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Author Topic: Liturgical rites and the Pope  (Read 3470 times) Average Rating: 0
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Peter J
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« on: March 29, 2012, 10:06:53 PM »

Technically, my question has been answered already; but I want to post the question and the answer here too, any case anyone can add any clarifying remarks:

Quote from: Peter J
Now, is the Pope the only one who can celebrate any rite he wants?

Quote from: Malphono
Technically, the Pope is the one person who is omni-ritual, meaning that he may celebrate in any Rite he so chooses. But of course it is rare that any Pope celebrates in other than the Roman Rite.

- http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=9122725
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« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2012, 10:29:07 PM »

His Holiness Pope Benedict has authorized the use of the old Trendtentine Mass in all parishes, in fact, hasn't he required that it be celebrated regularly in all parishes?
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« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2012, 11:12:22 PM »

They usually attend in choir rather than celebrate but Pope Blessed John XXIII celebrated the Byzantine Liturgy as did Pope Blessed John Paul II.  
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« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2012, 11:46:33 PM »

Technically, my question has been answered already; but I want to post the question and the answer here too, any case anyone can add any clarifying remarks:

Quote from: Peter J
Now, is the Pope the only one who can celebrate any rite he wants?

Quote from: Malphono
Technically, the Pope is the one person who is omni-ritual, meaning that he may celebrate in any Rite he so chooses. But of course it is rare that any Pope celebrates in other than the Roman Rite.

- http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=9122725
I'd be interested in who was the first "supreme pontiff" to celebrate in anything but the Roman rite.
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« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2012, 08:32:52 AM »

Technically, my question has been answered already; but I want to post the question and the answer here too, any case anyone can add any clarifying remarks:

Quote from: Peter J
Now, is the Pope the only one who can celebrate any rite he wants?

Quote from: Malphono
Technically, the Pope is the one person who is omni-ritual, meaning that he may celebrate in any Rite he so chooses. But of course it is rare that any Pope celebrates in other than the Roman Rite.

- http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=9122725
I'd be interested in who was the first "supreme pontiff" to celebrate in anything but the Roman rite.

St. Peter I would guess.
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« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2012, 08:36:57 AM »

His Holiness Pope Benedict has authorized the use of the old Trendtentine Mass in all parishes, in fact, hasn't he required that it be celebrated regularly in all parishes?

You mean, in all parishes of the LCC. As to your question, I really don't think it's required -- although even if it is, that wouldn't contradict Malphono's statement that the Pope is the only person who is "omni-ritual".
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« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2012, 09:29:31 AM »

Has any pope celebrated an Ambrosian or a Mozarabic mass?
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« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2012, 09:52:57 AM »

Has any pope celebrated an Ambrosian or a Mozarabic mass?

Pope Paul VI was Ambrosian Rite before he became Pope. I don't know for sure if he ever celebrate it after becoming Pope.
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« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2012, 10:16:33 AM »

Blessed John Paul II celebrated the Mozarabic Mass twice.
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« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2012, 12:10:15 PM »

Blessed John Paul II celebrated the Mozarabic Mass twice.

I recall when he was in Ukraine he presided as a western Hierarch.
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« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2012, 02:44:07 PM »

All catholic bishops are omni-ritual they may celebrate in any rite(they were the vestments of their respective rites when doing so)
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« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2012, 02:52:24 PM »

All catholic bishops are omni-ritual they may celebrate in any rite(they were the vestments of their respective rites when doing so)

Proof?
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« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2012, 04:09:13 PM »

All catholic bishops are omni-ritual

Not the Catholic ones.
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« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2012, 04:48:08 PM »

Technically, my question has been answered already; but I want to post the question and the answer here too, any case anyone can add any clarifying remarks:

Quote from: Peter J
Now, is the Pope the only one who can celebrate any rite he wants?

Quote from: Malphono
Technically, the Pope is the one person who is omni-ritual, meaning that he may celebrate in any Rite he so chooses. But of course it is rare that any Pope celebrates in other than the Roman Rite.

- http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=9122725
I'd be interested in who was the first "supreme pontiff" to celebrate in anything but the Roman rite.

