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Author Topic: RC/EO Relations, 1009-1054  (Read 737 times) Average Rating: 0
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Justin Kissel
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« on: March 29, 2012, 03:54:21 PM »

I've read that the Pat. of Constantinople removed the Pope from the diptychs in 1009, and we all know what happened in 1054... but what things of importance (relating to unity/division) happened in between those years?
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« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2012, 04:00:40 PM »

I've read that the Pat. of Constantinople removed the Pope from the diptychs in 1009, and we all know what happened in 1054... but what things of importance (relating to unity/division) happened in between those years?
The Norman conquest of Southern Italy.
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« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2012, 04:01:52 PM »

I've read that the Pat. of Constantinople removed the Pope from the diptychs in 1009, and we all know what happened in 1054... but what things of importance (relating to unity/division) happened in between those years?

this book by papadakis has a very nice explanation of how that all happened:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Christian-East-Rise-Papacy/dp/0881410578
« Last Edit: March 29, 2012, 04:02:11 PM by serb1389 » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2012, 04:10:26 PM »

"Pagan" reaction in Poland
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« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2012, 04:20:15 PM »

I've read that the Pat. of Constantinople removed the Pope from the diptychs in 1009, and we all know what happened in 1054... but what things of importance (relating to unity/division) happened in between those years?

this book by papadakis has a very nice explanation of how that all happened:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Christian-East-Rise-Papacy/dp/0881410578

Just looked at the amazon link.  This shows the book dealing with the period 1071-1453 A.D, not the period from 1009-1054 A.D.  that Asteriktos asked about.  Does the author provide material relating to that period, too?  There's another book listed, by Andrew Louth, further down on that page which appears to deal with the period 681-1071 A.D.--maybe Asteriktos should look at that one?
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« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2012, 04:36:17 PM »

I've read that the Pat. of Constantinople removed the Pope from the diptychs in 1009, and we all know what happened in 1054... but what things of importance (relating to unity/division) happened in between those years?

this book by papadakis has a very nice explanation of how that all happened:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Christian-East-Rise-Papacy/dp/0881410578

I love Papadakis' books. Thank you, Father!
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« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2012, 04:40:34 PM »

I've read that the Pat. of Constantinople removed the Pope from the diptychs in 1009, and we all know what happened in 1054... but what things of importance (relating to unity/division) happened in between those years?

this book by papadakis has a very nice explanation of how that all happened:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Christian-East-Rise-Papacy/dp/0881410578

Just looked at the amazon link.  This shows the book dealing with the period 1071-1453 A.D, not the period from 1009-1054 A.D.  that Asteriktos asked about.  Does the author provide material relating to that period, too?  There's another book listed, by Andrew Louth, further down on that page which appears to deal with the period 681-1071 A.D.--maybe Asteriktos should look at that one?

Papadakis does deal with what was going on before that period. The book by Fr. Andrew Louth is also okay. Sir Steven Runciman's "The Eastern Schism" also deals with the time period.

I must say, though, that neither the removal of the pope's name in 1009, nor the "event" of 1054, were registered as big deals at the time. The 1054 episode wasn't even mentioned at a reunion council in Constantinople in 1098, for instance. (It was an invalid bull Cardinal Humber put on the altar of Haghia Sophia anyway. Everyone knew Pope Leo IX was dead at the time. If we speak of the later "lifting of anathemas," perhaps the only real anathema was made by Patriarch Michael Cerularius. But that would've been made, IIRC, only against Humbert and his cronies. Hardly anything worth lifting.)
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« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2012, 04:47:49 PM »

I've read that the Pat. of Constantinople removed the Pope from the diptychs in 1009, and we all know what happened in 1054... but what things of importance (relating to unity/division) happened in between those years?

this book by papadakis has a very nice explanation of how that all happened:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Christian-East-Rise-Papacy/dp/0881410578

Just looked at the amazon link.  This shows the book dealing with the period 1071-1453 A.D, not the period from 1009-1054 A.D.  that Asteriktos asked about.  Does the author provide material relating to that period, too?  There's another book listed, by Andrew Louth, further down on that page which appears to deal with the period 681-1071 A.D.--maybe Asteriktos should look at that one?

that's why the book is awesome, it deals with the periods beforehand, how they all inter-worked, and then does an awesome historical presentation of the actual years listed, with even some "aftermath" information. 

