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Offline jobin219

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Charismatism and the church in Malankara (and its diaspora)
« on: February 21, 2015, 08:06:10 AM »
Hello everyone. I know what I'm about to say might get me into the bad books of many people here, but could charismatism play a positive role in the Orthodox Church?

I am speaking more from the perspective of the Malanakara Church because that's the only first hand experience I have. The number of people leaving the two traditional Orthodox Churches for pentecostal groups is increasing at an alarming rate.

Forgive me for generalizing, but I think many of us here on the board belong to the "Orthodox or Death" crew. Honestly, we don't see any alternative, and our faith is so engrained within us, we couldn't even contemplate being pentecostal. But the common church goer, and us differ in many ways.

They aren't satisfied any more with merely a Holy Qurbono once a week. They crave something much more, much deeper. Or atleast what the feel is much deeper, a connection that they haven't yet experienced in church. The emergence of so many pentecostal televangelists and television channels in Kerala, and the ever expanding diaspora population has only widened the gap between the traditional generation and those exposed to new-age and charismatic pastors.   

But that departure is seen far less in the Syro-Malabar Catholic church. To me it seems that the emergence of charismatic Catholic priests, has played a key role in preserving Catholics within their churches. I think many of us may be familiar with the countless programs on Shalom TV and the work of Fr. Naickomparambil (Potta Achen) of the Divine Retreat Centre and other similar gospel focused Catholic spiritual organizations.

Our churches do have similar setups, and are slowly using television and social media to increase its presence in the daily lives of members. But is there something more that can be done. What possible solutions exist?

Ps: I hope schismatic arguments will not enter this thread. While I agree and acknowledge that the feud between the two churches has been a factor in the spiritual emptiness which has allowed conniving pastors to entrap our people, and the wasted resources could be better utilized in promoting our faith, I would like if people only addressed the primary topic of what can be done to save Orthodoxy in Malankara.

"As far as possible never do evil to anyone: or it will ruin you, your children and your house. Hold on steadfastly to prayer, fasting and works of charity. Do them with faith and devotion ".
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Charismatism and the church in Malankara (and its diaspora)
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2015, 02:00:22 PM »
Hello everyone. I know what I'm about to say might get me into the bad books of many people here, but could charismatism play a positive role in the Orthodox Church?

Beware of Antonious Nikolas.  :)

Quote
I am speaking more from the perspective of the Malanakara Church because that's the only first hand experience I have. The number of people leaving the two traditional Orthodox Churches for pentecostal groups is increasing at an alarming rate.

Forgive me for generalizing, but I think many of us here on the board belong to the "Orthodox or Death" crew. Honestly, we don't see any alternative, and our faith is so engrained within us, we couldn't even contemplate being pentecostal. But the common church goer, and us differ in many ways.

They aren't satisfied any more with merely a Holy Qurbono once a week. They crave something much more, much deeper. Or atleast what the feel is much deeper
, a connection that they haven't yet experienced in church. The emergence of so many pentecostal televangelists and television channels in Kerala, and the ever expanding diaspora population has only widened the gap between the traditional generation and those exposed to new-age and charismatic pastors.   

I could forgive you for generalising, but this is something more than that.  It's erroneous.  Still forgivable.  :)

I don't think anyone here "doesn't see any alternative" to Orthodoxy.  We see the alternatives and have serious reasons why we believe they are wrong.  Some of us left those alternatives to become Orthodox. 

You claim that the common churchgoer wants something more from their practice of the faith that we don't, as if we are happy to go to church and perform our rituals or watch the service and not get anything out of it and that's enough for us.  I know there are Indians and other Orthodox who are like that, but you are mistaken if you think most of us here are like that.  We also want a deeper relationship with God and with his body.  But we want that in the way God intended for us, and we are convinced it is not to be found outside of Orthodoxy. 

Finally, your words in blue are key.  Does the common churchgoer want a deep relationship with God or does he want what he thinks and feels is a deep relationship with God, whether or not that relationship is there in reality?  This is of fundamental importance.  All the people I've known who have left Orthodoxy for "charismatism" or other forms of Protestantism did so because they presumed they should feel a certain way when drawing close to God and did not take the effort to learn what the Church has to teach about what a true relationship with God is, how it does and does not feel, what role feelings have in the process if at all, etc.  It doesn't occur to them that their own ideas might be wrong: presuming their thoughts are right, they go where "reality" matches the concept they have in their own minds.   

Our people are not the most humble.  They often act as if, because they grew up in the Church and went to Sunday School as a child, they know everything, and so if they still have questions, they presume the answers will not be coming from the Orthodox Church (again, because they know everything).  Then they turn to the Protestants and suddenly feel like they are learning: people who never fasted are fasting, people who gave to the Church reluctantly are now tithing all sorts of time, resources, and talents, people who couldn't be bothered to show up to church on time are now going to multiple services and prayer meetings weekly.  Suddenly they are "humble" and willing to learn a false belief system, but when it came to the Church and her Orthodox faith, it was not so. 

I've been in the Church long enough to know that our clergy are not always the best in terms of providing for the flocks entrusted to their care (and there are reasons why that is so, and not all of it is due to their own weakness or sinfulness).  But I've also been around enough to know that if people are really interested in learning and growing, the clergy will respond and go the extra mile.  At a certain point, adults have to take responsibility for the practice of their faith, and, in a way, that is what those who leave are doing.  They do not understand our faith, they are not interested in learning because they have their own ideas about what is what, they go where the teaching and the emotional experiences reflect what they think is the right way, etc., and they leave.  Or they leave for a bit and come back to "save" others.  Or they keep coming to church in order to keep up appearances but do their charismatic thing on the side because that's the real spirituality for them. 

All of these things are rooted in pride, and no real relationship with God can arise from pride.  But if it doesn't matter to them whether it is real or not as long as they feel good about it, all anyone can do about that is to pray for them.  That is a deep, dark deception.

Quote
But that departure is seen far less in the Syro-Malabar Catholic church. To me it seems that the emergence of charismatic Catholic priests, has played a key role in preserving Catholics within their churches. I think many of us may be familiar with the countless programs on Shalom TV and the work of Fr. Naickomparambil (Potta Achen) of the Divine Retreat Centre and other similar gospel focused Catholic spiritual organizations.