St. Peter I would guess.

who was not a pontiff but an Apostle
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« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2012, 04:56:35 PM »

All catholic bishops are omni-ritual

Not the Catholic ones.

Each bishop would need to ask permission to celebrate a rite and ritual outside of his own jurisdiction.  But do we know the canons that would regulate that?  I do not.  If there are no canons to that effect then the permission would be a courtesy. 

Where is Father Deacon Lance when we need him?
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« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2012, 04:58:08 PM »

Technically, my question has been answered already; but I want to post the question and the answer here too, any case anyone can add any clarifying remarks:

Quote from: Peter J
Now, is the Pope the only one who can celebrate any rite he wants?

Quote from: Malphono
Technically, the Pope is the one person who is omni-ritual, meaning that he may celebrate in any Rite he so chooses. But of course it is rare that any Pope celebrates in other than the Roman Rite.

- http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=9122725
I'd be interested in who was the first "supreme pontiff" to celebrate in anything but the Roman rite.

St. Peter I would guess.

who was not a pontiff but an Apostle

If you like, but I think that whole Apostles-weren't-Bishops thing is just hair-splitting.
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« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2012, 06:23:04 PM »

All catholic bishops are omni-ritual

Not the Catholic ones.

Each bishop would need to ask permission to celebrate a rite and ritual outside of his own jurisdiction.  But do we know the canons that would regulate that?  I do not.  If there are no canons to that effect then the permission would be a courtesy. 

Where is Father Deacon Lance when we need him?

There aren't any canons that cover this situation as regards bishops.  Some bishops have charge of both Eastern and Latin Catholics and use a Rite other than their own out of necessity.  I would assume permission is assumed in these cases.  I also know of two bishops who were bi-ritual out of personal devotion: Archbishop Richard Cardinal Cushing and Archbishop Fulton Sheen.  I believe they both asked permission from the Melkite Patriarch.  As for omni-ritual, I don't think bishops celebrate different Rites on a whim and would be expected to have at least a basic knowledge and familiarity with the Rite plan to celebrate, as they are often busy I don't think many would have the time or inclination to learn a different one.
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« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2012, 06:27:46 PM »

All catholic bishops are omni-ritual

Not the Catholic ones.

Each bishop would need to ask permission to celebrate a rite and ritual outside of his own jurisdiction.  But do we know the canons that would regulate that?  I do not.  If there are no canons to that effect then the permission would be a courtesy. 

Where is Father Deacon Lance when we need him?

There aren't any canons that cover this situation as regards bishops.  Some bishops have charge of both Eastern and Latin Catholics and use a Rite other than their own out of necessity.  I would assume permission is assumed in these cases.  I also know of two bishops who were bi-ritual out of personal devotion: Archbishop Richard Cardinal Cushing and Archbishop Fulton Sheen.  I believe they both asked permission from the Melkite Patriarch.  As for omni-ritual, I don't think bishops celebrate different Rites on a whim and would be expected to have at least a basic knowledge and familiarity with the Rite plan to celebrate, as they are often busy I don't think many would have the time or inclination to learn a different one.

I thought this was the case but wanted to be more certain than I was about it.  Glad you are around to look in now and then.  Thanks.

Blessed Lent,

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« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2012, 06:47:17 PM »

Are there any pictures of Archbisop Sheen celebrating the Divine Liturgy?
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« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2012, 06:52:58 PM »

« Last Edit: March 31, 2012, 06:56:41 PM by Deacon Lance » Logged

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« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2012, 11:12:47 PM »

Just found this video:
http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2011/12/ordinations-new-russian-greek-catholic.html

Bishop Jospeh, Latin Catholic Bishop of Novosibirsk and Ordinary for Greek Catholcis in Russia, is wearing Byzantine vestments.  He wisley deferred the ordination to Bishop Milan of Mukachevo, however.
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« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2012, 05:57:52 PM »



I remember that he was the speaker at a banquet held by the local CYO if memory serves me right, which was held at our church's hall - which was the largest at that time in the region and which catered to the public at that time. This was in the late 1960's I think.

