus
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« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2012, 12:40:47 PM » |
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I would like to know what elements of the Liturgy of St. Tikhon came *after* Henry VIII and the English Reformation. Thank you!
Well, thats kind of a weird question as the entire liturgy came about because a group of Episcopalians wanted to join the Church at the turn of the century. Their liturgy was based on the 1892 Book of Common Prayer. St. Tikhon submitted the liturgy to Moscow who made reccommendations, but since those Episcopaians decided not to join, the issue died until the 1970's (the actual date escapes me). I would also note that neither Moscow nor St. Tikhon gave "the final o.k." for the liturgy. In the 1970's the issue came up when the Western Rite Vicatiate was getting off the ground (it had a different name, but I dont know it) and they took the reccommendations of Moscow all those years ago, and made the changes. So the short answer is, "all of it is after King Henry". However, the Book of Common Prayer, and conversely, the Liturgy of St. Tikhon is all based, originally off of the Tridentine Mass, which was created in the 16th century. PP P.S.The liturgy itself is soaked with direct quotes and many many references to scripture, and ya cant go wrong with that  |
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"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great
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dcointin
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« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2012, 01:07:43 PM » |
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Thank you for the response. My reason for asking this question is that it seems inappropriate to use a liturgy which developed in a Protestant context, so I wanted to know how much of it pre-dated that time. I have absolutely nothing against the western-rite in principle, and am a convert from Lutheranism so my roots are thoroughly western. Is the Sarum rite used in ROCOR different in this regard?
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primuspilus
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« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2012, 01:10:25 PM » |
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My reason for asking this question is that it seems inappropriate to use a liturgy which developed in a Protestant context I understand your concern. However, people far wiser, and far holier than most made this liturgy orthodox, and Orthodox. I have absolutely nothing against the western-rite in principle, and am a convert from Lutheranism so my roots are thoroughly western I was raised Lutheran and was educated in Lutheran school for a few years. I udnerstand  PP |
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"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great
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Alpo
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« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2012, 01:14:59 PM » |
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My reason for asking this question is that it seems inappropriate to use a liturgy which developed in a Protestant context I understand your concern. However, people far wiser, and far holier than most made this liturgy orthodox, and Orthodox. People far wiser and far holier than most have had serious theological flaws. We embrace the men but not necessarily their opinions. |
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« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 01:15:15 PM by Alpo »
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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2012, 01:17:50 PM » |
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What's so special about Byzantine rite? Most of us live far away from Moscow and Costantinople.
The Byzantine rite is not just a liturgical-something-or-other, but moreso a state of mind. |
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Optimist: Throw enough ideas at the wall and one is bound to stick.
Pessimist: Throw enough poo at the wall and the room is bound to stink.
Realist: You don't really need to throw things at walls to solve problems.
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primuspilus
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« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2012, 01:22:31 PM » |
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My reason for asking this question is that it seems inappropriate to use a liturgy which developed in a Protestant context I understand your concern. However, people far wiser, and far holier than most made this liturgy orthodox, and Orthodox. People far wiser and far holier than most have had serious theological flaws. We embrace the men but not necessarily their opinions. Thats true as well. As for me, the Liturgy was made orthodox, the Church says its ok, so does my Bishop and my priest. Thats good for me PP |
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"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great
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dcointin
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« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2012, 01:25:07 PM » |
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My reason for asking this question is that it seems inappropriate to use a liturgy which developed in a Protestant context I understand your concern. However, people far wiser, and far holier than most made this liturgy orthodox, and Orthodox. I have absolutely nothing against the western-rite in principle, and am a convert from Lutheranism so my roots are thoroughly western I was raised Lutheran and was educated in Lutheran school for a few years. I udnerstand PP May I ask which Lutheran church? I was LC-MS, and attended Lutheran high school and college. |
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Alpo
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« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2012, 01:27:01 PM » |
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The Byzantine rite is not just a liturgical-something-or-other, but moreso a state of mind.
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Fr.Aidan
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« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2012, 01:42:28 PM » |
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In the St. Tikhon or Anglican Rite eucharist, what was composed during, and as a process of, the Protestant Reformation, was the entire anaphora or eucharistic canon. However, some texts from the pre-Schism Western Liturgy were retained, such as "The Lord be with you," and its response "And with thy spirit." The Lord's Prayer was, similarly, retained. And in the editing which was done to produce the first-ever St. Tikhon Liturgy (1979), even more portions of pre-Schism Liturgy were added, such as the Glory be to God on high (greater doxology). This much, covers the fixed texts of that service. There are also the changeable texts of that service, many of which were retained from the pre-Schism forms. Thus, on Easter Day, a St. Tikhon parish might sing at the introit the same text ("I am risen, and I am still with thee, alleluia," etc.) that they did in the year 950 in England.