I don't know if it is true that less people leave the Catholic Church than do the Orthodox Church, but taking it as a given that you are right, I would suggest it has less to do with charismatism and more to do with how Indian Catholics view Catholicism.  Indian Catholics are very loyal to the Church-as-institution.  Indian Catholic priests have told me that I as an Orthodox won't go to heaven because I'm not under the Pope.  Indian Catholic laity, whether or not they are that vocal and that "fundamentalist", have a deep connection to the Church-as-institution because, to their credit, they believe that something about it is so necessary that one cannot be saved without it, even if that something is merely recognising the authority of the Pope.  So they can be as "traditional" or as "liberal" or as "charismatic" as they want, as long as they do it within the Church.  This is also a wrong-headed way of doing things, but it is based on a very peculiar theology.  As Orthodox, we need to avoid the excesses both of those who follow their own thoughts and join a church which reflects them and those who follow their own thoughts as long as they pay lip service to the Church, even if they do not think and believe like the Church.     

Quote
Our churches do have similar setups, and are slowly using television and social media to increase its presence in the daily lives of members. But is there something more that can be done. What possible solutions exist?

First we need to properly define the problem.  Then we can think of solutions. 

Offline ShayneSwenson

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Re: Charismatism and the church in Malankara (and its diaspora)
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2015, 02:59:56 PM »
Hello everyone. I know what I'm about to say might get me into the bad books of many people here, but could charismatism play a positive role in the Orthodox Church?

Beware of Antonious Nikolas.  :)

Quote
I am speaking more from the perspective of the Malanakara Church because that's the only first hand experience I have. The number of people leaving the two traditional Orthodox Churches for pentecostal groups is increasing at an alarming rate.

Forgive me for generalizing, but I think many of us here on the board belong to the "Orthodox or Death" crew. Honestly, we don't see any alternative, and our faith is so engrained within us, we couldn't even contemplate being pentecostal. But the common church goer, and us differ in many ways.

They aren't satisfied any more with merely a Holy Qurbono once a week. They crave something much more, much deeper. Or atleast what the feel is much deeper
, a connection that they haven't yet experienced in church. The emergence of so many pentecostal televangelists and television channels in Kerala, and the ever expanding diaspora population has only widened the gap between the traditional generation and those exposed to new-age and charismatic pastors.   

I could forgive you for generalising, but this is something more than that.  It's erroneous.  Still forgivable.  :)

I don't think anyone here "doesn't see any alternative" to Orthodoxy.  We see the alternatives and have serious reasons why we believe they are wrong.  Some of us left those alternatives to become Orthodox. 

You claim that the common churchgoer wants something more from their practice of the faith that we don't, as if we are happy to go to church and perform our rituals or watch the service and not get anything out of it and that's enough for us.  I know there are Indians and other Orthodox who are like that, but you are mistaken if you think most of us here are like that.  We also want a deeper relationship with God and with his body.  But we want that in the way God intended for us, and we are convinced it is not to be found outside of Orthodoxy. 

Finally, your words in blue are key.  Does the common churchgoer want a deep relationship with God or does he want what he thinks and feels is a deep relationship with God, whether or not that relationship is there in reality?  This is of fundamental importance.  All the people I've known who have left Orthodoxy for "charismatism" or other forms of Protestantism did so because they presumed they should feel a certain way when drawing close to God and did not take the effort to learn what the Church has to teach about what a true relationship with God is, how it does and does not feel, what role feelings have in the process if at all, etc.  It doesn't occur to them that their own ideas might be wrong: presuming their thoughts are right, they go where "reality" matches the concept they have in their own minds.   

Our people are not the most humble.  They often act as if, because they grew up in the Church and went to Sunday School as a child, they know everything, and so if they still have questions, they presume the answers will not be coming from the Orthodox Church (again, because they know everything).  Then they turn to the Protestants and suddenly feel like they are learning: people who never fasted are fasting, people who gave to the Church reluctantly are now tithing all sorts of time, resources, and talents, people who couldn't be bothered to show up to church on time are now going to multiple services and prayer meetings weekly.  Suddenly they are "humble" and willing to learn a false belief system, but when it came to the Church and her Orthodox faith, it was not so. 

I've been in the Church long enough to know that our clergy are not always the best in terms of providing for the flocks entrusted to their care (and there are reasons why that is so, and not all of it is due to their own weakness or sinfulness).  But I've also been around enough to know that if people are really interested in learning and growing, the clergy will respond and go the extra mile.  At a certain point, adults have to take responsibility for the practice of their faith, and, in a way, that is what those who leave are doing.  They do not understand our faith, they are not interested in learning because they have their own ideas about what is what, they go where the teaching and the emotional experiences reflect what they think is the right way, etc., and they leave.  Or they leave for a bit and come back to "save" others.  Or they keep coming to church in order to keep up appearances but do their charismatic thing on the side because that's the real spirituality for them. 

All of these things are rooted in pride, and no real relationship with God can arise from pride.  But if it doesn't matter to them whether it is real or not as long as they feel good about it, all anyone can do about that is to pray for them.  That is a deep, dark deception.

Quote
But that departure is seen far less in the Syro-Malabar Catholic church. To me it seems that the emergence of charismatic Catholic priests, has played a key role in preserving Catholics within their churches. I think many of us may be familiar with the countless programs on Shalom TV and the work of Fr. Naickomparambil (Potta Achen) of the Divine Retreat Centre and other similar gospel focused Catholic spiritual organizations.

I don't know if it is true that less people leave the Catholic Church than do the Orthodox Church, but taking it as a given that you are right, I would suggest it has less to do with charismatism and more to do with how Indian Catholics view Catholicism.  Indian Catholics are very loyal to the Church-as-institution.  Indian Catholic priests have told me that I as an Orthodox won't go to heaven because I'm not under the Pope.  Indian Catholic laity, whether or not they are that vocal and that "fundamentalist", have a deep connection to the Church-as-institution because, to their credit, they believe that something about it is so necessary that one cannot be saved without it, even if that something is merely recognising the authority of the Pope.  So they can be as "traditional" or as "liberal" or as "charismatic" as they want, as long as they do it within the Church.  This is also a wrong-headed way of doing things, but it is based on a very peculiar theology.  As Orthodox, we need to avoid the excesses both of those who follow their own thoughts and join a church which reflects them and those who follow their own thoughts as long as they pay lip service to the Church, even if they do not think and believe like the Church.     