Bishop Sheen was quite the gentleman, he went into the kitchen and gave the woman there a few words and a blessing and left all with warm feelings. Since this was only about 25 years past the bitter split in the parish and anti-Roman feelings still ran hot and strong among the faithful it was all the more remarkable how humble he was and how people responded to him. God does work in mysterious ways.
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« Reply #22 on: April 01, 2012, 05:59:36 PM »

Just found this video:
http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2011/12/ordinations-new-russian-greek-catholic.html

Bishop Jospeh, Latin Catholic Bishop of Novosibirsk and Ordinary for Greek Catholcis in Russia, is wearing Byzantine vestments.  He wisley deferred the ordination to Bishop Milan of Mukachevo, however.

I know that Bishop Milan did ordain this priest as stated, but I am not convinced that the full text of the article is quite accurate and reflect some wishful thinking on the part of the writers.
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« Reply #23 on: April 01, 2012, 06:03:28 PM »

All catholic bishops are omni-ritual

Not the Catholic ones.

Each bishop would need to ask permission to celebrate a rite and ritual outside of his own jurisdiction.  But do we know the canons that would regulate that?  I do not.  If there are no canons to that effect then the permission would be a courtesy.  

Where is Father Deacon Lance when we need him?

There aren't any canons that cover this situation as regards bishops.  Some bishops have charge of both Eastern and Latin Catholics and use a Rite other than their own out of necessity.  I would assume permission is assumed in these cases.  I also know of two bishops who were bi-ritual out of personal devotion: Archbishop Richard Cardinal Cushing and Archbishop Fulton Sheen.  I believe they both asked permission from the Melkite Patriarch.  As for omni-ritual, I don't think bishops celebrate different Rites on a whim and would be expected to have at least a basic knowledge and familiarity with the Rite plan to celebrate, as they are often busy I don't think many would have the time or inclination to learn a different one.

I would be remiss (and probably I am being a bit smug so I apologize in advance) not to mention a Bishop who was bi-ritual and just maybe with less motivation than personal devotion. The former Greek Catholic eparch of Pittsburgh, Bishop Nicholas Elko was recalled by Rome from his see in the mid-1960's and returned to America some years later as a Latin rite Archbishop assigned as an auxiliary to the Latin Rite Ordinary of Cincinnati.

I have no doubt that +Cardinal Cushing and +Archbishop Sheen were men of good hearts and ones who were profoundly concerned about the historical poor treatment of Greek Catholics in the Americas by many of their brother Bishops.
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« Reply #24 on: April 01, 2012, 06:03:55 PM »



Argh, get a beard on, good sir.
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« Reply #25 on: April 01, 2012, 06:34:40 PM »

That is Archbishop Fulton Sheen, a Latin Catholic bishop, so no beard is quite normal.
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« Reply #26 on: April 01, 2012, 06:36:58 PM »

That is Archbishop Fulton Sheen, a Latin Catholic bishop, so no beard is quite normal.

Understood, and I don't wish to give the impression that a beard is definitive of a true priesthood or whatever -- it just looks a bit wrong without one.
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« Reply #27 on: April 01, 2012, 06:40:38 PM »

I would be remiss (and probably I am being a bit smug so I apologize in advance) not to mention a Bishop who was bi-ritual and just maybe with less motivation than personal devotion. The former Greek Catholic eparch of Pittsburgh, Bishop Nicholas Elko was recalled by Rome from his see in the mid-1960's and returned to America some years later as a Latin rite Archbishop assigned as an auxiliary to the Latin Rite Ordinary of Cincinnati.

I didn't include him as he wasn't bi-ritual.  Rome only let him come back to America with the understanding that he was transferred to the Latin Church and wasn't allowed to use the Byzantine rite.  
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« Reply #28 on: April 01, 2012, 06:54:00 PM »

I would be remiss (and probably I am being a bit smug so I apologize in advance) not to mention a Bishop who was bi-ritual and just maybe with less motivation than personal devotion. The former Greek Catholic eparch of Pittsburgh, Bishop Nicholas Elko was recalled by Rome from his see in the mid-1960's and returned to America some years later as a Latin rite Archbishop assigned as an auxiliary to the Latin Rite Ordinary of Cincinnati.

I didn't include him as he wasn't bi-ritual.  Rome only let him come back to America with the understanding that he was transferred to the Latin Church and wasn't allowed to use the Byzantine rite.  