In the Sarum Mass, as approved for use in the Russian Orthodox Church in Sept. 2008, 100% of the Mass texts date back to the West's Orthodox period (pre-1054). That statement covers the fixed texts of that service. Of the changeable or proper texts, it's about 98 or 99% from pre-Schism times, with a few proper texts from after 1054, such as the sequentia to the Holy Cross, "Laudes crucis attollamus," which is 12th century in origin. (A sequentia is a poetic and didactic composition for a notable feast, sung just before the Gospel reading while all the bells peal. They were done in the Roman rite from about 850 until about 1600, and a handful were retained even after 1600.
The Sarum Mass is simply the Roman rite, in the form which was most prevalent and typical across Western Europe, from before 1054 and up to the Protestant Reformation.
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dcointin
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« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2012, 01:50:51 PM » |
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The Byzantine rite is not just a liturgical-something-or-other, but moreso a state of mind.
Why do Old Believers always look so angry! |
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Fr.Aidan
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« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2012, 01:54:12 PM » |
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These two forms can be compared and contrasted, as they are both available on the internet for free. The St. Tikhon Liturgy is at http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy2/sasb.pdf (just click on the table of contents to the left). The Sarum Mass is at http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/SarumMass2011c.pdf. I hope this is helpful. And this is all written with complete respect for Orthodox Christians of whatever liturgical rite. Let there be no hint that anyone is questioning an Orthodox brother or sister's faith or piety based merely on the rite of his or her parish. We are one Church. |
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Fr.Aidan
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« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2012, 01:55:46 PM » |
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None of the men in that picture appear angry to me at all. In fact, the two on the right are sporting expressions which are downright jovial.
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dcointin
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« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2012, 02:03:56 PM » |
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These two forms can be compared and contrasted, as they are both available on the internet for free. The St. Tikhon Liturgy is at http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy2/sasb.pdf (just click on the table of contents to the left). The Sarum Mass is at http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/SarumMass2011c.pdf. I hope this is helpful. And this is all written with complete respect for Orthodox Christians of whatever liturgical rite. Let there be no hint that anyone is questioning an Orthodox brother or sister's faith or piety based merely on the rite of his or her parish. We are one Church. Many thanks father, this is exactly the kind of resource I was looking for! |
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Punch
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« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2012, 02:04:47 PM » |
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The Byzantine rite is not just a liturgical-something-or-other, but moreso a state of mind.
Why do Old Believers always look so angry! I do not think that they look at all angry. In fact, one even looks like he is smiling. |
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Orthodox only because of God and His Russians.
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primuspilus
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« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2012, 02:15:16 PM » |
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The Byzantine rite is not just a liturgical-something-or-other, but moreso a state of mind.
Why do Old Believers always look so angry! I do not think that they look at all angry. In fact, one even looks like he is smiling. Smiling? Is outrage!!!! PP |
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"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great
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dcointin
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« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2012, 02:28:07 PM » |
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Perhaps I'm misinterpreting their expression. I blame the beards! (which I'm jealous that I can't grow properly btw)
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Alpo
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« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2012, 02:36:25 PM » |
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For the record, I have nothing against Old Believers or Old Rite Orthodox and their venerable traditions. I'd love to attend an Old Rite liturgy some day. But I cant help chuckling while looking at that picture since it is fairly absurd from my cultural perspective.
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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2012, 03:13:33 PM » |
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The Byzantine rite is not just a liturgical-something-or-other, but moreso a state of mind.
Why do Old Believers always look so angry! If you had to go through what they had to, you'd be angry, too! |
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2012, 03:16:00 PM » |
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For the record, I have nothing against Old Believers or Old Rite Orthodox and their venerable traditions. I'd love to attend an Old Rite liturgy some day. But I cant help chuckling while looking at that picture since it is fairly absurd from my cultural perspective.
Do you have something against the Green Bay Packers? (It looks like the Old Believer on the right is wearing a Green Bay vest of some sort. Note the distinctive G.) |
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
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primuspilus
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« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2012, 03:19:18 PM » |
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For the record, I have nothing against Old Believers or Old Rite Orthodox and their venerable traditions. I'd love to attend an Old Rite liturgy some day. But I cant help chuckling while looking at that picture since it is fairly absurd from my cultural perspective.
Do you have something against the Green Bay Packers? (It looks like the Old Believer on the right is wearing a Green Bay vest of some sort. Note the distinctive G.) If he were really Orthodox, he'd be wearing a Zenit St. Petersburg jacket. PP |
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"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great
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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2012, 04:14:47 PM » |
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The Byzantine rite is not just a liturgical-something-or-other, but moreso a state of mind.
I meant a productive, positive, moral, and theologically-sound state of mind |
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Optimist: Throw enough ideas at the wall and one is bound to stick.
Pessimist: Throw enough poo at the wall and the room is bound to stink.
Realist: You don't really need to throw things at walls to solve problems.
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