Quote
Our churches do have similar setups, and are slowly using television and social media to increase its presence in the daily lives of members. But is there something more that can be done. What possible solutions exist?

First we need to properly define the problem.  Then we can think of solutions.
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Offline ShayneSwenson

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Re: Charismatism and the church in Malankara (and its diaspora)
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2015, 03:05:01 PM »
To add to that dense, and eloquently stated reply of Mor's, I can say that apostasy is nothing new to the church, obviously. There may be minor "emergencies" like the OP was getting at, however there have been much larger mass exits from the church all throughout history.
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Charismatism and the church in Malankara (and its diaspora)
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2015, 03:24:35 PM »
Beware of Antonious Nikolas.

I have arrived.

But seriously, Jobin, your question assumes that Charismatism is in some way compatible with the Orthodox Faith and Orthodox practice.  It is not.  Not at all.

Kindly peruse the following articles which discuss what Charismatism actually is and what is behind it.  Hint: it is a spirit, but not the Holy Spirit.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/charismatic-revival-sign-times-seraphim-rose/

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/charismatic-movement-orthodoxy/

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

Light and darkness cannot walk together, and Charismatism can never be a part of Orthodoxy any more than cancer can be a part of a healthy body.

Beyond that, please read and re-read Mor's excellent reply.
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Offline jobin219

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Re: Charismatism and the church in Malankara (and its diaspora)
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2015, 04:43:37 AM »
I would like to begin by humbly apologizing to anyone who felt offended by my remarks, I never meant to belittle anyone's faith.

I think the post by Mor was quite apt, and very detailed, I appreciate your thoughtful reply.

Quote
I don't think anyone here "doesn't see any alternative" to Orthodoxy.  We see the alternatives and have serious reasons why we believe they are wrong.  Some of us left those alternatives to become Orthodox. 

You claim that the common churchgoer wants something more from their practice of the faith that we don't, as if we are happy to go to church and perform our rituals or watch the service and not get anything out of it and that's enough for us.  I know there are Indians and other Orthodox who are like that, but you are mistaken if you think most of us here are like that.  We also want a deeper relationship with God and with his body.  But we want that in the way God intended for us, and we are convinced it is not to be found outside of Orthodoxy. 

I honestly should not of generalized everyone here, I too like many on this board crave for spiritual growth within the confines of Holy Orthodoxy, and I should not of tried to whitewash over that.

Quote
Our people are not the most humble.  They often act as if, because they grew up in the Church and went to Sunday School as a child, they know everything, and so if they still have questions, they presume the answers will not be coming from the Orthodox Church (again, because they know everything).  Then they turn to the Protestants and suddenly feel like they are learning: people who never fasted are fasting, people who gave to the Church reluctantly are now tithing all sorts of time, resources, and talents, people who couldn't be bothered to show up to church on time are now going to multiple services and prayer meetings weekly.  Suddenly they are "humble" and willing to learn a false belief system, but when it came to the Church and her Orthodox faith, it was not so. 

Bingo!! I know many people who fit this description completely, a spot-on characterization. Many "believers" "vishwasi's"who think are suddenly spiritually correct and saved, while the rest of us are shackled by out dated traditions. Suddenly, people who scoffed whenever achen's sunday sermon went overtime, are now willing to sit in some hall and listen to a preacher go on for two hours straight. Yeah I agree, people assume there's nothing more to Orthodoxy than what happens on sunday, and what we learn in our short time in Sunday School.

Quote
I've been in the Church long enough to know that our clergy are not always the best in terms of providing for the flocks entrusted to their care (and there are reasons why that is so, and not all of it is due to their own weakness or sinfulness).  But I've also been around enough to know that if people are really interested in learning and growing, the clergy will respond and go the extra mile.  At a certain point, adults have to take responsibility for the practice of their faith, and, in a way, that is what those who leave are doing.  They do not understand our faith, they are not interested in learning because they have their own ideas about what is what, they go where the teaching and the emotional experiences reflect what they think is the right way, etc., and they leave. Or they leave for a bit and come back to "save" others.  Or they keep coming to church in order to keep up appearances but do their charismatic thing on the side because that's the real spirituality for them. 

All of these things are rooted in pride, and no real relationship with God can arise from pride.  But if it doesn't matter to them whether it is real or not as long as they feel good about it, all anyone can do about that is to pray for them.  That is a deep, dark deception.]

I think both a grass roots (achens, seminarians, church laity) & top down (church hierarchy) approach is needed to tackle this problem.  The gospel should become an integral part of seminary teaching. At the same time a willingness to listen and learn from an Orthodox perspective should be sowed in the hearts of everyone in the church from even the Sunday school level. I bolded some points which I completely agree with and can't emphasize enough. I am a weak and sinful servant, but I can see the pride of those who have left the church. It's like they have eaten the fruit from the tree of knowledge, and they now know the bible inside and out. It's as if they posses some knowledge that no one within the Orthodox Church has had, or ever will have unless they sit in and listen to brother abc speak. The fathers of the church, who were learned scholars, martyrs and among the brightest minds of their lifetime have been reduced to mere uneducated peasants by these "brothers/pastors".

Quote
First we need to properly define the problem. Then we can think of solutions.

I think pride and misunderstanding are primary factors which lead many astray. Also certain priests who still have an archaic view of how things should be done. However, I have met many priests who have such an unquenchable love for orthodoxy and a keen interest to share knowledge about our faith and the message of the gospel, but sadly few who are willing to listen to them speak for more than 10 minutes. (five minutes if the weather is bad)

Beware of Antonious Nikolas.

I have arrived.

But seriously, Jobin, your question assumes that Charismatism is in some way compatible with the Orthodox Faith and Orthodox practice.  It is not.  Not at all.

Kindly peruse the following articles which discuss what Charismatism actually is and what is behind it.  Hint: it is a spirit, but not the Holy Spirit.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/charismatic-revival-sign-times-seraphim-rose/

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/charismatic-movement-orthodoxy/

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

Light and darkness cannot walk together, and Charismatism can never be a part of Orthodoxy any more than cancer can be a part of a healthy body.

Beyond that, please read and re-read Mor's excellent reply.