I know people who knew Bishop Elko well and say that what was done to him, and is being done to his memory is a terrible terrible injustice.

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« Reply #29 on: April 01, 2012, 07:17:08 PM »

He was before my time, and I too have heard the same so I have no basis for any opinion - other than to state the history. It is true though that in the 1950's when he succeeded his deposed predecessor, he was accused of Latinizing the BCC with a passion - removing iconostases, redecorating venerable pioneer parishes in a sort of Ruthenian Maronite mode etc.... I do suppose that for many of the lay people who had stayed with the BCC through the bitter divides of the 1930's and 1940's and at the height of the McCarthyite period in America that many on the local level may very well have encouraged these actions in an effort to be more clearly "American" so as to distinguish themselves from their neighbors and relatives who converted to Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #30 on: April 01, 2012, 09:11:26 PM »

He was before my time, and I too have heard the same so I have no basis for any opinion - other than to state the history. It is true though that in the 1950's when he succeeded his deposed predecessor, he was accused of Latinizing the BCC with a passion - removing iconostases, redecorating venerable pioneer parishes in a sort of Ruthenian Maronite mode etc.... I do suppose that for many of the lay people who had stayed with the BCC through the bitter divides of the 1930's and 1940's and at the height of the McCarthyite period in America that many on the local level may very well have encouraged these actions in an effort to be more clearly "American" so as to distinguish themselves from their neighbors and relatives who converted to Orthodoxy.

I don't know either but to a man, those priests that I've spoken to over the decades, who were trained under his watch say that if it were not for Bishop Elko they would never have learned to or been encouraged to serve the Presanctified Liturgy, for example.  That does not sound like an all-out Latinizer to me.  God only knows what happened in reality but there are some exceptionally ugly bones in the bone-closet if only a tiny fraction of the rumors are true.  It is very sad and I don't know if we'll survive it actually and that makes me even sadder.  But...I hope and pray we do.

M.
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« Reply #31 on: April 01, 2012, 10:15:40 PM »

Has any pope celebrated an Ambrosian or a Mozarabic mass?

Pope Paul VI was Ambrosian Rite before he became Pope. I don't know for sure if he ever celebrate it after becoming Pope.
Yes, interesting how the Ambrosians, Italo-Greeks and Italo-Albanians don't have their own bishop of Rome.  The Vatican has installed a Maronite, Melkite, Syriac and Latin in Antioch, St. Peter's first see.
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« Reply #32 on: April 01, 2012, 10:35:41 PM »

Yes, interesting how the Ambrosians, Italo-Greeks and Italo-Albanians don't have their own bishop of Rome.  The Vatican has installed a Maronite, Melkite, Syriac and Latin in Antioch, St. Peter's first see.

There is no Latin patriarch of Antioch.  The Maronites erected their patriarchate all on their own. Portions of the Greek and Syrian Orthodox of Antioch united with Rome all on their own.  You let me know when the Western Rite Orthodox have their own diocese and bishop.
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« Reply #33 on: April 01, 2012, 11:18:56 PM »

It's funny how he says that, when there is a Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch, and a Syriac Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch, both in, ahem, St. Peter's first see. If we're counting. You see how that happens?  Roll Eyes There is also a Greek Orthodox Church of Alexandria, and a Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria (or just Coptic Orthodox Church as it's usually called). Same thing, though. Gee, we could go a lot of rounds if you wanted to.

I forgot, the game is "It's okay when Orthodox do it, and not okay when Roman Catholics do it."
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« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2012, 01:10:39 AM »

It's funny how he says that, when there is a Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch, and a Syriac Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch, both in, ahem, St. Peter's first see. If we're counting. You see how that happens?  Roll Eyes There is also a Greek Orthodox Church of Alexandria, and a Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria (or just Coptic Orthodox Church as it's usually called). Same thing, though. Gee, we could go a lot of rounds if you wanted to.

I forgot, the game is "It's okay when Orthodox do it, and not okay when Roman Catholics do it."