It definitely answers the questions of the OP.  The Andrew Louth book didn't go into the details I would have liked to have had from that period, especially concerning the decline in relations between Rome & the east. 
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« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2012, 04:51:19 PM »

I've read that the Pat. of Constantinople removed the Pope from the diptychs in 1009, and we all know what happened in 1054... but what things of importance (relating to unity/division) happened in between those years?

this book by papadakis has a very nice explanation of how that all happened:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Christian-East-Rise-Papacy/dp/0881410578

Just looked at the amazon link.  This shows the book dealing with the period 1071-1453 A.D, not the period from 1009-1054 A.D.  that Asteriktos asked about.  Does the author provide material relating to that period, too?  There's another book listed, by Andrew Louth, further down on that page which appears to deal with the period 681-1071 A.D.--maybe Asteriktos should look at that one?

that's why the book is awesome, it deals with the periods beforehand, how they all inter-worked, and then does an awesome historical presentation of the actual years listed, with even some "aftermath" information. 

It definitely answers the questions of the OP.  The Andrew Louth book didn't go into the details I would have liked to have had from that period, especially concerning the decline in relations between Rome & the east. 

Okay.  Thanks!!  Wink
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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2012, 04:51:54 PM »

Thanks! Several books have been added to my amazon cart  Smiley
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« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2012, 05:34:20 PM »

You guys are saying 1009, but the year that comes to my mind is 1014. Maybe I'm just confused/forgetful -- did something happen in 1014?
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« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2012, 06:04:08 PM »

You guys are saying 1009, but the year that comes to my mind is 1014. Maybe I'm just confused/forgetful -- did something happen in 1014?

1014 sounds better to me. IIRC, 1009 was the untimely death of Pope Sylvester II. Everything went down hill in the West after Otto III's premature death.
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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2012, 06:56:28 PM »

It's possible. A google search I just did brought up stuff having to do with a break in communion in 1009, but that of course doesn't make it so.
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« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2012, 08:15:43 PM »

I've read that the Pat. of Constantinople removed the Pope from the diptychs in 1009, and we all know what happened in 1054... but what things of importance (relating to unity/division) happened in between those years?

this book by papadakis has a very nice explanation of how that all happened:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Christian-East-Rise-Papacy/dp/0881410578

What a coincidence, I bought that book just this morning at my parish bookstore.
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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2012, 09:50:00 PM »

Regarding 1009 vs. 1014... from The Orthodox Church by Met. Kallistos:

Quote
At the beginning of the eleventh century there was fresh trouble over the filioque. The Papacy at last adopted the addition: at the coronation of Emperor Henry II at Rome in 1014, the Creed was sung in its interpolated form. Five years earlier, in 1009, the newly-elected Pope Sergius IV sent a letter to Constantinople which may have contained the filioque, although this is not certain. Whatever the reason, the Patriarch of Constantinople, also called Sergius, did not include the new Pope’s name in the Diptychs: these are lists, kept by each Patriarch, which contain the names of the other Patriarchs, living and departed, whom he recognizes as orthodox. The Diptychs are a visible sign of the unity of the Church, and deliberately to omit a man’s name from them is tantamount to a declaration that one is not in communion with him. After 1009 the Pope’s name did not appear again in the Diptychs of Constantinople; technically, therefore, the Churches of Rome and Constantinople were out of communion from that date. But it would be unwise to press this technicality too far. Diptychs were frequently incomplete, and so do not form an infallible guide to Church relations. The Constantinopolitan lists before 1009 often lacked the Pope’s name, simply because new Popes at their accession failed to notify the east. The omission in 1009 aroused no comment at Rome, and even at Constantinople men quickly forgot why and when the Pope’s name had first been dropped from the Diptychs.

Perhaps this action having to do with the filioque is why the year 1014 was popping to mind?
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« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2012, 10:45:58 PM »

Blessed are you, Cavaradossi. And blessed is your church book store. You are in for some very dry, but exceedingly interesting reading.
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« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2012, 12:21:46 AM »

Blessed are you, Cavaradossi. And blessed is your church book store. You are in for some very dry, but exceedingly interesting reading.

Well, if it's any indication, I bought the book simply because I have already read Papadakis' Crisis in Byzantium, and thought that it was quite an enjoyable read. The only types of books that I find a chore to read are books where I constantly have to read passages over and over again, like Vladimir Lossky's The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church, which after six months I have yet to finish. I suppose that I don't have the philosophy chops for zooming through books like that one or like Metropolitan John Zizioulas' Being as Communion, unlike a certain poster on this board whose  name suggests that he is composed of two vectors of unit length, the dot product of which is zero. Smiley
« Last Edit: March 30, 2012, 12:39:08 AM by Cavaradossi » Logged

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