Thank you so much for that links. It was an excellent read. I think my choice in the word charismatism was erroneous. I could never imagine such speaking in tongues etc to be a part of Holy Orthodoxy.
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Re: Charismatism and the church in Malankara (and its diaspora)
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2015, 05:18:21 AM »
There's a lot of very lovely devotional literature from writers like St. Ephrem the Syrian, St. Isaac of Ninevah and so many others (I don't know if OOs approve of St. Symeon the New Theologian, but he might also be a good alternative for the personality that finds charismaticism attractive). People need to realize that 17th century Lutheran Pietists and Victorian Baptists didn't invent the idea of having a deeply personal experience of God.
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Re: Charismatism and the church in Malankara (and its diaspora)
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2015, 11:25:24 AM »
Thank you so much for that links. It was an excellent read.

My pleasure.

I think my choice in the word charismatism was erroneous. I could never imagine such speaking in tongues etc to be a part of Holy Orthodoxy.

That explains a lot.  So, more accurately, perhaps you meant something along the lines of Evangelical mega-church pop Christianity?  In that case, I would recommend some other articles from the same site:

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/orthodox-church-america-orthodox-worship-vs-contemporary-worship/
http://returntoorthodoxy.com/coptic-orthodox-popes-bishops-against-heterodox-worship/
http://returntoorthodoxy.com/pietism-ecclesiological-heresy-christos-yannaras/
http://returntoorthodoxy.com/worship-spirit-truth-thomas-hopko/

There's a lot of very lovely devotional literature from writers like St. Ephrem the Syrian, St. Isaac of Ninevah and so many others (I don't know if OOs approve of St. Symeon the New Theologian, but he might also be a good alternative for the personality that finds charismaticism attractive). People need to realize that 17th century Lutheran Pietists and Victorian Baptists didn't invent the idea of having a deeply personal experience of God.

As Fr. Alexis Trader confirms in his fantastic book In Peace Let Us Pray to the Lord, there couldn't be a wider gulf between what is expressed in the writings of these Fathers and what takes place in Charismatic circles, the apologies of those who would abuse these writings to advocate for a "Charismatic revival" within Orthodoxy aside.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline jobin219

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Re: Charismatism and the church in Malankara (and its diaspora)
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2015, 11:57:40 AM »
Thank you so much for that links. It was an excellent read.

My pleasure.

I think my choice in the word charismatism was erroneous. I could never imagine such speaking in tongues etc to be a part of Holy Orthodoxy.

That explains a lot.  So, more accurately, perhaps you meant something along the lines of Evangelical mega-church pop Christianity?  In that case, I would recommend some other articles from the same site:

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/orthodox-church-america-orthodox-worship-vs-contemporary-worship/
http://returntoorthodoxy.com/coptic-orthodox-popes-bishops-against-heterodox-worship/
http://returntoorthodoxy.com/pietism-ecclesiological-heresy-christos-yannaras/
http://returntoorthodoxy.com/worship-spirit-truth-thomas-hopko/

There's a lot of very lovely devotional literature from writers like St. Ephrem the Syrian, St. Isaac of Ninevah and so many others (I don't know if OOs approve of St. Symeon the New Theologian, but he might also be a good alternative for the personality that finds charismaticism attractive). People need to realize that 17th century Lutheran Pietists and Victorian Baptists didn't invent the idea of having a deeply personal experience of God.

As Fr. Alexis Trader confirms in his fantastic book In Peace Let Us Pray to the Lord, there couldn't be a wider gulf between what is expressed in the writings of these Fathers and what takes place in Charismatic circles, the apologies of those who would abuse these writings to advocate for a "Charismatic revival" within Orthodoxy aside.

Thank you once again. I especially enjoyed reading the article by Fr. Thomas Hopko.

The question now arises, what next? What solution is needed both in Malankara and its diaspora to fend off this growing trend of pentacostalism and exodus away from Orthodoxy.
"As far as possible never do evil to anyone: or it will ruin you, your children and your house. Hold on steadfastly to prayer, fasting and works of charity. Do them with faith and devotion ".
-Saint Gregorios Geevarghese Chathuruthil (Parumala Thirumeni)

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Re: Charismatism and the church in Malankara (and its diaspora)
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2015, 02:02:14 PM »
The question now arises, what next? What solution is needed both in Malankara and its diaspora to fend off this growing trend of pentacostalism and exodus away from Orthodoxy.

I think that we can minister to the needs of our youth without resorting to the shallow tactics of the groups leading them astray.  We need to begin to teach them to appreciate the depth of our Faith.  Those of us who are blessed to be their servants can't do this if we ourselves aren't living our Faith and living the liturgy.  Do we teach them how to benefit from the liturgy?  Do we teach them what the liturgy actually is: that when they pray it they are praying outside of time and space with the angels around the Throne of God and with every Orthodox saint who has ever lived?  Do we teach them the depth of our Faith and how to have a living relationship with Christ within the context of real Christianity (i.e. Orthodoxy)?  Or do we just insist that they follow the old ways without explaining to them why those ways are valuable?  I don't claim to have all the answers, and I acknowledge that what I'm describing will be a long, work-intensive process, but our youth are more than worth it.  For what it's worth, many in the Oriental Orthodox communion are going through a similar struggle.  It's not just Malankara and its diaspora, but the rest of us too.  The Eastern Orthodox went through a similar slump a few decades ago, but they recovered.  I think that looking to them - especially the Antiohcians - as role models would be a sounder course than looking to the Evangelicals/Charismatics.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline mabsoota

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Re: Charismatism and the church in Malankara (and its diaspora)
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2015, 05:48:31 PM »
some good posts here.
i don't have much time (internet down most of the week and could crash any moment!) but i would like to say 2 things.
1. every single person i met who used to be protestant and who is now orthodox says that orthodox Christianity is
MUCH DEEPER.
so no, there is nothing deeper.

2. therefore, if you feel you are missing something, you are missing orthodox Christianity.
maybe this will help:

go and read the Bible (all of it) and then the early church father's works
(stick to the ones commemorated in your church so you are not confused).

fast properly through the great fast.

give to the poor.

fall on your knees many times each day asking God to forgive your sins.

if you do this for many weeks and still feel you miss something, maybe you need advice from a priest or bishop.
i don't know about you church, i think if i had these kind of problems in my church and did all the above,
then maybe i would visit another orthodox church to see if they had advice.

may God guide you, and bless you for having concerns for your church and for seeking a deeper relationship with Him.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Charismatism and the church in Malankara (and its diaspora)
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2015, 07:44:38 PM »
some good posts here.
i don't have much time (internet down most of the week and could crash any moment!) but i would like to say 2 things.
1. every single person i met who used to be protestant and who is now orthodox says that orthodox Christianity is
MUCH DEEPER.
so no, there is nothing deeper.