No, you seem to be of the opinion that there is no schism between the OO and EO.  There is, however, such a schism.  There is no schism between the Eastern and Western Catholic churches.
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« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2012, 01:42:32 AM »

There is also a Greek Orthodox Church of Alexandria, and a Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria (or just Coptic Orthodox Church as it's usually called). Same thing, though.

I highly doubt that the situation wouldn't remain the same for long if we united.
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« Reply #36 on: April 02, 2012, 05:00:40 AM »

Just found this video:
http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2011/12/ordinations-new-russian-greek-catholic.html

Bishop Jospeh, Latin Catholic Bishop of Novosibirsk and Ordinary for Greek Catholcis in Russia, is wearing Byzantine vestments.  He wisley deferred the ordination to Bishop Milan of Mukachevo, however.

Apostolic Exarchs of Macedonia, since the creation of the Exarchate in 2001, have been Latin Catholic Bishops of Skopje at the same time, so they are bi-ritual too.
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« Reply #37 on: April 02, 2012, 07:00:14 AM »

All catholic bishops are omni-ritual

Not the Catholic ones.

Each bishop would need to ask permission to celebrate a rite and ritual outside of his own jurisdiction.  But do we know the canons that would regulate that?  I do not.  If there are no canons to that effect then the permission would be a courtesy. 

Where is Father Deacon Lance when we need him?

There aren't any canons that cover this situation as regards bishops.  Some bishops have charge of both Eastern and Latin Catholics and use a Rite other than their own out of necessity.  I would assume permission is assumed in these cases.  I also know of two bishops who were bi-ritual out of personal devotion: Archbishop Richard Cardinal Cushing and Archbishop Fulton Sheen.  I believe they both asked permission from the Melkite Patriarch.  As for omni-ritual, I don't think bishops celebrate different Rites on a whim and would be expected to have at least a basic knowledge and familiarity with the Rite plan to celebrate, as they are often busy I don't think many would have the time or inclination to learn a different one.

Hm, I always thought that all thr Bishops has the RIGHT to do so, but for the reasons you said, chose not to do so.

Also, if my memory serves me, all bishops are, by defauly, birituals because of the fact that all Latin Bishops are ALSO eastern bishops, because the Russian Catholic's have no dedicated Bishops of their own, and as such the Latin Bishops are alsso their bishops
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« Reply #38 on: April 02, 2012, 09:52:37 AM »

All catholic bishops are omni-ritual

Not the Catholic ones.

Each bishop would need to ask permission to celebrate a rite and ritual outside of his own jurisdiction.  But do we know the canons that would regulate that?  I do not.  If there are no canons to that effect then the permission would be a courtesy. 

Where is Father Deacon Lance when we need him?

There aren't any canons that cover this situation as regards bishops.  Some bishops have charge of both Eastern and Latin Catholics and use a Rite other than their own out of necessity.  I would assume permission is assumed in these cases.  I also know of two bishops who were bi-ritual out of personal devotion: Archbishop Richard Cardinal Cushing and Archbishop Fulton Sheen.  I believe they both asked permission from the Melkite Patriarch.  As for omni-ritual, I don't think bishops celebrate different Rites on a whim and would be expected to have at least a basic knowledge and familiarity with the Rite plan to celebrate, as they are often busy I don't think many would have the time or inclination to learn a different one.

Hm, I always thought that all thr Bishops has the RIGHT to do so, but for the reasons you said, chose not to do so.

Also, if my memory serves me, all bishops are, by defauly, birituals because of the fact that all Latin Bishops are ALSO eastern bishops, because the Russian Catholic's have no dedicated Bishops of their own, and as such the Latin Bishops are alsso their bishops

Citation please? (Unless you meant to say "some Latin Bishops".)
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« Reply #39 on: April 02, 2012, 09:55:02 AM »

Yes, interesting how the Ambrosians, Italo-Greeks and Italo-Albanians don't have their own bishop of Rome.  The Vatican has installed a Maronite, Melkite, Syriac and Latin in Antioch, St. Peter's first see.

There is no Latin patriarch of Antioch.  The Maronites erected their patriarchate all on their own. Portions of the Greek and Syrian Orthodox of Antioch united with Rome all on their own.  You let me know when the Western Rite Orthodox have their own diocese and bishop.