Indeed. I know for me it was seeing how much of the Liturgy is drawn from Scripture, seeing the depth of symbolism in the icons, and seeing all the rich symbolism and poetry in many of the hymns.

A frequent refrain in intra-church Protestant criticisms is that worship and preaching is not "Gospel-focused" or "focused on the Cross" enough. I've found that Orthodoxy proclaims the whole of the Gospel every Sunday in the Liturgy alone if not in the sermon also.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2015, 07:47:44 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: Charismatism and the church in Malankara (and its diaspora)
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2015, 09:10:27 PM »
In church, people hear the Sermon on the Mount (or bits of it) preached. Then they often hear the leaders of the church explain away the Sermon on the Mount, and the people live normal lives of flourishing in this age.

Reacting to this hypocrisy, they look elsewhere. They hope that in the chaotic opposite of Pentecostalism, for example, they'll find the power to get or find a group of people actually following the Sermon. Of course, they typically don't see this, and so they either move on, or return to their original tradition.

There is a very (intellectually) simple way to solve this problem; but it's the hardest.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2015, 09:11:55 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Charismatism and the church in Malankara (and its diaspora)
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2015, 09:29:45 PM »
In church, people hear the Sermon on the Mount (or bits of it) preached. Then they often hear the leaders of the church explain away the Sermon on the Mount, and the people live normal lives of flourishing in this age.

Reacting to this hypocrisy, they look elsewhere. They hope that in the chaotic opposite of Pentecostalism, for example, they'll find the power to get or find a group of people actually following the Sermon. Of course, they typically don't see this, and so they either move on, or return to their original tradition.

There is a very (intellectually) simple way to solve this problem; but it's the hardest.

The question also needs to be asked though, if Orthodox material piety and all its gold and silver isn't itself inimical to the Sermon on the Mount. As the Catholics are finding out with the tussle over Pope Francis, maybe it's not possible to have a splendid, high liturgical Church without also having hierarchs who live in the lap of luxury.

I don't know the answer.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2015, 09:30:25 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline wgw

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Re: Charismatism and the church in Malankara (and its diaspora)
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2015, 03:47:27 AM »
I don't believe most Orthodox hierarchs love in the lap of luxury, or anything approaching it.  Even the palace used by Benedict XVI wasn't exactly Versailles; from the photos alive seen of it in the John Paul II area the living quarters and private chapel had the ambience of,a retirement home.

Orthodox bishops have "cell attendants" who in centuries past stayed with the bishop all the time to attest to their chastity.  Even today despite the fact they receive honors as international dignitaries I do not believe the majority of our hierarchs live a comfortable life.  Rome has had problems though, such as the recently sacked Bishop of Bling.

I've seen the residence of HG Serapion of the Copts in LA and his Syriac counterpart and the residence of a ROCOR hierarch, from the outside, and frankly, my house is bigger and more luxurious.  And no, I didn't take the Hollywood Church Hierarch Celebrity Houses Tour Bus.  :-P   Although such a bus tour might be a good idea for the budding entrepreneur. 

I'll bet Joel Osteen lives more opulently than all Orthodox hierarchs combined,,setting aside the physical ostentation of some Orthodox Patriarchal residences, which in my experience is not reflected in their living quarters.  The posh dining rooms et cetera are for the people the bishop has to entertain to get donations and otherwise represent the Church politically.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

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Re: Charismatism and the church in Malankara (and its diaspora)
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2015, 09:43:11 AM »
I don't know how this discussion veered into this territory, and its certainly not germane to Jobin's OP, but I'd venture to say that the mega-church pastors Jobin was suggesting we might want to ape have just about any Orthodox bishop in North America whupped six ways to Sunday when it comes to ostentatious living.  Like wgw, I've seen several hierarchal residences inside and out, and they've got nothing - and I mean absolutely nothing - on the mansions of the prosperity gospel crowd.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline jobin219

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Re: Charismatism and the church in Malankara (and its diaspora)
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2015, 12:57:10 PM »
The question now arises, what next? What solution is needed both in Malankara and its diaspora to fend off this growing trend of pentacostalism and exodus away from Orthodoxy.

I think that we can minister to the needs of our youth without resorting to the shallow tactics of the groups leading them astray.  We need to begin to teach them to appreciate the depth of our Faith.  Those of us who are blessed to be their servants can't do this if we ourselves aren't living our Faith and living the liturgy.  Do we teach them how to benefit from the liturgy?  Do we teach them what the liturgy actually is: that when they pray it they are praying outside of time and space with the angels around the Throne of God and with every Orthodox saint who has ever lived?  Do we teach them the depth of our Faith and how to have a living relationship with Christ within the context of real Christianity (i.e. Orthodoxy)?  Or do we just insist that they follow the old ways without explaining to them why those ways are valuable? I don't claim to have all the answers, and I acknowledge that what I'm describing will be a long, work-intensive process, but our youth are more than worth it. For what it's worth, many in the Oriental Orthodox communion are going through a similar struggle.  It's not just Malankara and its diaspora, but the rest of us too.  The Eastern Orthodox went through a similar slump a few decades ago, but they recovered.  I think that looking to them - especially the Antiohcians - as role models would be a sounder course than looking to the Evangelicals/Charismatics.

I wholeheartedly agree. The members of our churches need to truly see the richness of our liturgy and the depth of biblical inspiration the church fathers had when formulating every prayer and song. The future of the church depends on its youth, and even small baby steps are welcome.

some good posts here.
i don't have much time (internet down most of the week and could crash any moment!) but i would like to say 2 things.
1. every single person i met who used to be protestant and who is now orthodox says that orthodox Christianity is
MUCH DEEPER.
so no, there is nothing deeper.

2. therefore, if you feel you are missing something, you are missing orthodox Christianity.
maybe this will help:

go and read the Bible (all of it) and then the early church father's works
(stick to the ones commemorated in your church so you are not confused).

fast properly through the great fast.

give to the poor.

fall on your knees many times each day asking God to forgive your sins.

if you do this for many weeks and still feel you miss something, maybe you need advice from a priest or bishop.
i don't know about you church, i think if i had these kind of problems in my church and did all the above,
then maybe i would visit another orthodox church to see if they had advice.

may God guide you, and bless you for having concerns for your church and for seeking a deeper relationship with Him.

I think you've misunderstood the reason for my posts. I am not describing my personal issues, but what I see as a genuine problem in the  Church. Ultimately, one day I'll be in the position of leadership, I want to be prepared to give my best for the church. I love Orthodoxy, I love the Church, and I feel deeply pained when I see someone leave, especially youth. (Both older and younger than me)

I don't like mega-church pastors, they are truly mammon personified in the 21st century. I couldn't fathom Orthodoxy being corrupted like that.

Orthodoxy is alive, living, its rich, its deep, it really is the right way to glorify God almighty. People need to see that, especially people who are leaning toward pentecostalism. How do we go about doing that? I think this is an inter-OO dilemma, where the hierarchy and laity of all OO churches should get involved. Maybe an updated catechism, or more funding for translations of the writings of the church fathers. There's so much knowledge the fathers left for us. I remember watching a few years ago an animated video about the Coptic Liturgy geared to helping children understand the basics and some inner meaning. It was awesome, brought out the kid in me, yet taught me more about the Coptic church. To me, things like these really do benefit families to encourage their kids to love the church and attend for their spiritual growth, not just because they are forced to until they can stop when older.
"As far as possible never do evil to anyone: or it will ruin you, your children and your house. Hold on steadfastly to prayer, fasting and works of charity. Do them with faith and devotion ".
-Saint Gregorios Geevarghese Chathuruthil (Parumala Thirumeni)

Offline mabsoota

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Re: Charismatism and the church in Malankara (and its diaspora)
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2015, 01:03:53 PM »
i can see that these are not your personal issues.
the message i wrote is one that i hope will help the people who you are trying to help.

reading the works of the church fathers and seeing the relevance / symbolism of the liturgy should help.
also most people having regular Holy Communion (and all the sacraments) helps a lot.
 :)

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Charismatism and the church in Malankara (and its diaspora)
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2015, 07:09:10 PM »
Ultimately, one day I'll be in the position of leadership

Then - like all leaders - you need to make sure your head is in the right place.

"Brothers, not many of you should become teachers, for we who become teachers will be judged with a stricter judgment." (St. James 3:1)

"If anyone should cause one of these little ones to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he was dropped into the depths of the sea." (St. Matthew 18:6)

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions." (John Milton)

"The road to Hell is paved with the bones of priests and monks, and the skulls of bishops are the lamp posts that light the path." (Anonymous)

Those leaders - priests, servants, whoever - who introduce Evangelical "praise & worship" songs, "Daniel Fasts", Purpose Driven Life and Prayer of Jabez books, and other such poison into the life of our youth may have pure motives - as you do - but in their ignorance they're leading our youth away from Orthodoxy and into dangerous, dangerous territory.

God have mercy on them, on our youth, and all of us.  Like I said, the course I'm charting, and that I pray more servants will chart, may be a lot more labor intensive than cut 'n' pasting from Protestant sources, but our youth and our Church are worth it.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Charismatism and the church in Malankara (and its diaspora)
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2015, 08:22:50 PM »
I think both a grass roots (achens, seminarians, church laity) & top down (church hierarchy) approach is needed to tackle this problem.  The gospel should become an integral part of seminary teaching.

I'm curious what you think people learn in seminary. 

Quote
At the same time a willingness to listen and learn from an Orthodox perspective should be sowed in the hearts of everyone in the church from even the Sunday school level.

I think that change is slowly taking place, at least in the West.  My impression, and I could be wrong, is that a lot of Sunday School level catechism once upon a time focused on a narrow version of "how to do Orthodoxy", and that came from a particular context out of which we are only emerging now.  My mother, for example, remembers vividly how, during grade school, they would pray the Hours on Lenten weekdays and do the forty prostrations at the end, but no one seems to have explained to her in any way that stuck with her throughout life how it is that Christ is both "God" and "Son of God" at the same time.  I kid around with her that she was a right-worshipping Arian for most of her life, but I'm only part kidding because it illustrates my point.  In some ways, we have had a rather narrow understanding of what Orthodoxy is, and this is part of the problem.  The Protestants win followers not because their teaching is more sound but because they are offering a "real" product (i.e., "authentic Protestantism" of whatever strand) and showing how it is better than a stereotypical caricature of our "real product" which our own people often accept as the real thing and not a caricature.     

Quote
I think pride and misunderstanding are primary factors which lead many astray. Also certain priests who still have an archaic view of how things should be done. However, I have met many priests who have such an unquenchable love for orthodoxy and a keen interest to share knowledge about our faith and the message of the gospel, but sadly few who are willing to listen to them speak for more than 10 minutes. (five minutes if the weather is bad)

What "archaic view" do you have in mind? 

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Charismatism and the church in Malankara (and its diaspora)
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2015, 09:17:46 PM »
I think that change is slowly taking place, at least in the West.  My impression, and I could be wrong, is that a lot of Sunday School level catechism once upon a time focused on a narrow version of "how to do Orthodoxy", and that came from a particular context out of which we are only emerging now.  My mother, for example, remembers vividly how, during grade school, they would pray the Hours on Lenten weekdays and do the forty prostrations at the end, but no one seems to have explained to her in any way that stuck with her throughout life how it is that Christ is both "God" and "Son of God" at the same time.  I kid around with her that she was a right-worshipping Arian for most of her life, but I'm only part kidding because it illustrates my point.  In some ways, we have had a rather narrow understanding of what Orthodoxy is, and this is part of the problem.  The Protestants win followers not because their teaching is more sound but because they are offering a "real" product (i.e., "authentic Protestantism" of whatever strand) and showing how it is better than a stereotypical caricature of our "real product" which our own people often accept as the real thing and not a caricature.

Very good point.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Charismatism and the church in Malankara (and its diaspora)
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2015, 09:18:13 PM »
I don't believe most Orthodox hierarchs love in the lap of luxury, or anything approaching it.  Even the palace used by Benedict XVI wasn't exactly Versailles; from the photos alive seen of it in the John Paul II area the living quarters and private chapel had the ambience of,a retirement home.