Hmmm, I think this is one of the strangest requests I've heard here (and that's really saying something).
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« Reply #40 on: April 02, 2012, 10:04:29 AM »

All catholic bishops are omni-ritual

Not the Catholic ones.

Each bishop would need to ask permission to celebrate a rite and ritual outside of his own jurisdiction.  But do we know the canons that would regulate that?  I do not.  If there are no canons to that effect then the permission would be a courtesy. 

Where is Father Deacon Lance when we need him?

There aren't any canons that cover this situation as regards bishops.  Some bishops have charge of both Eastern and Latin Catholics and use a Rite other than their own out of necessity.  I would assume permission is assumed in these cases.  I also know of two bishops who were bi-ritual out of personal devotion: Archbishop Richard Cardinal Cushing and Archbishop Fulton Sheen.  I believe they both asked permission from the Melkite Patriarch.  As for omni-ritual, I don't think bishops celebrate different Rites on a whim and would be expected to have at least a basic knowledge and familiarity with the Rite plan to celebrate, as they are often busy I don't think many would have the time or inclination to learn a different one.

Hm, I always thought that all thr Bishops has the RIGHT to do so, but for the reasons you said, chose not to do so.

Also, if my memory serves me, all bishops are, by defauly, birituals because of the fact that all Latin Bishops are ALSO eastern bishops, because the Russian Catholic's have no dedicated Bishops of their own, and as such the Latin Bishops are alsso their bishops

Citation please? (Unless you meant to say "some Latin Bishops".)
with pleasure
http://www.cnewa.us/default.aspx?ID=77&IndexView&pagetypeID=9&sitecode=US&pageno=1
Quote
All of them fall under the jurisdiction of the local Latin bishops.
and with that, the extention is(which i cannot quickly cite, just through my learnings and practice of my life as a RC) that the latin bishops ARE the russian bishops. for example, if one was to transfer sui iuris churches, the russian catholic would ask their bishop, Cardinal Weurl for example, to transfer to the latin rite. They would also as Cardnial Weurl for permission to accpt them into the latin church
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« Reply #41 on: April 02, 2012, 10:14:59 AM »

It's funny how he says that, when there is a Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch, and a Syriac Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch, both in, ahem, St. Peter's first see. If we're counting. You see how that happens?  Roll Eyes There is also a Greek Orthodox Church of Alexandria, and a Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria (or just Coptic Orthodox Church as it's usually called). Same thing, though. Gee, we could go a lot of rounds if you wanted to.

I forgot, the game is "It's okay when Orthodox do it, and not okay when Roman Catholics do it."

Apples and oranges since the EO and OO are not in communion.
But if you look at the formal talks, #1 on everyone's list of practical issues if communion is restored is the reintegration of the Alexandrian and Antiochian Patriarchates--that is, both EO and OO are working under the assumption that if we become one Church there will be a single Patriarch of Alexandria and a single Patriarch of Antioch (after a possible period of adjustment--the most likely scenario is both Patriarchs would serve until one reposed, and then the surviving Patriarch would become the only Patriarch for all Orthodox in the region, with a single successor when he himself reposes).
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« Reply #42 on: April 02, 2012, 10:23:58 AM »

All catholic bishops are omni-ritual

Not the Catholic ones.

Each bishop would need to ask permission to celebrate a rite and ritual outside of his own jurisdiction.  But do we know the canons that would regulate that?  I do not.  If there are no canons to that effect then the permission would be a courtesy. 

Where is Father Deacon Lance when we need him?

There aren't any canons that cover this situation as regards bishops.  Some bishops have charge of both Eastern and Latin Catholics and use a Rite other than their own out of necessity.  I would assume permission is assumed in these cases.  I also know of two bishops who were bi-ritual out of personal devotion: Archbishop Richard Cardinal Cushing and Archbishop Fulton Sheen.  I believe they both asked permission from the Melkite Patriarch.  As for omni-ritual, I don't think bishops celebrate different Rites on a whim and would be expected to have at least a basic knowledge and familiarity with the Rite plan to celebrate, as they are often busy I don't think many would have the time or inclination to learn a different one.

Hm, I always thought that all thr Bishops has the RIGHT to do so, but for the reasons you said, chose not to do so.