Orthodox bishops have "cell attendants" who in centuries past stayed with the bishop all the time to attest to their chastity.  Even today despite the fact they receive honors as international dignitaries I do not believe the majority of our hierarchs live a comfortable life.  Rome has had problems though, such as the recently sacked Bishop of Bling.

I've seen the residence of HG Serapion of the Copts in LA and his Syriac counterpart and the residence of a ROCOR hierarch, from the outside, and frankly, my house is bigger and more luxurious.  And no, I didn't take the Hollywood Church Hierarch Celebrity Houses Tour Bus.  :-P   Although such a bus tour might be a good idea for the budding entrepreneur. 

I'll bet Joel Osteen lives more opulently than all Orthodox hierarchs combined,,setting aside the physical ostentation of some Orthodox Patriarchal residences, which in my experience is not reflected in their living quarters.  The posh dining rooms et cetera are for the people the bishop has to entertain to get donations and otherwise represent the Church politically.

Thanks for the info.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline jobin219

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Re: Charismatism and the church in Malankara (and its diaspora)
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2015, 04:00:20 AM »
Ultimately, one day I'll be in the position of leadership

Then - like all leaders - you need to make sure your head is in the right place.

"Brothers, not many of you should become teachers, for we who become teachers will be judged with a stricter judgment." (St. James 3:1)

"If anyone should cause one of these little ones to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he was dropped into the depths of the sea." (St. Matthew 18:6)

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions." (John Milton)

"The road to Hell is paved with the bones of priests and monks, and the skulls of bishops are the lamp posts that light the path." (Anonymous)

Those leaders - priests, servants, whoever - who introduce Evangelical "praise & worship" songs, "Daniel Fasts", Purpose Driven Life and Prayer of Jabez books, and other such poison into the life of our youth may have pure motives - as you do - but in their ignorance they're leading our youth away from Orthodoxy and into dangerous, dangerous territory.

God have mercy on them, on our youth, and all of us.  Like I said, the course I'm charting, and that I pray more servants will chart, may be a lot more labor intensive than cut 'n' pasting from Protestant sources, but our youth and our Church are worth it.

Yes I understand. I pray that I will be an effective leader one day, and I am Orthodox not just in speech but in my actions as well.

Quote
I'm curious what you think people learn in seminary.

I don't know about what happens in OTS Kottayam, but I've heard from many Jacobite Seminarians and a few priests who have said in MSOTS Mulanthurthy nothing except liturgy is taught and very few have a grasp of the Bible or even actual orthodoxy. They also mentioned that seminarians who come out of there don't have a clue about dealing with parishioners. I have met seminarians who opted not to attend MSOTS for that reason. Though all of this could be due to other personal biases or anecdotal evidence and second hand knowledge.

Quote
What "archaic view" do you have in mind?

I have met priests (both JSOC and IOC) who see priesthood as merely a job, perform sunday qurbono and be done for the week. No attempt to even counsel or teach the members anything. They hardly speak for 5 minutes of the sermon. half of that is for announcements.
"As far as possible never do evil to anyone: or it will ruin you, your children and your house. Hold on steadfastly to prayer, fasting and works of charity. Do them with faith and devotion ".
-Saint Gregorios Geevarghese Chathuruthil (Parumala Thirumeni)

Offline dhinuus

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Re: Charismatism and the church in Malankara (and its diaspora)
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2015, 01:44:57 PM »

I don't know about what happens in OTS Kottayam, but I've heard from many Jacobite Seminarians and a few priests who have said in MSOTS Mulanthurthy nothing except liturgy is taught and very few have a grasp of the Bible or even actual orthodoxy. They also mentioned that seminarians who come out of there don't have a clue about dealing with parishioners. I have met seminarians who opted not to attend MSOTS for that reason. Though all of this could be due to other personal biases or anecdotal evidence and second hand knowledge.

Here is the syllabus of MSOT Seminary Udayagiri
http://msotseminary.edu.in/syllabus.php
NULL

Offline jobin219

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Re: Charismatism and the church in Malankara (and its diaspora)
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2015, 03:10:30 AM »

I don't know about what happens in OTS Kottayam, but I've heard from many Jacobite Seminarians and a few priests who have said in MSOTS Mulanthurthy nothing except liturgy is taught and very few have a grasp of the Bible or even actual orthodoxy. They also mentioned that seminarians who come out of there don't have a clue about dealing with parishioners. I have met seminarians who opted not to attend MSOTS for that reason. Though all of this could be due to other personal biases or anecdotal evidence and second hand knowledge.

Here is the syllabus of MSOT Seminary Udayagiri
http://msotseminary.edu.in/syllabus.php

Thank you for sharing this. I'm glad to learn that the problems which I've heard about MSOTS were wrong.
"As far as possible never do evil to anyone: or it will ruin you, your children and your house. Hold on steadfastly to prayer, fasting and works of charity. Do them with faith and devotion ".
-Saint Gregorios Geevarghese Chathuruthil (Parumala Thirumeni)

Offline CharalambisMakarios

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Re: Charismatism and the church in Malankara (and its diaspora)
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2015, 11:33:54 AM »
Speaking as one of those darn Protestants  ;D

I think it's a matter of revitalizing. Protestant churches are actually having a similar problem, which makes for a rather strange situation where you have converts shuffling back and forth between the branches of Christianity. I imagine that, personally, even if I become Orthodox I will still maintain some of the emphases from my former church (still adhering to Orthodox theology, just emphasizing slightly different points). But for a lot of people, they want to leave their old church and cut off all ties. When you grow up in a tradition, it sometimes loses some of its effect on the individual. I guess the solution that comes to mind is, as people have said, to engage with youth, but also to shine forth the best possible witness of living faith, Christlike service and welcoming love. It's all anyone can do.

Pardon my rather rambling two cents. I also acknowledge my position as an outsider.

Pray for me, a sinner.

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Re: Charismatism and the church in Malankara (and its diaspora)
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2015, 12:34:17 PM »
I think it's a matter of revitalizing.

And that revitalization should take the form of a renaissance rather than a reformation, at least as far as Orthodoxy is concerned.  The solution is to rediscover the depth of our Tradition, not to ape the shallow pop Christianity of others.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline jobin219

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Re: Charismatism and the church in Malankara (and its diaspora)
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2015, 12:42:43 PM »
I think it's a matter of revitalizing.

And that revitalization should take the form of a renaissance rather than a reformation, at least as far as Orthodoxy is concerned.  The solution is to rediscover the depth of our Tradition, not to ape the shallow pop Christianity of others.

Bingo!
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Charismatism and the church in Malankara (and its diaspora)
« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2015, 01:15:52 PM »
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I'm curious what you think people learn in seminary.

I don't know about what happens in OTS Kottayam, but I've heard from many Jacobite Seminarians and a few priests who have said in MSOTS Mulanthurthy nothing except liturgy is taught and very few have a grasp of the Bible or even actual orthodoxy. They also mentioned that seminarians who come out of there don't have a clue about dealing with parishioners. I have met seminarians who opted not to attend MSOTS for that reason. Though all of this could be due to other personal biases or anecdotal evidence and second hand knowledge.

Dhinuus has already posted the details of MSOTS' program of study, so there isn't much more to say.  But I will offer my opinion. 

While it may be false that "nothing except liturgy is taught" in the seminaries (I'm including all seminaries of both factions), I think there is a definite sense that liturgics is an important thing for seminarians to master, to the point where, even if the professors are doing their best to fully train well-rounded priests, the larger system (educational institutions, students, bishops, congregations) is biased toward having graduates who know how to "do" priesthood rather than "be" priesthood.  I think there are reasons for that, some of them related to history and some related to how difficult to please our people can be, but it is a real phenomenon, and can be seen in other Orthodox cultures. 

Also, programs of study can ensure that a candidate is sufficiently trained in all of the necessary disciplines, but they can't ensure that everyone will have all the same abilities.  Some priests are just better at some things than others, but this need not be a hindrance in their ministry. 

I wouldn't say that seminary training is perfect in India, but it's not perfect anywhere.  What is important is for us to be self-critical in order to improve what we are doing.  This is a quality with which we, as a people, have difficulty.  It is very easy for us to be critical, but exceedingly difficult to be self-critical. 

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What "archaic view" do you have in mind?

I have met priests (both JSOC and IOC) who see priesthood as merely a job, perform sunday qurbono and be done for the week. No attempt to even counsel or teach the members anything. They hardly speak for 5 minutes of the sermon. half of that is for announcements.

Such are out there, but have you ever asked them why?  Perhaps they will be reticent to share their feelings with laymen, and perhaps they are just bad priests, but in my own experience, it is possible that they didn't start that way, but became that way due to the hardships they had to face in their ministry.  I know for a fact that this is the case with regard to some priests whom I also judged like this once upon a time. 

I don't think our people have a clue about how hard it is to be a priest.  Many of them think they work a four hour work week (one morning a week) and live off the tithes of the people.  It's a joke.  They have no clue until they get involved in the work of the church themselves.   

Offline CharalambisMakarios

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Re: Charismatism and the church in Malankara (and its diaspora)
« Reply #29 on: March 01, 2015, 08:33:44 PM »
I think it's a matter of revitalizing.

And that revitalization should take the form of a renaissance rather than a reformation, at least as far as Orthodoxy is concerned.  The solution is to rediscover the depth of our Tradition, not to ape the shallow pop Christianity of others.

Bingo!

I wasn't saying anything different. I'm just saying faith should be lived out. Renaissance is a good way to put it.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Charismatism and the church in Malankara (and its diaspora)
« Reply #30 on: March 01, 2015, 08:37:45 PM »
I think it's a matter of revitalizing.

And that revitalization should take the form of a renaissance rather than a reformation, at least as far as Orthodoxy is concerned.  The solution is to rediscover the depth of our Tradition, not to ape the shallow pop Christianity of others.

Bingo!

I wasn't saying anything different. I'm just saying faith should be lived out. Renaissance is a good way to put it.

That's fine.  I was just clarifying.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Charismatism and the church in Malankara (and its diaspora)
« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2017, 09:26:55 PM »
Hello everyone. I know what I'm about to say might get me into the bad books of many people here, but could charismatism play a positive role in the Orthodox Church?
To answer the question, and indeed to have a discussion on "Charismaticism", we need to ask what exactly that means.

If it means praise that includes humming or mumbling in Church, then it's questionable how Orthodox it is.

On one hand, I known that Orthodox chant can include the Ison, where the choir hums in the background. And we also know that it's standard for the laypeople to join in the hymns that the choir sings. But I don't know how far back in time the Ison goes.

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Ison is a drone note, or a slow-moving lower vocal part, used in Byzantine chant and some related musical traditions to accompany the melody, thus enriching the singing, at the same time not transforming it into a harmonized or polyphonic piece.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ison_(music)

I think this has an ison in the background:
Georgian Orthodox chant in ARAMAIC language
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6tV679wXIU

Do any OO Churches include the Ison?


In Charismatic services, what happens is that a moment arrives in the service when the Charismatics begin humming indistinct phonetics to praise the Lord.

Let me give you a good example of how this works:
Charismatic Catholics pray over Pope Francis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zai46PZy580

Now, is this evidence of Catholics yearning for the ison? Is this spiritually the same as the ison?

One difference I see is that commonly they aren't just humming aaa, ooo, iii, mmmmm, but rather forming syllables.

...

The clearest problem I see from the Byzantine Orthodox POV especially arises when the Charismatics form syllables that they then claim are real words, which nobody present happens to understand. This particular claim about gatherings of laity singing such words at once in the modern period is not a normal part of Eastern Orthodox Tradition, and while I am not nearly as familiar with Oriental Orthodoxy, I expect the same goes for it.

And that being the case, then to answer your question, Jobin, it looks hard to make NeoPentecostal tongues worship a legitimate part of your tradition.


But that departure is seen far less in the Syro-Malabar Catholic church. To me it seems that the emergence of charismatic Catholic priests, has played a key role in preserving Catholics within their churches. I think many of us may be familiar with the countless programs on Shalom TV and the work of Fr. Naickomparambil (Potta Achen) of the Divine Retreat Centre and other similar gospel focused Catholic spiritual organizations.
Shalom TV is not Catholic but a kind of Messianic or Israeli-oriented Christian TV, right?

The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline Antonis

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Re: Charismatism and the church in Malankara (and its diaspora)
« Reply #32 on: February 18, 2017, 11:02:35 PM »
delete
« Last Edit: February 18, 2017, 11:07:19 PM by Antonis »
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