Also, if my memory serves me, all bishops are, by defauly, birituals because of the fact that all Latin Bishops are ALSO eastern bishops, because the Russian Catholic's have no dedicated Bishops of their own, and as such the Latin Bishops are alsso their bishops

Citation please? (Unless you meant to say "some Latin Bishops".)
with pleasure
http://www.cnewa.us/default.aspx?ID=77&IndexView&pagetypeID=9&sitecode=US&pageno=1
Quote
All of them fall under the jurisdiction of the local Latin bishops.
and with that, the extention is(which i cannot quickly cite, just through my learnings and practice of my life as a RC) that the latin bishops ARE the russian bishops. for example, if one was to transfer sui iuris churches, the russian catholic would ask their bishop, Cardinal Weurl for example, to transfer to the latin rite. They would also as Cardnial Weurl for permission to accpt them into the latin church

Alright, but I think your previous post should be amended to say "some Latin bishops" rather than all.
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« Reply #43 on: April 02, 2012, 10:27:06 AM »

All catholic bishops are omni-ritual

Not the Catholic ones.

Each bishop would need to ask permission to celebrate a rite and ritual outside of his own jurisdiction.  But do we know the canons that would regulate that?  I do not.  If there are no canons to that effect then the permission would be a courtesy.  

Where is Father Deacon Lance when we need him?

There aren't any canons that cover this situation as regards bishops.  Some bishops have charge of both Eastern and Latin Catholics and use a Rite other than their own out of necessity.  I would assume permission is assumed in these cases.  I also know of two bishops who were bi-ritual out of personal devotion: Archbishop Richard Cardinal Cushing and Archbishop Fulton Sheen.  I believe they both asked permission from the Melkite Patriarch.  As for omni-ritual, I don't think bishops celebrate different Rites on a whim and would be expected to have at least a basic knowledge and familiarity with the Rite plan to celebrate, as they are often busy I don't think many would have the time or inclination to learn a different one.

Hm, I always thought that all thr Bishops has the RIGHT to do so, but for the reasons you said, chose not to do so.

Also, if my memory serves me, all bishops are, by defauly, birituals because of the fact that all Latin Bishops are ALSO eastern bishops, because the Russian Catholic's have no dedicated Bishops of their own, and as such the Latin Bishops are alsso their bishops

Citation please? (Unless you meant to say "some Latin Bishops".)
with pleasure
http://www.cnewa.us/default.aspx?ID=77&IndexView&pagetypeID=9&sitecode=US&pageno=1
Quote
All of them fall under the jurisdiction of the local Latin bishops.
and with that, the extention is(which i cannot quickly cite, just through my learnings and practice of my life as a RC) that the latin bishops ARE the russian bishops. for example, if one was to transfer sui iuris churches, the russian catholic would ask their bishop, Cardinal Weurl for example, to transfer to the latin rite. They would also as Cardnial Weurl for permission to accpt them into the latin church

Alright, but I think your previous post should be amended to say "some Latin bishops" rather than all.
except, due to the lack of hierarchy of the Russian Greek Catholic Church, even in Russia, it is all latin bishops, even though the majority of them have no RGCs under them. the mjaoirty of them never worry about this, because there is no NEED to, but doesnt change the fact that they are.

and ill search through canon law when i get home, im in class now
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« Reply #44 on: April 02, 2012, 10:35:08 AM »

Yes, interesting how the Ambrosians, Italo-Greeks and Italo-Albanians don't have their own bishop of Rome.  The Vatican has installed a Maronite, Melkite, Syriac and Latin in Antioch, St. Peter's first see.

There is no Latin patriarch of Antioch.

Ah, how could I have forgotten.  History begins with Vatican II.

Maybe some would prefer "the Vatican had installed."  Changes not a thing: the Vatican usurped powers not its own in a patriarchate not its own.  By the canons of the Ecumenical Councils, a crime worthy of deposition.  A power the self-titled "supreme pontiff" stills claims today, and can "re-activate" said, or should I say "the so called"?, Latin patriarchate of Antioch.

The Maronites erected their patriarchate all on their own.
Not quite.
Quote
The official title is Patriarcha Antiochenus Maronitarum. The Maronite patriarch shares the title of Antioch with three other Catholic patriarchs — the Melchite, the Syrian Catholic, and the Latin (titular) — one schismatical (Orthodox), and one heretical (Syrian Jacobite). The question will be considered later on, whether, apart from the concession of the Holy See, the Maronite patriarch can allege historical right to the title of Antioch....The Maronites insist, affirming that St. John Maro must have been Patriarch of Antioch because his works present him under that title. The works of John Maro referred to are an exposition of the Liturgy of St. James and a treatise on the Faith. The former is published by Joseph Aloysius Assemani in his "Codex Liturgicus" and certainly bears the name of John Maro, but the present writer has elsewhere shown that this alleged commentary of St. John Maro is no other than the famous commentary of Dionysius bar-Salibi, a Monophysite author of the twelfth century, with mutilations, additions, and accommodations to suit the changes by which the Maronites have endeavoured to make the Syriac Liturgy resemble the Roman (Dionysius Bar Salibi, "expositio liturgiæ", ed. Labourt, pref.). The treatise on the Faith is not likely to be any more authentic than the liturgical work: it bears a remarkable resemblance to a theological treatise of Leontius of Byzantium, and should therefore, very probably, be referred to the second half of the sixth century and the first half of the seventh — a period much earlier than that which the Maronites assign to St. John Maro. Besides, it contains nothing about Monothelitism — which, in fact, did not yet exist. John Maro, we must therefore conclude, is a very problematic personality; if he existed at all, it was as a simple monk, not by any means as a Melchite Patriarch of Antioch.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09683c.htm

Quote
This claim is historically and traditionally unfounded....Whatever the case may be, the title "Patriarch of Antioch" used by Maronite patriarchs is arbitrary and not sanctioned by ecclesiastical canon or tradition.
The Maronites in History By Matti Moosa
http://books.google.com/books?id=8Ogp94y8CJgC&pg=PA265&lpg=PA265&dq=maronite+title+patriarch+of+antioch&source=bl&ots=CWzyTiTkqD&sig=pWDScvyDun5P0T0so5SaWO6DfWc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ph15T_iTMs-9gAe7vfntDg&ved=0CF8Q6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=maronite%20title%20patriarch%20of%20antioch&f=false

Portions of the Greek and Syrian Orthodox of Antioch united with Rome all on their own.

Yes, and without the persecution, government coercion, fraud and duplicity that usually come with these "unions."  Hence why we don't have a lot of the problems Ukraine and Slovakia has.  It does not change, however, "legitimizing" deposed prelates as patriarchs of Antioch: the pallium has no such power derived from SS. Peter and Paul at Antioch.

You let me know when the Western Rite Orthodox have their own diocese and bishop.
1898:the Russian Holy Governing Synod, having approved a Western Rite in 1869 and established the cathedral parish in Prague in the 1870's, organizes Western Rite Diocese of Moravia and Silesia, part of its moves to exert jurisdiction in Austria Hungary, the Church having jurisdiction, the Church of Bukowina, tacitly allowing it, given Austria (and particularly) Hungarian persecution of the Orthodox (particularly converts fleeing the Vatican) The Diocese was part of, and stagnated because of, the Orthodox response to Old Catholic movement (many of the most enthusiastic Orthodox for a Western Orthodox Church channeled support-and potential converts-into the Altkatholische churches.  We learned from that mistake.  The movement picked up steam only after WWI, when religious freedom became  a reality in Czechoslovakia, and a contingent of the Czech equivalent of the PNC came under and was received by the Patriarchate of Serbia, who consecrated the bishop of Moravia, St. Gorazd.  When the Church in Transcarpathia united with it, the Ruthenian returnees to Orthodoxy overwhelmed it and sometime in the 30's the the Church as whole became Eastern rite.  The Church was destroyed by the Nazis in the martyrdom of St. Gorazd, the remnants resurrecting as the EO Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia (ironically, the Transcarpatian Orthodox having been joined to the Patriarchate of Moscow).  The Nazis also took care of the Western Rite Diocese of Poland, formed when Bishop Alexis of Grodno received the Polish Catholic Nation Church in 1926 (one parish of which survived the war).  Why do you ask?
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